Delphi Appeal: Three Judges Heard the State Call Richard Allen's Cell This

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2:03And if you're thinking, wait, what is Cupid? Do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise. The one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. Once you know what, you start seeing it everywhere. People ask what makes it different from basic mayo? Well, the answer? Egg yolks. Cupid is made with egg yolks only, giving it this incredibly rich umami flavor that elevates everything. Burgers, fries, sandwiches, chicken, noodles, chefs use it, restaurants use it. People who really love food and flavor use it. Whatever you're eating, Cupid hit. So if you haven't tried Cupid yet, find the bottle with the red cap and see what everyone's talking about. You'll understand Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Ruski and Robin Drink. The Delphi case, big, big hearing just the other day and we're going to dive into it with Bob Mata

3:04who's been in the courtroom and Robin Drink with his expert analysis. Before we get into that and we're going to watch some of what happened in front of the Indiana Supreme Court. You got to think here, when we think about justice for Abby and Libby, we expect the police to build a rock solid case. At least, you know, if you're, that's your goal. But what happens when the foundation of that case is a confession pulled from a man who has completely lost his mind. For 13 months, Richard Allen was locked in solitary confinement, completely isolated. Bob Mata's here to help us break down how this happens in an American prison. But first, let's listen to how the defense describes the horrific reality of the confinement that Richard Allen was in. This is in front of the Indiana Supreme Court defense attorney. Lehman starts by describing the unprecedented move of throwing a man who hasn't been convicted of anything straight into the hole.

4:08And how the state actively exploited his mental collapse. Let's take a look. This against Rick Allen were unprecedented, unfair and unconstitutional. Unprecedented because for the first time in Indiana's modern history, the state took a pretrial detainee directly to a cell known as the hole, kept him there as he descended into psychosis and became gravely disabled, treated him worse than anyone else in his situation, and procured statements by exploiting his decomposition. Unfair and unreliable because the jury heard only one story. The trial court systematically barred Allen from proving that he was not the man on the bridge, not the man in the woods killing the girls, and not the man who left that bizarre and deliberate scene. And unconstitutional because the state told the judge a false story to get the warrant for Allen's house, the warrant its entire case was built on. This is not how a system should work, it is how a system fails.

5:10What's your strongest issue? Judge, I think the suppression issue and the unfair trial are both strong issues, but I would say it really depends on the judge. There are certain issues that if you want to write a very narrow opinion that seems to me be very simple and easy to write is the motion to correct air is now poer. If you want to say that this behavior stops here in Indiana and that you want to draw a line that this should never happen to another who's here again, then the confessions issue is sitting there. If this court wants to address the very unique. Bob Mata, you were there in the courtroom when this was going on. What was it like and how do you think some of these initial arguments to the Indiana Supreme Court were received by Richard Allen's folks? Yeah, it was a fascinating day. It was a good day.

6:13And I stayed the night in Indianapolis the night before. And got to the courthouse. I was, I had been given a media credential so I didn't have to worry about the line which took a lot of pressure off me because it's always you know, yeah, you want to make sure that you're going to get in and you know, I've been covering this longer than anybody. And you know, I deserved to be in that room. I wanted to be in that room. And it was I did not disappoint. You know, you got your hot bench, which if you guys have out there used to watching trials. A pellet arguments are very different. I just want to clarify T it was held at the Supreme Court, but that was not the Supreme Court judges. So that that'll be the next step. Those were a pellet level judges. Okay. So, but it was held in the Supreme Court courtroom. Like that would act room that I did sit and watch the Supreme Court just as reinstate the attorneys back in.

7:16So, okay, I want to be clear on that. So, you know, you get a hot bench and a hot bench refers to you have a lawyer making argument and all of a sudden he starts getting peppered or she starts getting peppered with. And the middle of their their statement or their argument that's normal happens in every appellate case. It's it's it's an entirely different thing. Then when you're dealing with a trial, right? Like that's a completely different process, a completely different argument style. And this is one of those hold on, man. Like pause me for a second. My dog is going nuts. I'm there. This is where me and Robin break into song of our favorite television show. Well, I'm really curious about. And so my first question that I'll get to for Bob is he said it was a really good day. And I remember a number of months ago when we started talking about the appeal process. And I see in the comments, you know, that we've got folks that are happy that Bob's so passionate about that.

8:20Yeah, we all are in our team here every single one of us because this was most unjust systems. We saw up and down and around. So anyway, back to Bob. I'm sorry. He was taking care of now. And you'll get that reference when you watch the closing arguments of of killer Flynn today. Yeah. Yeah. So they're they're worth the watch. He brought up the closing arguments on the defense brought up such important pop culture references as the 1920 silent film dog star. Rintin 10 as a current day pop culture reference. And then he had to go back and explain it because nobody knew what the hell he was talking about. You know, right after he right after he was going into a large diatribe on the magna card. So wow. In baseball references, convolves and strikes. That's fabulous. It was fabulous. Anyway, continuing on. All right. So, you know, you have the hot bench. And I thought lemon did a wonderful job. I thought that the state was the state, you know, and you know, you got the sense when you were watching it in the room.

9:28You know, you clearly had one judge who very much seemed pro pro. And then you had one judge, the male judge who did not seem pro. Well, he seemed pro state. And then you had who I considered probably be the swing vote. Yeah. You know, like she's in it was the judge in the middle of the three judge panel. And her questions and she floated kind of like both ways, you know, it was really hard to kind of to pin her down as to where she was. But I just thought it was a powerful day. I thought that the arguments were validating for a lot of us that have followed this case closely and covered it closely and passionately, which I include the two of you very much in that picture. You know, I felt like, you know, hearing an appellate court judge say something like, you know, you protected him into psychosis.

10:35Yeah. Or the mic drop moment. And it was one of those things were, you know, if you give a shit about due process in fair trials in this country, and not just in this case, but in every single case. Then it was it was a great day for justice. You know, now all that being said, we have no, no idea which way they're going to come down on that. Yeah. And what's the goal, Bob? You know, so catch everyone up, you know, because we're in the appellate process right now. Catch everyone is up that hasn't been following us for all because it's been silent for a while from the complete outside, but not obviously on the inside. What's the goal of defense right now? Uh, reversal and remand. I mean, they would love for, I mean, that's the goal. Like ultimately the goal would be a reversal. So they reverse the conviction. And then they remand it down for a new trial. So that that would be the overall goal. I mean, there, there's a potential on the Frank's issue, which they didn't argue too much.

11:39Mark brought it up in that clip that you played, Tony talking about a Frank's, if you're you're asking for a Frank's hearing that's essentially where you're saying law enforcement win in front of a judge in order to try to get a warrant and they lied or made omissions or were untruthful in some type of way in order to get that warrant. Yeah. And you know, they they had a pretty strong argument. I think Tony Liggett definitely set a lot of untruthful things when he originally went and got the first warrant for Alan's house. Uh, namely, you know, things that that witnesses didn't, you know, he and he kept things out that he knew existed in the world that that needed to be said to the judge so the judge could balance whether or not this, this reached a level to where they're going to allow law enforcement to go into a citizen's home. So hints of buried in it. Doesn't it, Bob?

12:41It does, man. And I'm going to watch another clip here in a second. I want to ask you about how, how in depth do judges at this level research the case research what's actually happened here. I know they only had an hour here to hear the arguments that's in it's out. Is that where the door closes and their information stops or is it after the fact that now okay now the rubber meets the road now the judges are going to to put on their thinking caps and they're going to really look into all of these arguments that are being made or isn't pretty much well whatever we decide out of this hour of argument is what you get. No, again, that was the other thing that was evident to me. It was very clear to me that the judges had dug into not only the arguments and the briefs but they don't looked at the ton of evidence that was submitted along with those briefs which is the whole record.

13:42Yeah, you can't take the Senate an hour. I mean, if you know nothing about it, you really have to grasp because there's so much to grasp. Do they do that typically? Back in their chamber, I mean, walk me through what the hell goes on behind the curtains here after they hear the arguments before they end up making their opinion here. So yeah, they'll go in and hash it out. No, I'm of the mindset that more likely than not that these particular judges all had a lot of conversations going into this particular hearing. And I think that you know, they they landed on the things that they felt they wanted to hear the argument on it because I like that's when you're watching an appellate argument and typically they have less time than they were given here. They were granted additional time which shows you they understand the weight of this case. They understand the importance of it because they gave them extra time both side and they gave them extra time in addition to when Lehman was arguing they just gave him extra time because they had been grilling him on the confession aspect in the nature of the confessions and that it had basically taken up all of his time.

15:02On the front end he had reserved 10 minutes in the end, but when they get back there, you know, if they haven't already started writing a bench brief which is kind of like a rough draft of an opinion, which I'd be a little bit surprised if they hadn't. I mean, maybe they have maybe they haven't who knows, but they start hashing out the issues and what the biggest interest is who is the writer of the opinion? So the writer of the opinion is the one who's going to write the opinion that doesn't mean that they're not going to incorporate conversations that they had, but ultimately they're writing the opinion and you either are going to have judges that will agree or dissent. So if you have a dissenting opinion that basically boils down to like if it's two to one for reversal and reman then it happens.

16:02If you have three oh obviously either way, if they uphold the conviction then it gets kicked up to the Supreme Court of Indiana. If it goes the other way and it's three oh for reversal and reman then obviously conviction is reversed, you know, longer as a conviction and it gets sent down for a new trial. So, but those folks will will sound off as well, like they will include like you'll you'll often see dissenting opinions in there. How do they decide who gets to write it? Do they play a game of Yachtsy or Mouse trap or Twister or how do they figure that out? I don't know how they're going to do it. I don't know how they're going to do it. I don't know if it's internally, like if they play Rochambot. I don't know if there's a wheel. I don't know if it's, you know, a wheel that'd be kind of fun. Yeah. And do they, you know, and Bob when they're deliberating these things and you said they're listening to a lot of looks like they did research, are they also, and forgive me if I'm wrong in this because I don't know this process at all, are they able to look at the stuff that defense wanted to put up there but got suppressed?

17:11Like are they able to look at totality of everything or like what are they looking at when they're coming up with these pen not just talking about the isolation that he was in unjustly that put him in that psychotic break. And we're talking a lot of psychotic breaks this year, aren't we? But, but, you know, all the other evidence that says this isn't the guy, but it actually got thrown up by Gull. Yeah. So they have the ability to look at the entire record. And they actually brought up things that were not raised in the appeal. Um, well, which is unusual usually for the purpose of appeal, if you don't raise the issue in the appeal itself, it's waived, but they brought up a lot of factual reviews, which again is unusual because we're talking about the process here. We're talking about was it a fair trial? That's what I was kind of surprised by watching this Bob would just and that's my education from you. Like they seem to be going off the rails here a little bit like going into the actual specifics of the case. This is typically about the the actual functionality of the cogs and the wheel working.

18:16Like this is going beyond that, which I found to be unusual. So good. I guess I was right for thinking of you to be unusual too. Yeah. I'm like this doesn't seem to be what Bob says of how it works. We're learning to fight Bob, really? Yes, we do. Let's watch another clip. We all know the horrific conditions. If you've been following along that that Richard Allen was in in solitary confinement, they argued that they laid that out to the judge. He's eating feces. He's running headfirst into the wall. He's declaring World War three all sorts of crazy shit in this man is in psychosis. It really was, you know, just, you know, shocking what he went through. But the state's excuse. So how does the state justify the man eating his own feces in solitary confinement? Well prosecutor Melander brushes it off completely telling the judges this was perfectly fine and just standard restrictive housing. Everybody likes to recycle corn. Here's what you had to say.

19:18The case law is clear that the ordinary conditions of confinement, even those ordinary conditions of restrictive housing confinement do not constitute coercive state action and are not imposed for the purpose of attempting to extract a confession from a defect. It has the fact that no inmate at Westville, I believe it was Westville, had ever been held longer than 30 days in a pretrial situation in solitary confinement and he was held 13 months. He was held because he could not be safely housed in general population and no one ever seriously contended that he could be safely housed in general population. What he had made it in general population, I know that speculation, but not very long. No, given the notoriety of his crimes, he couldn't be safely housed in general population. Other prisoners do not care for child molesters and people with a kill children, correct? That's correct. They're quite, quite vulnerable. That's right. And in this situation, it wasn't the state that said he needs to be housed in a different location. It was the sheriff himself that started this whole application, correct?

20:22That's correct. And the defendant has not challenged on appeal any of those procedural issues about the safekeeping order, the denial of his motions to change. None of those have been raised as issues on appeal. And the conditions of confinement that were imposed on the defendant were not the type that rise to the egregious level that our case law shows is necessary. He had opportunities for out of cell recreation for showers. He was given adequate food he had actually. And this one time at Bandcamp, we put this innocent man in solitary confinement and he started eating his poop. And oh my gosh, it was so crazy. And I mean, that's how this woman's I have, I mean, it's not questioning about her character, but holy shit. This is the way she's speaking says a lot about her belief of this case. What was your reaction to the, hey, he's eating feces and running head first in the wall. Oh, it's all okay. It's all good. Bob, yeah, it's disturbing, you know, I get, I get, you know, and they're from the attorney general's office. That's who handles the appeals for states.

21:28Yeah, the attorney general and I don't know if she drew a short straw. You know, I don't know how they select who's going to be arguing the case on their behalf. She lost the game of twister in the office. I mean, you know, it's just, if you're, if you're a law-biting citizen of this country and you care about the Constitution and you care about humanity and you think that war crimes are an awful thing and you think that, you know, mental illness is a real thing. And you walk into a court of laws and officer of the court and you say shit that you just can't possibly think is true, you know, and it's like, for me, it's counterintuitive. I wouldn't be able to do it. That's why I'm not a prosecutor. It's why I could never be a prosecutor. I'm not built that way. And this is a thing where, you know, she came in and made the argument. I mean, when you're talking about, and she's correct, they did not raise the safekeeping order issue at all in the appeal, which again, they had to pick their poisons.

22:41We've talked about this case and how many freaking issues there are with it. We have years and they have a word limit and they got an extension of the word limit and you still have to choose what you feel as the appellate lawyer are the strongest arguments you can make. Now, thankfully, thankfully, my friend Michael Osbrook had filed a, what they call a motion to correct errors. And that is the motion wherein and they raised it because it's a part of the record. They raised it in the appeal, thankfully, because it's a nopui issue and nopui is essentially where they're attacking specifically in this case, the van thing happening wherein, because what happened after the trial, which is really fascinating is that there was this video that existed that showed, at least according to the time stamp and the states arguing the time stamp might not be right.

23:45But it shows that Brad Weber, the guy with the white van, which is what their entire timeline of the case hinged on and which ultimately if you are to believe the one juror, the only juror who's ever spoke on this case, the van thing was huge for that juror because it was the state's theory that Richard Allen, he confessed to Walla, even though it was her right hand. And we have no proof that he actually set it and it was the whole van story. I had the girls in the bridge. I brought them down. I was going to assay them and a white vanderove by and it spooked me. They had already set their timeline in stone. They being the stated to 32 in the afternoon. That's when the phone stop moving. That's when they decided that that's when the girls were killed. The problem for the state is is that we see on the video that Weber's van drives down that private drive at 241 or 242, but between 241 and 245. So after they're claiming the girls were killed.

25:01And then we know from the feds that his phone connects to his Wi-Fi, which to me would corroborate the timestamp at 251 in his house. You know how we all connect to our wife's things, we walk into our house. So that would seem to indicate that the timestamp was pretty accurate. And so Nippuy is basically saying that the prosecutor knowingly put on false evidence in order to get a conviction. The Nippuy thing to me, and that's automatic redo if they land on that. So that's an issue that I hope they really kind of dig into a bit because the confession stuff, which they sput a bulk of the time arguing. And that was ultimately what I thought that they were going to argue. When we had our live over on our channel and everybody was kind of like all of our lawyers that we had on over there.

26:05We're saying what they thought they were going to spend the most time on. I thought unequivocally they were going to spend it on exactly that. That's it's an unusual argument. Yeah. It's not your typical interrogation situation. You don't have the questioning that you typically see when you're talking about, are you going to suppress a confession because it was coerced. And that's where you have your typical back and forth questioning by law enforcement. You're, you know, if they're employing the read technique, whatever the case may be in those situations. But that's what you're used to seeing. That's what 99.9% of the appellate courts are dealing with when they're dealing with confessions with irrigation situations. This wasn't that. It was psychological warfare. This was putting a guy in isolation, separating a guy from being able to physically lay eyes on the person that he needed to see the most after because the original world in which Richard Allen didn't do it.

27:11And he's ripped out of his life as a CVS tech who never left Delphi who worked out in public who had a picture of bridge guy right behind him in the CVS. No one ever brought up. Hey, man, you can't resemble that guy. You know, even joking. Yeah, we talked about it our last live about this case. And you're thrown into solitary confinement. Not for 30 days, not for two months, not for four months for 13 months. But more importantly, they take this guy who has this dependency disorder wherein he just never thinks he's good enough. And this way predates the crime. This goes back to his teenage years. Like Kathy, his wife always has to prop him up and say, Ricky, you are good enough people like you. You're good at your job. You're a good person. You know, like all those things are constantly going on in his mind in terms of not being a good person and not being good enough.

28:15I don't want to be a manager here anymore because my employees don't like all that shit. So the one person in the world that props him up, what they do is they cut her off from him, being able to see her in terms of her coming to the prison to visit him. I don't give a fuck about tablets and texting. I'm talking about laying eyes. Oh, that matters first in the matters most to you in the world. And when they did that in combination with the concept that he is in a whatever eight by 12 hellhole with a toilet, some mattress that's a quarter inch thick. And that's it. And the lights are on constantly. This guy lost his fucking mind. Yeah, like unequivocally. And there were people out there sitting there saying that he was faking it. I'm like, you can't. I wish I could fucking throw you in a cell for four months.

29:21See how well you're thinking. So think about this. If you want to just talk about isolation, remember, they've done all these experiments. And I covered this one. We covered the case too. The first experiments inadvertently on isolation and darkness were done by the polar explorers in the early 1900s, late 1800s. And they all went bachelors crazy. They actually do experiments. NASA does experiments isolating people for only a year at a time to see if they can actually survive on Mars. You know what? They fucking can't. They're a group of people at alone one. You know, what goes on? We are genetically and biologically coded for human interaction. And 13 months. So why didn't they? I got so many questions. There's also a lot of questions. I want to move into our next segments. We got more clips to get through and discuss about what went on in the courtroom the other day. I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously all this horrible things are putting this man in isolation. And if you mean you shouldn't do that no matter what, even if you think you got the right guy, there's due process here.

30:24But the problem is there's other people that look a little sus. And even that was brought up in this hearing. We're going to get to that here next your thoughts in the comments section on substack in YouTube as we continue the conversation. The state built a narrative that Richard Allen a guy from zero criminal history just decided to commit this bizarre deliberately staged crime on his day off. But what they kept from the jury is that there was another man on the radar, a man who's own social media and tattoos matched the very specific staging left at the crime scene. Listen, how the defense laid this out and how the state brushed it away. We're about to take a look at a clip here about matching ruins. Lehman drops an absolute bombshell here about an alternate suspect named Brad Holder. He details the matching bind room tattoo the terrifying social media posts and how police explicitly refused to reopen the investigation.

31:30In March of 2017 they get to solid alibi as well. It is not a solid alibi. His voice was identified through tips as being the voice of bridge guy and he was identified as looking similar to bridge guy in those tips. Then they look at this alibi and they said, we clear it. Then the Indian state police receives new information about Brad Holder where it's effectively he's made a tattoo or a mark that he's published on his hand that is a combination of his words is an is a ruin and a gabaroon making a bind room that just so happens to match the formation of the carefully balanced sticks on Abby the girl that he knew there was at the murder scene. And the officer winners goes to his boss says, hey, this looks pretty bad. He's posting up pictures of girls pretending to be dead with sticks on their bodies. Are we going to reopen the investigation? His boss says, no, we cleared it.

32:31I don't care. We cleared him. Why shouldn't we revisit this question? Did he give was he given a polygraph? Not that I'm aware of. So I know. So, I mean, when people start learning about these things and it's interesting because even that that judge there was like, well, he has a solid alibi as well. No, he doesn't. I mean, it's easy. So many people, it seems, took pieces of information, took it as fact that the police told them and then refused to look further or failed to look further because they thought somebody else did that job. Turns out they didn't oh, so well at all in many cases or maybe purposely didn't look. These are pretty big allegations and obviously Brett holder maintains his innocence. He hasn't really spoken about anything, but his name continues to come up here in these conversations. Obviously, even in this hearing. Yeah. They landed on holder is kind of the main dude. You know, and here's my thing and it's always been my thing with this case and anybody who watches our channel knows that you attacked the timeline.

33:43You always attack the timeline. And in this case. In terms of the defense. And I told and you know, and bald when I'm friends with them, he's one of Alan's defense to him like. Yeah, I fucking attacked this timeline, man. I'm like this assumption that that's when the girls were killed is absurd. They have no evidence of that. They're trying to pigeonhole it into like a Murdoch time of death situation where they basically used Maggie and Paul's phones when they stop being used as a time of death. And here that just doesn't work because what the state of Indiana elected to do is put on evidence to make it seem like Richard Allen was the only fucking guy out on that bridge.

34:44Not only that day, but around that time, which is just patently false. And the point of bringing that up is. Is that if you've ever visited the trails. And I have visited the Monon high bridge. I have been out on the trails many, many times. And in the fall after the leaves have dropped. And they're all laying on the ground. And you're sitting out there. You can hear a fucking pin drop. If you've ever hunted. Hunters will know who I'm speaking of. Hunters can hear a stick crack by an animal. 500 yards away because it's that quiet. I was there. I heard. And I was at the beginning on the north side of the Monon high bridge. And I heard. A little crinkling of leaves up on this berm. There was probably 50 yards away from me and an up probably another 30 yards.

35:50And I look over there. It sounded like maybe it was raccoon size or bigger. I don't see anything. It could have been a deer. I don't see any kind of animal point being. That if the girls were killed at 2.32 p.m. We're talking about two athletic teenage girls who were both killed by having their their next slit. One at a time if there's only one perpetrator. And you're going to tell me that there's any reality that exists on this planet. Where the one who's not getting killed isn't screaming her fucking head off. Yeah. Are you serious? Or the one that is getting killed isn't screaming her fucking head off? No one like no one heard anything. I know because I don't think it happened on the trail. I think it probably happened at somebody's house who's now dead.

36:54You know, you got Ron Logan who's property is right there who gave a fake excuse who gave a fake alibi as to where he was at the time of the murders. And still we don't look into him further. He's lying about where he's at about it. Yeah. And they don't look into his house until way, way, way later where anything could have been cleaned up after then. Yeah. There are two or three other people just off the top of your head that actually fit the profile better than Alan. That's what's so crazy to me is like he does not fit a profile behaviorally or otherwise of of any being anywhere near this whatsoever. All these other people are just leaking bad shit and they didn't look at them or they dismissed it or I still can't get over how they just how gall got rid of the defense being able to post any of this stuff up. It just it's mind boggling to me. You know, she was real big on saying there's no nexus. She was essentially saying that she needed them to have DNA.

37:56All but one of these other guys in order for her to be of the mindset that there was a nexus. And I'm going to allow it in. I mean, we've talked about the Elvis fields confession. Yeah, he got him too. He got that. But he was like there. He's claiming he's there. I've got brothers now. Yeah, we did this thing. Like I'm in this crew. If I left DNA on one of the girls heads because I spit on it, but I have a explanation for it. I got my girl. He's telling this to a fucking cop and how that and he then tells his sister in his sister calls law enforcement is and this is right after the homicides take place. And the sister calls says my brother confessed to being out at the scene when the girls were killed. They bring her in. They polygraph her not to see if she's lying, but to see if she's telling the truth about what her brother told her. She passes. So what her brother said to her.

39:06In terms of what she's saying to them is true. Right. So it's like. And you know, Brad Holder out of everybody out there because Robin will tell you it's either planned or it's a crime of opportunity. Right. If it's planned, that means they had to fucking know the girls are going to be out at the bridge. We know that Logan Holder, who is Brad Holder's son was dating the way that 13 year old date. Yeah. Yeah. Aiding Abby. They were messaging the likelihood and they never got Holder's fucking phone. And they. I mean, like, how do you not get this guy's phone to be like, all right, they're all going to go out to the bridge today. And there's always a connection in these cases. I mean, the likelihood of no connection between the murderer and the murder. Re is like so low. And that's the first thing you look for. And they completely ignored it and all these things like complete there.

40:06Because there's no connection to Alan to these girls at all. And his background doesn't his personality doesn't. I mean, just I mean, my first impression of this. I know you two know this. When I was watching that first interview of him with the cops. I'm like, he didn't do it. There's no way. Just look at him when he's the way he's answering his openness, his compliance, all these things are. And most importantly, the entire time every single thing he was doing with the focus was always out. I've never seen any guilty person so focused on the well being of others in him. Well, don't worry. And I know it's not submissive. You know, I mean, a missable and court like that because it's objective behavioral interpretation. But that's where a guy like me says here's a we need as a filter for investigators to use where you want to focus on saying, all right, I can guarantee you you're wasting your time looking here because of who he is. And all we have all this leakage over here. Let's look over there first, but no, they completely ignored it all. Well, don't worry. There's a good story for for holder from the dump that he worked at, whereas time card sitting right next to the clock.

41:13And this this just logically explains everything. Here's band camp lady again, giving us. So you admit third party suspect evidence are case laws clear. You have to show a direct connection to the crime scene. And not only could he not placeholder there. The evidence firmly showed that holder was not there. Susan case, the operations clerk for the landfill were holder worked. Testified that it would in her deposition that it would not have been possible for holder not to be there when his time card showed that he was because there was a small number of people who worked each shift. The equipment required specialized training and the workflow of the landfill was such that if one person's machine wasn't operating, that would have upstream and downstream effects for everybody else. And so it would have been noticed if he either wasn't there or if he had said someone in his place to be there. Her testimony precludes the option that he wasn't there and somebody else just like swiped his card for him. And again, once holder goes away, this entire theory of theirs crumble is because it was all dependent on what was on holder social media. What about the exclusion of Tobin's testimony?

42:19Yeah, Bob. What about that? Yeah, what about that? So Tobin was a metallurgist who was going to come on and just absolutely flame throw basically toolmark comparison evidence. So the defense was able to put on a toolmark guy, but they needed Tobin to come in and say, all right, like I understand that you've heard from toolmark people from both camps, but I'm here to tell you is that all of its bullshit. You cannot the way that that metal operates in these conditions, you cannot make comparisons in which you can rely enough on to put people in prison for the rest of their lives. And so she barred him from coming in. I can't remember if she said it was cumulative or it was irrelevant.

43:19Whatever the fuck she said it was ridiculous. And again, this is a perfect example of tea when you were asking, like coming into an argument like this, like how do the judges kind of figure out what the shit that they want to land on is because as the appellate lawyer going into argue, you're like, all right, I got 30 minutes total. And I've got to really pick what I want to lean into, you know, but Lehman gave a great answer when the judge said, you know, what do you think are your most powerful issues? And he said, well, it depends on the judge. Right. It's a great fucking answer. You know, he leaves it to them and they're the ones who raised Tobin. You know, it's always a window into the minds of the judges up on those appellate court panels when they're grilling you on certain things. Those are the things that they need to hear more about. Those are the things that they want to hear argument from both sides on. And they independently brought up Tobin.

44:19Like Tobin, when I read the appellate brief, was kind of, it was in there, but it was kind of like an afterthought. They felt differently because the way that you look at it and look at it like this, all right. Because there was argument that there was a confession that was made pre-psychosis and one that was made post psychosis. The post psychosis one is utter bullshit. Like they got Dr. Martin Brad flipped him on the stand in real time. You know, because initially he'd written his report, oh, I see no signs of psychosis. Brad throws up this video of Rick getting transferred and he's like sitting there in this fucking catatonic state. And he's like, he's like, yeah, yeah, you know, I think I might have gotten that one wrong. She had a thought, you know, but he retracts the statement that he wasn't, that he was not in serious, didn't have a serious mental illness at that point. So say, for instance, they toss out the confessions, all right.

45:23Then the question becomes, is there enough evidence? And this is how I'm analyzing it in my mind when I was listening into it in court as it was happening. So I'm thinking, all right, they seem inclined at least two to one to toss a bulk of the confessions out gone. It don't exist. The question then becomes, is it still harmless error? Because there was enough evidence brought forth by the state of Indiana in order to support conviction. And there are enough there enough for the jury to be able to stick their, their, their claws into and say, well, I'm grabbing onto this and it's good. That's all I need. And, and I thought it was fascinating because when you look at it, you have mere presence at the, at the, you know, mere presence of the crime scene because Richard Allen said he was out there that day. You have the unspent round. And that's it. Because you don't spend round doesn't count my book anyway.

46:24So that's, that's point. So when they're bringing up Tobin in my mind, they're saying, all right, you denied Tobin from getting out because they were bringing up a Virginia case. Where, where Tobin and what he was saying about tool my tool markings. Absolutely blew the doors off of it. And like they found him to be credible in what he was saying to be true down there. And the judge kept bringing up this Virginia case that Tobin testified at. What that told me is that they feel the same way, Robin, that they don't find the unspent round to be convincing or in any way, shape or form. The type of evidence that would push this into the harmless air world. So then that leaves you essentially with mere presence at the bridge. And the problem for the state of Indiana is that, and they brought up the sketch, right?

47:26We heard about the sketch a lot, the sketch of the young Puffy-haired, fresh-faced kid who clearly isn't Richard Allen. And there was a lot of argument why that wasn't allowed in and whether or not it's hearsay. We heard all that argument. And the fact of the matter is, is that sketch tells you because Betsy Blair was a ver, she said it's a 10 out of 10. In terms of when the compotted guy did the sketch, she said, yup, that's the guy. It's a 10 out of 10. That's exactly what he looked like. There's another guy out of that bridge. It has to be because Betsy Blair, we know when she was out there because of her Fitbit. Like, she, in terms of when she was out there and when she left, she is spot on in terms of one that happened. And we have a situation where we've got a group of four girls, none of which gave a description that matched Richard Allen, none of them.

48:33One of them says he was taller, one of the girls who's shoulder, probably about like five, anywhere from five to five seven said he was taller than her, wearing different clothes. And again, I'm not sweating the girls. When you don't know that you need to commit something to memory and you're trying to recall it after it becomes a thing, that's what your memory is going to do. It's going to fill in the gaps. You're going to do the bus and you're going to get a bunch of, but the bigger part of it is that when they paraded all these witnesses up to the stand, not one of them was asked by the Commonwealth or the state rather. I'm in Clancy mode by the state of Indiana. Can you point to the man? Is that the man that you saw on the bridge that day when Richard Allen sit and fucking 10 feet away from him? And you can, you can say, well, the defense didn't need the defense doesn't have to prove anything. Right. That's strictly with the state. They didn't ask one of their witnesses that was out on the trail that day if the guy sitting at the fucking table was the guy they saw.

49:39Because they know the answer to that question and it wouldn't work out well in their favor. Your thoughts in the comments section on substacking YouTube as we continue to break down the recent developments here in the Richard Allen Delphi murder case. If you throw out the confessions, dragged out of the hallucinating man in the prison cell, what's actually left? There is zero DNA connecting Richard Allen to Abby and Libby instead. The state built its case on a single un-fire bullet found in the dirt and an eyewitness, but did the jury get the whole truth? The defense wanted to bring in the expert to explain that matching an unspent bullet found outside in the elements is complete fantasy as to matching it to a spent bullet. Listen to Lehman rip into the states forensic evidence comparing it to astrology. Allege. If Tobins in there, the jury gets to hear that the argument between the other two people is like an argument about astrology when really the argument should be is this astrology.

50:49This Tobins going to say, listen, this is junk science and that this argument isn't worth the jury's time because you can't find a magic bullet. If you find a magic bullet, 40 calibers are unspent, casing out there in the field and apply this AFTE methodology and look at that and say, this can be matched to something we can create in the lab if we try a few different techniques and fire 10 cartridges and do them in this way that we can match it. Tobins has the common sense answer. When you find a casing in the middle of nowhere in Indiana, in the ground and you find markings on that, that's about as valuable as astrology. You can't use it. Well, the Supreme Court of Virginia held that it was reversible error to exclude this Mr. There's the argument being made in front of the judges right there. It will be fascinating to see what their their ultimate take is on this once once they've had some time to. I'm ready for it. Yeah, you know, it could take months, man.

51:52I mean, it really could. The defense also wanted to bring in an expert to explain. No, that magic unspent bullet found outside of the elements is being complete fantasy, but also beyond that, maybe the most damning part of the state's case is the eyewitness. The man hits the absolute core this case. The main eyewitness Betsy Blair who we were just talking about in the last segment saw the killer on the bridge and she told police it was not Richard Allen. That thing get him. Take a look. The man who came forward to volunteer to help the police is not the man who killed these girls. It's the man who didn't come forward to volunteer and help the police is this man. If Betsy Blair doesn't see my client, nothing else matters. The rest of this is sound and noise. Betsy Blair saw the killer and she didn't see my client. She saw this man. The rest of this is timeline. It's not about a timeline. The question isn't about who was when who is where when the question is was there more than one man on the trail that day. And the answer is absolutely yes there was.

53:02It's the man who Betsy Blair saw. It's the man who drove the car that Betsy Blair saw. It's the man who cares about sticks and how careful enough to carefully arrange them on the bodies. It's not the pharmacy technician who on his day off goes for a walk and commits this bizarre crime scene. It's this man. Of course we have another composite of someone walking away from the scene down the road with blood on there. There's another composite too that also doesn't look a thing like Richard. I think one of them said he like I think it might have been Vedic who's the middle judge there. I think she might have said well. He looks like he might might look a little like portrayal and or something to that. But never forget. Never forget. Doug Carter when they brought the second sketch out originally said that those two sketches were the same person.

54:06Never forget it. Here's the state's answer to all of that. This is the rebutt. Take the time to go through them here. To be entitled to a Frank Sierring he has to make a substantial showing that there are false statements or reckless disregard for the truth and that they were material to the existence of probable cause. And I think the easiest way for this court to address that is that they were not material. Even if you take out everything that he says was false from the other day and you include everything that he says was omitted, there is still probable cause which is not a high standard. Because we still have his own statement saying I'm the guy who passed these girls on the path at 130. These girls all identified him as bridge guy and he says I'm the guy who was out on the bridge shortly before Abby and Libby would have arrived at the bridge. And that in and of itself is probable cause for a search warrant. So none of the rest of it is material to the existence of probable cause at all.

55:07And as I said I think that's the easiest way. We again have arguments in our brief about why these statements were not false or the omissions were not material. But I think that's the easiest way is that he never made that necessary preliminary showing this would have mattered to the existence of probable cause. If there are no other questions and the state would respectfully request the court to affirm defendants convictions. Thank you. My lander. You can go back to ban camp now. Yeah. Go play that tuba. There's so many things that we go all the way back to the Frank's hearing when that was denied. I mean, we look at the timeline. You remember this Bob probably better than I do it was it was wasn't going to happen than it wasn't going to happen there. It was constantly jerking around on this case of what is going to happen and what's not going to happen. What's going to be admitted? What's not going to be admitted?

56:08Why is this seemingly so difficult for for anybody with authority to wrap their minds around and just go, God, this thing was screwed up. Of course, we need to redo this. I mean, there it's just one thing after I've never seen a case with so many other possible suspects that look very damning. I've seen people be convicted on far less than just the stuff that's out there on some of these other people who've never been charged with a crime. It's I don't know. I mean, at the end of the day, I saw a comment earlier saying there's other people that are being protected here. And I still I think I have to go to that. I don't know who I don't know where, but I'm going to guess there's some sort of big child S-Ring that's going on in Indiana. And there's higher ups in it. And there's a reason that this is not investigated further because it's going to lead to people who should not who don't want to be looked at again. Pure conjecture, but I think that's why you have the CVS pharmacy tech in a prison in Oklahoma today. Yeah, I mean, either that or a giant meth ring out of cocoma.

57:09That a lot that a lot of people may have connections to some some other motivating factor on the other side. I mean, there's something there's something else going on with it. And there's, yeah, I've been like so knee deep in this case for so long that I've just as you can imagine my DMs are buried with. Have you ever let me ask you this? Have you ever felt like you're flying too close to the sun on this case? No, I mean, frankly, if I were licensed in Indiana, I'd be trying to get on the case to try it. I'm that fucking adamant about it, you know, but there's there's a lot of great lawyers that are adamant about it. So from that from that perspective, you know, I feel that Rick's in good stud. Yeah, I mean, over the years of covering this case, we have gotten a lot of bizarre emails and calls from people in this vicinity that all are kind of one off, but they seem to to know the inside.

58:13And I'm not going out of conspiracy, but there's a lot of people who seemingly by like normal everyday people, they send me their stuff. I look at their Facebook page, it looked like normal functional human beings, but they seem to know there's an underlying current of darkness with some folks in this area. And that's what's made me, I mean, hasn't made me hesitant to report on it or anything, but it's made me go, glad I don't live anywhere close. Because there there does seem to be a concerted effort amongst a certain group of folks who somehow have not necessarily a direct connection with law enforcement backing them, but an indirect connection where they feel some level of protection to do what they do. I mean, just look at some of this stuff. Look at holder. Look at them. I mean, I'm not blaming him. I'm not saying I'm not saying he's guilty or anything, but I am saying, look at just, I mean, even if you have nothing to do with this. Why would you be flagrantly putting this shit out there on Facebook when there's an active murder investigation going on and she you're going to reenact it on Facebook with your kids or your friends or something and the time.

59:19I mean, it's just insane. It's utter insanity. It's like, it's just waving this like flag of like, hey, it looks like you got your guy over here. Hey, look at my film. Look at all this other shit that I got. It's not me though. You're already. It's just it's it's it's like mocking the families. It's mocking everybody. And nobody seems to want to look at these folks and go, hey, I think it might be him. People are just all too happy to have Richard locked locked up. It's fucking mocking law enforcement. It is. You know, and it's like the thing that if you don't know much about the case that they kept. How the girls were killed and there was obviously unread it and all online. There was tons of speculation about how they were killed. But they never released it. We knew nothing about the crime scene. Ever. Like, it was not common knowledge. It was not. Oh, when the, you know, the first press clippings came out about the murders and like we heard nothing about the scene. They're like, we're keeping this unfucking lock.

1:00:22This is not to get out. No one's to know. So that in conjunction with the post in and of themselves that they're so eerily similar is fucking super damning. Yeah. I don't want Brad Holder did it or not either. But those fucking the post that he makes are super damning. I think they're more damning than Caleb Flynn talking about wanting his wife dead. Seriously. Like fucking seriously. It's like. And again, like Ron Lugins a really good fucking suspect. Yeah. I was an abusive woman beating fucking crazy. Yeah. Well, there's a connection that you know, you just got to go to his land robin. I know that's why there's a can any time there's a connection you go away the connection and I'm looking up again and Bob, you know, this more than I do. You know, I'm looking at the FBI's involvement and how they I know they came in and did some sort of profile on him, right. Yeah. And they just missed it. It's like they're not including it. And so like what's interesting to me on the law enforcement side is who decided to walk away or was excluded from this, which was the FBI, you know, to give on that resource side again.

1:01:34They're never lead on these types of things. But again, it's a resource that is available that they totally dismissed. And you have really, really, and then we've seen as time and time again with law enforcement not doing really good investigations at all. But it was accepted that it wasn't a good investigation. That's what was really super shocking is a lot of times this is what the fence does a great job that I've learned from Bob as you poke at the investigation because it's about, you know, the Constitution upholding the Bill of Rights. And these guys were horrible. And yet they were never they weren't allowed to be held accountable because of a judge. It's just the whole thing is just so mind boggling to me about how bad this case was especially when again, you just look at all the other potential subjects that were not investigated, which all looks so much better fitting than Richard Allen. Yeah, I mean, I'm with you 100%. There's a reason someone is motivated not to get to the truth. And what that motivation is, is the million dollar question.

1:02:35Your thoughts in the comment section on sub stack on YouTube, wherever you're watching or listening to this, we'd love for you to weigh in. There's a gazillion pieces that we've done on Delphi over the years. If you were just finding this and like, I need to learn more. Well, you've come to the right place. You can check out a ton here on hitting killers and over on Bob's channel, defense diaries, YouTube and wherever you get podcasts. If you want to get educated, we got the hookup for you. We got to check that out. Also check out Bob's other podcast buried inside the John Wayne gasey investigation. Also, a fascinating podcast available wherever you get podcasts go and check it out. Robbins on master class. He is going to teach you a thing or two Robin telling more about learning how to assess behavior, just like we're doing here in this case with understanding decision processes of others. And in this case, particular who might or might not be guilty. So masterclass.com backslash Robin Drake. Thanks. Go and check it all out. All right. Another great Tuesday with Bob. Thank you, Bob. Until next time for Robin for Bob and Todd. I'm Tony Birsky. We'll talk again real soon.

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