Justice Served: The Yogurt Shop Murders, Pt. 2

0:00Hi everyone, it's Vanessa Richardson. Real quick before today's episode, I want to tell you about a show I host with forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels. It's called serial killers and murderous minds. Every Monday and Thursday, we take you deep into the psychology of the most chilling murderers and uncover what drives them to kill. Follow serial killers and murderous minds, available wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Crime House. Confessions were coerced. Convictions were overturned and for years, Amy Eliza, Sarah and Jennifer had no justice. Now the case that haunted Austin for decades may finally have its reckoning. Welcome to Crime House 24-7. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Twice a day every day, we bring you the best, most timely and gripping cases from across

1:02the entire Crime House network, all in one place, right here. And every Friday is justice served, where we follow a case all the way to the evidence, the arrests, and the verdict that finally delivered justice. This week we're opening the file on the yogurt shop murders, and this case is moving again. On September 2025, a major break blew the yogurt shop murders wide open. Decades after four girls were killed, and the investigation left Austin questioning everything it thought it knew. The city is watching closely. This community exists because of listeners like you. Want even more? Join Crime House Plus for every episode of Crime House 24-7, Add Free. Not only that, but you'll get complete access to an exclusive limited series every month, and early Add Free access to all Crime House shows and bonus episodes. Go to CrimeHousePlus.com or on Apple Podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the Crime House 24-7

2:02page. Now, Carter Roy brings us to the courtroom battles, the Nishandled Evidence, and the September 2025 break that changed everything. Hey, I ride almost here. Are you ready? Just grabbing my shoes. That's what you said 10 minutes ago. I just wrapped a video call, uploading this giant file on my tablet, looking at my watch goop and Nana's with the group chat, and of course, still lining up tonight's playlist on my phone. All at once? Yep, story of my life. That's why I switched to D-Mobile. They have the fastest 5G network. Okay, multitasker. I see you. Honestly, I never imagined I could do all this at once. It's awesome. Say no more, I'm totally switching. My post is taking way too long to upload. That's a sign you've got to get D-Mobile. So many reasons to join D-Mobile. Find yours at T-Mobile.com.

3:06Fastest based on analysis by Uglospeed Distant Intelligence, the data of National Speed School Results incorporating 5G download and upload speeds for the first half of 2026. A lot has changed since Bob's discount furniture opened its first store 35 years ago. Carphones have become cell phones, grunge band hits have become oldies, and you can order furniture online. But what hasn't changed is the way they do business. AKA, the Bob's Way. Doing things the Bob's Way means that when I shop at Bob's, I know I'll find the latest top rated styles like the Aspen sofa for just $3.99, bedrooms with great features like storage and charging, consumer reports recommended mattresses, and real marble dining sets, all at 90's-era prices, with financing to fit any budget and lightning fast shipping. Plus, Bob's still makes furniture shopping fun, with friendly associates and cafes full of free treats and ice cream. Want to see for yourself? Stop into your local Bob's store or shopmybobbs.com to celebrate 35 years of the best values in the

4:11furniture biz. Only at Bob's discount furniture. In December 1991, 14-age girls were brutally murdered in a frozen yogurt shop in Austin, Texas. 13-year-old Amy Ayers, 17-year-old Eliza Thomas, 15-year-old Sarah Harbison, and her older sister, 17-year-old Jennifer Harbison, were shot execution-style. Then their killers lit the store on fire to cover their tracks. In the following months, there was a desperate push to solve the case, but investigators didn't have any clues to go on. There were a few suspects that stood out at the time, in particular 14-age boys, but they were caught in a confusing web of accusations and denials. It all started when 16-year-old Maurice Pierce was arrested for carrying the same type of gun used in the murders.

5:13Although Maurice admitted it was his weapon, he insisted that his friend, 15-year-old forest well-born, was the real killer. Forest, it's when he was innocent, but then mentioned a joyride that involved two other boys. 17-year-old Michael Scott and 17-year-old Robert Springsteen. All four had been interrogated, but eventually let go. There was nothing tying them to the murders. Maurice's gun was suspicious, but it was also very common at the time. It could have just been a coincidence. After that, detectives hit one dead and after another. All of their promising leads dried up, and they were left with a case file filled with lots of questions and no answers. The families of the four victims desperately tried to keep attention on the case. They put up billboards around the city and offered a sizable reward, $25,000 that soon grew

6:13into $125,000, roughly $286,000 in today's money. But nothing worked. By the summer of 1993, about a year and a half after the murders, Austin officials scaled back the task force. A year after that, the lead detective John Jones got transferred to a different division. His superiors told him a change of scenery might be good for him. Detective Jones couldn't believe what he was hearing. The decision felt like a slap in the face. As if they were blaming him for letting the case go cold, but he'd been the one trying to push it forward, chasing down endless leads. He'd done everything by the books, unlike other investigators who'd been accused of coercing confessions out of suspects. But apparently none of that was good enough for the Austin PD. Once Jones left, nothing changed. The case remained on the shelf, aghoshed, haunting the department.

7:19It stayed that way until two years later in 1997, when a new detective came along. About three-year-old Paul Johnson had worked for the Austin Police Department for more than two decades and had solved some major cold cases. Now he was lending his skills to the yogurt shop murders. He opened the case file and took another look. There were more than 2,000 tips. He went through them one by one, reassessing everything. It didn't matter if detective Jones and his team had ruled someone out before. To Johnson, everyone was a suspect again. The process was slow and took years. But at some point, he got to the part about Maurice Pierce having the same type of 22 caliber gun that was used in the murders. Johnson felt like that was the strongest lead. Not only did Maurice have the same kind of weapon, but he'd also signed a written confession.

8:20According to Maurice, his friend, Forest Wellborn, had taken that gun and used it to kill the girls. Now back in 1991, there had been conflicting polygraph tests that cast doubts on Maurice's statements. Because of that, the initial investigators had ruled him and Forest out. But Detective Johnson wasn't so sure. He decided to question the former suspects for himself. Starting with Forest, the accused killer. By that point, Forest was in his early 20s, living about 6 hours northwest of Austin. When Detective Johnson came knocking, Forest must have felt like it was deja vu. He'd been down this road before. But like he told investigators in 1992, he swore he had nothing to do with the yogurt shop murders. He even took another polygraph test. And once again, he passed. That didn't deter Detective Johnson, who still believed the key to the case lay with the

9:24four boys who'd been teenagers at the time of the killings. So next, he went to interview 23-year-old Maurice Pierce. He lived about three hours north of Austin near Dallas. Maurice swore he was innocent. He said the story he told when he was 16 had all been a lie. Detective Johnson still didn't buy it. But before long, he got some news that had the potential to upend his entire theory. In January 1999, an Austin PD-Balistics expert learned that the 22 caliber gun Maurice had been arrested with, the one that caught Johnson's attention in the first place, did not match the gun used to shoot the girls. This burned the most important piece of evidence tying Maurice to the case. And yet, Johnson still thought he and his friends had something to do with it. About eight months later, and nearly eight years after the murders, a new task force

10:26was formed. This time, Detective Johnson was in charge. They were only concerned with a few leads, and prime among them were Maurice, Pierce, and Forest Willborn. Johnson wanted to talk to Maurice and Forest's friends, the ones who forest had mentioned went on a joy ride with them the day after the murders. Well, maybe they knew something they hadn't shared the first time around. Or maybe enough time had passed that they'd be willing to flip on their old high school friends. Johnson called Michael Scott first. He was 25 years old at that point, with a wife and stepdaughter, and they lived about a half hour from Austin in one of the next towns over. When Johnson asked Michael to come talk to them, Michael readily agreed. On September 9, 1999, Michael came into the Austin Police Station. The interview quickly turned into an interrogation. Investigators yelled in Michael's face.

11:26They carged and threatened him. At one point, a detective even held a gun to his head. Initially, Michael denied any involvement in the murders, but as the interrogation went on, he got one down. He was questioned and berated by officers for a total of 18 hours over four days. Until finally, he confessed. And what he told them would change not just his life, but the lives of his three former high school friends. If you've spent years trying every diet out there, only to end up feeling totally stuck. Listen up, this summer can actually be different. You deserve to feel amazing in your own skin, and weight loss by hers is here to help you finally shake things up. They now offer access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including

12:28both the Wagovi pen and the brand new Wagovi pill. Yes, a pill, which means you can lose up to 20% of your body weight when combined with diet and exercise. Absolutely no needles required. The entire process is 100% online, so you'll connect with a licensed medical provider right from your couch. There's no insurance necessary, and if prescribed, your treatment is delivered straight to your door. You can also get 24-7 care team messaging and in-app lifestyle and nutrition tips to back you up every single step of the way. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com-pave to get personalized affordable care that gets you. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S.com-sla-pave. Forhers.com-sla-pave. Weight loss by hers is not available in all 50 states. Wagovi is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS to get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wagovi clinical study information and restrictions visit forhers.com.

13:48Search before and after with Lester Holt to listen completely free or subscribe to

16:52the channel. He allegedly screamed at the girls to give in the rest, but when they didn't or couldn't, he shot two of them. Then according to Michael, Robert sexually assaulted one of these surviving girls and encouraged Michael to do the same. Michael said he faked it, then shot the victim on either Maurice's or Robert's orders. But even as he confessed, Michael's story kept changing. At first he hadn't mentioned Forrest at all. Then when a detective kept suggesting that Forrest had been in the getaway car, Michael added that to his account. At one point he told officers that he was scared he wasn't answering their questions the way they wanted him to. He said he didn't know if anything he was saying was even real. Later Michael's lawyers would accuse the police of feeding him details of the crime to bolster

17:56his confession. All of the police interrogations were videotaped, including the moment when a detective held a gun to Michael's head. But for some reason, the session where they took down Michael's official written statement was not videotaped. So we have no way of knowing what was said or not said. All we know is that on September 14th, 1999, Michael Scott signed a sworn statement confessing to the crime and naming three co-conspirators. Finally, after nearly eight years, the detectives thought they had solved the yogurt shop murders. Now they just needed the other three men to confess. A day later, two Austin PD detectives and an ATF federal agent flew to West Virginia where 24-year-old Robert Springsteen was currently living. The investigators treated Robert the same way they had Michael.

18:57The interrogation quickly escalated into an aggressive dressing down. They yelled at him often only inches away from his face. For four hours Robert insisted he was innocent. He'll finally he broke down and confessed. He admitted to shooting 13-year-old Amy Ayers with his 380 caliber gun. According to detectives, Robert then made a full statement that corroborated Michael's confession. However, the video camera malfunctioned so the entire session wasn't recorded and only about 85% of it was audible. Even throughout what was recorded, Robert appeared confused about what was happening. Like Michael, he said he didn't know if what he was saying was true or not, or whether he was fooling himself. Also like Michael, not all of Robert's confession matched the evidence. He never mentioned that the girls were bound and gagged.

20:00There was also confusion surrounding Amy, the only girl who had been shot twice. Robert said he'd shot her first with the 380 caliber gun, but it hadn't killed her so he shot her again with the 22 caliber. However, the medical examiner said the bullet from the 380 pistol had killed her. There was no clear explanation for the second shot. Despite the discrepancies, the investigators took the confession and ran with it. Then went straight back to Marie's and forest and confronted them with Michael and Robert statements. At one point, they even had Michael meet up with Forrest to pressure him to confess, but through it all, both Marie's and Forrest continued to deny any involvement. Detective Johnson and his team must have been frustrated. No matter how hard they pushed, they couldn't get either man to slip up, but they did have two similar confessions, full of details that had supposedly never been made public.

21:02That made them pretty confident that they had the right guys. Not everyone was so convinced. Detective John Jones, the lead investigator who had been kicked off the case in 1994, thought they had the wrong men. Confessions could be false. These ones sounded like the product of unethical pressure applied by the new team. Besides, there was no actual evidence that corroborated Robert and Michael's claims. One of the hair or fingerprint evidence collected from the scene was connected to any of the men. And even though Robert had confessed to sexually assaulting one of the girls, his DNA didn't match the sample taken. It was another unknown male. Even more damning, these weren't the first confessions the Austin PD had gotten. In fact, over the last eight years, there had been at least 50 separate admissions of guilt.

22:03Some of them had the same convincing details that supposedly were never made public. That included a convicted serial killer named Kenneth McDuff. He'd abducted and murdered an Austin woman from a car wash on December 29, 1991, just 23 days after the yogurt shop murders. He was caught, convicted and sentenced to death. Seven years later, on the day of his execution, he confessed to the yogurt shop murders too. However, Austin investigators ruled him out, claiming that some of his key details were incorrect. For the detectives on the newest task force, all of those other confessions were distractions. They were made by men seeking infamy, nothing more than that. But they believed these latest admissions were the real deal. And even though they only had statements from two of the four suspects, they felt they

23:05had enough to move forward. On October 6, 1999, police officers across the state of Texas went out in a coordinated raid and arrested all four men on charges of capital murder. The men's families were in an uproar. To them, it seemed like a witch hunt. Michael, Robert, Maurice and Forest had all been ruled out back in 1992. So why were detectives coming after them again? Yes, all four had some run-ins with the law as teenagers, but by that point, they were all in their mid-20s and were leading relatively stable lives with jobs and partners. They hadn't committed any violent crimes. And when it became clear that detectives were suspicious of them, none of them had gone on the run. According to Robert and Michael's families, both men had learning disabilities that caused them to have poor memory and made them susceptible to persuasion.

24:08They believed the authorities had taken advantage of them and coerced them into saying what they did. But none of that seemed to matter. A grand jury indicted Robert, Michael and Maurice for the murders, and the district attorney declared that he would seek the death penalty for Michael and Robert. Since Maurice had been a juvenile at the time, he could only receive a life sentence. The only one who got off the easiest since he was just the getaway driver, but securing those convictions wouldn't be so easy. By the spring of 2000, the case against the four men was encountering some obstacles. Two grand juries had failed to indict forest, so charges were dismissed against him. In May, a ballistics report was publicly released. It revealed the gun discovered on Maurice back in December 1991 probably wasn't the murder weapon. And later, it came out that Detective Johnson, head of the New Task Force, had no net information

25:13for more than a year. After learning this, members of the grand jury who had indicted Robert, Michael and Maurice, grew concerned. They felt they had been forced into a rushed judgment and hadn't been given all the facts. Then, images of a detective holding a gun to Michael's head during his interrogation came out in a pretrial motion that raised the concern level even higher, with some people questioning whether the confession had been coerced. Matters only got worse in September 2000 when Detective Hector Palanco came back into the spotlight. He was the officer who had been accused of coercing a confession out of his suspect and kicked off the original task force back in 1992. Now, he was accused of doing the same thing on another one of his cases. That cast doubt over the statement he'd initially gotten out of Maurice Pierce in 1992.

26:16And then the final nail in the coffin, before their trial started, both Michael Scott and Robert Springsteen recanted their confessions. They claimed they'd been forced into giving false statements. After years of telling the police what they wanted to hear, they were done cooperating. Now, they were going to fight to prove their innocence. Tozy Season is upon us. That means chilly sunrises, slow afternoons on the couch and oversized sweaters. Bambas makes your comfy fall staples, so you can make the most out of one of the best seasons of the year. Whether you're heading out or staying in, Bambas has you covered. Their new suede moccasins are perfect for fall, with cushy souls and water-resistant suede. And when you need extra support, I immediately reach for their compression sock collection.

27:17Whether a total game changer for travel days or long hours on my feet, fall weather can be fickle. But Bambas makes socks that handle it all. For more marino wool blends, to sweat wicking sport socks for race training. Plus their underwear and tees are buttery, breathable and fit. Just right. It really is the comfy first layer you can find. And the best part? For every item you purchase, Bambas donates an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchase equals one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting. Head over to bambas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's b-o-m-b-a-s dot com slash audio code audio at checkout. Fall is a vibe. So what's yours? Do you go wild? Or get a little nostalgic. Do you like to cozy up indoors or kick it outdoors?

28:21Whatever you fall for, get shoes that get you. We've got the trend. You bring the vibes. DSW, let us surprise you. Trying to lose weight on a GLP1, getting the nutrients you need doesn't have to be complicated. That's where groons comes in. Some convenient daily pack gives you greens plus 20 plus vitamins and minerals in a low-carb gummy that's easy to take wherever you go. No guesswork, no hassle. Just a little bear that tastes great. Save up to 52% off with code podcast at groons.co. That's code podcast at GRUNS.co. On September 1999, 25-year-old Michael Scott confessed to his involvement in the yogurt-shop murders. He also named three alleged co-conspirators, Robert Springsteen, Maurice Pierce, and Forest Wellborn.

29:22All four men were arrested in October 1999. Soon after, Michael, Robert and Maurice were indicted on murder charges, Forest was set free after two grand juries failed to indict him. The wrench was thrown into the proceedings late in the year 2000 when Michael and Robert recanted their confessions, and they claimed they'd been coerced into giving false statements. But even then, prosecutors moved forward with their trials. They believed the videotape sessions of Michael and Robert's confessions would be enough to persuade a jury. In 2001, 26-year-old Robert took the stand. He pleaded not guilty to the murder of 13-year-old Amy Ayers. Prosecutors had only charged him with Amy's killing. That way, if they lost, they could try Robert again for one of the other girls' murders. The prosecution relied heavily on the confessions that he and Michael had made. They were compelling, and awful for a jury to hear.

30:25Meanwhile, the defense placed the blame elsewhere. They wanted to enter evidence that the serial killer Kenneth McDuff had been responsible for the murders. They said a map found in his car showed directions that would have placed him within three blocks of the shop, and they found a witness who said that she'd seen McDuff at the mall that night. The same one Amy and Sarah had been at. But the judge ruled it all out as hearsay and declared it couldn't be admitted. The jury deliberated for 13 hours. Then they came back with her decision. 26-year-old Robert Springsteen was guilty. He was sentenced to death, although that was later reduced to life in prison. A year later, 27-year-old Michael Scott had his trial. It went a lot like Roberts. There was no physical evidence tying Michael to Amy's murder, only the confessions that he and Robert had made.

31:26Even though both men had recanted, the jury saw that as a desperate move to avoid punishment. And so Michael was also convicted and given life in prison. Maurice Pierce might have faced the same fate, but the only thing authorities had against him were Michael and Roberts recanted confessions. The jury didn't feel that was enough, so in 2003 the charges against him were dismissed. He got to walk free like forest before him. Michael and Robert hoped that they would get to do the same one day. Because the prosecution hadn't called them to testify at each other's trial, the state had essentially violated Michael and Roberts' rights to cross-examine all witnesses, which meant they were both able to appeal their convictions. In 2007, six years after Robert's trial and five years after Michael's both men got a win, an appeals court agreed with their arguments that they should have been able to

32:31cross-examine each other about their statements. Since they hadn't been given that opportunity, they deserved retrials. Before they even got to that point, prosecutors ran new DNA tests on samples from Amy's body. They hoped that with newer technology, they could find a definitive match that would bolster their case, especially since they had no physical evidence. The last thing they wanted was to go into a retrial and lose. But those tests didn't show what they hoped for. The new DNA tests were definitive. They just didn't match any of the four suspects. With that new evidence, a judge ordered 35-year-old Michael and 34-year-old Robert released on bond, and ultimately, both convictions were overturned on the basis that their trials hadn't followed due process. Austin authorities disagreed with the decision.

33:33They were adamant that the four men were still guilty. The only concession they would give was that maybe there'd been a fifth man involved, which would explain the DNA evidence. But then something happened to blow up that theory. Further testing revealed a second DNA profile that was from another unknown male. Just like that, it was starting to seem like Robert, Michael, Maurice, and Forest had maybe never been a part of it at all. And two other individuals were the real criminals. Still prosecutors didn't want to admit that they'd gotten things completely wrong. They suggested that the DNA evidence might have been contaminated. On there'd been so many people going in and out of the crime, seeing the night of the murders, they could have even been an employee back at the lab. Police tested more than 100 people who might have touched the evidence.

34:35None of them came back as a match. It was frustrating for prosecutors who wanted to go back to the courtroom, but they couldn't do that until they identified the mystery DNA profiles. In 2017, investigators discovered that an FBI database might have a potential match. Unfortunately, it didn't lead anywhere. And that was the last update. Still the fall of 2025. On September 26, 2025, the Austin Police Department announced a huge breakthrough in the case. According to a press release, investigators had identified a new suspect in the quadruple homicide. A serial killer named Robert Eugene Braschers. Braschers was linked to at least three murders and one sexual assault in the 1990s. However, he died by suicide after a standoff with police in 1999.

35:36Apparently, the gun he used to shoot himself was an exact match for a bullet casing found in a drain at the yogurt shop. Not only that, but it seems like his DNA was a match for the physical evidence from 2007. Austin authorities are still in the process of releasing more information, but they revealed that Braschers was conclusively linked to the case using genetic genealogy, meaning he was identified using DNA from his relatives. As of this recording, Braschers hasn't been confirmed as the killer, but authorities have hinted that they're almost certain he was behind the murders. And once we know more, we'll be sure to give you the latest updates. After nearly 34 years, justice is on its way to being served. The families of Amy Ayers, Eliza Thomas and Sarah and Jennifer Harbison have applauded

36:40the Austin PD for finally solving the case. And while the last three decades have been devastating, the girls loved one spent that time fighting for change. Amy Ayers' brother and his wife help start a cold case in Missing Persons Advisory Committee for the Texas Attorney General. The mission is to push forward cold case murders that might otherwise fall through the cracks. Their work got the attention of other lawmakers too. In 2022, a Texas representative pushed through legislation called the Homicide Victims Families Rights Act. It's a bill that allows for a federal review and complete re-investigation of a case if it's been cold for at least three years. It lets cold cases live a second life by being reassessed with new technologies that might help find answers. The representative used the yogurt-shot murders as an example of a case that could benefit

37:42from such a process. Now, we know how right they are. The yogurt-shot murders were shocking and heartbreaking. All it took was one night for the illusion of safety to be shattered in Austin and to lose four teenage girls with their whole lives ahead of them. Amy Ayers, Eliza Thomas and Sarah and Jennifer Harbison changed the city of Austin forever. Thankfully, their names will no longer be synonymous with one of the most horrific, unsolved cases. Now, their memories will serve as a reminder that justice is always worth fighting for. Thanks for listening to this episode of Crime House 24-7. Be sure to come back tomorrow for cults and cons, where I get into two of the most brazen cults and con artists who ever lived.

38:44And to enhance your listening experience, join Crime House Plus and get every episode of Crime House 24-7 completely ad-free. Along with early ad-free access to all Crime House shows, plus monthly bonus episodes, to join go to CrimeHousePlus.com. Or if you listen on Apple podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the Crime House 24-7 page. Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. What if the small things actually felt small, like getting out of bed when you said you would? Or replying to a text right when it came in? Therapy can help you bridge the gap between where you are and where you want to be. And Alma can help you find a great therapist. The search can be the hardest part of getting started, right? Well, Alma has simplified it. Alma has a directory of over 26,000 quality therapists. With different specialties, life experiences and identities, and 98% of them take insurance. Make sure to have quick questions and they'll help you find a match. And most people find their match on their first try.

39:45Clients with insurance pay $20 on average, and most people find their match on their first try. If you're hoping to improve your mental health, try searching for a provider through Alma. Get started now at helloalma.com. That's helloalma.com. The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post. On Reddit, true crime doesn't come from journalists. It comes from the victims, the witnesses, and sometimes the suspects themselves. People post the things they'd never say out loud, anonymous, unfiltered, and completely real. And every Tuesday, on Crimes of Reddit, we read them out loud. I'm Sabrina Deanna Roca from Two Girls One Ghost, and I'm Alexis Linkletter from the first degree. Each week, one of us brings the most unhinged, true crime stories the internet has to offer. And the other goes in completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, reacting in real time, same as you, and then we swap.

40:45And we pull every thread until the whole twisted picture comes into view. It's dark, it's messy. And the scariest part is that these are real stories, hosted by real people. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Get into a fall state of mind with Pura. Start the season with a free Pura Plus home diffuser when you subscribe to Two Sents for six months. Choose from seasonal and best selling fall fragrances. Swap your sense any time and set a custom schedule so your home always feels like a crisp, cozy, autumn day. Bring the sense of fall like Pumpkin, Apple, and Vanilla, home with this exclusive offer only at Pure.com. Thanks for listening to this episode from Crime House. If you're looking for another show to check out, listen to serial killers and murderous minds. Every Monday and Thursday, Dr. Tristan Engels and myself dig into the most chilling murders and uncover what drives them to kill.

41:47Follow serial killers and murderous minds, available wherever you listen to podcasts.