Best Interests | EP 10 | Season 3

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. This is Matt Rogers from Los Cultures. This is Matt Rogers in Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Cultures. This is Matt Rogers in Bowen Yang. You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like, okay, hold on. I got a new favorite food. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Cupid Mayon. Yeah, it's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it at the grocery store. And this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Cupid only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Eggs sandwiches, fries, burgers, chefs use it, restaurants use it, people who really care about flavor use it, put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. Ryan Reynolds here from Int Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did.

1:00And have one of your assistance assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at MintMobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra, feeful terms at MintMobile.com. The crispy chicken crunch wrap slider that you love is back at Taco Bell. And it's back with attitude. Because now you can enjoy the all white meat chicken nuggets, inside a slider sized crunch wrap with Hidden Valley Diablo Ranch. What do you love most? The crispy chicken nuggets, the crunch wrap slider, or maybe the Hidden Valley Diablo Ranch? But yes, the answer is yes. The crispy chicken crunch wrap slider, a brand new classic is back, only at Taco Bell. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Juanio, where two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions,

2:00and at this point in my foot, these I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to take you back to something you heard at the beginning of this season. It's a new story about Cindy and Kenny. Well, we begin here in 930 with the jury awarding more than $21 million to a couple in Steamboat Springs after it found the woman's ex-husband pushed false allegations of child sex abuse. Back in 2024, a Denver TV news station interviewed Cindy and Kenny. I've been saying it for years. It's never happened. And I just couldn't get anybody to listen. I felt listened to. I felt like I was going to be a baby. I felt like, uh, vindicated. For them, it's been about clearing their names and something else.

3:00And I hope to one day see my children and tell them what happened, and I hope they don't feel in any way that they're responsible for this. They want the children to know the truth. This story is about giving these children a chance in life to know the truth so they can make their own decisions in the future when they're ready. I'm going to put my family back together. It's hard, but I'm going to do it. Even with the truth on her side, Cindy faced her hardest battle yet, piecing together her broken family. I'm Nancy Glass, and this is season three of Birdon of Guilt. Episode 10, Best Interests. Back in 2024, journalist Rob Lowe worked for KDVR TV in Denver.

4:00He hosted a weekly segment on the Nightly News called Problem Solvers. Basically, I was an investigative reporter who really had free reign to kind of do longer format in depth pieces that I thought were of interest. One of his segments featured Cindy and Kenny. I picked up on the story after a Steamboat Springs jury awarded them $21 million, basically for defamation. That, to me, was the type of verdict where juries clearly trying to send a message of how egregious they thought the biological father had acted and how so many in the system had got things wrong. I just can't imagine anything worse than a father trying to convince his kids they've been sexually abused if they haven't. Who does that? It's so messed up. Even with Steve on the hook for more than $20 million, Rob reported that Cindy paid out more than $8 million in legal fees. You know, not many people have $8 million to pursue the truth,

5:00but that is obviously how strongly and passionate she felt about this. After 30 years in TV News, Rob said, this is one of the stories that will always stick with him. We know that divorced cases can get very better, especially when they involve children and custody, but this one was so extreme. Cindy, you know, she had a really telling quote in the story where she said something effective had to choose between the truth and my family. I was asked to choose between my children and the truth, and for four years I had to choose the truth. You're always trying to separate yourself as a reporter, but that was the first time in 30 years where I literally got Terry listening to Cindy, because as a parent myself, I just couldn't imagine something as awful and horrific. And now the final chapter, Cindy's three children. In many ways, her children are the primary victims in this case.

6:04Unfortunately, this is just not a strong enough word for what happened to them. At the time of this recording, Cindy's daughter is an adult. She's in college and living abroad. Earlier this year, we contacted her, but she did not want to do a formal interview. And since her brothers are still minors, we didn't reach out to them. We don't know what the children believed to be true or what they've been told about their mother. We don't even know if they're aware of the verdict from the civil trial. What we do know is they still reside with their father Steve, and up until recently, they had no contact with their mother. She still doesn't have custody of her kids. She's still just trying to have a normal relationship with them and hopefully get them to understand that there's just all bogus. And even though a jury found that Steve, the children's father, had orchestrated a scorched earth campaign to win full custody from Cindy, Cindy's twin boys are still living with Steve.

7:04I know how deeply that troubles Cindy in particular, because this is her kids. She desperately wants to be with and have a relationship with. And yet she's really been preventive from having a meaningful relationship because the family court system has moved so slow and certainly not in a direction favorable to her. It seems like it's always been favorable to her ex-husband. This really seems to be a case of parental alienation on steroids. Parental alienation. According to journalist Barbara Bravy Haggerty, it's a controversial term heard in a lot of family law cases. Parental alienation is basically a process through which one parent turns a child against the other parent. It's essentially a child being used as a weapon to hurt the ex. Back in 2020, Barbara wrote about parental alienation for the Atlantic. It was something I'd never heard of before.

8:05But one day one of my very close friends confided in me that his marriage was falling apart and more troublesome was that his child was withdrawing from him. He was worried because he and this five-year-old child were just some of his best buddies. Later, I heard the wife, bad-mouthing my friend, saying to the child, daddy's late again. Do you know what that means? That means that daddy doesn't love us. I mean, I was shocked. Her colleagues' child ultimately refused to see him. And it has been 15 years since he's talked with his kid. And I just can't tell you how brokenhearted he is. He said, you know, this thing that I'm going through, it's got a name. It's called parental alienation. In her article titled, When a Child Is A Weapon, Barbara wrote that when one parent turns a child against the other,

9:05the family courts are often at a loss as to what to do. Even when the court ends up ruling that a child has been coerced into shunning one parent, if the kid still doesn't want to see that other parent, the judge is like, hey, when do I need to do? Put a 16-year-old in handcuffs? What the courts have done is remove the child from one parent and place the child with the other parent, the alienated one. Sometimes the courts take it a step further and send the child and alienated parent to what are called reunification camps. These camps are usually at hotels far away from the child's home. They meet with a therapist for four days. They watch videos about psychological manipulation. They try to discuss problems as a family. And what support to say is that it's giving the kids a chance to reconnect with the unfaithored parent

10:06to step back and kind of reconsider their assumptions about that parent without the dominant parent breathing down their neck. These camps last about four days and cost tens of thousands of dollars with an average price around $20,000 and a judge often prohibits the favored parent from communicating with the child for 90 days. That's crucial because it allows this break in the relationship and if there is brainwashing, it allows a break in the brainwashing. Critics, on the other hand, call it torture camp for kids. The backlash against reunification camps began after video surface of children screaming and crying as they're forcibly removed from their homes, thrown it to vans and driven to these camps. It's led to some states outlawing them. I'm not at least a bit surprised at a lot of states have gotten rid of reunification camps.

11:06I mean, most psychologists think it's bunk and they think that the treatment is dangerous. In her research, Barbara said, she found the results of these camps to be mixed. What I've noticed is that when the programs, quote, work, the children essentially switch allegiances. They cut off their formerly favored parent and embrace the formerly unfaithored parent. It's basically all or nothing. So whether a child ever reconciles with the mom or dad is really at this point, a matter of luck. So the question is, how do the courts and therapists handle kids who've been brainwashed by one parent into believing the other parent is a terrible person? The scary answer is, no one knows. Reunification camps are hugely controversial. I think what we need is some fresh eyes on this problem. We need to acknowledge that it's a problem.

12:09And then someone needs to take it seriously and look at it from the point of view of the kids. How do we fix this? How do we not damage these kids for the rest of their lives? My research tells me that it's a zero-sum game. One side wins and the other side loses. And in the end, the people who lose the most are the kids. The kids are the ones who lose. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford. And I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skin care line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results. And then you just go out and live your life.

13:09Meaningful Beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself reaching for over and over again? The sweater that somehow works with everything, the jeans that always fit just right or the bag you can carry everywhere. Well, those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe. And that's exactly what Quince does so well. I recently ordered a few things for my grandson. A 100% organic cotton sweater set and the bamboo long sleeve and pant pajamas set. I love the Quince. It brings that same attention to quality and kids clothes that made with soft comfortable materials and feel like pieces that can keep up with that active little one while still being really, really cute. The prints and colors make them fun and I feel good knowing he's comfortable. Quince uses premium materials like organic cotton bamboo

14:11and Mongolian cashmere and everything is designed to be worn again and again. They also work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman so you're paying for quality rather than a big brand markup. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for the most hit Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was burden of guilt. It's the best way to support the show. This is Matt Rogers from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Okay, we've been talking about Cupid male for a minute now, Bowen. Wow, the feedback we're getting. I mean, so many of y'all love this stuff. You're stopping us in the street going, I love Cupid. And if you're thinking, wait, what is Cupid?

15:11Do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise. The one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. Once you know what, you start seeing it everywhere. People ask what makes it different from basic mayo? Well, the answer? Egg yolks. Cupid is made with egg yolks only, giving it this incredibly rich umami flavor that elevates everything. Burgers, fries, sandwiches, chicken, noodles. Chefs use it, restaurants use it, people who really love food and flavor use it. Whatever you're eating, Cupid hit. So if you haven't tried Cupid yet, find the bottle with the red cap and see what everyone's talking about. You'll understand. Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of the What Happened to Her Podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise.

16:11Sometimes it's a police uniform. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. Ever since divorcing Steve, Cindy's been in and out of court with him. First, there was the litigation involving their former company, Wildcat Minerals. Then came the civil trial that resulted in a $21.3 million verdict for Cindy and Kenny. In between, Cindy and Steve have spent nearly a decade in family court. Family court is this kind of quasi court where the judge has a lot of discretion.

17:11A lot. And they are the only person making decisions. As Cindy learned, the family court system is notorious for being slow and expensive. It's a place filmmaker Ginger Gentile has researched extensively. In a murder case, you as a journalist can go and get any public records. You can't walk into family court of most jurisdictions and pull documents. It is to protect the family, but it also means that it's incredibly secretive what goes on. So some states like Colorado don't have a dedicated family court system. So divorces and child custody cases end up in the courtrooms of district court judges. That's what happened in Cindy's case. She often refers to it as family court. But in Colorado, it's more of an ad hoc system, one that lacks specialized legal infrastructure. Everyone says we'll just go to court, just tell the judge what's going on. And it might take you two years to get a day in court.

18:12And these judges don't have training in childhood psychology. They don't have training in the latest science, for example. So depending on the jurisdiction, this could be a punishment post for a judge. It could also be a post that they rotate in and out of. Along with having untrained judges, I think a lot of people have fantasies about the court system. That there's some like forensic team who's going to like rush in and look at everything. People will collect mountains of evidence, but no one's ever going to really read it. So they just look at the top line. They look at what the psychologist says in the court case. The biggest issue with the court system is the courts will always look for who's at fault. And once they get a narrative in, they'll try to find supporting evidence for that. So a lot of people eventually get very frustrated. Cindy experienced that intense frustration. You think you're going to walk into court, you're going to get your kids back? No, they're going to find some other weird way of just keeping this going until the kids age out.

19:19After Judge Mary Hoke restricted Cindy's parenting time in 2019, Cindy went back to court over a dozen times and each time she's been denied. You go through every single stage of grief. You go through that shock. Like, this isn't happening, is it really? There's a bit of denial. Then the anger comes. A lot of anger, frustration. It was an emotional roller coaster to say the least. At one point, Judge Hoke gave Cindy a set of goals to work toward. It's like refraining from it, including the children in adult conflict. And one of them is not to be litigating. Judge Hoke's goal said, quote, Cindy needs to place the needs of her children over her continued focus on litigation and being right or vindicated. When I saw the mom needs to stop being focused on being vindicated,

20:19it was kind of like, what are you after here with that sentence? Think about it. If Cindy wasn't supposed to focus on being vindicated, how could she prove to Judge Hoke that Kenny did not abuse her children, especially when Judge Hoke asked her to bring proof of Kenny's innocence? She told me I needed to give her a piece of paper that said this never happened. She literally told me that. So I'm thinking I'm going down the past she told me to. When Cindy appealed DHS's ruling and got the abuse findings overturned, she thought that was all the evidence Judge Hoke needed. I give it to her. That piece of paper meant nothing. She says you haven't made the progress that I need to see about being vindicated. I'm like, I am dedicated. I haven't appealed as this overturned. None of it made sense to Cindy. And the whole time she's punishing me. Well, you can't get your kids back until your litigation's done.

21:21Or you drop your litigation. But look at what the litigation proved. They were all wrong. They didn't want to be proven wrong. If you remember, even after the District Attorney dropped child abuse charges against Kenny, Judge Hoke came to her own conclusion. A voice actor will read from that court transcript. I believe that something inappropriate occurred between Mr. Ham and these children. I'm not being careless. I'm basing this on nine days of evidence is what I'm doing. Nine days. All right. I can make the finding. And I would posit that I am duty bound to do so. And I've done so. And then after DHS reverse their abuse findings, Judge Hoke held firm. She says, well, I don't know why they overturned it. So I'm just going to assume that the abuse occurred still.

22:22That's what I'm up against. I'm up against a judge who cannot see. She's made a mistake. We'll never acknowledge it. And uses my children against me until I agree with her. Cindy felt like she was hitting a brick wall with Judge Hoke. So she tried a different route. She hired an expert on parental alienation. My name is Dr. Jennifer Harmon. I started studying parental alienation and other forms of family violence 13 years ago. As you heard earlier, parental alienation is a controversial topic. It's not a diagnosable medical condition, but rather a theory that turns up in family court. Like I've seen parents say to their, you know, five year old, hey, dad's going to be picking you up after school today. So get your backpack. Get everything ready. And the kid sits there for two hours waiting for dad to pick him up. Even though dad didn't even know that this was planned. It wasn't planned. It was just told to them so that mom could make the kid think that dad forgot about him.

23:27It's that kind of stuff that makes me do the research I'm doing to protect kids because look at the kind of parent these kids are living with. Dr. Harmon reviewed numerous messages, court filings, the DHS report, the children's forensic interviews and other recorded interviews. With parental alienating behaviors and coercive controlling behaviors in general, they are patterned. You usually see them happen in escalate in times where the parent feels they're losing control. When you build a timeline, you say, all right, well, when do people feel like they're losing control? They feel like they're losing control when the other parent remarries or gets engaged. They feel like they're losing control when there's a big court hearing or they lost something in court, right? What she found confirmed what Cindy believed about her ex-husband Steve. This wasn't just a sex abuse allegation gone wrong. There was a lot more going on in the background.

24:28Dr. Harmon believes the timing of this allegation was calculated. Cindy started dating somebody else and then there was some financial stuff that was going on. But right after that happened and she got a lot of money from a settlement, things took a serious turn. She goes off to get engaged and then they come back and there's a salification of abuse. I could see it totally with how Steve was reacting with police and the things he was saying. Like, oh, he'd been waiting for years to get her and comments about how they just wanted full custody. This wasn't just one-time statements. There were emails, there were different events that made it clear that he had an agenda of what he was hoping to do. And he was trying to find somebody to get the leverage he needed to do it. So that was my conclusion after looking through all of it. Dr. Harmon put her findings in a 97-page report. She even spent three days testifying in front of Judge Hoke.

25:32Dr. Harmon said this is course of control, this is domestic violence. And Judge Hoke said, nope, I don't think so. A voice actor will read from Judge Hoke's ruling. She still seems deeply entrenched in alienation. She seems deeply entrenched in vindicating her, her significant other, and moving forward with her version of events. And she's welcome to do so. But it's this court's position that that is not in the best interests of her children and is in fact emotionally damaging to her children and emotionally impairing to her children to do that. No matter who I put on my team, Hoke was always going to be against it. Didn't matter. In 2021, Steve asked the court if he could take the children and move, not just out of state, but off the continent to Hawaii and Judge Hoke allowed it. Any hope Cindy had about being apparent to her children went out the window. With that ruling, she accepted that she probably would not see her kids again until they were adults.

26:41That was dark. I hate the courts. They don't want to see anything that doesn't conform to their views. I don't know what's wrong with those people. They're just, they're so myopic, they're so myopic. In a story already marked by relentless heartbreak, watching the court allow Steve to move the children to Hawaii was Cindy's absolute rot bottom. Here's Dr. Harmon again. Like it would be nearly possible for her to be able to see the kids at that point. I think it's very sad. It makes me sad to even think about how bad it got. Cindy's effectively been erased from her kids' lives. A lot of parents liking it to their children being dead, but they're alive. I mean, because they're essentially dead to that, right? You know, the kids have cut them off completely. It's the same kind of grief.

27:50Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skin care line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results. And then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com. This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture East. This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture East. This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Okay, we've been talking about Cupid male for a minute now, Bowen. And wow, the feedback we're getting. I mean, so many of y'all love this stuff. You're stopping us in the street going, I love Cupid. And if you're thinking, wait, what is Cupid? Do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise. The one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle.

28:51Once you know what, you start seeing it everywhere. People ask what makes it different from basic mayo? Well, the answer? Egg yolks. Cupid is made with egg yolks only, giving it this incredibly rich umami flavor that elevates everything. Burgers, fries, sandwiches, chicken, noodles. Chefs use it, restaurants use it, people who really love food and flavor use it. Whatever you're eating, Cupid. So if you haven't tried Cupid yet, find the bottle with the red cap and see what everyone's talking about. You'll understand. Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of The What Happened to Her Podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snow storm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeartTrueCrimePlus subscribers.

29:58So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeartTrueCrimePlus and subscribe today. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show! Oh my god, Lexi. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie To Me. I'm Lexi Iwaneo, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Jelio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not gonna get any worse than fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight.

31:00Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Lier. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. After winning a $21.3 million verdict, Cindy once again returned to Judge Hoek's courtroom. She hoped the ruling would finally unlock the custody stalemate she'd been in for the past four years. And this time, it worked. Well, sort of. A voice actor will read from Judge Hoek's order. This court restricted Mother's Parenting Time primarily on Mother's refusal to accept the allegations of abuse against Mr. Ham. But Judge Hoek wrote that the civil verdict was significant evidence that Kenny did not abuse the children.

32:05If the sexual abuse of one or more of the children did not happen, that finding removes the primary basis for the court's restriction on Mother's Parenting Time. It also removes the need for Mother to comply with the court's treatment goals the court previously stated Mother had to meet. In other words, Judge Hoek's goals were moot. The court is then left with hell to proceed. The court vacates the restrictions on Mother's Parenting Time, but does not order any parenting time for Mother at this time. This order is in the best interest of the party's minor children. It's a confusing ruling, but Judge Hoek allowed the children to continue to live with their father, Steve. They wouldn't allow the children to be removed from Steve. This is so outrageous. This is so not normal. It just keeps getting weirder and more bizarre. Every time we had the court, my entire case has been a complete disaster from beginning to today.

33:09And I still don't have my kids. I mean, we're going on seven years now. Judge Hoek ordered reintegration therapy. Okay, stick with me here. Reintegration is different than being sent to reunification camps. It's an intensive type of therapy to reunite parents and children. Generally speaking, this type of therapy takes well over a year. And by the time it began, Cindy's daughter was 18 and had aged out of the system. So therapy included Cindy, Steve, and the twin boys. Due to hippo rules, Cindy can't comment on how that therapy is going as for Cindy's relationship with her daughter. I reached out to my daughter on her 18th birthday when sent flowers to the school. And I reached out through a three-text and I'm like, would love to talk. And she just said she wants nothing to do with me. She was the last one to turn.

34:11Cindy and Kenny's engagement has been on hold for years ever since it began, really. We've been delaying it just because we wanted the kids at the wedding. But it's looking less and less like that's ever going to happen. I'm just hoping that maybe in the next year or so, I'll hear from her. Earlier this summer, we spoke with Steve. We even exchanged a few messages with him about doing an interview. A voice actor will read from Steve's email. As we discussed, I have concerns. I understand that your deadline is late summer. You mentioned that you attempted to contact me via gmail address. I do not have a gmail address. I am also on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. A message could have been sent through any of these platforms. As your team conducts investigative journalism, I am really struggling to understand how you could not find me.

35:16My address and phone numbers are also public. To be clear, in 2025 and 2026, we message Steve, although Steve claims that the gmail account we message does not belong to him. Additionally, we reached out to three of Steve's lawyers, Steve's niece, and even Steve's mother, Aleda. At the time of this recording, we haven't heard back from any of them. Earlier this summer, Steve sent us a follow-up email. A voice actor will read from that. I believe that you stated that you attempted to reach my mother. She has no record of your firm emailing or calling. It's confusing that you found my daughter's email address, but cannot locate mine or mother's. In July of this year, we again messaged Aleda through her email text and Facebook. We have not heard back. We also sent Steve an outline of questions we hope to discuss.

36:17A month later, we followed up with him. At the time of this recording, we have not heard back from Steve. If you remember, it wasn't Cindy who came to us with this story. It was Steve's second wife, Christine. But Christine also hasn't agreed to do an interview citing her ongoing legal issues. And that's left Cindy and Kenning wondering what's on Christine's mind. She's still never, ever. Apologized and said she did anything wrong when she was a participant in the manipulation, in the false narrative. And now she wants to be the victim as in she's suffering and she has lost. She had so many opportunities to turn this around. As for Cindy, when we first approached her about sharing her story,

37:19she was hesitant, but wasn't an easy decision. She was concerned about how her children would react if they ever heard the podcast. Ideally, I hope they understand that I did it to help. It's not about exposing their dad. It's not about embarrassing him. I'm doing this to expose the system and how flawed it is and how it's failing families. Now that I got caught up in it, you know, it may not help my relationship with my kids, but I don't want my boys accused of doing something like this and have them arrested and have them lose their lives and spend the amount of money that I have to. I can only hope that this doesn't happen to them. She hopes that one day her kids will be able to piece together what really happened. I put a puzzle together for you. I've done the borders. I've done certain places. And over time, as you grow older,

38:19you are going to start putting those pieces in. And it's going to start filling in. And then you'll start understanding what happened, even if you don't understand it today. And you will see what really happened here. Even if we can't be together. For years, Kenny felt that burden of guilt. Kenny has resolved those feelings. He's kind of moved on. You know what I want? I want never seen another courtroom. Never talked to another attorney. Never been involved in any of this stuff anymore. I now want to just move on with my life. I've cleared my name. One that's civil, exposed to people that did what they did, especially Steve. So that's out there. I feel good. I don't feel good about what happened, but I sure as hell feel good about moving forward with my life, even though I'll be traumatized and my life's forever changed. But I just want Cindy and I to move forward, love each other, and live our life the best we can. And the kids today are still suffering from what he's done.

39:20And of course, that bothers Cindy. So last winter, we connected her with Ginger Gentile. She's the filmmaker who studied parental alienation and the family court system. You heard Ginger earlier in this episode. I made two movies about this. One is called a racing family. That's about children reuniting. And after that movie came out, a lot of parents asked me to help them reunite with their kids. But I was a filmmaker. So at first I said no. And then I meant, Jay, I said yes. Fast forward, I quit the film industry. And now do this full time. And I have a team of coaches, all ex alien moms, dads, and kids who do this full time. In this case, Ginger got together with Cindy. So Cindy could write a letter to her kids. It was a virtual session and they allowed us to listen in. Ginger started with an exercise that would help Cindy focus

40:22on what she wanted to say. But that exercise took Cindy in a direction she did not expect. Cindy, I want you to see visualized feel imagine that you are walking along a beautiful beach. And as you keep walking, you see in the distance the kids. You keep walking. And as you keep walking, you see your eldest child. And she runs over to you and gives you a big beautiful hug. I need a moment. Cindy removed her headset and quickly left the room. A few minutes later she came back. What's going on Cindy as you think about this? It makes me feel uncomfortable. Okay.

41:22What didn't you like about it? I don't want to have these thoughts. I don't want to even imagine it. It's too uncomfortable. What's uncomfortable? Because there's too much hope behind it. I've been doing this for six long years going on seven of, oh, people are going to figure this out. Oh, this is going to turn around on the next week. Oh, this will turn around by the end of the year. I've been doing this for seven years. I don't know if you're going to have it. It's like trying to tell somebody that has no leg. They're going to someday run or they're blind and they're going to see someday. It was just impossible. And every year you tell them, oh, this is the year. This is the year. It's going to turn around for you. I can't even do that imagery. It's just you painful. Sorry.

42:27Cindy says there are days when she's hopeful. And then there are the days where Oshikin think about is despair and everything she's lost. But she does hold on to hope that one day her children will accept the truth. So I don't think I'm going to have a relationship with my kids ever again. It makes me cry just thinking about it. I mean, when your kids are still alive and you know you will never see them again. You're kind of in limbo all the time. You know, wondering kind of hoping. And then you don't want to get your expectations up. Your hope up because then it just gets crushed again. I try and be hopeful about it. I try. I've already missed a graduation, high school graduation. I've missed God how many eight mothers days Christmas. I'm going to miss a lot more. I've not accepted it.

43:27And I know it. That makes me sad. One afternoon almost 14 years ago, Cindy's twin boys were running around their backyard. All of a sudden things went quiet. And then came the sound of laughter followed by splashing water. Cindy's had climbed into a short little bird bath. They were about to. I was cracking up. I could take it a little bath. Cindy snapped a photo so she could remember that joyous moment. It was the cutest picture of these two boys. These days Cindy often finds herself looking at that photo. And each time it puts a smile on her face. It's a reminder of the good memories she had when they were a family. Yeah, that was that's a good memory I have.

44:29I even told the boys I said, you know, even with everything that happened, your dad's not going to take those memories from me. Nothing is. Thank you for listening to season three of Birdon of Guilt. You can reach out to the Birdon of Guilt team at birdonofguiltpodadgmail.com. That's birdonofguiltpodadgmail.com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at GlassPodcasts. Birdon of Guilt is a production of GlassPodcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeartPodcast.

45:30This series is executive produced and hosted by me Nancy Glass, produced by Todd Gans. Also produced by Ben Federman and Andrea Gunning, additional production support provided by Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique LeBord. Our associate producer is Jade Abdul-Moleek. Our production manager is Kristen Milkury. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Pronechak, audio editing by Dean Welsh. Audio mixing and mastering by Anna McLean and Matt Delbeckio. Thank you to our voice actors James Palumbo, Lucy Kohler and Tanner Robbins. The Birdon of Guilt theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by Mib music. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app or Apple Podcasts.

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