THE SHAKEUP: Prison labour, career minimalism + people are literally saying less??

0:00This is a Triple J podcast. Every billionaire is a douchebag. Parliament is a sick place. So I thought, oh my god, I might be an alcoholic. Obviously, I'm an inadequate guest, if I could. No, that's not what I'm saying. Who's the prime minister? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Yes. All right, let's get into it. It is the shake up on a hack. I'm Dave Marquisey. Time to have a bit of a chat through some of the headlines this week that maybe got you talking. Maybe you were sharing these ones around your group chats. Here's a bit of a taste. A black pack. Play the government one in class or rate in criminals, two people, two work. Get the fugs out there to do some work. Gen Z is adapting career minimalism. For now is real. People are speaking about 300 fewer words a day. On Triple J. Yeah, later we're talking cold calling friends, just out of the blue. I'm wondering, do you do this? And how do you feel about it like if you're on the receiving end of a cold call? Because not everyone's a fan. When was the last time you just picked up the phone to have a chat with someone,

1:00messaging, 043975755, that is coming up later. But first, let's meet our shake up crew for this week. And back, by popular demand, entertainer, et cetera, et cetera. How are you? Hi, Dave. I'm on top of the world today. We're not at one night stand, which is sad, obviously. I ain't no off this weekend. I know, but I'm in a fantastic mood because today my crush liked my gym photo. I made gym selfie. I made Instagram story. That makes everything better, right? It gets the best day of my life. You today. You'd trade one night stand for that any day. Yes, of course. How's life been trading you? You've been busy? I've been very busy. Nightlife's been popping off as we get into the warm a month's ahead. You know, people want to get hot and sweaty in a club again. So that's good news for me. What's happening this weekend? Just work, work, work, work. Work, work, work. I'm doing the Imperial Hotel tonight and tomorrow I'm doing a drag brunch, which is perfect. So I'm going to melt into a puddle. And we're going to get, which is 28 degrees. It's like a furnace. It'll be warm spring has sprung. If you're in Sydney, make sure you check out, et cetera, shows also with us on the shake up today

2:01from Melbourne, podcaster Charlie Anderson. How are you? Hello, hello, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me. At first shake up, how are we feeling? What's the vibe for you? First shake up. Oh, feeling ecstatic. I cannot wait to get into all the conversations. We've got some interesting topics today. We got some really, really good ones. Such a mix. How's your, well, I was going to say, has your weekend shaping up, Charlie? But how's your week shaping up? Because you're about to go overseas. I am. It's a bit frantic getting all my things together, trying to figure out how an earth I'm going to fit it all in a backpack that I'm going to hike in. I don't know what that's going to look like, but we'll see. You're going on a bit of a trek over in Europe, right? I am. I'm actually doing the Dolomites, which has become a bit of a controversial tourist destination over the last week or so as well. And as it has, we'll report back. Let us know how it goes. We've got so much stuff to talk about on this shake up. And remember, if you're listening, I want to hear from you too. If you've got big opinions, let's have them. Hit the text line. 043-975-735, you can always call in to 1-300-0-536.

3:06Let's go. Hack. Victorian prisoners will be put to work repairing the state's crumbling roads. Untriple day. Is it justice or exploitation? The Victorian government plans to get prisoners to help maintain roads. Labor premier Ben Carroll saying that's what he's going to be making happen if his party is re-elected in the state election in November. It has fired off a lot of debate online, though, this plan. Some reckon it's a great idea. They're all for it. Others likening it to slavery. What do you think, Hack? Labor government won incasorated criminals to be put to work. Ben Carroll revealed low-level prisoners would be used to fix Victoria's potholes. A re-elected Carroll Labor government will bring road maintenance back in house. You got yourselves a whole road of time to do. Potholes are an election issue. Crime is an election issue. We're brand up every prisoner in the state and we're about to fill it up a pothole. It would be more expensive to have prisoners fix the potholes.

4:08Not comparable to modern slavery. Get the funds out there to do some work. Untriple day. Yeah, you can already hear a lot of opinions just in that piece of audio there, but I also want to hear your thoughts on this. Do you think Victorian Premier Ben Carroll's plans for this pilot program of prisoners helping out with roadside maintenance is a good thing? Or not. Message in 043-975-7-Triple-5. Already got a heap of messages actually coming through on Hack's Instagram. Someone saying learning to contribute positively to society through working is a good thing. Another person though says prisons should be for rehabilitation, not slave labor. Someone else, prison laborers, built this country, nothing wrong with that. And then another person says natural consequences, they harmed society now they should help, but they should be paid a little. That person says, all right, it is the shakeup on Hack. I'm Dave Markezi getting into some of the headlines of the week with entertainer, et cetera, et cetera. Podcaster, Charlie Anderson, et cetera.

5:09What do you make of this one? Well, I think it's complex. It's kind of like an ethical lasagna. There's so many layers to this. One way of putting it in here. Yeah, and I don't know if I'm the meat or the cream cheese. Yeah, that's a malign. But look, I think the certain community is disproportionately represented in our prison system. And I think to have those people engage in forced labor, it is a pretty tricky ethical and moral situation, especially our First Nations communities who are disproportionately represented in our incarceration statistics. But also on top of that, I'm just kind of concerned. Like, I don't want someone who is sent to prison for, I don't know, building dodgy bridges to be then built bridges for us. You really need to screen these prisoners and make sure that maybe a little bit of like credit card fraud and then they can work on the roads. Okay, interesting. So you're saying, depends on the crime. And we should say that it's people who are in, you know, minimum supervision, prisons, not like the maximum security ones,

6:09the minimum security in mates. Charlie, what are your thoughts on this? I agree, very complicated. But at the same time, I think, you know, it really depends on how we view prisons and what the role of prisons are. If we view them as rehabilitative, which I think most people do now and all the research says that when we use prisons in a more rehabilitative way, they tend to generate lower rates of reoffending and better outcomes. Then I think that actually we need to look at it more from a position of what are all the things that we could do to support prisoners, not just employment, but also how can we make that employment better for them? How can we also include education? How can we make sure that they're connected with communities? And then that actually means that we could end up with a better outcome for everyone. The community's included. We've got so many messages pouring through already on this one, as you can imagine. Someone says, look, tell me the government is broke without telling me is that person's opinion? Another person saying, put the politicians out there to clean up the roads.

7:12That's their solution. But then someone else says it'll be the only good thing Labour have done. Why not? Get them working. Hopefully it'll help rehabilitate them. Another person says, honestly, why not being kept locked up all day and night is already bad enough? Why not get them out and moving while helping the community? And someone else saying, I think people on Jobseeker should have to do things like this in order to get their benefits is what that person says. I mean, it's a bit, it does sound like a lot of people think that this is a good thing. They feel that if people are behind bars, it's because they've committed a crime against society. And they don't feel, you know, it's a bad thing to have these inmates working for the community. Can you see why that's a popular sentiment? I can absolutely see why it's a popular sentiment. I'm really interested by the person who texted it and said, tell us the government's broke without telling us they broke. Because it's like, where is all of the taxpayer money going that subsidising other things that necessarily we haven't agreed to as a society?

8:13You know, there are many instances where people fall on hard times end up, you know, incarcerated because of those hard times, maybe living below the poverty line already. So then to have those people have to go back into hard labour as a form of rehabilitation. I mean, maybe we do only let the white collar criminals have to do all this work. Because you know, then at least it's not people that were already struggling and may have, you know, shot-lifted or done something that has put them in that minimum security prison situation, have to go out and continue working hard to maintain the roads for all the people that are ripping off the system. Charlie, can you see why there are some people on our text line now who are saying, how is this slavery? Like they don't understand why that word is being used? Yeah, I can. I can understand why it's confusing because actually prison labour has been used in this country for a very long time. But I think what it comes down to is the fact that if you think about currently the Australian minimum wage is $26.44 and what is being proposed here is to pay these workers

9:16seven to nine dollars a day. And if we think about, you know, that rehabilitation piece, when you actually come out of prison and you have such little money, the rates of reoffending are just going to soar because how are you going to integrate back into society without any money to help you out? So I think that's where the slavery comments come in. But I do understand it can be quite nuanced and it's difficult to get to that position without having a really wholesome conversation about it. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of opinions pouring through now. Someone says, look, I don't see it as a bad thing, especially considering how much tax we pay to support prisoners. Another person says, why not let the prisoners volunteer and see if there are any takers that way? Another person saying it should be an opt-in opportunity. Some might like the ability, the service, the community is a way of reintroduction and rehabilitation. And someone else saying, people in prison are already given jobs. It's nothing new. Yeah, it is interesting to look at that because already there are work programs,

10:17obviously within prisons, like in New South Wales, a whole bunch of stuff that inmates often do. Making flags is one of them. In Victoria, producing number plates in South Australia making timber furniture. So there's definitely, you know, work programs that are happening already. The idea around this has been to fix pot holes in Victoria, which seems to have really captivated the Victorian of electorate, I guess, etc. Why is it that pot holes really, really grab us and we get so passionate about pot holes, do you reckon? I don't know, I'm gay, I can't drive. So I'm not really passionate about it. But, you know, I've got a few costumes with holes in them that can come over and they can help me. So them are? Yes, so them are. I'm actually going to start my own program. I'm just calling the prisons to send some. You know, send them around to help with some rhinestone here. Yeah, they can see it working. I mean, Charlie, yeah, there's going to be this new website, apparently, as well, where Victorians can upload pictures of pot holes in their area. Do you think that's going to be popular? I mean, you're in Victoria now. What do you reckon?

11:18Yeah, I actually do. I think people love to have a job and I think people love to feel part of their community and if that involves taking photos of things that they've been frustrated by every single day, you know, that pot hole on their commute, I can definitely see that, you know, helping out a bit with the process. Yeah. Just not sure if using prisoners for it is the best way for work personally. So maybe some hesitancy there. Let's read some more messages from the hack audience. Someone says it should be opt-in. Maybe with a reduction in jail time, considering the time that served doing this kind of work. Another person says, yeah, they should be put to work. They've done the crime. Now they should do the hard time and someone else may be opt-in and have this less in their sentence. Okay, a few people are saying that. The opt-in situation. Some other messages on the other side, do we really need more criminals working on Victorian infrastructure? Another person, it won't work because Labor can't manage their spending. They would pay more for three guards to watch these workers than what the actual proper workers would cost to do the job properly is that person's opinion. And someone else saying,

12:18I'm okay with prison labor being used for community services, but they should get proper reimbursement with real money paid to rebuild their lives when they get out. All right, we're going to move on. Don't worry, you're not lazy. You're just a career minimalist on Triple J. Yeah, have you heard this term before? Career minimalism. The latest term young Australians are using to describe the way they're framing their work life. Maybe a little less attention on climbing the ladder, a little more on work life balance. So why do you think people are choosing to take the foot off the accelerator a bit when it comes to their careers? And can you relate? Is this you? Ha. So if you haven't heard, this is the brand new trend. Gen Z is adopting career minimalisms. When you treat your 9-5, as a means of just living your livelihood. Rise and grind is out and boundaries are in. Furnout is real. Career minimalism means just looking out for yourself. And it's not about doing what it's about doing it. It's exactly what you're being paid for. What do you do for work?

13:18Do you? What do you do for life? What are your hobbies? What are your interests? Who are you without the job? On Triple J. Are you someone who's chosen career minimalism? Have you swapped your big paying job for one that lets you live a little more? Why did you do it? Do you regret it after a little while? Is it worth the pay cut the fewer opportunities to climb the ladder? To get your mental health and life back on track? 043-975-7 Triple 5. You can call in to 1300-035-36. It is the shake up on Hacum Dave Markhazy, getting into the news of the week with podcast at Charlie Anderson, entertainer, etc. etc. Charlie, have you heard of this career minimalism? I have. I actually came across Grace, the girl who was the feature in the ABC's recent news. Yeah, article. There was an article this week that went up on ABC News and there was this case study, Grace, who talked about choosing to do this, maybe deciding to take her career with not as much opportunity but why she decided to do that

14:19was to have a bit more balance. What did you make of it? Yeah, I thought it was really cool. I definitely think there's a rising sentiment among Gen Z where it's kind of, we're trying to enjoy our lives a little bit more. We're trying, we're not as convinced, I think, by the working 12 hours a day to become wealthier, rich, and then enjoy life later after retirement. I think a lot of us are trying to enjoy the little things and I think that we're trying to do that in a way that doesn't require us to burn out. Yeah, makes sense. I guess it's that already you agree with that. Why do you think we're seeing more Australians and it's not just career minimalism, it's stuff like quiet quitting terms like that that we've started to hear a lot more in the last few years. Why do you think this trend is taking off? I actually don't know, I'm going to do something controversial here. I'm going to disagree with this. I don't do that. I am because. Because I am a career maximalist and that's because I'm monetized all of my hobbies. Everything I have this one. Everything I know. This is what. This is charity work.

15:21Free years. Free years. My human contact for the week. But everything that I've enjoyed doing in my free time, I found a way to turn that to monetize it because I'm a creative freelancer. I don't get the freedom of being like, oh, maybe I'll just pull back a little bit. I have to try to make a living however I can. So if I'm good at something or I enjoy it, let's see if I can make a dollar out of it. I was going to say that. Do you think the people who are choosing to do this are a certain kind of person, a person that maybe can afford to step back a little bit and maybe know they have the support of family there. If they need it in a few years time and they don't have to be pushing and pushing and pushing to strive and earn more money to pay the bills. Potentially, or even if it's someone that just has a job where they work a nine to five, I mean, that's not my life. I don't know what that is necessarily like. I haven't worked a nine to five in years. So if you've been riding the corporate wave and you go, I want to take a little break and have a little pause, then all power to you. But that's just not the way I live my life.

16:22Feel every hour with a monetized opportunity. Please, you've got to do it. You've got to do it. I mean, Charlie, some might call this laziness and those people might be of older generations. What do you think? Is it laziness? I don't think so. I think it's just a pivot in what we're valuing at the moment. And I actually wonder if it has something to do with COVID. I think Gen Z, we all became adults. We all started out our careers in that time and health consciousness was a really big thing. We were really learning a lot about public health, our own health, mental health as well through TikTok and social media. And so I do wonder whether or not we're actually just doing this out of an attempt to prioritize our health, whether that be mental health, yeah, as I said, avoiding burnout as well. But I do have to agree with you, etc. I think that in the same breath, there's this stream of content which is like, optimise everything, monetise everything, do everything you can because the cost of living is so high. Yeah, we've got a lot of messages coming through on this one.

17:24Lots of interesting stories. Someone says, I've never heard the term career minimalism, but I spent the whole year doing this. I work two to three hours a day, five days a week. It's done wonders for my mental health with gigs, like gardening and dog walking. I don't have to work eight hours a day to live my life. Is that person there? Someone else saying career minimalism means you limit your income. So if you're going to do it, stop complaining that you can't pay your rent, is what that person is saying there. Another person got to find a good balance. I've been grinding like a dog since I started working at 18. Feel like I've worked away my entire 20s, that person says. And someone else, I have two degrees and choose to work a retail job because it allows me to relax, preserve my mental health, and be present. The pay cut was an adjustment, but now I just see a paycheck as a paycheck. Etc. How much do you reckon this has to do with Gen Z's looking at maybe millennials and Gen X's the generation above and going? Well, it hasn't worked out too well for them. Has it? Like they've really, they were trying to get everything

18:26the house, the this, the career, and it's not worked for them. So why even bother? Yeah, it could be that. It could be the fact we look around to the world and go, well, the world's about to burst into flames, the climate catastrophes impending upon us all, you know, cost of living so high, we don't know what our future is necessarily going to look like. So either we invest in our passions and things that really excite us and think that, you know, we might think I'm making a difference to the world and we work that until we're blue in the face. Or we, you know, walk a dog for three hours a day apparently. But to be honest, maybe I'm going to make a career change. I'd become a professional drag dog walker. This could have changed. I mean, I feel like there's a gap in the market there. So maybe you could do that, but this could have changed your entire life, et cetera, this conversation. It could have been you said gap in the market. I'm going off after this. I'm putting up a listing. I'm going to monetize it. Here we go. You're going to do it. You're going to do it. I mean, Charlie, what happens though if everyone loses ambition? Like is that? Is there a really shoe there that if everyone does, you know, slow down a bit that we're not going to get as much done?

19:29Obviously, or maybe innovation is not going to be as widespread as it has been in past generations. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question because what if your ambition is just for something completely different outside of paid work? And I'm seeing sort of this rise of like, you know, career minimalism sometimes means doing those jobs that don't require so much brain space so that outside of it, you actually have the ability to potentially get innovative. And then we can still see ambition come through in different ways. So I actually think that it's not so much a laziness thing. I think it's just a redirection of interest and ambition. Charlie, would you consider it? I sort of am doing it. Oh, okay. Okay. And it's a recent thing that you've kind of switched to it. Really recent. Yeah. So I have my own podcast on the side. And to build that, I haven't been able to hold, like, have a full time job. So I work a casual job in a role that I love. And then that gives me the ability to also put as much effort as I can into the podcast. And so I suppose I wouldn't call myself a minimalist

20:30because I feel as though I'm working 12 hour days, it just consists of lots of different things. Yeah, it's really interesting. Someone says, this is great, but let's not have any complaints, please, when you can't afford a house. Is that person's message there? Someone else says, I used to work in corporate IT in Sydney earning six figures. Now I live on the far south coast doing grunt casual work and I'm a lot happier. Someone else, Sophie, saying, I swapped real estate sales in Sydney's Eastern suburbs. A lot of Sydney site is messaging in to community services for better work life balance, less money, definitely more happiness. And another person says, when you're working overtime and still can't get ahead, it feels like the only option is to pull back and focus on the little things that actually count in life. Happy. People are speaking about 300 fewer words a day with each passing year on Triple J. Yeah, have you heard this? We're all speaking less. For real. I know it's hard to believe, it's listening to the shake up today, but apparently we're using fewer and fewer words a year on year.

21:32So why is this happening? What kind of impact is it having on us? And who out there is bucking the trend? Ack. People are speaking about 300 fewer words a day. They say we're losing the art of small talk. So if you guys have ever heard of the Gen Zs there, they prefer to text news, social media. And they're not even thinking words, they're thinking an emoji. One thing young people are not doing is answering, calls, don't call me, I don't like to call. I'm a firm believer and not answering the phone. Do you call me without texting first? I'm assuming there's an emergency. Next try, unknown number. I don't even answer calls from people I know. On Triple J. Yeah, how do you feel about a source speaking fewer words? Do you have a problem with it? Maybe you get around it actually. You love a silent retreat. Those quiet carriages on the train, you get around those. Someone on Haxe Instagram now saying, I feel like we're speaking less because we've lost those spaces we used to talk in. People working from home, a loss of third spaces. Yeah, we did talk about that on HAC recently actually a few weeks ago. Third places, maybe diminishing and people trying to get them back.

22:35Also, do you ever call your friends? When was the last time you just picked up the phone? Call to mate for no reason. How do you feel about a cold call if you get one? In this messaging age, 0439757 Triple V, it's the shake up on Hacum Dave Marquese, getting into some of the headlines with entertainer, et cetera, et cetera, podcasted Charlie Anderson as well, et cetera, look, I don't want to say anything controversial here, but I've known you for a few years, and no offense, but I can't say I've clocked that you're speaking fewer words. I was going to say they didn't survey any of my exes in this study or they would have said too many words. No, I am a chronic yapa. Me too. My husband runs a mile a minute. That's my strength, you know, that's my power. Well, does it really upset you that fewer people around you are speaking at seams? No, you're not. You're going to be the only one speaking, so. No, I'm more attentive of me. Dream of it. Dream of it. You're a huge fan of me. Charlie, what about you? Are you surprised by this? Oh, yeah, I am a bit surprised by this,

23:36but then when you put it in perspective with the third place, it tends to make a lot of sense, I think. It reminds me of this interesting sociology study that looked at the value of what they called weak tie friendships, and essentially this is like relationships you have with your local coffee barista, or the postman, and because we're working from home, we're not getting those interactions, and those are actually really valuable for our well-being. You do think we're protecting our peace a little too much? Like we know the importance of getting your alone time and sitting with yourself, and there's lots of advice around that, but can we take it a bit too far to your reckon, Charlie? Oh, I think so. I mean, look, I completely relate to it, et cetera, I definitely am speaking. Maybe more words. Maybe all the words people aren't speaking. I am taking because. Yeah, I don't know why I have got drag performer and a podcast to offer commentary on this, and me as a podcast host myself, we're speaking a lot of words every single day, but yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting.

24:37Someone on the text line says fewer words. Yep. So that's all they're saying on that. The other thing I was asking about is cold calls, because there was an article that I saw earlier this week that was a person writing about cold calling their friends and how that's not really acceptable anymore. And I wanted to know, is this something that you ever do, et cetera, do you just pick up the phone and cold call a friend? All the time. I think it's incredibly chic to call a friend. I think it's, if I could call my friends all the time, I would. The only thing that I... They pick up? Yes, they pick up. And sometimes I face time them, a cold call face time. And I think that's incredibly chic as well, because you get an insight into their lives. I was going to ask, because when we were discussing this amongst the hack team this morning, someone said, oh, face time is actually a bit more, I don't know, approachable. Like a face time, they can deal with a cold call by itself, maybe feels a bit threatening, or that there's something wrong. Do you agree with that? Look, I'm pretty, I'm pretty apathetic. I love communicating, but the only thing that I think is a big no-no

25:39is if someone doesn't pick up the phone, if you call again within the same half an hour with it, without sending a text saying, hey, I was just calling to say hi, then that seems urgent and threatening. And then if you call back and say, what's up? And they say, on nothing I just wanted to talk, then I get annoyed. OK. You know, you've got to... Just give them a cold call, if they don't pick up, they don't pick up. Don't push the right. Don't be bothering people, Charlie, thoughts on this one? Yeah, I think that's cool. To be honest, I don't think that my friends and I have a very good, cold call relationship, I will say. We're more of waist-knots, people. Oh, I'll say. Yeah, which I kind of think is like the perfect happy medium. You're still speaking words, but you're not imposing. But at the same time, I have a friend in the UK and we just butt-dial each other whenever because the time difference is so hard that you may as well just call six times in a row and hope for the best. And there's just this mutual understanding that it's chill if you don't pick up. That's kind of nice. OK, as long as no one's offended, because that was the kind of theme in this piece on the card. It said, it's no longer appropriate to pick up your phone and call your friend whenever you feel like it.

26:41In 2026, the polite thing to do is to text witty observations, major life updates, or just I miss yous. So that was that person's opinion. We've got a lot of messages on the text line. Someone says, millennial here, I love getting calls out of the blue from France. I feel that we're slowly becoming less socially fluent after so many years of so-called social media use. Yeah, I mean, if anyone wants to cold call us on the shake-up now, please, 1-300-O-Triple-536, the phone line's a right open. You can do that right now. Another person, Lloyd E. from Newcastle, says, I actually received two cold calls from close mates today. And I absolutely loved it. Just a quick call goes down a treat, but it does get me thinking that I should be cold calling other people more to be honest. And someone else says, I've picked up the phone three times in the last couple of hours. What is wrong with you, young people? Is that person's opinion? I called calls producer Eva this week, actually. I thought, I don't know, I just woke up and thought, I'm going to call Eva before work. Was that the wrong thing to do, et cetera?

27:43What do you think? Because she kind of picked up really surprised us, like, hello, Dave. She thought I was in some horrible situation. I'm not the ABC's, hey, char. I'm going to invoice for this if I give my professional opinion. But I'm going to say I think people, I, we're very cold call my older relatives, and they get so excited when they hear my voice on the phone. Everyone now, if you've got an older relative, you don't speak too much and you love, you should call them, because they really do love it, because they don't know. They don't know about TikTok. You can't send them a real. They don't. Just give a little buzz. Give a little buzz. You've actually got Kaylyn on the line with us now. Kaylyn, you're 25, and do you like a cold call? No, I don't like a cold call. Like, if someone calls me, I'll talk to them back straight away. OK. I prefer to have, like, if I call someone, it's better to sound me important. OK. I want to talk to them. So it's all working with instruction. Yeah. So if you get a cold call, then you just start on,

28:47start on monitoring what you need to work for. Fair enough, Kaylyn. It sounds stressful. I'm with you. I can hear why that could be an absolute issue. We've got a lot of other people calling in now. I wish I had time to take them all. A big thanks to our shake-up guests, et cetera, et cetera, and Charlie Anderson. Thank you so much for both coming on. Thank you. You're doing so much. And a big thanks also to the hardworking hack team for a big week. I'm going to be back after the weekend to make sure you keep listening to Triple J over the weekend. One night stand, of course, happening. Live from Griffith. I'll catch you on Monday. See you. Bye.