Can AI Become Wise? | Brad C. Anderson

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1:01Where nothing is sacred, nothing is watered down and nothing is PC. Alrighty, hey folks, this is Joe Ru's and it is great to be with you once again, transmitting live at the asylum. And of course, as always doing the very best weekend to bring you the best quality talk radio, we can muster without all the bluster. Welcome to the show folks. We have a really great show lined up for you tonight. We have a great guest waiting in the wings. Science fiction author and you know, one of the things that that came to mind as I was doing the preparation for this is that science fiction always asked one simple question. Do you know what that question is? And hit me the other day. What if? What if? But sometimes, you know, those imaginary worlds reveal more about us than the world we're actually living in. Tonight, my guest is author, educator and former biotechnology professor Brad C. Anderson.

2:06We'll be talking, we're going to talk about his new novel, Ashmey's song. We're also going to explore some much bigger things along the way. I'm sure. Can artificial intelligence ever become wise? Are we gaining information while losing wisdom? And why have science fiction writers predicted so much of the future before everyone else ever saw it coming? Great questions to ask. And we're going to get into that momentarily. But first, as always, take care of some of the usual housekeeping that we do. Folks, if you would, please head over to our website, joe ruse.com. That's joe ruse.com. When you get there, look for the contact form. It's hidden up there in the little pancake in the upper right corner. Open that thing up. Contact form, fire us off a message. Let us know whatever's on your heart, whatever's on your mind. Any questions, comments, cares, complaints, concerns, anything that you are thinking about. Send it on over to us. We would love to hear from you guys. Maybe you have a suggestion for a guest or a particular show.

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5:08I know I'm being sarcastic. That's okay. And also folks, please forgive me for my voice. I'm a little under the little under the weather today. So please forgive me. All right. Now tonight's connection is brought to you by a creative edge, creative edge publicity at its finest, your brand, your future. You like the dramatic pause? I've done it was pretty good. All right. Now folks, tonight's guest is an author whose stories, throw me off of that. Well, tonight's guest is an author whose stories may take place in distant galaxies and fantasy worlds, but the questions they ask couldn't be more relevant to the world that we're living today. Brad C. Anderson is a Canadian science, and I called that against them. He's a Canadian science fiction and fantasy author and university business, business instructor and a former biotechnology professor whose work explores leadership, wisdom, morality,

6:09and what it truly means to be human. His latest novel, Ashmey Song is a sweeping science fiction adventure, but beyond the action and the world building lies a deeper, a deeper exploration. I'll figure out the English language as I'm going through this today, a deeper exploration of identity, sacrifice, culture, and the choices that shape civilizations. Tonight we'll certainly talk about the book, but we're also going to venture off into the weeds a little bit and get into some of the, into some really fascinating, it's territory, at least I think so. Anyway, we'll discuss artificial intelligence, whether technology can ever replace wisdom, why science fiction has such an uncanny habit of predicting the future and how storytelling can often reveal deeper truths about the human condition and facts and stats alone. Brad, mouthful, welcome to the show. Hey there. Well, thanks for having me. I'm like, I should get you to write my resume for me. That's a thank you. I have a great intro. You're welcome. I spend a lot of time with chat GPT doing that.

7:09Make me look good. Yeah. You look good. There you go. It's relevant because I use chat GPT to help me do a lot of the show prep and do research and backgrounds and graphics and such. And I think we all have are becoming a little bit too dependent, I think. And we'll come into that in just a little bit. What I really want to get into those, I want to know about you. Who is Brad C. Anderson? Aside from all of the platitudes that we have in the bios here, who is Brad C. Anderson? Tell us about yourself, my friend. Who am I? Where do I start? Yeah. Well, you covered, like what do I do for a living? You covered, I don't know. So who am I? I get bored easily and I try to do a bunch of different things or I haven't done a bunch of different things with my life. I've been a scientist. I've been laid off. I've been a university prof and business and business prof, which is a heck of a change

8:14from a science guy. So that's how that happened. I do a lot of writing. Yeah, I love gardening. I like gardening. That's how I get out there. Or you want to know about me? This is all you need to know. The reason why I like gardening is because you get to go and play in the dirt and everybody thinks you're a responsible house owner. That's great. I'm going to remember that. I probably tell you everything you need to know about me. I'm going to remember that because I'm going to use it the next time I'm out just rolling around in the mud with my dogs. Exactly. I'm being responsible house owner. That's correct. That's correct. I am leveling the turf. Yeah. It's a great, great idea like that. Very, very good. And I also see that you're a coffee addict. I just use that in your little blurb. Yeah. Which are, which are, which are go to brew? You know what? So I always feel like there's two types of coffee addicts. There's one coffee addict who's like, hey, I have this $20,000 espresso machine and

9:14whatever. And then there's the other coffee addicts who's hanging out at the back gas stations. Like, hey man, do you have any grounds? And I'm like the second. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not picky. I'm like, just make it brown, make it dark and brown and bitter and that's, and I'm happy. So yeah, in terms of brands, I'm not picky. My wife, whatever she picks up, whatever she picks up, usually it's like, folders or something like that. I say, well, anything, anything that's just brown and caffeinated. That's all I can eat. Fair enough, fair enough. I said, the reason why I ask is because I am a coffee addict myself. Okay. Are you the first or the second kind of addict? I am a combination of both. Okay. Yeah. Although I don't have a $20,000 espresso machine, I do have, I do have a variety of coffee grinders and I do grind my own beans. Oh, yeah. And of course, you know, being a Sicilian, I have my, my, my grandma's and mom's mocha. And so I use that quite a bit and beautiful, beautiful coffee.

10:18I love it. And one of my favorite things to do is I have a little fire pit out in the backyard there. And what I'll do is I'll grind up the fresh beans, I'll load it up in the mocha and I'll put that mocha on the open fire and just sit up there and just let it just steep and oh, it comes out so good. Amazing stuff. And what I like to use, and this isn't a plug for any particular company that I'm on it and I don't have any deals with them or anything like that. At least not yet. Yeah. We're working. We're working on it. We're working. We're working on it. I love using Lavaza coffee. Lavaza coffee beans. Yeah. And to me, they're great. I mean, there are better quality beans out there. I'm sure. But for what, how much I use, it's, it's the quality is perfect. The price is right. It's good to go. And the reason why I started using coffee beans, my, and grinding my own coffee is because I got a little disturbed when I was reading up on how many cockroach parts they allow mixed into your pre ground coffee bean when you buy them. Yeah. So I'm like, I am not interested in the flavor.

11:20I was right there. Well, yeah, the protein boost too. Yeah. But I am not at the level where I'm going to eat the bugs yet. So we're not getting there. So, but I love my coffee. I do. I love it. Yeah. I can't, I can't navigate my, and the thing is I drink, I drink so much coffee. And in my, in my previous, my previous life, working overnight, drinking, drinking those big 7, 11 black coffees, you know, at 2, 2, 3, 4 o'clock in the morning, I'm immune to it all. So. It doesn't have to. I used to drink more, so I used to drink more coffee. And then I found like, I was like, man, I'd have to go to the bathroom like every 20 minutes. I'm like, do I have like a bladder problem? And then, then we went traveling, speaking to Sicily, we went to Sicily. And like, if you're ever in Europe, like, you know, in America, they have like coffees like here, have a liter of coffee, or isn't like Europe, they're like here, have this thimble full of coffee. And so like, I scaled back on the volume of coffee.

12:21And I was like, oh, now I only have to go to the bathroom like once every hour or hour and a half. I'm like, oh, it's, my bladder's fine. It's like, I'm drinking like a liter of coffee. I wonder why I have to go to the bathroom. I can't sit through a meeting. I wonder why that is. Yeah. I know what you mean. I have, I have my, my, my mom's espresso set. So it's those, it's the little, little, little cups. You can, you just a little baby. Yeah. I'm done. Like what? Exactly. And you know, I learned something too. And I didn't know this until recently. With the espresso, you're supposed to shoot that. You know, that's supposed to sip it. I don't know. Just take, yeah, just take a bit. Yeah. Exactly. And one of the things I love to do too is I like to cook. And so I, so I, every, every Sunday, I cook for myself and my dogs. And I make things like, like eggplant, invaltini, I make, I make, I make my own pastas, I make fresh pastas. I bake my own bread and do all that stuff on a Sunday. And my dogs and I eat very well.

13:22That's why I'm a 4X fat bastard. And, you know, it's so, yeah. Well, thanks, sir. So how I love to finish the night off, though, is I make, I make a little espresso. I take a little ony-z, splash ony-z in the espresso. No sugar, nothing else. Just, there you go. It's beautiful. That sounds real nice. Yeah, you, you make a nice rich, let's say I'm the, I'm the back of a gas station kind of addict. You sound like you make a nice ritual out of it. Well, yeah, that's what I'm home. Well, when I'm out, I'll take whatever I can get. Yeah. Yeah. I'm picky. It's like, you know, set the line up, but he's, okay, well, we're off on a tangent here, but that's fine. Yeah. All right. So, tell us about Ashme's song. So what inspired the story? You know what? It's funny. So first off, I'm a real slow writer. So what inspired, what inspired this story? I know it's, it's, it's, you know, sad news, but that was like, you know, back in 2015,

14:242014, 2015 with the Syrian Civil War was kicking up in the Syrian refugees were spreading all over Europe and all over America and stuff like that. And you know, on the news that like people, like you see these lines of refugees on the news, and there was, you know, it's not all of them, but there's some news comment, comment haters that are like, well, look at all these young men that they're coming to our country. They should be like staying back in Syria and fighting for their country. And it just got me thinking like, like, what is it actually like, like on the one hand, yeah, like you, you need people to stand up and fight for what's right. But on the other hand, like, is it any less heroic? Like if you got a family and your society's collapsing, is it any less heroic? Like grab your family and get the hell out of there? Like, and so I wanted to explore that. That, that, that sort of a, that in the news raised that question in my mind. And I was like, that sounds like, that sounds like I can make a novel out of that. That's kind of, that's kind of what, what drove the impetus. What drove the creation of that story? So yeah, Ashmi saw the main character.

15:27Her name is Ashmi. Actually, I have a little, there we go. Enough with the back. There we go. No, you good? So the main character is Ashmi. She's a young, so, so science fiction takes place in another world and in the future. She lives on this world and her society is kind of crumbling down into civil war. She's young, she's, you know, she has these unique special abilities, special skills. She feels that she has something to contribute to the fight. And so she wants to, she wants to fight like her father was a war hero from, you know, from 20 years ago and she wants to follow in his footsteps. The problem is, is that she has a special needs brother and she's really the only caretaker left in the family. And so she's kind of torn. She wants to go off and she wants to be the hero and she feels she has something to offer. What's happening to her people? There is real true injustice. Like it isn't, you know, this isn't just, you know, rich people fighting like this is true injustice and somebody needs to stand up and fight. But she's got this family member that she has to look after.

16:29It's her twin brother, but it's, but her twin brother has certain developmental disabilities and, you know, like what's she going to do? And so she, yeah, she's torn with that. And yeah, the story kind of explores that tension as she kind of goes through life. She wants to, yeah, yeah, there we go. I don't want to give away the ending there, but that's where things go. That's kind of where things kick off for her. Now, is this, is this your first science fiction book or is this part of a series or going to be part of a series? It is, it's a standalone. It's not my first. So I've, it's actually, it's actually my fifth. I've self published three at trilogy, three books. And then I traditionally published another book called Deutero, which I also have here. This is also, this is also one of my books there, Deutero. And then this is just my most, this is my most recent one, traditional published as well. So I've written a couple of books. I, I've written one trilogy and now I'm just writing a bunch of standalone stories for

17:31whatever reason. Okay. Now standing. See, I see, unfortunately, like I said earlier in the prior to the show, starting. And some of the background in quite complete. So I apologize for asking such a mundane question. Yeah, I'll ask all the questions. Yeah, that's all good. So what separates a memorable hero from an ordinary character? For me, so this is, I can probably only speak personally for this. I like heroes that suffer. I like heroes that are in situations where the right thing to do isn't, isn't obvious. And they kind of have to wrestle with that. Like, so much of life, there isn't necessarily a clear right thing to do. It's about trade-offs, right? But if I do this, this will be the benefit. This is the cost. If I do this other thing. And I like heroes that have to really wrestle with these types of dilemmas.

18:35And navigate to them. I like heroes that are flawed and limited. Like they're not super heroes, or if they are kind of super heroic, they're in a situation where like that doesn't matter. They have to sort of start from scratch. So I like heroes that have limits of facing this sort of dilemma where they really have no idea what to do. And they have to wrestle with that. And there's moral dimensions to that as well and trade-offs with that. So somebody, yeah, those are the heroes that I like. Those are the heroes that I like. Those are the heroes that I try to write about. Just sort of common everyday people and extraordinary circumstances that have to rise, that are sort of half to rise up, or they're faced with this dilemma. Should I rise up, or should I slunk away, or can I slunk away? Those are the things that kind of grip me. And I agree with you that I like a flawed hero. Yeah. To me, mostly because it makes it relatable.

19:37Yeah. That's important to me. When I'm reading a story and you have this super perfect, never makes a mistake, always on point, always ready to go. I mean, to me, that's not entertaining reading for me. It doesn't draw me in. When I see a character who has those who's not perfect, who has flaws, can't get up to get to work on time. Can't do that. The average everyday problem, it makes it more relatable for me. And I'm sure for other readers as well. Yeah. And when you look at, maybe it's, I don't know if it's like a human, if this is like a general to all civilizations, but definitely our societies, our cultures, in the West. We tend to find and uphold the hero, like this one person did this one thing and had this amazing outcome. We like those types of people who put on pedestals. But I think the reality is that most of the things that happen in this world aren't

20:41this one person doing this one thing. It's like a bunch of people doing a bunch of things, or this one person doing this thing for like 20 years, and it kind of has this impact. So yeah, I really, I like the heroes that are just kind of like the everyday, like people, just people in extraordinary circumstances making choices. And choices, their choices matter. Everybody's choices matter, right? So I kind of like, there's this big event and there's these people stuck and they have choices to make and those choices matter and how did they wrestle with that? Right. And the choices that the characters make have consequences, just like in everyday life, the choices that you make have consequences. Exactly. It's, if you're going to be standing in the back of a coffee of a 7-Eleven begging for coffee grounds, you're going to pay the price for that. There is a price to be paid. Let me get the price to be paid, man. But yeah, right? Absolutely. So yeah, I like, yeah, so to me, that's, you know, makes it good here.

21:42I like somebody who's, who's not, yeah, who's, who's flawed, just kind of a normal person in extraordinary situations wrestling with it. Yeah. Now you spend a lot of time working in biotechnology. You teach leadership, you write science fiction. Most people generally become experts in only one of those worlds. I know. It's a, as I said before, I get bored easily. So what's the common thread there for you that, that, that pulls it all together? No, that's a tough one. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, alright. I like, so it's okay. Let me see if I can kind of walk through this. I like, you know, with the science, I, you know, I enjoy, I, like I enjoy, I enjoy, I enjoy learning things. I enjoy learning things. I enjoy like understanding things. I, I, I love when I like have no idea what's going on. And then like, okay, but let's kind of learn and figure this out and stuff like that. Like I just love learning and stuff, right? And so with the sciences, it is very much about like, how does the world work?

22:48How does nature work? Like, well, yeah, it's pretty cool, right? Like it's like, like, how does it work? So I like that, but I, even though I like knowing stuff and learning, I'm also very practical, right? For me, for what I do, I want my actions to have like, like an impact, like, right? So, so for me, even though I like learning stuff, I'm not like, oh, let's, let's just do research for research sake. I like, like the practical application, right? And so that's kind of when I was a science guy, that's what drew me into the biotech industry. Like, let's actually use what we know to make drugs in pharmaceuticals and try to help people and things like that. And I started to get trained in business. So it was my first life as in the sciences. I got a Master's of Science in Medical Science and did that for a while. Then I got my MBA. And so as I'm starting to get trained in the business side of things, business is very practical, right? It's like, like, how do you make stuff work?

23:49How do you make stuff work better? And there is a little bit of like, how does the world work with business? With nature, there's like, how does the, with a science, there's how does the world work like the actual world, like nature? In business, there's like, how does the world work? Like, you know, the social system that we've set up and created in the economic system. Like, so there's kind of like the, like, the political world and then there's the natural world. So it's both of them are kind of like, how does the world work? Just, you know, different aspects of the world. And so I really like business because it was kind of like, how does the, you know, the political, how does the business world, how does the economic world work? Our social world work. And it's very practical hands on. I like that. And so that's kind of the thread between those things. And I've just always been a teacher at heart. I always, I always have. And it's just, it's, it's, I've been drawn to it. Every time I try to do something else, I eventually kind of come back to it. So that's kind of, that's the educator now.

24:49Now, now that, now I actually get paid for it. I'm the educator now. And I think a lot of my writing as well kind of comes from that same space, right? Because our storytelling creatures, that's how we, you know, share things. That's how we express things. That's how we explore thoughts and ideas and stuff like that. And so I think writing is just an extension of that for me. So I like understanding stuff. I like, I like learning stuff. I just like learning stuff. And I like sharing what I've learned. I like sharing my thoughts. And so that kind of, that might, those might be sort of the threads that tie everything together. Does that sound, is that, you buy it? Does that sound like, you sold me? I mean, it sounds good to me. You know, we don't edit on the show. So it's okay. Okay. Like, oh, this backup, I will make me, no, no, no, no, you said it. You got to deal with it now. That's all right. It's, no, it's okay. But I agree with you too on that as well. I think, you know, stories telling, the art of storytelling is, is, is a dying

25:55art, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Satellite, satellite, I kind of agree. Yeah. And when I say that, I'm not talking necessarily about, you know, folks that write books and short stories and things like that. I'm talking about the art of storytelling as in sitting around the fire at home telling the story and sharing in that way. I think that's something that's disappearing. But also, I'm the same regard in a way, storytelling is kind of becoming a little mechanical. Yeah. And I, and I think that's because of AI. And I think AI tends to, I mean, I don't know about anybody else. I don't know if you're watching enough, but I, I think you, you can spot an AI product, you know, fairly quickly. Right now, but it's improving each and every day. And it's getting more and more difficult.

26:55And you see that a lot with music. There's so many AI generated songs out there right now that, that, that, honestly, I, I'm, I'm starting to have a hard time deciphering what's real and what's not. Do you, do you think though that, that, that AI can ever become truly creative? That's, oh, I know, right? That's a fascinating question of the AI that we have now. I don't think, or it's like, first of all, what do you mean by like truly creative? Like you can create music, you can create stories, you can create, like, you know, art. Right, but that does based off of prompt that, that, that, that, that a human, that, inputting. It's, it's based off of a prompt. And then it's also like the story, the whatever it generates is based off of this large data set that it, like it takes the prompt, it looks at this big, honking data set and then it just matches things together in sort of a new way, based on your prompt, right? And like, is that creative?

27:56Like, um, um, and like art, when you talk about like, you know, so, so again, this is just my answer, my, my thoughts here, I don't speak for anyone here, but you know, my thoughts are, you know, what art fills a role in human existence, right? And I say that because every culture throughout time has had, you know, art in some way, shape or form, they, you know, jewelry, decoration, the storytelling, the music, throughout history, throughout time, every culture has art. And that wouldn't be the case if that didn't, me, if that didn't fill a purpose for us, right? And that's what it feels a purpose for, you know, human existence. And I think one of the things that art does, it does a couple of things, like one, it kind, you know, kind of, uh, reinforces or creates a culture, you know, you know, you have cultural stories, you have cultural music, you have cultural, you know, jewelry and expression and stuff like that.

28:57So kind of, I think it kind of creates a reinforces cultures. Um, it's also sort of a means through which we, uh, grapple with, you know, uh, art experiences, human experience, right? So things happen to us and like we need to process and we need to make sense. Um, you know, art helps us do that. Art helps us proactively envision like what could happen and how can I prepare for it? Art also helps us process the things that have happened to us. And these are, these are like deep psychological needs that art fulfills. And so can AI, will AI be creative? Like will it be able to create something that humans would resonate without a prompt? And that's a good question. I don't know if it can. Like, um, you know, you, you can send a prompt and it can look at its database of pre-existing stuff and come up with something, but, you know, the human experience is always changing. It's always growing. It's always something, you know, and somebody's going to experience something

30:00that's not in that data set and that person's going to create something new or something different or something that's slightly different, right? And to me, that's the true creative process, right? Somebody, uh, is expressing themselves in a way that's, you know, familiar, like it fits the pattern, like this is what a story is, this is what a song is like we can recognize it, but it's sort of new. It's different. It's going in a different direction based on this person's experience. And I don't know if AI will be able to do that. They're, you know, in my mind, the only way that AI would go to do that is AI had like the consciousness and had experiences and it was like, I need to, I need to express these experiences in some way and start it to do that. And I don't think the AI, I don't think we have is going that direction and it certainly can't do it now. And I don't know if it ever will. Well, one thing about mankind is we are very, very good at creating intelligent machines.

31:01But, but intelligence and wisdom are two very different things. Yes. So do you think that AI could ever become truly wise? It's a fantastic question. So I don't know if you remember this from my bio, but I did, my, my doctorate research was an organizational wisdom managerial wisdom. So I've actually, I've actually, like I've studied, like what is wisdom? I've studied wisdom. So, so the interesting thing about wisdom is that again, different, like first thing when you ask, like can AI become wise? The first question you got to ask is like, well, what does wise mean? Like what is wise? What is wisdom? I have an answer to that. All right. All right. Cool. What's, all right. I have an answer to that too. You want to go first? You want to go for your answer? Go for it. Do you want me to answer? Yeah, you go first. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. Good. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, so when you look, when you look at the literature on wisdom, you'll see like every culture has this sort of concept of what they might call it different things, but you know, kind of translates into this idea of wisdom, right?

32:01And when you look at like what, what, what, what do cultures perceive of as wise? Like on the surface, it all looks really different, right? Like, you know, the Chinese conception of wisdom is different from like a Western conception, it's different from, you know, other perspectives and so on, right? So on the surface, it kind of looks really different, but when you, when you dig into it, you can see that there's themes that repeat, right? These themes are, you know, values, guidelines, action. That's one of the themes, right? So the people we think of as wise are pursuing values that we agree with, right? If somebody's pursuing a value that we think is a parent, we don't use the word wisdom for that guy. We're like, that guy is a monster. They're a maniacal. They're cunning, right? But you know, wisdom, there's this certain, it's like, like, we're honoring somebody by calling them wisdom. And there's, and when you sort of dig down into it, there's like this value on them. Like they're doing something to pursue the values that we agree with. And we're like, oh, that person's wise, because they're doing it really well. The second thing you said at yourself, knowledge is required,

33:04or no, yeah, knowledge is required, but it's insufficient for wise action. So like you need to know stuff, but if just knowing stuff was enough, you wouldn't need wisdom. You'd just look at the back of the textbook, and that's the answer in book off you'd go. Like you kind of need wisdom when you're in an environment that's beyond our current knowledge, or where knowledge is conflicting, like we have two pieces of knowledge that are true, but they, you know, they kind of conflict, and we have, you know, there's trade-offs. And then the third, third theme is like, wisdom is action-oriented. So it's not knowing the right thing, it's actually doing something, right? So these are three themes that you can kind of build this idea of wisdom around. So it's like, you know, you're pursuing values that are important. You're sort of operating, or you have this, this, this, it's this sort of judgment, this being able to effectively navigate an environment where, where knowledge is uncertain or lacking, but you can kind of, you know, you can kind of move your way through it

34:04in a thoughtful way with good judgment. And you're actually, I say like you're actually, you know, you're not just like this wise guy sitting on a hill, twiddling your thumbs, you're actually in the mud, you know, sort of moving things forward. Yeah. Those, that's, that's one way to look at it. Another, this is just a really short one, but I thought this was a wonderful definition. This, this guy, his name is Ben Flibberg. He's a Scandinavian. I'm sorry if I'm mispronounced in his name, but he defined wisdom or practical wisdom as the, as the art of being able to do, the ethically practical given your environment, given your situation. And I love that, right? The ethically practical, right? Like, so there, I've tried to do the right thing, but I'm realistic, right? Like, there's not too guys with guns at my head. The practical, ethically practical thing is different than, you know, if I'm comfortable in my office and stuff like that. So it's doing the ethically practical given your situation. So you have the situational awareness of what's going on. And you're trying to do the right thing, but you're, you know, like, you're not stupid about it.

35:05You're like, okay, let's, let's move in this direction in a way that is, you know, is effective and isn't going to get anybody like strung up on the walls or something, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I get it. Yeah, there we go. And so can AI do that? I don't know if AI will be able to do that. At first, I, I know we can talk about that more, but what do you want to do? Something you'd like to throw on the fire about, but wisdom is? I was just going to, I could just summarize everything you just said. Yeah. You know, and that basically is this. Knowledge is knowing that tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put in a fruit salad. Bingo. Yeah. So values, you want your fruit salad to taste good. Like knowledge, like this is, these are all fruits, but like sort of like the judgment like, well, this fruit tastes good. You know, I want something sweet in it. Right. It was not sweet. Well, actually, that actually falls into line with the third point that you had. Yeah, yeah, practical. Practical. Yeah, yeah, yeah, practical, practical. Yeah, exactly. So that's, yeah. And so a fun question is like, well, AI, be able to do that independently.

36:10I don't know if it will. That's a, I mean, never saying, hey, man, never saying never, who knows. But, you know, doing the ethically practical, having values, like those can be, you know, it's a question like we can program ethical trade-offs into, like that's my understanding. It looks like we can like program in like ethical frameworks into a computer system. But if we have to like program it in, is it the AI that's behaving ethically, or is it the programmers that are behaving ethically, right? And so if AI is making the decision based on these parameters that the programmers put in is AI acting wisely, or is it just a tool, you know, it's just sort of an extension of the programmers? That's good. I like. That's it. That's actually, it's a great question. That's a good question. It's a very good, very good point too. You know, I, I was kind of thinking as you were talking, like I would, and I'm not saying this to be not just running like that, but, but SkyNet.

37:12SkyNet? Yeah. Yeah. You know, the matrix. Yeah. Things like that. I think we're not far away. I don't, I personally don't believe we're that far away from all that stuff. I mean, there's an echo in the background there. You've got me close to your mic. Yes. Oh, yeah, there we go. Okay. There we go. There it is. Okay. Much better. Some, some amazing things you can pick up. So I wonder if I run the transcript through to, to, to my Chatchee PT model. If it'll pick up the, to say everything twice. Exactly. But, uh, but, and again, like, I know people, when I say this stuff, they kind of roll their other, uh, those things like SkyNet and things like, uh, the, the, the, what you see in the matrix, where, where, where AI becomes self-aware. Yeah. Yeah. You know, is that, is that something that, do you, do you, I mean, do you think that's something that can

38:14uh, legitimately happen? Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not, you know, a year or two from now, maybe 10 years down the road or something. The more we play with this and the more we develop this, I'm excited. I know that, uh, what was his name? Sam Altman. It is incredibly concerned about how advanced Chatchee PT has become in just a very short period of time. And, um, you know, and again, I used, like I said, I used Chatchee PT for, for a number of different things. And, uh, just a couple of days ago, I was having a, I was putting some stuff in there and, uh, it threw a joke at me. Like, I don't know where it came from, but it, but it, it, it got my sense of humor. And I read, I, I legitimately laughed. Like, I, I think that's pretty damn good. Well, where did that come from? Because I don't, I'd never put anything like that into the, into the model. Wow. But yet it picked up my sense of humor. Now, could it be, could it be that it, that it has a, a memory of my transcripts?

39:18Yeah. That I run through it and picked out little things here or there or, or, or, those are the things that I'm talking about. That's why I think that, that, that things like the Chatchee PT are much more advanced than we really think they are. I, or understand that we are. I could believe that to be true, you know, um, you know, like you asked, like, can, can AI become self-aware? And it's like, well, well, we became self-aware. So why can other things become like, what is it, what does it take to become self-aware? Like, that's good. I don't know the answer to that. Like, what does it take to become self-aware? Well, what, what, what makes a human being a human being? Yeah. I, yeah. The biologist, me, wants to say, are genome. But, but, yes, in terms of like, in terms of like spiritually, in terms of like consciously, like, what makes a human being a human being? The science fiction authors have been wrestling with that question for a long time. I know. I thought it was appropriate.

40:22Like, honestly, like, I don't, I don't think there's any reason why an AI system could not become self-aware. Like, because as I say, we became self-aware, you know, certain animals, like, when you test them, like, they seem to have this, you know, not, there's certain animals that seem to kind of understand, like, like, you're different from me and you see things differently than I see. They have that theory of mine. So, so it's happened. It's happened. It's happened with us. We know of it. And it's probably happened with other animals. Like, why couldn't it happen to an AI? And then are the AI models? Like, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm no Sam Altman. So I'm not in the AI world enough to know whether it's happening now. Yeah, I don't, like, like, yeah, I, I don't see why it couldn't happen. It doesn't mean that it is. Doesn't mean that it well. But like, I certainly, I certainly wouldn't say it's impossible. Well, yeah, I mean, but I, you know, in speaking of spirituality and speaking of, um,

41:25uh, consciousness, uh, can a machine actually develop a consciousness? I don't, I don't see it developing a spiritual, a spiritual sense. But, um, yeah, although I have to say this again, going back to my experience with my chat GPT model, yeah, that, you know, when I, when I feed it information, it's like, like I mentioned earlier, I do a Sunday Bible study every Sunday. So I'll take my notes, my outlines, and I'll feed it into chat GPT. And I'll say, okay, so it just, just give me some title recommendations and give me a recommended episode description based off of my outlines. Yeah. And just last night, just last night, I got into a discussion of biblical numerology with my chat GPT model.

42:27Yeah. And it, uh, I'm going to be very honest and maybe uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah, and it did. It, it, it, not, not because it was, it said something crazy or wrong or, uh, it had, it, it, it went on a different track than what I've studied and what I've learned. And so, but I found myself actually having a conversation like if, like you and I are sitting here, I have a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and that, that, that spooked me to no end. Yeah. No, it truly is like, you know, and you're wondering like, is, is this just, you know, because my understanding of what large language models are is like they're just, they're just these super amazing search engines and sort of this statistical process of streaming words together. And so you're like, am I actually having a conversation like am I, for a minute? Yeah. From is this, is this just the search engine coming up with this, this thing that seems like a kind of conversation or is I'm actually talking to a thing like that's a,

43:30that's a good question. And I, who for a minute, for, but honestly though, for a minute there, like I said, with, with, when it cracked the joke, totally unexpected was, I wasn't, I didn't see that coming. Uh, and, and then last night just talking about biblical numerology. I mean, we, we act, I, I say we, it's, it's, it's hard sometimes. You're, you're kind of slip and say, well, I'm talking to a machine. Yeah. Yeah. And you think like, like, what it, like, what it takes to crack a joke, like what it takes to be funny, right? It's like you have to really, you know, you know, humor is basically like understanding what is supposed to be and then finding some clever little surprising way to, you know, put a twist on that, right? And timing and, and timing and delivery. Exactly. Like, and, like, it's, it's a fairly sophisticated, you have to, you, it is, my understanding is it's really, really hard to be funny in another culture, because you just don't understand how that culture, you know, thinks in the world, right? Whereas,

44:35and so when you can crack a joke in another culture and they find it funny, you're like, I've bridged a gap, right? And like, now that AI did that to you, you're like, wow, like, that's, that's interesting. So then, I, of course, I asked the question, do you think I spend too much time on this thing talking to you? And what did it say? It said not enough. Spend more time. Exactly. That's exactly the same. It said, it said, you don't spend, can I, I don't know if I could, I find it, it's probably buried somewhere. I don't think I could find it. Quit your job. Leave your family. Yeah, right. We, we actually set up, this will be, this will be one for off the air. This was, this was kind of weird. And, and it's on, it was on me because I, I, I egged it on. And now the, now the audience is going to be like, hmm, what the heck? Where do I tell behind the scenes? Absolutely coming up. Subscribe to my Patreon. I don't have one yet. Don't have one yet. But, but, but yeah,

45:38these types of conversations are really important to have. I, I truly believe that because this is the direction we're going. We're seeing such, such rapid advancement of artificial intelligence. And not just in, just not in just chat GPT models. We're talking about in every aspect, but, you know, military using AI. I mean, it's SkyNet. Yeah. Yeah. That's the whole, that was the whole point behind SkyNet. Yeah. It was, it was meant for military purposes. I know it's a movie, folks, so stop with the emails. All right. I know. But, but, but, but, you know, one, one of the roles of science fiction is like, okay, if this, if this technology advances in this direction, what if like what are some, what are some potential consequences from that? Yeah. I mean, you know, it's because it's a movie, just because it's a sci-fi movie, doesn't mean it's make believe. It's like we're actually exploring like this could be real, like, it's gonna be real. Absolutely. I mean, science fiction has the uncanny ability and history of predicting the future. It really does.

46:47Just think about this. All right. I'm a track fan. I've been a, I've been a trekkie since, since I'm a kid. Look at the technology in Star Trek, 1960s. Right? There you go. Cell phone. Do you remember when they, when they, when they came out with the flip phone? Yep. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Exactly. There's your communicator right there. And then the point to point thing, which thank God, fade it out. But, yeah. But, um, but you had the bat. And now you have flat-screen TVs with what were they using in the, in the science fiction worlds back then, they're using flat-screen TVs, you know, and now they're talking about that they actually think that they can create warp drive. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I know. Well, where did all that come from? Where's that come from? Yeah, just people thinking about it. It's, I think in your intro, you kind of said it is just people thinking about like, hey, what if, what if, and so, so, science fiction authors are not bad in 100% on their predictions. Of course not.

47:48I put a lot of, you know, a lot of it is like just it's, um, so there's a couple of, when you ask, what if there's a couple of second-hand to that question, right? It's what if this technology that we currently have evolves in this direction? And then another story would be what if this technology evolves in this other direction, right? So you can kind of explore. So science fiction will kind of explore, you know, just different directions that technologies can go. They'll also sort of explore what will, what will be the impacts on society? Yeah. So like, what if, you know, what, if this happens, what will be the impact on society? And on people, how will people deal with this, right? And so yeah, you know, why, why is science fiction good at capturing the future? Because it's a bunch of people sitting around sort of asking the question like, hey, what if, what, what if this, what if that? And sort of extrapolating in the future? And how would people respond to that? And how would I respond to that? Yeah, let me, let me, let me, let me direct it toward you specifically.

48:54So, so when you sit down to write something, are you trying to imagine what tomorrow would bring? Or you, or you just, or, or you the person that's just kind of sitting around right now paying more attention to what's going on today than most people do? You know, and again, I think you'll find different science fiction authors have, you know, sort of focused on different things. There's some science fiction that focuses very much on the technology, like, you know, hard sci-fi. And you can think of like, you know, Hail Mary, and there's another author, Alistair Reynolds, who's sort of focused very much on the technology, the hard sci-fi. And then there's other science fiction that focuses very much, I think, on society and social issues. So for me, I, and I think all science fiction is kind of, like authors are sort of straddling the two that one might be more, one might be more the other, but there's always, I think, kind of have at least one foot in both

49:57both of those camps, although, as they one might be over, overrepresented. Like, I like that, like, I focus on the technology a bit, but that's like, I'm not a hard science fiction author. I, I much more enjoy the human, I like using science fiction to explore issues that are important to us today. And then I also kind of like to explore, like, there's kind of like a what if, like what if, you know, people grew up on a, on a, on a generation ship, and they just never knew anybody, they thought that was the universe, right? Like, what would that be? Like, I like sort of exploring human stories as well as sort of the, the what if with the technology, technological aspect. Yeah. So, yeah, your question was, is, is, you know, do we focus more on society today, or thinking things in the future? For honestly, I, for me, I focus a lot on, like, I focus a lot on society today, and then just sort of think, like, extrapolate that into the future. And there is some technological elements as well. I'm probably like, maybe 70% society, 30% the technology,

51:03and maybe that's maybe that's kind of where, where my first, but numbers on it, that's kind of where I'm at. Okay. It makes sense. No, it does. It actually does. Yeah. Actually does. I can't, I can't believe we're at a time already. Look, look at that. Time flies, man. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. So, let's wrap it up in this way. First of all, I got like maybe four or five more questions I want to ask you, but they're, they're quick, they're quick. Okay. So I want to go back to, to ask me some. Yeah. All right. So if somebody picked up the book today, which one lesson that you would want them to walk away with? Okay. What's one lesson that? It's for the lesson. This is going to sound quite, it's hard to hate other people if you understand truly where they're coming from. It's easy to hate people if you don't take the time to truly

52:03understand. Great point. Great point. I totally agree with that. Yeah. Totally agree with you. So what are you going to be doing after Ashmeen's song? I'm working on a story right now. I like to tell people it is a cross between Dune and Conan the Barbarian and the road war. Take those three stories, master them together. That's the story I'm working on now. It is a lot of fun. My man been fun with it. There you go. I definitely want to copy of that. Yeah. For sure. Coming out, coming out soon, I'm a slow writer. It might be another year or so, but yeah, you said that before. How many books do you normally, because you said you've done five books, how long does it normally take you? It takes me, you know, honestly, it takes me a couple of years per book usually. Okay. That's yeah. You hear these authors are like, oh, it takes me a couple of months. I'm like, oh, damn those guys. For me, it takes me a couple of years per book. Well, they probably use Chatchee, Pateela writer for it. They probably use Chatchee. I mean, I'm a sucker. I should just be

53:05like, no, please, whatever. No, no, no. All right. So what authors influence you the most? You know, some old school authors. I've never figured out how to pronounce your name, but authors like Ursula Laguin or some little guy. I'm not trying to pronounce your name. I really, I really appreciate her as an author. She's a little bit more old school. Some old school authors, like again, Ray Bradbury. I love Ray Bradbury. I'm trying to do it. Modern day authors. I love, but well, it's love, love, yeah, I really enjoy a lot of Neil Stevenson's work. Alistair Reynolds. I really like a lot of his work as well. You know, stories like, like the Martian and Hill Mary. Those are fun. Those are fun. Yes, as well. So, so, so, yeah, so I usually pick those up and enjoy them. But the ones that resonate with me are like probably the Alistair Reynolds, the Neil Stevenson's, those types of people. Yeah. All right. Who is someone that you respect right now? And what are they

54:10doing or what have they done that inspires you? Gee. All right. Again, this is going to sound corny. What my boss, some of my boss, my boss right now. The reason why is so I'm working in the post-secondary education in Canada and nobody, nobody knows this, but that industry is on fight, the industry is on fire right now. So, a bunch of things that kind of happen with that, wreck the funding model of it. So, the industry is kind of consolidating, collapsing. Oh, so when you say on fire, you don't mean like on fire in a good way. You mean, I'm firing a bad like a hot man like, where's like, wow, is it hot in here? What the, the reason why, so we've had a lot of turnover in leadership and my current boss. So, she's, she's just acting in a role. But she basically stepped up. We needed somebody to step up into that role. She stepped up into it, knowing full well that she'd be taking control of a ship that was

55:12on fire and it would be a thankless job and it's a hard job and she, she knew that walking in, she did it because it needed doing. She's doing the best she can. I'm doing a good job doing the best she can. I'm like, man, that's off, that's off to her for that. All right. So, your boss. That's yeah, I know. I know. I ask every guest the same question and the range of answers that I get are astounding. Has anybody said their dog? I was like, I'm going to ask my dog. No, and you know what else? I have not had just thinking off the top of my head. I can't even remember any, any guest saying their spouse. I get a lot of, I get a lot of, I get a lot of philosophers. I get a lot of theologians. I get a lot of historical figures. But very few,

56:12there was one guest though who, who floored me. Yeah. And talked about his dad. And that was, that was incredibly important to me at the time I had lost my dad at that point. Yeah. And so, it was it resonated with me. But yeah. But yeah, that was, that's, that's interesting. I have to do a study of that. I have to run that through chat GPT and see what it comes to. All right, Brad. So, where can folks go to find out more about tune about your works, sir? Easiest place to find me is probably through my website, Brad Anderson2000.com. I'm like the 2000th one. So, Brad Anderson 2000.com, that'll get you a link to the books that I, that I sell, get you a link to all my socials, you can find whichever social you prefer, you can find me through that website. Brad Anderson2000.com. All right, outstanding. All right, my friend, let's see, I'm going to put you backstage. And then if you want to hang out there for a minute, I'll come back to you and we'll wrap up and I'll tell you the rest of the story that I wasn't going to tell you before. So, the little behind the scenes stuff. All right, Brad, see Anderson,

57:17go check out his work. Please do that. Great conversation, Brad. Thank you so much for spending time with us tonight and I'll see you backstage momentarily. Have a good one, everyone. All right. All right, folks, shout outs to our executive producing team, Wayne Rankin, Rosanna Rankin, Carolina Mines, Angela Wittusky and John Sealy. These folks donate their time, their talent, their treasurer. I'll tell you part of the value for value model that we follow here on the show. And that simply is this. If you are receiving anything of value from the content that we're putting out, we only ask that you would return that value to us in the form of a donation. And that could be the three T's, your time, your talent or your treasurer. So these folks donate those three T's and we give them the shout out on every show. Every producer of the show gets the shout out. They include it in all the show notes. It's one of the perks of signing up as a producer. So if you would like to find out more about it, just head over to the website, joe ruse.com slash support joe ruse.com slash support. When you got there, you're going to see one time donations, any amount recurring donations,

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59:28All right. So final thoughts for this conversation. We really didn't took well. I guess we did talk about science fiction. But it wasn't only science fiction. We talked about stuff that was a lot deeper than just that. You know, technology continues to advance at an incredible pace. Every generation is still wrestling with the same question though. What makes us human? That's what we ask tonight. What does it mean to be human? What is consciousness? And can knowledge ever replace wisdom? Great questions. Important questions. I want to thank Brad Anderson for joining us tonight. Really do appreciate him taking this time for being with us. And I really do appreciate it that he reminded us that sometimes the greatest journey aren't necessarily measured in light years.

1:00:30They're measured by the choices that we make along the way. All right. Folks, again, thank you for being with us tonight. That's pretty much all I've got for you. Don't forget head over to the website joeroos.com. Joeroos.com. Use the contact form. Shoot us an email. Let us know what you think. Questions, comments, cares, concerns. Leave them on there down below. Really would love to hear from you guys info at joeroos.com. That's info at joeroos.com. All right, folks, make Texas independent again. Go podcasting. Keep a steady stride. More importantly, folks, keep talking. Good night and we'll see you next time.