When Sports Storytelling Changes the Game | In the Game

0:00Atmosphere TV is the largest streaming TV platform, purpose-built for shared social spaces, like bars, restaurants, gyms, and airports. Atmosphere TV is the creator of CHI TV, and over 30 mesmerizing audio-optional channels that entertain over 150 million monthly viewers. Built for business made for fun. Atmosphere TV. Welcome, everyone, to In The Game, and you're Marked to Sports Marketing Podcast, made possible by Atmosphere TV. This is a conversation about the mic-top era. How behind the scenes, docky series like Drive to Survival, quarterback, act as the ultimate top of the final marketing tool to convert casual viewers into obsessed fans. Hello folks, I'm Markus, and today I'm alongside, senior analysts living in Westchester, Mr. Ross Benish. Hey, Marcus. Hello, fellow, and senior forecasting analyst, living out in Utah, Mr. Zat Goldner.

1:01Hello, hello. Hello. Today we're talking all about Gents, when sports became entertainment. Sports used to be something you watched now increasingly. And, you know, when you were in the middle of the night, you were in the middle of the night, and you were in the middle of the night, and you watched now increasingly. It's a world that you can get immersed in, or there are worlds that you get immersed in, from Drive to Survive, and welcome to Rexham. It's a hard knocks, and he did rivalry, storytelling is turning athletes' rivalries and entire leagues into entertainment franchises, and bringing new fans into the fold along the way. But what actually turns a casual viewer into an obsessed fan, and who owns that relationship when the story exists everywhere, from Netflix to TikTok. Today we're asking whether all the and silvery content makes the game as themselves more valuable, or not, which sports are still leaving this opportunity on the table, and what happens when a sport becomes an entertainment IP machine. So, Russell, start with you.

2:02Shows like Drive to Survive, as we mentioned, Hard Knocks, Welcome to Rexham, Court About, Qt. Rivalry. They've all made audiences care about sports. They may not have previously followed. What do you think is the, or are the secret ingredients? Well, those shows are all quite different. You have dramas in there, as well as docky series. But what they all tend to give you is a aspect of the sport that you don't see just from watching it. Now, he did rivalry, obviously, that's, you know, not based on like a real person. So, that's a little bit different than Hard Knocks, which is following an NFL mini-camp of actual athletes. But they show like behind the scenes, and in a more intimate way, then you tend to get otherwise. And I think fans have always wanted that. And now you're getting more like locker room or access to even some of these people's lives where you start to see athletes act like creators. Yeah, access is a good word.

3:04And you do start to feel the sense of intimacy. You start to get, develop a stake in what's happening. How about for you, Zach? What are the ingredients? Yeah, access was going to be what I was going to talk about here. It's a secret sauce. I think it's a great entryway into a sport that I actually understanding the sport first. Instead, I think the easiest way to get someone to care about a sport isn't to sell them the sport itself, but to sell them the people that are doing the sport. So, drive to the survive, I think, is one of the best examples of that. Yeah. If you were to an end to an F1 race, not knowing anything about Formula One, you're just watching 20 cars drive around in a circle for a while. But if you're watching the show, then you're understanding the characters, the rivalries, the strategy, and suddenly the race is meaning something to you. So you don't have to be an F1 expert at first, but the show is kind of helping you do the onboarding itself. Yeah.

4:04The second piece to this, which I think is really important today's age, is that we're living currently in a reality TV era. People love getting access to worlds that they can't normally see. We want to know what's like to be a real housewife, maybe some of us do. An NFL quarterback, an F1 driver, or being an owner of a professional team. I think that's what really combines all of us and our cultural desires is to be someone or somewhere that we're not supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really this difference between selling the sport, Zach, kind of what you were saying earlier, versus selling a story. And I think it shows, like, welcome to Rex, like, heated rivalry of the given audiences a reason to care. Before, Zach, to your point, they even understand the rules, the standings, how the game works. You're getting introduced, Rostro, you were saying, to characters, to relationships, to success,

5:06failure, rivalries, identity, to a certain extent. And the sport is just the forum where all of that happens. Marcus, one other point on that. You have, currently, roughly half of Americans who have in either high school or college, partake in some type of organizer compared to sport. However, it is just three and 10 million Americans who are currently professional athletes. So I think this kind of gives them the ability to kind of step into that seat of wood, what is like to be one of those professional athletes, what it's like, and you're seeing how some prepares and what happens after the game to pressure a bit. And you know that there's somewhere a 38-year-old saying I was couch thinking, you know, if a one for that elbow, sophomore year, like this could have been me. Yeah. And it's not going to be him, it's not going to be me, but let's us both dream. There's a lot of Uncle Rico's out there. So, Rost, does this, in your opinion, and silly content ultimately make their live broadcast

6:13more valuable because viewers now have an emotional stake in the people competing? Or perhaps the other side of that makes it less people care less about the actual games themselves? I'd say it's flat to more depending on the league in the series, but I don't see why any of this stuff would make the live broadcast less valuable because you're not really cannibalizing the live broadcast. Like no one's like going to put on hard knocks and go, well, did the bills win Sunday? I'm going to watch a documentary about it three weeks later to find out if they won that game. Or in the case of like quarterback, like that, that's going to come out nine months after that game aired. And same with those races in F1, like you're not watching that to find the results out particularly. You probably already know the results if you're a fan of it. And then if you're not a fan of you coming in, then that's just additive audience. So, and I think some of these series don't add a ton of their sport, but some of them do, and there isn't really a whole lot of drawback on doing it, as long as you find willing participants able to do it.

7:17I know with quarterback, they had some troubles. That's why they made the show receiver, because it's pretty taxing to ask people to volunteer to do. That's interesting. Yeah. Then they went back to it. I think they dropped their standards a little bit. You know, they had like my homes in the first season. Not all quarterbacks of that level want to deal with this stuff. Yeah. Is that you agree? It's making it's going to make the broadcast more valuable, not less? Yeah. To me, it's much more complimentary experience, rather than cannibalistic. If I were to see someone watching quarterback during a live NFL game, or drive to survive while the Monco Grand Prix is going on, I think that person's crazy. What would he be doing watching that during the time of the live game? Yeah. So, I don't see that taking away from that experience, but if anything, from a league's perspective, it's just giving more entry points into the sport. Not everyone is going to start their fandom from buying expensive cable package to sit down to watch a three hour game, but maybe they start the Netflix series.

8:17Maybe they see a TikTok video, something on YouTube, and it's giving them much more access to getting into the sport. And then from there on, maybe they do decide to buy a cable package, or maybe they decide to buy a peacock. Things about nature. So, I'll present the argument that agrees with the audience. With what you guys are saying. And then I'll pose a question to offer the counter. So, there was a bump. A heated rivalry, the heated rivalry gave the NHL. So, more people started watching hockey. The first stretch of nationally televised games on ABC, ESPN, and TNT. Following the 2026 Winter Olympics averaged over 600,000 viewers. That marks a 23% increase over pre-Limpyc numbers. The analyst directly attribute to the heated rivalry spill over. That came out just a few months before the games. Weekly ticket sales, NHL ticket sales jumped over 20%, almost immediately after the show premiered.

9:17First time in solo fan ticket sales spiked by 13% according to ticket retailer, SeatGeek. And the NHL commissioner as well, Gary Bettman, said he binge the whole show after seeing the surgeon numbers later creating the series for introducing a whole new group of people to the sport. My question I guess is, you may not see people watching them side by side, but is this more of a longer term issue? In that, the new wave of fans that you're ushering into the game aren't the same fervent dedicated fans who just want to watch the sport, but they're more casual individuals. What happens when the sport becomes entertainment IP and lives across DocuSeries, podcasts, YouTube, social clips, Netflix, TikTok, creator content? Are you Zach diluting the fan too much in able to get access to more of them? Sure, you could definitely say that, but I think that at the end of the day,

10:18these leagues want to see their viewer numbers increase. When it's all said and done and all these podcasts are out there, I don't think you're going to see the hardcore fan really turn away from sport. Yeah, Ross. In the case of NHL, they could use more casual fans. They have like their strong, really fervent fan base, but it's not a ton of people. And most people in the US, not as much in Canada, but especially in the US, don't follow hockey that much. Even if it's just casual followers, that's a plus for the NHL. But what these series, you know, it's interesting Gary Bettman had that comment and that probably also speaks to like where the NHL is right now. Because the NFL actually had a complete opposite reaction about 20 years ago when the show Playmakers was on ESPN, and it showed some controversial stuff that pro football player in a fictionalized setting, that pro football players go through. And they had ES, the NFL had ESPN killed that show off,

11:19despite having good ratings. Now, the NFL is a bohemian who doesn't really need a whole lot more casual viewers. But if you portray the shield negatively, the NFL will try to bury you under a volcano, whereas the NHL, you know, they're all for a show being popular. That's about hockey, even if it's not exactly what you would see on a broadcast. Yeah. I want to bring up one other point here with the NFL on casual viewers. I think one of the biggest storylines that we saw in the last few years has been none other, but T-Swift and Travis Kelsey. Yeah. You've had hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of fans who are just tuning in to go see a rare glimpse of Taylor Swift, and sure that is in its own series. Yeah. Is bringing a lot more viewers, a lot more ad dollars to those games in particular. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great example of how entertainment and sports have collided those two worlds. Zach, what makes someone cross the line from casual viewer into obsessed fan?

12:24Could be you being subjected to the sport as a kid, years of torment and suffering, interupted by only brief limpses of hope that are inevitably crushed? Is that just me as a Bears fan? I was going to say it's a jazz fan, but yeah, bears too. It's a tough life. Some weird, different fandoms. But I do think there is something behind that. The line between casually watching a sport and becoming obsessed with it is when something that you watch starts actually becoming part of your identity. It can be from you, I inheriting it from your parents. It could be you playing the sport growing up, or it could just be you tuning into one and travel game that makes you really invested moving down the line. I also think that community is a huge part of it as well. If you live in a big sports town, you know that the energy in the city is either up or down, depending on what happened the prior day. I think that all those kind of factors being able to talk about it to your friends and co-workers,

13:25all those aspects of you don't want to miss out. So that can turn you into a casual to a super fan. Yeah. Ross, I was looking at some of the numbers for the F1 and viewership in the US and drive to survive definitely resulted in a spike after it came out. But there was a bit of a dip in the following couple of years, I think, 2022. It's spike, 23 and 24 is down a bit. I think it went back up in 2025. So the question becomes how do you turn that casual viewer, someone who's just getting into the series into an obsessed fan? Maybe you don't need to, perhaps you don't need to, but what do you think could make someone crossover from casual to obsessed? Well, yeah, in many cases, I just don't think you're able to. If someone's really into that show because they were looking for a TV show on Netflix to get into and they found it very interesting, that doesn't necessarily mean they want to sit there for a multiple hour race consistently. And the same would go for quarterback, you know, like not everyone's going to want to sit through a bunch of NFL games.

14:31But to Zach's point, I think the biggest thing that turns people into obsessed fans is who is into this thing in their lives already. So like if your, if your family is really into a particular team or sport, you know, chances are you follow that, even if you're not the biggest fan, it's something that you grew up with and that you consume and that you can talk about with people. If you have friends that are really into a particular team or sport, it's easier to get into it. So if, you know, you're a casual fan and then suddenly you're watching F1 drive your survive and you try to get into the races, but you don't really know anyone in your personal life who's into F1, I think that's a tough sell. But if you find people who are into that, that makes it a lot easier. And of course you can find those people online if they're not in your, you know, immediate circle. But if they're not already there, that's more of an uphill battle. Yeah. Who owns, who owns the fan relationship now?

15:33I'll give you a few options here. So the league, the team, the broadcaster, the streaming platform, or the athletes, Zach, who do you think owns the fan relationship? Select all that apply. I think that's the tough one. Another day where I would go is that people are always thinking, oh, it's the broadcasters are the ones that are having you watch each and every game. But I think when you look at it, it is you're not tuning into a game because of the individual play by play commentator. Even though Fox is paying Tom Brady $37.5 million a year, that's not the reason why I'm tuning into it. I did more, more of the reason why I watch it is either the league itself, or the team and the content around that team. Yeah. And I'll talk more about the content around the team where I do think that team's social media presence is what is doing this enslavery content.

16:34Where if you're a bills fan, you're watching all their Gen Z brain rod pieces of content that's helping you relate to each and every one of these players that there's a different side to them other than them wanting to kill the person on the other side of the line. But I think that that kind of humanizes the sport is that is what who is owning who's owning it these days. Yeah. I do. Tom Brady is good, though, isn't he? I mean, not just as a player, but as a commentator, I do like him. When he's on the broadcast, I am happy to see him there. He is a proof, but have you ever tuned into a game because of him? I can say I've tuned it out of the game because of the announcement. Not because of no, but I'm happy to see him when he's there. It's a good point. Ross, how about you, which who do you think owns the fan relationship? Bears are increasingly owning it. The league also has a stake who's not owning it, though, is independent media. They have taken a hit like the family relationship, you know, for years has been built on journalism and websites that cover all this stuff.

17:42And now what you see is a sanitized product that is paid for and produced by the league that you're watching. So like I don't think you're going to get like a great documentary on a current NFL player that is gritty and shows you what the league doesn't want you to see. You're going to get something that the league has a hand in producing. And that's the same in music, too. Like I think of like the documentary that Netflix cowardly killed about Prince because his state didn't like it. You're just seeing more and more of that were these like really popular figures, whether they're celebrities or athletes are able to call their own shots and have media produced about them that is sanitized and fits the image they want to project and the stuff that is independently produced gets challenged or or killed off and doesn't have as much support. Like great sports journalism websites have died by the dozens in the last 10 years, but athlete and creator led productions about the NFL have proliferated. We just want to see what they want us to see.

18:43That's a great take. So you're saying like you're less likely to read a piece in like the LA times sports, the other straights is the. Yeah, the extra glean espionation isn't what it used to be like that spin as a zombie website that sort of stuff that used to be great is hardly there. But then like you know you get paint manning teaming up with the league to produce something that makes the league look really cool right. Right and I watch it, but like you know it's not completely reality. Yeah, that's a good point. I also think it's interesting this question of who's earned the rights to be the fans first destination. But how are they coming in? Is it that you have a streaming service is like because a lot of the times now when I'm on the streaming services I have they say oh click this to get access to the game. I'm like oh I didn't realize the games were also shown here. Is it the athlete that's increasingly becoming the place where people are again entry to to the sports. Is it is it the team? Is it the broadcaster? So yeah, where are they? Where are they? What's the gateway into the.

19:45They are the all our gateways and you know it depends on what the particular fan is consuming at that moment. I think you could find examples of people who came through each of those entry points that you mentioned. And with this so we talked about some of the sports have been impacted by some of these dramas or docuseries things like formula one drive to survive or the NFL and quarterback. He did rivalry and hockey and at the NHL what sports. Zach I'll start with you what sports or leagues are currently under leveraging this opportunity and who could create a drive to survive style breakthrough that hasn't figured it out yet. Yeah, well I come from Utah as you might know I love skiing. So I think that skiing snowboarding can really easily fit in that category. Yeah, some people don't watch it but I do think that there's a bigger community around it than a lot of people might expect.

20:49If great personality is beautiful locations, crashes and people like doing some really cool stuff in there. And the thing is you are seeing the Olympics almost gatekeep the world's best skiers and people are only paying attention once every four years. But meanwhile the Kayla Schifrin outside the Olympics is winning 100 World Cups and people just aren't witnessing the story can't behind all of it. So I think that one area we can go towards and I think that'd be fun. That's a good way. Yeah, I should the short I watched the camera where the documentary was maybe ESPN but it was a show and white come back story. And then you went to the Olympics and won and that was yeah, that was incredible. Beside the skiing I think this whole conversation just made me more interested in having more hard knock series. I know it with hard knocks it's one team every year like I want to watch the barriers every season I want to know how what is going to be behind it. Sure it might be a little bit repetitive but when you are wanting to get invested every year into who your preseason players are and like the roster around you.

21:57I don't care if I'm seeing too much of it as a sports fan I want to see my team every year I don't care about what's happening with the New York Jets. No one does not know if you live in New York you don't care about the Jets. Sorry dad, shots fired but he's right. That's really interesting take because you know the NBA game past league past wherever it's called where you can buy it and you get access to either your team or the season or the game's for the season or the whole league. You could also sell this product right you could sell access to the behind the scenes content for all the specific teams that's really good. Yeah that's a really good idea Ross what leagues under leveraging this opportunity in your opinion. I would say the big 10 in general but specifically college basketball and it's a tough thing to build a series around because there's so much roster turnover. Wait more than even a pro team like an entire roster can flip over due to transfer portal and weird rules about eligibility and who's going pro.

22:57But you know college basketball becomes such a phenomenon and March madness and for that month I think they could do something to catapult some like casual fans into being more moderate fans. Now it's kind of tough because Netflix has done a ton of docuseries where it's just like we follow a team for a year and that format gets a little old and you also want to make sure you're following a team that's going to be interesting and relevant. But when you look at how popular basketball college basketball is right there at that moment it's kind of strange they don't have much for documentaries about it. But the closest thing I would say is Netflix did last chance you and they had a few seasons whereas basketball but that was juco basketball it wasn't division one and that was a spin off of a series that was about football. And then they had a series where they followed SEC football for a year and apparently that wasn't successful enough that they brought it back this season. You know college basketball part of the things that make it so chaotic and hard to make a documentary about it would also make it an interesting documentary though if you follow those players lives and you see that.

24:06You got you know a guy who's playing like professionally in Turkey who gets recruited to come play and one part of the United States who then gets poached to go play in another part of the United States if you followed maybe a player or two and just go across. Here's this crazy journey that like this you know 21 year old man goes to within 18 months I think it'd be very interesting because a lot of people don't realize that these guys are playing around the globe really before they get to the NBA and college is just one part of their journey. Yeah. Yeah that's a really good one getting a window into the college athletes and what they're having to go to to prepare to try to make it into into the professional leagues and all the moving around that goes well. Yeah these are great ideas guys I had one for you I think the WNBA for a number of reasons there are a ton of emerging stars at the moment obviously Caitlin Clark is not is pretty straightforward choice there. There are a Libyan miles she's having in the same rookie season for the links page beckers angel Reese et cetera et cetera developing rivalries you got team rivalries the Las Vegas aces and New York Liberty.

25:18Just two teams are absolutely stacked with with stars going heads ahead so you got the individual player rivalry obviously of Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese bringing a college rivalry to the WNBA. And then some interesting story lines none you can argue bigger than what Asia Wilson is doing in the sport they could just follow her to be honest she became the first four time MVP last year and no one else has four she's on the brink of five she's leading the race this year she's the only NBA sorry she's the only player in WNBA history to win regular season MVP finals MVP defensive player for the year scoring title and it's a great thing to do. And the championship in the same season which she accomplished in 2025 she also became the first player to score over a thousand points in a season which happened in 2024 so I mean Asia Wilson alone could be a documentary well they made a woman's proboscopal documentary like that I would say follow in a player whether it's Wilson or otherwise yeah be more interesting than a team because what what I find so interesting is the WNBA season

26:28the WNBA season ends and then like they they got they go playing internationally or they play in on the rival that there's so much basketball that they're playing that isn't just the you know then obviously the international circuit whether there's a world like a world championship or Olympics involved I mean a one calendar year they could be putting on three different uniforms and yeah I mean I know you know that but I don't know if that's very obvious to all the people who make comments about the WNBA. Yeah it wasn't obvious to me until recently the season is roughly kind of April Mayish to around September October so it's pretty short and then and then what especially given that the salaries were so low and you couldn't live off you know barely live off the salary. Yeah it's a brilliant round of my share. Yes exactly and so you had to go overseas to play to make up some more money for the rest of the year but yeah you've got all these leagues now starting to emerge and players going here they're everywhere and it's yeah that'll be a fascinating part of the story the off season part of the story.

27:30Well that will do it. I hope to see everyone in the game next month thank you so much to Stuart who runs the team and Mike on the production today's episode of course thank you to Mike yes thank you to Ross. Thanks Marcus and to Zach thanks for having us on and everyone listening into in the game you market sports marketing podcast may possible by atmosphere TV Susie will be here tomorrow with the September retailer awards. you