Flashback: Cullen Kelly || A Family Tradition Of Conservation

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1:01for trucks, SUVs, vans, trailers, and RVs, torque wheels are made to match your lifestyle and your rig. Wherever you go, whatever you haul, go with confidence. Visit torquewheels.com to find a retailer near you. Today's flashback episode is to Cullen Killy, a family tradition. The Killes are a storied family of hunters in South Africa. Gary Killy started hunting in the 1970s, was involved with Rhino Relocation with Ian Plyer. And today his sons, Cullen, and Sean Killy continued the tradition of Gary Killy's safaris. Ross released in today's flashback episode because Killy, the episode of the family of the Killy's, drops today on YouTube. Go check it out, share the link around, enjoy this magnificent family of hunters from South Africa, showing the true why behind why we are hunters.

2:02Enjoy. So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now, that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot we've got, you know, too heavy and it's a burden to walk with, too light and you whip in it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community? It's a, I think it's normally important. I think it's vital. I think it's just in time. It's night, snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide that. That is such an amazing analogy, snakes and ladders. Yeah. I've re, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age, okay? The expensive will go and up, it does a long way with families. Well, families, they do need it. Let me close this door because I have a little winged dog. Well, you're laughing because I said, we know. I've said, I really got you finished the sentence out.

3:02I'm sorry, I was a pretty tough one. We're doing it here today. You're telling me the whole world. All right, let's make sure that my cellphones over there doesn't interfere. I just Gary Kelly so far is known for like their foot pHs. We're trying to change our town. We're trying to change the culture. Culture, my wife is a decent. She's really busy. He's redefining his physicality. Shown guys to his moments. And Ali is trying once a month. I call and Kelly, welcome to the Belorigen's podcast. Thanks, Ravi. Good to have you here. It's been a long time and we are. We grateful for your present shots. Satin, you have here. Yeah, man, you know, we've been talking about doing all of the to me and I got, I don't know why I got such a stick. I did a post on, actually, I think it was rough

4:06the episode. And I said, you know, blood origins, we've been really interested in telling the story of like, store war, South African hunting families. So did the knots. Carries hunted with the knots way back in the day. We've done the mountains. That's tied to your family, Kelly Martin's great, Kelly Martin. Yeah, that's correct. Barcy Martin's being the first professional hunter in South Africa, registered. Then we did the for marks couldn't run bullet for mark has been, you know, the longest standing out for the DSC of 45 years or something, silly like that. Yeah. And then the last family, I said, I said this all was supposed to last round is the kill is yeah, shit, I got like so many like you forgot so many people, 30 names. And I said, yeah, they sound all good, but are they have they been going since, yeah, since the 70s, 70s, no, they haven't been the great pH is maybe, you know, one guy in the 90s, one guy in the 2000s,

5:09you know, maybe one old store war, but he's long and gone. Yeah, they're not still around. Yeah, they're not still operating and their signs are not in the business or something like that. Yeah, it's crazy, man. So yeah, that's why we're here. And I think it, you know, we've done, we did scruff and crag and how it, we did how it a little differently. We didn't really tell the not story we told, and this is why we're going to do yours the same way as we did how it's is that I don't want to, I think there's a much richer story, not to not to throw away the Kelly story, but I think there's a much richer story behind the things that Gary has put in place here. And the work that he's done here over 30 years, how long has he been here? So he's, yeah, he's been in Zulu Land since the, so that's the country was a little bit away from you. He's been in Zulu Land since the 70s. Is that better? Yeah, yeah. So he, yeah, he started in Zulu Land in the 70s.

6:11So he's been here, you know, for what would Gary see this landscape used to be like? Well, most of it back then was all catapharming. Very, very few game farms back then. I was at that stage as one of the first game reserves in the area, and it was called Penoza Ranch. And that right now is part of Pinda, which is a famous photographic reserve in the area. So it started as hunting, started as hunting. Is somebody, you know, Peter Kennedy? Yes, very well. Yeah. So Peter Kennedy said he wants to build a map. He wants to build a map of Africa, country by country. And he wants to color it like yellow, light green, dark green. And the color coordination is tied to what has transpired in the past. I can't remember how we put it all together, but if you look at Kruger, you look at Pinda, you look at Shushluyum Fulose, you look at all,

7:11add all those places before they became those grandiose game reserves, nature reserves. We're hunted. Yeah, that's true. Started as a hunting reserve. And it's almost like the hunting community takes these places, like this place. Cattle Ranchers says, no, no, no, let's start thinking more wildlife orientated. It is 2026 and my friends, big changes have happened in the world of firearm suppressors. The $200 tax stamp fee is now gone. Huge one for hunters, huge one for shooters and a huge one for your wallets. If you're thinking about elevating your shooting experience and adding a suppressor, silence essential is the best way to shop. And you don't even have to get off your couch to do it. Go to silenceessential.com, browse hundreds of suppressor options. They literally have all of the popular makes and models. Then their experts will walk you through setting up your account, creating a free NFA trust

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9:15or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle, sell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us, whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck. Okay, don't skip past this. This isn't your regular ad. This is me asking a favor of you, our listener. We have a new YouTube channel specifically for our podcasts. The Origins Foundation podcast. Just Google it, put it in YouTube and subscribe and then share it with your friends. That's where we're gonna have all of our podcast videos in one spot. So if you don't wanna just listen to this in your vehicle, you wanna watch it on YouTube as you are sitting working during the day, put it on your headphones and listen it and watch at the same time. I need you to subscribe to the Origins Foundation

10:18podcast channel on YouTube. You know me, just randomly, I'm gonna pick probably one or two or three YouTube subscribers to the new podcast channel and send you something. We've got great partners that give us free stuff to give away. Why not give it to you guys? So go ahead and subscribe. The Origins Foundation podcast channel. Not only are you gonna watch some cool podcasts, but you could win some cool stuff too. And creates these jewels, these gems. And then nature conservation or government comes in and goes. That looks amazing now. Thank you so much. We'll take it away from you and we're gonna make it into a photographic area. Yeah, that's exactly what happens. We, the Hunters create this, you know, these beautiful areas because I put a lot of time and effort and anti-pouching and all that stuff. And then, you know, either take it back by the government or, you know, private equity, big money guys come in and take it over. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's just fascinating. I'm always, I'm very, as you know me,

11:19I'm just interested in finding these like nuggets of information to say, you know, actually, you know, you bash hunters all the time, you bash hunting all the time. But look at these gems that we've created. Yeah, I mean, a lot of these areas if it wasn't for forehunting, they would never have been created. When you were growing up with your dad, he constantly involved you in all the hunting aspects or how did that happen? You know, from, from when we were kids, from as long as I can remember, we were always going on hunts with them, school holidays with clients, with clients. Yeah, with clients. So we were, you know, obviously I'm the youngest of my three brothers. So I remember going on a rana hunt when I was six years old with my dad, you know, and we'd be stand back, walk with the trackers and yeah, every holiday we were with them on the safari. Was that something that Gary was like known for? Because I don't think very many people were hunting rhinos.

12:19Yeah, I would think, yeah, different either rhinos. If you look back, my dad's a very modest guy. He's quite shy, you would never say it, but I don't think there's anyone that's answered as many rana in South Africa as my father. And you know, back in those days, did you just specialize in it? Did he just make a niche for himself? Like, that's what I'm good at. That's what I note how to do. I think that, but also he was lucky in terms of him being his area's headwatana, a good population of them where they were able to hunt them. When did the whole Rhino relocation boom happen? Was that before the 70s? Yes, it was a player and whatnot, too. Yeah, yeah, Ian Player. And Norman Dean was very instrumental who my dad worked for. He was involved with the Ian Player. Who's Norman Dean? Is he like that was first out for the here in South Africa? What was Norman Dean was the first out for the in South Africa? And my dad was, I think 18 or 19

13:21and he started working from out of them, Kuzi, Zulu Land Safari Lodge, which is not far from here. And that's where, you know, it was, it was Tathur Amphalazi, Obazan, Kuzi Gamerserv where they brought the rana back. So Zulu Land Safari Lodge, if I'm not mistaken, Obazaners where they had Rhino and they had, that's where they, they're the first Rhino hunts with Norman Dean and my dad, yeah. Were they bringing Rhino into these places? Maybe this is a question for Gary, but were they bringing these Rhino's into these places and then giving them opportunities to breed up? Or is it like, okay, we brought in 10 Rhino's. Now we need to hunt one or two to keep the money coming in. Like, obviously what's happening here today? Yeah, I think that would be a good question for my dad. I don't know how it was back then, but, you know, they were trying to repopulate, right? They were trying to take Rhino out of Shesluium Flows and push him into all these new areas

14:23and start new breeding herds and new populations of Rhino. Yeah, so I think back then what they were doing is if they would hunt to Rhino, they would use the funding from that, some of the funds from that to go purchase more Rhino and bring them in to, you know, to increase the, they heard. Yeah, an increased number of possible hunts that they could've had also sell, yeah. But to a point, obviously. Yeah. Sure, it was fascinating, man. It's just, you know, and now obviously we're in Rhino Poetern crisis, reason why we're here. But, if you look around South Africa right now and you guys have been in the Rhino Conservation game, how long do you think you, you could say you've been in the Rhino Conservation game? Well, I mean, I'd go back to where my dad was first started. So since the 70s, you know, for sure. It'd be interesting to be fascinating to hear Gary's perspective and we'll get it. But, you know, it's 50 years, 2027, it's 50 years since the trade of Rhino horn was put in place, 1977.

15:24Yes. 2017 was the 40 anniversary, and it's when Swazlamp put their proposal forward to sell their white runners and they lost 26, 26 countries said yes, 17 abstained, 100 sit-knur. See, that's interesting. In 2017. So have Rhino's done better since 2017 to today? Not sure. You know, I think like Pierre said yesterday, if you look at this property and these nature reserves around here, do you think you've got more Rhino today than you did say 10 years ago? If you have to look back, I would say definitely. Yeah. So I would say in certain places, Rhino's are doing better. Yeah, for sure. But they're only doing better in places that have money. That's exactly what you're doing. Yeah. You know, if it's because we've got the funds through hunting, through sustainable utilization to be able to protect them, and that's why we have them, because if we don't have a value to them, what's the purpose of having them?

16:25Because it costs a lot of money to have Rhino, not just obviously you got your costs of running your reserve, now added Rhino, the anti-pouching, you know, it all adds up very quickly. Do you think, obviously you guys hunt, you don't hunt elephant here yet, right? No, unfortunately we don't, because we don't have any permits, you know, the government, South Africa hasn't been, they should have any permits here. But you do have lion, we go lion. Without, if you took, obviously lion is a anomaly in the system. If you didn't have, let's, it's tough to say, well, let's make an assumption. There's no Rhino, there's no Rhino hunting here, there's no lion hunting here, yeah? We'll still make it. It's a very good question. So we, on this property, we do a hybrid of photographic and hunting, and there would be no way, unless we would run at 80% occupancy to cover the costs, if we didn't hunt lion and Rhino, we would be putting in money out of our own pockets,

17:26if we didn't, if we didn't have those animals as well to hunt. And you, you're firmly in the camp that photographics and hunting can work together, 100%. We've done it for multiple years, it's worked very well together. You know, we, we don't just, you know, shoot anything we see, we've got strict creatures that we stick by. So, you know, those creatures that we stick by, brings in enough income to cover costs of the reserve, along with the photographics. So, yeah, we've done it, and it's worked well on our side. Do you think you'd still need hunting, if you're running at 100% occupancy from photographic perspective? If we ran at 100%, probably not, but the chances of that with the competition that's around now, and where we are located would be pretty slim to, to run at that percentage. And we've been talking about other areas around here, elevating their photographic camps, right? That's correct, yeah. Going from your normal like, hey, it's an average South African citizen could probably

18:29afford to come to these photographic lodges, but now there's certain photographic lodges that are going to elevate way above. Yeah, so, and I, if I look at our area here, and most of them is, are, are unaffordable to South Africans. And as I told you, we're redoing our photographic lodge, and we're going to make it affordable to South Africans because we feel that's an important part. But, yeah, I think to get to, even to get to 60% will still be a challenge, but I think it's definitely something that we can achieve. Yeah, well, again, what we talked about, hey, look at that blue sky. It's been raining like cats and dogs here. You know, somebody driving in from Durban, you know, you're going past Shishlu Influ, you know, in Paris, Pinder, Tanda, you talked all about it. There's lots of lots of places that people could, Manoy, they could all go to before they come all the way in here. Yeah. And what are you offering them in here?

19:30Definitely. And everything's got to be a little different. Like, what are you, maybe it's the runes, maybe it's the service, maybe it's, yeah, that the game is the game. That's exactly right. So you've got all those reserves. So you've got to have something a little bit different. And I think, I think we fortunate in terms of the landscape. We've got a big river and the game viewing is amazing. So, that's it. The competition is, there's a lot of competition. Here comes the singing troupe. Yeah. Hi, P. Hi. Can you tell them to keep quiet? This calls the door. That's all. We're doing well. Doing a great job. Join in. Um, you know, one of the things that we're doing here from a Rhino perspective is trying to understand what it takes to consider a runner.

20:31Obviously money is involved. Um, but what about you? You're a land owner, right? Yes. Now of this land. Yes. But you don't own it. We don't own the land. We lease the land from the community. Yeah. So maybe first Christian, first like a lot of people will point the thing and go, those you guys that are leasing the land, the community gets nothing. Yeah. So the way we've structured our setup here is, is, I don't, I wouldn't, I can't speak on other areas, but we feel that the community benefit greatly. So we have a long lease on the land. We, we pay them a lease every year. Um, and all the meat, whatever we hunt, we give every single bit of meat to the community. There's 52 families and, um, over 130 people that we support. And, um, and obviously other than that, we employ all community members in the main lodge

21:31and our hunting lodge. So all these guys that we see here, they're all from the local community, they're all from our local community are. Um, so, you know, we support them tremendously. If it wasn't for us, that none of them would have jobs. And this would, was, was, could they get jobs here? Wouldn't it be who else? What are the photographic campers around here? There's a lot of other photographic camps, but, you know, they've, they've got all their staff already. So the competition, there's a lot of competition. Okay. So they, you know, and at least this is their place. We just leasing it and, um, it's good for them to, to work out to see that we're looking after their land. Cause, you know, we'll obviously put in capital and, and obviously we've got a long lease, but it's, you know, it's good for them to see that we, we maintaining the roads, we doing the anti-pitching, we taking care of the bush. You know, we, we looking after the, the structures. When you say you're taking care of the bush, tell, what, what are you doing? So we're, there's lots of, um, alien plant vegetation that we need to, to get rid of, um, um, the sickle balls is a big one.

22:35A panthenium. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's just never any. Lenton, you mean, huh? A panthenium. And then lanton is another separate one. So those are the three main, um, things that we, we tried to get rid of there. Yeah. Then you also talked about the chairperson. What does he do with the meat sometimes? So that with the, with their meat, what they'll either do is they'll, let's, for instance, if we hunt at a buffalo, they'll either distribute it to, to the, the members of the community. But if we've shot quite a few and they, they've had a lot of meat, he'll, um, sell the meat. There's a putty down the road. And from those fans, um, they'll utilize those fans. If there's, um, someone in the community that needs to go to the school or university or, you know, to better themselves, that's, that's obviously what, what he'll use it for as well. So are there any stipulations in your lease agreement or contract of the community? Are you doing schoolwork or the building schools? I know a lot of hunting outfits, you know, South Africa,

23:39but mainly, you know, more zambias and Bob, we tend to near kind of thing of building schools and clinics and all that kind of stuff. Is that happening here? So not really. Not really. We don't have that on our lease because the, the schools are already here. Um, what we are going to be doing is, is, um, we will be getting a vehicle for them because, you know, they don't have transports of the schools, maybe 10 kilometers away. So we're going to get like a mini bus taxi driver, kids to school. But the schools are here. Really, there's multiple schools in the area. So it wouldn't really be beneficial to go and build the school and those are government operated schools. Really. So, um, it gets a bit complicated. Just like the ones who are too luck tans in here and other countries. Yeah. Yeah. So from a rhino protection perspective, what, what are the things that you have to deal with? And I would say, again, I go back to the original question, which is your Orlando and all right. Yes. Like, what are you still doing up at night worrying about the most?

24:40So I think we, we, we, we located is quite a tricky position because we very close to Swaziland with 45 minutes drive to the Swaziland border and about an hour and 40 minutes to Mozambique. So we, every week, we get information that big picture, rhino pictures coming in. So it's, you, you always on alert, your, your anti-paging team is, you know, it must be a different beast because you obviously hunt everywhere. Yes. You're not just here all the time. Yeah. So we've got a management team, obviously. So my dad manages the reserve for us. So he deals with that, but obviously we own WhatsApp group. So I mean, it is, it's, it's relentless. It's, it's a, it's a never ending battle. It's you on, you on alert all the time because sometimes it goes quite and that's obviously when, you know, that's when things happen. So, you know, it's just, you've always got to be on top of it and, and, you know, just make sure that, you know, your, your gars are committed and don't get, you know, complicit.

25:43How do you stay on top of it? Just making sure that, you know, every single day you do the same routines, you check the fences every day. Because obviously that's your boundary. You need to make sure that you check it. What are the guys checking the boundary fence for? So for a gars coming in. So they'll check and walk our fence every single day to make sure that they don't find checks coming in. You know, obviously I was just walking. Certain sections. No, they'll walk. So each, we've got a couple of different gars. They'll each walk, you know, maybe like a five kilometer section of the fence to check that. So they'll get dropped off by a guy that's driving around and dropping each of the team members off. Correct. And they're looking for fence breaks. Fence breaks for football coming in. Footprints, footprints, yuck. Obviously we surrounded by community. So it would be an issue if we ever had like a lion or something get out. That would be a whole another story. Yeah, so it's just you got to always just check your boundary. And yeah, which is super important.

26:43And I mean, we will do like mock runs with the dog unit like you guys saw the other day to keep gars, you know, alerts on their training. And then obviously, you know, they can't work all the time. So our gars work 21 days on and then they have seven days off, you know, that's seven days. How much do they have to pay? People in total for your team. So we've got on our anti-pouching side, we've got I think 16 gars now. Okay. Yeah. And the other so in total, there's lots of obviously properties around you that have their own anti-pouching unit. Correct. So what do you think in total are there people being employed for anti-pouching in this area? It did well over 100 gars for sure. If I look at all those areas, if you include, you know, just our area here. We go to some kind of manioni, pinder, tinder. I mean, definitely over 100 gars for sure. Do you have an estimate on how many rhinos are in this entire complex?

27:45Are you talking about just, yeah, close to us or you want to include pinder? No, let's not include you under. Let's talk about here. We will. I'm a cosy. Really, the sun and some kind of some kind of yeah and and dear accounts. I would say and how many acres, firstly, how many hectares do we think that all is encompassing 200,000? So I would say acres, yeah, definitely 200,000 acres and so about 100,000 hectares. 100,000 hectares and I would say about 150 water on her and about 70 black ground. Okay. If I could just think of the top of my head. Sure. Sure. So anti-purchasing is obviously number one. You've got a dog unit that we met with a previous today, but a dog unit operating in that dog unit is spread around all of those different properties that we talked through. Right. That's correct. And you've also got potentially an informant network.

28:46That's correct. That's with one of the farmers. That's right. And then obviously also your community guys, the anti-purchasing guys are all part of the community. That's right. They're all WhatsApped into the community and whatnot and I assume any sort of, hey, there's a strange dude here or there is. Yes. It comes back to us quickly. That's right. Yeah. You got all that in place. You haven't lost a runner here recently. Not yet. Not recently, yes. When I was lost to Jules Rona. That was two years ago. How many do you lose one? Just one. Yeah. It was something that was close to the fence or how did what happened there? It was on the south eastern side. So there's a district road and it was pretty close to the fence and right at a waterhole. So they walked in, found the tracks at the water. I'll shot the runner, it took the horn and you think it was more of that rhino being there frequently and people driving by seeing the rhino. Oh, there's a rhino there.

29:47I don't think so because it's quite, you can't from the district road, you can't actually see that area. But I definitely think those guys, you don't think the rhino was closer to the fence where they could, he could be seen. I think they knew where that waterhole was and they walked there, found the just by luck. Happenstance? No, I think they have impaired information that the rhino frequented this waterhole and then went there. Also the area, as you've seen, with all the hills, the guy can sit in the community on the hill with his look and he can see into this property and he can pick up a runner and he could drop a pin to guys easy and they could come in. You know, that's just the land is so vast, how do you protect it 24 or 7? Well, that's the tricky part is that it's number one, it's vast, number two, it's thick. I don't even understand, it has to be a disadvantage for both teams, but it doesn't seem like it's a disadvantage for the coaching team.

30:47It's also full of predators, full of lions and elephants and whatnot, but that doesn't deter them at all. No, that seems like they don't even worry about that. If they're on for the runner, they go straight in because we've got a lot of line here, so the chances of them bumping into something is pretty good. It could happen, yeah, for sure. Yet the value of that runner horn is such that it's worth it for them. Worth risking their lives. What did you say you told me, was it you telling a story of a poetry getting smacked by a line? So it's some kind of, but this was a subsistence poetry. So a guy had put up some snares and was caught in a njala and was carrying the njala out. Three of them, three guys. And a young male lion actually charged the guy and with the njala and molded him really badly. His friends obviously left him.

31:49And luckily for him, the njala ended up, I mean, sorry, the poetry, I mean, the lion ended up eating the njala and the poachy. Yeah, and he survived and the joi he got him and probably. But the other two guys came back, they came back the next day. They found them the next day. So it happened at like three in the morning and they found them the next day. She's, yeah, it's unbelievable, man. Let me ask this philosophically, where do you stand with somebody who is a subsistence poetry? Well, it gets tricky. You know, that's why. You know, if you look at our community, the poor scars that ran this reserve didn't give them any meat. Okay. So we look at it at the way is that we'd rather supply them with meat and then it will, you know, hopefully alleviate the need for them to come in. But, you know, if you look at a lot of these guys, they, you know, they don't have, it's a lot of people don't have jobs, they're starving.

32:50You know, they're just trying to, you know, get some of them are trying to get meat for their families and some of them are trying to sell meat. Obviously, the guys is trying to sell meat a bit different. But we've always looked at it and if my dad will tell you, tell this to you, when we had our original game form, he always shot a couple of animals every month to give to the community guys close by to try and stop them poaching. But he said, but if I catch you poaching, then you're going to be in big trouble because I've given you guys meat. So I mean, it's hard because the guys just trying to feed his family, you know, but the problem with subsistence poaching, as we've seen it some kind of one of our areas, you know, the snares, they're terrible things. They killed the wild dogs. They've killed. It was a beautiful big male lion that was killed last year. We've had multiple, you know, lapids, quotes and snares, cheetahs. So, you know, the ripple effect of the sneering is terrible. But to go back to the original question, I mean, I do feel bad for the guys, but it's still not right, you know, to come and poach for subsistence even.

33:59Yeah, it's a moral dilemma. Yeah, it's a moral dilemma because, and here's the other moral dilemma that I have is, it's the number one is moral dilemma to feed someone. Right, if you're starving and your and your family needs food, I actually don't have a problem with you going in and hunting. And if trapping is your mechanism by which you hunt and so be it. Yes, it's indiscriminate in terms of what it takes, but, you know, again, a subsistence guy, if he's truly a subsistence guy, you don't know whether or not they've got, you know, any sort of thoughts to management or sustainability of the resource or what nots. They go in, couple of snares, check it regularly because you would want to check it regularly because you're after that meal. And once you've got it, snares come out and don't feel you know kind of thing. Selling the meat, obviously, you know, is illegal.

34:59And so there's a very fine line right there of like, or what is in there are laws and regulations that need to be followed. You know, I was trying to make a living by selling meat, but there's laws and regulations in place that make it illegal in terms of what he's doing. So yeah, it's a very, you know, the last thing I'll say is that for the most part today hunting is a recreational endeavor. People come, Americans come to enjoy the sport of hunting. They do it for fun. They may be maybe simplistic about it. And that's okay. But if the community guys wanted to recreate and hunt for sport with their dogs, that's looked upon his bed.

36:08Yes, that is right. It's a tough dilemma, right? And it's almost like it's funny that maybe again, I don't want to put, I don't want to put people's ideas forward, but you know, this community land that you're leasing. I'm surprised that in the contract, they haven't said no, but we want to be able to run our dogs once a year and do a traditional hunt, which I don't think you would say no to. Yeah, I mean, with the traditional dogs and stuff like that, we would probably say no to them. And the only reason why. But would you say no if it's a once in a, once a year endeavor like a, you know, a festival or something like that, they're like, okay, but you know, once you were coming in with dogs and we're going to, you know, catch a couple of impala. Yeah, we would say no because it's often unfortunate, you know, it's never just once, you know, then it becomes something that's expected.

37:11So you kind of need to set that precedent and, you know, if it's something that's a real, I mean, a couple of years ago, was mentioning to you that the king was getting inaugurated. Yeah, we are too. I too, and he came along and he had to hunt a full of beasts and an yarl and we were more than happy to do that. But it was done properly, you know, I took him, he shot the animals well, clean shot and then they left. You know, something like that when we were able to go along and that's what he wanted. He wanted to hunt it that way, then want to hunt it with you. And he would assume it would be dogs and stabbing spears and stuff like that, right? Yeah, so he wanted to hunt it with his gun and all of that. And then, you know, the other part of that is now obviously you get all these community members coming in and then they see all your honor, filters back. You know, so we try and do keep it as quiet as possible.

38:11You know, I mean, Robbie, we've even had situations where guys have checked in as guests and saying that they are guests, but they're actually being sent by Rhino poachers so they're going to game drive, they'll see Rhino's and they'll drop a pint of poachers. Oh, yeah. They didn't even think of that. Yeah, amazing. But as you said, they're getting or even peer said that it's a mate. You'd think that Rhino poachers are going to be unsophisticated individuals. Yeah, but they always actually like Pierre was saying yesterday, they're almost as a step ahead of us. You know, we always try to catch up to them. How do we get ahead of them? Like, what is the thing that's going to get us ahead of them? Is it a massive improvement in a thermal drone technology that we get on to first and say, okay, let's do this, but we've also got regulations that prohibit doing a lot of things. I think we were talking about it today, right? The regulation of... Yeah, when you catch someone.

39:11You catch someone, like, what happens then? Like, there's no... That's the problem, and so that's because you catch someone, the court... I know it's the same in a lot of countries. The court cases take favor. By the time the gargets charged, it's two years later, he's often out on bail, he's often committed other... potpouching incidences in the meantime. It's almost like South Africa, all these governments... And it wouldn't take much. You just have to identify a judge or something. That is... like, that's the Rhino judge. Like, there's a Rhino court. Right, that this guy has... He's been allocated, like, hey, a portion of your time on a weekly basis, ten hours of your time is going to be dedicated to Rhino cases. That's it. You're the man. And literally every Rhino poacher that gets caught... Goes to him. Goes to him, and it happens quick.

40:11That would be the ideal world there. That would be ideal. But, yeah, it's... I don't know, it's a good question. How do we get ahead of them? We obviously try all the time. You know, obviously, the technology is a massive thing, but they also have technology. I mean, if they've... if they've got enough money to pay a garg, 50,000 round for information, you know, they've got... like I was saying to you earlier, they've got these guys used drones now themselves. So, yeah, I mean, it is a challenge. The big topic is obviously the... the leasing, the tried and the run-on, which I think would... would justically bring it down. And you think it would reduce purchasing? I think so. Yeah, I mean, it would flood the market for sure. I mean, as you know, the stockpile between the private and government sectors, just the South Africa alone, is unbelievable. It's almost like what we were talking about, the Rhino mix guys, creating... It almost sounds like, again, I haven't spoken to them yet. Did you speak to them? Yeah, I've both of us have spoken to them.

41:11It's almost like they're creating a legal exchange. It's like an exchange for Rhino horn. So, if somebody in the east is looking for Rhino horn, instead of having to go through these illegal routes, and not sure if you're going to get your Rhino horn or not get your Rhino horn, or you don't know what the state of your Rhino horn is going to be, is it a full horn, is it a disc, is it whatever? Yeah. These guys seem to be trying to, or willing to set up a legal exchange, by which that individual in the east can come in and go, hmm, that's what I want. I want that run, yeah. So, that's what they're doing. They're buying up as much Rhino horn as possible, and speculating that hopefully the trade is going to open in a couple of years time. And that's what they said to you. They said that they were going to be a broker. Do you know? Yeah, they basically are buying up as much Rhino horn as possible, and their mission is to open the trade and run. And what are they paying for Rhino horn right now? So, how are they valuating it? So, in South Africa, you can trade.

42:11You can, but I answer the Africa. Yeah, I can sell to someone else in South Africa, and they're paying $10,000 a KG from South African to South African. That's nothing. Yeah. But if Rhino horn was legal to be traded, what would that number be? I don't know. I mean, you have the numbers of $70 to $80,000 per KG. And now they're offering $10,000, I mean. What's $7? What? It's like $300. $350. $350. Shit. So, it's a drastic difference. So, it would be interesting to be interesting to... You think that's what these random ex-guys are doing? Is that they're hedging their bets? I'm buying it at $10,000,000, hopefully legalization occurs, and I'm selling it then at $100,000. Yeah, I mean, even if he sells it at $20,000, if he's got that much, I mean, he's making a killing. Yeah.

43:11But, Joe, that'll be interesting to see how that one plays out. Hmm. So, what do you think the future is here for you guys? Keep doing what you're doing? It obviously seems to be working. Yeah, I think, you know, now that, you know, we took over in February last year, so it's been... Yeah, but you've been here for 30 years? Yeah, we've been in the area for 30 years, but I'm talking this property property specifics. So, you know, we never hunted this property before last year? No, we did. We hunted Jeff, and we never had control of the running of the... Oh, yeah, yeah. It was controlled by someone else. Okay. Yeah, our aim is we all young guys that are involved here, and we in it for the long run, and we want to make this place one of the most amazing reserves. So, we here to protect our honor, we here to protect all the other game, and to look after the property, work well with the community, and hopefully it plays out, but, Joe, we're not here for the short term, and we feel that we can get that done.

44:14Yeah. And everybody in the community, all the reserves around you are on the same page. 100% Joe, we kind of feel that this area is a bit... Forgotten, and untouched, and it's... I don't think anybody knows about this. Yeah. In South Africa. No, they don't, and it's magnificent. As you've seen, the terrain is beautiful, the mountain game, and it's for South Africa, it's very special for us, because it's still got that wild side. Yeah, you've got a huge line population. All the reserves we talked about that have Rhino have line. Lots of line. Yeah. Too many lines, and too many elephants. So, yeah, it really is a thriving area. Maybe too many rhinos. I don't know about that. Man, it's awesome. No, it's cool. We just need this rain to lift, and these clouds to go away, and we've got a bunch of time, yeah. So, that's... I'm sure it'll clear up, and do what it needs to do. Yeah, but we've got a couple of such exciting days ahead of us,

45:15so yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Well, I appreciate you, Colin. I really do, and thank you for the invitation. Thank you for hosting us. Yeah, thank you. And, yeah, I'm sure we'll put together a... I'm looking forward to what we can put together, specifically about your family and your legacy and the conservation work that you guys have done here. But obviously, then, the much broader piece that we've also working on at the same time, which is this big Rhino documentary, and really just outlining some of these issues that are happening all around Rhino's. Yeah, I know, for sure. It's great having you guys here. Thanks very much, Toby. You're welcome. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening, as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening, as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.