Where Is Austin Tice?: 6. A Meeting in Muscat

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1:05unified system. Try for free today at odu.com. That's odu.com. Hello. I just want to make you aware that this episode contains some strong language. It's been three months now since an American freelance journalist went missing in Syria. His name is Austin Taise, 31 years old. Tonight Austin's parents are in Lebanon hoping to learn more about what happened to their son. By November 2012, it's been two months since anyone has seen Austin publicly. The last sighting was in a staged abduction video that appeared on YouTube. So his parents tap her mark, travel to Beirut. They know Austin is somewhere across the border in Syria, but this is as close as they can get to him. We're here to appeal for help from people

2:07in the region, and especially to whomever is holding our son Austin, that they treat him well, keep him safe, let us contact him, and most of all return him to us as soon as possible. On a small stage, they peer through a sea of microphones, place that by the press. This is the beginning of a media campaign to bring global attention to Austin's case. Our main purpose is to try to make contact with our son and to bring him faithfully home. There's an exhaustion in their faces that comes from being parents who can't reach a missing son, and that's a feeling shared by many families. Throughout the Civil War, Syrians are disappearing in huge numbers, and Austin isn't the only American. At least 11 American citizens have been jailed, tortured,

3:09or killed. James Foley was working for a French news outlet. A female American hostage. Another US reporter, Stephen Soplov. Syrian American aid worker, Laila Schwickani. I've had friends and colleagues go missing in Syria, and when you spend time around hostage cases, one criticism comes up again and again. America has a hostage problem. Not because it lacks power, it has highly effective intelligence agencies, diplomats, law enforcement, and a military that can seemingly go anywhere. But each part of that system has its own priorities, so they don't always work as one or share information effectively. So opportunities to help people can get lost inside that system. And this is what Deborah Tyson's taught me. She feels happened to Austin's case for the first 18 months of his abduction.

4:16In her daughter's kitchen, over many cups of Earl Grey, I asked Deborah about February of 24. When she decided to go to Syria to look for her son alone. How did you arrange to go to Damascus? Did you just get on a plane or what did you do? I made sure that nobody knew what I was doing, and I flew to Beirut, got in a cab and went to Damascus. You got in a cab and drove all the way to Damascus? Yeah. Why aren't you scared? No, no. The only thing I was scared of was that my government would find out and prevent me from going. That was the only thing I was afraid of. How long did you plan to be there? I didn't have a plan. I ended up being there three and a half months. And what were you hoping to achieve? I had no idea. But at least I would be there. I had pictures of him that I gave out flyers. I met with quite a few people in the Syrian government.

5:19Deborah, who has never been to the region before and doesn't speak Arabic, is now inside the Syrian regime's surveillance state. The sky told me that he had Austin and he wanted like a $150,000. For Austin? And then he showed me a picture that I had. He showed you a picture of Austin? Yeah, but it was the one that Maklachi had printed. I was thinking of taking it off the internet. Yeah. And then when he showed me the picture and I got really angry, he said, okay, $20,000. And he's minacing me on my chair. He's trying to intimidate you. He had his guy come in and his guy had on an AK, on an eye and a pistol. I'm praying like crazy. What do I say to this person? And then I ended up saying things that I would not think God would tell me to say. But I have my mother pointer finger right on his nose and I'm just threatening him.

6:21Finally, the foreign minister invited me to meet him. But while I was walking there, I got a call from Mark that said, have you heard that the United States has closed the embassies in Washington, DC? We'd already closed that. Close the Syrian Embassy. Yes. And the two consulates. To try to stop the Assad regime committing more atrocities against civilians, America has sanctioned the regime and limits official communication with the Syrian government. For Deborah, this timing is terrible. It traps Austin's case in a diplomatic standoff. And so, moments before my meeting, the meeting with the course council, I never had a chance to get it again. I did all I could in Syria. I did everything I could think of. Was it difficult to leave Syria? Yes. I felt like abandonment. I felt like I was failing and abandoning my son, the father.

7:26A few months after Deborah's visit to Damascus, the stark reality of the Syrian hostage crisis is late-air. US officials are trying to verify the authenticity of a video that purportedly shows the violent killing of an American journalist. It shows a man in an orange jumpsuit kneeling in a desert area and then he is executed by a man in black who is standing next to him and the man in black. James Foley, an American journalist who'd once tried to help find Austin, is executed by ISIS on camera. The video is addressed to President Obama. ISIS say his death is a warning about America's intervention in the region. It's a moment of horror felt globally. Families of hostages have told us and they've told me directly about their frequent frustrations in dealing with their own government. It is true that there have been times where our government,

8:31regardless of good intentions, has let them down. In June 2015, almost three years after Austin's disappearance, President Obama overhauls the American hostage recovery system. Pressure has been building from the family members of hostages like Deborah Tyson and Diane Foley, James' mother. As a government, we should always do everything in our power to bring these Americans home safe and to support their families. Despite the changes, Austin still hasn't been brought home and Deborah has consistently told me that she feels let down. So what has the American government been doing to find Austin Tyson? I'm Josh Baker and from BBC Radio 4 and MPR's Embedded, this is Where Is Austin Tyson. Series 3 of I'm Not a Monster Presents

9:36Episode 6. A Meeting in Muscat There are typically three ways a government can get someone like Austin home. The first is money. Some governments pay. The United States doesn't. The second is the military option. Special forces going in to rescue him. But that's the Hollywood answer. In reality, it's incredibly dangerous and it would only work if they know exactly where Austin is. And the United States doesn't. The third option is to talk to the captors. But the Syrian regime won't admit they have Austin and the Americans won't officially talk to them. I recognize that a big voice walking towards me. This is Roger Castins. A former Special Forces soldier turned America's special

10:38presidential envoy for Hostage Affairs. I first interviewed him at the four seasons hotel in Damascus just after the regime fell. He was there with the US delegation searching for Austin. Roger, would you just give me some levels? Sure. One, two, three, four, five. I've come to see him in Washington, DC. Because back in 2020, Roger managed to begin secret conversations with the Syrians by Austin. How do you begin to set up a back channel with the Syrian regime? The American government had not really engaged with the Syrian government diplomatically in eight years. It's challenging to restart something because if you go into a meeting at the White House or the State Department and say, hey, I'd like to go talk to the Syrians about Austin ties. The knee jerk is to say no. We've stopped talking to the Syrians. And in a way, what I tried to do is get permission to start reaching out to intermediaries. And I started talking to the head of Lebanese

11:41intelligence. Shot him, no, no, what's up? And said, hey, I'd like to introduce myself. Maybe I've brought a conversation. I said, my goal, however, is to eventually meet the Syrians on the topic of Austin ties and other Americans that have gone missing in Syria. How did he receive that? Very warmly. So this huge geopolitical global issue is essentially being orchestrated over WhatsApp. Yeah. I find like diplomacy. If you can remember what it was like to be five years old on a playground, all diplomacy is as that, except you wear suits and ties and everyone's gone to Harvard. It's the same stuff in terms of communicating, I think. So you get this text, what happens then? Head of Lebanese intelligence came back and said, look, they're willing to do this. But if you do this, you cannot bring up Austin ties. So they said, they'll meet you, but you're not allowed to talk about Austin. Correct. And I thought, well, that's really a strange request since I've made it clear. That's why I want to go. But I said, sounds good. I hear what you're saying. If you would please pursue with the

12:46Syrians an opportunity to meet with them. Why do you think they were trying to shut that down so much? Our general thought is they wanted a chance to tell us what they wanted before we went in and started demanding information on what we wanted. So we finally get an invitation to go to Damascus. My counterpart at that time at the White House was Cash Patel. He's not out of the FBI. He's not out of the FBI. And so essentially I'm like, let's go together. And he said, yep, let's do it. So I land and we drove off to Damascus from Beirut. Once free to the intelligence quarters there. So we were sitting there with the person who was at that time, we would have said is the number two or three in terms of power within the country. And we'd also Ali Mamluk. Indeed, Ali Mamluk. Who is the like head of all intact? Correct. Smart, intelligent, well dressed, super articulate, commands a room. But I have to think

13:47that he's probably the one that gave a lot of the orders that resulted in the deaths of well over 100,000 Syrians. And so I was sitting across from a person who was probably not the nicest guy. Ali Mamluk is one of President Assad's most trusted men, deep inside his in a circle and central to Syria's intelligent state. So a conversation with him is by extension a conversation with the president. First off, they wanted the United States to pull entirely out of Syria. So we want every US soldier and all US equipment out of Syria. Number one, number two, we want to reestablish diplomatic relations. But as a start, we'd like you to open up your embassy in Damascus. And number three, remove all sanctions. And if you do all that, and when you've done all that, then we might be willing to talk to you about your concerns. I asked in ties and they did not say

14:47I'll send ties. They said about your concerns. What goes through your mind when they say that, because those aren't small requests, right? Those are geopolitically shifting requests. Yeah. The huge. Yeah. I mean, I think I probably didn't want to judge too much of my mind what was in the art of the possible at that time. Really, you weren't in your head going like, well, that's never going to happen. Well, you know, because I always wanted to like, what could we get away with? Why don't we cooperate on counterterrorism? So maybe the idea that we have to remove every soldier out, that could be transitioned into something else. In terms of sanctions, maybe I could talk him down a little bit on that and on the embassy, maybe what I could offer there is to say to them, well, why don't we get a team out there? And we'll take a look at it. So instead of just saying no, no, no impossible, ain't going to happen, I'm thinking to myself, I wonder what I could get away with that might result in me getting some information in Austin ties. So Roger is considering whether the US government could make concessions to the Syrian regime. In effect,

15:51that beginning to negotiate. You have obviously been told not to bring up Austin ties. I brought it up. The one thing that could speed up this timeline is if we could get some information on Austin ties. Through that out there and to their credit, he actually leaned back in his chair and he responded. We spent, you know, about 15 minutes or so talking about, what did he say? No one would ever really bring up Austin's name, but who are these people that you're talking about? Because we have there other Americans too that were that had gone missing and I was able to actually slide a list over to them and they were, you know, in a way playing a game of, we don't know about these people. So tell us more. And what I tried to do is not to be too accusatory at that point. We'd like your help in determining what happened and if possible, finding him and them. So in a way, you're kind of leaving the door open for like, if they want to miraculously invent, we found this person, we found 100% in a barn somewhere. 100%. That was absolutely conscious and

16:58say that if we could, we would like to work together and maybe you could help us in locating Austin ties in these other Americans. Roger returns to America and debriefs with intelligence agencies, politicians and diplomats. He gives them every bit of information he can. What was said, who was there, he even draws a diagram of the room. As they start to consider what their next move might be, President Trump goes on Fox News and is asked about President Assad. It is true that after a side gas children for the second time that it was you that wanted to take out a side that you had a good side on them and that was General Madison talked you out of it. And if it is true, do you regret not taking him out? I would have rather taken him out. I had a ball set. Madison didn't want to do it. Madison was a highly overrated general and I let him go. He worked for Obama. He says he wanted to kill Assad. His statement goes viral. The Syrians go quiet.

18:02And two and a half years go by before the Americans can get back in a room with them to discuss Austin ties. This time Roger Sands is deputy and President Assad appoints a new envoy. Bite into a stacked sandwich made with hero bread or a fully loaded bagel and the only thing you'll think is delicious. You won't think it's up to 19 grams of protein, but it is. You wouldn't believe it has 11 to 32 grams of fiber, but it does. Hero bread makes loaves, buns, tortillas, bagels and noodles packed with taste but without all the net carbs. We're talking 0 to 5 grams net carbs per serving. With hero bread, there are no compromises. Just flavor. There's none of the stiff baked goods you expect from better for you brands. There's just the soft, fluffy bread you crave. Plus small batch drops of indulgent favorites like the popular 2 gram net carb hero croissant and

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20:09at Schwab.com slash Washington-wise or wherever you listen. Hi. Hi. Hi. I was stuck with a traffic now. The number of cars in Damascus may be tripled since the fall of the regime. This is Imad Mustafa. He led the Syrian delegation. He's thin with a shaven head, smartly dressed as you'd expect from a diplomat. I've been told he's shrewd even a brilliant negotiator. Would it be possible to put a microphone on you? In downtown Damascus, my colleague Sara and I are shown into his living room. Syrian art adorns the walls alongside Ornate furniture from China, his last diplomatic posting. We sit and begin to discuss the secret talks that this time took place on neutral territory,

21:12in Muscat, Oman. We arrived to the guest house and then the American delegation came. Exuberant, happy, started shaking hands with everyone in the Syrian delegation and asking me about if I slept well and in which hotel I was staying. I am sure they already knew in which hotel I was staying. How was my trip? Was it comfortable? You know, the American style. So the ice melted immediately and we engaged in a very, very long discussion, we had closed five hours, twenty minutes. So we discussed almost everything. We're Syrian crisis, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, everything. What sort of things would I say to you, Bar Austin? They would say and repeat time and again, nonstop. If you engage with us trying to find where is Austin Tauyze, we promise you it will be a game changer and things will change

22:12between us and you. They are willing to withdraw from the oil fields and gas fields that they are occupying in northeast Syria. So they were willing to physically move their troops in Syria. Did it surprise you that they were willing to offer something that big? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So in that says the Americans came to the table with a big offer. If this is true, it's hard to overstate its significance. Today the White House announced the first deployment of U.S. forces to Syria. Dozens of special operations troops will be sent. American boots will now be on the ground in Syria. In 2015, American troops officially enter Syria to fight the militant group ISIS. Over the next few years, the group is crushed into an insurgency. But the Americans don't leave. Around 2000 troops remain in Syria. Many in strategic areas.

23:16U.S. military convoy is helping secure oil fields, not only from ISIS but from Syria and Russia as well. Keeping the oil. We have the oil. The oil is secure. We left troops behind only for the oil. The troops give the American government influence over vast oil reserves, potentially worth tens of billions of dollars. Reserves President Assad once. And Imad must have said he's being told that they might give that up for Austin Tice. This could reshape alliances on the ground and redraw the map of who controls what in Syria. All for one man. Let me pause my conversation with Imad for a moment. I need to take you back to Roger in Washington, DC. Because when you hear Roger and Imad sighed by side, the truth of what happened in these talks becomes much clearer.

24:16Imad has said to me that it was put on the table that America would withdraw its troops from Syrian oil and gas fields for the return of Austin Tice. I've always wanted to say this. I don't think I've ever said it in seven years of doing this work. And that is I can either confirm nor deny that. I couldn't talk about it even if I wanted to. Imad where there's a limitation on how specific you can be. But theoretically that would be a huge offer for Austin. Yeah, it would be huge. Visaville, ISIS, the Kurds, the Turks, the Syrians, oil fields. I mean, it would have been huge. Some people will look at that as you are willing to essentially potentially make a concession for one American citizen that would in some ways prop up Assad if that was to go through. And this is a mass murderer. Are you conscious of that disparity between the value of one

25:18American life and a concession that might be given that could influence the lives of countless Syrians? Yeah, I mean, obviously, we really are. And how do you weigh that? Yeah, gosh. So many ways I could answer that. And by the way, there might be ways that I would feel about it personally. But whether I felt that one objective was better than the other, my job at a certain point was to lay out all the objectives and represent Deborah Tyson's views as well to lay everything out there so that the national security adviser and the president could render the best decision that they wanted. And then my job's to execute. I understand Deborah Tyson spent a lot of time with her. But there were also, you know, countless Syrian mothers. You're talking about more than 100,000 Syrians disappeared in that same situation. And I can't help but feel at some point there is a greater prioritization of American life going on over Syrian life here. And that made me because that's the job. Or what, have you? Yeah, I mean, I guess a few things. Number one, that is the job. You know, you're there

26:22specifically to get Austin Tyson out. I had a chance to participate in the return of 65 Americans while I had this job for five years. And every night after we get a return, you know, you go and you look at yourself in the mirror and you should be elated because you got that American back. But usually in a way you're elated, but you're also sick to get your stomach because you know to get that American back, you had to give something, you had to do something and make some sort of accommodation with a cruel regime. Oh, thanks for free. Nothing's for free. The Americans offer, you say, this huge geopolitical gift to Syria will give you back the oil and gas fields will move our troops. How did President Assad receive that information? Please, you have to remember, we never trusted the Americans on any promise or play. From the Syrian perspective, all promises from the Americans are hollow promises that they

27:25will never honor or keep. President Assad had a very bitter experience with the Americans. He disappointed him many times on Iraq. And his father was disappointed also by them many times. It's an amazing how interested the US was in the fate of Austin. But it also confirmed what everybody in Syria thought. But Austin Tais was not just an ordinary journalist who came and disappeared in Syria. What you mean by that? With all this interest in Austin Tais, incredible interest, he must be a very important CIA operative. There were other Americans who were being held in Syria and who were missing, like Majd Kamal Mazor, Leyla Shwikadin. Did any of these names come up in the negotiations? On person, like if they have talked about Austin Tais for 300 minutes, they mentioned these names once in half a minute, and that's it. For years, the only reason they were

28:32contacting us was Austin Tais. Tens and tens of different people, from Lebanon, from Jordan, from Iran, from the United Arab Emirates were contacting the Syrian government and trying to find out anything about Austin Tais. He became the Idhay Fiks, the only subject that the Americans were interested. It was such an open book. I could literally probably write 30 pages on how many times I heard that from all the countries he must have been a spy. I think the Syrians are surprised by the scale to which the focus was on Austin Tais. And they became convinced partly because of the scale of the US effort on Austin and other reasons that he was a member of the CIA. I think it would also make it hard for the series to wrestle with his, he's a former US Marine. The guy was good looking in shape. If you wanted to look like what a CIA officer might look like, I mean, that's Austin Tais. Good looking, well built, tough, smart, combat

29:35vet officer. And yet he wasn't. He was a journalist, out there doing his job. Austin wasn't a CIA. No, no, he was not. Unequivocally. Unequivocally. He was not a CIA. He was a journalist. There was another thing that Imad has said to me. Imad's read was that he felt there was a disparity between the focus on Austin compared to other US hostages. Do you think that's fair? I would say that Austin might have received the reponderance of diplomatic time. Well, for the main reason that if you can get a breakthrough on Austin, then you've opened up the door. You put your foot in the door and can start perhaps making more progress on the others. And we lacked strong information on all those cases. I think there will be some people rightly or wrongly who feel that the Austin as the sort of white American poster boy to some degree was prioritized, they'll say like American hostages like Madge Kamalmaus, the psychotherapist or Leyla Sraikani, the human rights activist, people with a sort of more Arab heritage and things like that. Do you think that's fair?

30:39I can see that perspective. I would probably destroy your interview if I told you all the time and effort that we put into trying to get Madge Kamalmaus back. And again, me Austin was kind of like the the breaching tool that got us into the meeting and we'd spend time talking about to the extent that we were allowed to by the Syrians. Roger comes from the School of Thought that says you do whatever you can to bring Austin and other American hostages home. But Washington doesn't think with one mind. Some people look at Syria through a very different lens. Hello. How are you doing? It's so lovely to meet you. Okay. Hello. Josh, right? Yeah. This is James Jeffrey. He was the special representative for Syrian engagement, the closest thing America had to an ambassador. Before becoming a diplomat, he spent a lot of his life around war, Vietnam, Iraq, and later as an advisor to the director of the CIA.

31:45He tells me that part of his job on Syria was to destabilize or as he put it, fuck asset. He was coming at Syria from a very different viewpoint to Roger. And over the years, he'd become aware of some of the attempts to get Austin home. The hostage negotiator for the Department of State came into my office and said he wanted to talk about the important issue of Austin Tice. It's your job to make sure his particular, I won't say hobby hustle, something as important as Austin Tice, but his particular issue does not come to be the defining issue of a much broader geostrategic issue. Are you saying sort of Austin is one issue in a sea of issues? Right. Exactly. And you don't want Austin's case to become disproportionate to a wider vision. I don't want our Syria policy to be taken hostage by people who think that the only issue

32:47with Syria of importance of both other top priorities getting iced and toast back. I won't go into whether they should or shouldn't. I would want somebody to try to get me back. I guess it's interesting, isn't it? Because in that scenario, what you're doing is you are, you're getting a human being home, yes, you're also getting a big political and public win, but you're trading potential stability or policy that can affect the lives of millions. You're doing that. You're also opening the door to a repeat. Because you're signaling to the Syrian regime or other regimes, hey, we will pay. Right. We will modify our geostrategic goals in the region to your advantage and to our disadvantage to get Americans back, including the next American who gets grabbed. I met, I think, twice with the mother and father. It was very difficult. You could understand as a father, I could understand their pain, and I could understand their desire that we, the U.S. government, do anything at any cost

33:50to get their son back. I would have had exactly the same approach. So the American government's position is not clear. But despite this, a few months later, they returned for a second round of talks in Moscow with Imad. But this time it was a different meeting. They were not as warm and friendly as in the first time, and the meeting was short, it lasted one hour, ten minutes. They were curt, and they were very clear. Are you going to engage with us or not? I really, really wanted that this could have happened. Really, genuine. I want a little bit to alleviate the suffering, the daily suffering of the people. Getting back some oil and some gas will help generating more electricity, having some income. The people were really suffering. What they were looking for is for us to come and tell them, okay, guys, we are willing to engage with you on looking for ostentatized.

34:54But I could not discuss ostentatized, because those were my instructions. So the meeting ended quickly. I wasn't able to say anything. What Imad is telling me changes the way I understand the Syrian position. He tells me that before he ever entered the room with the Americans, Assad had given him strict pionries. I met with President Assad one day before our departure. I asked him, I'm innocent, question. What about if they insist on knowing the fate of ostentatized? He said, we don't know anything about it. What if they insist that we cooperate with them on looking for ostentatized? He said, we don't have him. I told him, Mr. President, since we don't have him, then this is a very good diplomatic overture. We will prove to them that we are very positive and constructive. And let us together work on trying to sort out the fate of ostentatized.

35:56He said, no. You are not allowed to discuss ostentatized at all. The Americans are occupying our oil fields and gas fields. They are bombarding us from time to time. They are the cause of the death of tens of thousands of Syrians. And they have imposed sanctions on the Syrian people. They are suffering because of those sanctions. And they are only worried about ostentatized. How did you feel when he said that? I felt that the whole trip to Muska would be an exercise in futility. But just to confirm, sorry, there was never a conversation had about what Syria might want theoretically to just engage a little bit with the Americans or give a proof of life. Or, okay, we will think about working with you to find Austin if you do X. Discussions internally never got that far. This is a puzzle to me. I find it very mysterious.

36:57Very mysterious story. I don't know why Assad refused totally to engage with the Americans on ostentatized. I don't understand why he wouldn't tell them he is dead. I don't understand why if he were not dead at the time he did not want to use him as an exchange bargain with them on something or another. Too many things that I failed to understand. I myself, I'm still in search for a meaning to this story. I don't understand it. Is there anything you would like his family to understand? I can understand their sorrow and their pain. After all, this is their son, their family member. They need to understand that almost every family in Syria has the same amount of pain and suffering. It's universal here in Syria. It has been very, very tough 15 years for us.

38:00It continues to be in many aspects. So from the beginning, Iman says he isn't really there to negotiate. He has no power to make a deal, no information to share, no mandate to discuss Austin. No matter how much he wants to trade Austin to try to help his country, the president won't let him. As had only goal seems to be to keep Austin's detention secret, no matter what is offered. The question that we would always ask in our meetings was, if Austin's still alive and Assad has him or knows what happened to him, why in earth is he taking this long? Surely there's something he wants from us, absent these three huge things that are almost impossible. But I think either he killed him and Assad did not want that hung over him

39:02or he was playing a very long diplomatic game in which he might have Austin or have information about Austin, but was going to wait for the right time to use that as leverage to get something that he wanted out of the United States government. In the weeks before the fall of the regime, there was the potential for another round of talks, and this time the Syrians were seemingly going to send some more senior people. Did you take that as indicator that Austin might be alive, the fact that they were still willing to talk at that stage? I think my belief that Austin was alive was based on, I would say, evidence that I'd seen that people did walk out of those jails that had not been heard of in, you know, 10 or 20 years, based on the what scant trell of evidence we had. I chose to meet the group of people who looked at everything and the conclusion was that Austin is alive and he is waiting for me to somehow find a way to get him out.

40:05So Roger hoped that the next round of talks might actually bring Austin home. But before he could find out if that was going to happen, the regime collapsed and President Assad fled to Russia. After years of talks with the Syrians that never proved Austin was alive and with Austin still missing, one key question comes into my mind. When was the last time that anyone saw Austin alive? And I think I know who can answer that. You've been listening to Where Is Austin Tice? Series 3 of I'm Not A Monster Presents. Please share, rate and review the show. It really does help. If you have any information on Austin Tice, you can email me directly on Josh at BBC.co.uk.

41:08Or message me on social media at Josh Baker Story. The series is written and showrun by me, Josh Baker. The investigative producer Isara Obidat. The series producer is Simon Maibin. Field producing by Uday Al Hussein. Additional producing by Lucy Burns. Open Source Intelligence by Thomas Bordeaux and Gabor Friesen. Our production coordinator is Gemma Ashman. The series editor is Claire Fordham. The head of BBC News Long Form Audio is Emma Rippen. And at BBC Radio 4, the commissioning editor is Dan Clark. At MPR, our producer is Monica F. Starchiver. Editors are Robert Little and Katie Simon. And the executive producer for Embedded is Irene Nagucci. The composer is Ferras Abel Faker. Additional music by Karim Shahouri.

42:08Theme music by Sam Slater. And it was mixed by Tom Bricknell. If you've got a scrolling problem, then this is the podcast for you. It's called Top Comment with Meematch A. And Meem Ariana Spring, we both investigate social media for a living. Whether it's disinformation, conspiracy theories, internet culture, memes. We're going to be getting behind the stuff that is popping up on your feed on this podcast. That's Top Comment on BBC Sounds. Self-directed investing, trading, full service wealth management, automated investing, financial planning, thematic investing, retirement planning, few. And to think, that's just a small taste of what Schwab offers. Because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances, choice matters. No matter your goals, investing style, life stage or experience, Schwab has everything you need, all in one place, so you can invest your way. Visit Schwab.com to learn more.