EP 315: Strengthening your "No" muscle with Charlotte Smith

0:00I'm Lindsay with Wild Roof Flower Company and I'm Shannon from Bloomhill Farm. Over the last six years we've leaned on each other as we grew our farms into the profitable six figure farms they are today. We want you to join us each week as we have real honest conversations about life and business and we promise you'll leave feeling inspired and your farming toolbox will be filled with actionable strategies you can implement at any stage in your business. Learn from our mistakes as we talk business, marketing and growing techniques to help you create the farm of your dreams. So let's roll up our sleeves and get the dirt on flowers. Hey everyone happy Friday welcome back to another episode of the dirt on flowers. I cannot believe we are 300 and some episodes in and we have not had this person on the podcast. Oh I don't know. I Charlotte Charlotte welcome. I don't feel like we probably need much of an introduction even though I'm going to give you one. I cannot believe that we're just having you on the podcast. Oh my gosh thank you for being here like this is wonderful. I was so excited to get

1:04your email and I know that we will have so many tidbits to help people today but it is truly an honor to be here. You ladies are so fun to listen to. Oh my god. Every time I hear you on the podcast I'm like oh no I need a co-host. They have so much fun together. Oh my gosh well to take it back. So if you guys are not familiar with Charlotte Charlotte Smith is a farm marketing coach. She spoke at our dirt con last year on from burnout to balance and I worked with Charlotte long time ago early years of of my farm and I you know I we worked on marketing. We did one on one coaching and I you know it really was helped me focus because I was struggling with a lot of the things that we're going to talk about today. Yeah personally and then also from marketing standpoint with my farm and so she's been a wealth of knowledge. She also has a podcast and yeah so I'm grateful that you're here and to chat and that you're I'm sorry it's taken us so long. You have been on our list for a long time if that makes sense. Thank you it's an honor I love being here.

2:07So today we're going to talk with Charlotte about burnout but like it's not really in the context in which that we've normally really talked about it. It's really talking about like building that no muscle in our businesses and for ourselves personally because our personal selves and we are just an extension of ourselves within our businesses. So I feel like in the flower farming world we just really are notorious for saying yeah I can do that or someone because there's like there's such a big realm when it comes to flowers. People say oh you know can you do my daughters can we get flowers from you with my daughter's wedding and you don't even know if you want to do wedding flowers and so people sort of get sucked in and then like sure I can try it or I'll do this. And so it just like at our core we want to like help people and say yes and make money and we want the business to build and be successful but oftentimes that saying yes we're saying yes at times when we shouldn't be and so that's where we can learn from people like Charlotte where these accumulated yeses just over time create this like really ginormous workload for us.

3:10And I think I think a lot of people a lot of farmers get into it like in the early years you're saying yes to all the things and then you're so burnout and not making money and you don't how to even sort through all of that pile of yeses that you've had on there. So I feel like that's yeah yeah it's so like at the very start maybe you say yes to a lot of things like maybe the first season but or half a season but you've got to cut it off and the interesting thing is it's the exact opposite of human nature. So to be an entrepreneur which we all are you have to do the opposite of what you've done so far in your life. And one of those things is you have to choose a focus. You have to choose one thing to focus on on your farms and that is the opposite of what you'll see on Instagram or social media anywhere. Farmers you know they look at social media and they think okay

4:10I'm going to start my flower farm and the way to get profitable is to follow these people who look like they're really successful and they're doing all the things so that's what I have to do. But the opposite is true you're not going to ever get profitable unless you focus but then you've got to have some sort of check in your brain for all these people who are so sweet and so needy of you know I'm desperate to have you do my daughter's wedding or whatever and we are compelled to say yes so just by nature if you're going to run this business you have to do the opposite of what everything inside of your brain is telling you to do and that is saying no and that can be the hardest hardest thing. I have I think I did a podcast titled no is a complete sentence and I'm on set all the time. As soon as you try if as soon as you give an ex like you have to say no with zero explanation because as soon as you give an explanation you've now opened it up for them

5:11to justify it oh no well then maybe you could just drop it off on your way. Oh you don't have time but you could do it during the on your Sunday or whatever and we're just so compelled as as farmers who want to please and also women especially to to say yes so but if you have your own boundary on the one thing you're going to focus on which alone in itself is hard to realize that become aware that that's what you have to do then it can become easier to say no to everything else. Yeah it's interesting because there's probably a lot of newer people who are like new in their farms listening and I'm listening to this from their perspective in some ways and I'm like okay they're probably like but you guys tell us to be gritty you tell us to go out there and get the things that you want you know and how I guess where does it all at what time does it switch over

6:11from saying yes to like I'm learning the things that I love in my business what feels good versus what drains me you know Lindsay and I talk about all the time like wow what feels just amazing and what things are like like I never want to do that again and what at what point does it all go wrong like where do you feel like it's a good point for them to say like okay I've learned enough because entrepreneurship is such a mirror to ourselves you know I've learned about what I really love to do I mean where where is the line for people where they can be like okay I've figured it all out but now I need to start establishing boundaries for myself way sooner the line it needs to be drawn way sooner than people draw it yeah and I think something that I'm you know I have I worked with hundreds of farmers a year and something that is not natural to us but will help them tremendously is do it any valuation of everything you've said yes to while you're doing it like what worked what didn't work what will I do differently next time

7:16instead of saying yes time after time after time and getting to the end of the first season and then the end of the second season and realizing by the third season well I don't really like farmers markets or something yeah you can get that information way sooner we need to mine I mean like M-I-N-E mine the things we say yes to for the information in there like did you like it did it make you money did you not enjoy it what didn't you enjoy about it so I think if we can be more intentional which means slow down and be more intentional about what exactly didn't I like about that was it the type of flower or the type of event or the I don't like brides or I don't like the stress of it all having to be perfect at to a clock on a Saturday or you know so that you can get all that information and move through it faster because I do think at the beginning you do

8:17want to say yes to opportunities to find out what you like and don't like but you need to be decisive and cut what you don't like far sooner because you have to be you have to love what you're doing there's so many challenges every day in farming that and customer you know not just the farming side of it but every part of the business you have to love it and so you've got to make sure that you're doing activities that you love not dread like if you wake up thinking why did I say yes to a bouquet bar during happy hour at this place then instantly you got to be decisive and cut that out and what holds people up is guilt and obligation and they so that's where the mindset you know my podcast is called the profitable mindset because you won't make money unless your mindset is focused in a way that will help you do the things that will make you money and one

9:20of the things is working through the guilt and obligation so when you can process your own guilt and process your own feeling of obligation then it it lends itself towards you being able to say no and that's hard because we're socialized so much of our life that oh shoot if I say no they're going to be mad at me and you know what in this business you have to when you're in business any business as an entrepreneur it's okay that people are disappointed it's it's all right yeah you have to let like if you back to choosing one thing if you choose that I am only going to do a CSA this summer that's it one you know two days a week they can get their flower bouquets and that's it everything else is a no you have that clear boundary it's okay that everyone else is disappointed like really you're not going to do my daughter's wedding even though it's on a Saturday

10:20and your pickups on a Tuesday so as you can see there's a lot of elements new answers to it yeah yes but it starts in your mind like learning how to be okay letting people down and it's not I want to like say to that I don't feel like it's a one and done I just had this this weekend where I got a DM on Facebook from somebody saying we have an open photography night which is the way we do our photos we do it just a couple times a year otherwise the photography doing individual sessions was wearing me down I I literally hated it because it's on our property I'm the one that has to remember to open the gate the communication like there just was could I have figured out how to do it yes I tried it a different way I went through the whole thing like I did it that way for years and I realized like this is not something I want to do I want to do it the way that works for me had somebody send me this very very long DM about like could she do it on Wednesday Friday or Saturday what she wasn't available on Thursday she went on to say how you know she I we wouldn't even know

11:23that she was there you know all of this like we'll be super all the things like all the all the guilt and I I went through all of it in my head like baby I should start doing this again and like is this you know and I was like lens no like I don't want to do it I don't like doing it and then I have to remember the one person that I said yes to so I just wrote her back and I was like no we just for us to be able to manage I don't even know how I said it I was like but I gave her Shannon and I have talked about Michelle Elston said to us like saying no with a yes meaning no I don't do it but you're of but you could come to our open photography night on Thursday you know like there's the like giving them like no I'm not but here's the option that I can give you and sometimes it is a hard no but just to say that like I'm constantly given opportunities to put an emphasis and explanation point on the fact that like testing my boundaries over and over again and me making sure that I'm like that that's still where I'm at with it and sometimes I yeah it's totally a muscle yeah and it doesn't get

12:30ease it gets easier I say but it won't lighten up like people yeah the other thing is farmers feel guilty like why do they keep asking me why do they keep coming out well we have the right to do that like you know you and I probably do that we probably message people like oh my gosh can I come do that thing and they can tell us yes or no but people are going to ask you and so then if you can just practice the mindset of it's okay for me to say no and it's okay for them to feel disappointed and you got to have your own back then don't beat yourself up afterward if you do say yes don't beat yourself up for saying yes just take it as a learning lesson okay I said yes I didn't have my own back but now I'm going to have my own back and follow through and use this as learning for next time so yeah it's a muscle you have to constantly exercise or it will go flaccid because people are always if you open yourself up for something in the public the public is

13:33always they have the right and a lot of farmers get really resentful customers but if we can just shift that to be like of course they're asking they have the right to ask and this is my opportunity to build that no muscle yeah yeah I had a quite to back up to what you were saying what Shan was asking you to kind of like piggyback on that she was asking you about like how to know when sooner you know we start doing all of these things and you what you had said was like evaluating them and realizing like does this fit for me and understanding why but when you add in the layers of complexity with farming and where I'm going with this is like the seasonality like is it did we have like was it bad because of the weather was it bad because of the economy like you know there's all sorts of like layers of things you know like I've even had launches before I'm like was it the election you know I don't know so it's like how do you you know for somebody who's like new in that like what would you what advice would you give to them are like how do you sort through all of those

14:37layers that I feel like farming ads on top of that well you can get any one thing profitable or how long or how long should they do it I guess that's where I'm going with it okay yeah well choose your one thing and unless it's just some obscure thing none of us have ever heard of but if it's I'm going to go to this farmers market and make it you can make it profitable or a lot of my clients are the only food vendor or the only flower vendor in a farmer's market full of crafts and they're like oh there's nobody there who will buy our stuff and then they learn marketing and they learn how to make their one thing profitable so if you have that one thing and you have a failed launch whatever circumstance might be going on well if that's your one focus then you just make it better you do it better next time you don't give up so I also think we're talking there are many facets of

15:38is it just launching the one thing I love or is it this one off they they want to do a photo session on a Thursday when we don't do them or they want me to get them a bucket of that they want me to they asked me to grow this one thing and then that then I grew it and then they didn't buy it or whatever you know so if you have that one focus it makes it easier to say no very quickly but if you're if it is a failed launch well then you just re you evaluate the launch what did I do that was good and worked what didn't work about the launch and you just write down all the possible things was it the day was it the election was it Halloween was it Black Friday you know was it summer and everyone was on vacation and you do it you keep doing what you want to do until you make it work and what I like to tell people is instead of blaming it on a circumstance external

16:40to you you've got to ask what is the skill I need to learn okay so I want to do these this whatever it might be I want to do bouquet bars at small pop-ups around town well then you keep doing it until you make it work and what is the skill you are lacking in order to do that rather than you know this that people didn't show up or the economy is not letting making it so people buy right now they will people will buy when you compel them what you give them a compelling reason and in today's world connection is everything they want to connect with you they want to know you but say no quickly and then when you have that one thing you're focused on it's easy to do that now did you have a specific like any anything because I feel like we're talking a really no I was just thinking like I just like I if I was listening to the podcast and I was hearing like us our conversation I'd be thinking like yeah but like what if like I you know I'd be thinking

17:43like if it was a you pick let's say like like oh the you pick they didn't like it didn't take off this year or whatever it's like how long does somebody give it before they you know move on because I mean I kind of talked about this in my dark on talk too just about Abel Shana market because people also the other thing that they asked me that piggybacks with that is they say you know it's sort of like what came first the chicken or the egg so do I start out doing all of the things or like should I just start out doing one thing and then do you ever tell anybody to to diversify because Shannon and I are pretty diversified you know do you ever give that advice and if so like when does that when do they move into that mm-hmm I think I think the first season especially can be a variety of things but by the second season you need to have that one focus mm-hmm and you should have a not if you're saying yes to you picks and a farm stand and a farmer's market and you try to subscription for four weeks you know you did a lot of little things by the second season you got to any one of those things will be profitable and you can make you can learn the skill to make it

18:49profitable but by the second season you've got to have a focus if I were to now maybe there's some slight variations or nuances depending on someone specific scenario you know but if we're looking in general by the second season for sure you need to have one focus because any one of those things you mentioned you can or I mentioned you can make profitable it's a skill you're lacking you're just lacking the skill of how do you make the you pick profitable launch it's not that people there's not enough people interested in it you've got to learn the skill of compelling them to want to come to your you pick or compelling them to go to your farmer's market booth or your farm stand or where ever it is no I'm listening to us talking I'm thinking about my own personal struggles with this because I really do struggle I think part of it is that if we're doing our marketing right our customers feel incredibly connected to us and that is where I get into trouble because it's good customers

19:58who are asking for extras and I want to be a yes person to the right people obviously but I'm just thinking through I'm like how do we do that it's hard to separate our personal selves especially when people feel so deeply connected to us in a lot of different ways so I don't know give me some examples like if because they feel like they know us and they feel like they can ask yeah what would you like to give an example shan yeah give an example like I've something that's to say give a perfect like let her work through it perfect example okay yes yes so like for instance I have a customer who's a mate wonderful I mean literally like buys everything that yeah that you offer and um she's been asking for a long time for me to come to her home and do a private you pick and design wreath workshop all that and I have

21:01pricing and stuff around that but when I gave it to her she had said oh that's just like I'm sorry that's just like a little bit more than I would like to spend but I'm you know factoring in lugging all the stuff there and of course which I hate doing I know that that's personally something that I I hate so I'm like so everything in me is screaming no but I don't want to piss her off I don't think that I would I mean I think she would be disappointed so what yeah it's okay yeah that's the thing we're like okay if she's disappointed so what like you got to really sit with it because most people say I can't disappoint her yeah go on bending over backwards slashing their price instead of I might disappoint her and that's okay I mean I feel like I kind of have been disappointing her for the last two years on it just because I haven't been willing to budge on my price but like every year she asks yeah so she's were kind of starting to wear me

22:04down but yeah so she asks and you come back with the same price yeah and then she comes back with oh it's too much yeah okay and so the one thing the the first step is you've got to be willing to let people down and let people feel disappointed it's okay that I say Shannon we come to my house into a private event and you say no and I'm like oh it's okay yeah that's okay and the second thing is there's a number of things responsive and by the way this is something that comes up every single week in our country and calls probably in some version and even at my experience you know I've been in business 16 17 years and still there's that one person and you know if if Taylor Swift called or if Oprah Winfrey called yeah we're gonna do it right oh there's a couple phrases I say like

23:12oh yes our our private package is not for everyone you say it in a really nice way oh yeah it's not for everyone I use that a lot like in that covers anything like a farm dinner oh it's $225 there's a person wow that's so much more than I thought oh yeah I know it's not for everyone or so that's one number two you can say our like this is this would be answering a different ask of someone but our resources are fully committed for Lindsay can we do the photography session on Wednesday because we can't make your Thursday session oh our resources are fully committed the only day we have available is Thursday so that do either of those two resonate with you like yeah she's not gonna come to your house and beat you up no afraid she's not gonna keep buying from you is that the fear because that would be it that would be yeah yeah and I think like there's other flower farms popping up who would gladly say yes and do it for probably one eight

24:18one eight so then I would ask if you were on a coaching call what's the problem with that you don't want to do it at a cheaper price she wants the thing she can go elsewhere and get it cheaper if I don't want to pay this much money for jeans I can go to Wilco you know the farm store and get the jeeps for less money it's a different product but let her do that yeah and so that's where you get to be disappointed yeah you have to allow um right now I teach coaching skills to my farmers too and this week I talked about allowing emotion and you have to like farming is about having a lot of negative emotion every day and when you fight that negative emotion like you're doing you're gonna get caught up saying yes to everything so you have to let her be disappointed and then you have to be okay with you feeling disappointed if the farmer up the road does it for an eighth the cost because that you know that's not sustainable you know they're gonna learn their

25:22lesson yeah whoa I did it for that lady that once and I learned I have to charge eight times as much to make it profitable right that's how I learned it yeah exactly you know so you know it's okay and this comes back to you know a lot of times I'll recommend um a book like books about codependency like this is where we get into like oh I I can't say no because they'll feel bad being codependent or if I say no then I'm gonna feel bad and I can't have that codependent it's okay yeah to let people down we get told you know imagine all the things you and I all of us have inquired about and we're told no and we feel disappointed and that's okay guess what we're tenacious we go ask someone else we ask until we find a yes so that's the biggest thing is being willing to let people feel their feelings it's okay I'll send you the book Shannon it's called codependent no more yeah I'll send it to you yeah she has I just listened to it recently as an

26:26updated version yeah and it's it it's a great it's a great skill that we have to learn as human beings in business otherwise you will run yourself ragged yeah well I think to Shannon's point too like I'm thinking like what I would do in that situation like I would be feeling the same way like right where you're like there's almost this form of like you want to say yes because it feels like all of us a form of control right like you feel like you can control the outcome if she doesn't go to somewhere else right so it's like this is where our complicated emotions get tied up in running the business and especially for these people that a lot of them are doing it as side hustles and they're still working a full-time job and I think that's where like burnout has got like I hate even saying that work because I feel like it's been such a buzz word for people and it's like you know like it's it was like self-care became this whole thing and so I feel like there's um it kind of became a buzz word but it really does explain exactly what's happening to people yeah I want to say one thing right before yeah for sure jump into burnout but the thing we think as human

27:33beings especially running our farms is we think someone feeling disappointed is wrong that's the that's the crux of it here is we think it's wrong if I make someone feel disappointed no it's a human emotion we have to or I've done something wrong if someone's disappointed it's my fault and that's where we've got to recognize that that's not true yeah and it's a normal human emotion we're disappointed several times a day all day all day long it's normal and nobody has done anything wrong so once we can embrace that like oh even though they're disappointed I haven't done anything wrong but you're still going to feel it and that's okay yeah I feel really bad that she's disappointed and that's okay so all of this is about accepting and acknowledging emotions and then the way that ties into burnout is burnout happens in your head burnout is not a physical ex now there is physical exhaustion but think of those days where um

28:38um you know who Joel Salaton is right yes yeah okay so I was burnout it was labor day like a few years ago I was burnout from a long time I was burnout from a lot of things kid three kids at home all kinds of things and I was like this I I don't like I was just really being a victim and then my phone I get a phone call and it says um Stanton Virginia and I was like what I only know one person in Stanton Virginia that's I'm gonna answer it and it was Joel Salaton and he wanted to do a marketing workshop together and guess what my energy went through the room right it's in our heads burnout is always in your head and it's because it's because of exactly the things we're talking about where you're afraid to let people feel disappointed because you think there's something wrong with that and there and when you learn the skills the mindset skills that it's okay to say no and let people feel really bad about it maybe they even maybe you run across

29:40someone who makes a sarcastic comment about it like oh you did it for her but not me all of that's okay and so when you build your capacity to hold negative emotion you aren't burnout so balance doesn't come from having less work or less this or less of that balance comes from being able to feel emotions and just let them pass through you and not fight like fight yourself on it like you've oh I've done something wrong yeah so when you feel an emotion and it passes through and then you feel overwhelmed and you just sit with it for 30 seconds and let it pass through then all of a sudden you develop balance so people think it's an external calendar thing like yeah oh I don't have balance because of my calendar or my in-laws for my time of year or whatever but it's when you manage you learn the mindset coaching skills to

30:45manage your own mindset you can have the craziest life in the world and still be calm and have energy and say no with ease because you know disappointment is nothing to be scared of or letting people down it's it's a totally normal human thing okay dirtbags we have been working on something really big for you and I think it's safe to say that dirtcon 2027 is going to be really freaking good yes it is it is going to be January 9th and 10th and we are bringing you two full days of growing focus education at dirtcon 2027 growing focus education at dirtcon 2027 grow like a pro farm like a boss and what a speaker lineup we are so excited you guys Rebecca Cootser Rice is talking about spring crop strategy Jenny Marx is breaking down her 80 20 crop list Tanya Merta is talking seed starting systems and Jenny love is going to teach us all about creating a premium

31:45flower product that our customers will love and it doesn't stop there with our great speakers we have Daniel Shaivi back this year and talking about diving into bulb forcing out to mexico is talking about soil health and cover crops Julie keel is going to be covering season extension and warm season growing and of course Dave Dallin is bringing the dirt on the IPM and fertility strategies so we've got Christie Ralph's Jennifer O'Neill Jessica Hall Gretel Adams my hubs Judd all of them are bringing you sessions that will teach you things about lean farming systems diversification to scaling your farm with intention and the foundational tools you need to grow your farm so this is not just another conference where you're going to take a bunch of notes and then you're going to forget them by February we're talking really practical strategies just like we did in dirtcon 2026 real systems and information you can actually take back to your farm and use okay so grab your calendar dirt bags January 9th and 10th tickets go live on October 2nd so head to the

32:51dirt on flowers dot com forward slash dirtcon 2027 and get on the wait list to be the first to know do you do you feel like different personality types struggle because it I think it's the oldest daughter in me that has zero capacity for negative emotions 100 percent we're also in the gram threes I don't know if she or leave you don't need anything with any gram have you ever know I hear you talk about that on the podcast you know I really think you I might send you a book too I'm going to send you both books yeah yeah I'm it's every time I hear it yeah it's like this achiever it's the it's the oldest daughter like yeah she and I pass memes and stuff back and forth all the time on old stuff yeah so yes and it is how it's our social conditioning think of when you were little and you're like oh you make mommy upset when you do that or don't upset your teacher

33:51or don't upset the little kid that you know your friend or you're gonna hurt someone someone's feelings if you do that we have been socialized no no matter what it's a human thing it's not a it's not a personality trait and I say that because I've been coaching women for long time over a decade and our personalities change when we learn how to overcome our social conditioning especially and things like this when we learn how to say no and let other people be disappointed our whole personality changes we become calmer and more confident and life happens with ease the overwhelmed lifts so it it's definitely an oldest daughter thing as in it's it was probably socialized into is you're growing up like you're the oldest so you have to do this thing yeah of course but you

34:53so it's very strong but it's also just a human nature it's a human trait a human brain just because you're human you feel that way especially a human in this society yeah it's such a weight too the carry it means it's such a weight because it's there's like the mental gymnastics that we do to go through even just shan like something as simple as your customer and you don't want to upset like I know at the core like you never want to upset anybody my sister sent me something that said like as we get older and we're setting more boundaries that we actually feel like we're the mean ones if we feel mean and or you need to feel like you're the mean one for sure you're made to feel like you're the mean one that's been that I mean shan you know this about me and I'm like I have red hair so I can be spicy that I can like say stuff but oftentimes my emotion comes out as like I just want to be heard I just need to be heard like I'm super frustrated or like I

35:56and like it's it's a way so it's been really hard being in businesses like shan said it's just the biggest mirror back to you ever yeah and I've learned so much about myself and the business honestly has helped me to be better at boundaries because I am I am the only one that runs this you know and so I I've had to because like literally will sink me otherwise but I've had a lot of evil it's yes so it's yes it's so yes that's exactly it I just I don't know I there have been times where I'm like I've done a lot of like coaching recently with any of Graham and that's why I asked you about that because that that to me has been where like sure I was and I've talked about being in therapy and done therapy for years on other stuff I don't need to talk about childhood stuff work you know now it's like where am I seeing the biggest light being shined on burnout balance just like being happy within my own life and it's all been work related a lot of it's been owning the farm and this whole achiever that the Enneagram 3 is oldest daughter whatever you want to wrap it up into

36:59but that's really been the biggest hurdle and the biggest work challenge for me in the last few years um well and one thing you just mentioned about how hard it is to say no when you do your own work and when you in internal work and when you believe that there's something I call the belief triad and it's why is me saying no the absolute best thing for me and write down all the reasons why is me saying no the best thing for my farm right down in business right down all the reasons why is saying no the best thing for this customer write down all the reasons what that happens is and this is an exercise we do all the like what I that belief triad is immensely powerful in decision making because then when all three of those are aligned when you have these three lists of why saying no is best for you the customer and your farm business it makes it really easy to say no

38:00not only that instead of saying it from attack like no I'm frustrated no yeah do it or you know losing money resentment all those reasons when you see all the reasons aligned why it's the best thing for everyone it's really easy to give a really gracious no and what happens now when I tell people know they're like well you just told me no but it was the most I feel so good I have people say and my clients will have people say that to they're like my customer told me that the no was really love a lovely experience for her and she saw how it actually then you become an example of what's possible for other women who are like she said no and it was so lovely and graceful and now I know I can do that I don't have to say no from resentment and frustration so just that one little exercise and the reason you know to go deeper on that the reason it would be the

39:01best thing for your customer ever is if you discounted your price you'd show up and she would sense the resentment right you maybe show up grouchy if you do that a lot you're not going to be in business and she's not going to be able to buy anything from you so it's the best thing for your customer that you say no and be the best version of Shannon and Lindsay that you can sing yes to the things you can give your all to and know to anything that takes you out of that so that then you become a person who no longer snaps at people no but it becomes really easy and you do it with grace that can make a huge difference how how they receive the no when you give it from a different energy my problem is I'm never feisty to anyone like it's always fine the scenes and I'm like I've said yes to you know I've resentment because I've said yes to something I wanted to say no to

40:02and I was like then you're feisty to yourself and that for sure that drags on even more to the people we love for sure yeah yeah yeah but if you do this work ahead at everything I'm talking about here it the theme is take more time intentionality take time to say the request came in and I'm going to take time and I'm going to make this list of why is it best that I say no for me my customer and my business and then once you say no you have your own back but you won't find yourself saying yes and usually a yes is because you didn't think through all the things so we can get so busy in our days that I've had to do this and with my own self of I'm going to not make decisions unless I take 24 hours their emergency for you know for me to answer right now is on them it's not my emergency I'm going to take time and do this work and so the more intentional you can be about the things

41:08people are asking you to do and potentially think it through the easier it'll be for you to have your own back and say no you were talking about feeling inspired or looking up to someone who like that says no or sets a boundary I have a similar like Lori I always talk about Lori Hernandez you know you've worked with Lori for years and I always say that and I think about that at times where I'm inspired by the way she'll word something or how firm she feels like as she presents something and she's very clear and that to me I'm like oh yeah that's actually it doesn't matter she does not up doesn't I mean it's not that she doesn't care that she's upsetting someone but maybe she maybe she doesn't maybe she's able to let it kind of wash through her but to me that's inspiring and that's what I want to be more like and so when I have things that come up I try to remember that for myself like I can be an inspiration for someone else and and she just so you know she works on that muscle with me every week and she'll be at my house next week we're doing our in-person coaching day she'll be

42:11here for eight hours straight of coaching to work that muscle and she's an example of we've worked together she and I for 10 years and it still comes up so it's it's not at once and done it's these because our minds are wired to go negative and wired to go to hallucinate that oh my gosh everyone's going to be mad at me and you know survival brain then then I'll be in an outcast in society and then I'll die right that's where our brain is wired to go so therefore what what looks like a easy yes on the outside to you riff is representative of like years of constantly flexing and strengthening that muscle of okay I'm gonna go to this thing and people are gonna ask and I'm gonna say no with grace and this is and here's why it's the best thing for me and my customer and my farm to do that and my family so yeah yeah she's so she's an example too I use her as an example

43:15is it doesn't come naturally to anyone I for you talk on the podcast about you look at these farms you need they make it look so easy yeah she makes it look so easy but it's not natural it is something we have to to work on mm-hmm yeah for sure I use these same skills when I have to let someone go and people have told I've you know in 15 years I haven't had to let a lot of people go and I always hate letting people go but I do this work when I do that and then when I let this woman go she's like you just fired me and it was the most wonderful experience ever I'm trying to figure out this fell good because of this because you get on board and aligned with why it's the best thing for me and my farm and this person that I say no or let them go or whatever it might be mm-hmm yeah okay I remember it was more just a comment that where I also feel that I as the farm has changed

44:18and I've grown that as my seasons of life have changed the in the business the needs of like what I needed and what I wanted within the business was very different you know Charlotte when I worked with you I was in a very was not in a healthy relationship and so I was like struggling with that piece struggling with a lot of guilt over even owning the farm but the farm was the thing that sort of drove me and was giving me joy at that time and then sort of there was this like flip on it and and where it took me really like you said it took me to slow down and I'm still sorting through I still feel like I struggle at times to sort through what exactly it is that I I'm always wanting or what does this season need from me and so it does feel like it is a year to year thing you know this year we didn't open our U-Pick and I kind of knew in the back of my mind we did a few pop-up U-Picks but I knew in the back of my mind that our fall subscription never was as good as spring but I knew it had potential to be but I always felt that I didn't have enough marketing

45:20energy or I didn't have enough to kind of put towards it and this year didn't open the U-Pick and our fall subscription is doubled from last year and it's like that was just an example where I was like oh I would much rather have done that than how to weekly U-Pick and so it was telling that it was just an example of me so that helps me evaluate going into next year but it's it's hard it's every year I feel like it's this like constantly evaluating what it is do I need within my life my health my business it it it is like our farms are living breathing changing evolving entities too and they do grow and change with our bodies our relationships a lot of if you're doing a lot of the manual labor that's often unsustainable and a lot of people get to the point where they're like

46:21okay I love the farm it gave me this joy but now I want to have more meaning in my life some and their farm evolves into something else so I see farms all the time go from production adding teaching or experiences or retreats like whatever it might be I and you got to listen to your body and that's where this is what's best for Lindsay Lindsay's not changing her farm because of all the people demanding it you're changing it to align with your lifestyle and oh hey if you want my stuff this is how I'm doing it this year it's not the same as last year and sometimes you you close down successful things my client broke just got coached last week because she her biggest CSA of the year is her winter tulips but her December re-making classes are also huge and she said I can't do both and I don't have the energy to do both and we coached on she wanted to let go of the December workshops knowing she would have dozens of people be disappointed you know doing all

47:25the things you we've just talked about here like being willing to let them be disappointed she's disappointed but then January is going to be so much bigger and better because of it yeah I've thought about you several times if you're thinking about forget I made a change and you and I were coaching together and you were like you don't have to make a big announcement about it and so it was like even when I I told my email list about my UPIG and we still did pop-ups but what was interesting is that when I wasn't drumming beating that drum constantly it was like we got asked initially in the spring and that was hard for me because I thought are the UPIG gods out here just telling everybody to come ask me about UPIG because they were asking me when is it going to be open when's it going to be open and I had to be like I don't we're not going to open it but we're going to do a couple pop-ups and so I didn't make this big announcement and that felt better to me than putting this big spotlight on than highlighting what people aren't getting but it's still it's like I grapple with all of that disappointment oh my gosh I have a photo with my daughter every single year that she's

48:27been alive and your flower feels you know I'm like oh my gosh thanks for that side of guilt yeah I mean that's like an actual message but it's like I like I like to look at that is that's the the UPIG gods strength giving you what you need to strengthen that no muscle like okay there's something really big in Lindsey's future coming up that she needs to say no to so we're going to give her all these little opportunities to learn to say no or not and strengthen that muscle but yeah if you announce a blanket announcement to your email list or social media we're no longer doing this you are going to invite criticism and disappointment yeah and if you just silently stop doing it most people don't notice yeah one one thing that might help anyone listening to is just this statement of we no longer have the resources to do that like if you decide oh I really don't like bouquet bars at the local Friday night you know in town and people complain just we no longer

49:33have the resources to do that no one can argue with that like there's no argument we no longer have the resources to do UPIGs or weddings or one off or custom or whatever it might be I talked on my in my talk at Durkan last year was about just what you said it was cutting out revenue streams that were successful and that UPIG was one for me it just really came down to like me I needed to build on a little bit of a breather for a very long season and the part of that is like with we podcast you know so that's like added a layer of things and then I grow in the winter now and I didn't when I first started so having doing tulips and all of those things I realized like I cannot sprint for 12 months and so but I did I really grapple go to went back and forth about that in my head about the disappointing of people and so yeah you've you've got to bring in not just successful profit wise but successful sustainable yes is it profitable and sustainable for

50:40me as a human being and that's where you know my clients learn that wow I have to say no to this really profitable thing because it's not sustainable for me I would even think like Shannon just saying me like well could you hire somebody could we hire somebody else because we're always going back and forth of like how to figure the thing out too and still do it so that part of me and where I think that's probably the three in us where I'm just like okay like who could I hire to do that but then I always came back to was like no I'm doing the marketing I'm still hiring that person I'm still managing and covering a shift when they don't show up on a Saturday work all that like it's still all of the ways that I tried to negotiate it with myself it still came back to um yeah that was the right decision for me so so Charlotte you mentioned mining like having an evaluation because I feel like Lindsey and I are 10 years in now we've gotten better at doing that me I haven't wasn't like head down work work work work work work and now as Lindsey and I have done the

51:41podcast I think I've had more self evaluation in the last three years because Lindsey just has like a heart for that like she's my bestie in that way like we can talk through those things and I really appreciate that about her so that's really opened up that side when I've just been more like super focused on work and I'm sure a lot of people are still in that spot how does somebody step outside of their business to give themselves enough time to evaluate and then what should they be considering when they're looking at their revenue streams like personally and from a business perspective well I learned the hard way that you can't just go go go go go go and I learned to train myself to stop like take uh what was that it's a call Shannon's got a guy next door that cough I actually thought it was Sean's in the office today and I like looked at the wall and then I saw Shannon react oh I was talking I didn't hear it I just like I'm sorry I was like um I learned and

52:47this is hard for me to do because everything within me says go go go go go go go um but after everything I stop I plan a day off after every event the next day is totally free and it's just to evaluate what did I like about it what didn't I like what will I do differently next time why is it the best for me to do this why is it the best for my business why is it best for the customers so um and then just all kinds of questions like that but you have to take the time and the sooner I mean it need the best time to do it is immediately after so building that in which means I heard you guys mention on a podcast something about you've got to invest you've got to invest in your skills so you've you've got to get money you've got to get to profit quickly there's a sense of urgency or you'll keep dumping money in your farm until at one point you're like okay

53:51all my day job money is going into my farm and despairing there's never any leftover I quit so invest in learning marketing right away if not you know six months before you start your farm and so that you have the cash flow to get some help somewhere you know you've got probably in the first season you've even if you're like even homesteader you know someone just trying to sell a little bit on the side and making money still needs to make a profit or they're going to give up we see so many people around us one year and that they're gone the next right so there's a sense of urgency to get one product profitable so that then on the back side on the downstream side of it you have time to do this time to stop and pause and evaluate so it's built into every single launch I do I take the next Monday off and I am in AI I use AI as a tool I put my sales in there I put my emails

54:56I put my calendar and and I just sit there and evaluate everything and also personal satisfaction do I love it and if I didn't love it it's not sustainable to keep as you know from you picks to keep doing something you don't love you're just going to show up not not happy yeah I think like I don't know she on my experience was just that I feel like my life kind of forced me into like some self valuation in certain times and I think you know I did I think just like you schedule in babysitting or doing Albert and yes coaching the kids it's time for you it gets scheduled in and that like becomes like a non-negotiable and I think you're just now I think coming out of this fog of a phase with your kids I mean she has she has you have Irish twins right yeah I got through I had three under three three years oh my goodness I know like and started a farm yeah like and was

55:58working full-time so I think you're just in this like yeah in a new phase I know it's nice it is so I think when there is that spot I think being able to you know do some of that self-evaluation for like what does Shannon want and it's like it's can I don't know I think yeah it's probably also another layer because you farm with Judd so you or CSI have my husband yes yeah yeah and so like you've got all of these different layers so like I don't have that in that way so I think you know I just the only person I can test with is like telling my dad what else I'm telling up I I hope it's comforting to people listening to this to at least know that 10 years in we're still dealing with this for ourselves you know in a lot of different ways okay and what else linds anything else I don't know I'm gosh it's you know I could talk about these dollars it's so interesting talking about the evaluation piece because yeah I we just had

57:03our big DioFest yesterday so you caught me on a day where I'm like in evaluation mode yeah so I'm feeling a little sensitive and tired and all the things you know that come from a big event but I just think it's so important to create now that I've had more space in my life to do that and I feel like I've always been a hard worker you know so work has always been first always so not that this like I the the Shannon like four or five years ago what it said like this time for evaluation was like a little woo woo like I was just gonna say woo woo if you go back and listen to the beginning of the podcast that's the way that yeah okay but we got work to do so how we gonna do this yeah that's interesting that it can be perceived as woo woo because the yeah it's it's what every okay the evaluation comes from the army every mission they have they evaluate so

58:04if anyone wants something like I think the army is the least woo woo thing out there maybe you know the military I would say so yes the least military thing out there I mean the least woo woo thing out there is our military and that's where that evaluation came from what worked about our mission what didn't work what will we do differently next time and then the piece the army leaves like if you don't love it in the army so what you know too bad but on our farms if we don't love it yeah we're gonna give it up or we're not gonna show up so that's the piece that I built in that you have to love it too and it couldn't be these little things like I learned on my farm I never do Sunday events ever my whole next week is off if I do a Sunday event I just I feel like I've worked for a month straight so you know these are like did I part of the evaluation did I did the day work for me did the day of the week did the time of day I also don't I hate like evening I don't

59:09like evening things and even you you ladies are East Coast so this was 8 a.m. for me which I'm very early I'm up at 5 a.m. but I don't usually have makeup on by 8 a.m. so we appreciate that oh yeah no problem so then you got those are I built that into the personal satisfaction part of it that's missing from army evaluation is so crucial or you will keep doing these things you don't like for years and that's when you develop autoimmune diseases and all sorts of things because you're not taking care of yourself it's a pretty cool spot to be and though to be an entrepreneur and be able to create this for ourselves yeah you create money from nothing dirt right I I stop and think about that like my husband gets a paycheck no matter what and I'm like I only get a paycheck if I create money I create my own money with my thoughts yeah so my thoughts have to be useful and

1:00:11productive or we won't create money yeah which then brings up if you live in a scarcity mindset and then you've got then there's this fear this drive with the entrepreneurship to create more and so it's like it really is so much of successful businesses and the ones that are sustainable and last a long time are the people that are balanced up in their mind too because it can flip flop especially with I love that my friend a friend of mine said that the flower farming is the new sourdough bread trend and I think it's the funniest thing ever because it's like there is like a new flower stand on every corner but it creates scarcity right it creates this like fear and it can really put an emphasis on these yeses that we were talking about and all the reasons and you know so yeah yeah and that's where calming yourself down and because scarcity is a default like our brain is going to default to scarcity so of course we're gonna go there you just have

1:01:14to have some sort of practice a thought mental practice where you can say all right there is enough I'm not gonna die or go bankrupt because they opened a stand on the corner odds are they we have a stand up that my daughter here does the flower farm and very successful and people in an out all day buying thousands of dollars of flowers and then there's several farm stands around us that I drive by in the morning and it's the same there's never anyone there it's the same bouquets in the evening and they'll be gone in a year or two and so but we always default to scarcity if you don't have a mental practice that you where you can just practice saying there is enough there's you know seven thousand people in our town of course all I need are 20 customers a week or a hundred customers a week that's it you know just retraining your mindset to go to abundance instead of the default setting oh this is just have to get rid of my voodoo doll

1:02:28and win her leg why she had a boot okay Charlotte so this has been so nice I've really loved chatting with you I know people are gonna love this conversation I feel like it's so needed in our industry and I think you just do such an amazing job so where can people connect with you to get coaching or to learn more from you where can they connect thank you well my website is charlottemsmith.com and I think you know I did a free resource for you guys it's probably a near list of resources but one of the simplest exercises I have a freebie the email marketing challenge they'll learn so much about how to set up your your foundation of marketing but also the mindset because it's one thing to have your email list or your social media plan but if your mindset is scarcity or I can't disappoint people something's gone wrong it's not gonna work and so

1:03:31this is a perfect combination of both that's it charlottemsmith.com forward slash free hyphen email hyphen course okay we can make sure we add a link yeah yeah that's great but I think an Instagram charlotte.m.smith but that's that's it and yeah I teach farmers how to make money through marketing and mindset the two have to go hand in hand and when they do you're unstoppable it's great yeah and we're having you in October for the insiders for insiders community yeah charlotte's gonna join us for our zoom to have more great conversations like this too so I'm going to put somebody in the hot seat oh I'd love to I'd love to let's do that not shit oh charlotte has a great talk to a dirt con 2026 yep so that's still available for you guys yes that's still available I know a lot of people are either revisiting their dirt con

1:04:32materials to get ready for 2027 or if you haven't had 26 it is such a great group and charlotte's talk is just one of the amazing ones there so okay charlotte thank you thank you thank you for having me a girl you love course of course hi okay guys thank you so much for listening in today it honestly is the coolest thing that you guys put your earbuds in and then find us on the interwebs to listen to us two times a week so thank you if you love the podcast leave us a review it's really the sweetest and biggest hug you can give Lindsay and I okay we'll see you on Wednesday for Uncut thank you so much have a great week