How Below Average Pastors Can Become Good Leaders

0:00Welcome to the Carey Appet Show, your place for news, views and values you can trust, and relationship insights you need. Now here's Carey Appet. I would agree with your friends. Welcome to the Carey Appet Show. If you need any support in helping you or your family, your ministry, live in a agreement with your divine design, go to the legacyinstitute.com where we have resources for you and a lot of tools that you can use. Hey, we're going to be talking about pastors today and right up front I always want to remind you how important the role of pastor is in communicating the gospel, but also leading the shepherding of flock and being a good leader is important. I ran across an article in the Christian post titled How Below Average Pastors Become Good Leaders. So carefully, I want to address this. This is not because I think all pastors are below average.

1:01I think most pastors are doing an incredible job. But if you're a leader as I am and many people I know, many pastors I work with, we want to improve. We do not want to be below average. And yet we know that a below average pastor, someone who's not doing a good job of leading can create a problem for the body of Christ and we don't want that either. The author of that article is joining me right now. Sam Reiner is with us. He is actually one of the people. He's the president of church answers. You can find them at churchanswers.com. I recommend you go there because you'll be thrilled at what the resources that they're providing for churches. They have a team of experts. They have vocational ministry experience. They have and they work with churches of all sizes, which I find really, really great. They do assessment tools and so on and so on. So I want to welcome to the show. Sam Reiner, welcome to the show. It's great to have you and thank you for the work you're doing at church answers.

2:01Well thank you, Carrie. It is good to join you and honored to be on the show with you. Well thank you. And so your father is the one who actually started that organization, correct? Yeah, way back in the day, 1988. For some that may not seem so far away for others. It may. I don't know. I'll let you determine that. But we've been doing this a long time. We provide practical church leadership tools, content, assessments, consultations, coaching. We do that for the church and we're glad to serve a lot of pastors and church leaders. You know, pastors need a place they can go to get some fine tuning, but also continuing education and it's not always possible to do that. I'm going back to school or adding another degree. And yet you can easily take a quick course and do an assessment is my staff healthy. How are we training our deacons? You and I talked about this ahead of time. Just so many tools that you can provide. So thank you for that. Let's jump to this article. Of course, the title jumped out at me because I want to see all pastors thriving.

3:04I want the church to have a reputation of excellence in in the world, regardless of where people are. And I don't know. Why don't you tell me what motivated this article? Me, me motivated the article. I've been there. So I've been in ministry. I was below average. That's how I got started. I was a below average pastor. That's the first sentence in the article. It is. Yeah, I got started when I was 24 years old. That was 22 years ago now. I think I've learned a few things since then. Here's the thing. If you have, what's average? If you are into statistics, average means that, hey, that's typical. You're going to have some that are above average. You're going to have some that are below average. I'm like you. I want every pastor doing a good job, every pastor thriving. The reality is is sometimes when you get started, sometimes when you don't know what you're doing or sometimes you're just having a bad season, we've all been there. You can't become deficient in certain areas. I just wanted to address this idea that often goes on addressed.

4:08Everyone talks about going from good to great, from average to excellent. Awesome. Let's do that. Some people are starting in a place where they're slightly below average, if not significantly below average. I just wanted to work through the concept myself because this was my story. I was below average, mainly because I just didn't have experience. I was young and I was a bit boneheaded and had to learn the hard way. Depending on what motivates going into ministry, generally speaking, I hear the word calling and I do believe that's so important, so legitimate, which is why I'm a big protector of the role of pastor. In particular, those who are shepherding the church and I mean pastor is a title now that gets attached to a lot of roles in the church. I think possibly that's a sad thing because we're missing out on some of those other key roles. But you say that poor decisions are the norm for some pastors and you mentioned that was you 20 years ago.

5:08You say in this article, why some pastors are below average, they lack experience, they lack emotional intelligence, they lack knowledge, leadership capacity and decision-making skills. You go on to say that you believe most pastors really want to lead their congregations in a way that honors God. I agree with you that completely. You don't get into shepherding if you're just kind of in it for yourself. Maybe that pastor is out there. If as many pastors as there are, I'm sure there are some really selfish people. I do know that there are some who've done some more things morally wrong and we know all we know about the scandals. Really, that's not what I'm talking about here though. I'm not talking about people who are morally compromised. These are not pastors that are struggling because they are in sin or committing sin against the body. You know, that's a wolf and we need to call out a wolf. What I'm talking about are pastors that are mediocre because they don't have the training the skills or the knowledge to get through what they know they need to get through.

6:11That's a different kind of below average pastor. You're not below average because you're lacking in some sort of ethical guidance. It's not a character issue. It is a competency issue and I want to talk to those pastors that maybe struggling with certain competency issues. Hear me out. We've all been there. We've all been there. Maybe you're weaker in finance and your church is struggling with money. Well, guess what? You might be making below average decisions just because you didn't study that in school. It doesn't make you a bad pastor. It just means that you need to shore up those weaknesses in that area. And saying, well, God will provide is not exactly the right answer. And he won't. Yeah, he will. And you are the provision. The pastor is the provision. Like God gave you to your church so that you will make sure that you are not in the church. You will make good decisions, right? Or bring someone on your board that can. And this is, this is why it's important. I know what I don't know and I run a nonprofit and I know what I need in the way of help

7:12around me. I'm not in a role of pastoring. And I consider that such a vital role for the times we're in a specially. We need the good news of the gospel to go far and wide, but we need churches to run well so that people will be drawn to them. They're not drawn to organizations or institutions that are fumbling and or they can sense a lack of leadership, especially strong leaders. This is something that I want all pastors to know leaders can sense other strong leaders. And so if you have an area that's weaker, oh, this is a great opportunity for you to hear some of the things that Sam wrote in this article because I think it's so important. Let's go through the list here. And you have, you say number one here, here are some things that they need to do. They stop using their calling as a shield against criticism. A divine calling doesn't guarantee leadership competence. And sometimes pastors, you know, they interpret every criticism as an attack on their calling. Let's speak to that first. Yeah, criticism is not necessarily, well, it's, it feels negative.

8:16It always feels negative, but it's not necessarily a negative thing. Because people have legitimate criticisms, sometimes you just need to know their perspective, even if they are wrong. Just because you're receiving criticism doesn't necessarily mean that the church is against you. So one of the things that pastors can be guilty of is, hey, I'm the pastor. This is my role. This is my turf. Stay off my turf. Stay off, you know, this area that I think I can control. And while I certainly respect the office being in it myself and I, you know, my church is great about showing me the respect and the deference. You're a pastor yourself. So you are. I am a pastor myself. And you know, let me tell you, I love my church. They do this well, but I am not beyond criticism. I had a deacons meeting the other day that didn't go quite as well as it should have. Deacons weren't at fault. They, they, they, I've got great deacons. And one of them came up to me afterwards, is like, yeah, that could have gone better. Let's do this next time. Now, I could have gotten defensive. I could have, I've been like, you know, kind of shielded myself with my calling.

9:18Stay on the pastor. You guys need to defer to me. I just went, yeah, you're right. We'll do that next time. And it was over with. It was done. So I do believe that a lot of pastors can be needlessly defensive or sometimes even a little oversensitive simply because you're constantly dealing with the emotions of people. And it can kind of get to you in a way. And then you can, you can outpour your empathy to the point where you kind of feel everyone's feelings. And it's harder to lead there. So you do need to make sure that you are properly receiving criticism, even some that may not be legitimately given and just kind of rolling with it a bit. If you're always shielding yourself from it, it's going to put you in a place where you're probably not going to make the right decisions. That's interesting. And completely understandable if you're always taking incoming. So hopefully you're in a healthy church where you've set up some systems where they can share something with another person who's in leadership and you come together as

10:19a team. So everything is not just hitting the one pastor, right? And I think that could be helpful too. You mentioned number two here. Good pastors should seek correction and guidance from proven leaders in the church. And you say the fastest way to remain a bad leader is to become defensive whenever someone identifies a weakness. And this goes along with the same idea that we were just talking about, right? Instead of getting defensive, you say, and I think this line is so good, pastors who want to improve become curious. They ask questions. They listen for patterns and resist the urge to justify themselves. And I would say this about all leaders. We all need to do this. But this was just so well said. Yeah. Curiosity is one of your can be one of your greatest strengths and one of your greatest outs. If someone has something to say, find out why. If someone has something to say, whatever it may be, learn the background of it. Where did this come from? Get into an investigation mode.

11:21People, I, listen, I love to talk. That's why God called me in the ministry. I have a lot of words and a lot of opinions and I was glad to share them. If I wasn't a pastor, I'd be that guy at the church. Well, here's the thing. This is my personality. There's some people in your church that they process by talking. So let them talk, figure it out, get curious just because someone is saying something doesn't mean that it's gossip because it doesn't mean that they may be lying or trying to be hurtful either. Their motive may be pure, but you don't know until you ask until you figure it out. Now for the person that truly is trying to be malicious, well, the Bible has some very clear guidelines as to what we need to do in that case. But I just have to believe that the vast majority of these kinds of conversations that happen in the church are not driven by malicious intent, by bad actors in the congregation. I just think sometimes people get confused. They don't know what's going on. They kind of make up their own ideas.

12:22And the way that you solve all that is just to get curious and start talking with them and be among your people. And when you uncover something that's a little awkward or funny, laugh. Just laugh about it. And again, just roll with it. Part of being in ministry is this idea that these are your people. You're going to be around them a lot. So they're at the family. They're going to say crazy things at the Thanksgiving table. Sometimes you just got to move on. Well, and part of this is, you know, if pastors who had trusted proven leaders around them, those leaders are going to ask questions. That's what leaders do. And better to have people you trust to our leaders, either disagreeing with you or questioning it rather than going it alone. And I love that you said be amongst your people because I think the more you know your people, you don't assign motives. And if you do have that one who continually is the negative person, you will come up with a plan for them. And it will be a biblical prescription. And God will use the power of his Holy Spirit to step in and alleviate the pain from that.

13:27Don't you think Sam? Oh, yeah. I've got a sweet, sweet congregation. And I've got some people in my congregation that will say, um, pointed things to me. And the reason that they say pointed things to me is because I've been around a long time. And honestly, at my age, I'm 46, there are a lot of senior women who treat me like their son. They're done. Yeah. So I'm kind of their son. Like, I just have to realize that, you know, the 75 year old woman is going like, she loves me, but she's going to treat like, not all. But some of them would treat me like their son. And there was one conversation. I had a conversation via Facebook the other day. And this woman, I trust, she's amazing. She was like, I can't believe you said that from a pulpit. That's like heresy. Now, I could get all upset about that. And I could be, I am not a heretic. I could get all defensive or I could just go, yep, that's just so and so. And yeah, she just didn't agree with me on that one. And I'll have a laugh about it tomorrow when she's thinking a little more clearly about it. God bless her.

14:28When somebody comes to you as a pastor so much of the time, it is, there's emotion. It's full of emotion. So they have a thought. They have an issue, but the emotion is so big. The delivery is not always good. And I think that's where pastors who have experienced know this, but for the below average pastor, which, you know, I'm not saying this to anyone in particular, I just this article, how below average pastors become good leaders. This is how, and I would say for any leader in ministry in particular, this is all very required. If you want to be successful, listen, we need to take a quick break. We're talking to Sam Rayner, and he is the author of this article. And also he's involved in church answers, which is a great place to go. Well, to get help and get some answers to because they have great resources for tansers.com. We'll be right back. Do you believe your influence can make a difference? Every day, women of all ages are bringing wisdom, creativity, faith and courage into their

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17:30We've had them for a very long time and to work their doing is incredible on behalf of people and religious freedom and all those organizations you care about. So continue to pray for them and support them. We're talking about a really helpful article on how below average pastors can become good leaders. This is not a put down of pastors. This actually, for me, I have so many relationships with amazing pastors that I felt this was important to bring up because the next generation of pastors needs to get their game on. Follow those great leaders and statesmen that we've had. The church needs to come alive and all of the grace that God has for her in this generation and not wait for those other leaders to step aside. Now is the time to grow up as leaders in every form of ministry, but in particular pastors and Sam Reiner is with me. He himself is a pastor, so he understands and he also is with church answers. An organization that helps bring resources to churches. It's really a wonderful organization. So Sam, we're talking about what a pastor can do to not be below average.

18:34And one of the things you mentioned in this article is that they learn good intentions don't erase bad outcomes. What are we talking about there? Yeah, just because you had a good idea or a good motive does not mean that the fruit will always be there, right? So how many good ideas have I had that fell flat? How many things that I have said that I thought were going to resonate? So well, I just weren't received well. So a below average pastor will be defensive and give excuses for the reasons why something didn't happen the way that it should have. But a good pastor or an average pastor will say, you know what, whatever my intentions were, as good as they were, the outcome wasn't what I expected. It wasn't what I wanted and then adjust and do things differently going forward. So just because you have good intentions doesn't mean that the outcome is always going to be what you want it to be.

19:36And a below average pastor will focus more on the defensive side of, well, this wasn't my fault. While, you know, if you're average or above average, you're tending to say, well, I'm the leader. Yeah, bucks, bucks with me. That's right. Yeah, whether or not I intended this to happen, it is my responsibility as a leader. Even if it's another one of your staff and you've signed off or you like the idea, you say it is still important to take responsibility as a leader always for things happening on your watch. And you write in here, a poorly communicated decision can still create confusion. That is a big deal. So don't think because the staff has agreed together what's going on that the rest of the community understood what was to take place there or what was trying, you know, what you were doing or I would say, as you said, so well in this article, an impulsive change can still divide a congregation. And that's why pastors, you know, buy in, if you've studied leadership and many of us have, getting that buy in from your key leaders is so important. And then filtering that down before you pull the trigger on something that seems impulsive

20:39or you've lived in a bubble and you haven't talked to all those people on the outside of that decision. And you're surprised as a pastor that you didn't get that buy in. I think that's why this is so important because good intentions are not enough to erase bad outcomes, as you say. Yeah, you can be the best decision maker on the planet. But if you are unable to communicate that decision to your people, well, your ability as a decision maker is a bit irrelevant. People need to understand. Yeah. You know, and part of understanding is communication. So you may be mic making the right call. It may be brilliant. It is not brilliant to your people until they grasp it. You have to be able to communicate well. And that's where a lot of this breaks down. Frankly, most pastors know what to do. Like let's just be real. Rarely do I encounter a pastor that I coach or that we're consulting and that pastor is like, I just have no idea.

21:41I just have no idea. Like they kind of evangelism, discipleship, what the Bible says, most of them know where the breakdown occurs and where pastors can struggle is my people don't understand where I want to take them. Well, that's a communication problem. Exactly. Not a discernment problem. And it's also not rebellion, you know, then sadly in ministry and in church as well, they don't go along with it. Then they're not they're not recognizing me as the leader. They're then we'll see my anointing, my calling, and there are rebellious people and they need to just submit. Now that's not my experience. That's not where we are. I wouldn't go to a church with a pastor like that, but I have heard that used and I've heard it used in ministry too, which is unfortunate because again, it's not taking responsibility. In all relationships, we need to make sure that we are understood. And if we're not, we need to communicate better and get better at that. I think this is one of the most important things you have in this article because I think that's where all relationships break down is communication.

22:42So it's important that things are not just decided quickly, but they are decided with input from again, those strong leaders that a pastor puts around him. Here's another great one you mentioned, somebody who really wants to be a great leader stops confusing activity with progress. Oh, yeah, this is a big problem. Yeah, this is a lot of this is a problem in a lot of churches where there's a lot of movement. There's a lot of busyness. People are doing things. Because I want to serve Jesus, but those things aren't leading anywhere. So the best way I know to describe this is the difference between vision, strategy, and tactics. Vision is just beyond the horizon. A lot of leaders see it, you know, pastors see it. I know where my people need to go. Strategy is the pathway there. It's how you're going to accomplish it. And tactics are the day to day things. The steps along the path to get you there. Most churches are good at tactics. You know, the children's ministry happens every week. Most pastors have a vision where all of this break sound is the strategy.

23:46It's the how it's the pathway. And I think most of your pastors that struggle with getting their church to move forward, it's not that they don't have a vision. It's not that their church is willing to do the work. They're doing the tactics all day long. It's that connection between tactics and vision, which is the pathway of strategy. That's so good. There's another part in this article you talk about that pastors who want to not be below average. And again, my view of pastors is really high. So I'm bringing this up because I want all pastors to improve in their leadership ability and also ministry leaders. You say they shift from a discouraging posture to an encouraging one because bad church leaders become better when they stop focusing on why something can't be done. And it said, focus on how it can be done. Is that part of that strategy? Is that there is this a pastor who's worn out and their past the ability to rally the church one more time because listen friends, the amount of time and energy it takes to be a pastor. Oh my goodness.

24:46They're just a gift to the body of Christ. So thank you to all of you who are listening to your pastors. But is it it's hard to go from being discouraged to an encouraging person? It is. It is hard, but it is part of the calling. So you can't be a pessimist and be a leader. You certainly can't be a pessimist and be a pastor. Why? Because I believe that God has taken people to better places. I believe that salvation can occur with anybody that wants to be saved. I believe that the kingdom of God is being built. Yeah, the world's fallen apart. Theologically, I know that. I've read the book of Revelation. I've read the book. I know what it says, but I do know that God is going to give us victory through His Son, Jesus Christ. So let's be optimistic leaders that take people to a better place are the ones that lead from a posture of optimism. I understand the whole like what we got to be real to.

25:48Totally here. Yeah, let's not neglect reality. But if we are leading from a posture of pessimism, which means you are assuming the worst, you're going to end up taking your people to a worse place, not a better place. Yeah. And you mentioned another thing I know our time is quickly coming to a close, but you say, good leaders realize that avoiding hard decisions is still a decision. So below average pastors often confuse passivity with patients. They delay difficult conversations. They tolerate poor performance on their staff. They allow unresolved problems to grow because they want to preserve peace. But you say postponed conflict usually becomes more destructive conflict over time. I couldn't agree more with that. Oh, you can feel the tension building in your church and all that you want to do is go home and turn on the game and escape. Yeah. But you know what? That's not the right decision. Better to deal with it now. Whatever negativity is there, whatever hard decision needs to be made. Better to deal with it now before it blows up on you.

26:52And that tension will build and the longer that you let the pressure build, the blowoffs just going to be that much more. So make the tough call deal with it now so that it's not worse. Amen. And you know, again, most pastors are doing this so well. Some pastors need a little help in this. I appreciate you, Sam Rayner, for bringing this to our attention. We'll be linking all of you to this article in the Christian post and also go to church answers.com to get more answers for some of the issues that we raised today. Thank you for joining me, Sam. Thanks for having me, Carrie. It's good to be on the show. Thank you. And everyone else will see you next time. You've been listening to the Carrie Abbott show. If you'd like to listen again to today's episode or share it with a friend, simply go to the legacy institute dot com. And remember, the Carrie Abbott show is made possible by donations from friends like you. And of course, our text is deductible. If you'd like to donate today, go to the legacy institute dot com or call 425354 8517.

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