Zibby Owens on Losing the Plot, Starting Over, and Building a Life Around Books Description:

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3:20So find the fall pieces that you will reach for the most at Quints. Download the Quints app for app exclusive offers easy or go to quints.com slash hat maker. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. That's quints quince.com slash hat maker. Hey everybody, welcome to the For the Love podcast. I'm Jen Hatmaker. Happy to be here with you. So this one's like calling all book lovers, calling all readers, calling everyone who has faced down a reinvention here in the middle of life. It's all in today's episode. We have a really just a phenomenal woman really fascinating and smart and interesting.

4:23We've got Zibi Owens today. A lot of you already know who that is. Zibi is one of the book worlds most tireless and warm-hearted connectors. That's exactly what I told her today. She's a podcaster for one. She's interviewed over 2,000 authors. She's a publisher. She has she made up her own publishing company from Finair. She's a bookstore owner and she is a self-described accidental activist not to mention. She's an author herself. So people call her a book flu answer, but what she really builds this community. And I think what makes her such a great guest is how genuine she is, how truthful she is about sort of the the sometimes mess in chaos underneath all that energy. She was once, she'll tell you, a stay at home, Mama 4, the Upper East Side

5:24in New York City, who didn't even have time to read. And she reinvented her whole life in her 40th. I mean her whole life. New career, new marriage, new name, new voice. And she writes about all of that with humor and zero pretense. Her new memoir, which is written out in essays, is called Between Chapters. And it just came out yesterday and she's going to tell you all about it. There's going to be so many pieces that you hear today that you go, oh yeah, yeah, that's me. That's me. I relate to that. I identify with that. I'd like to hear more about that. She is a delight and we are so happy to have Zibi Owens with us today. All right, Zibi, I'm so happy to see you again. I'm so happy to see you. So do you. Thank you for

6:30having me. You're welcome. What a fun time. Your whole life's books. We're going to get to it. And you are generally in the interviewer seat and the curators seat. And for this little season, you are the author of the moment. I'm thrilled for you. I'm excited. Your book, for all of our listeners, Zibi's brand new book comes out tomorrow and we are going, no, it came out yesterday. It came out yesterday. So we're going to get into it. Let's start here because just in case I'm introducing you to my community, I know a lot of my community is already in your world because we are readers and book people. And but some people will just be meaning. So let's start here. Okay, I love this. I read this that when you were 10, your step grandfather, great term, was an actual like miniature book publisher.

7:30Would you say that's a thing. And your grandmother published, well, you just tell the story. Yes. And I love that you picked that out. When I was about 10 years old, I had just started writing and I had a short story I wrote, which I recently reread and is so terrible, but it's okay. It was so sweet of them to be this great. But you know, we have standard anyway, but it was long and I guess that impressed them. And then I also had an essay I wrote for school. It was an assignment to write in the style of Rudyard Kipling. So I wrote how the donut got its whole. And they took these two essays and as a surprise for my birthday, turned them into this adorable miniature book, which I wish I had with me, but I don't. And my spine was like embossed into the, my name was embossed in the spine. And they gave me 20 copies with this marbleized endpapers. And I was like, oh my gosh, well, this is it. I'm going to be an author. This is what I want to do with my life. I've got to just keep making these books. So that was 40 years ago. I'm telling you, I'm trying,

8:35I'm getting, I'm going back to 10 year old Jen. And if somebody would have given me a tiny miniature bound copy of my own writing, that's it. Like hang it up. Right? Game of war. Like nobody could tell me shit after that. I would have probably taken that to school every day. Oh yeah, it was so close. I was like, I was like, signing tiny little books. I love this. Did you, what sense of writing did you have when you were 10? Like, was that really something locked into your bones already? Or, or did that come, I mean, obviously it came into clarity later with, you know, more accuracy. But did you really know that early? Like, this is my path. I really knew how much I loved it based on how much I loved to read. Like, as soon as I learned to read, I was totally hooked. I was reading all the time. I was like hiding in the bathroom, tear streaming down my face, reading Charlotte's web. I mean, as soon as you become a book lover,

9:35I feel like many people think, well, could I do this? How did this person do this? I want to try this myself. And I think that's where it came from. Just idolizing the people who had written the books that I loved and wanting to just give it a shot. Oh, that's so great. Who did you love throwing up? Who did you do that? Oh, listen, when I was like in maybe third or fourth grade, my teacher called my mom and said, I'm just so little bit worried about Jennifer. Like, just during every recess, she just is sits under a tree with a book and she doesn't play. She doesn't have friends. I just books were my friends. Those were my stories. Those were the worlds. I was really shy and awkward. And I must have read the secret garden, oh, 100 times, probably 100 times. Those little worlds, the little princess, all the Nancy Drews. I mean,

10:41just there you name it. I love the little Harry series. I was yeah, all the Judy blooms. Every. I was I was hooked early. And I was also shy, by the way. I was really shy. Yeah, I was really shy. In particular, like seventh and eighth grade, I just like could not even speak, like could not at all. I would just like watch groups talk. And I remember focusing hard on conversation patterns and being like, how are they doing that? They're just jumping in easily and then getting out and jumping in. Like, I don't get it. I can only do that around people I was comfortable with. So I feel like there is such comfort in books. They have no expectations for you. And when you're writing, you don't have to navigate any of that. You're just, I mean, now it's fine, but back then. Yeah. I it's not funny that we have found our way into these highly visible careers with such like in auspicious beginnings. I was just like that. So so awkward, so nervous, so shy.

11:41Did I was either like absolutely zero or a hundred. I didn't have any concept of restraint. I was either trying so hard or not at all. Like my teacher saying she just said something retreat with a book. But are you still people? How people always say to you though, like, I can't believe you used to be shy. Look at you now. And you're like, Oh, no, I was. I have these old pictures and I will pull like I'm going to look at this girl. Does this girl suggest she had any confidence? And then I'm a disaster. The everything is disastrous. When did you feel like you kind of stepped into your voice and more a sense of confidence in self awareness and even self-assurance? I mean, last year, no, I'm kidding. No, I feel like it's come in big spikes. Like, I feel during college when I was finally out of the house, I felt like I had a much clearer

12:42identity. And then after college and then after kids, everything got all muddled. And then post divorce, I feel like I really came into my voice very, very clearly. Yeah, you know, I understand how about you. Same thing. You just felt very, a lot of affinity for that sort of story for sure. And it is interesting to think, Oh, okay, I think I'm there. I've sort of plateaued. I know who I am. I've got my deal. And then life does a big life. And you the plat, you spike back up again. I thought, that was the same for me post divorce. I mean, I kind of thought, well, this is pretty much as good as it gets before. And then realized, Oh, I had a whole other gear in there. And that's a great segue because I want to talk about your book, which is called Between Chapters, such a great title. I love it. I love the title. I love the cover. Well done. You're a

13:46master at the craft. So of course, you came in with like clear ideas of aesthetics and language. But this was very hard because I actually had probably 200 different cover ideas I did in Canva, because I love Canva. I don't know. Anyway, and I even had it called Between Books until almost when the arcs were on the press. And I put on Instagram, like, wait a minute, shouldn't this be called Between Chapters? And so then I changed it the last minute. It was also called Catching Up. It was called, I don't know. This was not an easy slam dunk. It went through a lot of it or even. Okay. No, I'm happy. I'm happy that's where it is now. I love it. Between Chapters was the right call. Great catch. I always tell people, you know, I like you have a lot of aspiring writers that circle their wagons around me a lot, like looking for that magic secret sauce to like get into the thing. And I always let them know. I'm like, look, whatever title it is you

14:48have in your head. Just that's not going to be it. Like, just scrap it. You're going to go through so many iterations of titles or my least favorite thing, subtitles. And then cover design, just what just write your book. Like, don't be too fixated on some of the very, very final sort of outward facing iterations of it. Because girl, there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen when it comes to publishing. Like how can you name something that hasn't really been created? Great. You have to create the thing before you can like market it and package it up. Wait and see what it becomes. That's right. I think there's a romanticism to book marketing to the story of being a writer. It is a very romantic to me. Yeah. That's great imagery of it. The idea of the writer's cottage, the like the idea of a book tour. All of it is very idealized. And then there's

15:49the thing about writing, which is that you have to write it. And no one is come in to save you. You got to sit your ass in that chair and you really have to write your hard out. And my agent, Margaret was telling me right before I started writing awake. She gave me a term that I love and I will use it for the rest of my life. And now I tell other writers this. Because it was just sort of an idea at that point. Very, I mean, I had a clear point of view, but I had not fleshed out. And she just said, save nothing for the swim home. Oh my gosh. I love that. That's it. Love out to the middle of the ocean. And don't spare your energy to get back in case it doesn't work. Like all go all out personal best all the way to the middle. I just loved it. And so I feel like that's something that you have done here. You just mentioned subtitle. Your subtitle says you found the plot. So can you talk a little bit about what did losing the plot

16:55you look like? What did that mean? And just to put just to frame this up, you have dedicated the whole thing to Montjaro. Yes, I have. It tells us a lot. Honesty coming. Full steam ahead. Yes. That's the thing to hide. We're all you're all in here. You're not saving a lot for this swim home. So can you sort of give us a bit of the backstory? Some of us are losing the plot before we even know that we are. Yeah, I wasn't if you had asked me if I had lost it while I was in the period of time before. I'm not sure I would have said, oh yeah, I've totally lost the plot or not until it got to the very end. And then you realize you're like, oh no wait, I have to change something. But basically I was a perfectionist stick. Stay at home mom on the upper east side with color coded eye cal calendars for each of my four kids. I was like leading committees and doing all the things that I was supposed to be doing. Very responsible. Getting up at 455 to sign up for

17:57parent teacher conferences at five. I mean, it's such a joke because now literally I'm like, oh my gosh, wait, did I sign up for parent teacher conference for my fourth kid? But anyway, at the beginning, I was like totally dialed in. And then I just turned my life upside down. I got divorced. I started dating my tennis pro who I then married. I started a company when I had been at home, even though I had gone to business school blah blah. I just thought I wasn't going to be doing any that started doing all of that. I moved. I changed my name like my whole life is different, like completely different than it was. And look, feel identity in every way. And your to your question, what did it look like when I was losing the plot? It looked like a lot of tears. It looked like a lot of time on the bathroom floor crying and feeling like I couldn't wait for bedtime. Like, would bedtime come? How many more hours could I just get to bedtime? Why did there have to be another dinner?

18:59Like the notion that dinner was going to happen every night was so overwhelming to me. Like I have to feel this out again tomorrow. Like I can't cross it off the list. So that was kind of where I was coming from. Watching all my friends who I'd gone to school with, like with these great jobs and achieving all this stuff. And I wanted to be a stay-home mom and I don't regret it at all. I'm so happy for the time I spent with my kids. And I'm very lucky that I was able to get to do that and all that. But it felt not great a lot of the time. And not just because I was home, but just like the some of the variables in my life were just not making me happy. And I thought that this was it. Like, okay, well, but I have this, but I have that. And I could easily rationalize it away. Like, so I so I don't laugh. All right, I don't need to laugh. Oh such a sad sentence. I know my brother, I literally went out to lunch with my brother before my life totally changed and laughed. And I

20:05remember telling him like, gosh, I don't even remember the last time I left. And he's like, what? How could that be? And it hadn't even, I hadn't even realized it. Now every day, I'm like cracking up. And we've laughed five times already. And it's like been five minutes. Wow. That's such a good like just tiny little slice of the pie to just pull out and go. For example, when you cannot remember the last time you belly laughed, that could be a red flag to pay attention to. Can you take us back a little bit more to that time? Because the bookends here are dramatic. You were upper east side for 55 a.m. Mayor, just the whole thing that you just described. And then over here, you are a podcaster, an author, a bookstore owner. We're going to get to that. A publisher, an activist.

21:06That is some road in between. You don't go from A to B in a month. So I wonder, you know my story and a lot of my listening community is around our age. And so we have, we share a lot of upheaval, a lot of change, a lot of loss. There's a there is a handful of story threads that a lot of us can understand. Can you go back to the early days when it's just seemed like WTS, you know, like what now? What do I do? I've been home raising these kids. I'm I'm not like that that those first 10 feet can be. Yes. It felt in a way like everything was so set that the other pads I could have taken were not even on the table anymore. Sure. Right. And so when you feel totally trapped and

22:11you're not really happy, then you can just feel so depressed. I mean, right. If there's no hope of of a change. And that's why I feel like now I'm giving advice all the time, like just one small step. And it sounds so hokey. But I the road that you mentioned, it was one small step at a time. Like I never dreamed that my life could even change this much. Nor was I looking for or expecting it. I just knew I had to make a couple changes. Some bigger than others. Or I just couldn't keep going on in that direction. It became less of a choice and more of like I need to do this out of like sort of a almost like a self preservation, soul preservation, if you will. To and also just to stop being so sad around my kids. I mean, I put this example in the book too, not to be like, what was me? Because on the other hand, I was so lucky, you know, living this wonderful life, like what would I have to be upset about? And yet I was and like hats off to Zolaugh, by the way, which I also like couldn't, you know,

23:16I could dedicate my next book to that, I guess, but I'm you know, you have to take those really important steps and and know that even though it feels like it's it's never going to get anywhere solid like it is. It's it's just if you don't move where everything it's like quicksand, right? Well, maybe that's a bad example because I think you sink no matter what, but anyway, you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. That's just so familiar. I in hindsight, it flattens out of it. You know, you can go, okay, well, I handled this and then that and then this and before I knew it, I was I was back in the driver's seat of my own life, but at the time, it is genuinely one day at a time. Yes. And those days are bananas and they can feel chaotic and I mean, I was having to learn how to manage my own money and I mean, I got married when I was 19, so I just had never ever had independent life, much less

24:21independent financial life. And so I can just remember even just taking out that as one example out of dozen that I had to sort of reinvent. Yeah. That was like two steps forward one step back, two step forwards, one step back. And I remembered like with papers spread all over my table, just going, I understand about 31% of this. You know, I'm like, it's just I wish there was a cleaner answer, but what you said is the truth. Well, what's today? What's what's today's work? What is what is required of me today? Yeah. And it was actually for me trying to get out of that moment. The moment you had with your bills laying there, like I feel like one of my moments was just standing in the hallway with all my kids rooms empty when they were with their dad. And my whole identity was like wrapped up in being the best mom I could be. Like that is what I had decided. And there I was in the hallway, like staring with like the New York City noise, the taxis whizzing by and the darkness, like the

25:25lights on the teddy bear. I mean, it sounds so hokey, but it's true. And just being like, oh my gosh, how did I get here? And what am I going to do with myself? And how am I going to get through this? Like the pain of not having custody of kids sometimes, even though they would be coming back in a few days is what ended up leading me to redoing my life because the therapist I was seeing at the time, who I also just ran into last week. And I was like, oh my gosh, Elizabeth what's going on? But she, I was talking to her about this feeling and she was reminding me of how much I had told her, how much I love to read. And she was saying, you know, with a good book, you'll never be lonely. Just get back into reading. Just like, you know, don't miss the plot. And I really owe a lot to her for that because I was like, yeah, I can get into reading again uninterrupted with Avengers. And like, let's see where that goes. So tapping into something that you've loved in the past, I think, is really important when you're going through a time where you forget who you even are.

26:26And I mean, you took that, you ran that ball all the way down the field because your therapist might have meant get a library card. Yeah. But some books out, read on the weekends. And you'd instead built a little kingdom. You built a little book kingdom. So I mean, you really took that to heart. Yeah. She's probably what she meant. Yeah, she's like, that's not what I meant. Oh my gosh, calm down. I wonder if you could talk through a little bit that evolution of your career now and your community that you have built. And because it probably started with one thing, but it is now so layered and so multi-dimensional, it's grown. My guess is beyond what you expected. I'd love to just

27:29hear the early notes to that particular song. Yes, the early notes. Okay, so I've always been very driven in whatever I'm doing, even if I don't know where I'm going. I didn't, I'm like a good student, right? In school, I was always finishing every assignment and getting things in early. So when I have something on my radar, like I have to do it as well as I possibly can, even if it's you know, packing, which I talk about in the book, like my perfectionist say, I have to pack well. I mean, so stupid, but it's true. It certainly was was more true before. But once I started reading, like back when we, what we were just talking about at the beginning, I started writing again, inspired by the books I was reading at the time. And actually in between chapters, I mentioned your book because I was, it was one of the things that helped me the most. And I'm not just saying this, like during a period of all this anxiety that stemmed around this life. But anyway,

28:36I started reading, I started writing, and I hadn't, I had been publishing essays, which I loved to write since I was 14 years old. And my first essay came out in 17 magazine. That's like my preferred form. I can like do it in my sleep. I loved to write essays. But I had really gone on hiatus. Let's just say during this period of time in my life. And so I got back into essay writing. And one of the essays I wrote, which I wrote, like on an airplane and uploaded to Huff Post, by the time I woke up in LA the next morning, it had gone viral. And it was called a Mother's Right to Sanity, which I put in between chapters. And it was just about the chaos of managing all the things having to do with kids. And at the end of the essay, I'm just not going to bring in the empty toilet paper rolls to the preschool. I just can't. I'm like, I'm fed up. I'm not going to do it. So I started getting encouraged to write again. I, over the next year, wrote, I don't know, 50 essays, something crazy. And then I was like, well, maybe I could try to sell this as a book because I had

29:36written a novel after business school. I had lost my best friend on 9-11. She died working in the North Tower. And I had written a whole book about that. But I fictionalized it. It hadn't sold. So I still had this dream in my head that I would get a book published. And I wanted to honor her memory and blah, blah, blah. So I thought, well, maybe this could be the first book. I'll put all of these essays into a collection. And I was talking to Kyle, who's now my husband, about it after, you know, a year after I had started writing these essays. And he said, you should turn them into a book. And I was like, oh, mom, I don't have time to read books. And I was like, oh, wait, that's so funny. That's what I called the book. And so I tried to sell that. And nobody wanted to buy that book. I wasn't on social media, even though I had been freelancing for magazines forever. And then eventually a girlfriend who I met by giving a talk, funny enough, about how shy I had been as a child and how writing helped me find my voice. She was in the audience for that and offered to help me and said her name is Sarah. I'm like, I'm asking you, she's a middle grade

30:37author. And she said, I'm really good at figuring out what people should do. And I don't think this book is your next step. And I was kind of like, I just, thank you. Have you know? But then a few days later, I was running out of school and she was running into school because we had kids at the same school. And she said, you should start a podcast. And that's really just how it started. In a million years, I would never have started a podcast in 2018. Like I didn't even know how to listen to a podcast. But that's what I mean by these tiny steps. Like, yeah, I downloaded an app on my bed and like recorded into my phone. And I was like, let me just, I don't know, let me just try it. I'm not even gonna tell anybody. So that's that's the one thing that has led to so many other things. I've picked up tips from stylists I've worked with. And one of those is the capsule mindset, which works for not just clothes, but jewelry too, which is where Jenny Bird comes in for me. They make the ultimate jewelry capsule wardrobe look like lightweight, effortless staples that make you look instantly put together. So instead of having this huge box of fussy pieces,

31:41waiting around for a special night out, Jenny Bird designs elevated necklaces and bracelets and earrings that you will actually wear every single day. Everything in their collection works together so that you can kind of mix and match it without even thinking about it. It's some of the best quality for the price that I've ever seen. And it has a high end timeless look that stays relevant from season to season every time I throw on my favorite pieces, someone asking where I got them. It just takes any stress out of accessorizing. Get a free gift with your first Jenny Bird order when you shop at Jenny dashbird.com. It was a gruesome discovery off a dirt road in Georgia. Hunters had found a body. Was it immediately clear to you that this woman had been murdered? Yes. But who was this mystery woman in the woods? That looks like Mindy. I'm Erin Moriarty and from 48 hours, this is the woman in the woods.

32:42I have never wanted to be wrong like this in my whole entire life. Follow and listen to the woman in the woods wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If I could wake up tomorrow with one new skill on lock, I'd love love to be the kind of person who effortlessly puts my phone away at night and actually unwinds rather than scrolling, scrolling, scrolling sometimes until midnight. I'm getting better at this but it has taken work. We all have those everyday habits or personal goals we're trying to work through whether it's just like handling daily stressors with more patients or making time to recharge. And I'm telling you that therapy can be a great tool to help you navigate those personal shifts and build strategies that actually stick. Better is a feeling defined by you. And for BetterHelp, it's a BetterHelp therapist who really gets you. It's a focus on

33:45global, emotional well-being with thousands of therapists and millions of members in over 100 countries you guys. This is major progress. And it's getting better at creating healthier habits that help you show up fully in your day-to-day life. If you have been considering starting therapy, signing up is straightforward and flexible. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash hat maker. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash hat maker. I love that. And so when you started your podcast, did you have an immediate point if you wanted? What was your angle? What did you say? How did you put it in the world? So I wanted to be a resource for all my busy mom friends who were lamenting the fact that they didn't have time to read. Now I suddenly had time to read when my kids were gone on the every other weekend. So I kind of wanted to help them. I wanted to read the articles. I thought we're amazing. I wanted to talk to the authors behind the books that

34:50I was reading, which I had done in some interviewing in the past for magazines, but not in audio form. I wanted to be helpful. I wanted to just be myself. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I wanted to just be, just because you're a mom doesn't make you not a reader. It doesn't make you not smart. You know what I mean? All the stuff that you are as a person, just because you happen to be quote-unquote at home doesn't go away. So I wanted to give a little infusion of get to know these books, get to know the authors, have a little dose of something soulful and and you know, median. I just decided to ask, I was doing this for myself really. I was like, these are the things I want to know. Like when I talk to you, Ted, it's like, I'm not reporting to someone on this podcast. Like I'm doing it because I spend hours picking which books I want to have and which authors I want to talk to. And so I am legitimately curious and interested in the people

35:53that I'm talking to. And I think that sort of comes through and I wanted it to be conversational and not like in any way, hoidi-toidi literary. You know, talking about books, it's really talking about life. And I just wanted to like hear from the authors. So that's how it started. And then what came next after that? After that, one of my, well then as we were talking about book publicity, I guess before we started recording and how we can say to ourselves, we're not going to get caught up in it. But then you do. Once I got a feeling that people were responding to the podcast, I was like, oh wait, I think I have something that is resonating. Now I have to make it the best I possibly can. And so the next thing I did was that Danny Shapiro, who is one of my favorite authors, she was doing a podcast at my house, which came about because I also like was not afraid to ask anybody I knew to introduce me to. I was, I knew three authors, like what did I know? And then I was like, can anybody, does anybody know these people? Like I'll just, I'll just ask, what's the

36:58harm in asking? They can say no. Sometimes they do. I mean a lot of people said no, a lot of the time. It took me like six different asks over five or six years to get Anna Quinlan to come on my show. And anyway, now we're like friends, but it's fine. But I just was interviewing her and she said, you should have like an author salon downstairs and you're living her. Like you should just, there are people who do this in New York, like you should just have this. And I'd be happy to be your first guest. And I was like, okay. So I said sure. So I had her back. I just planned it. And that's another thing. Like I don't put things off. So as soon as she's with that, I like get my calendar and I'm like, yeah, about April 12th or whatever it is. And we locked it in. And I sent out a paper list post to literally everybody I knew. And I was like, come on over. Listen to me interview Danny live. And that's what I did. I just invited everybody over. And it was amazing. And by the way, as soon as I started interviewing authors and I'd love to hear like how you feel

37:58about interviewing, like it was the coolest thing ever. Like, like, this is what I want to do is ask people about themselves, like skip the small clock. Like this is the stuff that I'm like madly passionately interested in. I can never get tired of this. People's personal stories. I mean, it sounds actually kind of creepy. I hope it's not going to make a cross that way. I'm not like inviolate. But I'm just curious. So I kind of caught the bug of it all. And then I started this event series. So Danny's was the first. And then I like, and I had gotten on social media. And then I posted about it. And then I started getting like trickling in some followers. And then people would say, Oh, I hear you have a podcast. And next thing you know, authors would ask to come on. I was like, Oh my gosh. Yes. Of course I'll have you on. And I made like a whole wish list of authors. And I was like, How can I make this even bigger? And then a couple months later, I thought, wouldn't it be cool if I sold somehow all the books of all these people and got them all

38:58in the same room and had like little book fair? So I feel like, so then I started having book fairs every six months in my apartment with another bookstore that came in to sell the books. And people were like, leaving with stacks of books in there. And the bookseller was like, you do know this is like amazing, right? And I was like, Oh, I'm just like having so much fun. This is great. And they were like, No, no, this is like special. And I actually think that that is how I ended up opening a bookstore. Like that was the first curated selection of books for a particular audience. So it's all happened like that that I'm doing one thing. I'm like, wouldn't it be cool if? Oh, that is so fun to hear about. I love the idea of just the first of it all. Just sending out an invitation. Everybody just come to my house. Yeah. We're gonna have a thing. It's just it's brand new. I don't know what I'm doing. Like, this is the first time we've ever done it. But just come over and watch. And like, the way that those steps of courage and vision and not being risk averse,

40:05bloom and develop into such like amazing work. And it is so true. Like, when you locate your career inside a genre that fascinates you, that you love, that you genuinely love, it just feels fake. I cannot say that many times. I have like looked around and been like, why do people pay me to do this? Like, I, this is fun. Like, this is interesting. Like, this is creative and invigorating. And I am meeting all these heroes and like superstars. And getting invited into rooms. I didn't even know exists. And I'm like, why is this a job? Why do I get to do this? And I, I, we're lucky. We're lucky that books turned into work for us. I didn't know that was real.

41:11I mean, I was a reader just like you as a kid, but like being a writer just seemed fake. Like, who's a writer? I didn't know any right. That's not a job. That's not like, that's not for normal. That's for mortals. Mir, that's not for mortals. And so I just feel really, really lucky about it. I want to go back to the book because I'd like to hear you talk a little bit more. You've touched on it here a couple of times, but 40 love. Let's go back to 40 love. You are sitting around a table with a bunch of moms. Can you talk about that particular section of the book and your life? Of course. So I went through a period of time after my ex-husband and I separated. And before I could, I really told anybody because I didn't want to tell anybody before we had told the kids. So there was this period of time where I was just acting kind of not myself when people later

42:11told me they thought maybe I was sick or they didn't know what was happening. And finally, I got this sort of okay from the universe to share the news. And it was a lot of news at once because instead of telling everybody that I was separating, it turned out that I had also fallen in love with Kyle who's, you know, we've been married now for nine years. It's like, you know, old hat, so to speak, but they didn't know that either. And even though a lot of time had elapsed, like I just leave them, I just said it to them all at once. I was like, you guys. Guys, I've got news. I've got news. Buckle up. Yes. And I remember it so clearly we were at this Mexican restaurant. It was so loud. Everybody was drinking pictures and having chips and salsa and laughing and talking and, you know, travel soccer this and blah, blah, blah, like all the things. And I was like, I have to tell you something. And first I said, you know, I'm getting divorced. And everybody was like, oh my gosh, like, are you okay? And I'm like, no, no, I'm okay. I'm okay. I was

43:15like, but I'm also in love and I'm dating my tennis pro. And I literally thought they would like fall on the floor. And I knew this was like such an outrageous thing to say. Like, like, it was like out of a movie. But it actually actually happened. It's just how it was. Just how it was. And I quickly learned from that moment, like people's reactions are the total litmus test for what is going on in their own lives. Some people started crying. Some people were like, go you. And like, you know, I started hearing all sorts of secrets. But right there in that restaurant, I didn't know how anybody was going to take it. I knew how to hear it sounded so bad. I was like, oh my gosh, this sounds terrible. And that's when I, I like first put it out into the world. And, you know, it was really terrible. Not all my friends. I mean, most of those girls

44:15stood by my side, but not all. And, you know, there was a lot of friend, a people in the aftermath. I feel like whenever a marriage blows up, people scatter and then, you know, reconvene as you ride about. And so that, that happened next. But yeah, that was the first moment. I think I was 39 when that 38, 39, when that happened anyway. Yeah. Shocking. Shocking. Married nine years. It worked out. It did. I knew it. I knew it would work out. And people also thought I was crazy about that. They were like, this is a crazy rebound thing. And I'm like, no, no, you don't get it. Like I basically found, he's like my soulmate. I didn't believe in soulmates. But he, like, this is it. We're going to be together forever. And everyone's like, uh-huh. Yeah. Let's see. Every so often I want to call like this one particular, sure, one-piece person and just be like, yeah, you want to come to my anniversary? Dinner. I'm up on 10 years. I'm up on 10 years. You know, still a rebound? What do you think?

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48:31Did you know the September is world Alzheimer's month? Didn't until recently and it got me thinking most of us really never check our brain health until something feels off. I've watched two close family members go through major cognitive decline, which is it's devastating. And it occurred to me that I don't have any data on my own long-term risk. So, that's why I took action and started tracking my numbers with function health. This is wild, but your focus and mental stamina actually leave a pretty clear data trail in your blood. So, function tracks those essential brain health biomarkers like Omega-3 index to fuel brain cell membranes in Homo-Sistine, which can link to brain fog when elevated. Plus, function members can access advanced add-on tests like Alzheimer's risk test to check for inherited genetic predispositions long before symptoms ever show up. It just

49:32gives you complete visibility and what is happening inside your body so you can take control earlier. Check your brain and health the way I do. Function provides 160 plus lab tests for a dollar a day and member pricing on advanced imaging. Join at functionhealth.com slash for the love and then use code for the love 25 for a $25 credit. What has it looked like inside your family for the last decade? Yeah, there was a lot of change obviously at first. A lot of emotions, a lot of displacement, resettling, a lot of therapists. Oh god. But we're a very close family and it took another stretch of time after telling people for Kyle to sort of enter the picture fully with the kids and they were really accepting.

50:38I mean, my twins now were 19. They're going off to college in the fall and I have a 13 and 11 year old. So the older kids knew what was up but the little kids were so young. Yeah, they were you know, they were just like, oh, I mean at one point my daughter asked me like, oh, do you know my dad? No, like yeah, I do actually. That's amazing. Do you know my dad is funny? Oh boy, oh that's great. How are you feeling? Did you say they're going off in the fall? They are. I do and I struggled with my first. Oh, give me some advice. Well, okay, I'll just tell you this because I also have a big family. Four kids is a lot of F5 and I just it just felt so monumental. I mean, we'd never been anything but a unit, you know, and having one of them out of the house just I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe what was happening to me. Like I know that's how it goes but I just thought somehow we are going

51:40to avoid this and I was pretty weepy that whole senior year and but I really, really struggled. What I will tell you is I mean, they come back like it's not over. They're it's it's different but it's not it's not the catastrophe that it seems like like by the time you get down to number four, you'll be like chop chop kid or type up those boxes. It just you have a different kind of revolving door at the home and it has its own magic. Like the college kids coming back is like a brand of parenting that's just right there and that in between in between childhood and adulthood that is so fun. It is so fun to watch. It is nerve-racking of course but I don't know. These will be the biggest tears you cry as my guess and the more that you start launching the rest of them, you'll go, okay I know how this goes. I know how this goes now. All that said how you doing? I'm doing okay.

52:45I'm trying to remember that I got a crash course in this really early right if I had never gotten divorced and they were leaving it looks so different but every other weekend they're all gone and then they all come back. So it's like the the faucet turns off and then it floods. So it feels like you know it's going to be an adjustment but I'm really excited for both of them are so happy about what they're doing. I mean FaceTime it's like you know my older daughter who's 19 is she'll FaceTime me like 16 times a day. She already FaceTime me did it like she's already texted me as I've been talking. It's like it's like I don't think that's going away no matter that she's in college. I mean I hope it does but not I mean not really I don't really hope but you know what I mean? I do like it's sort of packaged as such an ending. It just really isn't. It's such a it's such a a gentle off ramp. Yeah. Like to the way that you have been parenting all these years but I mean

53:50to be honest with you like my youngest two or 20 and 22 almost 23 and sometimes I wish they'd lose my number. I'm like how many times can you call me in a day? Like is it for enough? Yeah so I'm like everybody it's okay. I remember my mom was a high school principal for years and years and years and when Gavin my oldest son was in his senior year and I was just a weepy mess over it and I just was so melodramatic as I am prone to be. I mean it's not like that's off brand and I remember her telling me she's like honey listen she's like when all these like cry crying senior moms come in to my office I always just tell them girl dry it up they'll be back I'm like mom you're so right God that is so true and it has ended up being true plus it is really fun to watch them turn into young adults really fun but that was our whole point. I remember we were doing all these years and then some of it sticks yeah and you're like oh my god you were listening

54:52um it's really really exciting um let's go back it's also not like it was when we went to college like when I went to college exactly I saw my mom or like maybe once a semester I don't know exactly now like kids are coming home all the time they're face-to-me they're texting it's like a whole different ballgame kit parents are in grab already been invited to like 16 different things and I'm like I don't think they're even gonna want me around this much so. So true I used to call my mom we had a standing date at such and such a time on Sunday and I would call her collect. Yes cell phone too. Yeah it was 1992 we have cell phones and so yeah you're completely right the world is different. They're they're not. I've also realized too with between chapters I ended up deciding to launch like an essay platform on substack where people can write about their own chapters because all of a sudden I was like okay this was mine these are the chapters I'm it but what about you like what chapter are you going through what do you what's what did you get through how can you help other people and these essays are coming through

55:56fast and furious we've had like we've like a hundred in the queue I haven't even had time to edit yet but one of the things is coming out the most and that I'm learning is every time you think you're getting to the end of one stage and you're gonna enter another it looks nothing like that or like you think you're gonna be able to like travel and this and that and have a peaceful life but really your kids come home all the time and your mom gets sick or you know you just don't know so I think I've learned and internalize that a little bit more from all this advice that I've that I've like manufactured myself to receive. Totally I I really love that and this is something I think that you've done really beautifully because yes you have I mean if we were going to parse them all out yes you've got a bookstore and you have a podcast and you're a publisher and you've got these really like any individual stream is other people's whole job and you are doing all of them. But what you've really done how it looks to me looking in the window of your work is that you've

57:02really built a space. I feel like you've built a place for women to come for women to belong for women to contribute that they're it's not just that their presence matters and their consumer dollars which those matter but their voice matters and their stories matter and that is much harder to do it is much harder to do that like it is it would it's easier to build sort of a clinical space that's all on a spreadsheet and it's just running the numbers and I wonder if you have a similar sense of your work this where we've got you in a series on my show we're exploring this idea of sacred work this month and and that looks different for people you know my whatever my sacred work is a some completely different from somebody else's but kind of this idea that our work I have to

58:07use Lord calling because it's loaded and it feels weird but it's it it can be so meaningful it can be so so so meaningful and and and even should be and so I'd love to hear your thoughts about some of the spaces that you have built that feel like they are anchored in connectivity yes thank you for that question because that is that the heart of everything that I'm doing like books are the connection vehicle and I love books don't get me wrong like I want to talk about books and whatever but when we're talking about books we are connecting we are learning about other people and when you get people like that in a room together and make I mean it sounds hokey to say safe space I don't mean it like that but like we have these we have retreats every couple months where we bring readers book lovers together it's not about the reading it's not about the writing it's just like people who love books already speak the same language and if you're interested in other people's stories

59:11and books you're generally is a mess stereotype but you're generally a nice person if you care a lot about other people right it's like it so it ends up couldn't bringing together lots of really nice interesting people who care about each other and their stories and that is the through line of everything and I love getting new stories from people so whether that's you know this move between chapters substack or on being Jewish now which is one of the three anthologies of Dunwo I asked authors to contribute stories about what that experience is felt like or during COVID I asked you know what what are you going through what do you not have time to do that now you have time to do like so I just love hearing other people and their takes on the world and I don't know if it's advice I don't know what it is if it's all just the antidote to sort of human loneliness or something but I do feel very called to bring out people's stories in a book in a book

1:00:14we're publishing and like why don't you write this memoir like getting people to connect where matters feels incredibly important to me and and so that's and that's actually how I I don't perhaps I should think more analytically I can think analytically about things right I can do the spreadsheets but this is not a spreadsheet type thing for me at all if it was I would probably do a much better job it sort of monetizing some of the things but that's another story this is about like do I feel that sense of like tinkling that I'm that something is working and if I don't then forget it like we launched a series of classes and that was lovely and actually was earning money and all this stuff but then at the end of the day I was like are am I bringing something into the world that is not being done am I doing it better than anybody else and I kind of wasn't I wasn't even really involved in the classes and I was like I don't think this is the best use case let's let's

1:01:17let's let's start doing this so I don't know this that is a great answer because I think a metric of sacred work if you will also includes when to say no you know that is part of it yes that not every idea is the best one and like this filtering of like what's my deal like what's my best work what's my highest point of contribution because really any one of us could find a mid-level category of a bunch of stuff we're okay yeah we're good enough um but it is a discipline to go I really want my work to sing and I want it to sparkle and I want to love it and that includes sometimes saying I think this we're gonna sunset this I've done that plenty of times plenty plenty of times even when some things um earning yeah and making money um I've got two

1:02:23things on the chopping block right now and I'm like I everybody I'm thinking yeah I'm thinking and they're like oh boy yeah you know how this ends um I'm gonna ask one last question before we close it up here um I'm thinking about you at 39 just on that kind of bathroom floor when just so much of what you knew and expected was unraveling and without a clear vision yet for what was coming it's really easy for you and I to sit here now in 2026 and marvel at all that you've built but you didn't know it back then I wonder I don't even know if you can have an answer for this but if you could hand one of the essays from between chapters to that 39 year old you which which one would you reach for what would you love her to know that that year I have one essay where I'm talking about making smores with my husband and in the essay there's a moment where I'm standing around

1:03:28the fire pit on my first vacation without the kids and I am making smores for myself because I love smores and I'm not making it for my kids and everybody else is there with their kids and I caught the eye of this totally frazzled mom who looked at Kyle and me like cuddling and obviously in love and whatever and she was just like oh what I wouldn't give for one moment of that and I was like no no no you don't understand like I was you like I'm not saying everybody should up and leave their marriages it's not what I'm saying but like there is a way you are not stuck your life is not over you can take these small steps to remember who you are and it is not selfish it is imperative oh so good that's kind of my life thesis right now it's just it is possible it is possible it is possible and there is no moment where everything is

1:04:31inevitable and we've lost all of our agency I don't care I don't care I I'm we're living proof of it sometimes change chooses us and sometimes we choose it and either way like evolution and change is possible and it's amazing to watch women in our age group rebuild and reinvent and reimagine and I am always saying this this is our decade to do it this is the smartest we've ever been like we're all in our best versions of ourselves like I know more now than I knew 10 years ago and certainly 20 my gosh and we've lived and we've lost and we're wiser and better and this is it like it's not just like well I guess this is it because it has to be like this is it because it can be and it should be and now's a great time for it and so your book is that that's sort of a

1:05:32current underneath the messaging and it's going to find like such a soft home with women in a similar place looking for encouragement well done can you yeah what are you telling people in terms of this is where you can buy it and this is where you can find out more and this is where they can follow you and all those important things sure you can go to zivyowans.com which is my sub-stack and also the between chapter sub-stack and everything else is at zivyowans.com and I'm on Instagram at zivyowans you can learn more about the company at zivymedia with our retreats and everything else but if you start with zivyowans you'll get where you need to go thank you so much Jen. Thank you. Congratulations I'm excited for you just cheering for you in every way. Thank you for every throughout that yet another resource we get to put in the hands of women there's there cannot be too many. I just cannot be too many like I love the collective volume of our voice

1:06:34yes in this mid-life space and I'm really proud to be a part of it and proud to know you too so thank you for being on today I'm so happy to see you. Oh my gosh so happy to see you so honored and such a fan of you and awake and everything you do thank you. All right you guys thanks for being here today I'm so happy that you are and love bringing you guests that I know that you will love and that you'll start following and they're going to introduce you to a whole new world that you didn't know existed before that is such a thrill of a podcaster to bring you to people and thinkers and leaders and writers that are going to make an impact on your life not just from the episode that you hear on my show but putting yourself under

1:07:36their leadership or becoming a follower and a reader and a listener of theirs I love that over at jinnhatmaker.com under the podcast tab I'm going to have this whole show and all the notes I'll have links to everything Zibi mentioned she's got lots of slivers of the pie chart but I'll make sure you have links to all of her work and spaces and books and then you can leave me a voicemail over there if you'd like to there's a send voicemail button and you can tell me anything you want to tell me about today's episode about any episode about anything you want to say we listen to all of those and those will often become listener submitted episodes and we may play your message on the show and I will answer whatever it is that you said so thanks for being here you guys this is a great month of conversations we're having if you haven't already subscribed that'll probably take you three seconds wherever you listen to podcasts just hit follow

1:08:42or plus or add or subscribe and that's it for the level show up in your podcast library and I'm delighted to be a part of it you guys thank you for being here and I'll see you next week