CRUCIAL: Cincinnati Reds NEED Elly De La Cruz to TRANSFORM Team - GREAT Expectations for Shortstop

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1:03That's a better way to money. Let's get started at nm.com, the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Ellie Dela Cruz has to do what? Well, we're going to tell you what the red shortstop needs to do for the reds to have a successful 2026. You are locked on red. You're daily Cincinnati Reds podcasts, part of the locked on podcast network. Your team every day. Welcome into the Lockdown Reds podcast. Lockdown Reds is part of the Lockdown podcast network. Now the number one sports podcast network, and we're glad that you're alongside us here today. Hi, I'm Jeff. He's Steve. And we are lifelong Cincinnati Reds fans that have been podcasting about this team for combined four, well, 14 seasons going on at 16 seasons. Math is hard for me. Sometimes I lose count. There's been a lot of seasons that we talked about these Cincinnati Reds.

2:05And on today's podcast, we're going to jump into a couple of cuts that the Reds made on the spring training roster. Why one of them was a dark horse to make the roster, but not really that big of a surprise. And of course, the first Reds TV game of spring training. We'll also look at an interesting conversation surrounding Ellie Dela Cruz because everything gets to this one thing and why 2026 may or may not actually change that narrative. But we are talking about the man, Ellie Dela Cruz and the electricity that he brings all on today's show because we're going to talk about expectations. Not what could happen, not what might happen, but what needs to happen on today's show that is brought to you by MLB, the show 26 visit MLB, the show.com slash a lot down and use promo code L-O-C-K-E-D-O-N to unlock a pack for use in Diamond Dynasty pre-order now available March 17th on PlayStation 5, Xbox and Nintendo Switch rated E for everyone. All right, Steve, when it comes to Ellie Dela Cruz, he is the man.

3:08He is the myth. He is the legend. And if he isn't any of those things this year, then there's a lot that won't go right for the Cincinnati Reds because he is the face of the franchise. Yeah, a little bit of a down year last season. And it's time for him to go. This is not, we're not looking at any one statistic in particular when it comes to him in 2026. We're looking at the big picture and the big picture is he needs to be an all star and he needs to finish in the top 10 of MVP voting. Listen, Ellie is no longer the scrappy surprise up and come. He's been here for now four years. It's time for Ellie to turn a corner. And if the Cincinnati Reds are going to have that playoff success that we want them to have, that they're going to get that playoff series win. If they're going to advance in October and look towards a world series, it starts and ends with Ellie Dela Cruz. He has to be that guy. This team has been built around him now. They got a bopper in the lineup behind him. They have a plan to keep his legs fresh and healthy so that he can do the Ellie things

4:09that he didn't get to do last year. And this team is looking to him to help propel this team into that postseason success. We do that this thing, Jeff, where I talk about this all the time. We put the expectations so high on players that they can never fully achieve them. And then we're mad when they don't become who we think they should have been and they're just over hyped. We do that a lot in Cincinnati. Just read everything that was ever written about Nick Senzel to know what I'm talking about. We do that here. This is not the case with Ellie at this point. Ellie not only got that same hype train when he came up from a regional reds perspective, but he's become a darling of Major League Baseball. He's become a face of Major League Baseball. And it's really time for him to realize that and live up to that because it's all well and good to have your picture on the cover of the video game. Shout out to MLB the show. It's all well and good to have your face on the promo work for the all-star game and have your face on the promo work for the beginning of the season getting started on MLB Network.

5:09That's great, but you have to live up to that. You have to deliver. And this is the time that Ellie needs to deliver. He needs to be a 30-home run guy in 2026. He needs to steal 50 or more bases in 2026. He needs to take some days off in 2026 and be honest with the coaching staff about how he's feeling and when he's feeling it. And he needs to play Smart Baseball both offensively and defensively at the shortstop position in order to help this team. He has to get better in all aspects of the game and be the man on the field leading this team. That's what the Reds need from Ellie and anything less than that, Jeff, is a disappointment. Complete performance. That is what he, I mean, if you want to boil it down to like the simplest terms for what his expectations are for 2026, it's that. And I think on top of like, you know, you talk about a lot about Reds fans and how we kind of put too much on some guys as they come up. There's also guys that we, we seem to choose to protect as a fan base or we seem to choose

6:16to attack. And I almost feel as much as there are people that like to talk about strikeouts and errors with him, I almost feel like he skews too much to the protection side where it's just like if he does struggle for a bit, there's a lot of Reds fans, there's all, but you know what? It's okay. I look close. He's going to be the best player in the base in Major League Baseball very, very soon. He's going to be there. We're done talking about who he could be. It's who he needs to be now. There's no more waiting. This is not a waiting game with him. And he's a guy that, you know, we talked about last season, he finished the year on one leg. Think about this, Steve. I was looking at this earlier because, you know, coming up, we've got the lockdown in the top 100 that it's going to be released next week. It's going to be actually released on March 10th, but he is lower than he should be in the top 10. But it's really hard to argue that he isn't because of how he actually played last season.

7:16I will say that when I was looking at what was his on pace numbers before the injury through the first four months of the year, Steve, baseball reference does this thing that based on a performance for a given time, it projects what the rest of the year would look like. And at the end of July, they projected that he would finish the year with 28 homers, 106 RBI's and 47 steals. We would have really liked that. We would have really thought that that would have been a successful season. Now, it's not what he had. He finished with 22 homers, 86 RBI's and 37 steals instead of 47. And so all of those numbers look a little bit pedestrian based on what we expect to see from him. If he were to give you that this year, I think that he accomplishes the things that we want him to do. And I still think that that's less than what he's actually going to give us in 2020. That's funny. I love it when the numbers come up to support my gut check because those projected numbers were pretty much what I just said, right? 30 homeruns, 28 to 30 homeruns, and 50 stolen bases, 47 to 50.

8:20If he's a 30-50 guy, this lineup is going. They're scoring those five runs a game. They're giving other teams fit, Ellie's being disruptive on the base pass so that they can't concentrate on Geno. Geno is going to get you the opportunity to hit 40 homeruns because the picture is trying to keep Ellie contained and pitch to Geno at the same time. I love that scenario. And for it to work optimally, Ellie has to be disruptive, right? And I think Ellie can be. I think this can be the year, Jeff. I think that there's finally a reasonable expectation surrounding what Ellie is going to need to do and how Ellie is going to be handled in 2026. Then he has, because quite frankly, he has not been handled really since he came to the major leagues. It's been, well, where does Ellie want to play? What does Ellie want to do? Ellie doesn't want to day off. Oh, okay. Oh, Ellie's broken, but he still wants to play? Sure. Oh, Ellie's not performing. We're not going to talk about that. That's how Ellie's been handled. Yeah. He is going to be treated differently this season. And I think that's exactly what he needs.

9:22I'm glad that Tito has been to rain that in a little bit and actually force him to have some time down, force him to remain healthy, because the best, best version of this team is Ellie just doing those things that we've seen in flashes. We've seen in Strix. We need to see it over an entire 162 game season now. And for this team to be able to put together that postseason run, it starts there. I'm excited and more excited than I've been in a while about the beginning of a baseball season around here, because it just seems like we finally have all of the pieces in place for a red fan to really settle in and watch these games knowing, hey, there's a good chance the Reds can win this game. Hey, there's a good chance the Reds can win this series. Hey, there's a good chance the Reds can win this division. All of those things are on the table right now. And it's been a while since we didn't have to squint to say that. We've had to kind of turn our head and squint and say, well, you know, they could win the division if they could win this division, given what's going on at the top of it. What's happening at the bottom of it? The Reds can win this division. It's a exciting time to be a Reds fan, it's a exciting time to be a baseball fan right

10:25now. I'm ready for first pitch, buddy. Yeah. Same here. I mean, on top of all of the other positioning things like stacked on 15 pounds of muscle, you see the pictures. You see the highlight videos. He looks like a great God swing in a baseball bat right now. Like everything looks like it's in order for him to go off now. Just needs to go off. He needs to be an all-star. He needs to be a top 10 MVP, finish her at minimum, and then we'll say he had a successful season. Yeah, I was I was really honored to share my workout program with him this off season. I'm glad that it's paying dividends for him like it is for me. Right guys. Something about sugar cane and pineapples. That was terrible. Get us out of here. Get us out of this. Yeah. Well, I know this Steve. Like when it comes to his expectations, there's also the, well, what if it doesn't happen. And we talk a lot about the fact that Ellie will not be signing a long-term contract with the Cincinnati Reds. But I have a thought about how a down year in 2026 could change all of that.

11:29Spring training is future season over on Fandall, the official sports book of Major League baseball. And you can check out so many great things pertaining to the Reds, whether it's their chances of winning the division, chances of going to the playoffs, their win total over under. We're talking about this season upcoming and the electricity that is Ellie Della Cruz. Look at his odds to win MVP. Yeah, they're not great because they love show. Hey, O'Tani, Fandall has show Hey O'Tani at minus 135 to win the MVP. Yeah, that's normally like a money line on a given day game or something like that. They have that on O'Tani to win the MVP for 2026. So the odds for Ellie to do it, they're kind of long, 30 to one. I think that's interesting, especially if he can have the type of season that we expect from Ellie Della Cruz. I might throw a couple of bones on that one. See if it hits. It's 30 to one odds for Ellie to win the MVP over on Fandall. Go check out Fandall right now. Workplace chaos deadline stacking up in box overflowing and that one position that you

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13:36You already live this team every single day, want you elevate it a little bit. We love you being around here is an everyday for locked on reds now check out the everyday or club. All you got to do over in the audio side of things is join the everyday or club $5 a month, $50 a year, add free locked on red. You're going to get every show in the audio feed without interruption. It's also going to give you access to an exclusive discord server where Jeff and I are going to be talking during the games all season long lots of other fun stuff going on in there. And it doesn't just get you locked on reds, it gets you access to the discord show or discord channel rather for every locked on host network wide. You're going to be able to talk ball with so many experts of the locked on network. Again, $5 a month, $50 a year. The link is down in the show description, follow that today, check it out. We would love to have you check out the ad free version of locked on reds. All right, Jeff Cart. Let's get into what could happen if Ellie doesn't have the year that the reds need him to have.

14:37And I'm going to let you run with this before I burst your little bubble. So the floor is yours, sir. Well, and it's the inevitable thing that comes up in every conversation about Ellie De La Cruz, whether you start the conversation with, will he have less errors or you start the conversation with, how many home runs will he hit this year? You always get to the point where you say, yeah, but how many more years is he really going to be a red because it's been understood to this point that it's going to be his rookie contract. And that's it. And so there's going to be a point in time in a couple of years that we start talking about trading them and all this other stuff. But after having a little bit of a disappointment of a 2025, but as sort of Monday, 2025, like I think if you're honest with yourself, it's either you moving forward or you moving backward, when it comes to your career, he took a step back based on what 2024 looked like. And so if you come into 2026 with the expectations that we have on him that aren't going to change just because something might be like a slow start or something like that.

15:41Like we have expectations on Ellie, and that's what he's got to hit if he misses those. Let's say he has another season where it's like three wins above replacement. It's not bad, but it says I'm not good. Like I have to believe at that point, Scott Boris is going to start to rethink his position because Scott Boris was operating under the assumed unlimited potential of his man, Ellie De La Cruz, by saying that he would never sign long term early. But if you see two years of okay performances, but not elite performances, then the question becomes, well, is he as good as we thought because you're talking about a guy who signed $65,000 worth of an international signing bonus far below any sort of level that anybody would say people expected him to be elite. Then he had this meteoric rise and he looked awesome and then everything kind of cooled off for a couple of years. Or seasons into his career, he's just been okay. Like if that is what happens after 2026, Scott Boris cannot continue to sit on this pedestal

16:43of, we will never sign early because if Nick Paul gives him a contract that looks tantalizing, now I'm not saying for like 15 years, I'm saying like buy out a couple of years of his free agency, then you're still talking about Ellie could work on some stuff and become that lucrative player, I'll be giving the reds a little bit more security with him. Well, you said the magic words and you said the words that factor into this whole thing. You said Scott Boris. The only thing that Ellie De La Cruz can do that will make me think an extension is back on the table that talks could be had, that a contract could be a possibility. The only thing that Ellie could do to make that happen is to fire Scott Boris. As long as Scott Boris is his representative, he is not going to let Ellie sign a deal here during his rookie contract. It's simply not going to happen. With what we've seen arbitration numbers do over the last couple years, with what we're seeing, players get with the uncertainty of the market being what it is, we're going

17:43to come out of the far side of this CBA under a new economic agreement and only then will contracts be talked about. Right now, there is no scenario for me in my mind where Ellie gets a contract offer for an extension sign in the 2026 baseball season. The owners have too much uncertainty. The players have too much uncertainty. The worst agent in all of baseball is in the middle of all of this. It's just not going to happen. Let's not do that thing that you talked about just a second ago. Let's not enjoy Ellie Day of the Cruiser, I know, double knot, sorry. Let's enjoy Ellie Wally's here and who cares what's going to happen four years from now. What's going to happen three years from now? Let's just worry about 2026 and Ellie putting up a 3050 season. If he does that, I don't care what happens with the contract later. That means the Reds are winning right now and when have we got to talk about that very much? Let's not worry and be, well, this season's a, you know, I'm not going to have any fun in 2026 because Ellie might be gone in 2029. I mean, why should I play her out?

18:45Come on, get out of here with that. Yeah, and that's kind of the, the bit of this, this is a bit of an angle where I'm like, you know, what if, quite frankly, we don't want this what if to come true because if this what if comes true, then lots of other things are not going to happen because I believe that if Ellie has a down year, then Ayuhanio Suarez, Matt McLean, Noel Vimarte, Spencer Steer, all would have to have career years to cover it because this team, as much as Ayuhanio Suarez is a lineup upgrade, is still built around Ellie. Ayuhanio was brought in here to be Ellie protection. We are looking at who can win the number two spot in the lineup because we want that person to be on base for Ellie De La Cruz. TJ Friedle is still looked at to be the lead offender of this club because he has become such an on base machine is going to be on base for Ellie De La Cruz. There's so much about this team that moves around him. So if he himself is sitting still or taking a step back, it's really hard for the rest

19:46of the club to take a step forward. So that's kind of the thing with this where it's just like, is there a silver lining? And if you're not watching on YouTube, I put that on our little rundown thing over here on the side, where it's like, is there a silver lining if the 2026 season for Ellie De La Cruz disappoints? And that's the only thing that I could really squit and say, but you're right, the economics of baseball are not going to look the way that they look right now in 12 months. Whatever that might be, however that might change, if there's a salary cap, if the players shoot down the salary cap, but bring on their own version of economics that they say will fix the way that the sport is ran right now, whatever that might be, there's a really good chance that it increases the opportunity for the Reds to sign a long term, but at the same time, I'm with you. I don't want to sit here March, April, May, June, whatever month of 2026 and wherever the Reds are in their awesome season that is going to be 2026 and say, well, Ellie just

20:48hit for the cycle again, but he's not going to be here at 2031. So I'm not going to be happy right now. That would be a silly thing to do. Yeah. I'm going to enjoy Ellie while he's here and then we'll enjoy the hall when they inevitably train him. I guess that's what we'll do. They show them. And that's the other part. And looking down the road, I don't want to get too deep into it, but we know what happened with the angels, like when they didn't trade Shohei O'Tani, the Reds cannot do that. Criminal. I said then I maintain it is criminal that they got nothing for Shohei O'Tani and it would be equally as criminal for the Reds to just let Ellie write out a contract and not getting anything for him to return. I'm just going to start putting that bug in everybody's ear right now. Yeah, but the good news is I have to think about that for a long time. I tell you what we do need to think about the Reds made a couple of roster moves. They will down the roster here in spring training and we'll see our first edition of Reds TV on Monday after you're watching this on Monday or listening to this on Monday.

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22:50Visit MLB the show dot com slash locked on and use the code L O C K E D O N to unlock a pack for use in diamond dynasty. Need to have an internet connection to get that done pre order now available March 17th on PlayStation 5 Xbox Series S and X and Nintendo Switch rated E for everyone. Tracks are usually wins. It warps in rods wood. It pulls it apart bored by bored. Unless you build with trex. Trex Marine Gray decking is 100% submersible for docs. Built to last, it resists rot, warping and decay and salt and fresh water. For homeowners, that means care free days on the water, not constant maintenance. For builders, it means trusted performance that minimizes callbacks. Water has met its match, trex decking, performance engineered for your life outdoors. Visit trex.com slash docs. If you can't watch this on YouTube, you can always listen to us on your favorite podcast app. We're on all of them. Make sure you check us out there today.

23:50And that's also where the ad free feed lives, you just go sign up on lockdownreds.supercast.com. Why are you laughing? I'm cracking up because I know the 10 year old boy in yours, you would just, I can see you trying to lose your cool when you got to say rated E for everyone. Like, I can see, I can see it in your face, Jess. I shouldn't have told you that, although it would have been, the only thing that would have like taught that is if it were like an EA sports game, and I would have gotten to be like EA sports, it's in the game, but that's probably not something you would do in that anyway, whatever. I'm gushing. Now, all right, the reds made six cuts in spring training camp. And really the, the only one that has any sort of gravity to it would be the fact that they have sent Michael tolia to minor league camp, and like, it's funny, it's the wording that they use on this news update is, well, these, these players have been reassigned to minor league camp. It's like, that's the nicest way ever saying they'd been cut from major league camp.

24:54But Michael tolia was sent down to the minors as was Michael Chavis, two guys with major league experience that if they stick in the red system, they don't hit waivers and go elsewhere, they don't want to like pre-interesting, go elsewhere, whatever that situation might look like, then that's going to be some nice little depth that the reds have in Louisville. But ultimately, those were the only two guys that have any sort of gravity to them. The rest of them are like camp collier, counter burns, two guys that are going to be minor leagueers. And at some point, we might see them down the road, and then Carson Spires and Joel Valdes, two pitchers who are currently rehabbing injuries. Yeah, no surprises here, you know, these are the guys that they needed around at the beginning while the guys that they knew were going to be around at the end were getting ready to participate. And now you make your first round of cuts, you get those dudes out of the way, freeze up space for the guys that you want to get to work, and you move forward. You know, it would be nice if a couple of those guys stick around in the system for depth and, you know, just have some experience just floating around down in Louisville, but, you know, nothing earth shattering here, nothing that surprises me at all.

25:59And the one other thought that I had about Tolya is that why did, why was he in the first cuts? And I think that that's clear that Nathaniel Lowe has established himself like we expect him to be on the opening day roster. He will be he's going to get more time at first base now in the spring. We're also going to see South Stewart get more time at the first base like they're trying to whittle this down so that they've got more time to give the guys because you're right, like early on, first handful of games or so, you just want guys getting in there to get their feet wet. Now their feet's wet. Now you got to dive into the deep end. You really got to start getting ready for the the grind that is the season, so we're going to see those guys play more at first base. Yeah, and I expect to see South get a good look at third as well with Geno playing in the WBC. I think that that will free up some time for South third. You can't because it's a WBC year, you can't read a lot into some of the playing time allocations specifically for the defensive alignments because they're going to do things just because they can because certain guys aren't there that are going to be there

27:03when the season starts and then we'll get into what we've talked about all along, which is Geno's your GH, South is going to play a lot of first, he Brian Hayes is going to start things off at third base and then we'll go from there. When everybody's around and available, that's going to be the major align up with Nate Lowe being a fill in at first base. You think Will Farrell wants to come in and play third base again or something like that? Let's do it. Why not? Why not? Last year to play all nine positions in a spring training game. I need somebody read from office wise, whoever's listening and reporting back to the uppers, tell them we want to see fifths or steer all night. Do it. And one other thing that we're going to get to see here on Monday afternoon, if you're watching or listening to this on a day that's not Monday, I'm excited to see what red's TV will be. And this is specifically like through the NLB TV app. I'm sure that as we get closer to the regular season, they will announce a channel that local games will be on.

28:03I can't imagine that we're going to go through an entire season without the reds being on some sort of cable package, but it's just during spring training that's not a big deal because only three games are broadcasts specifically by a red's TV, but this is the first one. I mean, we'll see the same broadcasting crew all be at minus, oh, Annie Sabo, which I was bummed to see that she is not going to be on the broadcast anymore, but everybody else will be returning, but we'll still see, you will still see John Saydak and we'll still see Barry Larkin, we'll still see Chris Welch and all those guys Jeff Grant, we'll get some TV time as well. But I'm excited because I know I remember hearing that when they switched over to NLB TV like this for like the podraiser for the Diamondbacks or for teams like that, they actually added a couple of cameras that are a little bit different. Because I'm hoping to see more of that, a little bit more intimate broadcasting of the local team here on the local broadcast, because baseball is so regional, they can really play that up with this.

29:04And hopefully this is one more step toward ending the blackouts, which Rob Manfred says he wants. I hope so, buddy, because the West Coast trips wear me out and I need them to not be blacked out from Seattle all the way to San Diego, that's crazy to me. I look at the broadcast crew, I'm glad the majority of the crew's back, yeah, I'm with you. I was bummed to see that Annie's not going to be part of the crew, but I get it, they have to bring her in from Florida. She's not based locally. It's like there's a lot of reasons that they chose to go the direction that they did, but she was great to have around, she was fun to talk to, fun to work with, but I miss her. Ask guests of the Lockdown Red Spotcast, that's right. And looking at the rest of this crew, I'm just excited that the gang's all back. We're going to get the people we have come to trust for reds information and Chris Wells creeping up towards four decades of broadcasting with this team is crazy to me that that's

30:07happening, but that's where we are. So I'm excited they're all back, I'm excited, again, I'm ready for baseball. I'm looking forward to getting this glimpse at Reds TV, just seeing if they did make some changes. I don't have my expectations set very high that there'll be a lot of changes, Jeff, maybe a couple of cool new graphics here or there, maybe another camera angle, that'd be great. Be interesting to see how they roll out the, the challenging, you know, we've kind of see a glimpse from other broadcasts of what that probably looks like, how they instantly show it up on the screen and things like that. Looking forward to seeing that and just looking forward to having the voices of summer back on the airwaves. I'm ready to, ready to go. You know, it's been, it's been cold, Jeff, I've been cold, you know, it's almost down to 60 at night right now, it's a little chilly, I'm ready for, I'm ready for summer to set in. Yeah, we get to 60 here and I wear shorts and flip-flops, so there's that, it's like freezing rain right now as we're recording. The weather in Ohio, we're in full spring, last gasp of winter, whatever it is.

31:07I remember somebody laid out all of the different seasons of Ohio and it's like we're in like first full spring, I, I forget, it's all a kerfuffle, but we are getting ever close to those games. We are in the month that includes baseball that matters. We have exited the part of the calendar that, that excludes baseball all together and we have now talking about looking forward to baseball for months and months and months. I am so excited because this year is going to be so big. We'll continue talking about expectations that we have for players. We do that a lot Steve, right? Like throughout the months of like January and February, what might happen? What could happen? What would be fun to see? Now we're looking at what guys need to do. These are the lines that we're going to draw with what we want to see from players this season, what we need to see for the reds to get where they need to get. And if you don't agree with our predictions, please get in the comment sections and tell me why. I don't think, and I said 3050 for Ellie.

32:08I'm not, that's not a pie in the sky, ask. I don't think. I think that's a reasonable expectation for him. If you think differently, get in there, tell me why I'd be happy to have the conversation with you guys in the comments section and go back and forth a little bit on what to expect from Ellie. So get in there, tell me what you think. Because coming up on tomorrow's show, we're going to give you the expectations for our Mangino, the good vibes only. How good do the vibes need to be this year? We'll tell you. Tomorrow's Lockdown Reds podcast. Make sure that you're subscribed. That way you don't miss anything that we got coming for you because we're with you every single day, all throughout spring training, leading up to opening day, so much more content coming for you on your favorite team. The sense in Addy Reds. Make sure you join the every day or club, go to lockdownreds.supercast.com to learn more about that and get the ad free feed and members only discord access. Now, make sure you hang on and watch the first ever 24, seven Lockdown sports feed with all the biggest sports stories in there. There might be something from the Bengals about Dalton Ryzen or staying in town.

33:12That was pretty cool to see. And I'm sure they'll be talking about that on Lockdown NFL as well. That's all on the Lockdown Sports today 24, seven feed or if you're listening, make sure you go check out Sully on Lockdown MLB or you go check out Brett Chansey and former Reds Relief pitcher Mike Stanton on back to the bullpen as we get you covered for multiple different angles all throughout the league. That's all on Lockdown MLB. But just like Lockdown MLB, Lockdown Reds is all over your team every single day because for Steve and myself, we will be locked on Reds every single day. Just Hannah gonna set a like time limit of how long you're allowed to play in Moby the show every day. Is there going to be like a timer rated E for every day? Oh, terrible. Water usually wins. It rots wood and tears docs apart unless you build with treks. Treks marine grade decking is 100% submersible, built to resist rod and solid and fresh water.

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