JEPH LOEB!

0:00Welcome to the Rob Life Build Show featuring Rob's revisions. I bring five decades experience in the world of comic books and entertainment. I am not some bystander watching the industry go by. I am a full-blown participant having contributed lasting memorable works to the world of comic books that have informed the business and the art of this brilliant medium. If it's happening and streaming in movies, in comic books, in games, we are talking about it or discussing it right here. Hey everybody and welcome to another edition of the Rob Life Build Show featuring Rob's revisions. I am your host. I am Rob Life Build. I have been at this game for close to 42 years. I am chugging along, closing it on 42 years. We've heard it at the top. Just published comics, written, drawn, produced.

1:04The comic book industry, pop culture, thrills me, fuels me, and I am so happy each and every day to share it with you on this show when we do our shows. And thank you for all of you who are listening, whether it's Apple Spotify, Podbean, I Heart Radio or our YouTube channel, which with so many of you are checking out. Thank you so much for coming on board for listening to the show, for championing the show. Word amount is everything and we are just so thankful for all that you give us in terms of Word amount and all of the positive input that you've given our show. Today, I'm going to get right into our opening because I have to talk to all of you about the absolute, incredible, amazing Lucas Museum of Narrative Arts, Gala. I already told you that I went there and I talked to you about everything that I saw, but I did not know.

2:04I was not aware that one Mr. George Lucas himself would throw this giant opening Gala and that I would get an invitation to be a part of this. It was so exciting to receive the invitation and form my wife Joy. I was taking my wife to the museum later this week. I'm a member, whatever. I've got my subscription to the museum, but I was like, you know, Joy, we're going to get to go to this and we've been to a lot of, been fortunate. I want to always, always underscore we've been super fortunate to be part of so many incredible events and celebrations like this Gala. Let me tell you something. Having been to a couple of vanity fairs, there is nothing that is ever compared to what I was just a part of.

3:06And as Joy and I arrived and they, you know, valed the car and walked up to the carpet, I was like, what in the world? I knew this was going to be big, but as one reporter for one of the trade magazines joked, if a, if something terrible happened at this Gala, Hollywood would have to start over from zero. Let's start with the A list filmmakers that were there to celebrate George's incredible narrative museum and talk a little bit about the narrative part of the title of that museum in a minute, but you got Steven Spielberg on the board, Greta Gerwig on the board. And attendance, I think Guillermo del Toro on the board. You had, you had Christopher Nolan, Denis Villeneuve, you had Spike Lee, Robert Rodriguez, John Favreau, Ron Howard. I'm going to leave somebody super important in it. What I mean, super important, I mean a super important storyteller because this is about storytellers and some of the greatest storytellers of all time, people who have just, you know,

4:14inspired us. We're all in attendance. And then suddenly I'm standing next to after the opening address and there's this incredible like about three church choirs under the direction of Vrel singing happy. And when I say happy, I mean like a church version of because I'm happy. I mean, it was, it was amazing. Queen Latifa spoke to us, George Lucas spoke to us, he talked to us about the narrative arts. So I'll just get right to it. He said when he first was going to open and wanted to do this, this, this, this museum that people are like, what do you mean narrative arts? The Lucas museum and many people thought it's just the Lucas museum. And he said of the narrative arts. And they're like, what, what is narrative arts in the narrative arts is storytelling. It's the championing of story and storytellers and people who've never had their works on the walls of museums. And Steven Spielberg commented how Norman Rockwell had not, you know, been accustomed to his,

5:17his work being on the walls of museums and certainly not in the way that they're displayed here. Jack Kirby, okay. John or me to senior the one representation of John or me to senior a ghostwriter illustration that I actually did locate this time. It is very small, very easy to miss. Neil Adams, okay. Frank Miller. Mark the Titans that are on the walls and guys, I have no doubt that as the time, as time marches on, we will get all manner of incredible comic book illustrators and other fantasy illustrators. I've told you and Spielberg admitted in an interview that I watched before jumping on with you today. He has, when I first went and I think I've talked about it here on the show in 1992, when I first went to Amblin to his studios on the universal lot and met him. I was shocked at the six Norman Rockwells that are on display behind thick bulletproof glass,

6:17but you can stare and look at them and he said, he said that he, Steven Spielberg said he got into Norman Rockwell first. But George quickly followed and, and exceeded, exceeded his own collection. So that, that's pretty incredible. But he said that all of these different artists are not accustomed. Now some of them are accustomed, but also other than Rockwell, I mentioned the frizzettas. And if Steven Spielberg is regaled by the amount of Norman Rockwells and there's dozens that that Mr. Lucas has on display at the narrative arts museum, the frizzetta is like a treasure trove. And I talked about it on the earlier Lucas film. But suddenly, join I, we start taking the elevators up. Joy, I'm so excited to share this with my wife. She's all of this incredible art, the manga section, the Rockwells, the bank sees on the fifth floor. I am standing next to Leonardo DiCaprio.

7:19I, we slip away. Everyone is in the Norman Rockwells and kind of the painterly sections. When I mean everyone, I mean Al Pacino, I mean Robert De Niro, I mean Michael B. Jordan, I mean, I mean Toe for Grace. I mean, Governor Gavin Newsom, Mayor Bass of Los Angeles, Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, okay, Queen Latifa, the Nicholas Cage, I spoke to Nicholas Cage. I mean guys, my son called me up and said, who wasn't there? It was this incredible turnout celebrating the arts. But while everyone was in the painterly section, Woody Harrelson, Vin Diesel, again, they're all coming to me. I slipped away to show the comic book art and I thought, oh my gosh, join in I have the comic book art section all to ourselves. And we thought we did. And I turned the corner and there is Leonardo DiCaprio, who I did not see come in with his beautiful girlfriend, I believe.

8:20He is standing there just talking about our crumbs, book of Genesis, the adaption of Genesis, the first book of the Bible that he did that we've talked about so many times on this show. And he is talking about it. And the next thing I know I am in talks with Leonardo DiCaprio about comic book artwork. And I wanted very much to ask him if he still bought comic books because when he was younger, it is well chronicle that he did. But I just couldn't other than commenting with him alongside the art crumbs and he was totally cool. And then he would move along. But I said, you know what, I'm going to go show joy, the how fosters, the Alex Raymond, the Prince Valiant, the Tarzan, the Flash Gordon art, and move away. But he lingered just joy life, Rob Laifeld, Leonardo DiCaprio and his partner are wandering the comic book section until as we are leaving Nicolas Cage inners. And at this point, I don't know why I just decided to approach Nicolas Cage and say, Nicolas,

9:21are you still buying comics and comic art? And he said, no, you know, man, I was so into it, but I don't know if you know, he says to me, I was robbed. Everything was stolen. I said, I did read about that. I'm so sorry. But I did see Nicolas Cage at the amazing Las Vegas comic con. Maybe 2019 attending my buddy Jimmy J show, buying high graded, you know, CGC comics and art. And he's like, yeah, you know, I'm still into it a little bit, not anywhere near where I was. And I said, well, hey, great, great, great to see you here. And isn't this a great museum? And he's like, yeah. And he was just about to go into the deep dive in the comic book section and joy and I exited. But that is the kind of incredible night it was. There was a drone show on the roof outside of the restaurant where people I'm sure that thing is booked for months and months to come. And we saw these incredible drones in the sky become R2D2 in the Millennium Falcon end,

10:22but the only superhero that was assembled, they reassembled Jack Kirby's Captain America. Jack Kirby's, I think it's linked by Sid Shores. Do not believe for one minute, guys, as much as I love Stanley, he did not create Captain America. And as Jack Kirby, their art was in the sky and everyone to see on this incredible. And I'm talking 12, 13, 100 people. No less than Tyler Perry walked over and sat right next to me and said, I'm so tall, man, I can't be blocking everybody's view. I hope you know, I'm like, dude, have a seat. Just Elizabeth Warren, the incredible songwriter was standing right alongside us. I'm not star struck. I'm just sharing with you the amount of creative talent. Tyler Perry is a storyteller. Elizabeth Warren is a storyteller. This was a night for storytellers. It was cool. Katy Perry, maybe one of the biggest names there with her incredible impact on pop and with music and her bow. We're standing right there.

11:23Everyone looking to the skies as the drones created these incredible images, but they made Jack Kirby's Captain America move. And oh my gosh, I did not see any one of the member of his family there, but they should be proud. George Lucas has made them proud. There is a one single Jack Kirby Captain America piece in the museum. It is brilliant. It is awesome. I look forward to seeing more Jack Kirby pieces hung in that museum as as we continue. Harrison Ford, Callista Flawcart. You know, the producer, Jerry Brookheimer was there. And again, storyteller after storyteller. And I really did not believe that I was going to be able to make the incredible acquaintance of one Mr. George Lucas, the Maestro, but he entered the room. I was standing right there. His bodyguards signaled to me that it would be okay for me to approach him. Obviously, George is the curator and a very important person. He's going to have his bodyguard resembled and was as tall as trust me on this because

12:26I took my pictures with Russell Westbrook and Magic Johnson that night. So I am aware in the immediacy of how tall these cats are. George's bodyguard was the Kenby Matumbo size height. And George welcomed me in. And I just thanked him for inspiring me as a child to become a storyteller. Besides, Jack Kirby, George Lucas is the single biggest influence of my work. I've told you, without Boba Fett, there is never ever a Deadpool. I didn't know what a mercenary was. I didn't know what a bounty hunter. None of that was made aware to me until I engaged. So I was able to thank George Lucas profusely. He was super kind. He said, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for being here tonight. And then of course, I peeled off. I didn't want to, but he was very warm. I had a spectacular chat with Christopher Nolan. Again, just joy, myself Christopher Nolan and his partner. Emma, they were in the bank sees suddenly I am alone with the bank sees.

13:30I was not prepared for the sharp wit and the ridiculous humor that one Mr Christopher Nolan possessed. Just so funny. I'm not I, we had about a 10 minute chat super relaxed talking cinema, storytelling, the museum. It was a magical night for storytellers. And I am so grateful that I was part of it and that I was included. And today we are talking to a premier storyteller in the world of television, movies and comic books. I first came upon Joseph Loeb III with his credit on Commando and Teen Wolf in cinema. Maybe you saw him on small bill, his name on small bill on heroes, unlost. Or you've read the long Halloween or hush or dark victory or red Hulk or Superman for all seasons. Guys, Jeff Loeb was one of the most accomplished writers in the medium, a, a, a, literally a pantheon level talent over the last 30 plus years.

14:35He is also a great friend of mine. He is like family to me. We had a great chat about his career, his impact and some fun stories. And I very much hope that you enjoy the talk that you are about to engage in with myself. And one, Joseph Loeb III, best known to you as Jeff Loeb coming at you. Enjoy this talk that I had with the illustrious storytelling talent that is one Mr. Jeff. Loeb everybody. I could not be more excited to be seated seated with one Mr. to our family. Joseph Loeb III, do you Jeff Loeb, amazing talent, amazing friend. Thank you for joining us and talking to us today, Jeff. It's my pleasure. We've been trying to do this. I don't have the funny part about it. We tried this two times before and I didn't know how to use the podcast. So it's on me.

15:35The funny thing is that at any point I would be more technically proficient than anyone. But thankfully, I do have a chase life held in my life who runs down and says, look, let me handle this for you, dad. No, Jeff, you're not alone. Lots of people. I appreciate that you got up to snow for the software. This is a great platform. It gives us a great show. I'm going to tell you where I want to start. I met you at WonderCon. I came up to you. I was very effusive in my praise for what you were doing on cable and ex-force. Primarily, I was really digging cable and I showered you. Did not know that I would be working with you. And where I'm going right here off the top is you should know in the history of this show six seasons now, six, yeah, six years. There is no episode, episodes that got higher ratings, more engagement. It is the winner and still champion. And that is about five months into the show. I spoke of all things heroes reborn.

16:39Of which you came on like, all the ship was being rocked by waves like in the Odyssey, okay? Like we were about to like, and I called you up because things were not, it became clear to me that I was not going to be able to collaborate with some of the people that I had thought about collaborating with. And I called you up, Jeff, and I asked you to come on board and you can take it from here. Well, first I have to go back to that WonderCon. I was literally, this is during the days where I was working primarily with him. I think, you know, I like to always tell people that my career is sort of divided into three parts, which is I started out as a screenwriter. And then I did that for 20 years, then for 10 years, I worked on other people's television

17:40shows. And then for 10 years, I worked for Marvel Television and Rand Marvel Television with an extraordinary staff. And that was the show. I mean, that's basically what it was. Comics were something that were always somehow slipped in there. And you know, at the beginning, I was arrogant and stupid enough to refer to it as my side hustle and shout out to Scott Labdell because when I first met him, I was at the beginning of the age of apocalypse summit, which very few people were allowed to go to. And I said to him, you know, this isn't my real job. I have a real job writing movies. And he looked at me and he went, oh, this isn't your real job. Oh, I see. And at that point, I learned, no, this is part of my life.

18:44This is always been part of my life. And if you look at any of my work, there's comics that are in there. And obviously, as people have pointed out many times, I do homage, movies, the television, and things that the books. And if you find them great, and if you don't find them great, and if you find them somehow that I'm ripping somebody off, I'm not. I'm doing it as a nod and a wink. And if you, you know, if you're stating me that the long Halloween is just the Godfather, I don't think Batman's in the Godfathers, at least the last time I checked. So I may have one or two, I'm literally wandering around. I'm there not as a guest. I am there because really of all people, Arthur Adams was there and he's a pal and I went up to him and I literally, I'm minding my own business.

19:47And as only Rob Lifeeld can, I hear amongst, there must be a hundred thousand people there making all kinds of noise. I hear Jeff Fowl, Jeff Fowl. And I turn around and there's a booth for Rob Lifeeld's hearing board. And the big poster that you had at that time was tap on the left side and then it was like for country, for freedom, for justice, whatever it was. And here was your war. And I was like, Rob Lifeeld, I've never met Rob Lifeeld. This sounds like a cool idea. So I wander over. And the leaves, the literally, and you know me, you know my career. I have met people from every kind of work, kind of thing. I love when you post your celebrity. I saw today you were there. I am with Beth and Johnson here.

20:47I am with George Lucas. I can't believe I'm meeting these people and I'm thinking to myself, yes you can. This is what you love. And I'm not that guy. Like I just, when I meet people, it's like, okay, I'm happy to meet them. And you know, usually it's like, hi, hi, and there we go. You on the other hand, because you are who you are, which is, we'll talk a lot about that in the show, but someone whose personality is just infectious in the best way. And you started talking to me about cable and ex-force. And I was like, what do you mean? You actually read these things. And I didn't know you enough to know how much those characters are meant to you and how you and I have talked about this in the past that they're kind of like your children. And so you always look out for them and you want to make sure what's going on in their lives. And that's why you were reading the book.

21:47It wasn't so much that you were like checking up on Jeff Lowell or anything like that. It was like, you read cable and ex-force, which is very different than me. And I leave a book. I'm gone. And so that's why when people say to me, what do you think about what happened to the riddler after Hush, I don't know what they're talking about. Like, I'm just saying that that doesn't mean I'm not reading Batman. It just means that I'm not looking to see what I did and whether or not it's being accepted as the word that I hate the most in comic books, which is canon. It's not canon, folks. We're telling stories. And some of those stories reflect what other people have done and some of those stories don't. I will always say to people, continuity is my enemy. I'm not good at it at all.

22:50That's my editor's job. But I truly believe that if we're going to survive as a business, and that's what I do see, it's still business, that you have to be able to write comics that you don't have to read 425 comics in order to understand what's happening in New York. It tends to be why I write in the sort of what people have now referred to as the year one era. I love how people have now decided that touch lives in its own universe. Like, it doesn't. We change things. But if that's what people need to do, and when I say people and please still go on Reddit and try to rip me up, like just understand that the person of people who go online

23:52in order to criticize other people, compared to the sales of the book, are tiny. And so it's great. If the 90 people want to spend the rest of their Sunday telling me that I don't know who Jason Todd is, great. I know Jason Todd is in my world. And I'll tell you what, the guy who's writing it after me isn't going to write it like me. And Judd Winick, who is actually the person responsible for bringing back Jason Todd, he wrote it differently than me. Don't. Like, so, hey. So I have a question about you talking, when you said that you don't do what I do and follow characters that you were part of their creation responsible for, like I do with cable. And you're right. I was buying every issue, but I yelled out to you because your issues were special to

24:54me. I felt like the books now had a zing and had a life to them that they didn't have previously. But with any fairness, I have to give a lot of credit. He sure should have exploded at that moment. And, and was finally an artist on that book who lived in the world that you had created. That's a lot of it. It is. There was a lot of hopscotch. He really understood what I understood about the book, which was this is a big, Arnold Schwarzenegger action comedy story that has a fantastic banter between cable and domino. If you get that, you get the book and you got the book reading issues before that that were not about that. That's not a critical system of anybody that came before that. If you love that, some way, yeah, but when I approached the book, I looked at it

25:59and went, oh, I get this completely and it needs to be big and it needs to be actiony. And I was very lucky. Steve Scro started on the book. I think he was much more geared towards X-man, which is why I thought it was so successful. But I think cable took off at that point. It had a huge boost from a apocalypse, but Ian really brought to the page something that he knows a big deal since you had left the book. But you were doing both books, one with Polina, Adam Polina, one with Ian and you were the connector. But I want to ask you about, so are you telling me you don't read other? Okay, first of all, have there been, has Husband featured in any book that you haven't written? I'm not aware. Oh, yeah. Other people have written on it. Actually, there's a whole, I got an sent in omnibus that had all of the appearances that

27:04Husch has been in. So it was like this thick. My image is frozen so I don't know. You're fine. Right. But it's hard for me to go like this and hold up my hand and not know whether or not it's doing anything. Anyway. Now, in fairness, when I started Husch 2, I read everything so that I knew what everybody else had done. I just hadn't done it prior to we're starting Husch 2. So you're telling me, see, and my audience knows that I am not familiar. I do not desperately follow Husch or bad. I don't follow Batman. He's a character that I check in with every once in a while. So that stuff you released. What stuff will you do? You don't, what I mean by released is you don't participate in it. You don't read.

28:05You don't engage. No, that's someone else's job. It's the same kind of way when I was in television series, when I left the series. Sometimes I still watch the show, but like I'm lost, I was completely just a total fanboy, but I stayed because of Damon. OK. I didn't say because I once was on that show or anything that I had done on that show, I wanted to see more of. That didn't make any sense to me. I only engage with Batman when a significant name, a talent attracts me to it. And that's how it's been my whole life. He's not a character that I would ever be a completist of. But if you and Tim did something that made me pick that book up, I that book jumped out. You know, I had to get Hush. I mean, it was too big of an idea that you and Jim Lee would be combining to do this.

29:05And Superman Batman, I was, and we're going to get to this later because I'm so much more of a Superman guy. But so that was fascinating to me because I because I don't track things. I didn't know that there was a separate life for Hush. And so you're telling me that there's an entire collection and and and. Anonymous. Oh my gosh. That day. Yeah. See, so I'm learning stuff. I am, I am not the Batman historian. But yeah, see, I probably would. I do follow anything that I create and put into the combo universe. I will always follow and check out. So it's interesting. So we're going all the way back to Wondercon. When I was competing, honestly, I thought here's your warrant was the rocket to the moon. Like I just thought this is the greatest idea since image. Like it just completely changed what was going to happen.

30:07And there was a little bit of me going, I'm nowhere near any of those gods. Like it was me and it was the me and the Timmy show. It wasn't anything else like that. So when you called and said, do you want to come on and. Shripped the book because it's particularly the first issue was already done. But wait, wait, wait, back up. You did not believe anything was done. This was the best part. This is my favorite part. You're like sure it is. No, and then you said 50 pages. I was like, I zero. And then I told you that my real interest because it'll always be my favorite comic. Was the Avengers. Yeah. And you said, yeah, let me work on that. I can't promise you that. And I said, well, that's where I would go and I would do that.

31:11If we can get them, we should do it with Ian. And then that way we would have two books that sort of looked alike and would have the same feeling to them. And that part was cool to me. My bringing my bringing it up to you is is about the the the the fun. Like look, I only look at that. So this is something that I and you're the same. First of all, I'm not I'm going to you're like, oh, I was a nobody. I'm just with Tim at the time. I want to point out because it dawned on me before I jumped on with you today of all the quote unquote writers, especially of the launch books, because there is not a man alive who has man, woman or child who has told me that they enjoyed the back six of any of the series. It just felt like it lost its inspiration. It felt like they were being patched together. And that's for all manner of different reasons, primarily because the budgets got slashed on all the books. I've covered that here. But the early the initial six launches.

32:14So there's Brandon Choi with with Jim. Scott libdele comes in. Jeff, I don't know if Brandon Choi writes anything anymore. Scott libdele has been largely MIA for the last decade in comics. And all you do is keep power in your locomotive, sir. So over the over the people who jumped on board. It was definitely a precursor of everything that would come from you. And I just I had the best time and we went to mile high comics. So this is where I'll land the plane. And we had about a four hour line out of out of Chakras, Anskies mile high comic super store right down the street from Disneyland. And you looked at me and you said, is this always this big like the signing and I said, this one's a little smaller than than most. But it was still monster. And what I'm getting to is Jeff, you delivered and you've always delivered.

33:16Because sometimes I look at things like, I feel like I'm one of Marvel's best employees of the last 40 years. Like just on that I was hired and I delivered. I what what did you want from me? I think I exceeded Jeff. I think you're one of those guys who exceeds. There are guys and and gals and I've been reading comics for 54 years. I'm sorry. Not everybody connects with an audience. Not everybody goes to that next level. So it's just it's so fun that Heroes Your Born was a beginning of my first interaction. My first relationship with you. I loved it. I was I absolutely loved that collaboration fans loved it. Like I said, our Heroes Your Born episodes are people love that era. They don't quite and the reason I did it is because they didn't quite understand why everything happened. And I look no less than Scott Williams made a comment like as I was doing the six years and he goes, he goes, I sure learned some.

34:18I sure learned new things from this and I'm like, I bet she did. Because I just I just let it all I wrote. I read letters from Cheryl Rhodes that told us are low. Are low. Hey, Cheryl Rhodes, one of those rock stars, a comics, a guy who walked in thought he commanded every room and was gone in six months. Um, he, uh, no, it's fairness. I mean, I'm going to say this because I don't want this not to sound like a mutual admiration society. That book changed my life in a different way. In other words, I'll, I knew that as long as I was with him that I was with what, what I refer to as the more, and I've frozen again Rob, if that matters, the, the more, uh, artistic side, the, the, it was a different kind of, of storytelling that I was doing

35:18with him. Um, by, I grew up and loved, you know, the Avengers with Roy Thomas and John Shema, like that, that's the world that I knew and I loved, which was, and, and really everything that Stan gave to us and would stand, told, supposedly said, which is that a, a, normal comic is a fight where a soap opera breaks out. Oh, I never heard that. And I loved that concept. Um, and what I got to do with you was enter that world. And I got to get to characters that I never would have, I mean, I got to write the Avengers. Yeah. And, but more importantly, and this, I don't know that this still exists largely because

36:22of social media. Um, but in those days, the world of artists and writers were, were very click and, and there were very much, uh, certain groups of people that you, that you got to be with and you didn't get to be with. And I've told the story before it, that, that because the heroes were born, Jim Lee would have at San Diego, he would have these poker game nights. And at those poker game nights were Arthur Adams and Michael Turner and Jay Scott Campbell. And these were guys, I had no connection with those guys whatsoever. And Jim invited me to me. I love it. And that put me in a world where now suddenly editors were looking at me as, oh, you're

37:27not just an eyes and award winning writer. You're also a really commercial guy. And, and we need books that sell big. So will you come into our world and do that for us? And I got lucky. I mean, I, I've said this a thousand times in every convention I go to, which is that the people come up to me and whether it's that they have a copy of, of Spider-Man blue or they have a copy of anything from Superman Batman, or they have us too, whatever it is that I'm currently working on. They come up and they go, I just wanted to say thank you. This was a comic change my life. And this is the comic that got me into the game. I always say that, you know, the important thing for a writer to do is try to create stories that are gateway drugs that are ways for people to go.

38:28You know what? I like Jeff Loba. I'll, I'll try that book. And then if you stay or you then buy another Marvel or DC comic, I've done my job. That's what I'm supposed to do is, is get anybody on that. So hey, everybody, you are the best audience. And those of you who listen to us via audio are not having any issues with this whatsoever. Our, our video component is given us a little bit of a buggy issue today. And we are not technically proficient enough to understand. We, I work off a dedicated platform. So please bear with us as we have this incredible conversation. It's a conversation you've all been crying out. You've all demanded. So we're going to pick up and continue. Heroes you're born, Jeff, I just, it, as you were saying. And I get the same people came back to those characters through, through, through this, relaunch, which I don't mind telling people because the numbers are there. I have the numbers on both ends.

39:29Top was selling 24,000 copies after a solid year of a, a, a, a respectable, celebrated run. And they just could not move the needle. Fantastic four was selling 40,000. Avengers was selling 30,000. They wanted the stand in Jack books to sell better to end to get them back up. And we did it. We, we, you know, I'll tell you something really great. You know, John Levin. He's a former CA agent. I saw our agents in the past. At the end game premiere, he was managing, he was part of the management group now of Chris Hemsworth. And he walked over to me and he talks, Rob, Rob, it's John. It's John. Yeah, you got anything for Chris. And then he says, I just want to tell you something. I, I believe all of this, this came out of nowhere, by the way, just, I don't know. Great profit. He, he, he, he, he, I agree. He said, Rob, none of this happens. Unless you guys do that thing with Marvel where you relaunch the books.

40:30That was the start of this. And I tell people all the time that was the start to get turn the lights back on for all of this stuff because it was just spider-in in the X-Men. And John, John was pretty proficient. And I was like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not telling you the audience because I believe that. But it's, it's a point of view. And the bottom line is here is reborn has lots of points of view. But the data was strong. And the Cheryl Rhodes letter said your low sales of $250,000 have, have forced us to reconsider our commitment to you. And I'm like, are you, like, I just laughed because I knew what was going on. It was all crazy, crazy politics. And, you know, unfortunately, as we all know, there was the bankruptcy during the, during that period, which is why I got the heads up because I was a contracted player. And we got the call. Robert, it's, it's, it's Christmas Eve on, uh, Christmas, December 26th. We'll be filing for bankruptcy. I'm like, what? And I was a good boy and I didn't run to any outlet and tell them I was like, wow, and

41:30you literally do I go, what was that? I go, that's the new president of three presidents I've dealt with since I jumped on this in 18 months of Marvel who told me they're, they're filing for bankruptcy on the day after Christmas. And we just went about our business like, okay. Um, so anyway, that was a fun time. That's where I met you. I don't, I don't know how much we want to get into awesome, uh, beyond the fact that that those, uh, here's what I want to know. Tell me the Jeff Loeb impression of Alan Moore go, not, not do an impression. Just you, you're working with him now every day. Uh, a couple things. First of all, awesome. Awesome. Always be one of my favorite things that I had left for all the time the purposes I felt like I, I've been doing movies for 20 years. I didn't, this is before television. Um, and I really sort of thought I wanted to try something new and, uh, I was looking around

42:31at one point. Um, I think you know this. I tried to put the money together to buy Archie. Um, they, that's a family owned brand. Mm hmm. And selling. Um, and all of a sudden you came to me and said, look, what if we did something with the, the, uh, extreme characters and then also created our own world. Um, and I said, we make me publisher. Just so good. John, that was really, I know whether or not I did it or he didn't, I just wanted to sit at the table. And you're like, yeah, sure, let's go ahead. Uh, as long as Eric Stevenson was the editor in chief and can, you know, talk to creators and do all that stuff. I learned so much from you about how to make comics, like physically make comics. Like, yeah, like color is dozen how, and in those days we have to go here and get the film shot. And, you know, there was a lot of non digital stuff.

43:32Super fun. Um, and we had a great time. And I don't, I think people now know, but certainly at that time, um, people didn't know because you didn't, you didn't have the platforms that you have now. People didn't know your love of comps. Like, they just sort of thought, oh, he's going to do awesome because he's not doing extreme. And that wasn't it at all. It was, no, no, I love doing this. I just want to do it someplace else. I'm going to do my own job. I'm going to tell you exactly what happened. Uh, the excitement. Then we're in, we're now on the other side of the 90s. And I think everything is every three, every three years things seem to change. In, in, in, in my view of matters, especially being in this business for as long as I have for as long as you have. The idea that young artists were going to be something that people took an, an, an interest in breaking new talent as Jim did, as marked it as I did.

44:38Those were done. What was happening over at Top Cow was Mark was now powering, uh, teaming up with Garth, and us who had become a big name, uh, over at DC. And, and it was all, and I think probably heroes were born, help this. What did Marvel do? They went back to their, their golden boys. They went back to me and Jim. I think the retail community. I think everyone was like, we need big established stars now. If we're even going to give you a look in the days of taking a chance on a chap, yeah. On a Jeff Montseuda. They were much the markets changed. It's like the movie business. It's a director driven business. Oops. Now it's a star driven business. And so. Awesome. Needed a complete. Uh, extreme needed a reboot. And you were the guy. I, uh, upon knowing you two con, two conversations I knew. And we're going to get to your movie stuff. You had so much savvy. I learned so much from you. You were a great mentor to me during that time, uh, because the image guys were very mad. They were very mad at me. And, and so you gave me tremendous counsel.

45:39Anyone who's known me knows and can be bedded across 30 plus years. I've always, uh, spoken of this exact. You are tremendous counsel to me during that time. Uh, I think you, you helped me make really strong decisions rather than maybe some emotional decisions that would have been terrible. But with you at the helm. And then you're like, well, I have a role of Dex on my own. And I'm going to get us in church. Well, I'm going to get Ed McGinnis. Guys, Ed McGinnis was ripped off. We took him right off a dead bull. And he came and started doing fighting American. And he did it great. And look, that was all you and your contacts. And you brought them in and you reshaped. We paired down. We put extreme in the rear view. Uh, other than young blood, which again, we were able to now get Alan Moore and Steve Scro's, which would have been great. You and Ian on Coven. I mean, it was, it was exciting. It was very exciting, but it was. I have always had to read the tea leaves of comics. And the studio driven product was no longer being welcomed by retailers.

46:43I publishers. And I won't even get into the pesky aspect of the one media outlet, which was wizard, which was RIP wizard. Please stay, stay down. Don't, don't try and get up. Just, just stay down. Um, they did. I think they were trying to pick the ponies for everybody. Part, they try to be part, polymarket. Um, part, you know, collectors edition. Uh, and try to manipulate. And, and we had to navigate around that as well. But, uh, it was a, it was a great two years. That's how I look at it. I learned a ton. The thing I'm most proud of is that, you know, without really any of the backing and without the marketing that DC Marvel had. Yes, as we went out, you and I had this conversation. The numbers were coming out and we were coming around the clubhouse, turning. And we were passing dark horse. So we would have been the number three.

47:44Uh, publishing entity with four books. Yeah. And, and it, it. I will never say it was about the quality of what we were doing, although what we were doing was high quality. And that a lot of that had to do with. Things you taught me, which is, Jeff, you have to look at paper. Jeff, you have to look at how it prints. And, uh, the paper. We are clueless team needs need to be able to know what they can do on a computer. Yeah. And what it's going to look like. That. Marvel and DC didn't give. They didn't give two birds about it. No. And. Still don't. And still don't exactly. And, and, and are always shocked when. Uh, somebody explodes. And, and they don't immediately then. So, okay, we need to make this change right away. I'll give you a perfect example. This is just my opinion. Um, I just finished doing six issues, was Simone DeMail.

48:44Uh, who was dying at DC, he was on a Batman book that no one was buying. Had no promotion, no one knew who he was. His covers were selling all over the place. He comes with me over to. To do this, that's not a apocalypse. anniversary story, which we had a great time, but what I had I hadn't broken anybody in a long time and I had only worked with my friends and and Simone was somebody that was completely new that I met over at at Lake Como. But I loved this stuff and I loved the way he looked and I said to him, if you could do anything you wanted to, what would you and he said, oh god, I just want to draw a spider-man for the rest of my life. And if you've seen his Spider-Man covers, they are the most exciting things since God. They're great. I don't understand. It is one of the things I do not understand. I'm not trying to take anybody's job away. Build another Spider-Man book. I don't

49:49care. Just put him on Spider-Man. It will improve your sales. So what you're talking about is what you talk you had a long talk with me early on. Two things. And you talked to me about taste. And you said, Rob, a producer is defined by his taste. I am 29 years old and it's all coming to me. When I launched my studio, it was a combination of Keith Giffin and Joel Silver. Keith Giffin was touching a lot of books and having a lot of success at DC. Not just writing them, some layout, some plots. As I can do this, I can extend myself if I get other appendages to help me. And then Joel Silver was the most prolific producer of action movies for about a four-year period from mid-Avies early 90s. And so I understood it, but when you put it so plainly and what you're talking about is somebody at Marvel has to apply the same taste that you're talking about, which in your

50:55case, in my case, is obvious and make that move. And now make that move. A year from now. Make that move. Yeah. Like nobody seems to understand that what I missed under soup when I was 10 years old, when I was 10 years old, my favorite comic was this ridiculous pairing. I think it was called Amazing Adventures. And for some reason, somebody thought it was a good idea to put the in humans for 10 pages and black widow for 10 pages. When I black widow, I think the in humans. I don't know about you. But I read it because anything that Neil Adams put his hand on, it didn't matter. I was buying it. And so I'm reading this story. And in the story, Max and Mrs. Taken over the Savage Land, this is coming from the hidden land. And I'm so

51:56speaking. And so I write a fan letter. And if you go to Amazing Adventures number nine, my fan letter is in there. I got my first fan letter. I love it. But what I didn't understand was the story that I was writing about. They were three, four months ahead. I mean, I think what's going to happen next issue was completely irrelevant. It was done. It was worked. It was in the but we don't live in that world anymore. We have comics that are literally being finished four days before they're going to be in the store. That's right. So if you know that move, what do you do? Get a fill in issue and then go, okay, now I'm going to put Simone to Mayo on this. I'm just counting out to Simone. There are a lot of guys. But then there's then there's and I understand your position completely about how the why should I continue to

53:02build toys that I don't own. Right. And of all the people that are out there working in the business, in my opinion, you have the best deal in the world. They don't make those deals anymore. And they're never going to make those deals. People ask me all the time, why don't you create new characters? You work for Marvel and DC? Why don't you create new characters? Guys, I did that. I gave them literally millions and millions of dollars worth of content that are still being published to this day. At DC, I think I get a fair residual. I really do. And Marvel, I get a piece of paper that says it's all 38. And I'm and I call them up all the time. And I go, guys, what are you doing? Like I've never gotten a check like this from DC in all the time I've done this. And that needs to be fixed. Like tomorrow, all you have to do is just walk down the hall. You don't

54:05have to do better than DC. Just do what DC is doing. When you have a guy like Grant Morrison, who's a tremendous talent and can move the needle. More importantly, not just move the needle, he makes one phone call and Frank Quietley comes back to Marvel. That's right. And now you put them on the X-Men and all of a sudden you have the one book going. We'll solve that problem. Hey Grant. It's not that hard. You take this much less of what you were getting in profit. But if you're only selling 30 plus profits, you're not making any profit anyway. So I don't eat to mistreat me. And I know somewhere someone shaking their heads. You don't understand you understand the business. Sorry, I do understand this. He does. So I know how these things work. And I understand that you work for the Walt Disney Company.

55:13And because you work for the Walt Disney Company, the Walt Disney Company is basically saying to you, we're not interested in spending that much money. And no matter how many, but the Walt Disney Company will spend $40 million on John Carter, Warlord of Mars. And hope that it's going to work with a non-store like what? And so the Walt Disney Company at some point should look over there and go, you guys can have as much money as you want. You want to know why? Because you and I, I'm not even going to get into it. You and I share the same opinion of the current state of the MCU. Yep. And so and I believe that the current state of the MCU is caused by the fact that there are no new stories that are coming out of the comic book division that are lighting fires. They don't have to be the stories that are in the movie to be. I know a

56:19lot of people think, well, the comics should look like the movies. No, the tail doesn't wag the dog. No, the dog wag the tail. And Jeff, I've given up, I've given up on the idea that I would see my favorite Stan and Jack Fantastic Four stories. They're never coming. They're not, they've they've also changed the way that they tell those, you know, that the Fantastic Four movie isn't going to take place in our world. I was like, I'm out. I don't even understand what that means. And, you know, but again, we live in a world where the media tried its dandruff to manifest that and then get my, I tell everybody read deadline.com in December, late December, where they do their autopsy reports. It may be the first week of January, but then that's when they tell you that the chips are in. It's settled and they call hits and misses in an honest way. And they'll be like,

57:222025, all Marvel movies lost money. Boom, that's the truth. Let's move on. Let's hope for a better day. After awesome comics, you go on this incredible, I would say decade-long run of tremendous success. It was so much fun to watch. Now, you know, here's a deal. You are, I believe, and I think it is to your benefit in every way to be one of the premier Batman guys of all time. You deserve it. You've drawn these, you've written these incredible stories. It worked with incredible collaborators to create those stories, but also I've talked to people. You know what artists want to draw. It's the one thing that separates you from almost everyone and believe you me. Can I explain that for a second? Can I finish just let me just let me finish the believe you me because it's interesting. Robert Kirkman and I from about 2000 to 2006 every day would talk about your books. I'll just

58:25see that new love. Holy shit, Red Hulk, holy shit, Superman Batman, holy shit, the Superman that you're doing with Ed McGinnis. I mean, I'm they're all over the timeline. But and Robert, I believe he learned how to play two strengths because he would tell me, man, that low because he hadn't really known you yet. I believe I'm pretty sure I introduced you or at least I know you did. So the thing is what you were doing affected the next generation who were paying attention, who knew, who saw the brilliance and not just your writing, but you're catering to artists and now you're going to weigh in on that. Well, first thing, it just shout out to Robert. I I threw you and certainly through the San Diego's that we've spent time together. Because it's so weird. He lives literally 15 minutes from my house and we never go out.

59:27I can tell you right now currently in the business he's the smartest guy working in the business. Amen. And it is not just because his company publishes really interesting comics. It's because much like you, he has the finger on the pulse of what pop culture is and what pop culture would want. I've said this to you, Robert, many times, which is that you people ask me all the time, like, what is with you in life? And I go, you don't, first of all, you don't know Robert, where I know Robert. Any number one is great dad. And that, if you start with being a great dad, you get a call pass with me. Like, if you're not a great dad, I have no interest in getting to know you. And I watched. It's funny because you talk about

1:00:28my being a mentor to you, but that time in your life is right around the time that Luke Chase is coming into your life. And I'm sorry, I got it. I understood it. But, but your kids made a fundamental change in your life. You recognize the thing that I recognize, which is guys, they're just stories. When that's children, you will understand they are not children. And so it's okay if you make a mistake. It's okay if that story is particularly not as strong as your last story. Because if what you've been doing instead is going to the movies, going to McDonald's, going to the park, doing any of the things that you're doing as a dad, God bless you. Like, you have picked the right lane to be in. So that's the first thing.

1:01:34This second thing is, is I, as I've always said, you are a creature of pop culture. I don't know where it comes from. I don't know what or not. It's because your dad was a pastor, a minister of whatever it is that he was. And that you, you should have looked at that world and went, wow, those are stories. I remember you used to tell me about like, you get all excited about like how the Bible was like the greatest comic book of all time. Yes. And I, and I, and I would sit there, not I mean, it was just talking about, but then I would watch you and you would just like go, that works. And this guy's going to be a star. And this will be just going to be the reason why I go to the movies. And it's just, it's, it's your gift. And I, I don't ever want to understand gifts. I just know that people have what I call a mutant power. And your mutant power is you understand pop culture. Look at what we're doing. We're on Apple doing a podcast.

1:02:40The hell listens to that. Everybody. Everybody. And everybody in the, in the movie and television business are listening to this because they don't want anybody else telling them what's going on in the comic book world. They want Rob Lysel to tell them and the people that Rob has on his show to tell them what's going on in comics so that they can better understand what is going on in comics because what they're not going to do is read the comics. So oh, I heard this is hot. So I'm going to go chase down ice cream man or whatever. And, and find that when Robert Kirkman came out with, with walking dead, I remember thinking to myself because it was in black and white at the beginning was the whole series. And white comics that, that has no superheroes in it. Like what's he doing?

1:03:41And it then goes on and becomes arguably the most successful comic book television show. And then, it follows that up with invincible, which is now arguably the most successful animated superhero television. That's not by accident. I agree. Doesn't happen because Robert Kirkman got lucky. That got happened because Robert Kirkman has passed him and taste and understands what it is that he's doing. The, the choice for me was, was twofold. After I finished Challenger's The Unknown, which is my first book in 1989, it took two years to do eight issues. Not because Tim was slow, was because I had no idea what I was doing. But after that, there was a book that was published,

1:04:41I don't know if that it's still out there, by Titan publishing called Combo Griders on Combo Griding. And the guy that was doing the book in England called me and he said, listen, I've been, I'm interviewing 10 writers for this book. And I've got, are you ready for this list? I have Alan Moore, I have Grant Morrison, I have Neil Gaiman, I have Mark Wade, I have Grant, I'm sorry, blanking fit man, Garth Annis. And, and I'd like you to be part of it. And I went as what? Like the comedy? Like I've done eight issues of Challenger's The Unknown. He goes, I want you to be the new kid. And I said, all right, fine, I mean, I'm happy to do it. We'll see what happens. And his first question was, who do you write for? When you tell a story? And I went, is this a trick question? And he went, no, I just don't know the answer. And I said, I'm ready for the artist.

1:05:45And he said to me, interesting, you're the only person. And this is me telling his story. So you got an issue to take it up with him. Yeah. And he said, you're the only person to answer the question that way. And I said, well, I got to ask you, how did anybody else have, I mean, those guys are my heroes. Like, and like, what are they telling? And they said, well, they give you one of two answers, generally. One is they write for the fans. And I immediately said, that's a bullshit answer. You can't write for the fans because you can't get the fans to agree on whether or not Deadpool is a mercenary or Deadpool is a combo character or a Deadpool is this or what, you can't, yeah, he's just like, you're either like Deadpool, you don't like Deadpool. Yeah. Batman is a detective or is Batman a superhero? Like, get out of the way. You're not writing for that. Then the truth comes out. And it's what I refer to as the Brian Michael Bendis truth.

1:06:49And I love Brian. This is not a knock on Brian. No knocks on Brian. Is I'm writing for myself. I am writing a story that I think enough that this character should be in that story. And what that means is I'm writing that story. And it doesn't really matter who's going to draw. That's right. Because I am the architect and the artist is the builder. Mm hmm. The builder never says to the architect, hey, I'm looking at these blueprints. And it's just me, but maybe the door should be on the front of the house and not on the side of the house. Because the architect is going to say, look, but he you have the blueprints, you're the builder, build the house. Yeah. And there was a time for decades. And when I mean decades, I mean like 50, 50 years, where

1:07:51the writer would write a story and give it to the editor. And the editor would then take that and find an artist. And the artist and the editor and the writer never spoke. It was the editor's job to go, this should be a bigger panel. This should be a smaller panel. This should be quiet. This should forget what's in the script. Do something, do what I'm telling you to do. And I read very distinctly when I was first asked to do and I'm going to leave who it was out. But I was asked to do a story on a character I had never done. And I was super excited to be able to do it. Now this is unsupert. And I was asked, would you like to do an annual? And I said, I'll do anything. I'll do a five page story, whatever you want. And they said, great. I said, you just have to tell me who's going to be the artist. And they said, why is that matter? And I'm doing it for.

1:08:54And they said, you're doing it for this for me, for DC Comics. And I said, you're not going to draw this. And the best way. And maybe the only reason why I do it this way is because I come from movies. I wouldn't write the same movie for Tom Cruise that I would write for Arnold Schwarzenegger. Nope. Yes. Nothing to do with their abilities. And it's nothing to do with whether or not than another actor. They have a school. Yeah. A school kid. What you want to do. If I want Tom Cruise to be in my movie, I need to write a Tom Cruise movie. I need to watch everything he's ever done. I need to get the cadence of his voice. I need to look at the things that he clearly loves doing. And a lot of people go, he loves doing stunts. That's not true. What Tom loves to do is involve the audience by allowing them to come with him on the adventure. That's right.

1:09:58Harrison Ford is very different. Harrison Ford goes on an adventure and you say to after him, whereas Tom Cruise is going, no, come on, you're getting on the plane with me. And it's going to be terrifying. And you're going to love it. And Arnold Schwarzenegger is about two things. He's so smart. He knows his humor. And he knows the level of violence that he can get away with without getting you pushed back. And when you look at Terminator 2, it is as much, I'm not there and I have no no knowledge of this. I can tell you it has as much to do with Arnold as it does with James Cameron. And it is because James Cameron completely understood what Arnold was capable of doing in rotiscript for Arnold. And every shot, every moment, he too is one of my favorite movies.

1:11:03He too. It's just because that marriage works awesome. And the whole of the Godfather, those movies are as brilliant as they are because he wrote those movies because he had already made the movie in his head. He knew exactly what it was going to look like. And he just need to find the right actors. And you've seen like what you're doing was going to be sunny. And the studio was screaming and yelling. They wanted Ryan O'Neill and they wanted to wrap it up. And fortunately, Popula said, no, no, no, no. This is going to be James Kong. I'm going to take a chance on this kid, Al Pacino, in the best loved book of its time. Because that's how I think about comics.

1:12:04Your storyteller and your thinking about how you want your storytelling. Are you a writer? I go, I'm not. I'm a storyteller. It doesn't matter what it's it. Right now, I'm telling a story. But I'm going to I want to go back to what you were trying to about. I completely understand why you wouldn't put more toys in the toy box because you you put so many toys in the toy box and you put with tremendous success. And they were tremendously that they like again, here's your warrant was so smart because it basically said, let's go get those guys and let them come back and do what they did on these other characters. And and I just wish that well, first of all, I think in all fairness, world men, except you rock. No, no, world men. I concur. And I know it's hard. But it's it's like, how do you find those guys who can move the needle? And unfortunately, you either

1:13:15look out and ask who Batman explodes. And and you can't no one knew that's what was going to happen. Certainly not that team didn't say to you, this is going to be the biggest book of the year. It exploded. Those things happen. Sometimes you make a movie and it suddenly becomes a billion dollar movie. Yeah. Well, why would anyone go see any of those Mario movies and make two billion dollars? No idea. Right. Is Mario the most exciting game? And I'm not a gamer. Yes, maybe that's the answer. It's not. It just worked five five minions five minions movies, at least. Yes. Just and and there Chris Melodogri runs that company is like you, Rob. He just has a thought and goes, I think this will work. And and it does. Is it going to forever? No. But I will I will say this. You didn't ask me

1:14:21this question. But if I ran the book, what changed comics for me? Modern day comics was since the yeah. And and and and and I know on some level that that surprises you because you and I have never talked about. Is this the serialization? What is the nature of it? It was it was the Frank looked at the model and said the model is broken. What I'm going to do is I'm going to tell a city story. Then I'm going to tell another city story. That's not year two. In fact, if you loved Marv in the first one, Marv's going to be running around the second one. Yes. And even though he's dead, even though we saw him die because this one takes place earlier than that story. Great. And all I'm telling you is is that if every year the accident, Captain America,

1:15:22Thor, if those books started over as a number one and it was a 12 part story and I had a new team or kept the same team. I don't care. Comics would take off because people would sit there and go, oh, all I have to do is read five, which is 12 issues. And then I can stay on that man or not stay on that man. I'm in. So Jeff, I'd give you money to run a label at Marv right now, but it's not my money to give. Jeff, this is what you did. So I'm going to I'm going to key back to something that Robert and I were talking about as I was chatting and I was excited because I told him you're going to be coming on the show. And he's like, well, definitely point out the strength that he has exhibited with all of his creative teams. And here's the short version. Here's the condescent. The condensed version is Jeff. My favorite Mike Turner work was

1:16:23with you. My favorite Ed McGinnis work is with you. My favorite Tim Sailworth is with you. So on. So forth, Simone Bianchi with you. You bring out the very best in your collaborators. Jim Lee had been dormant for five years. For those of you who don't know once Jim sold wildstorm, there's no opinion in what I'm going to tell you. This is just hard fact. He went into kind of a slumber. And he did not reemerge until he did so with you on Hush. And you reawakened him. And you could see him rounding into form. And by issue six and seven of Hush, it's like, whoa, Jim's been activated with you. Because again, you played at people's strengths. You know what they want. And I'm going to say again, Mike, when Mike Turner was going to go for the very first time in his career and leave the independent space, he did it with you on Superman and Batman. And

1:17:26that work is phenomenal. And I did not know how much I would love Mike's versions of all these things. But utilizing him to bring super girl into this story, perfect marriage of character and artist. You're the conductor. You're conducting the circus. Dark side, the Amazon's. I mean, Jeff, like I said, I talk about this stuff because it's still really embedded in me how much I was having a blast. Like I said, me and my friends, we would talk about all the work you were doing. Oh, I'm going to go. Now I'm going to do Hulk. He's read by the way. And it's Ed McGinnis. And it will be Marvel's stop selling book. And no one saw it coming. But me. I mean, you went on a generational tear. Uh, it is everyone grabbed these books. You know, uh, this is so DC heavy. But, um, and also you're the best Superman writer. I know you're a associate with Batman. I think you've

1:18:26written the best Superman story of the last 40 years. It's right here. It's man for all seasons or or for all seasons. I always put the man, Superman for all seasons. But I am, I loaded up. Hey, look, everybody. I got a Jeff Loeb signed on my, uh, I got a Jeff Loeb signature in a nice and a nice note inside. But all of these, but, but baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby. This is a nuclear bomb right here. I got all these. You go on this generational tear. And I know you felt it because I could see how much fun you were having. Uh, if you'd like to weigh in on that era and how much fun you were having, please enlighten us. First of all, Superman Batman was an exceptionally fun book because, well, at that point, after Hush, everyone left us alone. They just were like, they know what they're doing. Leave them alone. Let them go do what they want to do. And so we got to, and I pissed it right from the

1:19:27beginning. I said, look, I want to do, uh, four six-part stories. Uh, and I want to pick four different artists. Um, and then as it turned out, I was just having so much fun with that. I said, you'll do the last one. Um, so it was just down to two other people and, and the book took off. I was really surprised because I'd been with Ed on Superman for three years. And it didn't really take off. We got a lot of people really liked it. And people's like, I think like it more now than they did then, which I think you find in your work as well. Hmm. Um, that, um, but when Turner came on that book, it was, it was a, it was a nuclear explosion. It was, it was, it was, well, I think a large part, and I remember Mike asking me. I said, Mike, you have to understand the, the combo breeder, particularly then, I'm not so sure

1:20:31now is very segregated. So people who are reading DC don't know who you are. They may have heard of which blade, but they don't, I don't know that they're buying which blade. So they were seeing you for the first time. And I have to give real credit, we're credit to you. They were seeing Peter Stigelwell for the first time. Yes. And they never seen a DC comic that looks like this. Ever. And, and yet we were bringing back Supergirl. And, and then we were, and then, you know, I've, I've talked about Mike so many times. Nobody drew women like Mike. Hmm. And, and whether it was that Supergirl was this wide eyed innocent teenager, it wasn't sexualization in any way, shape or form. No. That's a one. Well, one woman was, ah, one woman is supposed to be on. And so, and strong and capable and all of those other things. It's perfectly okay for Mike to have drawn the way that Mike drew, but then he also drew a

1:21:35Superman and a Batman. Oh, you're not going to mess with this guy. He's just not going to. And nobody said anything about what costume he was going to wear, whether it needed to be the black costume of a blue guy. Like, nobody cared. They just let us do the story. And, and I'm, it was amazing. And then right after that, he never gets the credit that he should deserve. But, Carlos Pateco said to me, oh, yeah, I want to draw every character in the DC universe. And I went, what do you would sing? What are you talking about? He goes, I want to draw everyone. And I'm, my favorite. I want to draw cinnamon. He's kind of, I said, and I said, you want to do what? He said, I want to draw cinnamon. I said, well, what what's cinnamon? He was, how could you not know who cinnamon is? Cowboy. He said, what's in character? Along with that guy. Along with an

1:22:36district listing off all these Westby characters. And I go, so you want Superman and Batman to go to the old West. Yes. And to go to the Superheroes in the future. And yes, I want to draw a commandee. And I'm like, okay, let's go do that. Let's have some time travel. Let's do the thing that brilliant. What have been an imaginary story? But I thought, what if we actually did it? What if we killed Monpacant? What if we killed Joe Chil and and took the kids and raised the kids and made them the tyrants of the universe? Like, it's not like it hadn't been done. As a hardcore Legion fan, I love those, those sections of that story as well. Just seeing Carlos draw everybody was just a treat. It was unbelievable. And again, I, you know, and I look back on that book and it just makes me so sad because I might start here. Carlos is here. It's like, like guys that

1:23:41George Perez is in here, like, they're guys that I know feel had it when they left. Oh, yeah. We're going to hear what we're talking about them for a reason. We're going to keep them alive, tell people to get their work. Look, here's, here's the greatest thing. This is going to sound, look, I'm sorry to everyone who thinks this sounds douchey. I'm going to to very tall individuals approached me last night at the Lucas film, at the Lucas, not Lucas film, Lucas Museum of Narrative Arts at the Gala. And they were in their early 20s. And very, very strapping tall blonde young man and his beautiful sister. And he came up to tell me specifically how much he had he had he enjoys the podcast. And I was a little

1:24:45taken back. He was so enthusiastic. And he said, you know, I've only been here in LA for a few days, but I've been driving around. I've been catching up on your episodes. Enjoy those. So then his parents walk over and joy starts flipping out. And I'm not sure what's going on here. What is and his dad is Jeff Coons, who is this incredible artist who has work at the museum and has all these different animals that he's known for. But there it's it's the so my son got a 3D printer four years ago. And the first thing he did he printed out the dog with the balloon. Jeff Coons is this celebrated illustrator installationist. He's always like, I've seen his work in all these museums. And she kept mumbling to me. Jeff Coons son listens to your podcast. Okay. Here's the deal. This is why I'm telling you this. It's that he's 20 years old. A lot of people I do this show

1:25:46out of my own pocket. We don't have advertising because I don't want to have it broken up. I've had offers. We don't we I put it up on my own dime. I want it. I want it presented the way I want it presented. But what I've learned and what kept me going is that people go. So Jeff Jones was on three weeks ago. I've got people on my Facebook group on my ex. I went and bought everything. Jeff Johns. I bought the ghost machine books. I bought the green lantern. Holy crap. You weren't kidding. I had never bought Jason Fae box. So when we talk about artists here and names and you're right. Carlos was still incredibly exciting. His work was exciting. He and there was a 19. I think there's a wondercon. You're not not a wondercon. Early Orlando con that we both went to in 98 right before the awesome implosion. Carlos was there. He came by the table. We had some Avengers pages. We talked to him. Eventually, obviously, you worked with him and did and did these great works. But and Mike was until the illness took him. I mean, I was so excited

1:26:52for the Wolverine stuff you guys were going to do at Marvel. But we talk about him and we celebrate him here because there's a youthful audience and they're hungry for great work. And let me take something. Everything I just flashed in front of this. You go by those Superman Batmins by Ed by Carlos by Mike with Jeff directing it. Jeff no one would have given Mike Turner. Let's tell the little mermaid with super girl and dark side is Ursula. Okay. And you're like, what am I looking? I mean, like you said, what was Mike doing? He was doing girls. He was doing a phantom in which blade and people love that. He was a a beautiful woman. And that's what and you're like, come with me. I'll give you a beautiful woman. The most beautiful super girl. And we'll again, your ability, your taste is impeccable as a writer, as a producer, because you think like a producer. And that's why your stuff stands out. And again, if you're listening to date, listen to Jeff. Artists want to work with

1:27:53more Jeff lobes. They don't want people who just write their story for someone to fill in that you have the success that you have because you are so collaborative. And at some point you leave comics and you decide that you're now going to return to entertainment, media, film, television, and you become the guru of all of the Marvel television stuff. At any point, did you miss comics or are you like, I'm out of here? No, no, no, no, I it came with my contract. I was not allowed to write comics while I was the president of Marvel television. And I and I, Dan Buckley was my boss and Dan Buckley was my mentor and Dan Buckley gave me that chance. It was going to let me run a studio. And I said to him when he asked, and I know the only way he asked me was because I was the only person

1:28:55in television that he knew that he knew period. And I remember saying to him, I've never run a studio. I know how to produce television. He was well then go produce television for us. And I said, and what if we make a mess? He goes, then I'll fire you. I have to tell you Rob, and I'm not saying this out of ego or anything else. I've had three job I've ever taken. I've taken with that attitude, which is, I'm going to do the best job I can. And if it doesn't work, it's okay. It's fine. I'll find another job that would be okay. And I remember so distinctly when I got asked to join, I was working on Buffy, but it was in kind of a side pocket situation. And Josh was looking after me and one of her brothers was looking the other way and a bunch of other things. But now Algaugh and Miles Miller had called and said, look, and you have to know their sense of humor to understand that it was not a dig. It really wasn't a joke. They said, hey,

1:29:57we basically ripped you off to make smallville. So why don't you join the show? And I was like, well, I don't know what you're, I don't know, I've never done television. And they said, this is a good place to learn as any. And we have a young staff and we're here. So don't worry about it. And this show works. It's a hit. So you don't have to worry about it. And it's not like you're going to come in here and blow things up. And so I remember talking to my agent who's a big television agent and he said, what are you doing? You've never done TV in your life. And I said, so, and this was what he pointed out to me. He goes, as the movie writer, you're the genuiner. If you're a television writer, you're in the squad. And you have to listen to the

1:30:59genuiner. And you also have to get along with everybody else in the writers room. Like they have their opinion has to be as valid as yours. You're used to being the only voice in the room. And I said, what I said to, I said, then, you know what? I'll do it for a few months and it doesn't work. I'll quit. Like, or they'll fire me like, what's going to happen? So I come over and I get there. Got asked, was do you want to run more of the television? And I said, sure, I'll give it a try. The story that I love to tell is I'm at the dinner with Dan Buckley and my phone rings. And at the time, Jeff Johns and I were sharing, you know, you've been there. The bungalow. Yes, the bungalow. And it's Jeff. And I just think he's just calling a B.S. So I just hit no, and I'm because Dan is talking to me about this job. And we're at a restaurant into New York City.

1:32:02And I looked down the phone, and it's Jeff, and I'm like, I'm sure it's just a butt dial. It's not a big deal. Dan's getting a little annoyed. It has been interrupted. And we, he starts up again, and the phone rings again. Now I think that the place is on fire. So I pick up the phone and he goes, and the first thing I said was I suggest now is not a good time. He goes, I have to talk to you right now. I said, the place burning down. He goes, no, I said, well, I'll talk to you later. He goes, no, I have to touch you right now. Okay. And I said, okay, I can give you three minutes. I said, Dan, I'm really sorry. And I go outside. And I was so sure it was going to be like a three minute call. I didn't take a coat. And I remembered it's like it happened. Yeah. Danny, the freezing cold in New York on the phone outside the restaurant. And he says, I've just been offered the president of DC's film and television. And I was like, what? And he goes, yeah, I go, is this a joke? And he goes, no,

1:33:10why do you think it's a joke? I said, because I met dinner with Dan and he just offered me the president of television. Like, how can that happen at the same time? I love it. You're like a decision like today. They're telling me today. I said, well, here's the goodness. The only other person they can come to is me. So I already, I'm going to take this job. So that's how that particular magic, Napoleon Dynamite. Yes. So I go inside. Dan explains to me what I want to do. We both understand that that the studio is the big dog. We are the tail on the dog. We are not allowed to do anything that the studio won't let us do. We can't have any characters that the studio won't let us do. And we certainly don't have the budget for the studio, let us do. And for the first two years, it was really hard because everyone was saying to us, why don't you make our man so and get Robert Downey Jr. to do your stuff? I'm like, he's talking about you have any idea?

1:34:15We have, believe it or not, like everyone thinks we made those shows for like 10 and 20 million dollars. The fact that they're doing it now is a different conversation. We had five million dollars. We had three million dollars. Like, that's what we had. And so I remember the so clear, I went to the president of ABC after we had, believe it or not, I have the script. We were going to do Hulk the early years with Caramage O'Cara. Who's a huge Hulk fan? Yes. Like this thing. It's like it's something. Yes, my accent again. And they turned us down because they didn't, they didn't think that Guillermo was a television guy. And so I went to a lunch, the change my life. I went to lunch with this guy who was the president. And I said, what do I have to do? You should have to bring me something that's undeniable.

1:35:18I said, oh, what that is, but say fine. And that undeniable was just we, and I just had finished doing the first Avengers movie. It was the biggest movie ever. It was it made more of all astonishing. We astonishing amounts of money. You and you talk about it all the time. Instead of astonishing movie. Yeah, it just works. It works. And I went to him and I said, I really want to do a television show with you. And that's your blood. I mean, I think it's great that you're a director now, but would you want to do it? And one of us, I can't remember. I'll give it a just came up with a district field and he said, I'll only do it if we can get Clark Gray. I said, Clark said, we fixed that. Don't worry about that. And I said, okay, and we called Clark like on the phone together and said, you want to come back? And he goes, in a second.

1:36:20And next day called the same president who said undeniable. I said, is this undeniable? Just we can Clark Gray, ages of shield. You're on the air in the fall. Like as though I love it. Use of development and talking. And by the way, just like Jones, we had developed there. And they were like, we're never going to make this show. In fact, they said, could you make the character more likeable? Like she's an alcoholic and like, she's really terrible. You know, who's really interesting? Her girlfriend, Terrell Danvers, the blonde. Could you make her the character? And that she has a private detective who kind of comes in her life every now and then. And I was like, no, that's not what Brian created. Network tinkering is the best network tink. These stories are especially as we are in the fall season. And everyone online is posting anniversaries of shows, some that didn't last eight episodes. And you read the behind the scenes of how this show changed to this after the pilot to this to this and eight

1:37:24episodes. And it was gone network tinkering is is is is is is eternal and undefeated. I think what would people didn't understand was I was the first executive that they were dealing with that had written and produced television. Yeah. And and there are a few guys out there who did who are legends, Warren Littlefield. Yeah. Who who not only did but continued to do. John who runs FX. Anything that's on FX is the best television that's there. It's so good. How many total hours at your absolute apex? How many total hours are you producing from Marvel television? We had 14 one hour live action shows and made over 500 hours of TV and we made 300 half hours of animation. So what people forget that this includes like Cloak and Dagger, which had a life

1:38:28on another. I mean, you're doing clooking to argue you're doing Daredevil Jessica Jones, the defenders cage. Yeah, the only show that didn't have a second season was in humans. And I'm sorry, I'm going to point the finger at somebody else in humans. Yeah. Then this is not a show that we're going to be able to make for this budget. Yeah. The purpose of doing it was to make cast great cast in great cast. Phyllis Flott on the iMac theaters. It was made specifically for iMacs and it was going to air on ABC. Yeah. And iMacs has something I learned they have weekends four times a year where they don't have an iMacs movie to go into that slot. Yeah. Yeah. The guy that ran iMacs had this great idea. Why don't I make a original programming and put it there and see what happens. Yeah. And why don't I get a Marvel show since my best friend is like come up. Yeah. And so they called and they said we need to do it. And the slot is going to be

1:39:30Labor Day weekend. And I went I can't make Labor Day with this because this is a show that needs we're going to be compared to the movies. Yeah. And we only have eight million dollars. Your hands were tied. Your hands were tied. So just the next one is Superdoll weekend, which is the end of January. Give us that weekend. I'll give you a show that looks, I mean, we just got killed. Like, energy. We could picture of Medusa's hair and that was the end of the show. Hey Jeff, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, it dawned on me listening to you as you've been talking. You were subjugated to the same political traps for a back lack of a better word from within Marvel that we were and I by we, I mean, Jim and I out the door. We went to Marvel to do the announcement for Heroes

1:40:33Reborn and people came out of their offices to tell us we hope you fit. This is what you're doing is terribly threatening to us and we don't want more of this. We want less of this. And God bless him. Jim Krueger was a staff guy. He had foot soldiers and the earth tech stuff with Alex just telling the audience. He was a staff writer for their wizard magazine, whatever it was called Marvel something Marvel vision. And he said, oh yeah, no, there's a lot of hostility towards you guys. The television side and the film side were pitted against each other. I really admire how you navigated it and you mentioned this about 30 minutes ago. You said, you know, Rob, some stuff gains appreciation over time. I believe all of the Netflix, Flick shows and I was very vocal in my love for all of them. I got a big kick and so much enjoyment. Do I believe that Daredevil 1, 2, and 3 are the the the the proudest of the bunch because the again, the source material was there and you

1:41:36honored it. But that stuff is now like worship like like a decade later, it is seen that those shows are even more appreciated now and look what happened. They had to go all the way back to the model that you established on Netflix. That's again, not an opinion of fact. They they trashed months of shooting to return to a model that you had established, which is, but I'm seeing it now. You were kind of, uh, you were, uh, man, I can't think of the word, but you you were in a bit of a trap. You were sabotaged. There was sabotage that the caller is in the building. The caller is in the hand. You have to clarify something. I only had that experience, only had that experience on the enhumans. We talk every other show. And I'm you can ask any of the show runners that I worked with, Cloak and Dagger, uh, um, any of the shows that work, I want to be clear about

1:42:40what I just stated is my opinion. It's my opinion people. I understand people calling them the Netflix shows. Please stop calling them. The Netflix shows. They were the Marvel television shows. They were aired on Netflix. When you go see the Odyssey, and you call it I max on the Odyssey, you don't. If anything, you call it that is Christopher Nolan's the the Odyssey. I'm not asking you to call it. I got it. But I really wish you would call it. I'm so sorry. It's just a it immediately identifies a certain time and a family of shows that were very popular. They were very popular. Eared on Netflix. That's accurate. They were Netflix was fantastic. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Tetsurandos was our executive. There were like three people there. Yeah. Uh, they only had three television shows. They had Orges the New Black. They had House of Cards and they had, um, um, uh, leader house and what was that so called? Yeah. That was the,

1:43:49it was about the mom and Amsterdam or whatever it was. Right. And remember saying to them, um, look, I can't promise you that I'm going to be able to deliver a hit show, but I will do my best to do better than. So what I'm speaking of is the limitations you add on budgets. Uh, what, what, what, that's what I'm speaking of. I believe you made those under very difficult restrictions that the movie, that the movies weren't necessarily, uh, that they were, they were given a little more, uh, latitude. And I think what you did was great. The charitable, charitable season two is my favorite. It blew me away. All is for the company. The studio would make one movie and make a billion dollars for the company. I am seeing. It's not a complaint. But for a television division to make a billion dollars and also to make it on if you add up all of the money that we spent on those television shows,

1:44:52it would be hard to come to what the movie division spent in a year. Uh, because people ask me all the time, what were you making beard over for? And if you had to guess around how much money do you think we were spending on an episode? I, I, based on, I'd say eight million. That's most people say eight to ten million. Okay. We, we had a cap at five million. And here's even better. We got a deal with the state of New York, a tax incentive. So for anybody out there who wants to know why a tax incentive works, tax incentive paid us for every episode, $1.4 million. So we were making debt over for $3.6 million. And that meant that when those shows were renewed, when those shows went to DVD, when those shows went anywhere else they wanted to, they out of pocket was $3.6 million.

1:45:58So profit was coming in all over the place. The more you make profit, the more corporate leaves you along. The moment you trip your other door. Good bye. Nice to see you. Well, the amount of, so one thing that you, I had never met anyone like you. No one brought the savvy from the entertainment business. Prior to us going live with this interview, I, I give you the, what I call the glaze that I give every guest. And I mentioned your 10 years on. Commando, how I, Commando Teen Wolf, Smallville, Lost Heroes, I give all the bonafides. And you just had, you have a savvy about you, Jeff. That's why everyone loves you. You deliver on the writing end, but you have a savvy or a great mentor. Most advice you've ever given should be listened to. Because again, you've come from that business. And it's just the,

1:47:02I only you could have done what you did. You, you had to be a political animal at the same time being discerning with your taste as a producer and, and fitting all the widgets together that come with budgets and directors and productions and tax incentives. So, buddy, I can't imagine. Again, in fairness, Rob, I have to say, I had 120 people who worked for me. I had people like Jim Corey, who was my head of production, and Kareem Zareg, who was in charge of development. Like these guys were in their field. Like I could go to them and go, I have this crazy idea. Like I want to land a 747 on Fifth Avenue. Is that possible? And, and these guys would come back to me and we can go, well, first of all, it has to be a 707. It has to be on a Sunday. We have to get a clearance out of the mayor's office. And, and yes, then we can do that. And, and I'm just giving you your flowers, man.

1:48:03I think what you did was really impressive. One of the things that, I mean, Rob, you've known me a long time and, and you know that one of the things that I'm trying very hard to do is enjoy being at the end of the rainbow. You know, because when I got in this business, I was 23 years old. I was 20 years old when Teen Wolf came out. I, when 1985 came around and it was back to the future Teen Wolf Command, back to the future Teen Wolf Command. I'm a God to those people who were 15 or maybe like they were 15 that summer. Yep. And, and just the reason why I include back to the future. I only had something with it in that. Steven Spielberg looked at the footage that we had on Teen Wolf to decide to put Michael in a replaced Eric Stolz. Right. It's a whole story. But it's a great story. Yeah. And I'm so happy for Michael. He was, you know,

1:49:05but he made my career like Teen Wolf took off. Like who knew this little back? It's a classic. It's a classic to this day. And you have a watch to go watch this movie. It's 90 minutes. It's so fun. It's so fun. I watched it last year. I watched it again last year and we swept up in it. laughed. Love it. And so, but for years and years, I have done my best at being very grateful. And always saying the same thing to all my fans, which is I'm so grateful to you because if you don't do, if you don't buy my book. Yes. If you don't go to my movies, if you don't watch my television shows, I'm out of job. That's right. I'm not going to get to do what I do. So it's a partnership. Yeah. And I, you know, just to gear off for a second, I watch what you do and I watch how how

1:50:05this is going to sound weird, but how good you are to your fans in the same way that your fans are good to you. And you and I laughed. And San Diego, because I really don't understand what you do anymore. I don't understand what I'm doing. I know that young blood is out there. I know bad rocks out there. And I have no idea where to find them. I don't know if they're in stores or they're in stores and they're online. Yep. Yep. I don't like it. I'm so fun like you, buddy. And you can sign faster than anybody else in the world, including Jim Lee. And I love watching your chisel and do all that stuff. But the one thing that I have always admired is their, like, their, I'm surprised they're not fist fights. I mean, there are people who they're far less than they were. But I was with you in the days where let's just call it the Rob Lightfeld Cantrowff feed. Right, right. And you weathered that storm

1:51:08and I looked at you all the time. I've talked to you about this all the time. Like how do you, I mean, do you just go home and cry? Do you like, I mean, you're not asking, you're not asking me that right now. Are you asking me that? What? Are you asking me that right now or you're not? Well, no, I asked you that then and I and I know feel the same way now, which is I'm, I'm just doing the best I can. And you know what? If you don't like the book, don't ride. I'm going to come up and tell me that I saw. So I don't need that to have people don't, people, I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant because it's an understanding and it's how I view things and comics and sports are more like than anyone will ever truly embrace. So, so let's go, so, so I already put, I was so excited. I'm not, I'm not, this is just something that happened to me in the last 15 hours. So I'm going up to the bar at the restaurant at the Lucas

1:52:15museum and they're spiky. And I just go, I spent two days with this guy 30 years ago. I'm going to and he literally said, I said, Hey, he's ordering drinks. I'm ordering drinks. On the other side of him is ala rooker. So pretty funny picture. And I said, Hey, Spike, congratulations on your next win and it all. That was fun. How they became America's team. I said, I don't know if you remember me, but you directed me in a commercial. Uh, 30, 30 years ago, we shot it at your studio. He goes, Oh, yeah, yeah. He goes, you fly button. That's right. Is that? And so we got into that. And we had a nice, and I asked him, could I, could I take a photo? And he's like, sure, turns around, joy takes his photo. And while we're doing it, he says, you're fly button again. Why I'm telling you this is, he said, who's your team? I said, I'm raised in Southern California. I'm a Laker guy. Ah, Lakers hate them. Hate it. And he turned it. I said, have a good night. So in comic books,

1:53:18just like with Spike, what did I lead with the next? What did he end with? I hate the Lakers. So when we get into our tribes and our clubhouses, everybody's got a favorite and they will throw elbows and knees. And you mentioned like the different tribes. And I've, I've always mentioned, I've had, uh, I had a tribe and my tribe expanded when I met you to include people like Tim Sale. And I never really knew somebody like a Richard Star Kings, but you know, I'm really delighted that I was able to get Tim. I got to know Tim because of you with you. Um, and then, you know, I met Robert and that's expanded my tribe a little, but I don't have a big tribe I never had. But comic books is tribal also on the fan end as you are aware. And they will pick favorites. They will turn on you on a dime if, if, if certain criteria aren't met. I listened to other podcasts. And some of these movie guys are now finding that they movie podcast guys are like one guy who's going off the other day about he'll, he said, well, maybe I'll go try this video game and he goes,

1:54:22you wouldn't believe them all the messages I got saying, yeah, you think you can play this video. Don't try it, buddy. Who do you think you are? Are they going to like welcome to the internet? That's, that's all those voices. Um, I just believe that I'll give you, I'll give you a non-Marab life felt. My favorite work coming out of Marvel in the uh, early 2000s is from Mark Miller. And it's a Miller and Bendis world over there. But within Marvel, there were Bendis tribal people and Miller tribal people. And if, and if you ask me, there were more Bendis than there were Mark and, and, and I get the Civil War trade paperback. And I even emailed Mark, this is 20 years ago. Why is Brian Michael Bendis bio in this? He didn't write this, but Marvel wanted to give Brian Michael Bendis some sort of credit for coming up with this concept with, I'm like, wow, this is a

1:55:23deep tribal fissure. And sometimes it's very obvious, but they're tight. It's very settled. I was there when Civil War happened. Okay. Uh, and Mark wrote all six issues. You want me to tell the story? But Mark wrote all six issues. Let's establish that. Brian, you can touch it. Yeah. Um, we're in a summit. And uh, everyone goes around the room and talks about what they want to do for their big thing. I never had any interest in doing it. Cross company, anything. I always was like, well, I think the Hulk should be Rick. And that's what I'm going to be doing. Thank you very much. I'm done. And uh, Brian at the time was absolutely the kingpin. Yeah. And, and Mark was kind of, he was the rebel. He was the guy that was like, he didn't want the seat. He just liked kicking up the dirt. Yeah. Um, and Mark said, I think Mark

1:56:25still does. I think that's what makes him happy. Yes. Uh, Kindred spirit in Mark Moller, I find. Yes. And so Brian tells what he thinks his next cross company story should be, which is that the Avengers are, we're going to use the, the act that they have to give up their secret identities. And the Avengers refused to and the ages of shield hunt them down. This is a point where Brian was so in love with everything he was doing at age of shield company. Well, Sam Jackson, all that stuff. Like, I think, I don't know the same was at that point, but what? And, but he was in love with shield. And I'm sitting there going, what's like who cares about shield. But I don't think Mark then goes. It's really interesting. I like completely like an hour later,

1:57:29the next day, whatever it was, he goes, he goes, I don't have a story, but I was watching 10 burns documentary on the Civil War. And what I thought was so interesting, he goes, I'm Scottish. I don't know this was that it was brother against brother. Like, there were guys on the battlefield that were shooting at their brothers because the north and the south were in some places like in Virginia. He goes, this ridiculous. Like what should we fighting against each other? And he goes, but I don't have a story. I don't know what it is. And that's when I spoke up. And I think what we do is we mix those two great ideas. It's Avengers versus Avengers. That's a book I'm interested in reading. And Mark writes it. And in the room, Buckley goes, that's what we're

1:58:33doing. And he was, we just did a title. And I said, I think Mark already has the title. It's called Civil War. Okay. Now, other people tell that story. And I'm not in the story. Okay. And that's fine. I was there. I know what I love it. This is the juice with the show thrives on the juice. And you just, that you just squeezed it. I love it. Okay. So I have now cut to my version of whether or not Brian feels like he came up with Civil War. He doesn't feel like the same with Civil War or whatever version of the story you come up with. I will tell you my version. Yeah. I actually take the light in telling this story. Okay. Different year. We're there. We're coming to the end of Civil War. We have to come up with something. There is no ending. And we're going around the room. We're going around the room. We're going around the room. And Ed Breu Baker says, I think we should tell Captain America at the end. Because it sort of says, that's the cost of war. And I'm in love with

1:59:40this idea. And I'm like, oh my god, that's what we have to do. We have to do the death of Captain America. We have to. This is there's no other ending to the story. Just we didn't walk into the room. He has not been there for the first two days. He shows up at lunch. We sit down. Dan Buckley says to him, just we're just having a little go around whether or not. What do you think about the idea that Captain America should die at the end of Civil War? And Josh goes, right? It's cool. I'm left out of that story. Okay. I'm never putt. It was actually people say it was just this idea that Captain America got cool. Okay. Bye. Great. You know what? Ed Breu Baker wrote the story. Ed Breu Baker got the royalties. Good for Ed Breu Baker. That's not the story. I told you that story. I'm ready. Let's go. Squeeze it.

2:00:44Dan says, we're going to kill Captain America. We should. It should be something. I said, please, please, after death of Superman, I can't think of anything I hated more than. Here's four new Superman's for another year. And I have to guess which one and all those characters stop. I said, can we just do a mini series that celebrates his life? And Dan goes, okay, that's sort of an interesting idea. And I said, you know, just different characters contemplating on that. And Jay Michael Strzinski says, we could do like the Kubla Roth. And we could do the five stages of grief. And I go, that works. That's a great idea. And I would really like to write this book. And I can see on Strzinski's face, fear, because in his mind,

2:01:47he has come up with the story. In my mind, I just needed framework for what was going to be this day. We go to lunch. At lunch, I am across the room and I can see, Shazuki is in Buckley's face on fire. Strzinski is also seven feet tall. Go ahead. And I'm quitting and go fuck yourself. I've never intrigued like this in my whole life. This is awesome. The thing that this is about me and he says, look, I'm going to fix it. You're writing this book. Just know you're writing the book. I said, okay, sounds fine to me. First issue comes out. And in the credits, not done by Richard Sharkins, it says, from an idea by Jay Michael Strzinski. I didn't see this. And then I go, in all the years, I have read and looked at comics. I have never seen anyone get from an idea. This is Marvel Comics people just adding that.

2:02:56What did you say? I said, this is Marvel Comics people. And he said, this day, they, the death of Captain America book that I wrote is still being published 25 years later. And to this day, it still says, it's a credit. Okay. And then he else like that, it says from an idea by Jay Michael Strzinski. Tell me your artist on that again. It was JR Junior. It was Linneal U. It was you. It was Ed McGinnis. Michael Turner did all the covers. It was John Remededed Jr. It was the great day, Finch, who you and I have not talked about enough. And then the late great John Castigay did the good. Jeff, those six six six issues, right? Five, six? Just fantastic. What the I those were books again, this is in your generational run.

2:04:00You're you're and look, you know what I mean? Audience, if you don't know what I mean, it's Tom Cruise doing Mission Impossible and Jerry McGuire in the same year. It's Steven Spielberg doing Jurassic Park and Schindler's List. It's it's still loan from 82 to 85 Rocky, Rambo, Rambo, Rocky. Generational runs happen and they elevate and they put you in a different place. And this is in that window for you that is just phenomenal. Right before you go off and we don't see you again in TV. Jeff, these stories are fantastic. I wish I should start a new podcast. The juice. You know, you can't come on unless you have the holy crap. I'm launching that this week. That's all I used to say to you was I would just say, drop. Tell me the juice. What's the juice? Give me the juice. All right, I have a favor. Yeah, I know you will do it, but I have a favor. Yeah, because you've kept it a secret for decades.

2:05:04I have had so many people say to me, you have to hear Rob, I felt do his impersonation of you. And I have asked you on numerous occasions, do you do it for me? I don't have it in me, Jeff, that is I think passed. I wish I could. It's just a, when I do it, it's just a boldness. I can't summon it right now. If I can find it in the next few minutes, I'll let it out. But it's weird. Do you want to do it? Another one, which is my favorite? What's that? No one will get anything you would need. Will you do Fernando? His name is Ferdinand. No, okay. Okay, Jeff, you're killing me here. But the thing I love that you said about somebody on, you know, I get the stuff and people are like, I'm going to tell you the truth about Rob Lifel, and it's some intern in extreme. And he's like, he used to take me. I'm going to tell you a secret. And every day, he'd be like, hey, what's the juice?

2:06:06And he tells the story and he goes, it's all I ever asked me. What's the juice? And it's it's said in like a judgment. And I don't respond to this person. I'm doing it now without naming them. But I'm like, you don't know who I am. I say, what's the juice to everyone in my family, in my friendships. They're called this wasn't a secret code word or or responsibility. It's it's, hey, so hit me. What's the juice? It's the easiest. So yeah, I'm telling you, that's my new show. So Jeff, um, a couple of things I have to ask. Okay. Okay. You are a premier Batman, pantheon level writer. What what? What is it with Batman? What what has changed in Batman? Over the 35 years you've been interacting with him or longer. What how do you how do you see the character? Um, I go. It's um, I'm not speaking about anybody's work.

2:07:08I just know about how I see the character. I had the most amazing thing happen to me. If you believe it, given how many times I have borrowed from his genius, I up until a few years ago, I had never met Frank Miller. And in fact, at one point, one of the reasons was because, I think you remember the story. Hmm. And in since city, was very upset that, uh, death flow had borrowed his style. And he called out, and he called out Tim sale. And I just knew that, that you can't call Tim sale out because he was told to draw like that. Right. And Jim established it. And so I, you know me, you and I have a very special person between both of us.

2:08:09Actually, he's gotten better for me, of late, but there's someone that, you that said some things to you many years ago, and I stopped speaking to that person. And you would say to me, don't worry about it. I'm going to fix it. It's going to be fine. Everything's going to be great. And I would go, nope, out of my life, never goodbye. What he said is unforgivable. Okay. It's understood. Not going to happen. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Understood. And it's much better. Now, I don't know why, but it is. But in this particular case, wait, what was he talking about? This is what's time to say Tim sales, uh, death flow. Right. So, uh, Frank, Bill, so we're backstage at some show. This is recently because I'm with Simone, uh, Bianca, and he had done a cover for the 300 hard cover or whatever. Yeah. He's done a cover for sure. And he'd become very close to Frank. I had no relationship with Frank. This is before dinner was in all that other stuff.

2:09:12And he says, do you want to be Frank? And I go, I don't know if that's a great idea. I know. Thanks, a big thing. I think Frank thinks that I've been by him for all these years. Yeah. And here it is. I have been. So he's completely justified. So say we all, so say we all go ahead. So we go over, you know, Simone is Italian. He's completely fearless because over and he goes, I want you to meet my friend, Jeff, oh, and Frank lights up and goes, I cannot believe that we've never met. And I'm reloaded on. And I go, I go, no, Frank, it's just such an honor. Like I can't even tell you what he's talking about. And I go, it's not because Simon honor because you're the only other guy that understands. And I go, I'm sorry. I love it. And he goes, Batman. And I go, and by the way, if you asked Frank, he might say that never happened.

2:10:12That's fine. No, I'm sure he knows. And I, he looks at me and he kind of leans in the way Frank does. And he goes, he's insane. And you understand. And I was so taken aback like my mentor is leaning in to tell me the secret. I never thought about it in that simply terms, but I have made it part of my work from the very beginning, which is this is about a 10 year old boy who saw his parents get murdered in front of them. And he then decides to make a promise to rid the evil of the city of the evil that took his parents life.

2:11:13That's the promise he makes. He keeps that promise. But he must know on some level, it is the very definition of insanity, which is you, you can't rid evil. It can't happen. So no matter how many times he wins, he loses because he can't bring his parents back from the death. And at what cost exactly? B is what every single story I tell is about. Yeah. And it may not be there in the front. It's in the back for it's in what he says. Or there's something there. And if you don't understand that about Batman, I'm sorry, you don't understand Batman. And, and but in fairness, you're a lot to have your opinion. You can do whatever you want. You want to do Adam West. That's your Batman. And you're thinking the world. But I will tell you. And I know you and I have this every now and then.

2:12:14Cristian on understood that. And he did. He stood that on a level. It's disturbing. Christian Bale's performance is 100% unhinged. It is. Which I will watch when it comes up on on Instagram. I will watch it 50 times when Michael came and they give the speech to Michael came. Mm hmm. About the Burma jewels. Some men don't want to make the world a better place. Some men just want to see it burn. I look at that and I just like I don't know whether or not it was Jonathan Dolen. I don't know whether or not it was Chris Dolen. I don't know whether or not it was Michael came. I can just tell you. That is Batman. Yes. And I agree. And that's what I've tried to do. And I know that there are a lot of people out there who don't feel like.

2:13:18Hush to compare to hush one. But I also asking you to remember that and you said it Rob, which was. When Jim got to six or seven. It sort of exploded. The story was designed that way. The story was designed the first five or six issues with all set up and then boom. And all I'm asking is is that if you're reading hush two and you're going, well, it's not really as good and Jim's not as good and and I appreciate it. You can have your opinion. It's fine. I know the sales. That's why that's all that matters. It's just it's all the matters. What I will tell you is this back six. Get ready kids. Oh, Jeff, are we making news? What what is this? Well, no, there's another six issues. I know. I just didn't know if that was okay. So they're happening. I think there's a lot of confusion.

2:14:18So I'm glad the author of this work is confirming it right now. Not only confirming it, there is a fun. I did. There is a letter at the beginning of the script for issue. It says Jim. This is what we did for the first six issues. This is what we're going to do for the next six issues. Just like the first time, I should have told you. But now it's here. So can he accept any call me up and he goes, I get it complete. I want to I want to I want to address this real quick. I had I was doing retail right before I broke into comics and it was that summer of 86 Watchman Dark Knight. And I was the clerk that had to answer the calls is Watchman and no. Is Dark Knight and no. Because as they're longer, they got the longer the delays happen. And and dark night was an enormous weight between three and four. And and and Frank did it again on dark night after 9-11, which deeply as he's been very honest

2:15:19in every interview 9-11 happened between issues two and three. And he it affected him. And so he changed. And again, we had a little bit more of a wait. But what we all learned is that was for a brief period at time and then it's been collected up on my shelf for 30 years. I'm looking I have absolute long Halloween. I have I have absolute hush. I have Watchman. I have dark night and first year image comics. Young buds late Wildcats is late cyber forces late. Last year for Christmas, they gave me the Wildcats omnibus. I was so excited. I had identified you know some stuff. They always want to know what I want. And I was taken back. Had forgotten that young blood was in Wildcats issue three. And was like, it doesn't matter when the delays happen. All that matters is that it will be collected for the rest of our lives.

2:16:21And put on shelves. And as and excuse me. Some will. Well, everything is correct. That's okay. Great great point. But you know what? It took me years and within the agreement two years. Because and I'm so thankful we announced a young blood artist edition. And it was sourced between two people who have all the pages. And yet the better scans were from someone else. And I even I bought a new scanner. It wasn't catching no matter what the settings we went through deliberate all of these different technicalities. And then I asked my art rep at the time Glenn Brunswick of Panel Page Art. I said, would you scan the pages that I that I need scanned for this? And he said, sure thing Rob. He sent him to image and Eric Stevenson. God bless him said Rob, they're still not of the same quality. I got a link to buy the same printer that was used. I went and I hit the link and I ordered it.

2:17:21And within 24 hours they said, this is no longer available. These are out. These are discontinued. I was like, oh shit. So I did what I didn't want to do. And I I delivered the pages to another source in in Washington to to to to scan them. And got the young blood collected edition the hardcover. $150 book couldn't be prouder 35 years old. And it's incredible. And again, it's a 35 year old book. And at the time it was late, late, but certain collections, bodies of work, significant works will will be collected. Like you said, not all definitely not all. But the stuff that was worth waiting for. Once it's collected, no one remembers. They don't know no one. When kids come up right now and go, hey man, I need to read Watchman. They don't know they don't care that it was late dark night. They don't know they don't care. I'm excited to get all of hush to is what I'm trying to say.

2:18:22I'm excited. We'll wait. We'll get it. It honestly like somebody told me somebody at DC and I vehemently disagreed with them. They said Jim won't be remembered as an X-Men guy. I hope he remembers the Batman guy. And I laughed them out of house and home. And then 20 years later, I'm like, it's a dead even draw, which for the guy that electrified people on X-Men, that's saying something. And really, it's because of the hush bodies of work. The only significant bodies of work that Jim has done are the hush stuff. I know the stuff with Frank was out there. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I lost track of that stuff. So I'm not sure what happened there. I bought every issue. I was very all-star. It's called all-star Batman. That's right. All-star. But anyway, even with that, I do believe it was a tall order to me to think that Jim could be

2:19:26considered in the same league of his X-Men stuff with his Batman stuff. What I'm trying to say is I believe that's because of the stuff that you guys have done together. And I think it'll continue. So I'm excited. Jeff, I'm excited. So can't wait to see it. Something that that as a publisher, the reader doesn't know. Maybe it doesn't care. But I just want to sort of make it clear why certain things happen a certain way, which is there are four, I learned this when I was at Marvel. There are four tiers. And the first tier is when you have a book, you put it out as a collection because there's a way to make more money. It doesn't matter how well it's sold or it didn't sell or whatever else. You'll get a paper rack edition of this. You can have it. It's there. And then once it's sold out, that's the end of the whole thing. Then there's the next tier, which is, depending upon how the first tier sold,

2:20:27we've decided we're going to do another edition of this and see what happens. Then there's the third tier, which is what most editions are, which is depending upon sales. In the previous year, we will decide whether or not we're going to continue to do this. And if it's, if we know that there's going to be a death of the Captain America movie, then we probably want to bring out all that death of the Captain America stuff that we have seen in the warehouse. Thank you. We had evolved that stuff. Then there's the top. And the top is called Evergreen. And this is a Disney concept, which is Hoistor, Cinderella. They are stories that were told that will always be out, always. Because they do not require any

2:21:30marketing or any announcement or anything. It's just, it's like pants. Everyone needs a pants. We're going to give you pants. Got it. So that's why certain Disney movies are always available to you no matter what. They're called Evergreen. Yes. In the publishing world, there are comics that are that way. They are, for example, watchman. They are, for example, dark night. I have been extraordinarily lucky that Long Haul Ween, dark victory, hush, superimpat, man. Are in that world. Evergreen. Always be a copy of one of those. Yes. Always. You go to a store. There's a copy of it there. And it's

2:22:30that I think alone is. Look, the reason why we did the last Halloween was not just as a tribute to Timmy and my chance to work with 10 artists that I never knew in my life. But I said to DC, do you want another book? That's it, Evergreen? Yep. Because this is a, this is it. For sure. For some publishing till we go on for it. And it wasn't like between do you and this is what it is was a yes. And I think part of the reason why Jim's legacy as an ex-man artist and it was certainly extreme. No pun intended. Your legacy as the Deadpool artist. And a ex-force is that they don't do.

2:23:30Evergreen. That's correct. They are like. Ex-force the origin of Deadpool. X-Men. Cubally joins the team. Whatever the hell is right. I will tell you that when I go to a show, the person who has the longest line I've ever seen in my entire life is Chris Claremont. Yes, now. And he's you know what he's signing? He's signing the X-Men. Yes he is. And he's signing X-Men 275 and X-Men 30 and X-Men like no one's bringing. Here's the first 10 issues of the X-Men. Right. You're just seeing their favorite X-Men. That's right. And again, I go back to what you and I were talking about at the beginning. I think part of the problem is that what made the X-Men great in those days and the reason why I bought it all those times

2:24:32was that Jim and Chris were telling a serialized story that never seemed like it was going to end. And so there was no point where you went. Oh, that was a great gambit story. I wish they would collect that gambit story. And I I see that still as a problem in comics in that just tell a story guys. That's it. Don't tell me this story is going to last three issues and then disappear. Or don't tell me this story is going to be like in this issue and then in that issue and then I have to buy this other issue in order to understand who this character is. Like just tell a story and then end it. Have the end. And then guess what? You got to come back next week. Something else is going to happen. And what's so funny to me is is that when I look at the Avengers,

2:25:33when Roy Thomas and and John B. Sema were doing those stories that even an Android can cry. Oh, yeah. The two-part story and it's brilliant. It's beautifully drawn. Same, but it so goes back to what Stan and Jack were doing. Stan and Jack would just tell stories that last. Sometimes there were singles, but sometimes they were like indivinative zone. And you could now, if you wanted to, you could take those books and you could make them a hard cover and make them a thing. Call and fantastic for it into the negative zone. Stanley Jack could get them out there. Right? No, Jeff, you're so damn smart and you should be run running a label period in the story. Run a label because nobody wants to listen to your own label.

2:26:33So land this plane telling us what we have to look forward to. Kirkman does. That's how we built that company. Yes, collections. Yes, you should take to me all the time. I go, just the walking dead cell and he would go, who cares? Yeah, you know, sells the collections. He goes, people have volume one through 19. That's the thing. Well, that's what I sign. And I'm like, do you get it? You just get it. Well, Jeff, you get it. And what are we going to get from you? I know you got top secret projects up the wazoo. Not my, uh, uh, I can't say anything about it, but you got some top secrets. That's working on it. It's in fact, I'm so excited that I got to do this today because it's, I don't have to write. So it's, uh, are you telling me you don't have other projects? I'm working on us. That's what I'm telling you.

2:27:33Hey, everybody, if you have video right now, look at my face. Okay, let me do it again. All right. Well, Jeff, uh, look, here's the deal. You're like family to the lifefills. We love you. We love your family. Love your family. And I need you to speak up my funeral if I pass before you. Okay. So, uh, so, so just, uh, and now I'll make the audience will know you need to go last. Okay. Joy will determine. I'm going to clear that with joy. So you got to speak up my funeral. If I, I just don't think I'm living a long time. But, uh, so if I go before you, you got to do that. You got to do this. Hey, that you're not put that into the universe and you not do that to joy, who is, I think there was never a more appropriate name given to. It's correct. And the fact that you met his kids. Yep. And you asked her to post to you in a colorful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They easily think in the world. But special readily romantic and nobody else can do it ever.

2:28:37Yeah. Uh, and. And at the end of the day, and I, you know, I write this to you every single day, every single time she's on. Uh, I, I, why do you think? What? I just, why do you think I pulled her onto my socials? I, I, that was my idea. I'm like, people have got to be so bored. Let's get joy in here. And she's like, I, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, it doesn't matter. Just have fun. Everyone will love seeing you figure it out. And now she's an ace. And she beats me all the time, which I love. Uh, at the games. Uh, so. Azing. Watching her and I, it's why I, but I have, I do have to ask you this one thing. First of all, I have to tell you, I, I posted, uh, I hardly post on anybody's thing. And usually when I do, I, I post, I love your work. Thank you. Yeah. No. Yeah. Your Instagram. Yeah. When I post, uh, I post, of the other day, I posted.

2:29:38That joy had it right and Rob cut it off. 600 people. 600 people commented that they liked my comment. That's awesome. Like, I don't have 600 people on my Instagram. I'm here for you to farm. Get, get, get those people, get those comments. I'm here for you. You know, so I, I've had to train myself to really stop looking at them. Because then I'll just argue with everyone or say, I, I just enjoy it. It's funny. I, you can't remember that old saying. If you're explaining your losing. Uh, so I just, I just put it out there and we have fun. Uh, yeah, Jeff, I mean, I, I can't think of anybody. Other than Robert, who has his own label that has, as many important collections. Like I said, I just, I didn't grab any of the Marvel stuff. The red hoax. I mean, they did that. They flip, they turned the switch. They, they go back to, you know, when, when, when red Hulk became the star of Captain America for,

2:30:39I mean, suddenly the glow up. But Marvel is, look, no one's gonna, in another show, we'll, we'll tell everybody. I truly believe you changed how people were paid in this industry and, and you told me the formula in 1998. And it became the formula that Marvel integrated by, by looking at future sales of trades and hard covers. And we'll go over it some other day. Your man, this industry, Jeff, you're, I do want to give a shout out to the, the color books, is that those are, I think the best work that I've done. Oh, Spider-Man, I've given, yes, Spider-Man, uh, blue, no cap, cap white, Daredevil yellow, Spider-Man blue, Hulk Gray, they're brilliant. Yeah, no, to me, doing what he loved, which was getting to tell stories that San and Jack don't like that's what he cared about. Thank you for introducing me to Tim, so many fun times. We ate ants together at the Santa Monica, whatever that restaurant was that you brought us to. We ate fried ants.

2:31:41I never thought I'd be putting fried ants. I don't believe you partook. But, but, but we, we had a, we had a good time. No, those are, I don't think that restaurant exists anymore. Yeah, it makes me sad. It doesn't, but that was a great restaurant. Oh my gosh. Joseph Loeb, you do have the best taste and you have the best taste in podcasts because you didn't mind today, okay? I did. I did. And I, and I, I, I showed him on it and with, with, I started to tell a story and I didn't tell the story I was telling the story about. You know, I'm trying to come up with being at the end of the rainbow and it, I have two sort of fundamental moments in my life. And one is very recent and one is a long time ago. And I'm not talking about, in, in my career, I'm not talking about it in my personal. And,

2:32:44when I was 25 years old, and we still the script to come in now and my account said to me, because I was renting, you should buy a house. And, and I was like 25 years old. I don't know if I'm gonna buy a house. I didn't know where I felt it was. It had a mansion and 42. Any yachts? Basically, I knew you. Not only two of us get back. And so, I, I bought a little house in Benedict Canyon. And I don't know if you remember this, Rob. But I was in the pool. When you buy a house, there, and in the first three or four weeks that you have it, you literally walk around the house and like, like if a picture frame is crooked, there's a little crack. And you paint it. And after about three or four weeks, finally you go,

2:33:44I have to stop doing this or I'm gonna be doing this for the rest of my life. I just need to live in this house. So, it's about three or four weeks. And I'm sitting in my living room in this house. And I looked around. And I, like it was yesterday. And I said to myself, I wrote a house. I didn't borrow the money. I didn't ask my parents for the money. I didn't have money. Love it. I didn't, you know, it wasn't like I was a trust fund baby. I didn't, you know, work my ass off as a, well, then it was a bartender. Thank you, cocktail. But I wrote a house. And I remember that feeling of sort of prod. And, yeah, not that golf. I don't, you know this all the time.

2:34:45I'm like, no, I'm, yeah. It's important that you felt that way. In about a month ago, I'm sitting in my current house. And I'm at the end of the rainbow. And I'm put funny enough, I still have that same chair. And I'm sitting in the chair. And I look outside and it's completely different backyard. And a much different house. And I, I suddenly had this feeling which was, it's time for you to stop apologizing for your legacy. And it's time for you to accept your legacy. You don't have to wear it like a bag. Just accept that for 40 years, you've never had another job. Except as a storyteller. Yep. That's awesome.

2:35:45And the, and the books and movies and television shows that you've been involved in, people know like, yep, you weren't on some show that people go, I've never heard of that. I don't know what's starting to happen. And it's okay to feel good about it. Yeah. And it's, it's completely sort of changed my life. Like, I mean, I suddenly got this is like a few weeks ago. This is not like, well, I had to pick any five years ago. Like, it's, it's, and it's a really nice feeling. And I'm really so grateful to my friends, my family and my fans. And, fans, who allowed me to do the thing that I always wanted to do, which was tell stories. And, and I have. Jeff, that, that is beautiful.

2:36:46I love hearing it. I, I, I, I think it's important to, to feel that. Um, I agree. I mean, I'm with you about your assessment of you. And, uh, but you've always, one of the things that I've really admired about you. And I think some people take it because they're awful. They take it as hubris. And, and it's not hubris. And if you don't know the word hubris, anybody, um, eat, eat is proud. And that moment in Deadpool Wolverine, with it, two of them, two of the biggest stars in the world. In the biggest R rated movie until two days in the world. A walking out. And the sign says life's held on it. You have to feel good. Jeff, it was a, uh, it was a super fun moment.

2:37:48It, it is. And it's, uh, it's, we have passion for comic books. You grew up loving them. I grew up loving them. They took us to different places. We, they, they, they were our escape. They were our comfort. And so the fact that we both got to contribute to them. All the people, all the great people. I've talked to who got to contribute. Uh, and, and as you know, you get out there. You meet the fans, the support system that we, that they have. Jeff, you're loved. You're beloved. You're a legend. Uh, you're, you're, you're pantheon level. You're, you're, you're a Mount Rushmore Batman guy, okay? I mean, so I'm glad you've you've decided to just enjoy it. Um, we all run real hard. I, I, I, the 90s, I've told people, there's a reason I retired for three years. And, and so did Jim and so did Mark and so did Todd. And we ran that as hard. It was like we were nonstop touring for nine and a half years. And at the end of the day, we just fell flat. I mean, we literally collapsed.

2:38:50I think out of sheer exhaustion. I didn't really start enjoying everything, probably until 10 years ago too. So I'm glad that you are, uh, as well, uh, just. Jeff, it's because of all your stuff getting collected. I was like, I need to get back in and I need more collections. And again, like in my world, that I control. Because like you said, letting the other people. Uh, that look, I've fallen on the bad side of publishers to the point where they will print. And I don't mind. I don't give a shit. Uh, my good friend Dan Didio, who decided to cut my team titan's issues out of the reprints. I laughed out loud. There was no fury. There was no thunder. I'm like, all right. So, so this is the level we're going to. I got you. You know, that's what you're up against it when the power is not in your hands. Somebody can just go, I'm not including these issues. I hate this guy. And I'm removing them. And so that that's the kind of stuff that you're subject to.

2:39:53Uh, you know, George Lucas was on CBS this morning today about the museum. And he said, I've always been a contrarian. And I've angered people. But contrarians think out of the box. And people don't like them some, sometimes. But I'm okay. I understand. And I was like, wow. And also we're not sheepish. You don't have a sheepish personality. Neither do I. And but we do enjoy comic books. And we, I loved talking comic books with you today, Jeff and television and movies and. Look. Thank you for doing the show. Thanks for taking this time today. We got, we got to do a part two. We're going to get part two on the schedule. We made it through an hour, two hours without the screen going black or freezing. So that's that's tremendous. So, so we finally found the good algorithm or the good, the good Wi-Fi stream to surf. All right. So we'll do part two. You want to come back anytime you know me?

2:40:55All right, buddy. You got to speak up my funeral. And everybody we are going to, we are going to thank Joseph Loeb, the third. Go watch, commando. Go watch for that credit. Yeah, Jeff, when Jeff talked about Schwarzenegger earlier, it's, it's, it's from experience. Commando is like a top three Schwarzenegger movie in the cannon. So go go watch Teen Wolf as Jeff said, go watch commando. Go have a great time. Jeff, we had a great time today. Thank you. I am going to sign us off this episode is going to take forever to upload. So my friend have have a have a have a great rest of the day and we will, I will see you soon. We will talk soon. We do me promise and give big hugs to Joy and. You guys are going to have a big hug. Yes, I love you guys. That's what I do. I was just going to say I love you guys. You're in the same. Because because everybody is. Living doing great. Living is great. Shaces great. Live is having a great time in her. Yes, she's going to give the inner great. She's having a great life.

2:41:55Oh, to be a livielife field. I know that on. She's jobry. She's swim. She's the alcohol tries. Alcohol tries to San Francisco. San Francisco. It took her an hour and 20 minutes in open water. I'm so proud of her. Sharks. My sister. Okay. So my sister got married a week ago. Why I'm telling you that is someone. Someone at the wedding is talking to me and said, Oh, yeah, my niece is swimming to Alcatraz today. And I'm like, are you crazy? Only to find out 24 hours later that your daughter swam to Alcatraz. And I said to this lady, there's sharks there. So iron woman. Dude, just please send her my best. You know, she's fantastic. Everybody will be back on again real soon. I'm not doing an additional sign off today. Jeff is going to watch me sign off.

2:42:55Thank you for listening. Take care of yourself, stay at a trouble. We'll be back with more episodes. You know, the deal we do this twice a week come rain comes shine. And we're going to have a Jeff back on real soon. Jeff, thanks. Thank you, sir. Take care of yourself and we are signing off.