ESPN's Brian Windhorst and Tim MacMahon in the studio (02.10.26)

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1:00This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen. Snacks. A stapler. The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security and pasquies, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started. ZPAPAL.COM slash protection terms. It is in need. You are Sam Edmund and J.J. Justinkins up until midday course here on S.N. mornings will J.J. I don't need to tell you this. But the S.N. family need to know that Brian Wienerst and Tim McMan are two of the biggest figures in the NBA industry as journalists and podcasters. And together, they host the jug and all. That he's the hoop collective on ESPN. All for as well. And I'm probably selling them a long way short. But Wendy Macau, that's how I'm going to introduce you. Because that's how we do it in Australia. You have to be there. Well done. Yes. Can we roll with that? Absolutely.

2:01We call him. His nickname is band McMan, because he has been banned from multiple arenas and banned from locker rooms and stuff like that. He's constantly getting banned from things. Always unlucky? Not well. You know, I throw wellbows. But so far it's been smooth sailing here in Australia. My first trip and haven't made any enemies yet. What you know about it. Well, hopefully, did you do the Rams stall preparation? We did fly in yesterday. Yeah. But we're going to stay for what they stay. I got to tell you. 36 hours. That really, really offended the Aussies that the Rams did that. Well, you know what I'm thinking? Well, it should have been the Rams fans, too, back in LA. Because it did. It worked out well. That didn't show us comments after, probably definitely. Oh, yeah. Double Danny, triple Danny, quadruple Dan. So I believe I call this a world tour though. For you guys, we're just one of the stops. No, you are the first stop. Oh, good. You're batting lead off. Happy dinner. Where, what's going on here? Yeah. So we're going to end up in Macau.

3:03They play NBA games every year in Macau, preseason games. The NBA season just started on Monday. This is training camp right now. There's no games. Next week, the games happen. And so I was with the Los Angeles Lakers on Monday. Tim was with the Oklahoma City Thunder, who the Champions two years ago. And we were going to end up in Macau and on the way, we said, hey, Melbourne and Manila, which is our next stop, they're kind of on the way. So, but we have ESPN Australia here. So we can come do some stuff here. Can I catch a United versus Kans Thai fans game tomorrow? And then Manila, I went to the, there was X, there is a world cup of basketball. Nobody cares about it. But it does exist. And it happened. The last time it happened was in the Philippines. And they're crazy about basketball. They're crazy. They consume basketball like Americans consume football. Like, like, Australia is consumed the NFL. It's they live in Breedit, which is amazing. Because it's 12 hours away. They can't follow up.

4:03But they're very, very online. And so, you know, 1% of our audience is in the Philippines, which is amazing because they're so small. Yeah, we've, we've got a bad history with the Philippines in basketball. We had a, sure, if you're familiar with the street fighting, that happened. Oh, yes. But between the Aussies and the Philippines, how did you two guys get together in terms of the podcast from different parts of the States and come through different pathways to get to where you're up? But how did you link up? Well, ESPN, you know, ESPN biggest, we called the World Wide Leader in sports, you know, we, it doesn't exist. No, none of the media in down here exists. It's ESPN's a worldwide leader. You know, we have, we cover the NBA aggressively. We have people all over the country. And I've been with ESPN for 15 years. You've been with ESPN for, this is your 17. Yeah. So we've been around a little while. And he lives in Dallas, Texas. I live in Omaha, Nebraska. And they big, big NBA, a lot better. We are constantly all over the country all year round.

5:07And so we do our podcast three days a week. And maybe I'm in New York and he's in Oklahoma city. Maybe I'm in Los Angeles and he's in Houston. Just over and we have all the other people do it. And so we've been doing it for a decade. I think something like that now. And to be clear, it is Brian Winhorse in the hoop collective. So my nickname, I guess, is hoop collective because it is his podcast. And I'm the other agent. Are you all the captain, Brian? Are we establishing that? There's no, he's on the, it's his podcast. I'm just a regular. Basically, he couldn't get rid of me. I'd like to say I'm the Scotty Pippin, his Michael. Well, say you will. There used to be three of us. And our third wheel was just hired to basically be the assistant general manager, the Atlanta Hawks. So they listened to our nonsense. And they were like, we've got nonsense running our team. Get rid of that nonsense and bring in these nonsense. We need someone to come in and interrupt our personnel. Exactly. So that was a wild turn of events. What's your team?

6:07The NBA, I mean, for us, it's, it's perfect because the games are often early morning, early afternoon. It can be hard to follow. There's so much basketball. There can be a dozen games on, per night for you guys in the States. It's hard to, you can't follow it with a podcast each day because there's games happening while you're recording. And by the time you get it out. So what do you focus on on the hoop collective? Yeah, honestly, we kind of focus a lot on the business of Lee. And you guys are in the trade window. So we focus a lot on the roster. But if the game's obviously are important, that's what the whole thing is built around. But we focus a lot on how rosters are built. What's going on in the league? And let's be honest, in the NBA, a lot of the roster building equation is followed to drama. It's a star poaching league. So we focus a lot on the drama. Obviously, we're watching a lot of basketball. I think more important, frankly, is that we're talking to a lot

7:10of people like, when we go to games, our most important time is not the 48 minutes of competition, but it's the two hours before the game. Because that's when we're talking to agents and assistant coaches and players and executives and whatnot. So I think we pride ourselves on being as well connected and informed as any basketball partner. If you ever watch an NBA game, the typical NBA game, middle of the season, the first three quarters are not super aggressive and interesting. Occasionally. Yeah. But the first three quarters, you sell the hot dogs, you do the television commercials. And then the fourth quarter of the players start to play. That's where the NBA season also goes. The first three quarters of the NBA season fill all the television commitments, sell all the jerseys, do it like that. And then we move on to the playoffs where everybody tries to do it. So we operate in those first three quarters where the game's going on.

8:12It's important. We talk about it. But there's a lot of other stuff that you're doing to check the boxes. What about more broadly, Bronn and Tim? Like, where do you feel it's all going in terms of the way people consume it? The average fan, what do they like? How do they like to receive it? I mean, you guys got some stamina about you. I saw you did a two-and-a-half hour podcast the other day, which defies the sort of hot take-ears. That's unusual. Yeah. But it's a hot take-ears. People like it snackable, people like it, brief, and everyone's in a rush. How do you feel? How does it look over in the States at the moment? What do you think it's going? Yeah, I think storytelling, the answer to storytelling. And some of you tell stories really short. Some of you tell stories really long. The NBA season is a story. One of my favorite things about the NBA is when you play a series, best four out of seven. And it usually can last two weeks. And the drama that happens in between those games, there's a story arc, there's heroes, there's villains, there's in between drama with people talking trash, et cetera, et cetera. That's a perfect thing that happens.

9:12Well, you don't always have that during the regular season. So you look for stories that an arcs and things like that. And again, sometimes it involves just one game. But sometimes it involves something over the course of weeks or months. And it's our job to find those stories and tell them in a relatable fashion. And that's essentially what we do on our podcast. And we spend all day long watching, reviewing statistics, talking to people, even today in the middle of the night, in when I woke up at the middle of the night, jet lagged three in the morning, I was talking to on the phone to executives. I just do it all day long. And so it's synthesized. And that's really our job. Our job is when you're done listening, that you know a little bit more. And hopefully you enjoyed hearing us talk about it more. Some days are better than others on that. I think I follow the US sports, the NFL. So I'm listening to you guys. I'm also watching the brands about the score this. Oh, this is big. I'm from Cleveland. Oh, they just went ahead. Well, Aaron Rogers threw a terrible interception.

10:15I can send him a card. Send him a card shortly. So I think I take a lot, you know, I love to, you know, at night time I watch, you know, this morning's the most recent get up, you know, stuff like that. It generally feels like you guys are better connected to the people who run the sports over there than we are to us. It feels like there's a bigger divide. Is that fair or is that just how it seems? Well, I'll put it this way. The players don't trust management. Management doesn't trust the players. Ownership doesn't trust, you know, the league office sometimes whatever. And we sort of, and we sort of slither in between. Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard, but not the pipeline? That's bullspin. And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions. My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had. Impression. Cut the bullspin. See revenue? Not just reach.

11:16LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad networks. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $25 credit go to LinkedIn.com slash campaign turn sick edition supply. I mean, trust me, there's days where we face the fire, but we sort of can exist in a world, you know, when we, when you go to a big event, everybody in the NBA wears their logo. Yeah. You know, nobody wears suits anymore, except for us when we do TV. And so everybody's got these, you know, these zip ups on it has their logo. Well, we go to the games we have no logo. So we operate in this world where we can sort of go in between. And there have been many, many times where two parties will be an absolute war with each other. Well, not even talk to each other. And I'm talking to over here and we're talking over here. Yeah. I've had times where two guys who are in the middle of an absolute fierce negotiation scream at me and hang up the phone. I talked to the other guy screams at me, hangs up the phone. I'm like, whoa, they are not close to a deal. And the funny thing is it's part of our job is to figure out like, what are their

12:21agendas? You know, what information can we trust? Like, let's be honest, nobody we talked to is hooked up to a polygraph. No, sorry. We've got to figure out like, what's their motivation here? What's their agenda? You know, trust a little bit. Verify a lot. Well, first I hear in the NFL windy that long is the second language of. Well, so right now, literally in this minute, in the next couple of hours, there's a, there's a very fascinating thing happening in the NBA. There's a, there's a young big man named Jalen Durin. Yeah. He plays for the Detroit pistons. He's a restricted free agent. So in other words, the pistons have the right to match any offer that he got, which froze his market. Training camp started on Monday and he has a deadline of midnight Thursday to accept a one year contract or they pulled that off the table and he basically will be in a holdout situation. They've had a five year, two hundred million dollar contract on the table. The pistons wanted it out there that he they were offering of two hundred million. Because they want to apply pressure to him, right?

13:22And, and so it's this fascinating moment that we're waiting to find out what his choice is. But that moment, this team, Detroit is on one sixty of the 82 games last year. They play, there's a very strong team that there's this drama and like think of, think of all of the opinions that you guys had last week, you know, about, about Warfey time. Yep. Right? Think of, think of, think of all the opinions that are going to come with this kid makes a decision. Does he take the two hundred million on the table, angry, they didn't get offered more or does he take a one year, nine million dollar contract, which means he's leaving, which means he'll lead after the year. Do you risk hundred and ninety million dollars to say that maybe I could make a little bit more. Well, we've seen that backfire haven't we? Dennis Shrute is one guy that did that. Classic example. Classic example. So, what do you think he'll, he'll do? I think I'll take the two hundred million. I hope he, I hope for his sake he does. I, because right now his feelings are influencing his decision making. And that's a tough, that's a tough place. Well, this, this is the, this is the world we live in.

14:25So the athletes, the players, once this information came out, the players kind of started turning on him a little bit. And the meat of their like boy, you're going to turn down two hundred million. Well, the money, the money's I'm ordering. I've got to be honest. JJ, Brian, Tim, sit tight, we'll just get a break and we get texts in real time here as well. So I read this one out a lot of fans listening. Yes, the boys are live with us in the studio at the moment. So he can fire a question in McLean said this. I'm bringing my 15 year old son into night to the live podcast. He's a huge Miami fan. Can't wait to meet you both. Thank you very much for coming out. We're coming out in the work that you don't say a lot of love for the hoop collective coming through on the SEN text line. It's a four double three ninety eight eleven sixteen. We're going to be back with Wendy and Maca after this. It is and it's a real pleasure to have the ESPN dynamic duo. We're going to go with Brian, Winhorse and Tim McMahon in the studio with us for the hoop collective, which is on the road. It's called a world tour. I believe JJ the boys have absolutely made it and look at all the texts coming through, talk on all things MBA, which is amazing. So boys, I might just open it up to the biggest stories ahead of a new season. Please, let's do it. There's arguably none bigger than the man that you follow so closely.

15:27LeBron to Philly. Can you believe it? Were you surprised? Is anyone else? I did not feel it coming. I really thought he was going to go to Miami and he kind of explained why this week and he kind of gave us stunning answer. He basically again, he hasn't really talked all year and now the season started. He said he wanted to be a New York Nick and the fascinating thing about this is he's played 24 years in the MBA. I would bet you that in 23 of the last 24 years, if you asked the next, do you want LeBron the answer would be yes. And they would be knocking guys out of lockers to make it. I would say, you know, the several times they, the one time when in 2010, they literally prepared two years to pitch him. Okay. So here he is. He wants to be a Nick and now the Knicks have won their first championship in 52 years. And they don't need them. They didn't really call him back. And so what it is now clear while Philadelphia is interesting, he's. Living in New York City and commune to Philadelphia. And I honestly think one of the reasons he picked, I'm not saying the number one reason.

16:29Philadelphia is within a short helicopter ride of New York City and they've built a helipad. They have a great helipad at the Philly practice facility, which for that already, they will. Yes, their owner does it. And he's going to practice and then getting out of practice and though it starts whirlwind and he's out there and gone. Yeah. Very relatable when your decision is coming down to helipads. Right. So honestly, I think he decided he wanted to play in New York and then they didn't want him. He took the next best place. Well, I brought on asking about this. Now this is poor. I'm holding up a photo of the what has become. Well, a ridiculous. An internet sensation, an internet sensation, a mean for the ages. Just tell us through. Take us through how that's how often you get asked about it. Every all the time. Yeah. Luckily, it's not. It's how many years old now? There's two windies. Yeah, it's how many years old it's still around. But when was that? Was that 22? Four years on getting told. Yeah. Here's the thing is a time everything in life is time and place.

17:31That happened on the Friday of July 4th weekend in the United States, which is the big summer weekend. And I was talking about the Utah Jazz. You know, I don't know what the comparable thing is. What's your smallest AFL market? What's your smallest? You know, upsets. She's a great away from St. Kilda. Yeah, West of Sydney. Okay. Smallest market. So the Utah Jazz are one of the smallest markets in the US. Yeah. And they play in the mountain time zone, which is two hours behind New York. We very rarely talk about them. And this was the premium show on ESPN first take. Stephen A Smith show. Stephen A was in the Bahamas. It was he was on the holiday. Yeah. The second string was in the Bahamas. The third string was in the Bahamas. The fourth string is there. So that meant I was leading the show. And I said, I want to talk about the jazz performance. 362 days a year. There's no way that would fly. And so I had this big momentum, this take that was ready to give. And I let it rip. And then the premium point, I just did that pose. And then like two hours later, what I quasi predicted came true.

18:32And then we go into a holiday weekend with no new content being produced. And I was like, I gave this take and I poured concrete on top of it. And then the meme was there to grow. Well, and it's classic Wendy's good with his hands. He knows how to, you know, he's a storyteller. He knows how to put some theatrics on it. And he had good intel. He had 99.9% intel. But he was going to leave himself the point one percentage of wiggle room. So he set himself up to look like a genius with no downside of being wrong. What's going on in Utah? And then oh, here it is. Wow, Wendy, he can tell the future. He knew something was coming down. You spoke earlier about the games of the games and the longer the season goes, the more they matter and the playoffs are almost a different looking sport. The way it's played, you spoke about the drama and the business. I went to Dallas a couple of years ago, just before Luke Adoncich was traded.

19:32Is what was it like in Dallas? I mean, it was crazy all over the world, even here in Australia, we think this, they must have been some sort of internet glitch with these information. What was it like in Dallas? I mean, it was like a fan base felt that their son was kidnapped. Yeah, that's, that's the closest thing I can compare to. And it still is the most insane illogical trade that I've ever seen. And I get all the frustration the Mavericks had with Luca. Let's be honest, the condition had been a concern as well. Blah, blah, blah, blah. He was an established like top tier superstar, just entering his prime, who was months removed from taking a team that wasn't loaded with a lot of the star power to the finals. And it was a petty personal decision that was instantly despised and is, I mean, they got lucky by winning the lottery in a marathon. It was a fascinating moment in sport because you make a very controversial trade. So that's strike one, strike two, the return, like sometimes you could make a trade

20:36and the return is so good, you're just like, my God, you just can't say no to that. Strike pennies on the dollar. That's strike two, strike three, which you know, American baseball, that's means you're out. Yeah, yeah, the management was completely arrogant about it. Yeah. And when people were horrified and shocked, they responded with arrogance. And then the guy they traded him for, because they sold them, they said, listen, we got to trade this guy because he's always out of shape and he's never going to be the guy that's injured all the time. God hurt the first game was hurt when they traded him. And he's always hurt. Yeah. Yeah. And then came into the next camp out of shape. Yeah, they got to trade Luca because he's always out of shape. Then the guy shows up out of shape. And they're like, what are we talking about here? So just and the guy, look, the guy has reasoning, but he was very arrogant about it. And he gets fired and can you remember a bigger off the cuff trade that just came from nowhere? Because so often, you know, one of you guys or somebody else will get it and get the story out there beforehand. And it's always jarring and it's always jolting, but that just came from nowhere.

21:38It was a perfect storm because again, a major trade involving the Los Angeles Lakers biggest team, you know, in our world at ESPN, the number one team in all of sport is interested. ESPN is the Lakers. Number two is, I think FC Barcelona in terms of our people in it after with, I think number three is a Golden State Warriors. So you're talking about the number one team in an American sport makes a shocking trade combined with it's a superstar combined with it's a shot combined with nobody saw coming. Perfect. And the other thing is I would say the vast majority of the time in the NBA, in the NBA when a superstar at that level gets traded, it's because that player pressured the franchise to trade him. Yeah. And he was a complete opposite where Luca was blindsided. He felt like he was backstabbed. I mean, he was heartbroken. He's the only guy in the history of the league. The only star in the history of the league who became a sympathetic figure because he was traded to the Lakers. And you know what's fascinating is that star players in a weird way are jealous of him

22:42now because he pulled off getting traded and being viewed as a sympathetic figure. So many star players, they want to move out of a situation and they. They scorch the earth behind them, including Anthony Davis to get to the lay in the first way. Right. And so like people, some people like, okay, when they have their secret meeting, we're going to plan my exit. Give me the Luca. Execute the Luca package and it just can't happen. Last one because I know we've got to let you guys go. Now we can, we can, we can, I was just going to say we want to tighten news now. We want to come back to. We've got an Australian famed question for these two and it's probably the only time they're going to talk about the Sacramento Kings this year. Okay. So we've got to get to that. I'm going to have a little teaser on that. Let's come back to it. I've got a couple of journalistic questions to ask the boys about relationship with exactly that sort of stuff. You stay right where you are. I love the Mavericks. I love the way the fans protest as well, bringing coffins to home. That was next level. We're going to have to get that into the AFL J.J when a trade goes down in this period. All right. We'll take the news headlines. The boys will stick around just for a couple of minutes. We'll be back.

23:42Yeah. Good morning, Sam Edmund Josh Jenkins. End up to be asked. We could speak to Brian and Tim All day, J.J. We've got to let the boys go. We just got a couple more left in a saverick and you floated the Sacramento Kings curiously before this. Yes. Yeah, that don't get spoken about a lot. But Ben Simmons, of course, our only ever NBA All Star from this part of the world. What do you make of his? Flowing ad bunched it on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bullspin. And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions. I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't. Cut the bullspin. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com slash campaign, Terms, Signetions, Apply. Resurgence comeback. We hope it's a resurgence. I mean, it was a surprise. We didn't think he was coming back. And you're, you need to, you guys both need to have a little bit of a word.

24:44I know he does his own thing, but Steven A. has to got a layoff. Ben Simmons. Come on. There were, there were moments where I got a little bit tough. So number one, he hasn't made the roster yet. He has a non-guaranteed contract. So for the next three weeks, the preseason needs to perform well to make the opening day roster. Then his contract wouldn't be guaranteed till January. So he's got sort of three steps, but he is still six foot 10. And if he can defend, the Kings are one of the worst teams in the league. They need anybody. You can help them. And especially defenders. He's got a shot to play. So he's a guy who was a superstar or at least ascending to superstar status who's got to redefine himself as a role player in NBA. And there's a few guys who have pulled that off, but it's a tough transition to make. Shams Chironia. I don't think I'm telling anything to people that I don't already know. A VSP and he's the best newsbreaker in, in the NBA. I think I was just having a look at you. He's just gone past 4.1 million followers now. What just tell us something about Shams and maybe we don't like him.

25:44Is he just on his phone the whole month? Yes. His screen time would be, you know, you get those alerts. So at the culmination of the NBA trade deadline, he posts his screen time and it's disturbing. I don't remember what it is. I mean, it's like 20 plus hours a day at that point. It's insane. The guy, he doesn't sleep. So his relationship and relationship building just must be incessant. I'm really never stops. He's got the strongest thumbs in the world because all he's doing is this all day every day. He's possibly me to everyone face to face, Kenny, being a massive sport like yours all around the country with so many teams and so many execs. He must maintain and build relationships via phone. Yes, but I mean, obviously you begin with in person and face it. Ideally. And look, there's multiple touch points per year where you're going to meet people and this is what this is the thing. The work that we do is when the arena is closed and everyone's working before the game. Those two hours, most games I go to, I leave it half time because all my work is done

26:48before the game and then I have to prepare. I work in the mornings the next day. You have to prepare. And so I leave it half time to begin preparing for the next day. And that's where Shams operates. We all operate in these margins where it's all the relationships on more than the actual, you know, because I can watch the end of the game. I don't need to be there to watch the end of the game. I'm a bit more of a grunt. I got to stick around the whole game than do post game as well. The engagement on these tweets is the numbers are ridiculous. We need to let you go. Vegas is coming in. We were supposed to be calling what they might be called. How is the NBA world taking to Vegas coming into the? Well, I am fascinated. It's could probably be Vegas and Seattle. I don't understand why people want to be at the same time. Probably. Not for sure. Seattle has a more lukewarm bidding. So I think what the NBA is going to do, there's multiple bidders on Vegas and the losers of the on Vegas they want to go to Seattle. So there's many to be mad in Vegas and yeah, and they're going to build the Vegas has like four arenas. I think they're going to build another one for really. I'm much more lukewarm on Vegas than the vast majority, but there's no question.

27:52It's happening. There's no question that there's immense interest in it and like you said, multiple bidders on it. I'm missing the minority of American males that I don't really enjoy Vegas. Well, the thing about it is the NBA is very late to Vegas because. Yeah. And the NHL, the WNBA, Major League Baseball is coming and obviously the Raiders are there. So they're kind of last in. What's interesting about the Raiders though is their games almost feel like a college bowl game, like their neutral crowds because it's such a transit. Visiting people love visiting, but yeah, they don't have like that homegrown loyal fan base. So I'm curious to see what it looks like in the NBA when that happens. And I'm curious to see what it looks like when you two want to dance days and jump on an iPhone tried right. I'm looking forward to that. I really want to know what you're expecting out of this lucky. We feel do not look. I can't speak about trades. They cannot use a war if you time again. I can't come back to this war if you tell. I can't believe they let them do it. This would never have happened in the United States. They would never have allowed it to Super Bowl to have a team due its home advantage.

28:55They let them do it. And it blew up in their face. I brought themselves on down in the end. Yeah, this is what I, anyway, we don't need to talk about Wolfie Tom anymore, but I love your passion for it, Brian. Love seeing you, Tim. Guys, it's awesome that you're here. I mean, I mean, there's a lot of text coming through. A lot of people love the podcast. Obviously you've got a global following. So good to hear that you're back at you. Dan, you're having a straight-in. Good luck with the trade season. No, thank you. So, guys, you had noticed. Good luck with your NBA season too. Brian, we lost Tim McMarran from ESPN, the hoop collective live in the studio with us. This episode is brought to you by Born in Roma fragrances by Valentino Beauty, the iconic fragrance duo. Donna Born in Roma, Ode to Parfume is a feminine fragrance featuring juicy black current, central jasmine, woody cashmurren, and warm vanilla. Its masculine counterpart, Womow Born in Roma, Ode toilette, has notes of fresh violet leaf, aromatic sage, green vetiver, spicy ginger, and mineral salt. Shop at Macy's.com.

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