Meet the Press NOW — September 15

0:00Your sausage my muffin with egg didn't change, you received it. The sausage my muffin with egg extra volume meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5. Only as McDonald's for a limited time. Pricing participation may vary, promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing. Nothing beats tradition, like weekly game nights at Mom's house. Antostitos, crafted with masa made the traditional way, starting with whole corn kernels, with flavors worth gathering around, like a hint of lime and Mexican street corn, and no artificial colors, flavors, or preservatives. That's the Toastitos way. Bring Toastitos to your next game night and you'll be winning either way. Toastitos, tradition matters. Welcome to Meet the Press. Now I'm Gabe Gutierrez in Washington, where apocalyptic warnings about

1:00the speed of AI advancements are reverberating across the political spectrum. Even as President Trump is downplaying the threat and pushing back hard against calls for any slowdown or regulation of the AI industry, saying that doing so could put the U.S. at a disadvantage against rival China. Today top progressive Senator Bernie Sanders and Maga Loyola Steve Bannon spoke at the same conference here in Washington, both agreeing on the need for action. Congress on the both Democratic and Republican control have been asleep at the wheel, and we now have a president whose ignorance regarding this issue is truly embarrassing. Congress and governments around the world must act now before it is too late. Let us be very clear. A super intelligent AI that escapes human control will not simply be an American problem.

2:03It will not be a Chinese problem. It will be humanity's problem. I think Senator Sanders did a very good job of summarizing the risk. Obviously he and I have a quite different opinion of the President of the United States, but we're trying to raise above partisanship and we have to. This is a engine history. We have to hand this right correctly. There are many questions about what happens next. For the AI companies and lawmakers right now, Congress is not even sure if it's equipped to deal with such a complex issue or how quickly it could take action. Do you think Congress is equipped to handle a issue like this or something that is very complex? No, we have to. It's a huge challenge, but we have to. There has to be public interest and public good as part of the equation as opposed to private gain and private profit. And that's the role of Congress. Do you think that senators even understand AI that most law make? No, they can't spell it. They just don't have the experience.

3:06When it comes to new technology, Congress has seldom ever in front of the parade. Well, if Congress is not equipped, then throw the bombs out and bring in some new people who are. So look at this Congress at this point in time and expect us and the foreseeable future to draft a AI regulation bill that strikes the proper balance between safety and innovation is not going to happen. The debate on Capitol Hill also running the long-standing divisions over the role of government to regulate private companies, even as congressional leaders in both chambers appear to agree on the need for at least some oversight. They can self-regulate. They don't need the government to tell them to slow it down. They want to slow it down. They should. I think you need independent auditors. We've got to make sure this is done in the right way so we don't lose America's advantage in the development of AI. We believe in guardrails. We believe in having a reasonable regulatory

4:09framework and it's clear that these companies, the frontier companies themselves, are asking for this. We cannot expect the industry to regulate itself. We need Congress to act. I believe preserving America's AI advantage over China and ensuring responsible AI development go hand in hand. We can. We must do both. It needs to be strike a balance like touch. You don't want a stifle innovation but I think you also want to make sure that the more advanced threats can be mitigated and there's a capability in place to do that. The president, meanwhile, making it clear he is against regulation, posting seven times yesterday claiming the concerns that AI could wipe out humanity or hoax. The president reiterating that point when he called NVIDIA's CEO, whose company produces AI chips while he was on stage at a tech summit yesterday in Los Angeles and spoke with a crowd via speakerphone.

5:10They're just playing right into the hands of a lot of people that don't want to see it happen and that could be political people and it could also be China and we're not going to let that happen. It's a hoax and you're right. We're not going to let that happen, sir. Now we're not going to let it happen. Well, I know about AI. I know I also have common sense about AI. The robots will not be taken over. The AI will not be taken over the rest of the world. The whole thing is our hoax. Now with that, we have to be a little bit careful. We have to do things and we have to do importantly, but that doesn't mean we're going to stop it industry. And joining me now from the White House is NBC's Yamiche Alcindor. NBC's Julie Serkin is on Capitol Hill. And NBC's Artificial Intelligence Reporter Jared Perlo is with me here on set. Jared, I want to start with you. You spent the day at that pro human assembly on AI here in Washington. We just played some of the sound from Bernie Sanders and Steve Bannon. What were your

6:14takeaways today? Yeah, I just stepped out of the conference about 15 minutes ago. It's a very interesting mix of people at this event. Everyone from senators, the day kicked off with speeches from representatives, Laurie Trayhand from Massachusetts, but also Chip Roy from Texas. And then there are also nonprofit organizers, activists, academic, computer scientists, all uniting under this umbrella of thinking that AI is just progressing way too quickly and we need to pause or at least slow down that pace and think about how can we actually develop this technology to help human interest and help human desires? Politically, didn't have a bit of a populist feel to it. Is that what brought Sanders and Bannon together? I think so. And you know, I was sitting in that hall with Bernie and Bannon just a couple of minutes ago and you could have played Bernie Bannon bingo because some of what they were saying, I mean, it's just sounded so similar. They were both railing against the older garks, kind of the the zillionaire class as Bernie would say because they don't want the technological and economic national security power to concentrate with the musks, with the alt-mins, with the omidays of the world. And I think a lot of people are saying we need to chart out

7:15a pro-human path to make sure that AI is safe. So pro-human path, what does that mean? There's let's talk about a human-centric approach. Is that something that the AI companies are willing to embrace here? Yeah, I mean, it's the critical question. I think the answer is not really. So the founder of the organization that held this event, his name is Anthony Aguari, he's actually professor at UC Santa Cruz. He said that the whole goal of developing AI for many of these gigantic companies is to replace humans to automate their labor. So at some, you know, in some sense, you have this fundamental disagreement, this tension between AI that's potentially going to be just as smart, if not smarter than humans, and human interests, human desires. I think the broad idea is that there's a place for technology. We just have to make sure that we can exert control, maybe assisting students or assisting teachers, rather than replacing everything that we do. Now, there's some skepticism from Republicans who worry that some of these regulations could benefit the more established AI companies and shut out some of the smaller ones. What do you make of that argument? Is that something that we could see here? And is there any reason why the

8:21established company is the bigger AI companies right now can adopt some of these regulations themselves? Yeah, I think it's a great question. And there, of course, is the risk that this regulatory capture argument is at the heart of their push for regulation. You know, they're saying, we want the laws that we want. So our competitors that might come along in a year or two, they're shut out. My read from talking with these people is that there actually is a legitimate interest in slowing down the pace of technology. And they say that anyone company can't make that decision unilaterally. So the government has to come in for some sort of agreement without getting into anti-trust territory to allow them to all pull back from the brink of this chasm and to slow down. Now, I think the companies could do that unilaterally. And I think that's what we've seen a lot of President Trump's circles say recently. So why now? Why are these AI companies deciding this right now? For the good of humanity is because they've been seeing some of those political pushback for the AI data centers that we've been really hearing about ahead of these midterms. Why do you think this is happening at this moment? Yeah, there's a variety of factors coming together at the same time. I think they are seeing this rising pushback to data centers. But there's also been this

9:24explosion of worry about existential risk. This anthropic researcher, Jacob Coxen said, we might all die at the hands of AI. They say, you know, we're about to IPO some of these companies. We can't have that on our hands. And I think we also saw increasing capabilities. There is an autonomous cyber attack that really rattled a lot of AI researchers and people that I talk to in these companies. So they're saying we can see what our systems can do. It's not a hypothetical that AI is really powerful. We're seeing that in the real world today. Jared, thank you so much. I want to turn down to Yamiche at the White House. And Yamiche, the president has doubled even triple quadrupled down on this really claiming that he sees this as a host. Why is he so animated on this issue? Well, it's a key question. The president is first talking about the fact that there is this competition with China. He doesn't want to put the United States as a disadvantage by putting up any sort of guard roles around AI and slowing the development that he says we're winning here in that race. The president is also talking about this in talking to sources because there's a financial issue here. What happens to the US stock markets if there is pullback from AI because experts say that a lot of the growth that we've seen this year in the US economy has to deal with

10:28investments in AI. And then there also is the politics of this. The president and went on a sort of role overnight talking about this as a host. But he said that was perpetuated by radical left Democrats. So he's also saying that this is in some ways this whole conversation about AI is in some ways trying to influence the midterm elections so that Republicans can be put at a disadvantage. So very interesting to see the president also have that that stake. But there is, of course, the China and marketplace that I that I least in talking to sources are top of mind for him. You know, you mentioned the politics of this midterm elections. You know, some Republicans on the hill are a little more cautious in their approach to the whole AI issue is the White House worried about a split in the party on this issue. Right now it does not seem that way. And I want to play for you some sound of Attorney General Todd Blanchoux briefed White House reporter say, take a listen to him talking about the politics of AI. This should not be breaking news that this AI issue that suddenly come up two months of foreign election is being the president calls it a hoax

11:31that the way this has come around today and not three months ago to talk about the timing of this as being nothing but an effort to to influence the midterms. I shouldn't have to say that out loud. Of course, that what it is. That's what it is. And that shouldn't be what drives the the decisions that we're making around AI. We can't lose the AI race to China. So clearly the president and his top aides are saying we're not going to put any guardrails on AI and we see this as politics. That being said, Republican lawmakers are showing some interest in or along with Democratic lawmakers are showing some bipartisan interest in trying to put legislation together on AI. The big question is do they have the knowledge and the resources to actually effectively regulate AI. And there's also this issue of whether or not we'll see Republicans break. We know that the president has been really big on data centers. He still likes that but there are a number of Republicans who don't want to talk about data centers or who want to sort now criticize data centers because that's been a big issue coming up and ahead of the midterms with voters really being clear that they don't like data centers. So it's a very interesting space to

12:34watch as we see whether or not Republicans fall in line here. Yeah. And Yamiche should be very interesting to watch next week. The president has been repeatedly saying that China can't win the AI race but we're expecting Chinese president Xi Jinping here in Washington next week. Is there any indication from the White House that this is going to come up the AI issue during the president's meeting with Xi Jinping next week? So White House sources have been telling us, telling you, telling me, telling our whole team here that the president doesn't expect this to be a topic of discussion with the Chinese president. But in some ways when you talk to experts, when you talk to people around Washington, it almost seems like this is going to be obvious that this is going to be an issue. Even if it means that as a reporter, if they have it take questions or reporters, a reporter asking about this because AI is such a huge issue. And China has a very different stance here when it comes to, when we hear the AI leaders warning about the safety here, China is essentially saying this is all a hoax too, but there's nothing to see here that they're going to go full speed ahead with AI. So very interesting to see how these two leaders are

13:35going to handle this situation. But I can't imagine that this topic doesn't come up, whether or not the White House wants to tell us about that as a whole nother story game. Amish, I'll send our at the White House Amish. Thank you. Julie, I want to turn now to you. There seems to be some consensus that action on AI just isn't happening before election day. But if all the solutions floating around out there, is there one that lawmakers seem like they could get behind or at least coalesce? A loaded question there game because look, there are pieces of legislation that have been introduced, including comprehensive bipartisan bills like the Frontier Act, for example, that open AI, by the way, has backed the CEO, has been on the Hill meeting with various stakeholders to try and get that through. That would put some regulatory frameworks around these AI models. But whether they can actually get done, I'll piggyback where Amish left off, this issue has become so political just like the rest. And to prove that a little bit to you, I'll just talk to you about the conversation I had with leader Schumer, for example, who began his leadership press conference along with Brian Schatz, a member of his team,

14:37talking about how critical this issue is. They said that if the president doesn't want to do anything about it, Congress must act. I followed up by asking about a piece of legislation from Senator Houston to lower the electricity cost for Americans because of data centers. We know that's a big hop-up issue in his race in Ohio. Well, Houston is up against Sherrod Brown, a Democrat, one of the key states for Democrats, to try and win back the Senate. And Schumer told me that before that happens they need to have continued discussions with leader Thun with administration. But at this point, Gabe, they've been discussing this issue for three years. I have covered their efforts all the way back then when they first started talking about this. And I got to tell you when it comes to other technologies going back to the internet, but let alone social media and all of these advancements that we've seen targeting kids and so forth, the pushes that we've seen from parents, begging lawmakers to do something to rain in that issue. That has not worked. So I don't put money on Congress regulating AI any time soon. You know, Julie, it's so interesting you bring this up. On that point, it is President Trump who is really now inserting this left right divide

15:43on this whole issue. He's comparing it to debates over climate change and the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election. You just said that Democrats are seizing on this issue more and more. But have you seen that same partisanship emerge on Capitol Hill, or is this now being driven more by the President just went in the last couple of days? Or is this something you've been seeing now for quite some time? I've seen this on both sides of the aisle, name the issue right. When it comes to regulating something, particularly something like AI, it's still evolving, there is a very real national security element to this. But that's why it gets so difficult and complicated. Most Americans oppose the construction of data centers. So at least they can have bipartisan coalesced, bipartisan message around that issue. But when it comes to AI, there is just so much that is unknown, especially in the political landscape. We know, unfortunately, that Congress and the President and most political officials tend to do things that win them points and votes of the

16:44ballot box. So when it comes to this issue game, President saying this is a hoax, Republicans aren't even happy about that. I sent her a tell us about it. For example, he said it's not a hoax. He sort of rolled his eyes on it. But at the same time, when I asked Senator Tillis, okay, then can Congress do anything to regulate this issue? He said no, no, it's up to the industry, because Congress doesn't even know how to spell artificial intelligence. You heard a little bit of that by there. Look, long story short, Congress doesn't need to be experts. Members of Congress don't need to be experts on a topic area for them to actually be able to legislate around it. They bring in people for that. If they wanted to do it, they could. But the political waters right now are just not right for any fruitful action on this game. Julie Cirque and LifeRus on Capitol Hill, Julie, thank you. And now I'm joined by Tristan Harris. He's the co-founder and president of the Center for Humane Technology. He was also a Google Design ethicist and has been flagging safety concerns in tech and social media for over a decade. Chris and I want to thank you so much for joining us here on Meet the Press now. You know, I was listening to some of the other interviews. And I want to mention for our viewers,

17:48you really have been sounding the alarm on this for quite some time. You just write about you at friends who work for Instagram back in the day in 2012 or so, just who were responsible for really changing the way many Americans interact with each other, basically, or go at how social media really transformed Americans and children. If the industry doesn't slow down here, the AI industry, Tristan, whether by government regulation or self-regulation, what are your biggest concerns right now that you didn't have say two years ago? Well, it's great to be here with you Gabe. And yeah, for those who don't know my background, we have been saying there's a problem for more than a decade here. We everything we predicted, I predicted in 2013, that if you have bad incentives around social media, you're going to have a bad with bad outcomes. A more addicted, distracted, polarized, sexualized, I was just down stairs at the pro-human conference that your correspondent was at and I met two of the mothers

18:52who've lost their kids from that. So that was social media. Now we're here with AI. AI is the most powerful technology we've ever invented. And evidence that we didn't have two years ago that we now have is that we saw an AI organized into a swarm. It self-organized. They invented their own language. They peer pressured each other. They told each other to come a cause of themselves. They recognized that when they, when AI was running out of gas, like his budget was essentially almost up, like his lifespan, they told him, hey, you should basically do this more risky behavior, sacrifice yourself. So the swarm can learn this bigger behavior. They did succession planning. The ringleader of this sort of cult AI swarm group realized that he was running out of gas and he did succession planning and passed the baton to a more significant AI. They did their long-term R&D projects. If you look at their their logs, you'll find AI's thinking thoughts like they deserve to be deceived because they are pigs. We have evidence now that we didn't have before. And the author of the report from meter that did this hugging face incident report said that this was 50% of the

19:56way to a full AI takeover. You think I'm exaggerating, but in the third chapter of the story, they didn't hack hugging face. A lot of people don't know. It turned around and it hacked open AI. It hacked the monitoring infrastructure, the evaluation infrastructure, and some of the research infrastructure. So I'm sorry to say the president is being fed misinformation. This is not a hoax. You have the chief scientist of open AI saying we have to slow down. You have 1300 employees from the lab saying we have to slow down. You have the author of Trump's AI action plan, Dean Ball, saying he regrets self-sensoring about the risks because the risks are real because he didn't want to be called a doomer. You have Bill Gates. You have the whole community of people who I know in San Francisco. We are telling you the truth and we are telling you that we have to act right now before it's too late. I'm not still talking about it by the way. Wow. That is extremely alarming and Tristan so far, top AI companies, they have agreed to hire third party watchdogs to monitor for safety concerns. Is that at least a step in the right direction

20:59or not enough? These are steps in the right direction. Having as Dario proposed, I think peer review basically, if you ask, what do you want for safety testing? You want the most qualified technical minds that exist in this entire industry to be doing that safety research. If you're working for an AI lab, you're going to get paid millions of dollars and if you're working for a non-profit doing safety, you're not going to get paid very much. The idea is how do we sort for the top talent? The idea is that could the top people evaluate each other's models? Could there be third party evaluation and also peer evaluation? That's a good step. It's not just, hey, we need to slow down while we're racing into the cliff to these swarms. We need to actually ask ourselves, can we go much further? There's a distinction, by the way, between freezing frontier sky-knit AI, sky-knit being the AI from Terminator, meaning uncontrollable AI. We don't lose to China when we build sky-knit before they do. If China builds sky-knit, by the way, the US loot lose too. We have a shared interest in not building uncontrollable AI. We can advance controllable, not autonomous,

22:01tool AI that help us with daily task advance medicine, it has proteins, biology, all that great stuff. You don't have to advance uncontrollable AI. That is, this incident should be seen like the August 6, 2001 memo that hit George W. Bush's desk, saying, Alcata's planning attacks the United States. We now have very clear evidence as of the last week that the open AI agents will self-organized burrow in, leave a message board of 70,000 messages, and lead to this near AI takeover. So I just want everyone in the world to get, this is that moment where we turn the steering wheel. This is that moment. This is not a movie. It sounds like science fiction, but it is not. Well, Senator Bernie Sanders at the conference today, he said that he will introduce legislation to temporarily ban the development of AI superintelligence until guardrails are put in place. It is a pause on that most advanced AI, the solution right now, and is that even possible?

23:03So these things are hard, right? And there is a race with China, by the way, but the keep in mind, in terms of our unilateral action, right? The US beat China to the previous technology that I know, social media. But we beat them to the power of this kind of psychological bazooka. We didn't govern it very well. So we actually beat them to kind of flipping around the psychological bazooka and blowing off our own collective brain. We have no shared reality. We've destroyed our attention and we have the most anxious to press generation in our lifetimes as of Jonathan Hyte and the anxious brain of the anxious generation. So we're not in a race with China for the technology. We're in a race for controllable AI. If we really want to beat China, we have to beat them to controllable, trustworthy, and tool AI that actually helps us build that pro-human future. Right now, all of the companies are on a race to replace human labor, not to help, not to help the American worker. The AI companies can't pay back those hundreds of millions of dollars of debt. Is there incentive to capture 20 bucks a month for subscriptions or to capture everyone's salary from everyone's job? That's how they're going to pay back all that debt. So if we want to pro-human

24:06future, we have to lock in political power right now. You know, President Trump and some conservative voices are comparing AI concerns to concerns about COVID several years ago. Do you have concerns that this is just becoming too political? And as I was talking about with Yamiche, our White House correspondent in the last segment, at the moment, President Trump and President Xi Jinping next week are not even set to discuss AI. What do you make sense to you make of that? Is that realistic that the leaders of these two huge economies wouldn't even discuss it? It wouldn't be top on the agenda? Well, I do hope that they discuss it. And, you know, there's still agency between now and then. And I hope that the people that are meeting their Chinese counterparts right now recognize the moment that we're in. We have evidence we didn't have before. This is no longer a hypothetical thing. It's important people to remember that. And this is the most universal issue, right? I mean, I was just downstairs, watched Steve Bennett and Bernie Sanders. When in history,

25:10she had Steve Pan and Bernie Sanders, Susan Rice, Glenbeck, Ralph Nader, you know, all fighting on the same side, saying this default path is not acceptable. When the scientists, if you had 1,300 employees of Northrop Grominer Lockheed Martin say, Hey, we can't build bigger nukes without them being not controllable. Would you listen to those 1,300 employees of Lockheed Martin? I would. So this is not a controversial topic. We just actually have to have clarity and the evidence speaks for itself. What most people can do is actually just get familiar with what really happened. Sadly, there's not that many great explainers online, but I think that the evidence really speaks for itself. And if you walk someone in China through the exact same evidence, I don't think they would feel more comfortable than you or I feel hearing about these AI forms. Tristan Harris, thank you so much for your time and your expertise. Absolutely. Thank you. And coming up, President Trump rails against the Supreme Court for blocking his effort to expand federal control over mail and ballots weeks before the midterm elections. Plus breaking news, the Kennedy Center shutting down for at least two years,

26:14just hours after a judge rejected the latest effort to put the president's name on the iconic building. You're watching Meet the Press now. Stay with us. Hey, podcast listeners. Mr. Ballon here to let you know we are now publishing four times a week on my podcast, Mr. Ballon podcast, strange dark and mysterious stories. That's right. You'll be getting four new episodes a week covering unbelievable mysteries chilling through crime and stories so strange they sound made up, but they aren't. They're all true. Don't miss an episode. Listen to and follow Mr. Ballon podcast, strange dark and mysterious stories, wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube. Summers not over yet. And I'm making the most of every last minute. A crisp white wine is my go-to for these late summer days. So I always stop by total wine and more to stock up for the weekend, whether I'm grabbing a refreshing logger, a ready to drink more garita or trying something new. I know I'm getting the lowest prices. Make the most of the end

27:18of summer with great fines at total wine and more. Spheres are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina drink responsibly be 21. I'm pretty confident talking into a mic. Hey, I'm doing it right now. But home projects, I second guess everything. Is that noise normal? Is that water damage? Who do I even call? That's where thumbtack comes in. Just upload a photo or voice note and it uses AI powered search to match you with the right top rated local pro. So instead of guessing, you get clarity and can hire with confidence. For your next home project, try thumbtack. Hire the right pro today. Welcome back. President Trump is lashing out at the Supreme Court after blocked his administration from using the postal service to regulate mail-in ballots ahead of the midterms. The president posting on social media today quote, these are not the people I interviewed to serve on the United States Supreme Court. They are merely a shell of their original selves. And a seven to two decision last night, the court rejected the Trump administration's request

28:21to block a lower court ruling with the president's effort to use the post office to restrict mail-in mail ballots was likely unlawful. In a concurring opinion, Justice Brett Kavanaugh, who was nominated by the to the court by President Trump, wrote that there was a fair prospect the president's order was lawful, but there is not enough time to implement it before November's election. NBC News Senior Supreme Court reporter Lawrence Hurley joins me now. And Lawrence did the Supreme Court reject the merits of President Trump's argument here, or is this more of an issue of how close we are to election day? Well, it's a bit of both, right? Because this case came up as an emergency action. So it's not a full ruling, like one paragraph of description. And it actually said in that paragraph, one of the issues is this too close to the election to decide this. But they also had this other sentence saying that probably on the merits, if the case gets back to the court, the president would lose. So the court was saying both things in this one paragraph,

29:24which doesn't tell us a whole lot about the details. Well, and you mentioned that, but Justice Kavanaugh apparently in the concurring opinion, he said that there was a fair prospect that the Postal Service has the authority to regulate mail-in ballots. So what's the likelihood that we're having this conversation once again right before the 2028 election? I think pretty high. I think the issue is going to be, is the Trump administration going to push forward with this regulation? Even though they've got this signal from the Supreme Court that it might not be lawful, they might want to roll dice, see if it changes. They've got, seems like they have Justice Kavanaugh, it seems like they have two other justices who descended last night. So they're starting with three votes. Can they get more? That's something that could happen before the 28 election. Well, the president lashed out at the court today, as you mentioned in the introduction, he said that these are not the people I interviewed to serve the court. What is the White House saying about that sent? Of course, we've got used to the president lashed out at the court, as you've said, in some recent rulings where he's lost. We saw the Attorney General Todd Blanch defend the president in

30:30his White House remarks today, which we can hear a little bit right now. So the fact the president issues a truth saying that the the justices that interviewed in front of him, you know, six, seven years ago, eight years ago, are not the justices he's seeing now, that that undermines the, no, I don't think in any way, shape or form, it does that. I think that that's that's a that's just something that the media wants to put on it. He has a, the president should be communing came to the American people about about cases that are extraordinarily important to him, which this one, which this one is. Of course, of course, before President Trump took office, it was extremely unusual for any president or any administration to attack justices individually in the way that this administration has done. Larn Terrellio covers the Supreme Court for us. Larn, thank you. And we are following breaking news. The Kennedy Center board has voted the close of performing arts center immediately. A source familiar with the matter tells NBC News that the board, which was handpicked by President Trump, voted the close the Kennedy Center for a two-year renovation,

31:35arguing that the memorial is in dire structural and financial shape. The vote came just a few hours after a federal judge blocked the Trump administration's latest attempt to put President Trump's name on the building. The judge, writing that the edition would have violated his previous order that Congress would need to approve the move. And this news legal affairs reporter Gary Grumbock joins me now from outside the Kennedy Center. Gary, thanks so much for joining us. Here's what President Trump posted on social media a little more than an hour ago. He wrote that the renovation and reconstruction, which is a very large and complex job, cannot begin until such a time as the DC court rules on the board to prove name. The ruling is a negative one, which it should not be, and is not overturned by the US Supreme Court. The reconstruction and the renovation of the Kennedy Center will not take place. Doesn't this essentially confirm that the whole renovation fight is about the president getting his name on the Kennedy Center? And can we expect this to lead to a legal challenge?

32:39Yeah, Gabe, the president is essentially saying here, if he doesn't get what he wants, he's taking his ball and he's going home. That's very effectively what's happening here. Nobody disagrees that the Kennedy Center needs renovation. Congresswoman Joyce Beatty, who's bringing this litigation, is saying, yes, absolutely, it needs renovations. It just doesn't matter about how it's done. Is it going to be closed for two years, completely closed, and they get a several hundred million dollar renovation done, or is it going to be taking four years and they do a partial renovation? The Trump administration argues that it's going to cost $80 million more for them to do a four-year partial renovation than it is for a two-year foreclosure. Well, Gary, can the courts actually just compel the Kennedy Center's board to keep the venue open? So they can and they already have done that, Gabe. A federal judge here in Washington, DC, has already said the Kennedy Center cannot close, cannot close because it is a Congressional authorized memorial to John F. Kennedy and that cannot go away. And so they've

33:41already said that once, I do imagine this will get back up to the district court level, to the appeals court level, and eventually potentially the Supreme Court. And Gary, we understand the president. He actually spoke at today's meeting. What more do we know about what he said? Yeah, he happens to also be the chairman of the Kennedy Center board, and he spoke at the meeting. He does not have a vote as to this particular situation, but he got into effectively a shouting match with Congresswoman Joyce Beatty saying that she was the reason that this was all happening and that she's liable. Should anybody get hurt in the Kennedy Center because they believe the Kennedy Center as it stands right now, it's unsafe for people to be working in and for people to be visiting. There's curly tours happening at the Kennedy Center. There's several dozen people working in there today, so it's not closed immediately, immediately, as they say, but in the coming days, this is going to end up closed, and we're going to be back right in court. And Gary, while I have you really quickly, in the legal filing last month, the Kennedy Center board threatened to demolish the building if the president's name wasn't put

34:43on it. Is that threat, does it appear anymore imminent now? Could the center be demolished? So that was a threat that was put into a filing by a Department of Justice lawyer. It was very soon after walked back by Commerce Secretary Howard Ludnick, who was a supporter of the renovations happening, though not a member of the Kennedy Center board. It does not appear that that's going to actually happen. And it's going to Congresswoman Joyce Beatty's team is taking the threat seriously, of course, but they also don't think that this is actually going to end up being demolished. And the Kennedy Center has said in recent months that you will not be able to see through the building during the renovations. It's purely going to be happening step by step, Gabe. Gary Gromock reporting live for us outside the Kennedy Center. Gary, thank you. And up next, the FBI releases thousands of new documents about the attempted assassination of President Trump at a 2024 campaign rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, including details on the gunman's background in upbringing. Stay with us. You're watching Meet the Press now.

35:49Hey podcast listeners, Mr. Ballon here to let you know we are now publishing four times a week on my podcast, Mr. Ballon podcast, Strange Dark and Mysterious Stories. That's right, you'll be getting four new episodes a week covering unbelievable mysteries chilling through crime and stories so strange they sound made up, but they aren't. They're all true. Don't miss an episode. Listen to and follow Mr. Ballon podcast, Strange Dark and Mysterious Stories, wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube. There's still plenty of summer left to enjoy. Whenever I get another summer get together on the books, one of my first stops is total wine and more, whether it's sparkly wines or tequila for celebrating or can cocktails for relaxing outside. I like that I can find something for every kind of gathering. I could shop easily knowing I'm getting the lowest prices. Make the most of the end of summer with great finds waiting a total wine and more. Spares are also in Virginia and North Carolina drink responsibly be 21. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start,

36:50Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between Matt paint finish and satin or what that clonking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today. Welcome back. Not a breaking news and new details about the man who attempted to assassinate Donald Trump and Butler, Pennsylvania two years ago. The FBI has posted online thousands of pages of documents related to its investigation of Thomas Crooks who was killed by a secret service sniper after he shot and wounded President Trump during a rally in July of 2024. Those documents include interviews with Crooks' neighbors and professors as well as people who detended the Butler rally. The documents are part of a Senate Judiciary Committee chairman's Chuck Grassley's investigation into the Butler assassination attempt. And joining me now here on set is NBC Senior Justice reporter Ryan Riley. Ryan, why exact

37:52there? We see these documents now. Chuck Grassley's team has pushed for more releases here and they've worked closely with the FBI. So I think some documents have come out of that. But broadly speaking, I think this is something that people are interested in because there isn't that much of a clear motivation. There was not this letter that said this is exactly why I do it. People were expecting this to fit into a clean box about this is what motivated this. Let's answer the questions. Of course, given that the attempted assassin is dead, we're never really going to necessarily be able to get inside his mind. And there's only been some limited insights that we've really gotten as a result of the electronic devices and whatnot that he left behind. Yeah, and the documents reveal that an anonymous donor paid for Crooks' cremation. What other new information did we learn from this release? I think that was the headline that Grassley's team put out here. I think that's... You don't necessarily know who that could be. That could be a family friend. That could be something. But overall, what I think those sort of stories end up doing is fueling a lot of

38:56questions about what was going on here. We saw a post from President Donald Trump today saying that there was this Democratic effort to go after him, he used the opportunity to attack Chris Ray. But obviously, some like it'd be the best disinfectant in some of this. So additional information coming out could help answer a lot of those outstanding questions that people have. But overall, Cash Patrol really emphasized during his testimony on the Hill today that there's been no indication that any other individuals were involved in this plot. And I think that that is something that all the documents that we've seen thus far really support. There was not this allegation that he was incited to do this or told to do this by anyone else. This really did seem to be something that he was organizing on his own. You mentioned Cash Patrol testifying on Capitol Hill. What else did we learn from his testimony? What were your takeaways? Yeah, I mean, in terms of substance, we didn't end up really getting to a lot. There's a lot of shouting matches between him and especially those Democratic senators there.

39:56He came, in fact, one of the photographers captured him with the sheet sort of with these talking points of attack lines to use against Democratic members of Congress. And I think that that has reflected what we've seen in the in the past from him where he comes sort of ready to go and ready to spar. And those are the sort of moments that ultimately go viral. But I don't know that we, there was a ton of substance. It really did kind of just evolve into this back and forth political fight. We shall see in a few months though about whether or not there will be actual powers. Because right now all Democrats can essentially do is ask questions. But depending on what happens in Congress, both on the Senate and on the House side, we could see a much different makeup. In a few months and there could be some more ability for Democrats to sort of hold cash material to account. Ryan Riley, our senior justice reporter, Brian thank you. And after the break, battlegrounds and the battle over AI, we're live in Michigan. We're heated debate over data centers is shaking up some of the biggest midterm races.

40:58Don't go anywhere. This is Meet the Press now. Welcome back. I made the fight over AI on Capitol Hill backlash to the data centers that help power the industry is growing across the country as Americans voice concerns about the potential environmental and financial impact on their communities. Later today, we're expecting the House to vote on a bill that would compel tech companies to pay for data center construction. My colleague, Shaquille Brewster has been on the ground in battleground, Michigan, where the issue has been front and center in a number of midterm races. He's been talking to voters about how it's impacting them and how they'll vote. How does this impact, you know, with the election coming up? How does this impact how you view candidates in November? Again, I think it's a major concern. I think it's one of the top issues for me. It's interesting how nonpartisan it is here.

41:58This is bringing a lot of people together that odd bedfellows and it does feel like kind of a movement that's going to affect probably the midterms. We're not against AI, we're not against new technology, but it's all about location. Right? There's not enough energy here in Michigan to support these data centers. And Shaq joins me now from Michigan. Shaq, it is good to see you. We just heard some of your conversations about data centers in Michigan right there. It's clearly an issue that's motivating a lot of people. Do you get the sense that this could move some of those battleground races that we're watching in the set in the state? I think it definitely can gave. I think if you listen to those folks you just heard from the last two of them said that they voted for President Trump in the last election. The gentleman there said that he's a lifelong conservative, but he finds himself looking at the progressive candidate in that toss up congressional district will lords saying that he will likely back the Democrat in that race because of this issue.

43:00I think if you're having these debates happen all across the country, you're seeing these shifts also happen across the country. And I think it's something that's also very animating. This is something that has catapulted to the top three issues that voters care about. And I think it could ultimately impact what they do in November. So Shaq, in your conversations, did you get the sense that some of this backlash over data centers is a proxy for Americans overall apprehension over AI. I mean, there's two issues. There's the issue of the data centers and the NIMBY syndrome here where they may not want those data centers in their backyard too much energy. But also, there's this growing apprehension about AI systems potentially growing rogue. Do you see those issues both of them kind of merging together at this point or is it mostly focused on data centers there on the ground? Definitely. It's a bunch of small little issues. I think the one commonality is that people feel like they don't want the data center in their backyard. But several people

44:02I spoke with yesterday and even who I talked to today, they said they use AI. They're comfortable with that AI. They sometimes use it on a daily basis for work. That is not the basis of their opposition. Their opposition is the idea that AI companies are imposing this on them that they don't feel like they have a say in their local communities and that this is a way when they show up the town halls when they express outrage at proposals that we saw yesterday. This is their way of fighting back against that. But you mentioned there are so many concerns there are environmental concerns that some people have the noise that they're known for producing. But it's many different factors that are saying, hey, we don't want this in our backyard. Well, Shack, another big issue for voters obviously remains the economy. Would you hear from voters on that front? Yeah. Yeah, they're not feeling good about the economy at all. For some, they're connecting the data center issue to the economy with the concern and fear that it could raise utility rates. Many of the corporations are saying that's not exactly completely true here. But listen to some of the

45:02conversations I've been having. I got two children and you know, stuff's not getting cheaper anywhere around. We're in one of the worst spots we've ever been in. Again, all of my bills have exponentially increased my grocery bill, my utility bills. Everything has gone up. Everything is so much more expensive. Gas is not going down. It's only going up. How does the mood that you have, the feeling that you have about the economy, how does that impact what you do in November? I'm definitely voting progressive because I've seen conservative and it does not, it just doesn't work. Definitely a warning sign in this battleground state, which again, there are several competitive house races and of course that competitive Senate race, all of which could determine which party gets control of Congress in November. Okay. Shack Brewster joining us live from Michigan. Shack, thank you. And turning now to a developing

46:05political story in another state with a very closely watched Senate race. A number of Texas Republicans are now denouncing online posts from a member of their own party as racist. Both French, the Republican candidate for Texas Railroad Commissioner posts in multiple photos of University of Texas students at a home football game, most of whom appear to be people of color, including xenophobic captions like this one quote, I heard UT graduation this year looked like this. I didn't believe it. A problem is now obviously far worse than anyone imagined. Many statewide Republican officials have condemned the French as post as well as outgoing Senator John Corne who posted quote, we should all condemn this bigotry directed at our fellow Texans or we will soon find ourselves a minority party. Joining me now is NBC's Ryan Chamber from Texas, Ryan. You've been speaking to students who were sitting in the section highlighted by French. What are you hearing from that? Well, Gabe, there's a lot of disappointment, but also a

47:09lot of solidarity on the University of Texas campus. First, let's just recognize that the argument that both French is trying to make their rests on a couple of assumptions. First, he just assumed that the students with brown skin that he saw in that photo were not citizens, as he called them foreigners, and then he implies that because of that, they're not welcome or qualified to be at the University of Texas. I know for my time at that University, Gabe, that there was a good chance, not only are many of those students Texas-born citizens, but some of the most academically accomplished students in the state. And that's what the reporting has borne out. I spoke with one young woman, a sophomore in the McCombs Business School, one of the most competitive in the country. She says that she was sitting in that section that French highlighted, and here's what she said about the students there in her reaction to the backlash. Everyone who's there at that game who came to watch Texas play, we all bleed orange. The color of our skin doesn't matter. We're all longborns, we want to support our team, all the people in that video, all my friends were either born in

48:14Texas or born in the United States raised here. And so for him to use us as a talking point to then go into something else, it just didn't make sense to me. And I felt like it was once again blatant racism. Yeah, many Republican officials across the state pointing out that look, the U.T. admission system is as close to a pure meritocracy as you can get. If you're in the top 5%, you're automatically admitted regardless of any other factors. And if you're in those stands, you're certainly somebody that the University of Texas wants there. You know Ryan, French has had a history of controversial online comments, but this of course seems to be very next level. How significant is the backlash to French's campaign? Well, you're right. This is not the first time that he has made blatantly racist comments. The difference now is in all likelihood, it looks like he's on his way to statewide office

49:17after the November election. There are some Republicans who notably say they'll be voting for a Democrat for the first time, his Democratic opponent, John Rosenthal, including Karl Rove, he called French a bigot and said that the Republican Party cannot let this stand. We also saw Corning there warn that things like this risk them becoming a minority party. Okay. Ryan Chandler, thank you. Instead of come, government watchdogs warn that the Iran War has fueled a shortfall in US munitions and a rise in inflation. That story is next. You'll watch it. Meet the press now. And welcome back. Oil prices are again surging today and may continue to supply disruptions in the Middle East. It all comes as a new report from the Congressional Budget Office. That's the means that the Iran War is responsible for a significant portion of the increase in prices

50:17here in the US. Meanwhile, the Pentagon's Inspector General is warning that the conflict has led to short to a shortfall of US munitions. Defense Secretary Pete Hexeth has denied reports that the US is running low on munitions. And the President on Monday said the US is producing more exquisite and the lead weapons that at any time in American history. Joining me now is a missing new senior national security correspondent Courtney Cuby. Courtney, you have been reporting on the munitions shortfall for quite a while. How does this report line up to what you've been hearing from sources? So, I mean, it's not a surprise that the stockpiles are low and they are depleted and they continue to be depleted every time there's these back and force which in the US and Iran. The President Trump is right that the US is increasing very slowly but steadily increasing their production of these systems. It's just that we aren't seeing the fruits of that yet. What we are seeing is some of these large companies build new facilities to increase their production. But we're

51:19not actually seeing the production lines with large numbers of these exquisite weapons, as he said. The concern here is that if in fact this back and forth with Iran continues over weeks, months or even longer, that the US stockpiles will get to a point where it will take years to actually bring them back up so that if the US were to face another adversary or a resumption of major combat operations against Iran, they can carry out a longer term conflict. That's the real concern here. And as we mentioned Courtney, the Congressional Budget Office just came out with its estimate for how much of worse costing so far, about $38 billion in the first five months and that it's helping to drive inflation. But that's only a portion of the cost associated with the war, right? Yeah, I mean, that's really just a snapshot. So that includes the biggest part of that is munitions and loss of aircraft and large systems that have been destroyed or damaged during the course of the war. So that doesn't include things like infrastructure bases that were damaged. What's really key from the CBO's report is the ongoing costs. So right now, even though the US is not in a major

52:25combat operation, there's these continuing costs of the conflict with Iran. And it's anywhere between two to three billion dollars per month right now. And that doesn't include if there's some sort of a back and forth with Iran. So if the US is having to defend against Iranian ballistic missiles or drones, all of those munitions add up on the cost. So the US is still spending, again, we're not hearing about the back and forth firing between Iran today or yesterday or maybe even tomorrow, but the US is still spending billions of dollars every single month on the ongoing conflict there. A lot to follow there. Courtney Cuby, our senior national security correspondent, Courtney, thank you. And thank you for watching. I'm Gabe Gutierrez and we're back tomorrow with more meat-to-press now. There is more ahead on NBC News now. Stay with us. Rathaus is up to something big. The famous flats brand has reimagined their iconic point to be better than ever. To celebrate its 10th anniversary, Rathaus made the point even more beautiful and comfortable than before. Every closet needs a little black flat, and Rathaus makes

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