Flashback: Is A Rhino Hunt Conservation? Part 1.

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2:02And what I wanted to do is I wanted to put a round table discussion together between myself and the cinematographers, because they'd never really experienced this. And they don't really come from a South African background. They don't really have a background Rhino conservation either. So we wanted to have an open honest conversation about what this landscape looked like, and what their initial impressions were, given that they knew nothing at the beginning of this adventure. It's an insightful conversation about how perceptions can be changed over the course of a couple of weeks based on the reality on the ground as they get to experience it. So enjoy this flashback today, especially in a week that is tied to will run a day and then for some Rhino conservation. So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spotlight again, you know, too heavy and it's a burden to walk with,

3:06too light and with the net. Why is the project so important to the hunting community? It's a, I think it's normally important. I think it's vital. I think it's just in time. It's night snakes and ladders. You guys are clearly climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide that. That is such an amazing analogy snakes and ladders. Yeah, you know, every, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age, okay? Expensive will go and up it does a long way with families. Well, families that do need it. Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What? Are you laughing because I said wiener? I said, really God, you finished the sentence out. I'm sorry, I was a pretty tough one. What are we doing here today? You're telling the whole world. You guys, how long has it been since you've been on around it? It was that. Stop looking at me.

4:07It's late of it. It's amazing. Who is that? Lewis making noise. Can you please stop that? Stop messing with the wife. Just stop. Stop. We're recording already. I'm not doing anything. Why is everyone always pick on me? He's getting in a silly mood because he wants to be funding on the podcast. Well, people love Lewis on the podcast. People love Lewis on the round up. Wiener lost what we do around up? That's one. Tensanere. Tensanere has to be. Tensanere. I don't remember where. What have we done since then? I don't know why I've kept you off the podcast since then. Probably because you're going to get banned from Spotify. Probably. We're number two in the wilderness podcast space right now. You know that? Freddie? Wow. Number two. Number two in the wilderness space. Yep. Yep. It's a check out. 103. Freddie, would you like to introduce yourself and tell us some fun facts about you? 103 in the sports category. Freddie, this is are we breaking popping your cherry? Podcast cherry. I did a podcast for like 10 years ago.

5:10I did one episode. One episode. One and done. One and done. What your own podcast? Uh, sort of, yeah. What was it called? Oh, we're going to go find music. Oh, we're going to go find music. Is it loaded? You won't find it anywhere. It's buried and deep in. Friday with Freddie. Deep in the vaults of Spotify. Was a little podcast version of the film Freddie got fingered. I mean, it was just your experience. It's. She's, it's already going downhill. Two minutes in. Only half one. So there was anyone episode. Okay. Was it just you on the podcast? Yeah, it was. It was just it was just your turn or monologue. No, it was just me in a make-up. Number two, wilderness, right? Yeah, exactly. Not for long. Good, Freddie. Good, Freddie. Not for long. You've clearly done this before. So your, your seed is the one that is typically, has been occupied by stiff in the past. Yes, it's been occupied by Patrick out of Botswana. Remember that podcast?

6:11You guys started the podcast without me. I don't remember that. Yeah, I do. Yeah, in Leon's tent. Right. I was just, I was pulled out because the kernel was leaving. And I had to say goodbye to the kernel and you guys were like, let's just start the podcast without Robbie. And off we went. Oh, good. But Freddie, you've been, you're new to slots media. Yes, I've been working with them remotely. And now I get to be around them more often. You've got some sick editing skills. We've seen some of the, the audiences seen some of your edits, which are quite amazing. Thank you. And some now showing off your filming muscles, huh? Yeah, when I can. When they let you out. Yeah, when they let me pick up. Let me, let me pick up an FX. The fun fact, fun fact about Freddie. Yeah, the people- The tier it. People are listening. I don't know Freddie. Freddie will look at a shot and go, oh yes, that is Quentin Tarantino does those all the time.

7:12Or Steven Spielberg likes to do that. He has a catalog of different shots that directors like to lean on, which is really useful. And actually quite amazing. I'll never tell him not to his face. I'm actually looking at Robbie. Yeah, you're looking at me and he has to be- He's not making it. I don't want to give, no. We can't, we can't, we've got to keep him humble. Yep, I do like the Freddie impression you made there. It's been being on the podcast. It's quite accurate. So yeah, we can compare and contrast. I think the audience will know that that's not very accurate because they can hear my voice. The lady, the lady, Doth, protest too much. But yeah, he's, that's quite interesting. That's why we kind of tried to get him to film for us. We took him to Scotland to do the Swarski shoot, which we did the commercial for the new Swarski DS. Which was epic, by the way. Did you edit that as well, Freddie? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, did did that one as well. Yeah, it was very good. Yeah, we had fun doing that. It was a good, nice collaboration. So we, um- Have they released that? Yeah. It is 2026 and my friends, big changes have happened in the world of firearm suppressors.

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9:14It's really the simplest way to get your suppressors. Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right, they want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails, could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle, cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards, as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us, whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.

10:14Okay, don't skip past this. This isn't your regular ad. This is me asking a favor of you, our listener. We have a new YouTube channel specifically for our podcasts. The origins foundation podcast. Just Google it, put it in YouTube and subscribe and then share it with your friends. That's where we're going to have all of our podcast videos in one spot. So if you don't want to just listen to this in your vehicle, you want to watch it on YouTube as you are sitting working during the day, you put it on your headphones and listen it and watch at the same time. I need you to subscribe to the origins foundation podcast channel on YouTube. You know me just randomly, I'm going to pick probably one or two or three YouTube subscribers to the new podcast channel and send you something. We've got great partners that give us free stuff to give away. Why not give it to you guys? So go ahead and subscribe. The origins foundation podcast channel. Not only are you going to watch some cool podcasts, but you could win some cool stuff too.

11:15They've released it, but we've got a director's cut version. Okay. Two times longer. And there's a lot more. I think I saw the one that was like four minutes. Yeah, the four minutes one is the one the director's cut. They cut it down to like under two. They gave us crazy freedom. And then removed the creative freedom when we gave them the creative freedom produced. The four minute cut was awesome. And they were like, oh, we got to put these guys back in. It was awesome. No, it's funny that you say that about Freddie Lisa, my wife is very much like a movie buff, like a film understands everything. She can watch a movie and the color palette of the film. She was like, oh, that color palette came from the 1960 original. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, when she says that you nod and say, that's really interesting. Whereas when I say that these two all sort of either poke me in the ribs or. No, they probably say the same thing I do, which is man, Freddie, that's really interesting. And in the back of our brains, we're both going, we don't even, I don't even know what that means. I don't know what that, what it,

12:16I don't, if it's even worthwhile, like information to keep in my brain, like, yeah, sending I do with my wife. Well, because it's talking about color palettes, because this is a podcast, the audience can't quite see what we're wearing today. Yeah. And Lewis is wearing, everyone, well, why could you describe Robert to the audience? Lewis is wearing. So we're all in very carkey-esque. You're a very carkey-esque. Yeah, very carkey. He's fucking captain beige. He looks like captain beige. He looks like Border Patrol. Yeah, he's Border Patrol Freddie. Yeah, all your messing is an ice patch. Yeah. I'm in very much green, green from head to toe. My shoes are green, my pants are green, my under top is green, my over top is green. And Lewis is the standout here with a pink, half, not a quarter zip, but a quarter button. Quarter popper. Quarter popper. Chubby stock. With a kangaroo pouch, multi-colored, hieroglyphic-esque pattern on his belly.

13:19Was that close? It's also reversible. And inside is a baby blue color fleece with pink accents. All that's missing is your pink fluxes right now. Yeah. I mean, the bottom half is, is carkey. Is respectable, you know? Is African. Johnson, Johnson, green shorts. Jim Greens on the shoes. My careers are on, I'm a Jim Greens. Everyone wearing Jim Greens right now. Yeah, Jim Greens. Jim Greens all around. Shout out to... Business downstairs, party at top. Shout out to Jim Greens, who got us Jim Greens. Wearing Keri Conservation Fund hats. We're moving to film rhinos and Gary Keri Conservation. We're continuing this work right now, the Rhino Docu series for South Africa. Jackie Wearing one of our burlabo hoodies. Very nice. It's very comfortable. Black camera, very comfortable. I did recommend it. Cool. What underwear are you wearing? That's also origins foundation. Oh my god, don't let them know. We don't release the camera and these yet.

14:20Yeah, yeah. The origins foundation phone. Exactly, we all wear it. So we've all reminded that Robbie is up. I asked the entire time. That's pretty good. That's pretty good thinking on this part right there. So we're here in South Africa right now. We are four days in to about a 16 day piece to finish our Rhino Docu series. We started it with Gary Kelly last year. And yeah, we're trying to tell a different story here with our Rhino Docu series. A Rhino story tied to private lands, public lands and poaching. And we filmed a Rhino hunt. Yeah, we have an aircraft going over right now. We're sitting in the bush right here in North-West of Tubby's and B. Are we finishing it this trip? Because I thought we still got to go to Namibia. That's a separate Docu series. We're going to make a separate film with that one in Namibia.

15:20So South Africa is going to be its own standalone. No, I think we talked about South Africa being a standalone. Namibia being a standalone and potentially most in Beak being a standalone. And then very recently though, we did discuss building a much larger one piece. Yeah, a merger of all of them. A merger of all of them. Be the editable edits, Freddie. Yes, the piece. Well, you've actually not edited documentaries, are you? You're obviously your editing background is very much sort of like shorter. Yeah, my background is more shorter. You would probably say hype stuff, which is kind of fast. And tries to get people hooked on things. But I like stuff to breathe the best and want to go into a little bit more long form stuff. I did. In my footsteps, documentary. Yeah, and I'll give you kudos there because obviously the first the first cut we saw of in my footsteps was terrible. But that's because it was done in a very short amount of time.

16:23No, no, no, it was, but then we gave you feedback. And we're like, no, this is what we want the style to be like. And literally the second edit we got was 180 degrees from that first one. It was awesome. It was awesome. And the delivery of a definal piece that we did at SCI this year with Larry Bell in front of the audience and whatnot was the entire room was crying. The entire room was crying. Good. It was great. Great. It raised a bunch of money for the Amy Bell Charities Foundation. You couldn't have asked for it. It did very well online. I think we're at like 120,000 views. Oh wow. 125,000 views of it. Oh cool. Yeah, so congrats, Freddie. Thank you. So yeah, that's got got me a bit of taste for some long form stuff. And I think with these two guys, this we're going to help help me out with exploring a bit more of that. And I think you've got the style for it. Like there's some these environmental investigative docker's now that we're moving into. I showed Jack. There's another editor in New Jersey that we've been working with,

17:24who now has it looks like he's either found a graphics package or he's built them out of for data and for graphs of data and how data moves across time and whatnot. Oh, okay. And his name is Sam Rivera. And I think Sam will be of a super complement to you guys and your edit, your bigger edit and plug it. Sam in for these plugins for specific data and graphics. If Sam can save me having to go on higher people on Fiverr, I will fly out to America and I will kiss him on the lips. Like, you know, I will do that because he like that is your biggest frustration. I was it the graphics and animation and maps and stuff I get has been your biggest band of your existence. Yeah, there's so much to be able to talk to someone properly and get it sorted out would just be a game changer. So he's always Sam. I'm coming for you. You don't like foreigners. Huh? Sam, don't I? For honor. You don't like foreigners. I don't like people on Fiverr regardless of their nationality. He's a huge amount of hate for everyone.

18:27Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a word for the... So this week has been obviously I think the most controversial. Would you say the most controversial thing we filmed? Probably. It's more or less controversial than Elephant Hunt. I think it's more... We have already filmed a rhyme. You think it's more controversial? Well, we haven't technically for us. Not in the way that like me watching it and what not. Oh yeah, you weren't there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's more controversial. I think a Rhyna Hunt is more controversial than Elephant Hunt. Yeah. It's quite... Yeah. I would agree. There's less of them. There's way less of them. You know, there's only like... Gosh, I hope... I think there's only 20, 22,000 Rhyna. Versus half a million Africans from Elephants. You know, they're the very, very... You know, limited and maybe a South Africa. It holds like 80% of the Rhyna population if not more. Are they poached more than Elephant? Or is that a hard question because there are so few of them... Gosh, there is a good question. I think if you took it on a population-wide estimate...

19:31Yeah, it's a tacitabase. Absolutely. We'll take your phone off there. Thank you. Yeah, I would say from a percentage-based from a population definitely poached more than Elephants. I was thinking about this earlier when you were talking about the Rhyna Horn. We just filmed that talking head you did with the... about 500 rounds with the Rhyna Horn San XC. Because obviously this docu-series exploring the Rhyna is poaching private ownership, state ownership, etc, etc. And obviously private ownership leads to hunting, which leads to... Doesn't always lead to hunting, but... Doesn't necessarily know, but obviously we're looking at it from their leading to hunting perspective. And then you were talking obviously about legalising the Rhyna Horn trade. But then what are the parallels you can draw with the ivory trade? Because it wasn't the Rhyna Horn and ivory banned at the same time. Very much the same time. Yeah. So why has poaching of elephants significantly decreased?

20:33And the... Obviously because this ivory was used throughout probably more so than Rhyna Horn. So you have this huge use case for ivory. So not only... Well, there's been a replacement of the use case of ivory. So ivory was very much, in the 1700s, 1800s, when you look at the statistics of how much ivory left Africa. The numbers will astound you. Yeah, back. Because of the... Like thousands of... Thousands of... Tons of ivory leaving multiple ports, Mombasa, Portuguese, East Africa, you name it like thousands of tons. And it pretty much was fueled by three things as I understand it from Paul Hubbard. Combs, Pianachese, and Billion Balls. Well, were they made of ivory? Yeah. I thought they were washed down. No, and so those three things now have had better replacements Yeah. For the use of ivory.

21:35So back in the day there was no resource commodity for those three things. Now there's something that's better than ivory and cheaper than ivory. So what you're saying there was an industry export 100,000 percent. There's no industry export. There's not necessarily an industry export for rhino horn. Correct. It's a status. Status, status, status, and collectives. Correct. So, whereas obviously you would have all that stuff for elephant as well though. Because people were doing scrimshaw, iris-crimshaw. There's like ivory, ivory knife handles, ivory sword handles. Sure, but I don't think it has the same status as a rhino horn. So someone wouldn't wear a little rectangle sort of tablet of an ivory around their neck. No, it would wear the rhino. Correct. Interesting. So that to me that's the difference make it. The rhino horn, a lure, and medicine and whatnot or whatever people use it for has been consistent over time and has actually had spikes over time

22:38as sort of generational wealth or different generations come into play that have either increased wealth or less wealth or the status symbol of the rhino horn means more to them or less to a generation. Also, because there are more elephants over a wider, you know, spread of countries. The same, even if it was the same, even if it was poached at the same rate as rhinos, it would be sort of diffused over a wider area in a larger population. Yeah, and I think the other thing when you poached elephants with people poached elephants, maybe today they're sort of individualistic from a poaching perspective because you don't see the massacres occurring anymore. But like in the 2000s, 2000, you know, even just the break of 2010, you had the massacres, like 10,000 elephants done. But that was for ivory. That was for ivory, yeah. Yeah. But that's what it means. So if there was that much poaching for ivory, what has happened in elephant regulation,

23:41elephant hunting, elephant ownership, because it's even harder to own elephants. Like a rhinos, we're in a place that's at the 8,000 hectares, right? Yeah. You can have rhinos, rhinos not going to break through the fence. If you tried to keep elephants on this land, elephants would break through the fence, they'd be like, I want to go over there. There's no way you can stop them. Like we've seen that in the past. Yeah, I'll poke you in. But elephant poaching isn't a private land issue. No, it's not. But what I'm saying is like, what stop the demand in... That's crazy. ...what stop the demand in ivory? That kind of fell off a cliff. Because when I was in Zimbabwe, I was doing that leopard hunt. And I was with Adam Goeson. And he was telling me that obviously we came across a big drying bed for meat. So we were in Makuti. So Makuti's no one lives there. And so in the wet season, no one's there at all, Tetsi flies, whatever, all that stuff. So no one is going in there for any reason,

24:42which obviously gives your poachers free reign. They can go in there camp out. They'll poach in the wet season. But he told me they're not poaching elephants for ivory. They're... For meat. It's opportunistic poaching for meat. Because they're going right. We need to come up with this much meat to sell. Yeah. And if you see an elephant, well, that's like... They're not obviously... They're not butchers. They're not looking for a wagyu beef. Yeah. They're looking for just meat. Yeah. So I think it's difficult, you know, to... Obviously you have a lot more tonnage from an ivory perspective to get the same amount of money as a single rhino horn. It then is difficult to move. So has it also... And also you have to smack a lot of elephants. And that is... In terms of like presence and you can't do it quietly, it's very much a disruptive kind of poaching activity. It's not clean, they're still in... And there's also national defense now, you know, in Botswana, for instance, like the NDF, the national defense force is involved in anti-poaching. And so they'll shoot to kill. Yeah.

25:43Yeah. But then that's a demand issue. So that doesn't... That doesn't answer the demand question. Because if the demand is there, regardless of how difficult the activity is, someone will... People will be doing it. So... And that's not necessarily stopping the demand. By how difficult it is to source, if anything would increase the status and increase the demand. So it's just a question, I... It's a great question. I don't know. I don't know why all of a sudden, we're not seeing... You're right, we're not seeing these like huge elephant ivory massacres. And 2010's not that long ago, right? Yeah. So it's... It's weird, it's weird. It's weird. Yeah. What has changed, you know, have they... Have they been better at finding it in through the gang networks? And, you know, and then why can't they do that with Rhino Horn, etc. I mean... I think Rhino Horn, again, it's just... It's so clandestine. Well, it's smaller. Smaller, it's easier to move. It's more difficult. And it's not like...

26:44When they do a Rhino Horn bust, it's not 40 Rhino horns. You know, it's two or three. But also there's... You know, the motivation for Rhino Horn being non-industry based, which obviously can mostly be replaced by synthetics and plastics these days, not you said, Robbie. But because it's jewelry based, because it's not just jewelry based, it's jewelry based with... Like a cultural tilt to it as well. These places, like it's inbuilt in some of their cultures to want to give this to a 16-year-old, you know, a knife with a Rhino Horn, and stuff like that. Because there's a cultural element, I think it makes it even harder. If the elephant was mainly for industrial, means and for actual products, that's far easier to subvert than something that's like built into somebody's culture somewhere. Yeah, the idea... Like, for instance, this is how the whole Rhino Horn trade argument has been couched to me. There is a very large element on Rhino Horn

27:48that is tied to status symbol. Okay, because you have Rhino Horn, you're the big boss. And so walking into business meetings, there's a Rhino Horn sitting on the desk. Or you put a Rhino Horn on the desk in a meeting. Yeah. Or you know, you put a Rhino Horn on your mantle. And so if you legalized Rhino Horn trade, then you would think that the price would go down, because it'd be a... It's a supply-demand economic equation that all of a sudden all four of us, if I was the boss and I had Rhino Horn, all of a sudden all four of us could have Rhino Horn. It's the same argument as a Rolex and the Ferrari. Yeah, yeah. Like, one of you have a Rolex, we all treasure a Rolex. Well, a Rolex really is in a Rolex, if everybody can have a Rolex, right? Yeah, but that's where, if you're drawing parallels with the Rolex market, Rolex will artificially limit the supply.

28:50One of the arguments would be, obviously, if you legalize Rhino Horn trade, so these guys in the Mibiae, wherever there's Rhino, so Africa, they've got mountains of Rhino Horn. Correct. If they make it available immediately, they're losing out on the black market price. Because... So illegal, the illegal, the back-market price disappears? Yeah, so if they suddenly have hundreds of tons available to sell, then yeah, everyone who wants a Rhino Horn in Asia can go, I want a Rhino Horn. And everywhere else as well, in Europe, if you want to Rhino Horn, by Rhino Horn. But that's going to drop the price. So then the argument for funding, for funding the... How low does the price go in that scenario for it to then counter the argument, which is this could fund conservation? Is what you're saying? Yeah, basically. But then from a Rolex perspective, you then have to have... You then have to have an economist in place,

29:51don't you, to say like, well, guys, we're going to... So, I have an interesting point about the whole demand and supply side of things. Because we're assuming that, once Horn is legalized, that you're dealing with the same sized market, therefore you make it more available, therefore the price drops. But there is going to be a cohort of society, not just in those Asian countries. Like, if I could legally buy sustainably sourced Rhino Horn for something decorative, I probably would. Yeah. Because it's cool. Yeah. Because when I know my money is going into, like, actually, conserving rhinos, I will do it. So I think the market would also grow. And that might counteract parts of the price decline. Because you are going to attract more people if suddenly they're not breaking the law and a match. Yeah, but you're not going to spend... The average person is not going to spend a lot of money. You're not going to spend the equivalent of 60 grand a kilo. Well, just a penny. For a piece of... Yeah, it depends what you're doing, there, isn't it? But that's the price of gold.

30:53Like, you're talking about a gold ring. How much is an 18-karat gold ring? A few hundred. So, you know, and that's like a few grams. Like, you're not going to have a rhino horn ring, are you? So, you're going to have to... But like, the equivalent in a piece of necklace, is minuscule. Well, I don't know how much... Like, you say you're a tablet that's three inches by one inch. How much does that weigh? Like, you're not going to be spending 30 grand on that. It's not going to be that heavy. Like, you're going to be spending about a hundred, nearly a thousand. Suddenly, it becomes way more... Yeah, but you're not going to... You're not going to buy... You might do. There certainly would be a market that would expand out that would generate some sort of decorative rhino horn ornaments, jewelry, those kinds of things. If it became legal, I would assume. But it's one of those things. It's not shiny. You can't easily work it into like a ring or... If you take... If you took a lump of gold or silver,

31:55you can work that into a brooch. You know, you've got the industry for that. To manipulate that raw material into something like jewelry exists. Like, rhino horn, you'd have to have... It'd be like a gemstone cutter or something. Or someone would be carving it. Yeah, it'd be carving it. You'd only be able to do certain amounts of bits. And then you have the waste material from that. So if you made, for example, a ring out of rhino horn, you're going to have a lot of waste material. So then that gets priced into it as well. So I don't think... It depends on the market. I mean, if the medicinal market is still there and you can... You know, you take a... If someone closes down a jewelry shop and you take the carpet, they spent 20 years doing jewelry on top of... To certain people, they will get you like... half a kilo of gold out of that piece of carpet. Like, it's the same thing. If you've got powder that you're making from your cart... Like, yeah, cool, siphon it down the medical route and it still has value. But I just think the market would inevitably get bigger because the illegality of it, whilst some people like it and it adds more value to it.

32:59For others, it is a no-go. And so I think you would end up with more uptake. But just the... Yeah, but what I'm saying is it's not going to... You're not going to... That's not going to hold the price up. Well, we don't know. It's... There's no way we can say either way because we don't know how much it would end up. I think that's the major, major, major unknowns, right? It's just like... You can't really test the market. You can't really test it because it's like... It's either in or out... Which is unfortunate. Could they put some kind of like... When it comes to them legalizing it, they can put conditions on it, surely. Like, this is the worst case scenario. This is the best case scenario. If after 12 months, 18 months, 24 months, the worst case scenario comes along, it switches back again to what it was. Well, I would also assume that there's a lot of... Obviously, very smart people thinking about this. What's smarter than us? Way smarter than you. Thanks, sir. And Lewis. And me. And Freddie. But... Like, I do believe if there was going to be a legalization of Rhinohorn,

34:00they would need to have a regulatory trade mechanism in which there is a centralized trade regulatory body, just like diamonds. And then they... They... The buyers approach the regulatory body and the regulatory body approaches the sellers and this... Yeah, or your certification like organic in... In produce. You have organic certified and they have to meet these requirements. And to then your point, Jack. So then the outfit is the people who have the Rhinohorn are stamped Rhino A++ or... Correct. They'd even have to be and not just from the regulatory perspective, from the buyers perspective, they'd also have to be some form of authentication, 100% because with the rise of something, with the rise of... That's what I could have. What do you mean? That's like... That goes into the microchip element of it. They're all every legally... Yeah, but... Rhinohorn is microchip... Is every... Is every tablet going to have its own microchip? Like, or is there some way? No, be the same way as they do like alligator, right? So alligator is probably the most highly regulated

35:04traded resource in the world. But you don't... Like when you buy your alligator wallet out of Louis Vuitton, it doesn't have a tag from a Cytese tag. But that skin is totally traceable back to the original skin that had the original Cytese tag on it. So approved trusted retailers, like if you buy a hip from a shed on the side of the road, it's probably fake or illegal? Yeah, it'd be a chain of custody associated with that Rhinohorn and that's DNA sequence of that Rhinohorn to whatever materials are created from it. It's import as an export, isn't it? That's the deal with the Cytese tag. Correct. Correct. All the... From an alligator perspective, it's the... It's the... What would the Cytese be? Not the... The artisan, essentially. The one who takes the raw material and makes it into a usable product. I actually hope we get to see that because it would also be...

36:05I mean, it would put an explosion of controversy and varying opinions from around the world. You'd probably have some countries like you have... Or even some states, like within the US. We would just say Bennett. We're not having it. We're not having it. Legal internationally, but like for New York. Yeah, you know. We're not having it. And so they'd be... But what it would do is create so much buzz and communication. Yeah, but it would... It would really raise the whole sort of... Profile of the issue. A lot. Where they just keep it... Keep sweeping it under the... Pop under the carpet and hoping it goes away in the next 70 years. Then good luck. Like they do with elephant numbers in Botswana. But I don't know, I think... What does... I think it's weird. The only real benefit that you can say is it is... Like, say, raising money for conservation. And that only really works if the Rhino horn price stays high. So what I was saying before you paused me, or be... Was... Like in a Rolex scenario...

37:06Where Rolex only make a million pieces every year. And that's it. It's like, you know, a set amount of pieces every year. You have a tonnage of export per... per year. Like Zingham back to a regular true body where he say, Right, all of you guys want Rhino. You can buy it. But we're only going to be exporting. You know, you take a tally of... Right, Salafiq has 100... 100, you know, 1000 tons of Rhino. We're only going to allow you to export 10 tons a year. Now, suddenly, we've got a 10-year supply, which holds up the price. So, but then, you know, that's like... That's if that doesn't meet the supply, all you're going to do is... You're still... You're not going to eliminate poaching, because once that supply gets hit, you're probably going to... You're going to go back to... Well, this guy wants a Rhino horn right now. Off you go, Chuck. Has it killed me a Rhino horn? Has anyone ever estimated what the demand actually is based on the amount of poaching that happens?

38:06Well, I'm sure the guys that are... There's a group called Rhinoomics that are trying to set up this... This regulatory trade mechanism. I'm sure very smart individuals that are very tied in with the economic sides of things. And then, there's another guy in South Africa, Michael T. Sass Rolews, who's a huge economist, and he's been heavily involved in the economy of the Rhino horn space. I don't think anybody has actually done a market analysis on what is the actual demand. Like, if more was put on in the space, legally, would it be absorbed based on the demand? Yeah. I don't know. And how long could, with the amount of Rhino's that we have, who might be able to contribute to that supply, like, how long could we... And what that export number would have to be to ensure that it was sustainable and the ones... There's a lot of moving parts in there, because it's like, you know, like you said, in that talking head that Rhino is Rhino wants renewable, but then what rate? Two to three kilos of 18 months.

39:09And then so, so realistic, but then how do you... From an animal welfare perspective, how, then how often do you cut the horn off? Every two to three, every 18 months. So you're just farming two kilos of slices? You know, that's a bit... That's a lot of trouble based on what... Because we've done the Rhino... So that's the other thing that you've... You've done the trauma. Yeah, sort of. To the Rhino's being chased by helicopters, darted the risk to them because they're in 18 months. Well, but that goes to Denine's point when we're squawked to Denine, Denine from Namibia, she is anti-deep-haunting Rhino's because she was saying not necessarily touching them and causing them stress, whatever, it was more down to the fact that, you know, if you chopped... If you chopped your hand off and went, oh, but it's fine, well, we're going to chop your hand off, but it's going to regrow in 18 months. You've now got to walk around with one hand. That's going to significantly impact your life. And your behavior. From a Rhino's perspective, if you're chopping the horn off,

40:10now that male Rhino, if that's a male Rhino, that male Rhino now can't... It doesn't have the same... I've been trope the issue with... ...the analogy because if... Yes, if you've left Rhino's on the property that... with horns intact and you've taken my horn away, from a protection, fighting, perspective, yes, I'm now disadvantaged. Yeah. But if everybody's horns are gone, everyone's in the same boat. So there is no real disadvantage. And a hand is something that you use. Like a horn on a Rhino is not something that is used for feeding, for doing anything but fighting and defending. But wouldn't it... But wouldn't it not try and sharpen that horn if it was by... So if that process is that it goes through, though when it's removed, it's not going through those processes anymore. And that might change its behavior. Even something as simple as just sharpening it. It's not going through those processes. I can't say that it won't, but I haven't seen any literature or any science or any evidence to that fact.

41:14And the fact... The other to the counter, the number one threat for Rhino's... two Rhino's is poaching. And the number one scientifically determined instrument to mitigate poaching is dehorning. There's no other mechanism. No other instrument. No other piece of technology that reduces Rhino poaching better than dehorning the Rhino. Because simply you're just taking... That's fine, that's fine. You're taking the value part away. Yeah, but what we're... What I was saying about the cutting off of Rhino's horn every two months, like that Rhino never gets to experience its potential horn size. True. You know? True, true. But then... Because what you're saying is it's like, let's stop the poaching by legalizing the horn trade, right? And a dead Rhino, fine.

42:15You know, that's never... That doesn't need its horn anymore. A hunted Rhino doesn't need its horn anymore. Sell it. If you want to sell it, if you want to give it as a trophy trophy, whatever, you want to sell it, sell it. But then a live Rhino, because what Denise saying is obviously it stunts their confidence when it's... If it's up against other males... Agreed. You know, because at the same time, it will have an effect on dynamics, because you can't go, right, we're going to chop everyone's horn off at the same time. Because if one hasn't grown more, so then you're going to have this staggered dynamic of males going, well, I've got a bigger horn this year, so you're my bitch this year, and then that gets you chopped off, and then it flips to the other side. Sure. And then what Denise was saying is, well, when you chop the horn off a Rhino, it affects their confidence and their character because they don't have this massive sword face. That they can stab things with. Yeah, I mean, ironically, if you were thinking about this from a purely commercial perspective, you would want year-on-year supply. You wouldn't want to go 18 months without any cash flow. So you would have whether they're separated or not.

43:17No, but that's a surely you'd have to write those on rotation. Yeah, it's just like the beef market, right? You'd constantly have horned coming off, but you wouldn't have to do it every year. Because you've got enough Rhino out there that you just selectively harvesting them over... Yeah, yeah, you'd have a sequence. Like a staggered crotch rotation. To your point earlier, I think we've all just danced around, but have essentially all articulated if the legal horn trade was created. I think you would have a gradation in the market, just like you have from a diamond perspective, clarity and carrot size and whatnot. Yeah. I think there would be demand for various levels in the Rhino horn space. And I think different people would meet those different markets. So for instance, this place we're at with the Rhino hunt. I think you'd get a premium price on a very large intact horn that's never been dehorned.

44:18Where in then you would have the front horn versus the back horn. There'd be different prices in between the different horn sizes, whether it's been dehorned one time or multiple times or you're selling discs, Rhino horn discs, which comes from a dehoning exercise. I think all of those things would factor in to a trade mechanism. And I think that there would be a price structure set to it. This might be inappropriate, but I just thought of a really cool shot. No, product out of a Rhino horn, which is a whole Rhino horn. But you know, like a phrase going to front up me for this, like place settings on a dinner table, right? And you slice it all the way down. And your smaller ones are your glass coasters, and then you've got plate ones. And then hear me out. When you haven't got people in there, you stack them all up in size and you've got your full ride-ahorn on the middle of the table. Friddy, what do you think about that? Don't invite me around for dinner, please. So Friddy, legally bought a premium car, but... You don't have to frame the car, but...

45:19You are not a big hunter. No. Hunter, a couple of birds. No, I've only shot some squirrels and some rabbits. Okay. I've seen a lot of them. Okay. I've seen a lot of them. With an air-eye for younger. Yeah. What do you think? What do I think? Yeah, let me hear it. I think... There seems to be a really fine balance that you've got to find in terms of with this supply of horns that is there, and trying to keep that value so that you're providing something for conservation, but then also trying to... As Lewis is saying, trying to make sure that there's not room for the black market to flourish as well is a very fine balance there. It just seems impossible to know what the appetite for it's going to be if it's legalized. And I don't know how many people are going to go for it, but... As you said... In your brain right now, knowing...

46:20You've come into this very, very new... Would you as an individual looking at it from what you've seen as far? Would you legalize it or keep it illegal? Big question. I just don't see what else there is to do at the moment, and it seems to have been a problem for so long. That it could just be worth... It could be just worth a punth and just trying to give it a go and see. And as Jack said, if it doesn't... If things get as bad as it possibly could be, then we might have to revert back. But at the moment... I think that's a great point. I think that people think that this is just like, Oh, you make this decision, you make this trade decision. And that's it. When you can go the opposite if it doesn't work. Well, I think what people are probably scared of is it goes,

47:20you go, right, we make the decision, then there's an absolute free for all on Rhiners. Pouching increases because now they don't have to worry about... Because there's a void to fill, right? So there's a demand. There's a massive void to fill. How big is that hole? And can the current Rhinohorn that's in custody fill that hole? If it can't... That's a free throw on the guys get cordoned out. Well, it's legal. I can have this Rhinohorn as legal now. Yes, and now poachers, all they have to worry about is getting caught killing the Rhinoh. Because once they have the horn, how do you prove that it's illegal? So, you know, and once there's a legal structure, you know, you can forge paperwork. You can forge microchips. Just like Rolex. And the, you know, the Asian market where the demand is strongest, like those guys are pretty, pretty adept at electronics and whatnot. So, what I think what people are probably scared of is that they're being an absolute

48:20massive increase in poaching that now slams the Rhinoh population to a minuscule level. So, basically, all the hard work that's been done to get them to this point is now wiped away in one fell swoop. And if anything, you get even further behind. And it's ten steps back because of this little loophole that people can forge paperwork, get it into the main, because, you know, your people in China that really want Rhinohorn, are they going to go, hmm, oh, no, I'm not going to buy that Rhinohorn because you haven't got the right paperwork, then I'm going to give a shit. I think it Freddy's opinion is really quite interesting, though, because all we're doing here with this documentary and in the run-up to this, this decision is to try and show people the information. Right. Like, you are not pro big trophy hunter. No, I know. Not at all. But you've still come to that conclusion. It's one of those things that people think you just shouldn't,

49:22obviously, you shouldn't hunt a Rhinoh, but when you haven't been to Africa and you're just completely out of it, you think that Rhinohs are protected, you think, you know, there's a whole, there's a lot of money in place, and there's a whole system in place to protect the Rhinohs, and that's how it is, that there's always just, there's endless money that's there to help protect these big animals, but there isn't, but it's, yeah, it's, as an outsider coming in, it is a difficult thing to- Is the reality different to your initial perceptions? Yes, but I know, you know, I've only just been here, and we're going to move on to other places in this whole, and it's all expanding. I'll take on more information to be able to come up with a bit more of an articulate perspective on it, but here, some, you, when you even just being on the ground just for a few days, you just realise that the issue is so much more complex than you thought, and as you said, Robbie earlier, like there are just,

50:23there's so many questions that need to be laid out onto the table, and people just need to sort of put aside different opinions, perspectives, and really try and come up with the best answer for these Rhinohs, because preserving them is what's important, but it's just, it's a really difficult. It's so new ones. I think as well, a lot of people don't realise the new ones in conservation in general, because it's like, like Ruan was telling us the other night, he can't have females here, because he hunts males. So if he suddenly put females in here and had a stable population, a replenishing population of Rhinoh, he said he would only be able to have one male, because then suddenly they'd fight each other. So he has to choose between having multiple males on the property, so that he can sell multiple hunts and make more money to keep buying Rhinoh to have five, six Rhinohs on the property. For people beyond that, take one step further, for people beyond that,

51:24for them to have enough value to continue to produce Rhinoh, because Ruan is interested in buying Rhinohs. Yeah, but like, you know, he can't have his own population of Rhinoh, because then suddenly he's only got one male. He can maybe bring in another couple satellite males or something that you could hunt, but then people don't want to hunt satellite males, they want to hunt the male. After it's done, it's breeding, after it's through its prime, but they're, you know, so then he only has to have one or two males on the property, and then he can hunt one Rhinoh, what, every 10 years. So he's not breeding, so then you have to have the breeders in place in somewhere else, yeah, it's such a nuance, you can't just have Rhinoh on the property, and that's it. Like, I'm saving a pair of Rhinohs onto my Rhinohs. The thing is that Blue Mimeine actually, I had no idea about it, is the time frame associated with Rhinohs. You're saying elephant, isn't it? It can so long. It's a half, yeah, it's a half of an elephant's life, so that Blue Mimeine, because everybody in

52:27this system, like these planes game systems, you're in parlor, you're young, it'll cut out somebody's mic. You're right. I'm going to win cover on it. Yeah, all good. So we don't need to, you're speaking anyway. Should we just take over? Yeah, I'll be like, I'll be like, I'm out, Roddy. Unplug Robby's mic, Franny? Yep. It's, you know, in this game of wildlife conservation, you know, when you get a bit beyond the impala that's a three year animal, on most of your planes game animals, which are three to six year animals, Akudu, mature Akudu's 10 years, 11 years, Buffalo, 10 to 14 years old. And that's, that's like red stacks and elk, right? Yeah. They're similar. Yeah. And then, but Rhinohs, there's a Rhinoh bull that was hunted, it was 25, 26. I don't think there's any, like where did that Rhinohs start? Number one, where did it live out the last 20 years? And why did it live out the last 20 years? Instead of being, you know, killed for me, killed for me, or kept around.

53:32Like why did he kept around for 20 to 23 years? For then Ruan to say, I'm going to buy that Rhinoh, put it here, keep it a couple of years, for the potential of somebody to hunt it. I mean, it's kind of juxtaposed with the fact that people think that hunting Rhinohs is not much, like, oh, you're not really committing to Rhinohs, you're just using them for money. So we'll know someone has had to protect that for decades, decades, like as a commitment before you can even get, assuming that it's still legal to do so in another 20 years time. Yeah. Because with the political landscape shifting as it does, there's no guarantee that your big investment now is going to pay off in 25 years. That's crazy. That's a gamble. No, and then you've, and I think also one of the things is what, as Ruan explained to me on a podcast, because everyone thinks you come in, somebody comes in, shoots Rhinohs 65,000 bucks, 65,000 bucks just goes into Ruan's back pocket. Well, he's already in, he's already good, he's already debited his account

54:33for that 65,000, and the debits have been fencing, electrified fencing, double fencing. Yes, this year he's got great rains with great grass, but South Africa is not, is not known for amazing grass, you know, constantly year after year, it's known for droughts, it's a semi-arid environment here. So those years where there is no vegetation out there, he has to supplementary feed all the animals, including the rhinos that be decades of custodianship, which cost money. And so again, I didn't press him on it, but what is his profit at the end of the day? You know, after 65,000, Rhinohs? Well, I think as well it's 10 grand. Yeah, but then that's where the model of hunting outfitter chip comes in, isn't it? It's like, South Africa, especially, I don't think it's the same in North America and the UK and Europe. But, you know, in Africa, it's coming on Rhinohs 65 grand, and when you hear it,

55:34it's like, hey, look at this scrum cap buffalo. No, sure, sure. You know what I mean? So you're typically, yes. So you're potentially like, yeah, your rhino is not necessarily your money maker. Your money maker, it's your draw. Because what we're getting people through the door, the big wallet, hunters through the door. Because it's 65 grand. But then common sense says, if you've got 65 grand to spend on a hunt, you've probably got a spare 10 to slot on a buffalo somewhere. And buffalo, he probably makes a very good marginal buffalo. Maybe, yeah. Yeah. That's the green grosser talking right there, isn't it? Milk and eggs. Yeah. Yeah, milk and eggs and pick up the chocolate at the cashier. Exactly, exactly. And you make your money on the chocolates. That was 10 years of my life. Tell you now, rinse the few people for one pound chocolate bars at the counter. Ferry, what did you think about the idea of somebody hunting a rhino? Once you saw a rhino for the first time, you'd never seen a rhino.

56:34You knew it'd been in Africa. There's some time. No, I saw a rhino on his first bloody day. My first day saw the rhino come out, say hello. Yeah, it was difficult. I saw the rhino film the rhino and then, you know, when you realise that someone's going to go and hunt on the rhino the next few days, it's very difficult. Especially when you hear the age as well, you know, it's a 25-year-old thing. You know, it's only a few years younger than me. And it's... Milk. Come on, be honest. A few years. Yeah, six years. Six years. Six years, yeah, yeah. I'll sell that. I should never told you my age. I look young. It's a payroll, though. And so it's... Yeah, it's very... It's really... If you're not involved in hunting, it's very difficult to see why there's really any... Why would anybody even want to do it? Yeah, it's, you know, obviously, if you eat meat, you can understand hunting certain animals, but something as big as that has lived as long as that.

57:37And someone's looked after it and it's managed to survive all that time. And it's like... Well, it's not managed to survive, though, is it artificially been looked after? Right. So it's not like it's artificially... Yeah, it's not like it's been out in the wild and kind of dodged bullets and dodged animals and managed to like scrape an existence. It's been... It's been looked after its whole life, so... Yes, but that's not sort of... You don't therefore get to then have it's life in your hands and then be like, well, I can sort of... You know, a mentor lived this long, so I can then decide when to... Probe a little bit in you. It's interesting, the point. Yeah, it's interesting, the... You talk to... Danine, we keep going back to Danine because she's such a good example of this. She said she sees... That's cool. She's as cool as her. She sees rhinos exactly as she sees an impala. Which is tough. Which is tough for somebody to swallow.

58:38Tough for somebody to swallow. Like an organism is an organism. Like, why do we see a fly on your windscreen as any different from a rhino? Obviously, there is a whole thing to do with, you know, scarcity and the end of the day, like an animal life is an animal life. Which is quite interesting. You know, especially if you don't have a... They eat this rhino. If you don't issue... If you don't have an issue with shooting an impala, like if you asked a general audience, I was actually thinking about this. Have a general audience and go, okay, I'm going to just start going through a list of animals. You tell me when I hit a break point where you're just like, uncomfortable with us killing that animal. And you started a mouse. I had to... They had a billboard about this. They had the billboard and then it went from a cow. With it from a cow. A cow, all the way through to a horse, there was a dog. There was a cat and it was like, where do you draw the lion and somebody graffiti dogs? Literally, just drew the lion. The way that the order they'd put it in was like all farm animals and then it hit horse and then it was pets. So someone just went up there and drew a lion,

59:39like right before the horse. It was like, it was like, where do you draw a lion at food? And someone just drew a lion after they're like, that's been a piece of meat. Well, that's the... I was like, right here. I was speaking to an Italian not long ago. And they said, they... What were you speaking to a Italian for? Just talking about stuff. Just about life. And they've said, you know, she was saying how, you know, they horse meat. Yeah. And how, you know, they were reaching... Oh, a female Italian. Why would you have been told there? He started as a he and then he switched to a she- No, did not. No, he did not. That's fate. That's... Ready is single and ready to mingle if anybody's... No, it's not. Isn't it a committed three-date relationship? Three-date relationship. It's hoped they're not listening to that. I don't think so. Number two, Bob Carson, a wilderness category. I've got... If there is into this, it's over. I've actually got a question that's burning my brain for you, really. Okay. Did you think that people were going to eat the rhino? Um... It wouldn't have surprised me because of the... What you've told me about elephants. Okay, so... Okay. But I wasn't... I bet you've asked a hundred people

1:00:40whether people eat rhino meat. 95 would say no. I reckon more would say no. How about a hundred? Depending on where you ask them. If you ask them in South Africa, you'd probably get a... Yeah, yeah, it's probably... Oh, you're right. You're maybe... You're maybe a 99, maybe even a hundred. But sorry, you went to the UK. But if I hadn't... I've known what I know about elephants, I would probably have said no. Yeah. Yeah. But sorry, we interrupt you. What was your Italian acquaintance talking about when you... We're just saying that they... You know, we were having this very same discussion, pretty much, of like how in the UK, the idea of eating horse meat was... It would terrify a lot of people because they liked them to try and jump over fences and break their necks rather than eat them. But in Italy, they... They love to... They eat and go to the supermarket and talking about wonderful recipes that use horse meat and she's like, you know, or... Or at least, you know, it's just... So, you know, it's... It's a cultural thing. It's the thing, you know. It was over there. They eat horse meat over here. It's just like the idea of it would be... It's horrifying to some people, so... I would just... I would just like to point out the one Freddy said.

1:01:42The listener, he did use hand gestures. The classic Italian hand gestures. He just... It would just subconsciously just happen. So, you knew her pretty well then, you could say if you're using a hand gesture. Tell us more about anything else. Anything else. Please take me off this topic, ASAP. Here's my phone, I'd buy. So, she likes horse... So, she likes horse polonies, isn't she? Who loves it? Horse ragu. Bit of red rum polonies. Yeah, it's... I like the fact that... Again, this is something that we can explore, like, and I'm glad that you've come in here and you're so open to having this conversation, Freddy, because Jack Lewis and I, you know, if we had just met, I don't think we could have this kind of in-depth, sort of thoughtful conversation about these really controversial topics. And I think the more controversial we get into things, elephants, rhinos, you know, we're working with wolves, we're working with horses. Because, you know, we have obviously a very sustainable use,

1:02:45hunting mindset to these things, and we come out with that mindset, but we also are very cognizant within ourselves in these very controversial topics to be like, whoa, like, we can't just dismiss somebody's opinion that just is... That's not... That's not cool. Like, hunting a rhino, they're in danger. That's not cool. You're not supposed to do that. Yeah. And I'd like to say, Freddy, we're not normally talking seriously on Robby's podcast. There's been a significant, significant lack of dwarf content. It's podcast. It's podcast. It's just... Have you just mocked because of me? No, no, no. No, it's not a short chat. It's not a short chat. For everyone listening, Freddy's six foot five, don't worry about it. Well, I'm very, very happy. Big hands. Big hands. It's a short stature. No, it's... Lewis is maturing in his podcasting. You know, we've been podcasting together for... five, six years. And if you went back to the original podcast and today,

1:03:47it's like a changed man. Really? He's been very serious. He's been quite a surprise watching him... watching him talk. Final words. I can put an accent on it. Final thoughts. It's... Bring an accent to, bear, please. Final thoughts. He's got a pick one first. What? Thought or accent? Accent. How offensive do I want to be? Accent before thought is generally how you operate. If I want to. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot to unpack here. And I think it's... maybe we need to... do more exploration. I love how your accent started African and a bit gay French. Became French. Yeah, there's... There's plenty of them in France, right? Jack? My accent's Jack, isn't it? No, final thoughts. He has no accents. Lewis's I accent, no? No, I don't do the accents. Final thoughts would be...

1:04:50I don't think that we've... really seen the downside to Rhino... of what's it? Ownership, custodianship, yet. I think we've been to places where there are good private systems set up. And we see the... the sort of the productive side of Rhino conservation. We haven't seen the degradation that happens when someone really focuses on an area, like Kruger, for example. So I'm really, really interested to see if we can find somewhere where we can... Well, we have... We have a slide. We have applied to... Yeah, we applied to Kruger to film. They sent me an email back saying, since you want to do film anti-poaching efforts, we can't approve that filming. And I've responded very respectfully and said, we didn't really want to film any anti-poaching. We just wanted to film interviews with two other section arranges. So we'll see what Kruger says coming back to that.

1:05:50But the angle breaks down and causes them to tell. You know, you've seen that content on our page with them. They've had multiple Rhino's poached on their property four in the last, like, 18 months. So, and Ruhana don't think's had it. Did you ask Franswell about that? He hasn't had anything. Hasn't had a single Rhino poached here. You know, down where we're going, Northern Cape, the three collective properties probably have had a dozen, maybe half a dozen Rhino's poached in 15 years. Yeah. They lose probably more Rhino's, two Rhino's killing each other. Then they do the poaching. That's just, I mean, which is we've been seeing that, we've been seeing that efficient security system working on these private places. But I'd like, I mean, efficient security system means lots and lots and lots and lots of money. Yes. But I want to see, my final thoughts are, I want to see somewhere where it isn't working. Well, I will say this, the places that it isn't working, like I spoke with Collar, in the strip from, in Quads of New Tell,

1:06:51from like Lady Smith down to Pongola, used to be, I think he said, 18 Rhino owners. And today there's three. Because it doesn't work for them. Yeah. They don't have the money to put in these huge security systems. And as a result, they get smacked and smacked and smacked. And then it becomes, and we can ask, you can ask Collar this, it becomes a, a risk to the family. Yeah. Like a risk to human life. And at that point, you're like, I'm out. I get, I take the Rhino's away. I do not want the attention that would result in me and my family coming in Homsway. Well, that's the other side of Rhino conservation, which we haven't even talked about. We've been talking about selling the horn and stuff. It's like, you know, you have to make, there has to be some reward in it, because some people are putting a target on their back. Yeah, agreed. I get a legit threat to human life. Yep. Yep. Freddie, final words. What I've seen from the, in hunting industries,

1:07:55but I'm not sure if this is necessarily the case in North America, but from what I've seen in Europe, there's always this, they seem like there seems to be this push to try and connect with the non-hunting public and get them to, to see the benefits of hunting and what it does for conservation. There's a lot that I didn't realize on the conservation side that hunting does especially financially, but there's just going to be, there's always going to be such a large amount of people, including myself, no matter what you say, no matter what you show, they're just never going to be convinced that hunting a Rhino is something that you should ever do. And I think that's going to be a very difficult thing to ever. Well, most people, most people are now of the opinion I made, that they're not trying to, not trying to sway that sort of like, that extreme, you're trying to get the 80% that are in the middle, which you've got, you're 20% with extreme views, and then you've got your 80% in the middle, which are like, you know, like you. No, I think Friddy is. But I think Friddy is.

1:08:55I think I should hunt a Rhino, you know, and then now, potentially, you know, you're probably like, maybe I don't think you should still, maybe don't think that people should hunt a Rhino, but you can see the benefits of it. And so you wouldn't necessarily be outspoken about it without more research. But I think what Friddy is saying is, and I've seen this, and, you know, my friends group even, is, you've got friends. Yeah, I believe it or not, I do. That 20% that really like would never change their minds, I think in the more controversial animal space, like Rhino's, that 20% may be more like 60%. Because, because it's just something that is, like even bigger, it's like, no, don't hunt that, that's endangered. But is that tied to, like Friddy said again, like Friddy's opinion on killing an Impala? You know, is that tied to food? Is that tied to consumption? Is that tied to normalism? I think it's tied to information, right?

1:09:57So I think Friddy, if you'd asked Friddy, before you knew anything, why would you be against hunting a Rhino? I think his, I don't want to put words in your mouth here, but it's an endangered animal. You shouldn't be hunting it. And I think the vast majority of people would say the same thing. And until educated to like what the system is, what's happening. Yeah, and I think there's a tie to the horn, like people would also think that hunting is, you know, if someone's hunting, they're probably trying to also hunt, because they just want that horn and they want what comes with the horn and how, you know, the status that comes with it no matter, you know, even though there's other certain cultures where it's much more, hold a lot more worth, I think a lot of people think that hunting Rhino, yeah, it's endangered and people are hunting it because they just want that horn, and they just want it as a trophy on their mantel piece. And it's, you know, and realise it comes as a result of that, right? Exactly. Yeah. But it was amazing. I've showed quite a few people that Botswana doc, and it's quite mental how much people go,

1:11:01oh, they ate it. And you go, yeah, like fucking the whole village turned up to chop it up with an axe. And they're like, oh, well that's all right there. If we leave a spot for five people, isn't it? Absolutely mental. It's like, white guy goes, kills a Rhino, it goes, kills an elephant. Oh, immediately evil bastard just wants the, just wants the, the tusks and fucking say he's killed a Rhino and he's like, yeah, but then it was eating. Oh, yeah, that's where it gets like, editing it in my footsteps, I've talked you mentioned, you see these kids talk about, you know, with, I've found, it was abolished tomorrow, what would happen to you, and then talking to you about what would happen if they didn't have that funding anymore. It's very difficult then to, you know, your perception of it does change when you, when you watch these documentaries because you read, there's just stuff that you realize that's going on behind the scenes and you just, and your opinion will shift. And that's again, it's just what information is being put out there. Yeah. Yeah. So we can all agree you're massively pro Rhino hunting then. For sure, I'm on one tomorrow. No, I'm not.

1:12:01I'm not. I'm just going to hold up. Don't help me. Robbie's got always got these. No, I haven't. Okay, we'll do this again. I've, what, let's do this round up again in two weeks. Two weeks. Oh, 10 days. In 10 days, once we've gone through the next three properties. I think we should do a podcast every day. Every day. No, thanks. No, thanks. We get funny, Lewis. See you later. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening, as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

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