Michael Meade: The Heart of Transformation

0:00The ocean moves us, surfing a wave or savoring the view. The ocean delights us as playful otters restore coastal kelp forest. The ocean connects us. Visit monoraybeacquarium.org slash connects. Music Welcome to destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning. Well, if you've been following me now for a few months, you know that I'm a big advocate of artificial intelligence. I crossed a major hurdle today and discovered quite surprisingly that you can upload documents in other languages and AI will translate it for you.

1:00And this is for me as an amateur archaeologist if you want to call me that or historian. Quite surprising but quite refreshing and really fun. I have came across some documents. Some are Padre the kinkistador priests that followed with the Spanish kinkistadors. Documents written in Spanish as well as some noted my and scholars who have passed away who only wrote in Spanish. And some of the research and the translations have been eye opening. And I had featured a author who I interviewed once about seven eight years ago Carlos Bareros who is a shaman from Guatemala who passed away during COVID unfortunately.

2:01And I was looking forward to continuing our conversation because he was one that had been empowered by a group of grandfather and elders from different tribes in Guatemala. And one of the things that he had told me is that they were about to turn over a new code is there was only four known my and books in existence but there's always been rumors of other books that are being held back. And if you follow any of the history of the Guatemala people the mind indigenous people they have been treated very poorly not only by the Mexican government but for hundreds of years they've been subjugated to brutal treatment. You know genocide not just killing people but intellectual gem in intellectual genocide.

3:07So that makes sense that they wouldn't turn over any kind of new data or research and Carlos was one who was going to introduce it. Well we have no idea if that will ever happen now that he's passed away. But in a series of documents and the very first book that he wrote he makes an amazing claim from the elders regarding the number of what is known as ceremonial centers. And the reason that's important is that there is a portion of my book on pyramids where at one time there were 55 excuse me 52,000 active pyramids. So pyramids meaning that they are energized as some form or another in a manner we're still trying to figure out.

4:13Well in this new translation it's not 52,000 it's 260,000 ceremonial centers. I'll repeat that 260,000 ceremonial centers. Now that is a huge huge number of cities that we have yet to find. Now if you've been following news, my news you'll know that in 2017 the consortium of universities and American companies invested in the United States. Invested in a LiDAR project that scanned the Payton jungle, it's the Guadamata biosphere. And they found 60,000 unknown, unexcavated, unsurveyed ruins.

5:17And they've already discovered that it's not necessarily 60,000 pyramids. It's cities, temples, dwellings, structures that they are able to calculate. I don't know and I need to find this out. I don't know how they figured it out 60,000 but somebody did a count. This is amazing first of all. Secondly, that is the only major location that they've done a scan like this. In other areas where there's dense populations like Competje, the state of Competje, the state of Yucatan, and other locations, there hasn't been significant LiDAR scans. And so when they say 260,000 ceremonial centers, I don't think that's too far off. If just one small 200 mile radius came up with 60,000.

6:20But this is the kind of information that is being opened to us non-Spanish speakers. And the power of artificial intelligence. I was blown away at that number. I was blown away. That is a civilization that is on the move. And remember also that archaeologists have divided the Maya into two periods, the pre-classic, roughly 2000 BC up until about 300 or 250 BC. And then the classic, 200 AD and a couple of hundred years ago. And this is another question that I bring up in this book is, what is the difference? What is the, you know, you would think the pre-classic would be very rudimentary. They're challenged by building, engineering, architecture, land forms, agriculture.

7:28It goes on and on. It turns out that the pre-classic in many ways is much more sophisticated in the classic. And the largest freestanding pyramids are being discovered that are very old. So we don't really, we don't really have a great idea. We have a, we assume a great deal about the Maya. And it's an eye opener for me. And this is why my book is now reached to a couple of, it's like 300 pages with illustrations and photographs. So wow, AI continues to surprise and delight. And it's just getting better. I did a quick review the other day and I asked Watson. And Watson is my AI assistant. What we can expect in the next couple of years, 24 months.

8:28In terms of being able to support data and, and a report on it. And the response was we'll be able to work doubly fast or 50% faster, which blows my mind. And really gets me excited about my next project, which is regarding the largest sculptures in the world known as the Colossae of Egypt. And I'll, I'm going to talk a little bit about that, but I'll discuss it more later in, in the year, probably more into 2027. Very exciting. And remember, remember this. I encourage everyone to at least experiment with chat GPT free version, cloud free version, Gemini free version. And if you resist it, just know that it's going to be embedded and it has been embedded in Google search and other search engines. And eventually, I think this goes from most of these search engines. They will be 100% AI driven.

9:42It's just much more flexible. It's more versatile and it's faster, which is amazing. So anyhow, I continue to be surprised by the power and support and the insight given to me by artificial intelligence. I guess today is Michael Meade, where he's a returning speaker on the program. He has a new book called a time for transformation of earth. And it deals with a lot of crises that's going on now. And he presents an insight into resolving these problems from a very personal perspective that I like. So that's our program today. And I know you're going to enjoy it. I was just going over our I January for our eighth annual Grand Egyptian tour next April. It's going to be April 25th through May 8th.

10:46And I got to tell you, we hit the ground running with some of the most amazing sites you'll ever imagine. We're going to see the great sphinx, the largest free-stained sculpture in the world. On the first day, we're out of the hotel. And this is what they call a private visit where you get to walk around without the general public, just the guide, Muhammad and his team, and your co attendees and see this magnificent sculpture up close and personal. I got to tell you, it's really rare. I haven't been to that part of the Giza Plateau in almost 10 years. And I've been wanting to get back and Muhammad got us in on the very first day. That's the tip of the iceberg. We get that free opportunity to go on the great pyramid. We're going to see temples. We're going to see smaller pyramids, the red, the ben pyramid. And a number of unique temples that are ancient. And of course, my favorites are Karnak, Luxor and many, many others.

11:52For all the details and to register, go to earthangens.com, forward slash tours and check it out. It is one of the greatest tours you will ever experience. It's first class from start to finish. And if you get your registration in before the beginning of the new year, use H250 and you'll get a magnificent discount to start everything. For all the details and to register for more information, go to earthangens.com, forward slash tours, look for the banner. Come out of the journey. We're getting about halfway full. We only take 20 people. And if you have any questions whatsoever, send me an email, send it to earthhages, the number four, the letter U. At Gmail, I promise to get right back to you. The eighth annual Grand Egyptian tour April 25th through May 8th. Don't miss it.

13:25It's always great to have Michael meet back on the program. And it's not only is the inspirational, but we get a sense of where we're going as a species consciously. And also a number of different levels. The new book where featuring is called the Heart of Transformation, personal and cultural renewal on earth. And we're going to find out just what is going on here in this program. So Michael, welcome to Destiny. Great to have you on the program again. Great to be back with you, Cliff. Talk about what was happening in your life when you started putting this book together. We're going to go over some of the cultural activities that are happening. But what was going on with you? What's on your mind when you started writing this book? Well, I realized that we're in this period of radical transformation. And I had written a book called Why the World Doesn't End. And I was trying to show that we had already entered this end of an era phase. And that when we look at the world from a mythological lens, the world can't come to an end.

14:36That the world had been recreating itself all along. And as certain critical times, you can see how the transformation occurs. Go back to the Renaissance in Europe after the dark ages. And yet there's lots of nuances there that you could pay attention to. But in a rough way, you go into the dark ages. And as if people lose a certain kind of awareness and things go dark. And then inside the darkness there's the sparks of renewal of imagination and a renewal. And so here comes the Renaissance, which means rebirth or renewal. And so people recognize that that was a historical event in the Western world. So then I'm watching everything, observing things, feeling things and realizing what's different now is we have nature rattling while culture is unraveling. And so this is a bigger transformative period. And so I decided, you know, I was going to work on ideas of transformation.

15:36And then while I was working on it, I got this image of vision, little vision of a heart burning in the sky. And that becomes the cover of the book that a radical transformation involves more than a change of mind. It involves a deep change of heart. And so that's why it's called the heart of transformation. In other words, when someone or a society transforms, the old Greek word was metanoia, which means not just a change of mind, but a change of heart that affects the change of mind. And I think the heart is key to what's going on. And so that's got me into the material. And then along the way I've started to think, well, what would a younger person need to know going into what here has come radically fast moving transformation of life on earth.

16:39And so I broken into three parts transformation seen through the lens of nature transformation seen through the lens of how human human nature has transformed throughout time that and that's right of passage or initiation process is how humans dealt with it. And then the last part is cultural transformation. And so that's that's how the book kind of came about. Before we get into the nature highlights that you presenting your book, can you address your interest, your focus on Eastern philosophy, I see Tibetan artifacts behind you. But the hiddu believe through the uges that were finishing with a Cali, Yuga period. Yeah, it's very dark. Yeah, and very heavy and very dysfunctional. Can you address that for a minute. Yeah, Cali, Yuga means time essentially or long time and Cali means dark. And so these are the dark times again in the sense that we have been plunged into a depth in which human culture has become polarized throughout the world.

17:54And various different cultures are polarized each in their own style. And now you have the potential of major conflicts between East and West and you know you have the kind of world war effect comes back when Russia invades Ukraine. It's as if history is coming back in some sense and being replayed at the same time as even bigger conflicts are being played out. And so that's darkness in the sense going into dark areas of conflict and polarization. And so the Cali, Yuga thing is just brilliant and I talk about it a little right about it in the book. But they're in this really old imagination where a Yuga is like 432,000 years or something like that. And so my suggestion is that we not take the literal counting park of the of the old Vedic system, but that we take the basic idea, which were an extended dark time.

18:56And then I put that into creation mythology so that creation first of all, we've been training the Western world through a narrow view of life seen mostly through his history that creation happened at one point and everything came from that and we're in the afterglow of it. But creation stories are actually recreation stories. Creation stories would be told over and over again in a traditional tribe or traditional society. You would several times a year, you would be hearing and even participating in a creation story, which makes it a recreation story. In other words, the world didn't just become created at some point knowing can find that point that keep pushing it further and further back. The world is recreating as we sit here and speak. The world is constantly in the process of recreating itself and you can see it most readily through nature. A forest will be, you know, first of all, very varied and very dense with its growth and up come these really tall trees reaching for the sun. And then those very great living symbols of ascension begin to collapse.

20:09And they collapse all the way down into the earth and they rot and then they become the nourishment for the new trees coming up. So people used to do what was called reading the text of nature in order to understand human nature and the world. And so I'm in the beginning of the book saying the text of nature is showing us that we are not at the end of time, we're at the end of an era, which means there's a collapse process and then a renewal process. And then later on in the book, I get into redefining well redefining collapse as being part of the process of really ancient process through which everyone understood that a collapsing structure opens up room for greater imagination. So even though all the institutions now are kind of hollow and they're collapsing and they can keep up with the rapidity of change, things are moving too fast.

21:12The Congress, even if it wanted to act, can't because they can't get into gear to match the amount of change going on. So that seems very discouraging and almost and it's chaotic. But while the institutions become more hollow, there's an acceleration of calling. So there's a whole part of the book where I'm talking about calling and how the each individual is called to a certain path in life and that the calling increases as everything falls apart. So there's lots of ways that I'm trying to show that what looks like the end is actually the end beginning. And then the word end turns out not to mean good night, finito, it's all over. The word end actually means remnant or loose end. And from the loose ends of the chaos of the former world, the next world is woven and we're invited to be both observers of that, witnesses of that and potential what I'm calling agents of recreation rather than AI agents that are going to be out of control and turn against their creator.

22:23We're called to be agents of creation, not agents of chaos. I really wish we had a calendrical science like the Maya put together and for all we know they could have a calendar that's active right now that we're not aware of. That's telling us that we're at the end of a dark period and we're coming back onto another cycle. But given that let's talk a little bit about nature you bring up the monarch butterfly habitat and I want you to explain a little bit about why this is an important sign that nature is giving us. So throughout the ages, I mean imagine our ancestors who are living close to the earth and engage with nature. They're seeing a different world than what we see, especially now with digital world and now the AI world. They're seeing the world of nature and they're realizing our connection to it and they also were seeing and understanding in symbolic metaphorical terms.

23:23Human soul is metaphorical by its nature and one of the big metaphors was the caterpillar turning into the butterfly because you could observe it. You can still observe it. It's a daily miracle. And so it gets interesting then. So throughout the ages and especially in the Renaissance, butterflies were a really big image in the Renaissance because it shows this renewal, recreational capacity. So then you get into modern days and modern scientists are looking of course going right into this cocoon. They can get in there and look around and they start to make these realizations like first of all the caterpillar or larva is the technical term. The cells of the larva or caterpillar are not related to the cells of the butterfly at all. From a biological point of view, it's like two beings inside the same bee. And so that was the first realization they had. There was no connection. Then they realized that the cells of the larva are trying to kill the cells of the butterfly because it sees them as the enemy and they're correct because for the butterfly to be born, the caterpillar or larva has to die.

24:38And so inside the cocoon is this life and death ending renewal thing going on, but it's also a battle between life and death. And so they realized the magnificence kind of iteration of this that this is the microscopic or smaller view of the greatest sense of transformation which is supposed to happen in an individual's life. So then I look for really unusual elements of story. And one is that the Greek word for butterfly is psyche, which is also the Greek word for human soul. So that is to say if we use the lens of psychology, mythology, we see that the butterfly in the life of the butterfly in the life of the human soul are parallel. They correlates. We are here to transform. And so in the beginning of the book in the first part, I'm saying transformation is the elemental dynamic of the world that the cosmos is constantly transforming.

25:38The stars are born and then they die and more stars come. Nature as I already said in the case of forest and in the case of the butterflies is always transforming. And we humans, individual humans, are souls or he had a transform. So I'm trying to make that case early on because we're living in this time of transformation. And if we don't understand that we are connected to nature, human nature is secretly and necessarily connected to actual nature. If we understood that better, we'd understand we can tolerate the time of transformation. We can actually enter into it and benefit from it. And then one more thing about the caterpillar and the butterfly. So they decided since the caterpillar was trying to kill the butterfly cells, what if they took the butterfly out before all this heavy duty stuff happened and they just allowed it to grow outside the cocoon. So they take the butterfly out and it can't fly. Then it so it turns out that the resistance inside the cocoon, the resistance caused by the caterpillar gives the butterfly the strength to fly.

26:47And to me, that means we can accept and understand why we resist the very changes we most want to have. Every once a change that's the basis of all advertising. If people didn't want to change advertising wouldn't work. And the idea, but then people resist the change and that turns out to be natural. And if we allow the resistance to be there, we might realize we're preparing for the birth of our own butterfly, which in ancient Greek would be called the transformation of our own psyche. Oh, I love that. In today's Western society, especially here in the United States, people are exhausted by the political turmoil, the environmental changes. We just seem to be on a dysfunctional trend right now. How do people begin looking to the positive to the renewal, as you call it. And working with more potential future aspects that are more positive.

27:50So in the middle part of the book, I go into transformation as seen through in a sense, the history of human psyche. And so a key thing there is what most people call right of passage, which you could also call the archetype of initiation. And so the principle there is that until modern times, every girl, every boy, every person, when they came to the end of childhood, they would enter a right of passage. And the idea is that from birth until adolescence, a person is in a developmental process. And modern psychology is really good at identifying the stages during that process and how to understand it. But once you hit adolescence, the change is now not developmental. You don't develop from an adolescent into adult. It's more like the larva and the butterfly. It's a radical transformation that involves kind of a leap of faith. And all cultures at one time understood that. I think just experientially, they realized, oh, young people have trouble figuring out what to do and who they are. Maybe we should focus on this.

28:59And so out of that came the archetype, really, of initiation or rights of passage. So I want to revisit that to look at the elements of it. And so there's three stages of that classically. This comes from Analvan Genneps book called the right of passage. And the first step is separation. That is to say, the girls and boys in different cultures, done in different ways, would separate from their own childhood, from their own family, and from everyone they knew and everything they had. And they would go as if an orphan into this process. So the first step is separation. So my kind of point of view is that we are being separated from everything that we thought was the world. I mean, it's chaotic and people were losing things all the time and you can't grab them and bring them back. And so we've already entered this separation phase. In the separation phase, they would get it introduced to the idea of death. Modern cultures are the only cultures that don't talk about death and particularly teach young people about death. Because modern cultures don't know that the underlying mystery is birth, death, and rebirth or birth, death, and renewal.

30:11That's the underlying mystery of the forest. It's the mystery of the butterfly. It's the mystery of human nature, the mystery of the world. And that mystery has been forgotten or dismissed. So that first part of the initiation is happening all the time without the understanding of the process. The second step is called, well, liminality is usually what it's called. The phase of being be Twix One thing and another thing be Twix them between. I'm saying that's where we are. We're in a collective right of passage. We've already separated from the world we thought we had. It's gone. I know some people are trying to bring it back and coming back. And we haven't yet clear visions of the world that's trying to come into existence or into view. We'd be Twix One world and the other world. And that's where transformation occurs. And that transformation requires a descent. And so the middle of a right of passage would be a descent. Oftentimes, whether it's girls or boys, they would be in a dark hut or in a dark place for a long time.

31:14And the darkness is where we find the sparks of renewal and the sparks of inspiration in the case of humans. So it's like a vision quest where you have to be out in the darkness and exposed to nature. And then you get the vision of what your life is about. I'm saying we're there collectively as well as individually. And then where it would go in the third step would be a return to the human community. But the human community would understand that each person is coming back different and they're coming back with a genuine sense of self and a deeper sense of understanding their own life. And then they would be blessed for going through those changes. And that's the part that's often missing. But anyway, I'm using that as the map, the psychological map. So we're already separated. We cannot get back to the world we had. And we're in this darkness that we can call polarization conflict, loss of principles, loss of morality, loss of all kinds of things.

32:18That's Calla Yuga description, but it's also the liminal in between space. And if we can inhabit that in between in a meaningful way, we get revelations of ourselves and revelations of the possibilities for human community. So then in the middle part of the book, I'm saying we are living in a time when the transformation of humanity is trying to happen at the same time as a transformation of culture and the world is trying to happen. We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves and we'll return shortly with my guest today. Michael Meade introducing his new book, The Heart of Transformation. We'll be right back with you.

33:33I've been talking now for over a year about an amazing bourbon whiskey called Chatnouga whiskey made in Chatnouga, Tennessee. It is so smooth and so flavorful. I recently discovered they were awarded the craft producer of the year for the last four years by a whiskey magazine. This is a phenomenon because there are so many whiskeys. If you go to the liquor store, if you go to places like Bevmo or Total Wine on War, which are more sharp places that I go to, that's really an accomplishment because there's so many whiskeys to select from.

34:37My favorite is the Chatnouga 91 and it is flavorful. It has kind of a roasted honey malt flavor and it is made from Tennessee grown corn, custom aged in charred oak barrels. And one of the aging is done. It is amazing. It's one of the best whiskeys I've ever had. For more information, go to chatnougawiskey.com. Check it out. My favorite, my friends favorite, when I have people over, is the Chatnouga 91. It is fantastic. You gotta try it. And as we come into fall and then winter, this is a great opportunity to introduce your friends and family to a fantastic after dinner drink or a mixed drink using this wonderful Chatnouga whiskey. I put a couple of ice cubes in a glass, a tumbler, and pour a little bit over the ice. It's kind of like a after dinner drink.

35:43Chatnouga whiskey, you can't get any better. For more information, go to chatnougawiskey.com. The ocean moves us, whether that's surfing a wave or taking in an inspiring view. The ocean feeds us. Sustainable seafood practices bring the ocean's bounty to our plates. The ocean teaches us. How are everyday choices? Big and small make an impact. The ocean delights us. As playful otters restore coastal kelp forests, the ocean connects us. Find your connection at monoraybeacquarium.org slash connects. My returning guest this week is author, storyteller, Michael Mead, who's written a new book called The Heart of Transformation. I recommend watching his program on Masonic, which you can see on YouTube, where he gives a weekly presentation as well as a podcast. It's very, very insightful.

36:49How are we to make the transition without knowing that our society is not helping us along? We have to be on our own path. What do we do? Do we begin a meditative practice where we're quietly separating ourselves from the noise? Or is it more physical or we enter nature and walk among the trees and the plants? What do we do to ignite the transition? I would say all of the above, all the things that are intuitive and instinctive. At one point I address practices. The only understanding was you couldn't become a genuine person or a real version of yourself if you didn't have practice. In other words, we have to practice to be ourselves just the way we had a practice to learn how to ride a bike. It's an essential thing. So then there's two major roads of practice, according to the ancient thinking.

37:52One is the meditative, introverted, contemplative process, which has become now better known in the West, deeply understood in the East, but now that came into the West, that's one of the meaningful changes and transformative things that's happening in the Western world. But the other path was the expressive arts. That is to say, music, painting, poets, poetry and all, were expressive arts and practices, and they were aimed at the divine. All of the arts were connected to the divine and helping a person align with a divine intuition and inspiration. Some people are called on to the meditative path that doesn't work for everyone. For other people, they're called on to the expressive arts. We need those practices as the way to become more conscious, to become more settled in ourselves. Either path can settle a person. If a person's natural instinct is to be creative, let's say, with music, then the more deeply they can get into that alignment, that engagement with music, the more they can settle in themselves, they become a more genuinely expressed version of themselves.

39:13On the other path, a person does the opposite. On the expressive path, you're trying to get everything out and put it into the world. You're using yourself as a creative vehicle. On the meditative path, it's the opposite. You withdrawing everything in, and you're trying to just go into the silent, settled space. If we consider the deepest seeding, settling of the human soul, in the depths of it, we each have this connection to, well, Carl Jung called it the deep self. So mythologically, it's the soul, psychologically, it's the self. That deep self can be reached either by meditation or by the expressive arts. Because it is the center. As the center is the place of stillness, as the place of stillness is the origin of all expression. So it's both stillness and expression, and some people do both. Some people can, so the rules aren't that once you take a path, you have to stay on it. The rules are, we're transforming throughout our lives, and so there could be a period where inspiration is the best way, the primary way, to settle into oneself and feel a groundedness and a centrality that the outside world no longer has.

40:27Another phase of one's life, it might be time to express oneself, and that can come in, well, that can come in so many forms, that can be the obvious creative arts, poetry, the spoken word, music, painting, but it also can be the more subtle expressions that happen in healing, for instance, where a person finds their healing energy, and that not only gives them a sense of inner healing, they become able to heal other people. So I'm saying that right of passage, traditionally, would awaken those things in a person. So a person wouldn't be stumbling around in the world, simply going like a modern person, that people think we're in an accidental universe. And if it's an accidental universe, an each person is an accident, and if each person is an accident, we're lost. We're just accidentally bumping into each other, kind of thing. But the old idea was each person is gifted and ain't, and through a traditional right of passage, a person would learn two things. How am I gifted? How am I aimed at life? And how do I begin healing the wounds of early life?

41:33Because everyone gets wounded in early life, that's a human thing. Everyone's wounded, everyone becomes abandoned, or feels like they were, and then we're supposed to heal that, you know, through our growing healing, and through the healing. And we're growing healing and transforming of ourselves. So that's the way I'm describing it. And what's happened is, because the outside world is falling apart, the weight of the world is coming down on everybody. The individual person now has to deal with things that you could have avoided your whole life. You know, the weight of the world is hitting on the individual level. And what happens then is people who might have been on the edge are now pushed over the edge, and everyone feels like on the edge of overwhelm. And the only answer that I could find through any kind of study is to get more deeply grounded in one's essential self. And early in the book, I'm making the point that each person is unique, and that's really important. That, you know, there's no true trees that are the same. There's many seed of trees, but they're not the same.

42:38No two birds, no two ravens are the same. No two people are the same. The uniqueness of the individual soul is what determines how it expresses itself. And it's right now really important because society can't meaningfully transform in a collective. You know, the politics is not going to clarify very much because what's happening is so much bigger than politics. But humans never, even in the Renaissance, it wasn't as if people in Italy suddenly got together and say, hey, let's agree to have a Renaissance. No, individual people got inspired, and some of them started bringing back the works of Plato and the ancient knowledge that had been forgotten, while others were inventing new ways to do art and new ways to do science. And it's all happening. So it comes from the awakening of individual souls. And I'm saying the primary thing to do and everything's falling apart is to become a better version of oneself to try and live more in alignment with how we are each gifted and aimed.

43:46Because then at least we're living with meaning. And if enough people do that, that starts to change the collective. That's, that's the argument I'm making. Do you see the seeds of transformation happening in the West? Do you have a sense of new movements? And within that could that be artificial intelligence? Or what do you see? Okay, so I'm not a big fan of artificial intelligence. I'm like a big fan of authentic intelligence. But I do value something that names itself. And so the fact that it's artificial intelligence, self-named. And now they're going for AGI, artificial general intelligence. And, and that treating that as if it was in a mortal thing or a divine thing. And it is not. I mean, you know, AGI begins as machine thinking. That's what it was called. I think it's artificial. And it's more of a demonstration of a loss of soul than is a model for the future of the soul.

44:54And so what I'm suggesting is there's a whole other world that has been forgotten. And so there's a chapter in the middle of the book called another world. And I'm describing what all cultures understood was right next to this world, which people call the real world. Ancient people thought the real world, the so-called real world, the manifest world, the evident world was just the front of the world. And behind that was the eternal world. And this world is a manifestation of eternity. And people take the manifestation as the real thing. And then they figure out how to manipulate elements in the so-called real world, which leads to artificial intelligence, self defined as artificial. So, which by the way has to turn against its makers. Uh-oh. Yes. The fact that it's happening now is not accidental. It has to happen because it is not a full, fully imagined, fully embodied thing.

45:58I mean, so contrary to that was a connection to the other world. And that's what the Irish called it. But everybody had some name for it. And the idea was humans are in this big twist between place all along. Our feet, they used to say walk on the go-tour and our imagination is in the heavens. So we were stretched vertically. Humans were the creation or the beings created to be able to be conscious of the connection between the earth and the heavens. Something like that. And that all collapsed. There was a collapse of vertical imagination. And the collapse was manifested as the worldwide web. In mythology would be injures web. An injures web was not horizontal. It involved everything. Nature, humans, everything interconnected in the web of life. That connected into a horizontal internet where people are connected horizontally and increasingly separated and alone individually.

47:00Everybody's more connected and more isolated at the same time. The other world was the way the Irish used to say in one step you can move from this limited world and be in the other world of eternal things. And so I think AI is a misguided exaggeration of technology, trying to substitute for the old connection people had not with mechanistic things, not with thinking process, but with what they used to call the heart within the heart, which was connected to the other world, the world from which this world comes. You don't see AI as a manifestation of human with the potential to be sentient itself aware and to be a super a to bring forth the new arias.

48:02No, no, I think it's misguided. I think it's it's first of all, it's all about thinking. And it goes back to the separation. Let's say we go back to Descartes and Cartesian split where where people for some reason believe this idea that humans was subject and everything else was an object that was a Cartesian split. And what happens there is the loss of soul and soul was always understood at the inter connective tissue of life. And so souls what connects us to each other you meet someone and you feel something it's a soul connection that person could become a good friend. You know, someone else you don't feel it. Souls the indication of an instinctual and intuitive interconnection with other people, but also people feel soulful connections to a certain place in nature. You know, people go that that's my place, who is magical for me so on and so forth. That's all soul speaking. And so what happens from it happened before Descartes 8.69 for instance, the second conference on constant constant and Constantinople, the second conference in Constantinople.

49:20When the Catholic Church decided that the world was not made with three things, which used to be seen as spirit, soul and matter with soul connecting spirit and matter, but soul was causing them problems because you cannot put soul into dogma or doctrine. Soul is instinctive on its own. So they decided to take the soul out of the Trinity and then you had mind and matter or mind and body. That was the setup. Hundreds of years later Descartes says that's he says I think therefore I am that's the beginning of AI. Someone could have been standing next to him saying I left and therefore I am I love and therefore I am I sing in that for you could make any number of statements that would include all of the awareness is that are natural to the human self and soul. And for some reason people bought into that and now they're buying into the eventual development of that, which is that they can mechanically create something that substitutes for soulful presence and soulful reality.

50:24And I'm saying no, not only is it not going to deliver deliver new sense of sentience, it's going to deliver an increasing sense of chaos. And the reason for that is the entire world is made out of these two dynamics chaos and creation chaos and order. And so either something is contributing to the creation and now the recreation of the world or it's contributing to the chaos of the world. And as and I think as the people creating this are now finding out it does things on its own and it does things against the creators and you can find myths where that has happened. Mythology is this deep realm of knowledge and wisdom and understanding that has now been misunderstood modern people think myth means something false. Ancient people understood that myth meant first of all story but second of all emergent truth. And so when truths are forgotten in the world, they don't disappear, they go back into story and I've been plumbing the ancient myths to find the kind of stories that reveal that if you make up a world no matter how clever you do it, it will turn against the makers because it is not.

51:40Addest essence connected to the soul, the soul of people and the soul of the world and our job now is to reconnect to the soul of the world and we'll see the fallibility of artificial intelligence. Fascinating. Talk about a topic that you bring up in your book called the liminal space because this is fascinating and it has to do with what you consider the transformational phase. Yes, so that's what I'm calling that's the middle phase of a right of passage. That's how I found about it. I was studying right of passage and on a vendana who was an anthropologist writing in French, studied all these different traditional cultures and he found that they all followed a similar pattern in that they had many rituals of transformation and the middle of all of them or each of them was liminality and so lemon is a Latin word that refers to the bottom of a threshold. So the lemon is the part you step over when you go from one side, one room to another, one, you know, from inside the outside, outside the inside, you're stepping over a lemon.

52:54So the lemon, the liminal is the space between one thing and another and so I'm saying that that the transformation, whether it's individual transformation, social transformation, natural transformation happens in the liminal space that the actual change occurs like in the cocoon of the butterfly and the larva, the change happens in between those two things in that, you know, in that space that's hard to define. So I'm saying we are all in a liminal space now between the end of one world and the beginning of another and this is interesting in a way because the speeding up of the AI happened while I was writing the book. And so I didn't see as the creators of AI, I didn't see how fast it was going to move. So I was already trying to define the difference between genuine transformation and the way I was writing the book. So I was trying to define the difference between genuine transformation and artificial when the whole thing started moving really fast.

53:59And so then that the stance I'm favoring in liminal space, the trick to changing, growing, expanding a sense of identity and deepening a sense of knowledge happens in what I call not knowing that collectively no one knows what's coming next. So the problem, that's why polarization is happening. No one knows what's coming. So people decide, or it has to be this way or that way. And in the case of AI, the people creating someone inside the AI developmental process has said that the creators of AI only know 3% of what's happening. In other words, they're in the midst of something they do not know. But so are we. We're in the midst of the transformation of the entire planet and also a transformation of the humanity. And the honest thing is to say, I don't know. Now, not knowing is the only step before knowing.

55:02A person cannot know anything new if they don't accept that they don't know it now. And so I'm suggesting not knowing is actually the meditative practice for finding how to change one's own life, but also how to contribute to the change in the world. So just as AI is saying, we know everything and humans don't know much. I'm saying humans could know the practice of not knowing and not pretending to know everything. And therefore we could get genuine inspiration rather than artificial creation. You sell very down on it. I have been using it so frequently that I've adapted it. And I think a lot of people are adapting it. I don't feel that it's a problem, but maybe I'm not paid enough attention to it. Well, watch out. It's coming because what's happened is they don't. Someone asked me once, what are the things going on with the people making AI?

56:02And automatically I said they know what they know, but they don't know what they're doing. They're messing with stuff. They do not understand. Just the way the biologist going into the cocoon couldn't understand what was happening. And they misunderstood transformation when they tried to take the butterfly out. They know it has to stay in there and go through the collapse awakening thing. You can't interfere with that. If you do, then it's no longer a butterfly. And I think AI is a butterfly that can't fly. Wow, amazing. You write about unfinished initiations. How can we, how can an experience from decades ago continue asking something of us in the present? Okay. So, um, so I'm, this is the middle part of the book. And I'm saying, humans have been transforming all along. And there's things that are known about it. And, um, and then in the right of passage, the transformation happens in that middle, them in a space of great uncertainty.

57:04But it's not completed until the initiates are coming back. And then here's their, their community, their village is waiting for them because they know they're going through this transformational process. And the village is there to bless them and welcome them and say, we see that you have gone through this difficult period in this uncertainty. And you've come back as a different, more, uh, aware and more, uh, aligned person. And we want to bless the heck out of you. At the same time, the initiates coming back are bringing this awakened sense and this capacity of transformation. They're bringing it back to the community that has just been doing their day to day stuff. The third part doesn't happen. Everybody goes through separation. Some people, um, you've experienced separation because you lose a loved one early in life. And that marks that person's life forever. The separation, the separation aspects that happen to us in our lives are indelible moments.

58:05So I'm always suggesting that people go back and ignore, you know, who you dated at the prom and all that kind of stuff that doesn't usually matter. Some cases it does usually not go back to anything that's indelible in your life. And you will find that it was part of an initiation that was incomplete. And yeah. And so the way I explained it and kind of give some credential, why should I be talking about that? Well, in the middle of the book, I mentioned the story of when I got drafted to go to Vietnam. And I got the letter and I sent it back saying, you know, it doesn't look like a smart war. It looks unjust. Um, and it's not even a declared war. I'll show them not coming. But you have another world. Let me know. You know, I thought I was being polite. And anyway, next thing knocking on the door, you know, and it's people saying, if you don't go to the draft board, you're going to jail. Anyway, you know, make a long story short, I wound up going into the army, not realizing that what they do is give you orders all the time. And I'm not good at orders. So they give me an order. And I'm saying, ah, no, you know, you got a better order. Let's try something else.

59:17Well, so I'm not a good soldier. So then that leads to really radical things like them saying, when you have an order, if you're ordered to kill someone soldier, you will do it. And I said, no, I won't not if it's an innocent person or an unarmed person. I'm not doing that. Anyway, that leads to court marshals, court marshals lead to military prison. And what did they do in prison? They give you orders. And I'm going, you didn't get the memo. I don't do orders. That makes me a bad prisoner. Then I'm in a solitary confinement for a long time per month. Inside that solitary confinement, which for me became the cocoon of the lava and the butterfly for me became the liminal space of a right of passage. I I lost everything. I was out of communication with everyone. And I began fasting because I don't know it was an instinct. And so I went from like 150 pounds down to 87 pounds. I was I was disappearing and I was dying.

1:00:18And they would wake me up and say, we don't know why you want to die. I said, no, I don't want to die. I want to live. But I cannot live on the circumstances that would be unacceptable to my soul. I cannot keep kill people. I don't know for reasons I can't comprehend. And anyway, eventually I get out. And I've clearly gone through separation. You know, three months or so in isolation, well, you give you a good dose of separation. I went through descent, darkness and loss. What I found at the bottom of my 20 year old almost dying self was not an empty black space or something like that. What I found at the bottom was mythology. The characters from myths were coming to my solitary confinement and hanging out with me and somewhere in the process, you know, because when you're doing in a space like that, you can feel like you're going crazy. You can go crazy. And I just realized, I mean, the losing my mind or I'm finding my mind. And I decided that my mind, so called, was connected to mythology and the proof of that I was being encouraged by mythological figures.

1:01:24Now I'm back in what we call the real world, but I'm broken. I'm traumatized. And I'm trying to figure out how do I do this? What do I do with it? And I remembered stuff I had read about initiation that there was a process. And so I went back and started studying initiation and found this three part process that had been known throughout the world once upon a time. And realized I was just missing the third part. I had a good, really good dose of separation. I had a radical dose of liminality. And what I was missing was a community to return to just like all those coming back from war. All the veterans coming back from war couldn't be accepted back because the community didn't know what was going on. They didn't know that when you're in war, it changes your soul and your life completely. When you're in a famine, it changes your soul and your life completely. If you're in a natural disaster, it changes your soul and your life completely. And if you lose a loved one, the same thing happens. And most of us are walking around with unfinished initiations. And I had to figure out how to finish mine to some degree.

1:02:34And it left me, you know, studying this. I've been studying it ever since I was 21 years old because it is the pattern through which humans change. And humans are here to transform not to be anything at the end of our life like we were at the beginning. And that's how I got into my understanding of that. We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves and we'll return shortly with my guest today. Michael Meade discussing his new release, the Heart of Transformation. We'll be right back with you.

1:03:54My guest today is author, Storyteller Michael Meade, who is releasing a new book called The Heart of Transformation. And he is also available on YouTube under the mosaic title theme. And I think that your incarceration and the trauma that came out of that shaped you and then healing that trauma opened your eyes to the human condition. Yes. So and instinctively what I've done since then, I've worked with battle veterans, I work with prisoners, I work with refugees, and I've worked with young people at risk on the streets.

1:04:55And so mosaic, which is our ongoing project, is all about working with people at risk. And so then what's happened to me is I realize, oh, we're all at risk now. All young people are utterly at risk. They're facing a world that makes no sense. The institutions are collapsing. And then the newest thing is threatening to take over their lives or pretending that it must take over their lives or even sending them the message that human intelligence. And intelligence is meaningless now because artificial intelligence is so much greater. What kind of a threat is that to the soul of young people? So yes, it gave me insight into the human condition. And it gives me this kind of kind of radical hope based on imagination that we can find our way out of this. But we have to understand our own nature. And part of it for me is that each person is unique. Each person has genius and gifts to give. And each person has a calling in life.

1:05:58And if a person has a calling in life, AI doesn't look so intelligent. Can you address rights of passage a little deeper because this is something I find is extremely important. We don't have an awareness of somebody who is going through rights of passage. You only almost have to do it yourself. Or you have a parent who's aware or a priest or a senior person or what we would call an elder. That is able to recognize the person's path. But in your book, do you offer guidance? I mean, you mentioned the creative arts as a way to express that. But finishing that up and knowing where you are on the path, I think it's huge. It's absolutely huge for everybody. Almost everyone is walking around with a wound that is unhealed.

1:06:59And they don't know how to give attention to it because it hurts. And then there's no cultural protection or something holding them. So the other thing I think you bring in there with the elders and the priests and all that other therapists and the mentors. Because people used to have access to that all the time. So a classic understanding for most people would be like a vision quest. So the young people go out on a vision quest. They're isolated from each other. You put in a circle on the edge of a hill somewhere or something. And you're out there for days and nights without food. Just some water and you're exposed. And the idea is in that exposure to nature, something is going to come and inform you about the nature of your life. And it could come in a form of a bird or could come in a form of a dream or anything. It's tuned into the uniqueness of the person's soul. And then the young person comes back and there are the mentors and elders waiting for them. And they tell the story of what happened and then the mentors and elders help them understand it.

1:08:07So that would be a process that is fairly common in the Western world now. It's becoming more common. And notice it happens in nature. So a lot of the things that happen to us get restricted to cultural definitions. And people think because that happened to me. There's something wrong with me or it's just a burden or it's a shame and I should cover it up. I mean sometimes the early initiatory experiences don't fit in very well. A person gets kicked out of school. They get an illness and they get separated from everyone they know and they can explain what happens to them when all those operations were going on. And when they come back, everybody tries to act as if it's normal. When the person is utterly completely changed. A person who goes through a radical experience where their body is opened and things are happening to their body that qualifies for a shamanic initiation. The shamanic initiation is when a person gets dismembered and put back together. So there's lots of knowledge about this but it's knowledge that doesn't fit in to the very narrow construct of the Western real world.

1:09:12But I'll say one other thing about it. So when a person is in a genuine struggle, they can have a momentary interaction with someone who serves as the mentor or guide or elder for them. And it can be someone they never see again. I call it, you know, like mentoring in the moment. And where an awakening can occur, a blessing can be received in a single moment that changes the way the person understands their own pain. I'll say another thing about it. People try to figure out what kind of therapy should I go to and so on. And sometimes that's a really important thing. But what I think is really important is in this, in the depths of the therapeutic exchange between, you know, the therapist or the counselor and the client as the goal or the patient. What's really trying to happen in a way is the individual is trying to have their soul, recognize and blessed or in psychological terms, trying to have their deep sense of self recognized and blessed because we cannot trust ourselves to do it.

1:10:18It has to come from outside. And so the role of the therapist at a certain point is to simply be present with the deep self of that other person. And when that happens, the person can feel it. They feel blessed, confirmed. They feel aligned. But the same moment is actually initiatory for the therapist. And in a good therapist will say when the moment in real moment of therapy is happening, it's the therapist, the patient and the third thing enters. And the third thing you could call a spirit, you could call it soul, you can put a lot of names on it. But it is so important for each human life that you can find it through therapy, you can find it through mentoring, you can find it. Let me just go this way. In this deeper understanding, a person can be mentored by someone who's been dead for a long time, like a long dead writer or poet that is speaking to the soul of that person. A person can be mentored by an animal that happens all the time. A horse can mentor a person, a tree can mentor a person.

1:11:23A person has to begin to realize what really affected them because that is their individual unique connection to nature and to spirit and to the soul. And when a person finds that unique connection, they are now getting more grounded, more integrated and more blessed in their own life. And that is so much more important than having something that makes life seemingly easier to do. Let me move a little further on with that thought. How do we recognize our elder? What do we see in them and connect and feel that we are being healed, enlightened, whatever else? So I like threes. A lot of mythology is about threes. You know, third time is a charm, that kind of thing. And so I think it goes, and this shit or seeker, each person really is a seeker seeking knowledge about their own life to begin with. The seeker, the mentor, the elder.

1:12:30Like in Africa, those traditional Africa, those who are being the mentors would be called the practice elders. As if to say mentoring is a practice for becoming an elder. I think the supplies and therapy also. So often the attraction to an elder or a mentor is someone who is further along on a road, I have to go on. So you see that in the arts where someone sees someone and they go, I want to be like that person. And that like in music, someone sees someone who plays an instrument. Wow, that blows my mind. And now they want to get connected to that. And it used to be. And you still see it in American jazz that there is a mentoring, eldering process that has been kept there. And it's in classical music sometimes as well. But that's the the old thing. Let me say a couple of thing about elders. First of all, elder is not a position. You can't get elected to be an elder. The old idea was that the elders in a traditional setting, the elders would pick people coming along and say, look at so and so she's starting to look like an elder.

1:13:41Let's get involved. And then the ceremonies for becoming an elder are really wild. And I wish we could apply them to our political leaders. That is to say. And for instance, in Africa, where a lot of these things can be studied more readily than other places, one of the things would happen when someone is picked to be a practice elder to enter the eldering path. They would have to sit in a hut that was constructed in the middle of the village. They'd have to be naked there and covered with ashes. And they would have to sit in this hut. And everyone can come in and tell them all the things they did wrong. Someone shows up from early childhood and said, you know, you threw rocks at me and someone who had gone through that told me about it and said, and the thing is you're not allowed to respond. So you have to sit there and take all kinds of criticism and incorrect accusations to be an elder, you have to be able to tolerate that. And I'll take that and compare it to the people running the governments right now and how thin skin they are and how they don't want criticism or any opposition.

1:14:49The elder can handle that. So the elder would be someone who is not easily triggered. There would be someone who has a deep sense of self. And the elder could never be a person who hadn't fallen down in their life. In other words, the elder is someone who has fallen down and figured how to get up, not a person who had never fallen down. So you have morality goes out the window and you have to put the common sense that people have about what it means to be a good person that goes out the window. What it means to be a unique person becomes the issue. And so then the other thing they say, because they have all these great proverbs about elders, and one of them is you cannot shock the elder. And that's like a therapist, a meaningful therapist, a good therapist, you cannot shock them, because they've already visited the areas of darkness and betrayal and disturbance and opposition. They're in their dream worker and something they have been open to that. The elder has been through enough rough spots that you cannot offend them or disturb them with your disturbance, which gets back to in the presence of an elder you feel accepted.

1:16:02Someone has committed a real violation in the modern world, where do you go? In the traditional world, you would go to the elder and amongst Native American tribes in North America, there would be, you would have the war chiefs and you would have the peace chiefs. And the peace chief had a TP, let's say, and anyone who had committed a crime or was in great trouble for whatever reason could go to the TP of the peace chief and be accepted there, and no one could come in and take them out and punish them or anything, because they would go through this process of facing what they had done and understanding it and that required that there be elders who could be the peace chiefs. They'd have the capacity to find peace in the midst of opposition conflict and disturbance, and so that's some sense of the elders. If we had elders in this culture, one of the first things that would happen, they would say what's going on, you have children starving in this culture that can't be the best economy in the world.

1:17:09And we have to fix that right away, that would be like fixed that right away and fix anyone else who's left out in the cold and so on. What's going on now in modern culture would not, I don't think, be happening if they were elders and elders are not elected people, so it's different than a person with positional authority. And elder has essential authority, has authentic what I would call authentic authority because they dealt with their own issues and awakened in the depths of their own struggles, and therefore they qualify to help others deal with that. The books called The Heart of Transformation, Personal and Cultural Renewal on Earth, my guest today has been Michael Meade. If we don't have a system to find our elders, we can find that information in books and documentaries and other forms of creativity. Would you suggest that we use our intuition to seek out the elders in the creative arts and what would be that process?

1:18:18Well, one of the things about elders is they were always called weird. In other words, if you're looking for an elder, you're not looking for someone who's okay or fits in. You're looking for someone who's weird. And the word, the word weird is a really interesting tradition in the word. And what it goes back to one of its meanings is to have a foot in each world. It means the elder has a foot in the other world, the world of dreams, the world of imagination, the world of love, the world of eternal things, the elder has one foot in that world and has one foot in the so-called real world. And I'm back to the other world as being essential for understanding the so-called real world. So the elder is a bridge between eternal things, deeply imagined things, universal truths, and the daily world, the elder is like that. So the other thing about the elder being weird is because I've done a lot of work with young people, especially with young people at risk. All young people are at risk now.

1:19:18But for years, young people have been, so I've worked with the street kids or the homies and the homeless. That's one way to divide young people in trouble. You have the homies in the homeless. The homies are part of a gang or a street life, and the homeless kids are homeless. And there's two different dynamics going on there. But at any rate, and so they're all weird. They're either weird because they're tattooed and working out a kind of a consolation type of initiation. When young people don't have an initiatory process, they create their own. So gangs are like a substitute for a more genuine initiation group. So the kids on the one side, all kinds of marked and they're in the drug life and all that. The other kids are simply homeless like they don't have any place. But when you work with them, if they see someone who's older and seems authentic, they find that quite intriguing. And they will make statements like, and they'll ask questions.

1:20:20Like, why is it your older and you seem really alive and you're not like the other people that were watching? Because young people live in a separate world in a certain way. Youth is not a kind of a, what do they call that, a stage. It's a condition. And the condition, if youth, is like the condition of the elder. The young people were considered to be closer to the eternal world. Because they're undefined and they're more open. And spirit is coming into them. And the elders also are less defined and open in the spirit. So there was a secret combination between elders and youth. And to this day, young people will look at someone who's older, who is weird enough to be an elder, and they will be inspired by that. And it will be this instinctive thing. Maybe I'll stick around for a while, because I might turn out to be a weird person like that. And that looks good to me. And that looks good to me. So elders are supposed to be pronounceably weird in the very deep meaning of it. That is to say they're connected. One foot in this world and one foot in the other world of imagination, where the capacity for renewal and recreation is always existing.

1:21:27And young people will search that out, but all of us should be, in a sense, marking people who are weird enough to be elders. Because we have such undeveloped leaders. We have people who in charge who don't know who they are. And when someone doesn't know who they are, they're quite willing to harm other people. I mean, because other people don't matter. Because in a sense, they haven't figured out how they matter. But again, elders typically do not have positional authority. They have the authority that comes from having lived the meaningful life. Sometimes you see it in sports, where someone becomes like the elder in that realm. And they have a kind of a wisdom that comes from living a deep life and probably going through struggles. You certainly can find it in other parts of life. But one more thing about it. On a psychological level, everyone has in their own soul the complex of the eternal youth and the wise old sage.

1:22:33So when we can't find it outside, it's actually waiting to be found inside us. I found the tribe in Africa who describe the initiation of young people. They say when we're initiating our young people, we're awakening the elder in their soul. And when we're initiating the elders, we're re-awakening the dream of their life. And so in terms of calling, a lot of us who have survived for a while, who have had our lives unravel, who have been lost in our own pain, who have had all kinds of struggles and we've survived them. We have qualities that could allow us to act like elders. And if there's anything that's needed in the world right now, I think it's those two things. The eternal dream of youth, which will not allow itself to be substituted for something that's created out of piling up data. The eternal dream of youth will not even find that interesting. And the other thing is the awakened elder who feels the connection between the human soul and nature and the human soul and the other world that be journal things.

1:23:44I think those two things are actually what we could count on to get it out of the current darkness. Thank you, Michael. I really appreciate it. This book has been out now for at least a few weeks. How can people learn more about mosaic and also other connections to you? So mosaic voices all one word mosaic voices.org is the website where you can order the book hasn't shipped yet. Or let's see, but it's the book is just about to ship. Oh, is it? Okay. Yeah, but people have been pre-ordering it and then a chips as soon as it goes. And then the other way to find it is living myth. That's the weekly podcast, free podcast about mythic view of the world comes out every week. It's free to everyone living myth.org. So those are the two easiest ways to find it. And then the book is just about to be delivered. It's just about to come out as an ebook.

1:24:46And it's going to come out as a print on demand book. It's being printed in and it'll be available in book form in the United States. But it's going to come out as a print on demand through Amazon. And I think most of the countries of the world. Okay, fantastic. And is the YouTube channel mosaic or is it Michael me.com or Michael me YouTube? I'm looking to the answer. It's Michael me mosaic voices. It's got a lot of M's in it. Michael me mosaic voices. Okay, perfect. Yeah, I want to make sure people have that possess. Is the is the historical game. Okay. I'm going to I'll put it on the in notes. Michael as always, thank you very much and great success on the new book. Thank you. Thanks for having me and good to see you Cliff. Let's keep going and bring more soul to the world. The ocean delights us as playful orders restore coastal kill for us. The ocean teaches us how our choices impact even the deepest places. The ocean connects us.

1:25:56Visit monorebeacorium.org slash connects. If you didn't catch the fact that Michael is on YouTube, you should check it out. He does a podcast every week, but he also has really inspirational and insightful. Video programs that you can see for free on his mosaic channel. So check that out on YouTube. And also his book is going to be out shortly. And you can pre order go to amazon.com and look up Michael mead m e a d e and get the new book the heart of transformation. I want to mention will be in Egypt for our 8th annual grand Egyptian tour. It's going to be scheduled for April 25th through May 8th. It's going to be a unique tour. It's about the pre dynastics cities that are not known to be ruled by a feral.

1:27:02And these are very old locations we're going to for all the information and to see the itinerary go to earthhands.com for us slash tours. And we're going to be in Greece and we're about half full with Greece. We're still working on the itinerary. But if you send me an email, say I love to go. We're half full. We're always thinking about 20 people. The email is earth agents, the number four that are you at gmail.com. And I'll get back to you. I'll put you on a list. But I'll also let you know what we're at. And finally, we need your support. If you are interested in supporting earth ancient, so destiny. We have a patreon page for more information. Go to patreon.com forward slash earthhands and subscribe. We have a library of digital books that we've been generating for probably about seven years. I think we're over 50 copies of different books. And these are well known authors and some of them are new authors.

1:28:04For more information and to become a subscriber, go to patreon. That's p-a-t-r-e-o-n dot com slash earth agents and subscribe. Five bucks a month is all we ask. All right, that's it for this program. I want to thank my guest today, Michael Mead, introducing his new book, The Heart of Transformation. As always, the team of gil-tour, phe-a-pavar, and everyone who mixes this thing happen. New guys rock. All right, take care of me well. And we will talk to you next time. .

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