"Trump's autocratic impulses on full display"

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1:00I really can't believe it because one of the rationals in the government's brief that they filed basically was that there shouldn't be a free press that journalists shouldn't be able to gather information about the government that the government doesn't want to see the light of day. They shouldn't be able to write critical stories. And it's really shocking that that's the position of the United States government. Hi again everyone, it's now 5 o'clock in New York. It has been a week of Donald Trump's worst most autocratic impulses on full display for the world to see as he attacks the very DNA of our democracy, the First Amendment, and tries to emulate his idols, the world's dictators. Yesterday, Donald Trump welcomed Chinese president Xi Jinping to the White House. And what appears to be a start of a parade of dictators after he announced that he also intends to host Vladimir Putin at the G20 summit at his Miami Resort later this year.

2:02While Trump fated a foreign dictator, one who has helped to prop up Trump's proclaimed number one enemy, Iran, the American press was out in the cold as some reporters, including one from our network, were not allowed into the White House to cover the event despite a court order restoring their access. As the New York Times reports, quote, the president of the United States barred American reporters because he labeled them a threat to national security while welcoming Chinese reporters who answer to the communist dictatorship in Beijing. Donald Trump's authoritarian approach to the press appears to be rubbing off on some members of his Republican party with Republican candidate for governor in Wisconsin, Tom Tiffany, taking a leave from Donald Trump's book and banning Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporters from a campaign event. In a week filled with alarming warning signs about the Trump administration and their allies willing this to attack the free press, our friend and colleague Rachel Meadow has a timely

3:02and brand new documentary out examining the vital work done by one group of journalists. Even as their lives are being threatened, it's called Killbury Print and it tells the story. We can listen to it. Sorry, it tells the story of a stunning threat to the freedom of the press that played out in Oklahoma. As a county sheriff, it went on a crusade against the local paper there. It's streaming on peacock this Sunday. Here's that clip. This very small town newspaper is going really hard against the sheriff which you don't see at rural newspapers in Oklahoma at least. Nobody goes against the powers that me and the area because I can make life very difficult for you. The administration under Kevin Clarity, maybe the most corrupt law enforcement agency I've witnessed in Oklahoma maybe period. It's the kind of place where if you make enemies with someone in the sheriff's office, you know, you probably shouldn't drive home at night.

4:03It's so powerful and so chilling. It's where we begin the hour with my very special guest, my friend and colleague, anchor the Rachel Meadow show producer of that doc, Rachel Meadow's here. This is so amazing. Thank you for watching it. Thank you for coming. How did you come to make it? So in 2023 when this story became public about this allegedly corrupt, allegedly drug adult local sheriff plotting to murder the family that owned the local paper that was reporting on his alleged corruption, we covered it on my show. I remember. It was a crazy story to report because this local paper, this local family owned paper in McCartan County, Oklahoma, such a small paper they didn't even have a website. So if you wanted to look up their reporting, you had to call them and have them mail you the physical paper or maybe send you a Google drive link or something. There was no website. So when they got an audio recording of the sheriff and other local officials talking about hiring hitmen to kill the local family that ran the paper and where they were going to

5:06be buried and the equipment they were going to use to dig the holes and bury their bodies after they were dead. And they had that on audio tape. They had to invent a way to let people know about it because they don't have a website. And so they made a QR code, published it on the front page of the print paper and then essentially set up kind of a drop box site where you could go and get the audio. We did that, reported on it in 2023 and then just stayed on the story and ultimately Ben Klein, who's an incredible documentary director, he did a documentary called The Exiles, which I just loved, said that he essentially wanted to relocate to the city. And he told the homeowner to go tell the story and we got people to talk to us that you can't believe talk to us. The story went off in amazing different directions. That sheriff stayed in office for a long time after he was exposed in those tapes, which is pretty insane. I mean, we think about people in the press being brave and taking risks. Well, when it's a tiny town and the sheriff is essentially the law in your town and he's the one you're taking on and you've taken him on and he's still the guy with the guns

6:08in the town. I mean, it was really serious stuff. That's an incredible story. It has an echo to me in the smate, tell you more than you want to know about my brain to the pardon of the insurrectionists, right? We're like, we're like, up as down and down as up, we're the bad guys stay in power. Yes. And the good guys are, while protected by the First Amendment, still at risk of the people in power. Yes. And it's also like that in the terms of the way we tell stories and the way we talk about heroism and morals and American values, which is if you do the right thing, ultimately, you win. That's the way we tell those stories. Correct. That's where every fable works, except sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, as you say, the bad guys stay in power and the good guys have done all of the right things and all they've done is pay for it. And we also need to be able to tell our stories, not about martyrdom, but about sticking with it and doing the right thing, even though it costs you a lot of the things that you

7:09most hold dear. And that is what a lot of Americans, particularly Americans in public surface and law enforcement, are dealing with right now. That is what a lot of people in the press are dealing with right now. That is what people who have fought authoritarianism all over the world have lived through all of these years. And now we are living through it in America. And it is worth understanding that kind of resilience and sacrifice as part of this story of what it means to be an American citizen, to live our values and to be a hero in this time. I thought of something that you and I have talked about it in different ways around different characters in these stories that we both try to tell about courage, that it isn't the absence of fear. It's doing the next right thing. I think Timothy Snyder writes about this. I think everyone we call on about this authoritarian moment in our country talks about it. What is your sort of kernel about what they were able to cover and do in their own town? And real protection. Like you can't imagine that they weren't afraid.

8:12Yes. And telling the truth about what was going on in that community didn't necessarily earn them a whole lot of fans in the community. Right. Because he was elected sheriff and he's from a very influential family in the town and lots of people supported him. Lots of people were mad at the paper for exposing things in that county that weren't necessarily going to be exposed. You were not living your values and rewarded for it. Which is the way we want these things to go. And so for me, it just feels very real. Like we're in a real moment. We have spent so much of the last 10 years talking about worst case scenarios and what's at the bottom of the hill from the slippery slope. And where things could go? Well, listen, we're living there. Like we are now a country that is on the side of China and Russia and not on the side of Canada and Ukraine. Like we're kind of on the bad guy side right now. Between authoritarians and democracy, our country is now on the authoritarian side.

9:14And so we need to get real about what that means to be a dissident in this time, what it means to be a patriot and in our line of work, what it means to be a journalist, what it means to stand up and tell the truth and to not just praise the First Amendment, but use it. One of the things that for me has been really interesting and sort of hurtening to be rolling out this documentary this week, it just on peacock this weekend, while we at MSNOW have been contending with what we've been tending with. Is number one to see Ted Butros take this case to court, not just for us, but for MSNOW, ANC and N and Politico, and to see him just wipe the floor with the government here. Yes, the judge had a powerful ruling, but you know what? Having great case brought by a freaking great lawyer with immediate results, that is really important. And to see solidarity among news organizations. Yes. Which matters. I mean, it matters in practical terms, but to me, I don't know how you feel about this, I feel like it matters in terms of how I think of the strength of the free press. Well, it's also for all of Trump's targeting of institutions, it's the first time the

10:19others who weren't targeted in the instance stood up for the ones who were. I mean, law firms didn't stand up for the ones that were targeted. They went in and capitulated one after the other after the other, even though the ones that objected to the EO prevailed in court. The universities didn't stick up for each other. They went in and did the best deals to restore their funding. And in both of those cases, there were efforts to do the opposite. Correct. There were more efforts to get all the laws, all law firms together. There were efforts by professors to get all the universities together, but the powers that be within those industries, within those institutions said, no, no, no, we're going to handle this appeasement on our own. And the people who tried to present a unified front were right and they got overruled in the moment. Yeah. Even though there's no example in human history of appeasement working. What do you, I think this is an important piece to lift up. And I've been accused by people close to me of sort of squinting really hard to find bright spots, but I think this is a real one. What do you think it's like, I mean, I had Laura Burrone on all week talking about what

11:20it was like to come up to New York and cover Trump by having access granted by New York City's mayor. And she was, you know, went into work and then wasn't allowed in with her. I mean, the actual sort of tumult really resonated in terms of being in a small town where law enforcement is against you. It's just happening in a much larger scale. I mean, what is your thought right now about the White House press corps that, you know, in a lot of instances they haven't had each other's backs. He's called journalists Piggy. And they kind of go into the next question. For some reason, this was like a line that they weren't willing to cross. Yeah. And I think it's well to tell you, I'm going to interview Laura about her experiences this week at our event in Texas this weekend, which I'm really looking forward to. She's a superstar. She's a superstar. I'm really looking forward to just having a chance to sit down live audience. I must now members and like talk about that. I'm looking forward to that. Well, just, yeah, because I've interviewed her live as a solvent happening. But this will be probably her first chance to sort of take you through the whole week, the whole seven days. I'm hoping so. See, that feels like another doc. Well, I would have on my face.

12:21I think too, I think there's a couple of things that are going on. One is, do you remember when your old boss George W. Bush said, rarely is the question asked, is our children learning? Yes. Right now. I'm having... And to his credit, he put it in the correspondence dinner comedy bit that year. Yes. And who among us is not in this program? I understand how I understand. But I have been thinking this week. I said to Susan, we first started talking about this. When we first heard that, first of all, the case was going to be all three networks and that the pool was shutting itself down in solidarity with CNN. I turned to Susan and I said, rarely is the question asked, is our institutions learning? I think we are starting to learn. Yeah. You do not take these things on one at a time. You do not bear the brunt to this yourself. You look to your colleagues. And if you're lucky enough to not be the one single doubt this time, don't take comfort in that, but join with the ones who are... I have been targeted. I think that we... It is an iterative process. We are learning what it means to stand up to an authoritarian government and it is we

13:23are being slow about it, but we're learning. And I think, you know, if he started the university thing or the law firms thing now, I like to think that the universities and the law firms would have learned their lesson by now too, about showing a united front and not appeasing. So that's part of what's going on. I also think that he's in a profoundly weak position right now. And it feels stupid to capitulate to somebody who is a pro- 29% of the legal ratings are where I'm talking to our tone-elf on this. Right. Is, you know what I mean? He's less popular than... Well, I don't even want to say it. But that matters. His political power is at a low... He's humiliating his own party. He's humiliating his own mega infrastructure even in terms of the way that he's spending money. I mean, his campaign travel plans are to go to Alabama and Oklahoma when he's a Republican president. I mean, why would anybody power before a political force that feeble? So then why were all the tech executives at the White House last night?

14:24Because the tech executives apparently want it to be a dictatorship because they like the idea of oligarchy. I mean, much like the oil and gas industry prefers compliant, corrupt, ruling families who don't turn over so they can do their counter-projects. In any country in the world, I think the tech industry has decided that their post- government and that they would prefer corrupt, compliant, ruling families that don't turn over, that allow them to run an oligarchy of their own. And they're enjoying it. They're enjoying their ultra-wealth and they're enjoying this post-democratic moment. And the people are not with them, but they think they don't need the people and I think they're going to find out. I have spent an inordinate amount of time for the last nine years noodling this question of like if we ignore him does he go away? Like I think he's not like a normal politician that's doing stuff he cares about. He really is just watching the reflection of the stuff that he pretends to care about on television. And it's clear in his attack on MSNOW and CNN for not caring the Chinese state dinner

15:28last night. He says, you know, it was produced for television. Like he's telling us that everything he does is for us. Yeah. What does that mean for us? I think this is a big black box because I don't know. I think it's, I mean, what do you think about the whole Trump TV thing? So he's launched this. There's a White House TV service now. Yeah. I said that he should have called it real Trump because then it could just be RT. I was right. It would be like just like make it easier to find. Call it Sputnik, right? Yeah. Yeah. I, what, what do you think about that? Well, look, I, the day that that was announced, we had some reels from North Korean state TV and Russian state TV. And I think that is in substance and intention, what it is. What, what alarms me is back to your last point about the tech bros. I'm sure they'll support it. They'll support it. They'll support it. They'll support it. They'll support it. That's right. And so while it is a mockery and sort of the court of public opinion, it is not journalistic at all. But I do think that it'll find some algorithmic home because of the support from the tech

16:29bros. And so what's interesting is that, I mean, this is a, this war on us, this, this current war on the press was launched by them. So much like the war in Iran, it was a war of their own choosing, which meant it was a war of their own timing, but they did apparently no preparation for it. And they tried to launch this Trump TV thing in response to the pool shutting itself down in solidarity with CNN and all that stuff. But if you've watched the Trump TV thing at all and many of our viewers may not have, I can tell you, it's basically like watching the CCTV at a bow-dum-dum. They get ATL. Like it's, there's no, it's just random clips that a lot, anything that's live or close to live, there's no sound. Like there's no explanation of what's going on. There's no, they're not, it's not even chronologically contiguous. Like sometimes it's not live stuff, it's old stuff. And sometimes it's current stuff. I mean, it is, it's like, it's like tapping into a security camera at your grandma's house. Like what's happening here? And I can't imagine he looks good. No, no, no, no he doesn't. And I mean, does he look good on TV?

17:30I don't know, eyes and eye that beholder. But the question is, does, you know, do the, you know, Larry Ellison's and, you know, and Tim Cook's and Elon Musk's and all the other compliant billionaires of the tech world Russian and help him produce a slicker version of Provda, you know, of state TV for our authoritarian leader. It's to impress his dictator friends with. Maybe. I mean, what haven't they been willing to do? I mean, what? Nothing. What, how long after Donald Trump asked Mark Zuckerberg for that, do you think Zuckerberg would have to think about it before he ultimately said yes? Yeah, not very long at all. Let me ask you what you're feeling about the midterms. I have been thinking about the challenge to us in the press about the midterms. And I'm interested, I don't, you may not feel this way. I mean, structurally, one of the things that we learned in 2020 and one of the things that we've been telling ourselves about our electoral system is that because our electoral

18:33system is so diffuse, the authority is so delegated down. It makes it hard for somebody at the top to dictate an electoral result. And that is definitely true in the presidential race, all the more true in a midterm election where it's all individual and some statewide races. That said, if you look at it from the other way around, it kind of turn the telescope around, look through the other side. If you have seated local elections authorities all over the country and from the county level, precinct level to county level to the state level, with people who have bought into the cargo cult about elections, not counting, and who really came to the notice of the Reloq Republican Party because they were at January 6th. They did something else to heed Trump's wishes with throwing out the election results in 2020. If you've got corrupt and activist-minded local officials involved in the election infrastructure at the low levels, there doesn't need to be any top down instruction.

19:35And so are we capable as a national media and as our heroic local media all over the country capable of making sure that we're covering it accurately and with context and loudly in every county in North Carolina and in every precinct in Georgia and everywhere in Alaska and everywhere else where we've got these election deniers seated through the system. It's not going to be a Washington story. It is going to be a story in a county commissioners meeting room on a Wednesday at three in the morning in a place where we don't have a bureau. And it's going to be a real challenge. It's going to be a real challenge for the free press and for the citizens of this country. Are you seeing in the country a anti-Orban like change in the people who are participating or might participate? Like there's the theory that the turnout could be so undeniable that even the malevolent actors seated won't have a good hand to play.

20:40I think that's still to be decided. I mean, we're less than 50 days out, but it's November. November 3rd is the last day on which you can vote. Last people cannot vote before then. And I think there'll be a lot of different factors that go into whether or not people turn out to vote. And I think one of them is whether or not people think their vote is going to be counted as it was cast. I mean, the seeding of distrust in our election hits everybody. Hopefully as we see them maneuvering to try to manipulate or reject election results all over the country. That has an effect on whether or not it's everybody's individual rational risk reward balance in terms of whether or not it makes sense for me to go take time off work, get daycare, do whatever I need to do. Risk standing in a long line. Risk dealing with crazies at the polling places, all these things. That balance, that ratio challenges if you're not confident about your vote mattering. And so again, it's a challenge to us in the media to make sure that we cover the hell

21:42out of this thing everywhere it is. And it's challenged us as citizens to make sure that we use our democracy to stand up for our democracy. We use democratic means to stand up for this democracy. There's not going to be a civil war in this country. This is not going to be decided by violence. This is not going to be decided by guys with teaky torches and clubs. This is going to be decided by the American people through democratic means. And that is how we will save our democracy. And I have many places to go. I'm so happy we were along the way. And I cannot wait to watch you interview Laura Brown Lopez. What a week for both of you. It's been incredible. Your coverage has been phenomenal. I felt thank you. Thank you so much for being here and congrats on the doc. Thank you. So I'm winning an award, another award. The David Car award. The award for David Car award. In nonfiction filmmaking at the Montclair Film Festival, Kill Berry Print premieres this Sunday, September 27th. You can stream it exclusively on peacock. Coming up for us, how the Trump Justice Department, so-called Grand Conspiracy Case against Donald Trump may have just gone up in smoke. What lawyers for the FBI agents deemed crucial to the case are saying about what those agents

22:44will testify to. We'll bring that reporting next. Also, head. The scramble by doctors in Pennsylvania as a widespread measles outbreak there threatens to spiral out of control. Even the federal government continues to dismiss the rising death toll. Brand new reporting from the heart of the outbreak later in the hour. Deadland White House continues after quick break. Don't go anywhere. You're so-called Honda dealers are honored to help the community. Our program started the first deaf and hard of hearing football team of its kind in our league. The helpful So-Cal Honda dealers surprised us with brand new uniforms giving our athletes more than just jerseys a community investing in their program. And we want to help you too with 1.99% APR on a 2026 Rigeline for well-qualified buyers at your So-Cal Honda dealers. The late-throw contract limited must finance the Honda financial services not all buyers will qualify to take delivery by 1126. 3 o'clock, kids are home. Your to-do list isn't done.

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24:46new evidence that former president Barack Obama and top aides in the Obama administration conspired to subvert President Trump's 2016 election victory and undermine the democratic will of the American people. The new evidence released by the director of National Intelligence who is here with me today confirms that the Obama administration manufactured politicized intelligence which was later used as a justification for baseless smears against President Trump and an effort to try to delegitimize his victory before he even took the oath of office. If any of that was true, you would know by now. So she doesn't work there anymore. That was then White House press secretary Caroline Levit talking about she doesn't work there anymore Tulsi Gabbard about Trump's wacky fantasy fetish, really. That is now shaping the Justice Department's hunt for the white whale. This hallmark retribution case against Trump's imagined political enemies were in the government

25:52in 2015 and 2016. The sprawling and far-fetched so-called grain conspiracy case is based on what Caroline Levit who no longer works there just said. That weird theory that former intelligence and law enforcement officers and agents got in a room and hatched a plan to undermine Donald Trump. Keep it secret and then he gets elected. That was the plot, I guess. An investigation into Russia's 2016 attack on our election and whether as director Brennan has said, Russia, willingly or unwittingly, used people inside Trump's campaign. It goes through special counsel Jack Smith's two indictments of Donald Trump as well. But now this delusion of Trump's is running headlong into reality. The reality, of course, being that there is nothing to any of it. Justice Department has long signaled that it believed or hoped the star witnesses in the Grand Conspiracy delusions would be former FBI agents who worked on the search for classified

26:58documents at Mar-a-Lago. Those sharing Trump's delusions hope that those FBI agents would provide evidence that the search was somehow improper or illegal. But that's all falling apart spectacularly. Some of the agents all of whom had been purged from the FBI, they've all been fired. There was a peanut earlier this week to provide testimony to a grand jury. But according to New Reporting in the New York Times, their lawyers said this, quote, clients will each detail their first-hand memories of investigating a properly predicated allegation that then citizen Donald Trump had unlawfully retained hundreds of highly classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago residence. The lawyers' ag quote, this recollection would also include the clients factually supported opinions on why and how such retention put the country's national security at risk. Those claims were made in a filing to the judge overseeing the case, and another, an alien cannon. The lawyers for the FBI agents asked her to clarify whether the FBI agents were even allowed

28:00to discuss the details of the classified documents investigation because Judge Aileen Cannon had issued an order barring discussion of non-public information about the case to people outside DOJ. I want to bring into our coverage former Assistant Special Agent in charge of the FBI, National Security and Intelligence Analyst Michael Feinberg with me at the table, Constitutional Law Scholar, author of Who Decides, Who Decides on Substack, James Samples back with us. Michael Feinberg, I don't even know where to begin, but I do think it's important to remind people how crazy the grand conspiracy investigation is. And that's why I played Caroline Levin talking about something Tulsi Gabbard was working on, neither them work there anymore, and neither does Joe DeGeneva, who was the US Attorney working on this. What is the development about the FBI agents communicated on the part of their lawyer mean? So, this is actually quite a brilliant motion, I think, because it puts Aileen Cannon in

29:04a trick box of having to overrule a very species untethered from the law decision she made at the close of Jack Smith's investigation, where she said nobody can receive or talk about non-public information, or she can uphold her original ruling and put the Justice Department, Trump's Justice Department, in the position where it has no witnesses to actually move its case forward. Those are the only two options for her. And if she is going to show field tea to Trump the way she has throughout this entire investigation that Jack Smith was running, she's going to need to let DOJ question those witnesses in front of a grand jury. But, it is well-established law, as James Olson knows, that a witness who talks to a grand jury is allowed to talk about their testimony in public.

30:05So DOJ is in the position they can push forward, encourage Judge Cannon to overrule her earlier order, but know that all of the sudden all these scores of FBI agents are going to be talking to a grand jury and in public about the various and manifold ways Donald Trump broke the law in retaining classified information to which he was not entitled, or DOJ, if it doesn't want to humiliate Ileane Cannon, can oppose the motion to clarify but lose all of its witnesses. There's no good option here for the government, and that's reflective of just how insane unplanned and unstrategic this whole grand conspiracy prosecution is in the first place. Let me show you what Jim Comey had to say when I said, are you going to get basically invited in this one too?

31:07Do you think you will be investigated as part of their grand conspiracy investigation out of Florida? It's hard to say that is really redstring on the basement crazy wall stuff, and so it's hard to assess from a distance. I got it, they found an 81 year old guy Joe, the DeGenernava to come back to government for the first time since Durand Durand was on the choice and lead an investigation. Again, they're trying to find people who will do that which principled people will not do. So real dividing line on this one, I mean no one of integrity is a part of this, even Joe DeGenernava quit, and their witnesses all have a pretty double edged dynamic to what they could say. I think that's absolutely right. And I actually think Michael's point that he made, that Eileen Cannon has in many respects created the problem that Eileen Cannon now faces is a brilliant, brilliant point by Michael. Just to simplify what this really is right now, because there are some people in this

32:11process who I think have done the right thing, and they are the ones who are now being victimized. You talked in the last segment with Rachel about the upside down and the fables that when you do the right thing, you will eventually be rewarded. And maybe that's true in some cosmic sense, or maybe it's true in some medium term sense. But in the short term, let's be clear about what is really happening here. Agents for the FBI who engaged in a lawful search for classified documents at Mar-a-Lago after there had been a defiance of a subpoena to return those classified documents, they would testify that they engaged, they filed a, their brief today filed with Eileen Cannon says they would testify that the search was proper, that the search was properly conducted, that there was proper foundation, that they were fired for doing it, and that they are now faced with a choice. Either they testify truthfully before the grand jury, in which case they end up facing a contempt of Eileen Cannon's court order, or they don't testify truthfully, or maybe

33:14they take the Fifth Amendment at which point there's a reputational cost. So here are the people in this process who have done the right thing. And Nicole, it really strikes me the degree to which national security is being invoked at every single turn by this administration. One week ago, your network and two other journalists in the organizations were barred from the White House. Two days ago, the administration argued that national security was the reason. You know what's a threat to national security? Classified documents sitting out in the open at Mar-a-Lago. Von Hill, you're going to the White House and asking tough questions. That is not a threat to national security. That's actually what makes America great. This is crazy. It's crazy, but there's more. We have to sneak in a quick break. We'll all be back on the other side. We're back with Michael and James. So Michael, let me just come back to something that has been in the news. And David Corn has a new book out. And that is a story we sort of chunk up and tell in different ways.

34:16But the Mueller probe is that it's core a national security question, at least volume one. Right? It's about whether Russia and adversary and one of the two political parties in our country had an allied aim, electing Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton. And Mueller finds that they did, right? Fast forward, Trump successfully smears any investigative journalism into what Russia did to America as the Russia hoax. And Don Jr., and his wife, Bettina, describe an oligarch in good standing as a, quote, dear friend when he rents out an island for their wedding. Who is guarding American national security from China, from Russia? And why doesn't the Republican Party pretend to care? Well, I'm going to answer the first question last, or the last question first, my apologies. The Republican Party doesn't care because I don't think the Republican Party exists.

35:18And it used to be an organization that some people agreed with. Some people disagreed with. I think you and I both had our first political homes there, but it was united by principles and beliefs that transcended individual politicians. The Republican Party, and as much as it exists now, is simply a sock puppet for a personalist ideology. If Donald Trump decided that he was going to become a Marxist tonight, I can guarantee you that Josh Hawley would be quoting Dock Hapital or the previous one, I still on the Senate for the March. Like, that true. And Cruz would be reading from main currents of Marxism during his next filibuster. But unfortunately, like, to answer your larger question, there's nobody minding the store any before Trump came on the scene before he entered into office.

36:23Before the 2016 election, Russia and China were competitors, but we were ahead of them. We had a more effective military, we had a more effective intelligence apparatus. We had more good will in the world. We had more soft power. We had more alliances. There was no scenario where they could go ahead to head with us militarily, economically, what have you, where we wouldn't in the long run in the end come out on top. Fast forward ten years. China and Russia are not competitors. At best for America, they are peers. In reality, they're probably ahead of us. Think of all the nations that we would need on our side if a conflict with China occurred. And think about how we have alienated them through tariffs, through insults, through rounding

37:24up their citizens and immigration rates. Like who is going to stick their neck out to help us? In Australia, that can't believe we've forgotten this. Trump hung up on the Prime Minister of Australia the first time they ever talked and then told people that it was the worst phone call he ever had. This is a nation that has given us property in its own country to host a Marine Corps base in the Pacific. Our president is somebody who doesn't understand, doesn't care about and will never account for nationals. I ask that question because I think there's a false sense of security in leaving US national security in the hands of the legal system. It's not for that. It is not for a criminal investigation to protect America from Russia because we're not sure

38:25that the President of the United States will. And I guess my legal question is how much of this, we describe this sort of box that Aileen Cannon is in. And I'm close and I'm not a lawyer, but I get to play one sort of on TV by being around you guys. I mean, what's interesting to me is that there's a legal quagmire for the Justice Department, but what's tragic to me as an American and an ex-Republican is that the real loser is the country. Because the country doesn't get to find out one, what national defense information was absconded to, whether any of the people that provided that national defense information were burned as sources or assets or allies. And three, it's all ongoing. I mean, it's almost a butt of a joke late night had a field day with it as they should, but Donald Trump, Jr., the president, son and Eric Trump is there too, were on an island bought for by a Russian oligarch and no one is doing anything about it. It's hard to believe.

39:25I mean, I think that story is maybe the metaphor, the anecdotal metaphor that crystallizes so many other stories. But with respect to that year point, Nicole, about the legal system and national security. You know, Michael and I might differ slightly on this particular citation, but it is worth remembering that the Pentagon Papers case, 1971, involved in essence a balance between national security and the free press and the First Amendment. And it was a close call because we were talking about actual classified documents. You were talking about wartime, you were talking about things that actually could pose a significant threat to Americans who were serving abroad. And yet the First Amendment prevailed in court. Narrowly. Now the administration is invoking national security for basically everything from a ballroom to an arch to banning the press. I mean, on down the list. And so the judicial system has long deferred to the executive properly so on matters of

40:30national security. But when the executive department reaches out and waves that talisman at every single turn, there's a never-quai wolf dynamic. And at a certain point, you have to reject that because you're right that the national security is ultimately in the hands of the people. Michael, fine routine, Sambo. Thank you both for joining me today and going big picture on these stories. I appreciate both of you. When we come back, the all-out race to contain a massive measles outbreak in our country, how doctors in Pennsylvania are fighting to save lives right now in the face of a federal government that continues to dismiss and even demonize vaccines will have the new reporting next. 3 o'clock, kids are home. Your to-do list isn't done. New craft mac and cheese power mac was made for days like this. Craft mac and cheese power mac packs the same irresistible creamy, cheesy flavor you love. Now with 17 grams of protein and 6 grams of fiber.

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42:31Serious allergic reactions and severe eczema-like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-Cocintics. This episode is brought to you by O'Pill, the first ever over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S. O'Pill is a daily birth control pill that's FDA approved, full prescription strength and estrogen-free. Plus there's no prescription needed. Finally, the days of needing a prescription for birth control are over. Take control of your health and your reproductive journey. Find O'Pill online and at most major retailers. Doctors in Pennsylvania find themselves on the front lines of an unprecedented circumstance fighting a deadly massive measles outbreak by dealing with a completely anti-science response from the Trump administration. In just the last month, Pennsylvania has reported four measles associated deaths, a teenager, a 40-year-old and two infants have died.

43:32All of them were unvaccinated. The last time the country reported four measles deaths was in the year 1992. At the Trump administration still refuses to include three of those deaths in their measles death toll and they're still casting doubt on the measles vaccine. Our friend Dr. Vingupta spoke with first responders in a largely unvaccinated Amish community at the center of the outbreak. Outbreak is truly unprecedented. And we are getting so many calls from concerned members of the community with very good questions about measles and symptoms and about the vaccination. I've seen patients who, even though they've been lucky, they've been fortunate that they've survived, they're probably never going to be the same again. It changes everything for them overnight. For the healthcare personnel, it's also very difficult to wrap your head around.

44:34I want to bring in Dark Hverage, our medical contributor Dr. Vingupta. He's a pulmonologist and global health policy expert. Dr. Gupta, how do you die of measles? You know Nicole, we heard these stories on the ground in Pennsylvania. Dr. Martin, the infectious disease doctor, Geysinger, has seen, you know, they've seen upwards of 90 cases and the folks that end up in the ICU have pneumonia. They have inflammation of the brain tissue and cephalitis. And these are complications of measles. It causes something called immune amnesia, where essentially you're more susceptible to another infection if you have measles as the primary infection. And that's what's really causing a lot of these serious complications. And the measles vaccine has been around a very long time and it's safe. You know, they kept coming back to this. I actually, Dr. Masha in Central Pennsylvania, not only does she provide care to the amish men and night communities, that's so deeply impacted.

45:37These care providers are going the next step in organizing mass vaccination campaigns with the MMR vaccine, of course, safe and effective. And they're serving as cultural liaisons. I mean, that was such a tender potent part of our time on the ground. And Nicole is, they are actually serving as cultural liaisons to this community that trusts them so much. And as I'm asking them, these questions about the vaccine. But they're finally having some impact and individuals that are not our families that have not gone vaccinated. They are making headway unfortunately it's too late for many. And we're seeing this outbreak getting worse if not before it's getting better. I want to just include what Trump has said about the measles vaccine. Quote earlier, the summer Trump signed an order limiting vaccines recommended for children and splitting the combined measles months and rebella vaccine into separate doses. In August, Trump was asked what evidence he had that the MMR vaccine is quote lethal. The president said he had heard it was and that some people said so.

46:41Is the MMR vaccine lethal and who are the some people who say so? Well, there's no people that say so even his own FDA nominee that's getting undergoing confirmation hearings right now had to walk that back. There's no credible body that's actually saying that. Nicole is so number one. Number two, the combined vaccine is given for a reason. If there's ever been a safety signal, there have been modifications to other vaccines, nothing needed here. And this also goes to the point about we heard on the ground, Dr. Masha talking about how helpful local and state health officials have been to the response in central Pennsylvania in Belleville. Dr. Martin was actually talking about as colleagues as a place as a source of strength and support. And what is it very difficult to time for that hospital because they're of the knock on effects. So many hospitalizations from measles, it's actually redirecting resources away from say addressing cold and flu in other conditions. So there were a line on certain entities.

47:42What was left unsaid is who they're not relying on and it's the individual suggestions mentioned. Let me play some more your interviews with the doctors there. Do you feel supported by the entities that you think you should be supported by local state federal government when it comes to helping you do your job? You know, I feel supported by my colleagues. I really have to say that our partnership with our state health center has been invaluable. To our community and through our vaccination efforts with them, it's been very wonderful to work with them. To your point, they feel supported by their colleagues and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, not the federal government, obviously. You know, when you're there, you're seeing the signage, you're seeing the symptoms to look out for, mind's as I say, the pandemic days where all of us saw the signage, but it's

48:42measles specific Nicole. You're seeing these health systems and clinics on outbreak footing. None of this is existential or abstract. It's all very real. They're dealing with the ramifications. They're using words like suffering, avoidable suffering. This is a tragedy. So none of this is, is gamesmanship or, and they don't have time for the politics and they kept coming back to those themes. They're really focused on their patients and they'll work ahead. But yes, a lot of the frustration was left unsaid and who they really are relying on at this moment also came out quite clearly. Dr. Bingupta, thank you for your reporting on this and for joining us today to talk about it. But does it for us this week? We want to thank everyone for letting us into their homes, your homes for another week of shows. We are so grateful. Every house has a beginning. Our start with a rebellion. This is not just fashion. This is freedom worn out loud. A place where individuality isn't a look, it's a law.

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