Creators V Corporations!

0:00Welcome to the Rob Life Build Show featuring Rob's revisions. I bring five decades experience in the world of comic books and entertainment. I am not some bystander watching the industry go by. I am a full-blown participant having contributed lasting memorable works to the world of comic books that have informed the business and the art of this brilliant medium. If it's happening and streaming in movies, in comic books, in games, we are talking about it. We're discussing it right here. Hey everybody and welcome to another edition of the Rob Life Build Show featuring Rob's revisions. I am your host, Rob Life Build and once again we have that a show full of comic books and pop culture because that's what we do, that's what we love. Wherever you are catching us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, I Heart Radio, Podbean, we just

1:03appreciate you tuning in, you giving us your listens, your support of the show is amazing. I just want to thank you as always over six years into this show just having the best time and because of all the different platforms we continue to add, the reach continues to expand and so I'm getting to know more of you, reading more of your comments. We're definitely going to have another mail bag to wrap up our year. Come really November, the show goes off for a break and we return early in 2027 but we are going to see the very best of what comics has to offer here in the next. But basically October to November is the last of the big giant releases that are going to define the year and by Christmas comic books isn't the movie business. We don't load up for the last three weeks of the year. Everyone is basically kind of putting their best out from now through November and there's a lot of great comics and a lot of great talents that are going to be flexing and I can't

2:08wait to see the storytelling, the visuals, everything that's going to be coming forth but just really appreciate all of the engagement and we don't stop the engagement when the show ends here. If you want to catch me all over social, I'm on X as Robert Laifeld, R-O-B-E-R-T-L-I-E-F-E-L-D. Blue check on Instagram, I'm at Rob Laifeld, R-O-B-L-I-E-F-E-L-D. You guys have been small in my name my entire year, all the vacations that Joy and I were fortunate to go on. It's the same as it was when I was a kid. People ask me my name, they look at me because when I say it, they don't know. So I immediately spell it on TikTok. I am real Rob Laifeld. I'll let you spell that. Blue check. On all four of those, on all three of those platforms, the TikTok, the Instagram and the X, there's a blue check next to my name, signifying that it is I am the real deal. I am the legitimate article that you are speaking with. I love you, replies your mentions, your messages, all of your comments.

3:12I try and interact with you guys as much as I possibly can. Thank you for all of the interaction that you give. We have a Facebook group, Rob Laifeld, Marvel, Extreme and Beyond. Myself, for a gentleman named Terry Salah, will click you through. We have a great time. I'm over there every single day. So the conversations continue and beyond this show. And every episode of this show does get a dedicated post in the Facebook, Rob Laifeld, Marvel, Extreme and Beyond group. So check those out once you listen to this show. This is your first time today. I want to prepare you that this is a discussion show. If it's your first time or if it's your 400-500 time, today is more of a discussion show. And I was able to have a great discussion, a back and forth, a conversation. It was more of a conversation show. And today's conversation is with Michelle Fife, he of Cobra. And of course, my blood strike isn't here right now. Which I show it and Michelle shows you his work.

4:14And I show you the work that I was fortunate that he did for me a few years back. Cobra is an independent book. Many of you are already familiar with it. If not, hopefully, after a day show, you go out and you buy it and you buy lots of copies. Michelle is an incredible talent. He is a gifted, beyond gifted storyteller, writer, graphic artist. I love his stylings, his art, his drawings. He did a blood strike called, many series for me called Brutalist. It's very unique, but it is very dynamic. I return to it often. I look at both Cobra as well as blood strike. He teaches me how to say Cobra. I've been calling it Cobra wrongly. And I've met Michelle in New York Comic Con several years back. He was kind enough to give me a page from the blood strike Brutalist, which I truly cherish and I adore. One of the reasons that I was in a hurry to have him on the show is because he wrote something

5:17just last week. He made a public post on his Instagram and on his Facebook and it really touched me. It really reached me. I would say it affected me. It affected me and you'll hear me when I share it with him. But I want to preface all of it here because I want to read the statement in its entirety before we jump in. He posted early September. He said, this is from Michelle Fife, the artist writer, creator of Cobra. He also did a great GI Joe, Sierra Madre, is that it? And my blood strike Brutalist. Everybody in the business digs Michelle's work. He's ridiculously talented. And so I've been following him all these many years. He posts. I found myself in a comic book store asking for the latest issue of a serialized independent comic. It's a long standing title from the 80s made by generational talents. But the young clerk had no idea what I was talking about. Zero clue.

6:17Didn't ring any bells. I was stunned. Michelle writes, this was an indie staple at the very least and I felt a little deflated. You're right. I shouldn't hang my disappointment on this one clueless person from this one store in the middle of nowhere. But it got me thinking about the lifespan of comic books not owned or backed by huge companies. It's a pretty unique period that we're in where the breadth of quasi modern alternative works are now approaching legacy stages. Works that deserve to be enjoyed, studied, remembered. Sure, select small publishers always keep certain properties in print, but it's more than merely having shelf presence. It's about being in the conversation. Being talked about outside the corporate arena, the attention industry is Brutal. Who are the custodians of this culture? Who will beat the drum of a creator owned comics in defiance of an expiration date? Okay. That's it. There were many responses both between Instagram and Facebook of people weighing in. When I read that, I immediately touched off all manner of different feelings and concerns

7:22that I have on a daily basis. And we do not identify the book in question, but the store. One of that is I don't ask. I didn't want to know he doesn't offer. So it's all left as a mystery. But because he didn't, I immediately went to it because I'm not completely up to in terms of what books have collections because I already have so much of this stuff so I don't need to buy the new additions. But bodies of work that's sprung to my mind are elf quest, which we did an entire dedicated issue. If you go back into the podcast with it, Spotify or elf question, an apple and you type in elf quest, you're going to get this. This is a seminal fantasy run by Wendy and Richard Peeney and which put Wendy Peeney on the map. And I never missed an issue. And that was $7,919. I wondered, is it American flag, which we've done dedicated issues on about this work of Howard Chakens that helped define, yes, to find what you saw visually.

8:25And the subject matters and the storytelling of both Dark Knight and Watchmen. Huge influence right here in American flag. I wonder, could it be that? Maybe there's a new addition of the Futurians, Dave Cochroms, self a creator owned super team that he launched in the 80s. Perhaps it was an extension because they're always doing crowdfunding with Jim Starlin and his dread star comic, which I believe is among the best things he's ever done exceeding. Yes, the Infinity Gauntlet and all things, Thanos. I didn't really believe that it could be, yeah, Kirby Silverstar because this is like 17, 18 years old or maybe some of the dynamite victory from Captain Victory. But all of this kept going through me. You know, could it be concrete? Could it be Sarah, but it's could it be Levin Rockets? Could it be Nexus? Because these were the titles that really satiated a hunger for me. They quenched my thirst in the 80s as a teenager when I just could not get enough comics

9:30in Marvel and DC one enough. So the creator owned titles, such as these that I've shared, that were coming out from a clips comics from Camico from first from Dark Horse, from Warp graphics, all of these different titles really inspired me and kept me going and were as he said, legacy works. There are storytelling characters, renderings that are as influential today as they've ever been, but you don't hear about them all the time because they're not Spider-Man or they're not Batman. And that's when he talked about the attention economy and so so all of these things that Michelle brought up demanded that I have a conversation about it. And so what you're about to listen to is the conversation that Michelle Fife and I had a lengthy, a very lengthy, it's raw, it's definitely unfiltered.

10:33You get some definitive takes from both him and me. Like I said, it's we went long, we wanted to go long. I could have gone another hour, but I realized that a two hour episode is generally a lot to ask from the audience. But as you guys know, comic books are my life, comic books are my love and comic books are most certainly my passion. And the thing I love about Michelle and that I've gotten to know of him over the last 98 years is he has a thirst and a hunger for the history of comics. I'm much older than him, but he is as educated. He is so educated. He is, it's like I'm talking to a peer, someone who was alongside of me in the 70s and the 80s, both consuming and then breaking into the comic arena. So much of what we discussed today is the concerns about creator owned. The corporations have it on lockdown. There are executives upon executives upon executives who are going to tend to those works.

11:38But what happens when the creator passes? Does the family pick it up? What happens as creators are challenged by the volume of the big two with their giant staffs and their ever expanding labels as we, I'm one of them collectively, you know, attempt to make our mark in a very narrow marketplace. And you're going to get some of my opinions and you're going to get plenty of Michelle's as we dive deep into this conversation about creators versus corporations, creator owned the burden that creators feel. We cover all of it. And I hope you enjoyed this very raw, this very candid conversation. I want to thank Michelle for jumping on board with me and taking the time to just embrace all of these different topics. So without further ado, we are going to transition to my conversation, my back and forth. And there's definitely an interview embedded within our conversation so that you can get

12:41to know Michelle better without further ado, my conversation discussion with Michelle Fife. I am thrilled out of my mind to be joined by one, Mr. Michelle Fife, the incredible author illustrator, creator. I have worked alongside this man or just watched him as he worked to bring bloodstrike brutalists out about 20. I think this was 2018. And this was just an absolute thrill. Your regular comic book that everyone knows you by now at the comic store, we call it copra. Is it copra? I call it copra. Okay, then we are here to be corrected. We are here to be. Hey, thank you for joining me today. Thanks for having me. I could talk comics all day. So I'm glad we're going to do our best. Thanks for the shot. By the way, that bloodstrike.

13:42I don't know if I ever told you, but that was like a dream gig. That was like the best case scenario for me. So thank you for that. I haven't thank you enough already about that. We can do like an addendum at the end and talk about this and it's incredible merits. Because you didn't just write and draw. You also produced by getting all these other incredible talents. No, no, I'm thanking you. I was the beneficiary here and I think the comics industry is going to be a beneficiary on this subject today on September 6th. And this caught my eye and I've already kind of prepared the audience for it. But how would you sum some up the statement? Like I said, I've already read it in its entirety. But how would you sum up? You were moved to post this on Instagram, on your socials on Facebook. Tell me what went into that.

14:44You know what's funny? I almost didn't post it because I thought it was such a big topic and it was, but I tried to summarize it in those few, you know, I did it through Instagram and through Facebook. I broke it down in both platforms. I think the issue at hand is it's an issue of preservation and memory versus being forgotten, you know, in the face of being forgotten. And especially in terms of smaller, independent or creator-owned works, I think that's important to a lot of us. But it stemmed from me going to a comic book store and asking like I was up, first of all, like you said, I'm a cartoonist, I'm going to shows every time I go to a different town, I go to a different comic store, check them out. And this was a really good comic book store. It was a clean, fresh, had a good array of stuff. But they didn't know this one title that's still coming out.

15:44It's still being published. The creators in question are still strong. And they just didn't know about it at all. So it had no presence, even though they had stuff from that same publisher elsewhere. So it was very alarming and it kind of stuck with me in a weird way. And I'm the kind of guy who just feels like he, even when I was that age of that clerk, you know, was a young clerk, I knew about some of the history, even though I hadn't read those comics, I knew about it. So the fact that they didn't know this one specific comic book was a super alarming. And I kind of stayed with me. And so I brought it up because it just made me feel, well, who's going to beat the drum for these things, you know? It's almost like a sobering thing. Like, oh, right, these things aren't going to be around forever. What are the things that are? And then it's like, you look back and you're like, well, it's all the big corporate owned properties that are going to be around. And that's fine and good.

16:46You and I like those comics. We all love those comics and those properties and those movies and those, you know, those characters, the rich library of characters at these corporations own at the end of the day. But what happens to the smaller stuff, you know, what happens to like the creator own stuff? So I don't know that that just sparked a debate. Not really a debate. It was more like I was just the open platform. Sure. The whole court of social media where it's like, well, who's going to talk about these things? Who determines these conversations? And I got a lot of good answers. There's a lot of good, it's like the better part of social media to be honest. I got a, I got a, I got a, I got a lot of good feedback for it. Yeah, I'm, I'm, while you write right here, if people are thinking that I'm checking out, I'm scrolling through the responses to your Facebook post again and, and, and all the different people who, who weighed in and had, had different opinions. I mean, I, what you touched upon, it's not just the individual titles, the thing that

17:47really, that struck me, but when you posted this on September 6th, you said, you talked about work made by generational talents. And you, you spoke about works that deserve to be enjoyed, studied, remembered, like stuff that's approaching legacy stage. So I don't know, I don't want to know the title in question. I think it's better to guess. You have not divulged. You have not asked. But what, what, what it made me do is go run and, before I do this, where this really resonated with me is, I've been fortunate with the show that the show has been the thing that I do that most people want to talk to me about across wherever I go. Like you said, whether it's convention stores, online, live streams, and it is, we have garnered a great audience. And the show has had, has definitely built up a reach.

18:49I bring that up only because I approached one of these generational talents that you spoke of. Someone who does not care for me, and I know he doesn't care for me. And I address it, look, I know you don't care for me. And he had two people who are part of his, let's say, not, not dedicated crew, but who have been with him at all the different shows of late. And they were like, hey, you should do Rob's show because I, this guy I believe, influenced everybody of work that followed. It's so impactful. And why I'm asking him to be on is to get the message out. Something Arthur Adams and I talked about in our last show was, it was after we kind of had closed the interview. We spoke about the people who don't like to acknowledge, and there are some in our business who don't like to acknowledge influences as if we're all deaf, dumb, and blind, and can't see them and hear them. I mean, they're so loud you can hear them.

19:49Okay. And Arthur really, I wish it was, had been something that I had recorded, but we had, we were done at that point and we had had an extensive conversation offline. And he just, he just said, yeah, you know, when I say, hey, this is Arthur was, was speaking like, when I say something about like, I'm influenced by Michael Golden, maybe that will get someone to go and hunt down Michael Golden. And that's the just, we're all helping each other out when we acknowledge influences. That's the, my thing with this generational talent. And even with the prodding of the two people alongside him, it was a hard no. And I said, I understood, I, I, I assumed it would be no, but I wanted to at least walk away having asked and requested and put, because these works are getting left behind. And that's what I heard in your post is, and that's what I wanted to do with you. And so I grabbed all manner of, so I just grabbed, so in Jim knows how much I love him,

20:51Dredd Star, which started out as Metamorphosis Odyssey in Epic magazine. I was there. I was excited. They were like Marvel's answer to, you know, heavy metal. But this dynamite reprinted this a couple of years ago, and I'm telling you, it's some, you know this, but this is some of the most beautiful comic book art storytelling. And you may have never heard of it because all you know of Jim Star on the Stanis in the Infinity Gauntlet. He, he, he did so much more than that. There's Darklon, which I couldn't grab from Eclipse, the, who, who were printed it. I'll even go so far as to say, because I didn't entire episode on Kirby and it created some discussion in my family. So I'm just setting a table here, but I don't believe Kirby's estate is getting out his creator own stuff in the way that I think would be the most beneficial, because I'm rooting for them. I'm every single creator yourself. We're all kind of at the end of the day, there is not a creator I root against. There is the brilliance of American flag, which is a seminal, a seminal work.

21:56I, I, I, I went out and I grabbed five copies of my original elf quest, but I, to throw up here as well. But these are titles that came to my mind when you were talking about titles that, some of which could be, I don't know what is in circulation. And then there's my buddy Dave Cochrom and the Futurians, which saw a couple different publishers and I had a crack at it for about 18 months and I didn't fulfill what I wanted to and I may take another crack, but I just want to show our readers what I didn't grab with Grendel, Mage, help me out here because there's, I'm sure there's so much. There's, I mean, there's nexus. That's the one. This is the thing. This is why this is alarming to me right now because it's a generational thing, right? And the 70s, you have creator own works here and there. It's not huge, but when it's the 80s, that was the big boom. And I'm not talking about just the black and white boom of the turtles and stuff. I'm talking about like first comics, eternity, everyone.

22:59I mean, there's so many. There's so many, you know, Camico clips. There's so many companies and everyone's got a universe and every creator owns their work and they're competing with the big two, right? So that's fine. Dark Horse started in the 80s. And you know, they would survive by doing licensing stuff, but also creator own stuff. So there's just so much of it that now 40 years later, who's taking care of those properties? Jim Starland did a kickstarter for that book. Image is putting out the, I think it was, image put out that silver star and the chicken stuff. And so those families or Kirby's families taking care of that for him. After chicken's gone, who's going to do that? Who's going to put that out? Who are the ins, what are the institutions that are going to be taken care of books like that where it's really just the penis doing a elf quest? This is, I want to say it's 17 years old. It could be 20. But so image did put this together. I think Eric Larson and Eric Stephenson oversaw it.

24:00But I hear about stuff that's out of print all the time. And I understand that dynamite took some bites at the apple. And I'm not here to pick on anybody and neither are you. But I wanted to have like this conversation because trust me, I'm in that boat with you. And I'm cruising these waves and trying to survive it. And it is a common begotacy because what again, so I'll say that I believe Jim Starland's best work is published on his own. I believe Howard Shaken's best work is published on his own. I believe Wendy Peeney, so on, so forth. Steve Rude, like you said with Nexus. And they were comic books that were so exciting. I was there. I watched every single one of these launch. I went out of my way. The independent scene of the 80s. And then by, you know, kind of with, with, it was very adjacent to what happened in the 90s. The 90s doesn't happen without the 80s inspiring us. So yeah, so I just, these works, which, and I saw some people say to you and you're like,

25:08OK, yeah, well, every answer can't be, you have to become a corporation like the Turtles. There was an exchange and you weighed in about the Turtles. Right. Right. Give me some more your thoughts on this matter. You say those books were electrifying and amazing when they came out. I discovered them as back issues. When I first, when I discovered American flag, it was my favorite comic. And it's still one of my top, like whatever. It's just very influential on me personally. And I think it still holds up. I don't think it's a product of its time, whatever, even if it was so white, it's still a great comic. So it's Dreadstar. I remember going back issue hunting on my, on my Jim Starland binge. And I recognize that now everyone's going to have that in them the way I do to go to books, you know, these warehouses or back issue bin diving and stuff. So that's why it's extra important to me that people know about these names, just know the names. And I mean, you do it with your podcast. You had the, you know, you dedicate entire episodes to select works and select creators and stuff.

26:08And I try to do my own version of that. And I've, you know, that's what I like about certain publications, you know, Zines that still come out. So luckily people still care, you know, it's not just up to the scholars to keep these things in museums and stuff. I'm thinking about my concern is keeping it available, keeping it known, keeping it in the conversation. Let's keep American flag in the conversation because it influenced things like Watchman and Dark Knight, right? But now Dark Knight and Watchman are getting out of the conversation too. That's the crazy part. Right. It's like recent fandom. This is, this is a crazy part. I've personally heard me of I'm wrong. The kind of voice in fandom, in recent vintage has been Frank Miller, Cantraw to Who's Frank Miller. And that's mind blowing, right? And I think the Kant draw thing, that's debatable, right? That's at least a conversation.

27:09I don't agree with that. I don't need to do that. Right. I think that's just kind of ridiculous and super ignorant. But not knowing Frank Miller is, is like kind of scary, you know. I think the good thing maybe is like, well, there's an opportunity. It doesn't have to be a bad thing. The huge opportunity to tell people about who Frank Miller is, give you context, show the work, spread the love, not only Batman, but his own creator own works, you know. It was the last time you saw Sin City. And that thing had a movie. Yes. Q. Two movies. Two movies, right? Like, this isn't some super obscure thing that you have to bendive. And so I think I think I might have mentioned it in my post, but it's like the attention industry. It's, yes, it's super intense. And you, I think you said, maybe I'm paraphrasing, you may have said something about the attention industry is brutal. Yes. And so look, this is why I wanted to talk to you because we're going to have a raw discussion.

28:11The first bandaid we're going to rip off for everyone listening is the absolute difficulty. We as creators experience making these works, producing these works, promoting these works. And it is tremendous effort. And it is not, you're not up against you and your comic and me and my comic are not up against the playing field isn't level because what you said with the corporations. Look, Batman is Christian Bale. Some people, he's Robert Pattinson to another. He's Michael Keaton. He's Adam West as our art Adams spoke of on a recent conversation to art. He's always going to hear Adam West. He's Frank Miller, Mazda Cheli. He's absolute Batman. Like there are so many iterations that we don't have to worry about, you know, Batman.

29:18And I'm going to, you know, same with Spider-Man, Spider-Man, the popularity of Spider-Man was only reinforced. And so those are kind of, for me, in auto pilot mode for maybe in perpetuity. I believe that we aren't going to worry about that because there are entire departments, multi level departments devoted to those icons, those characters. What we as creators have to do is meticulously, a sellable corporation and watch them take over. And I've had some of that come back to bite me. And then I was able to regain some sense of control. And I feel with at least the readership right the ship. But you have Cobra and you have self published it. You have run it through image. You have taken back self publication of it.

30:18It's yours. You have controlled its destiny. And then you choose to do a GI Joe project or bless me with a blood strike, brutalist project. But I got to be honest, I do know that people who didn't know who you were until you did this blood strike. And it wasn't, it's just, it's little expansions. I think people discovered you on GI Joe. And then you wisely ran back to Cobra. So I'm a big fan. If I haven't said enough, I wouldn't let anybody do anything with my work that I wasn't a big fan with my characters that I wasn't a big fan of. But again, we'll get more into the intricacies of your work and your style that I want to pick your brain. Do you agree the level of burden that falls on the individual creator is, is at times I got to be honest, it feels unbearable. And this last year, I have never felt it was more difficult than 2026.

31:20It's so intense. It's, and it's only getting more intense. I mean, my whole thing, whenever anyone asks or, you know, I did a how to book on, on my process. And part of it was the, the self promotion of it, because this is what it boils down to. It's just beating the drum. Who's going to do it for you? Is it going to be AT&T or is it going to be you from your living room? Cartoonists at the kind of comics I put out, I'm the one who has to do that. I don't have a department, you know, I don't have a team of lawyers or PR experts to do this stuff, you know. So it's part of the job. And I always said that. You got to show up, you got to go to the shows, you got to engage with the audience in some way, always expand it, always be happy and positive about it. Because it's part of the gig. It doesn't have to be a miserable grind. Like sometimes you, you, you might see a creator who like just wants to draw. And that's fine. I get that. Part of the whole thing is like, you have to, you have to let people know what you're doing. And just recently to your point, it's, it's just gotten more and more involved.

32:26And when I say brutal that the attention industry is brutal, it's like, it takes up a lot of time. Sometimes more than the actual work itself, you know, but you got to do it. You have to show up, you have to remind people constantly. No, you're like, you're never too big to do that. Because there's always new people like, you're right. When I was, when I was doing bloodstrike, a lot of people didn't know I was. And I, I never took that for granted. And I never assumed that they did to this day people are still discovering Cobra. You know, so that to me is a blessing. That to me is like, oh, that's, that's cool for that's, that's awesome. That's great. That's the opposite of what you want happen is that they forget and they're not interested. Right. That's what we're talking about. So I feel like I'm still, you know, the creators of this era, to me, 90s is still modern. So the 90s creators. Yes. And that boom is still like current to me. That to me, it's that one big pool of creator owned stuff.

33:27But what about when I'm at that stage where it's like, oh, it's been 40, 50 years. It's like, what's that going to look like? What's the landscape going to look like for me and my peers? But you can't, I can't let that stifle me at all. That's just kind of like a sort of rhetorical thing that you think about. That's what you carry with you. But you carry it every day. It's in you carry it. Yeah. Yeah. You can't just, I personally can't just dwell on it because then it's like, well, I have to draw a page right now. That's, that's what I got to worry about. And then post about it and then engage with people. But yeah, you're right. It is, it is sort of like, I know, I know, burden sounds heavy. And it's not untrue. But it is part of, it's baked into the whole process, I think, for sure. So I look, I'm, I have done and continue to do very well for myself. But it is because I put in 15 hour days.

34:30And I am, this is a passion of mine and I recognize. So my, for whatever reason, I'm going to kind of communicate this through the context of a conversation out with my two sons who were out here. I was with both of them this past weekend for a wedding. And they had suddenly become interested in facets of my work that they had never been before. They're, they're 26 and 24. And it was not a long conversation, but, but I told them about how when things became more difficult for me, was when basically the media decided 10 years into my career that they wanted to take me down, especially a very specific, very focused magazine wanted to make a mockery of me. And it was, it was the

35:32what's better than making something hot is breaking someone is actually breaking someone. And, and you see it in all facets of media. If they can do that, there's a, there's a, there's a rush because people do have agendas, things they like. And if you're getting in that way, they want to stop it. This, this is all manner of sports entertainment politics, comic books. Why am I telling you this? I told my boys that when Twitter happened, not X Twitter and Facebook, it leveled the playing field. Now I could reach you directly. And I have implemented that into my everyday existence. And it is part of, I believe it is as much a part of getting my work out there as, as anything, it is equal to me producing the art is me communicating. So I am my sales manager, my market, my marketer, I am my promotions department. And, and it is a daily drum.

36:33Sometimes I decide to bang it a little louder. Sometimes I don't, as you said, you've got a podcast. You're on social media. You're, you're, you're a 21st century creator navigating a very rugged terrain. Why did it get different this year? Because I've already said this to the audience. The advent of the live stream, some people call them influencers, but this, this increased the volume and started tilting things in such crazy directions that I had retailers calling me saying, Rob, when do you think this is going to stop? I have, I have friends who now have retail accounts in Texas, outside of California, and a couple in Florida and they're like, what is going on here? I'm like, you tell me. And they'd be like, these prices are crazy and they're scary. But what it did is it narrowed this focus to almost where nothing else mattered for like nine months. And to get to break anything through, and I'm going to tell you, Marvel, I believe,

37:38was caught unaware and they were suddenly in your and my positions in regards to trying to break through the noise to get anybody to look at anything that they were doing. It's the most blunted I've ever seen a major company and to be specific. So DC with the absolute line, but then that FOMO cyclone of independent books that happened between February and April, of which now the scene is not the same. Yeah, whether you are the messages that I'm getting are the scene is the same. But you know what? It doesn't mean that it can't roll up on us again tomorrow. And the truth of the matter is you're in competition with hundreds of different titles at all times. I will take a break. No, I mean, you're in competition with what's new, what's upcoming and the history of the art form. So you're just always at least I am thinking about this stuff constantly. And I think another big change, the inflection point was the pandemic.

38:39I think that changed. I mean, it took like a positive uptick. And then it got weird for a second, you know, and now it's like, who knows what's going to happen? You could predict a bunch, but who really knows what's going to happen? And all I could say is that I was fortunate enough to sort of carve my own little corner of comics and interest. So I could weather those storms. So I could still tap into the people who want what I have to give. And that's awesome. And my job now is to sort of continue putting stuff out, but also keep an eye out on expanding that. I'm always thinking about that. And that's part of the gig also. But I think just being online in general, man, I mean, that's just, I mean, there's like studies where it's like your eyeballs are being manipulated. And it's like, it's like eating junk food or it's just, it's just a weird, it gets, not to get too lost in the weeds here. But there's, that's a very real thing that everyone has to deal with.

39:40Like grandparents, young kids, everyone has to deal with comic book artist musicians, actors, just, this is a daily thing. So if anything, it's challenging and interesting, you know, as long as you're not crushed by it, that's all because that would be the worst. If someone, if there's a young cartoonist out there and they just, that's the one thing, keeping them from expressing themselves and going forward, that would be heartbreaking because, hey, I was the guy who just wanted to draw. I didn't want to stuff on the ropes and go to the post office and deal with invoices and stuff. I wanted to be a cartoonist. I wanted to be a comic book maker. But circumstances led me to look into self publishing and realize that it's not the end of the world. Just do a little extra work and then it becomes part of the, your cycle. And that's how I managed to survive is to kind of like pivoting to that and controlling my product 100%. Whereas before I didn't want to do that.

40:42This might be a similar thing. I just don't know what it's going to look like. You know, for, for the younger generation or even our current generation of cartoonists. Well, I keep leaning on the social media aspect of it and I'll tell you because the most, um, you know, I'm not going to be at New York Comic on this year. I'm trying to do every other year with that show. But if I was, so it would be just like San Diego, you'd get hundreds of different people. And I get it online all the time who are asking, how do I get my work more exposed? And I'm also, I immediately become very upbeat because I said, I had to drive eight hours to San Francisco and stand in the line and wait hours to get my portfolio seen. You have the internet. We didn't, I did not in 1986, 87 as I'm breaking into comics, have the internet. You can get your workout and we've all suddenly gone, oh, I'm going to follow this guy. These paintings are great. These drawings are great. His storytelling is great. Um, and you can reach people through your Facebook portal, your TikTok, your Instagram.

41:44I mean, these are essential when I'm not kidding. When I say that had social media not come around, there were elements of the business. That did want to put me in the ground, bury me and move along. And I think that there's an element that is upset that I literally had one guy who I saw flip out online. And I thought we moved past this guy a long time ago. And my response is I won't let you move past me. And that is the fight of every creator because just like we said here. So we're going to once again revisit the American flag because this is, I've done dedicated episodes. The podcast, maybe year two, year three on what, as you mentioned, there is. Okay. Frank Miller and Alan Moore were looking at this book liberally. And then the work this then led to elements that we saw in Watchman and Dark Knight that I see somebody like Tom McFarland was spawned number one.

42:45And you brought life with young one number one with floating screens and reporters giving us. This information and that now being a stylistic choice of how do you break down a narrative. This is where it all started and you weren't kidding. I don't care when this was made. These drawings look like they were made today and they're better than most everything. You know, on planet earth. I mean, every single page here and Howard knows how much I absolutely revered this work. Like I said, similarly, as I said, most, I think most everyone has done their best work. If you were to ask me what Mark Sylvester's best work, I would say it was his first five issues of the darkness, something that he owns and is part of the top cow lore. So it's something he did on his own very few guys, I believe did their best work. It did not do their best work as a creator. Yes. Some, some people I think are just born to draw these huge properties. And when they're given the freedom to do their own thing, they kind of don't want to.

43:48They're kind of like, yeah, I guess I should do this X, you know, redacted book, but their best stuff is on Batman or fantastic for or there are some there are some like that. And I have, you know, I'll tell you and I've talked about it on the show. Some people need to see the history of a character and to draw from the history of that character in order to create the work that they want to put on. They need to seal a Neil Adams version of something with a Michael Golden version of something and then be able to kind of. I've seen it. I have seen it. I have I have peers that I believe that strongly to be the case, but um, I believe that the market so so in terms of social media. And I look man. You got people's notice well over a decade ago. I was mispronouncing your name. I, I, I, I, Copa was in my local comic store. Early issues and people were buzzing about it and I could see your influences.

44:50I, I was like, this is like an indie version of like a suicide squad type concept. And that's what I, how I looked at it and why I pursued it, why I purchased it. And they're like, oh man. And these guys, they were so geek to tell me about the book because I'm, I'm grabbing it with issue three or four and they're already completely into it. When I mispronounced your name to Robert Kirkman, he already knew the you're, he had all your work. Oh, you're mispronouncing that name Rob. You told me any, any told me how to pronounce it. And so you got people's attention. You were the master of your domain writing, creating, illustrating, showing people your talents as a storyteller and getting your book out there. And it was like you became a fresh pioneer, you know, in the marketplace. And I, and I, I know, I know like Eric Stevenson was excited to, to, to, you know, enter the world of Copa for as long as, as image was.

45:50Was able, I mean, so, so you're a guy who has pushed to the floor. And now you, here you are. You know, let's say, I mean, at least for me, nine years after working with you, or, or, or when these pages started to come in. The, we're looking at this marketplace. And what I believe it is, it is never going back to what it used to be. We are never getting network television, the likes of which you and I grew up with. I had a three network powerhouse. I watched Fox. I remember the first Fox Saturday and Sunday shows Wolfman with Chuck Connors or werewolf and, and obviously, I'm loving marriage. What is that called crap? Ed Bundy. That's it. Married until I watched 21 Jump Street. I watched them expand and, and, and, and, and be born. And yet work. My, my wife was, was joking like, do we watch anything on network television? The answer is at this point. No.

46:52I am all, even the news. I was a daily today show. Good morning, America. Since I was a kid, watch it with my mom. While I was on vacation this year, I turned to my wife and I was like, I only watch my, my, my screens because I have YouTube, YouTube shows that I watch for my news. There are some guys doing really clever stuff in the news space, like politics, who are drawing several different forms now have a moderator with a liberal and a conservative. I'm not sure if those are the shows that I listen to. I love the balance. That's what I want. I'm, I recognize the, the strong voices right and left on both sides. I want a balance. So I've sought out my own programming. I don't, I'll never go back to watching morning shows or the news because it's curated for me here. And so I believe we are becoming more segmented and it's not going to not become it. We are not going backwards. And so it is how do you surf as a creator creating right now what you need to know is the market place is hard. It's difficult to veterans are telling you right now that it's hard and it's difficult.

48:07Tell me how you apply, you plan to apply this to everything that you're doing. Well, I think it's not when I when I posted that thing on on Facebook and Instagram, I was sort of loosely asking what can be done right. But the real solution is word of mouth. Yes, right. Like that's kind of what these podcasts are. That's kind of what go into the store and those guys recommending or talking about a cope or whatever. That's what it is. That's a simple thing. And you know, people either like it and they talk about it or they don't and you just have to make sure that they do or that you have a fighting chance that they talk about you. So moving forward, it's just other than just trying to do your best. It's just plugging away and engaging with the world. And the way I do that is by talking about other comics as well. That's what you do as well. Right. And it's like whether it be posting stuff on, you know, blogging back in the day. Now it's on Instagram or on my website or through YouTube.

49:11We just talk about the things we love, whether it be process or other artists or that check in book. I mean, talk about, I mean, what I did, that's, that's a product of loving something like American flag or something like a love and rocket. Or more of a self published thing inspired by the image revolution, you know, I'm like an amalgam of all these elements, right. And that's that always helped me sort of that was my media training in other words, like noticing how these factors operate, right. I don't know moving forward like how, how to do that because I'm in it. I'm in the middle of it. I mean, think of it. I mean, we're in the trenches. We're doing this. All I could say is I to try to tell myself to keep a positive outlook, be curious. And just talk about the stuff you like, you know, just just tell your friends, just tell your stores and that could be that could be a little challenging because some stores don't want to listen.

50:16You know, you will find opposition within stores, you know, or within fans. So you just have to be positive and just keep talking. Let's talk about let's talk about that store and how it made you feel because that's how you began your, that's all started your statement. I'm going to just tell the audience. I'm talking a lot today. I'm going to hear everything that Michelle has to contribute, but I'm definitely talking. Let it all out. I had to get fitted for a tux for the wedding about five weeks ago. And, you know, shockingly, there are a whole lot of those places anymore. And there's one called fryer tux out here. I'll tell this fast. They were great to me. The whole great. You got a great tux for this wedding. Got great. You know, service and. But as I was being fitted around my neck, it was like, I think a 19 year old kid.

51:19And I said, Hey, do you know why this is called fryer tux? And he said, I have no ideas, sir. I said, how old are you? And that's when you said, I'm 19. I said, OK, OK, it's not a big guy. I was just curious. I was just curious. So you really don't know why this is called fryer tux and he goes, no, I said, so you've never heard of fryer tux. And he goes, I have no idea what you're talking about. I go, have you heard a little John? And he said, no. And I said, have you heard of Robinhood? And he goes. That feels like something I've heard before. I said, OK, I said, so check this out, man. I said, Robinhood had a band of Mary men. And and and and fryer tux was is in that is in that band of Mary men. And and this was a play on that word fryer tux. And he looked at me like, old man, would you shut up? And I'm just trying to fit your neck, but it was funny. I didn't try and go. I was very polite. I was so what drove it was my curiosity that was never at any point. You could ensure there was cameras in the store. You'd see how totally chill I was. And between the uprising Robinhood movie that came out last weekend that I haven't seen yet because I had a wedding, but I will.

52:26And then the death of Robinhood, which I've seen multiple times with with Hugh Jackman that that was never destined to be a giant hit. But but the mythology is still out there. So stories and for the audience, he biggest other than the Disney Robinhood cartoon that I grew up with my dad took me to the drive through the Kevin Costner Christian Slater Alan Rickman Robinhood was a giant summer blockbuster. The summer that X force came out. So they're the same age. And it's it's you would be shocked. So that's just a Robinhood. I believe is a better known story than American flag and dread star. And my kid when I asked my own sons. So I got to know what you're talking about. What do you tell my friar? So so we are it's that Stephen King essay in that anniversary issue of detective where he said I felt like Batman was going to go the way of the lone ranger. The phantom and the shadow. And I like that's it. Yeah, you know, and so when you the comic stores look.

53:31There is not a curiosity. And there is no there is so much of focus. And that's what the FOMO culture wants you to do. Only look at what's right near here and what's right now and what we've put the lens on. And I am fairly engaged in broadening that approach because I know that that approach ends poorly for everyone. And and the work in these books, the work in this book. Here's the deal. People are going to ask about this. People are going to buy this after the show. If I had my copras, I'd hold those up. I hope you're going to hold them up hold something up with copper before the show is over or multiple times throughout that the the exposure. And so where I'm I can tell you firsthand. I had multiple best selling comics in the 90s. But people. I got a brand new audience because of Deadpool and the in those films. And what people then found out was I've never heard of young blood. I'm going to check this out. I don't know what blood strike is.

54:39And I don't take that as an insult. I'm excited. Let's go. Let's let's have that conversation. Let me show you that. This isn't gatekeeping. Anyone who thinks we're doing gatekeeping here. You haven't been listening. This is a deep passion. What would make us super happy. It's you about right now is if more people do about this. Come on. Come on. We want to share these things with you. We don't want to gatekeep and check up on you. You know, but the one thing about the store clerk. And it didn't occur to me in the moment because I was so stunned. Right. But what if that clerk. What what did they like? What are their obsessions. What did they have a deep knowledge of X manga or X video game or move maybe their movie buff and they just they're working in a comic shop and they don't really know this stuff. Right. So that's why I didn't want to hang it all on one clerk in one shop in the middle of nowhere. Right. What about that friar tuck kid? You know, what if he's just super knowledgeable in, I don't know, biology sports anything any other sort of obsession.

55:45All right. So they don't know Robinhood. That's a little that's special. But and you wonder when that happened. All I did was when I got back when did Robinhood slip from the consciousness. Because as I said, it was 30 years ago that it was a giant blockbuster. And I know there's different versions of Robinhood on on cable. There's always seems to be something sure would forest, but but it has definitely slip from between that Disney cartoon and Kevin Costner. And and and this was me experiencing that and I've joked on the show. I think the Bible and Star Wars are the two best. The best known stories in the culture right now. I think my misstep was you at least engage with that with that clerk. I should have been like, it's so and so it's a great comic because of whatever and how to conversation, but whatever. I was on the world. We're having that conversation now. We're having that conversation now and and and look today's clerks now I'm going to flip. And so you hear me and hopefully you didn't turn it off.

56:48Today's clerks are under a lot of pressure to rack file, bag, board, not just an incredible amount of American common books, but all of the manga titles. And so, hey man, if you're maybe a clerk that doesn't know anything about nexus badger, love and rockets, dread star, American flag, time squared, but but you're turning somebody on to a great manga title. God be with me. Go with God. You're you're doing. I get it. I get it. That's overwhelming. And the clerks that I talk to this comic stores. I talk to are overwhelmed. And I'm going to get more to some truths here. My retailer told me how much more his expenses have gone up on his store. And I try to talk over the last six years about how important the clubhouse is. That's the common bookstores are there are club houses. But I do. The advent of live streaming and the ability to reach people all around the world is what I'm staking the rest of my career on.

57:57I cannot put it in the hands of the stores. I cannot. Now you do a healthy amount of mail order. Is that true? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not shipped to stores myself, but I also do direct to director reader, direct to consumer. I try to be as available as possible. You know. And that's why the image thing too is helpful because they take care of other things that I don't like books, hard covers, digital international things like I don't. I have enough with the issues. The issues take up all of my time. But I'm available. I'm transparent. I always love talking and engaging with stores and readers. And like I said, people who are just discovering it like just last week. People I hadn't read copper, but they ordered a bunch from me for the Labor Day weekend. And I'm always super grateful. So it's always growing by my estimation. So. So there's a podcaster who I was excited to meet this last year and he hosts the big picture on the ringer over on Spotify.

59:04And the reason I love Sean Fennese and I told him. And I've been listening to him for almost a decade now. He is I believe. 15 years younger than I am born in the 80s. I'm born 1967. And I grew up with a family that love movies that love television. He can sit and talk about 1970 cinema as if he was there because he's put in the work. He wanted to study William Friedkin, Martin Scorsese, David Lean, all of the greats. And I love that he literally can speak about these films with the knowledge of someone who was there and yet he was not. And that's, you know, he can talk about Robert town. I mean, he's just I love listening to him because he's got so much energy, so much enthusiasm. And what I'm the 70s and 80s.

1:00:09We have our own versions of William Friedkin and Martin Scorsese as you know and Coppola at their at their peak. And they were making like you said that explosion. I was there. It was Nexus. We were coming home from Huntington Beach, Arthur Adams mentions on a different podcast. He mentions it today on my podcast. I brought it up because I'm like, that's the story I went to. They had the best selection of comics. They're called land of ooze and Oz in fountain valley right before fountain valley turns into Huntington Beach and on Beach Boulevard. If you keep driving, you're going to go straight into the ocean. Because you're like like Huntington Beach Beach Boulevard. You are hitting the beach on the way back from the beach with my mom in 1982, 1983, whatever that date is. I am sunburned, but she has agreed to let me stop in my favorite store that is so far away. And I saw this magazine size, you know, Paul Galasi cover, Capitol comics. Who's Capitol comics?

1:01:10Who is this guy Steve Rudd is drawing better than anybody from Marvel and DC right now. Mike Baron never heard of him. He used all my money because that was an expensive. I want to say it was a book 25. It was definitely not a 50 cents 75 cents purchase, but it was a black and white. And I was and I immediately picked up on my register was this has a space ghost element to it, which turned out to be exactly the baseline for what they were trying to do with Nexus. But that to me. Elf quest and Nexus or the first bricks in this movement that then other people say, well, what about Saber? What about they all suddenly started. It was the gold rush of independent and it was genius works. Howard chicken talks about how frustrated he was and I can tell you like after his Star Wars and then doing a stint on micrenuts. I was beginning to wonder if Howard was checking out. It just looked like minimal effort, but he recreated himself on this stuff and continues to inspire us.

1:02:14Similarly, like I said, what is Jim Starland do? He becomes a painter. He starts painting everything he does for several years and you're like, when did this guy become a wicked fantasy illustrator, like level of craftsmanship. And so I love sharing these experiences with people having those conversations, turning them on, knowing that they're going to go to eBay. They're going to buy them. They're going to order them. Look up for their first going to go to Amazon. This is how it happens. And then if it's not there, then they go to eBay, but it's exciting because this work is out there because what I believe comic fans have a never ending thirst. But without people to direct them. So I guess you know what I'm going to do. I'm just going to thank you for putting that post up man because really I'm like, I have to talk about this. And I'm so glad you joined me and we're not done. We're going to continue talking. I appreciate it. The stores, the stores are they got to make rent.

1:03:15They got to make their nut, their inventory. And why I believe so why do I believe it's going to continue to segment because some people right now are going to turn the lights off right now. They have made this decision to turn the lights off on their store and go live stream only one of my favorite stores in Orange County pop comics, Thomas, Thomas, was a super nice guy. Super smart retailer was on the board of, you know, whatever retail, whatever retail union there is. And he right after the pandemic, 2021, he's he reopened after out here in Southern California. And then one day in 2021, he said, Rob, I'm shutting up the stores. I'm just going from the warehouse and I'm going to do mail order now mail order means live stream. And there are takes. Yeah, for these people to make their money, you know, no, and I'm rooting for them. But there's people who are right now turning off the lights of their store to go online only in order to do fulfillment.

1:04:19And that's pro and we need them to I'm just saying we need them to because I just don't know how many I don't know how realistic retail, the retail experience is going to continue to be. So then what does that do? It puts the burden on us to be loud. Why are we having this convention to this conversation? You put something up. It grabbed my attention. You did it. You did you formatted it differently on Instagram. You formatted it differently on Facebook. Yeah. And like I said, dude, I'm just excited to I want more people look the great thing about the Lucasfilm Museum is all the Toshin books they have. I mean that the gift store has these Toshin books. And you know, I did see people who I don't know grabbing the fantastic four ones grabbing the Avengers ones and I'm like, oh man, you are in for a treat. What when you go, but there are people I learn about it every day. There are people who will look to me straight in the face and tell me that the original X men were always the most soup, nothing but super successful. And you're like, you don't know your history. I don't have time.

1:05:24I will argue a certain extent, but then I got my own work to do, right? But I guess there are a lot of blind spots. So what are other ways that you think that you see the industry changing? That's a big one. How I see it changing. I hope it's not contracting in that way where it's like, you know, because I've seen stores come and go and it's been heartbreaking. You know, I've had friends put up stores and then until they just don't have them anymore. I hope stores stick around. I think crowdfunding has become like almost an essential thing where you just have to engage in that way. And not only offer whatever your big ticket item is, but you have to just become almost like a retail store. Yes. And that you have to offer the trinkets, the side things that, you know, it's a very boutique experience in this way. So it's a very consumer, friendly, forward kind of.

1:06:27That's what that experience is. So there's going to be tons of that. I think that's not going anywhere. I don't think that's going anywhere. I don't know about the publishers, man. I don't know what, listen, I don't know what Marvel is going to do. I mean, I love it when you talk about Marvel being licensed out by other companies because that's exactly what's been happening. You know, it's like, you know, let's just just bring fan graphics as an example of as a sort of like a curator of our culture, right? They put out old books. They put out new books. And now they're putting out Marvel books, which I never thought I'd get to see like it's crazy. Yes, yes, in order to survive in order to survive, you know, because they at first to make their quota. They put out things like amazing heroes of very superhero biweekly or by monthly. No, no, biweekly, I think. And then they put out Eros books. They put out Eros books for adult. They're adult adult line of books. Then they got their peanut gallery and their duck books and they're just they have a diversified portfolio. And now they're putting out Marvel.

1:07:30So I don't know what that says about Marvel, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know how those comics are going to be coming out. I think they're not going anywhere personally. But the reason I bring them up is because to me, Marvel has been like a staple all my life. Just there, they've been like that center that the one to be right that they're the number one. So now it's a little like it's it's it's it's it's weird to see them being shook like this. And so I see things like fanographics kind of coming in and printing their books up or IDW or dark horse. All these other publishers, pretty much Marvel product. I can't help but think that's anything but good as long as product is being put out as long as readers reader interest is there. How it's going to shake out. I really can't tell you. I don't know. All I hope is that there's a there's an avenue for me in which to put out books. Me too. Monsieur, I want you to succeed. I want you to succeed. I don't want. I don't want to succeed at the expense of anybody else. I don't want you to succeed the expense of anybody else. I want you to succeed. And in your success, learn from it.

1:08:41Right. And I do have some game. I got. Yeah. I learned from everybody. I learned from everybody. And I tried to apply those same lessons and you talked about the trinkets, the tricks. Look, the truth of the matter is I did. I shared with my wife. I said, I'm a retailer now. What I sell is my product. Yes. But I am I am in the retail game, whether it's on eBay, whether it's on whatnot, whether it's on my my website. My website has is is probably 30% of my earnings. And I try to throw stuff up on their first. I offer it in premium formats. I'm fortunate that I have an audience that will pursue those things. Sure. And and and people value obviously reliability, but also accessibility. And I've been in the direct market a long time going into my 42nd year. I do believe that there are there is a ton of confusion. I mean, look, you mentioned the pandemic.

1:09:43We we we went into the pandemic with one distributor for better for worse. And now there's multiple distributors. So we have been the fragmentation of the business started there. And whatever agenda is we're part of that. I'm not privy to in in in in the entirety. Obviously you had a you had a distributor falling apart. And you had some people who didn't want to help keep the distributor together. So they wanted to do go down different avenues. But I was talking to the image guys. And one of the things that was coming up was how much more how much easier this pertains to your marvel observation. It's just easier to sell something that is known. Again, something that is unknown. And this is why I'm so excited for. Daniel Warren Johnson and his chain caught up. Let me tell you. He could have written his own ticket at either company at either of the big two. And when he did is he bet on himself. He doubled down and said, whatever is over here and whatever is over here, I can do this.

1:10:50Chain caught up will be. You know brought into existence in November. It's going to be a big giant massive hit. And I believe there will be curiosity now because the biggest guy in the business decided I won't do for. These are just two characters. I saw him dance with them the last 18 months. I won't do Wolverine. I won't do Batman. I'm going to do chain caught up and I'm going to make you love chain caught up and I'm going to show you. And I do believe having a book explode that big that isn't adjacent to transformers. That isn't adjacent to marvel and DC. But it is it is his own. You know, pursuit is going to lift all I do believe he is going to be the clear winner. But I believe those tides will help everybody because it's an independent doing something independent. And it's that's exciting. Just I'm getting excited talking to you about it. And there will be as with everything people will look around the independent FOMO. That was more like gambling in February and March.

1:11:55And really the only one that came out on top was the one that had the most I think talent behind it, which was door and Brett being is perfectly suited to capitalize. He's got the talent. He's got the drive and the discipline. Those three things are not generally found. I mean, again, I love Arthur Adams. I was not. If you think that I was going to bring missed deadlines and lateness up with Arthur Adam. That's not my gig. I'm here to praise his work. He brought it up all the time. You know, I became known for missing deadline. I mean, he so casual and so nonchalant. And that's why I love him. He's always just going to the sound of his own drum. But I think that like Brett being is like ridiculously prolific and met the moment. God, people excited. He was the book that got everybody. Like, oh my gosh, I got caught with my pants down. I didn't get this. I didn't get enough of this. It felt like the turtles all over again as a kid who put back the turtles thinking it was going to be there a week later and going, oh, you don't have that winner. Are there anymore coming in? Not that we know of.

1:13:06Damn. And then I don't even look at how much they're worth anymore. I can't. I just hear the 14, 15 year old and me just goes dummy. Um, but uh, you know, the turtles are injured. The turtles example is like a lightning and a bottle situation. But outside of that to me, the turtles are two guys making a comic book in their garage. Right. That's sort of like you're building your own little world. You're putting your head down and you're working and you're just go with God. Here's the first issue who's going to like it. I don't know. And that was a big. That's another big inspiration for me when I started self publishing when I didn't want to self publish was, you know, the industry at the time, 2011, 2012, um, was to me crazy. And I couldn't like I was trying to break in. I was trying to make a dent. Just trying to have a voice. And it wasn't coming out the way I wanted it to. It was all very dribs and drabs. Right. So I was like, you know what? I'm just going to put out my own book.

1:14:09And ignore the noise and just concentrate. And I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to reach out to stores. And I'm just going to build online because like you said, the platforms, the presence that's important. That's part of the deal. And so I utilize that. I'm a product of the modern times, right. In that regard in self publishing, self distributing, all that stuff in being a mouthpiece. And so I feel like I'm kind of reverting back to that sort of focus today. So when you ask me about like where the where the industry is going to be, I don't know because I'm back to that. I got to put my head down and I just got to make a comic that I want to exist. I can't. I don't I hope the stores are around to carry it. And I hope the readers are still there interested when I'm done with it. When the smoke is cleared and I have a book out. But right now I just I'm in the mode a very specific mindset of just like, Oh, I just have to create the thing.

1:15:12You've caught me at a very crucial moment, but I don't know where I don't know where we're going to be in a in a hell of mud. You're doing the so I'm going to give you a little encouragement. Everything I do I do for me. I don't try to play Kate to the audience. I do it for me. I do it because it excites me. I ain't going to style that excites me. I lay out in a style that excites me. I want you know. And when I'm doing it, I'm funneling everything that I love about. I love to be Jim Storanco, Art Adams, Neil Adams, Steve did go whatever. Much like yourself. There's a very small show around here in January and February. Sometimes it's in January, sometimes it's in February. One day show. And this year I came upon a guy who I was attracted to his booth because all he sells his old invention programs. But he then had all of get goes like I mean by all I mean about 30 of get co self published comics that I only heard of and I did not possess and I bought all of them and I got home and I think my wife was just like you are just in such a good mood.

1:16:25And I'm like you know he self published those and they had very limited distribution. And now they're mine like I have them in my collection. I get to see I always brain works and he was just doing what he wanted. And look I can hear some people saying yeah, but how did those sell did they matter? They matter to him. That's why he did him. The guy who gave you spider man and doctor strange was doing his own thing and he was a peculiar man. But the point of that particular example is like I consume them immediately. The guy was obviously extremely pleased because I paid him a nice ransom to take them off his hands. I don't know what Steve made when he was creating them, but that's where his passion lies and Kirby's drawers were I still there are characters that Jack had designs for that I still have yet to see. I'm not sure they're ever going to get to all of them and I you know my wishes that the Kirby estate would utilize his name talent recognition.

1:17:33You know and and build more on it rather than relying on his Marvel legacy because here's the flip you mentioned it. I was a top paid top contracted person at Marvel whenever I was there and I knew I had to get out of there. I was going to die unless I got and I mean like to be there was they were giving my projects. None of the intensity and the passion that I was putting on the page and so that's why immediately said I got to get out here I got a return to independence all the time. 100% of the time because that's where that's so crazy just a side bar I've always thought that's so messed up how it's like you guys made them so much money. Billions, Billions, even just in 1991 alone it's like it's kind of great. Sorry to interrupt. No, no, and I want to say when I say it's billions that's not said in any way shape or form in a bitter way. I say that was great pride. I say that was great pride. I had a guy I was reading an interview with a guy another creator who hadn't created any significant characters or and he was telling how he was a billion dollar author for them when I was like wow.

1:18:45So like I'm like there's another level of hubris because people have talked about my enormous ego. I mean honestly I don't know how I fit it in this screen today in order to talk about you and getting my ego down the stairs is a bitch. It's a bitch in and in of itself. So so I hope that this hasn't completely choked you out today. But the thing is you know you would you do understand like you wonder why what is it and look it's I watched last night Kansas City's got Seattle's MVP from the Super Bowl because for whatever reason Seattle didn't want to deal with him anymore and he ran all over the screen and is the reason they won his decisively as decisively of as they won last night and the and then sports media this morning was like why did Seattle not just make it work with you. Make it work with him and so you never know who in what front office and what executive and that's the thing that people have to know you artists out there you creators you writers you are absolutely up against suits who are taught to think in a much different way than you do creatively and it's a give no quarter especially Marvel I believe my opinion is in the last 15 years Marvel because of their reliance on overseas talent and the cost.

1:20:02The cost the reduced cost of dealing with overseas talent I believe they have become even more accustomed to bullying people and many of those talents don't even talk to Marvel because they're represented by an agency and international rep I also work with these international reps I tried to pay each one of my talents better than the whatever rate Marvel is giving getting them just on on personal kind of. You know just out of kind of a personal agenda I don't want to you know I want them to know that with me I paid you I paid you better than Marvel page you and I can say that and I can go to my grave. But I believe Marvel has become less tolerant of anyone with an opinion because if you look at so many of their books it is 90% of the line is produced overseas and that was part of CB Symbolski's original mission statement 25 years ago to go. Travel the world and find talent whether it's Italy Spain Brazil and they have a giant workforce there and I did talk to two of them and say you know when I pay you this page rate like okay I actually just focus on the page rate that Marvel is paying them is so cheap in American dollars but depending on your region it is way more important.

1:21:30Depending on how the American dollars trading and one of these guys said no no Rob you don't understand getting and I don't want to say the number because it's so embarrassing to say the number of what some of these Incurs and pencils and colors for getting but it's a giant yield to them so Marvel has had a method with which they've been producing books and it is not based on anyone really influencing their outlook and they they have these corporate retreats as you've heard as we've all read about that I have. I was barely attentive in the very first one they ever had and was like I never want to be part of this ever again this is not my game plan you follow your muse I follow my muse but the the passion that we put on the page is we generate from our own personal excitement the things that you may walk out of a movie and want to put that something that excited you into Copa that's and that's your right but you need to know is create. What matters is you've got to I read people on threads threads is the most interesting I get the biggest kick out of threads. Um there's a most nihilistic outlook exist on threads these people are in dire like dire mindset but I try to reach out and go because someone will say I don't know how many get this done because I have to be my own marketing person my own promotions person my own you know producer as well as you know creating the work and it's like yeah what might happen if you can just talk about it.

1:22:57you know, creating the work. And it's like, yeah, welcome to the comic book medium. Now, some people, there were great talents at extreme. They went into animation for a reason. Comic books was hard. And the money and animation required them to do use their talents, but not to part of the extreme race that's being conducted in comic books all the time where there are favorites. And it's hard to break out. And on another podcast, I listen to Arthur Adams say, sometimes magic happens for a creator who's work you don't care for, but they just take the stage and dominate. And these are Arthur's own words. And he didn't identify who he was talking about, but he said over his career, I was he, how he's seen, you know, different people. And once that happens, again, and I think the magic is surrounding Daniel Warren Johnson right now. If you can tell I'm all in on him, I love and you pick independence.

1:24:00That's a big deal. That is a big deal that he walked away from the corporate, you know, protection. Sure. Because what we said now or a half ago, Batman and Spider-Man are never going anywhere. Right. Do you? Well, it feels like there is no protection also. No, there it's not like it's not like set in stone, where it's like you go to those properties and they ensure that you get X amount of followers or fans. That that that no longer happens. I don't think from my observations, I don't think. Yeah, I don't know. The magic bullet to me and juggling all this stuff is just liking what you do. It's that simple. I mean, you mentioned it. And listen back in 2012, no one was asking for an indie suicide squad type of book. You know, I mean, nobody was asking for it. Nobody expected it. No one. Indie people didn't know about it. Mainstream people didn't know about it.

1:25:00It just exists for me. And if I could have used one or two of my friends, awesome. Right. You wanted to succeed, but the reason I did it is because it has to, because I had the drive to do it, because I really had to do it. Right. Same thing with the, you know, fast forward to like a year ago when I was doing the Keith Giffin podcast, where I just did. Every one of the episodes, by the way, thanks for the plug. I really, that was like holy crap. Rob's watching. Love it. Nobody was asking for that. Nobody was asking for that. And, and I had to get it out of my system. I had to talk about this one creator that I loved and spread the word. And I'm not taking any money for it. It's a free show. It no ads. It's just me talking about a comic book artist. For hours, for hours, that may not be your cup of tea and may not be your speed, but it is what it is. And that's what I'm just sharing it with the world. It was my cup of tea. It was definitely my cup of tea. And again, I'm talking to a guy who has all those traits

1:26:05that I said, Sean Finisie has. You talk, you talked of the very earliest short stories that Giffin was doing in the 70s, and you covered it as if you were there. That meant you put the work in, you studied it, I know. It's what I love about you, man. I love that you're buying zines, old comics journals. That is something about you that I truly, even your approach to making bloodstrike, which was like, I wanna fill some gaps. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited. And again, you didn't know, you read the room correctly with what you were giving everybody with Cobra. You saw something that you wanted to do, and it did feel, and I don't think, I'm at a balance here saying, I don't believe Cobra has seen its best days. And you're not going to be satisfied, and you're gonna keep pushing it, and I do believe it'll continue to expand. And you know what, this has really made me think about it is, and it started with your post,

1:27:05we need to support each other more vocally. And when I supported you, like you just said, and I was so excited because what you did, so you called it support, I just promoted it out of love. I didn't look for anything in return. And every other creator succeeding is a great thing. It helps all of us. And so I really am gonna think of ways, I don't wanna hear unionized and stuff like that. And the many people say stuff like that, it just turns them off, but a good kind of network, you said it, and I don't wanna go, word of mouth. Word of mouth. We've said Cobra here 20 times already, we're gonna say it a few more. Hopefully people can go, they can check it out, they can become more familiar with your work, please get it, please put it in front of the camera. Now, are you up to like issue 60? I did 50 issues. 50. 50 issues. I mean, that's insane, that is insane.

1:28:07This hardcover collects at first 12, I got the second one back here. Now, let's get into your influences real quick. I don't wanna, I'm all about wearing my influences on my sleeve. I don't know if some of them are obvious or not, but walk me through your biggest influences. Oh, it's everyone, but I think if I'd have to pick a top rush, more type of thing, it would be Simon's in as inked by Sam Keith. You know, like I'm about to describe my style. But really, who I love is like Frank Miller. I see it. Even mentioning Miller is kind of mentioning the Beatles being your favorite band. It's like, that's not fair. But Frank Miller is such a huge influence on me. You gifted me this original. I still have it. It's in my portfolio. I just want you to know it will not be something I will be selling ever when you gave it to me. You gave it to me for life. I'll try and show this on a future show. If I didn't bring the art, Adam's artwork that I had, you know,

1:29:08I'm just not having a good couple days here. I'm not bringing this stuff, but I'm telling you, I drew that with love. I drew that. I was so excited. It was all over the page. The Frank Miller thing here. Let's, so my daughter from Miller, Simon's in Chacon, especially in like writing. I really take a lot from Chacon's kind of casual tone. In regards to your inking and you're finishing, I love the variety that you bring. And I see some Simon Beasley. I see some J. Lee early, early, early, J. Lee, the stuff that I, that's the stuff that J. Lee did for me. I see, I see all the stuff that you're saying. Simon's in, I see people. You just haven't lived until you've seen Michelle's freaking. This is so freaking good. It's so incredible. And, um, oh my gosh, I think it was a big one. Keith is a, you cultivated all these different back stories.

1:30:11Um, you got big Ed Piscord to do a, a cool, single page. I mean, you, you did such a great job. I, I am the one who was the, the beneficiary here. Is this Yannis? I, I don't know my glasses on. Yeah. Yeah. Just, you, you cultivated this. Um, I, I felt the love on every page. I'm so proud of it. And I'm going to now push the crap. Like honestly, just going and getting this off the bookshelf, I was like, yeah, you need to wave this around a lot more. And I will. Um, and, and I'll talk about Copa and I'll talk about other, you know, independent works as much. Is there, is there somebody we didn't cover in, in regards to, because I see everyone you've mentioned that, that Walt Simonson, and by Sam Keith, Keith, Giffin, Frank Miller. I do want to actually stop on the Frank Miller. So my daughter, 22, grew up a total swifty. Okay. Singing, rocking out with her to the red album. And I took her to the 2018 that wrote at the Rose Bowl with her

1:31:16and her three friends made a big, it was the weekend Deadpool, uh, two was out in theaters. I had a signing that afternoon. We had the car pick us up. I wanted to make it a big deal for her. So then the air is tour comes along. And now my, my daughter is starting to say stuff to me like, isn't Taylor Swift bigger than Michael Jackson ever was. And I'm like, don't say that. Like don't, don't say stuff you don't know about. You know, she, Taylor Swift is a juggernaut. I believe that she is on par with MJ. But so then the MJ movie comes out this last year. And I saw people, uh, we went on opening night and. Three teenage girls stood up in their chairs next to my wife and I and started dancing and I loved it. I thought it was so fun. And I'm like, they are experiencing Michael Jackson for a first, first time to this movie that's going to go on to do a billion dollars. Huge biggest biography.

1:32:16Where does that have to do with Frank Miller? You mentioned the Beatles. My wife argues with me all the time. It is a constant debate. I tell her that the most important person left on planet earth in the, in the culture of pop. So not politics. That, that, where everyone's going to stop for 24 to 48 hours and just. It's going to resonate. This Paul McCartney, the, the, the, the. The enough boomers to Gen Xers, millennials were handed down that work. Their work is the least. Reflective in Gen Z. And now I have my nephews, Gen A. But I said to, so, so based on Dylan, because I, Dylan is in the top five of like the biggest pit. We do, we do deathless when we drive around. So now everyone, Julian Robb talk about who are the biggest people? Dolly Parton was in our top 10 for the last couple of years. Um, there are, I've, I've got Dylan, obviously, uh, Paul McCartney,

1:33:18Elton John, these are, these are huge names that will shake the world, shake the world. But a lot of people who don't know and don't give a shit about the Beatles are going to hit with those movies in one year. Uh, that, that, uh, Sam, I forget the director who is, uh, who is directing them. But, uh, and you've got that. He's doing four of them. He's doing four Beatles movies and they are going to be bigger than Dylan, maybe not as big as MJ, but there's going to be four of them. And the whole world's going to be humming Beatles tunes and acting as if they just discovered them or loved them their own types of lives. But that is going to become. And so when you say Frank Miller, it's up to us to point people in that direction. I won't, no, I actually, I'll, every time someone tries to body Frank, I write an editorial. I put it on my page. I, I, because let's, let's go there. Arthur Adams also, uh, who's also very close with, with Frank. Um, Arthur mentioned during our interview that he would never have the courage to play

1:34:18with his style as much. And I, I see Frank going in an underground style right now for the last five years. What about you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a, it's a, an evolution of Sin City is simplified and it's bigger and it's cartoon or actually from Dark Knight strikes again. It's Sin City's Dark Knight strikes again and then whatever he's doing now, which is just the sort of distilling of shapes. He just doesn't care about anything but pure shapes in a weird way. That's kind of what Dickco did. Uh-huh. Ultimately, those books that you got, it's just sort of, it just marks, he's just mark making. And that's what Miller's doing. And I think it's just off putting the people because maybe it's a way it's colored or it's rendered digitally. Or I don't know, maybe people's values are different, you know, they're just expecting the Wolverine ink by Rubenstein, Arab Miller, because that's a little bit more polished. It's a little bit more together. Cut till now, it's just this sort of like cubist thing.

1:35:20It's just a weirdo thing. Like you said, an underground sensibility. I love that stuff. I love both. That's the thing. We could love both. I could love that early, daredevil stuff and I could love the new drawing that he just put up whatever a month ago. But as long as people are talking about it, that's good. But those who don't know him, I mean, or know the context of his impact, I mean, I discovered dark night returns when I was like eight when I shouldn't have. It was in a bin and my store should have sold it to me, but thankfully they did and it changed my life. It changed all of our numbers. Like number three, I was like, oh, my what is this? It was the best thing ever. So again, I'm Arthur is slightly older than me. So there's three generations of us. We all, so I'm doing, I'm doing all these podcasts, banking them, talking to you, hours after talking to him. And he, you know, in the interview, he's like, oh, it changed me. Dark night changed to everybody in a way that no, I understand.

1:36:23And here, here's, I do want to like the flowers that I give to absolute Batman is because it's become the handshake for a generation. You look absolute Batman. I love him. I love absolute. I love absolute. It's what happened with uncanny X-Men. You couldn't have a conversation in business unless you had some working knowledge what was going on for the 10 years of the Claremont run. Absolute Batman has definitely been so powerful. I know three different Batman creators, creative teams who are, were surprised that they couldn't get volume because they were in the shadow of what absolute Batman has achieved. But at the end of the day, you know, like I've said, when you drive off the lot, that man stays on the lot as you take the highway and get on the freeway and go home. In, young blood is in my car, profits in my car, wherever I'm going all day long and everything else that I'm creating right now, copers in your car.

1:37:27These characters come along with us. It's the rich experience of creator ownership. And I believe in comics. I believe people have returned to tactile the enjoyment of having a tactile this new generation, the back end of Gen Z and the earliest examples of generation A are going, hey, these are kind of cool. I don't know how long it's going to last. But I also know as the guys who've been buying my work and the guys who are buying your work in 2012, 2013, 2014, they've got an appetite and they'll fill it and they routinely say that it's not being filled in traditional ways, which is why they're turning, as you said, to crowdfunding. Talk to me about crowdfunding. What's your experience with it? It's been minimal, to be honest. I ran one a long, long time ago for one of my pre-copera books.

1:38:29I did a four-in-issue of Zegas, which is another title that I have that fanographics has since collected, but that was my opening into self-publishing. And it wasn't really my bag, to be honest. But I might try to, again, well, I don't know. I don't even want to say that because it's not even, I don't even really think about it because it seems like so much extra work outside of the actual creation of the work. And I'm sort of, like I mentioned, I'm in that naive, like, arena right now where I'm just like, I just want to draw, I just want to create, once I'm ready, we'll see how I approach it. I might do a Kickstarter, I might not. I might just go back to subscriptions, personal subscriptions. I might... Are you launching a new project? I'm currently working on a new title, a couple new titles. Yeah, but I do have, like, my Copa Press, which is the name of my publishing name, essentially, is Copa Press. So I'm expanding the line.

1:39:29I want to do new things. I want to do new characters, new bodies of work. Maybe reprint some things, maybe put out things about other people. We'll see, but right now I'm just drawing... I have fresh new pages that I'm working on right now. One set's up and running. Up and running. I will be being the drum for all that stuff. Kickstarter? I don't know. Maybe part of the name. Sure. I don't... I'm going to really encourage you to do more live streaming. Get those accounts. Do it. I don't know how you do it. Because doing those six GIF and episodes that I mentioned was such a killer. Oh my God. Oh my God. I don't know how you do it every week. Twice a week. On top of the livestream. Like it's crazy. No, but I need you to get a whatnot account and I'll promote you. And I want people to get to know your work. And there's... Look, man, those relationships are crazy. And those...

1:40:31When I mean crazy, let me be honest, the support that my base has given me is everything. And there's days that I can quantify everything I'm doing by the pure purchasing power that they put towards me that is validating that they like what I'm doing. Without them, I'm done. I could not put my hands in Marvel or DC. And I also want to give a shout out to Image Thomas. And you know what? When you put up your post about... And really what it was is a sadness. And I felt that sadness about that there are bodies of work that are unknown that potentially may be unknown forever. You know, not all of us are having movies made of our creations, our lives. And so when you posted that, look, I felt that same sadness. And I didn't feel it for me. It's for these bodies of work that... So if you love Dork and you don't get enough Dork, I would pivot you to Elfquest.

1:41:35I think that will scratch your itch. But it's going to have to be Elfquest collections. And Wendy Peaney in her prime is amazing. Is phenomenal. She was just spectacular. And from there publishing in print, Warp Graphics is where I first encountered calling Durand's work and a... It's not a distant thunder. It's a distant soil. The distant soil. And when you made your post, Alex Cox from Image Comics wanted to drop in and say, hey, everybody, I should just meekly raise my hand and point out that image is entirely independent and creator-owned. And you were like, no doubt, just like Fanta. But what I'm asking is, who will tell the new audience about it after the creators are gone? And Alex says, I was actually meaning to respond to someone specifically in the thread. This is funny. This is what happens. It became my end of the sentence. And I just want to say, for everyone in image, the staff who works really hard to please

1:42:3760 masters, because image will give you a great sales pitch and they mean it. And they're like, we can do this much or we can do this much. We'll let you tell me. And then, because I see it on the socials, I see how I see some days how their social media team is trying to, because one week is loaded and they have to get 20 FOCs blasting through across threads and socials. And so I just want to give a shout out to them. I know how hard they work. I know how they want to succeed for every single creator. The results are never going to be all the same. They're always going to be different. But you know what, have I never met Brett Bean? It would not affect the fact that I am thrilled that his entire life changed this year. His entire life has changed with the success of Dork. And like, that gives me such joy and makes me want to keep crack and add it.

1:43:41And Michelle, I'm excited by the new titles that you've got coming out. Look, the last thing I need is to do a new title, but I'm doing one, two, but I'm excited by what you're going to put out. You said plural, tight holes. Yes. Yes. By the way, shout out to image. You're right. Without them, this wouldn't be like this beautiful hardcover book. I don't know if that's coming through, but yeah, yeah, no, no, for sure. That's this is the second volume. I mean, this is, I'm so proud of this. I can't say. I know it's older. I mean, tell me, I'm going to tell my audience. If you like the 90s X force cyber force in the 80s, suicide squad, all of the different creators that Michelle, you have a very unique style. I want to say, I also, I also want to say, Wilson, Kevin, I see some Wilson, Kevin, you're a pinking. The way that you utilize lines, it's exciting.

1:44:42That's why I'm invested in your work. Anybody who loves those kind of badass action adventure is paramilitary word. You should seek out everything. You should seek out everything you do. Copa will bring a big smile to your face. Like like bloodstrike did. And again, you know what? So here's, here's, I should have said this 90 minutes ago, and we're wrapping up here. If I don't come back to young blood in 2025, it is going to become the justice machine. That is what I, the times I got there just in time because I bought every issue of the justice machine. But if I say the justice machine to people, unless you were alive in 1985 and somehow, of course, you found your way to them because you're curious. You have a curi, you have a comic book historian's curiosity. You want to learn from the tracks that were laid down before.

1:45:43Young blood was on its way to becoming the justice machine, having not been produced for six years, but the culture is changing so fast. And, and you know, the fact that you are, when you did bloodstrike, bloodstrike might have been in its justice machine era, but I'm, I'm, but this helped pop it out and we're going to keep doing more with it. And this will always be part of the collections and the history of the book. And I'm so grateful that you like literally gave this time of day. And again, people, people love this. They, they, but it's also a book that struggled in a very busy time in the business to break through. And, and I felt it as the guy who was publishing alongside image. But I know those who discovered it, those who discover that book love it to death. They really, it's almost like a cult hit in a weird way. But it's like, it's still finding new audience, same thing with copper. It's like, those who know about it and love, they love it. And it's, it's flattering.

1:46:44It's weird. It's cool. You know, I'm just, I'm just as long as, well, you could find in my style is that there's a, an intense love for this art form. Oh, sure. Love comic books. Right. And I utilize that power to make, it makes, to make stories the way I draw the way I color, the way I lay out things. I mean, it's all in service of that mania that I have. Look at that coming back. Look at these gestures. Look at that storytelling. Like, oh, I have influence by the 90s. And I'm just, that's a blanket statement because I don't want to single you out. That's a little too weird. I'm just like, but, but I'll be upfront about it. Like you know that you're an influence on me. I could spot specific pages and panels and scenes that are very Rob life-held. Right. And you can do it all in general. I was doing that before I even did blood strike. I mean, there's like, you could see it kind of. That's very kind of you say that's very kind of you say.

1:47:45I mean, it's not even, I mean, I think it's in the work. I think it's August the war. See, that's very beastly to me. That's very Simon Beasley. I see that. And it turned me on when I say that it turned me on. That you have a tremendous energy. You can do loud. You can do quiet. There's no style of storytelling you aren't excelling it. You really are a student of the game. I do believe you have a very unique style. But within your style, you are able, just like Frank does. Just like Frank does. That's an end on my biggest Frank Miller pet peeve. Is when people say, and Klaus would not own this either. People say it was Klaus Johnson doing it all. I show them the tight pencils of the middle issues. And Steve Mitchell was inking Frank on projects. Terry Austin, Joseph Rubenstein. I'm missing a crucial one here. I'm going to say Bob McLeod.

1:48:45Bob McLeod. You saved me. That's it. No four different very Neil Adams rendering Dick Giordano instruction from Joe Rubenstein state of the art. The Christmas line. Joe Renafine Terry Austin super textured. Klaus Johnson. Steve Mitchell kind of in that Joe somewhere in that Joe Rubenstein. Uh, uh, uh, Klaus and then Bob McLeod again, very super rendered. All of those inks Bob. Why a check Tom Palmer on the Spider-Man annual Bob why check on the Marvel team upster. And you know what they all look exactly like Frank Miller. So this idea that one guy carried him to grit no Frank was just so freaking good. And at the time he was inking his own covers, finding his voices and anchor. Like you said, since city, since city suddenly you're like, he's doing Mobius. He's doing Storanco. Oh, this is familiar Frank. And then I mean, he's not like like Art said, I think he's the boldest of us.

1:49:50He's been the boldest of all of us for over 45 years. And we are the beneficiaries. So when I see him do some rad, see, you said shape, I all go shape and gesture. Yes, because he has the best gestures. Uh, I don't know. I just dig it because I'm like, this is the phase where I now I don't need more of this. This, this right here on my rack, it exists. It's brilliant. He chose to keep furthering himself. But if he since city that nine years is some of my favorite work that he's ever done. Yeah, yeah. You know, so, so all of us should, should feel, you know, to push the envelope. My pushing of the envelope is to pick up quills and not ink with markers anymore. So I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I'm doing it way down here. I'm not doing it on macro level like Frank, but um, hey, you know what? I really. I'm committed to pushing other creators. And also being very vocal, your six, five part gifin.

1:50:54I sat in my bean bag with my drawing table and had it playing on our giant 80 screen TV, 80 inch and just watch you cover every panel. Listen to your narrative. If you admit, you know, I live through all of that. I lived people like Frank. I was in the streets one year later style was immediately polarizing. There were the I loves it and there were the I hate this. And it and then he changed again, as you know, yeah, moving on. He was also super brave. Yeah, yeah. But if we don't talk about them, quite frankly, no one does. Right. Well, as long as we're having these conversations, whoever stumbles upon them and they're inspired, listen, I just discovered three new people reading old issues of X mutants. Boom. I had no idea who they existed. I had no idea who they were. They're just a blip and I love their styles.

1:51:54And I have and it was because I was just reading old issues of a comic book. I had an X Mutants comic with my elf quests. I had actually number one because I grabbed it. That's that's where I met Ron Limb when he was drawing that. Who are some of the other talents that you discovered? There's a fella called I might mispronounce his name, Uriel Katan, okay, who's sort of like a good girl artist and drew covers for new humans and he did the X mutants annual. And there's other guys called Mark Matos or Mato's, okay, he drew the shattered earth chronicle or whatever. Again, it's like they came and they went, you know, but Michelle, I cannot tell him, I'm just, I'm just, it's like Marvel died for me in a B 384. John was still doing fantasy for Walt was the bright shining star Marvel on his store

1:52:57run. George was gone. Frank Miller was now doing Ronin. You know, Starlin was gone. It was everything was looking as much house style as it was ever going to look. It wasn't until like Rick Lee and Arty and Mike Manila and Arthur Adams walked through the door. 83 to 85. I'm my most curious. And that's when I'm buying so many independent comics and all those eclipse, chemico, mat Wagner, that's the kind of stuff. And I do. I so, yeah, I'm so glad we got to talk about you. Please keep hanging out there, man. I really appreciated the fact that you were like, this concerns me. And these bodies of work are exceptional. They're exceptional bodies of work. They are. And so I love that you're. Desired to see them put on the spotlight.

1:53:59Had you post publicly and now we talked about this for almost two hours and it's not nostalgia. It's not like, oh, it's back when I just. I hate that word. No, no, no, it's, it stands up to anything. It's excellent. I can flag. It's like I say to people, but Godfather isn't great because it was made in 1972. That's bullshit, right? Like, John's great. Cause it's made in 1975. It's just an exceptional piece of work. I say this all the time. It'll cut people's legs out from underneath them. The minute it's shared because there are people who just want to go. It's just, I hate that. I literally that just sets me off in the worst possible way. Because it can't. Excellence! So I happen to look at a family of books. And I really studied some of the faces and then I immediately went. I had been looking at this earlier, and I'm gonna kind of give away the family of books, but what the hell, I don't care. It's not like people don't wanna throw rocks at me all the time.

1:54:59Here's another rock, throw it at me. Come on, I know you took the day. Oh, there it is. So I then went to Heritage and took this photo of this one panel. These faces were drawn in 1978. They are spectacular. There's zippetone, there's that incredible lighting effect. There's the Christmas of the line, but these are brilliant John Byrne, Terry Austin, Paces. It's drawn in 1978. Stuff that I'm looking at on this family of books is just half-assed. It looked like, look, I'll be honest, I had to tell an artist the other day, I didn't hire you because I want you to go fast. I want you to be great. Please don't try. And I have not told you you needed to do 10 pages in seven days, five days, make them great. Let's make this great. And then everything you want will come of this

1:55:59and I can pay you upfront. But it's like slow down. But if I'm just gonna be another mark for you, because I think sometimes that's when I'm seeing another company. And what I was told, and I'll name him, CV Syblesky told me two years ago. One of the last times, the last time I talked to him, is like, you know Rob, we just don't have the editors that have the knowledge to offer the instruction for all of these new talents. And sometimes you got to stop and talk to your artists and redirect them. And every single guy I work with, there is not, it's not every page, but every issue I am asking them to, that's not exactly what this needs here. Let's do this. I'm gonna bring my experience to bear here. And I believe I know something about connecting with an audience, so I'm gonna share this with you where I think this could be shot from a better angle. Because so much of it is the storytelling. So I just feel like, you know, the medium is,

1:57:02I don't believe it's healthy. I'll leave it here. I don't believe we're in the healthiest place. But showing you that 1978 drawing is not nostalgia. Those are just two damn good faces. And nostalgia has nothing to do with how well those are drawn. And they're just, and they're gonna be great faces 20 years from now. That's right. So like I said, we'll continue to lift each other up and promote each other and look all, very excited that we had this talk today. Thanks, man. I really appreciate it. Because I definitely hear a lot of what you're saying. I want people to know that social media is a tool that they should be using to connect. And I believe it's only going with the segmentation is not going away. There is not going to be a new bunch of stores opening. And those stores are gonna continue. It happened in the late 90s. I gotta carry more toys. I gotta carry more. They're gonna diversify as well in the pursuit of, you know,

1:58:02staying profitable. But we as creators have to be empowered. And so thanks for helping to empower us today, my friend. Of course, yeah, stay positive and uplift and spread the word. Thanks for having me here. This is awesome. I mean, I've been missing, you know, having this kind of dialogue too. So it's like, it's, it's, it's, let's talk, let's talk more regularly. Let's talk, let's talk more regularly, whether it's on the show or not. But I really appreciate you taking it. I know you hustled. I kind of gave you a short order on this. I appreciate you being flexible. And I want everybody go support Michelle's work, go get, seek these copres out. You will not regret it. They're fantastic. I own all of them. Of course, the one that I'm gonna have most nearby is the body of work he did for me. And if you don't have it, let's get that. Let's change that too. More copra, more, and what was your G.I. Joe stuff that you did? What was that called? I did a G.I. Joe mini called Sierra Moiret. I think it's a... Sierra, that's it. That's it.

1:59:02Was that what Joe Casey or no? That was all me. That was all you. That's right. I think Joe Casey was excited about it. He was the one to tell me that you were doing it. That's why I associate him. Yeah, that looks a little different. That was more like inspired by Saturday morning animation. It's very clean line, very clear. Dude. You know, but it was a blast too. And by the way, if anyone's made it this far, hit up my Patreon because I really go, I do intense deep dives on all sorts of cartoonists. I mean, what's your Patreon? Just my name. Just look me up. Michelle Feefe. Okay. Patreon. Guys, no, they're gonna make it here. It's all good. It's all good. Here. The podcast I listened to run between two and a half and three hours. And no less than the Todd father said, your shows are too long. He told me this two years ago and I said, do you listen to any other podcast besides mine? He says, no, I said, I listen to podcasts that are three hours long.

2:00:03The fans of this show are gonna listen to this show all the way through. So go look, I'm gonna actually end up putting that in the, in the, I'm gonna, this is great. Now I can trust me. I will shape this before it loads. But my friend, I'm gonna say goodbye to you. I'm gonna thank you for your time. Let's, let's do this again sooner than later. And, and let's just keep rooting each other on. Thank you, Robert, you're all. Again, thank you to Michelle for joining us today and for having this extended conversation about creators and really all of the hurdles that creators are up against. Not only existing creators, but again, the concern that, that this incredible body, these incredible bodies of work that are so influential, that they'll not only entertain you, they will 1,000% lift you up with their quality of their work. And if you are a creator who has never encountered them, they will definitely show you a new

2:01:09bag of tricks. I mean, this is incredible, incredible work by incredible creators. The media world, in the movie world, in the cinephile world, which I also have a, a foot in as a, as a, as a fan, the concern is physical media because so many movies and so many great productions from the past are not available anymore. You can't grab them on, on, on, on a streaming platform. This last year, I had to buy at least six different movies, dramas, popular dramas, starring big stars, comedies and sci-fi movies. And I went to eBay to secure a few. I went to, uh, uh, uh, uh, different avenues because Amazon didn't have any of them. So, so I was going through specialty sites in order to, uh, to get physical copies of the movies that are not available on Hulu, on Apple, on Amazon, on any of the different

2:02:12streaming platforms. They're no longer in the HBO catalog, the Netflix catalog. You guys literally, this is something that is happening on the film side as well. So, what we did today is really pick up and discuss, uh, all of the ways that works that we value now and works that are certainly to come, uh, the, the challenges that those works faced in, in being preserved and being passed down and being known, just, just being known. Uh, thank you again. Thanks for Michelle. Come by. Thanks. Thanks to all of you. Uh, I, I just want and, and continue to wish the best for you. I will do a couple more, uh, I, I, I am reminded that I have a CGC, uh, signing coming up in early November. I think you can go to the CGC website right now and you look up the Rob Lifel, uh, signature series or the Rob Lifel signing. They'll have your interview, they'll have your details. There has been a ton of work put out.

2:03:13Since my last CGC signing a year ago, and I'm not going to be out on the road. So if you want to get your book signed, uh, my last CGC signing happened before Youngwood number one in 2025 came out. It, it, it, there has not been, uh, a signing for two, three, four, five, what, what turned out to be issue 100, uh, eventually number one will be falling, uh, right under the deadline the bad rock books, anything in my catalog snake eyes, Captain America Avengers, X, Force, New Mutants, the specialty annuals I did, the what if anything that you dig, anything in the extreme catalog, uh, uh, profit, brigade, bloodstrike, all those books, go to the CGC website, look up the Rob Lifel signature series, the signature, the, the signature opportunity and, uh, make sure you get your stuff in on time. There are remarks available. There are specialty signatures, the life held chisel, the blood splatter chisel, all the stuff that you normally get from me on my live streams is going to be in that CGC signing.

2:04:13Speaking of live stream, if you're not following me on whatnot and interacting with me and getting all the different exclusive variants that I have, uh, for you each and every week, correct that now, go to what not, get the app. It is the premier live streaming app. Follow Rob Lifel. Uh, we have done, we have shipped 30,000 units, 30,000 orders. And, uh, over four years, and we have a five star rating for a reason. We take you your order, uh, what we take it very seriously, you are the king, you are our priority. We exist to please you, but again, so many unique, uh, exclusives, none of which I brought to show you today, but go to what not. Uh, I'm generally on twice a week. If you give me a follow, you'll be notified when I go live and I look forward to seeing you on one of our various live streams, which is very much like this, except with hundreds of people talking to me the entire time. Uh, it's not, it's, it's, it's a, it's a discipline for sure.

2:05:14Guys, I hope you do well. I hope you have a great rest of your week. Uh, get some rest, relax, spend time with friends and family. Uh, get off that grindstone, maximize the time away that you can just get inspired. Go see that movie. Go out to that great dinner, grab coffee with your friends, have a great dessert. Man, I had some killer cupcakes the other day and I, and I wish I could talk more about them. Uh, but, but I just all I can tell you is they were, they exploded with incredible flavor. Uh, and I'm sure incredible calories. Who cares? Um, that, that's the point of, of having a cheat meal or a cheat something. Guys, swing on back, catch me. We're still here. I will be right under that tree sitting on the curb waiting for you to swing by, swing that door open so I can jump in with you wherever you listen. We will most certainly, we will absolutely drum roll, please, I hear it. We will inevitably, inevitably, we will talk again real soon.