What the Lindsay Clancy Mistrial Revealed About Every Level of the System

0:00This is Matt Rogers from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try on new food and suddenly it's like, wait. That's the reaction. A lot of people are having when they first try Cupid Mayo. It's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake. Because this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Cupid only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers, some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it, restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Never try it. Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're out of the store. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise.

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3:02Because this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. QB only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Examages, fries, burgers, some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it, restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Never try it, grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. QB, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Hidden Tillers Live. Tony Ruski and Robin Dree. Well, the Lindsay Clancy trial has obviously come to an end. But the scuttle but the controversy around all of it certainly has not.

4:02There's a lot of questions that are still out there. A lot of questions about the holdout juror. Were they following the letter of the law in terms of a reasonable doubt? There's evidence. There's claims from some other jurors that on that charge, that responsibility of being a juror, that maybe they were. But were they holding true to the other? Part of their responsibility of holding true to their convictions. If you believe they believe they did what they did, because that's what they believed, then they were. The two can't really be in the same room at the same time. But the jury instructions ask you to make both of them coexist. We're here to explain why they can't. And why it's not necessarily a problem of maybe the juror or the jury, but more so, the rules to which govern them, the instructions to which we say, here, play by these.

5:02Oh, wait, they don't make any sense. Well, figure it out, kids. There's only someone's life on the line. Here to help us do all of that, Bob Mata, defense attorney, House of the podcast, defense diaries, joins us for Tuesdays with Bob, along with Robin Drake, retired FBI Special Agency for the Counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, and masterclass extraordinaire, Robert Drake. He is with us as well. Bob, I've been looking forward to talking with you about this, because I mean, it gets into the legal weeds and it gets a little confusing, very confusing as you try and work your way through it. But let's start here because the argument that's being made on social media, and I get it. To see from the letter of the law did this hold out juror, have reasonable doubt. Other jurors are saying that he admitted to having reasonable doubt, but just flat out refused to check the box for, for not guilty by reason of insanity. Because he was following his convictions, both things,

6:03true at the same time, kind of leads to a bit of a problem now, doesn't it, Bob? Sounds like it anyway. Bob, your mic's off. Sorry about that. When I drink my coffee, I mute it so you don't hear the coffee. How polite of you. I mean, you know, but the end game as I leave myself muted, which happens all the time in my show. Yeah. Look, man, like before we even jump into it, everything that we know about what's been going on in that room or what went on in that room is coming from four or five of the people who, in theory, have lost the argument, right? So the holdout hasn't set a word. So what I'm doing is I'm taking the account of the people that are speaking as their own accounts, it's not a finding. So you know what I mean? And until we actually hear from this, if we ever do, these are the accounts of the people who were in that room, but they are accounts,

7:03they are not recording. We're not looking at the tape. No transcript of it. There's no transcript of it. But for arguments sake, if it's accurate, if he said, you know, I've got a reasonable doubt, I see the reasonable doubt, but I don't care. I'm not doing it. You know, reasonable doubt is in an opinion you get to hold and then decline to act on. It's a switch. Like once you flip it, the verdict form itself is filled out. That's it. If you said, well, there's a reasonable doubt, boop, that's it. It's over. There's no more conversation. Like this is that there is no back and forth. If you say that there's a reasonable doubt, that's it's done. The deliberations are done. That's how that thing operates. And it's just it's the one thing that your orders are not permitted to do. I mean, if it's true, if he said, yeah, okay, whatever, I see the reasonable doubt after seven days of everybody screaming at him.

8:05And he says, this is where I'm at with it. I see that there's a reasonable doubt, but I don't care for all the reasons that we've talked about for the last month. You know, he's one of those, I've maybe one of those high for an eye guys. Yeah, you know, like I like he's killed her kids. She gets punished period and the conversation, which is and I keep saying this, it's it's fine to feel that way. It really is. Yeah, well, even the instruction saying it's okay. You can't serve on a jury if you feel that way. You have to admit that bias coming in. Everything that we're talking about now is about that concept. Yeah, it's about the concept of being truthful to the attorneys and to the judge when they're picking a jury. It's you know how hard it is to pick a jury in a high profile case where people haven't formed an opinion. And if they have a form an opinion that they're not biased by the opinion, can you imagine how hard that is? And you can also imagine too this this this juror any of the jurors, you don't know what you're

9:09going to feel until you're presented that evidence too. So you could very easily have said very honestly, I don't have a bias towards this. I can do this because the worst you've ever seen is something in the movies. And then when you're sitting in the courtroom looking at photos listening to 911 calls, your mind might completely flip and said, F no man. So 100% 100% and also his context, you know, so the jurors that I do this all time on our own show here where I will hear something a certain way and I have my own think thought process and what I thought I was hearing and I regurgitate it back. So I mean, and great point Bob at the very beginning and we said this yesterday, it's here, say from those jurors that are reporting what they heard, he could have very easily said something that effective. I hear that you have doubt, but that's and said, but what they might have heard was I hear that I abdowed. So what I mean, I mean, it's a simple little plan where is that they wanted to hear something so they heard something. So there's all, it's very muddy until he comes out.

10:12It's it's even more muddy because the damage instructions also say, do not surrender your honest conviction as to the weight or effect of the evidence solely because of the opinion of your fellow jurors or for the mere purpose of returning a verdict. It basically says you can have your opinion too. Yeah, it does say that and here's the thing though. You know, in terms of people caving to their convictions, there is absolutely no requirement to do that. Again, I'm going to repeat the thing. If you say the words, yeah, I see that there's a reasonable that it's over. Period. That's not changing your convictions. That's refusing to follow the law. You may not like the law. You may not like it and that's a different that's a different issue. If you live in the the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and you hate that statute because it puts the burden on the common wealth to try to prove a negative, which is very, very difficult. If not impossible, that's fine.

11:16You don't get to go into a court of law as a juror in elect not to follow the law. That's not how this thing works. Wouldn't it be easier if the law just was clear? She really said that because it doesn't because it went when you're trying to decipher the language of the dam instructions, it says that and then it walks it back. Five different ways. It doesn't it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't look to you. You're an attorney. You know how to read this to the jurors they don't. I don't know how to read it. I probably better than the average person now because I've been doing this for a while, but it's still clear as fucking mud. Yeah, I think and that's the problem. I mean, I have no problem. Like if he didn't follow the law, then that should be understood and looked at. We need to fix that problem. What makes it worse? Like Tony, I've spent my entire career every lawyer that tries criminal cases has spent their entire career trying to explain to a jury. Yeah, but reasonable doubt is in the hope that

12:22it lands. And you know, the problem is, is should there be a uniform definition like across the land? What I wonder if there is. Federally there is because it's the federal government. It acts as one entity. Doesn't work better. 50 different states. Yeah, we all have different definitions of it. Let me ask you, in your opinion, does it work? Do jurors have less confusion in a federal case where there is more clear definition across the board? I don't know what those that definition looks like. I don't know what those instructions look like. Maybe just as clear as this. But in your opinion, since it is more uniform across the board, does it make it easier for jurors to figure out what the fuck they're being asked to do? Now, because it's still such a it's still not it's still a no more of this concept. Yeah, you know what I mean? But it's like, well, it's not that a morpheus, it just it can't be this thing gives language that lets you find

13:22that the off ramps. How come they have that? Because I sat on a court martial when I still in the Marine Corps and it was beyond reasonable doubt and was an S abuse case by a corpsman and a female recruit. It was kind of a horrendous situation. And I wasn't given the instruction, and this many years ago, I remember very clearly because it was a really powerful experience of just this. I was all I was told was reasonable doubt. And it was on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this horrendous thing had happened. And they failed because I had doubt based on what they were saying and what the defense said. And they didn't none of the instruction had conviction, follow your conviction, anything like that. Because so why is that in there, Bob? Is every state have that? Because I don't know the law on this. I mean, it would be so much easier if they had beyond a reasonable doubt because. Because, Matt, more confusing. I think that, Matt, for from a defense attorney's perspective, I think I like Massachusetts reasonable doubt

14:22instruction because it uses the word moral certainty, which is a fucking high bar. It just is. Illinois does not have the language moral certainty. What's moral certainty? Actually, right. I mean, who can help with the better to source words wins? Well, morals are subjective word. Travel around the world and you're going to have a lot of different morals that you're encountering. Different religions have different morals. I mean, I mean, we just celebrated, celebrated. Remember 9-11, and the people that flew into the towers had a lot of different moral certainty than anyone else does on that day. So that's why when you throw in very subjective words, we talked about that three weeks ago. Where we're talking about war and people, our soldiers that are sent over and where we're told our entire lives that killing people is wrong. It's the ultimate sin. And then, you know, for some reason, when you're going to

15:23fight over land or oil, then it's okay. Then it's fine. You know, it's like, it is. It's a very murky, murky thing, man. So why not just reasonable doubt? But here's the thing. Yeah. That's why the words matter. That's why, you know, if we don't hear from him, I hope what happens. Because it's this thing needs a resolution. And while the trial itself is over, this case is far from it. Yeah. This case is nowhere near over. Let's talk about the big scuttle butt of the internet over the last handful of days with the holdout juror. There's been allegations flying of the miss. I don't know what exactly it is. Bob, explain to me what the hell is going on. There's some questions about this man's possible allegations of impertidies or crimes or allegations of crimes, not true convictions in the past. And was that

16:24revealed to the jury in Vaudier or to the attorneys in Vaudier? What exactly do we know about all of that noise that people are tweeting about with about one tenth of the actual story in their individual tweets? So in Massachusetts, like in most states, what they do before they send before they select a jury as they send out a jury questionnaire. And it's based on, you know, they pull up the list of potential jurors from, you know, the voting records and, you know, if you're a registered voter, you'll get, you know, if you're in the list, they'll send you out your first, your thing saying, hey, you're going to be a juror potentially. And you've got to show up to your notice. And then when in a case like this where they're going to have to draw a bigger pool because they know of the high publicity nature and again, we're always worried about objectivity and bias, right? So they create a bigger pool to choose from because of people having

17:32heard about the case and maybe having formed opinions on the case. So once they kind of like ear mark this number, X number of people that are going to potentially be on this jury as the jury pool, they then send out the jury questionnaires. Now, if they didn't like, when I was handling Garcia, that was how we did it out there in Nebraska. Like we knew that it was a high profile case. We knew everybody knew about the case. So we went ahead and the judge put together some questions that we wanted to ask specifically that would you wouldn't normally see on other jury questionnaires. And here, I don't know if that took place or if they're using just the standard juror questionnaire. Yeah. Okay. Now the standard juror questionnaire, we have a front of the show that comes on all the time. Judge Carol Erskine, she's retired. She's wonderful. And she was a mass judge. So she posted and sent me what the jury questionnaire was. Okay. That gets sent out and it gets filled out.

18:35It's like your basic bio shit. Sure. Yeah. You know, you're curious what your name, what do you do for work? Do you have kids? What's your marital status? You know, what is your educational level? All that kind of shit. And then in the part that is in question right now, is there is a portion because NBC are Boston 10 NBC or Boston NBC come out with this story and how they figured out who the juror was considering that the list is impounded. It's unknown at this point. But somehow they figure out who this juror is. And of course they go to the public records. Now the records themselves are public. There's nothing untoward about them going up the records of anybody. Because if you commit a crime in this country, short of it being exposed or sealed, it's right there for you. Everybody wants to go out and look, can see it. So going back to the questionnaire, there's a certain and it's I forget what they term it. It's like your experiences with the law. And so the questions

19:41are have you ever been arrested? You know what? Let me pull it up. I actually want to read it to you. So yeah, no, I mean, because that's that's fascinating. And I'm really curious, you know, what exactly the questions are we don't know exactly how it was filled out. Do we? I mean, we do not. We do not know how it was filled out. But they're in lies. The rub. Yeah. But when I kind of like kind of get through this thing and we talk a little bit about it, you know, the end of the end of the discussion right now is we don't know how we filled it out. Yeah. That that's where this thing is landing now. Let's talk about the questions. Because then I have questions about the questions and we'll play some scenarios out after that. Do you ever pulled up? Hold on, I'm trying to get in. And while you're doing that, I mean, I I filled out one like two years ago, a year ago, I was called and they didn't they just asked if I've ever been convicted. I don't think I was asked if I was ever accused of anything. And it was just on the honor system as I filled mine

20:45out and sent it in and we went back and forth. I mean, I love experience with the law. That's another fun experience. What's your experience? I was the law. Paw Patrol. That's my experience with the law. My daughter like watching Paw Patrol as a child. Does that count as experience with the law? In fact, I didn't get excuse either for being FBI. I was I was called. All right, hold on. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's just at the end of the day, the verbage words matter. We say it's so frequently here. Words matter. And when you're asking people to complete a task that's going to affect the lives of at least one person and probably far more based on what you're you're getting at, it might be a good idea to make sure that the verbage isn't a big pile of mud that that they're not going to get. But it's not just for the attorneys to understand. But at the same time, but at the same time isn't the spirit of law. And that's what another good question of Bob is looking up multitasking your Bob. As you know, as you're trying to call in a jury of your peers,

21:51you I mean, you're not looking for professional jurists. And so I mean, that's part of the this part of this process, isn't it? Just grabbing a sample of humanity that is around you. Well, yeah, obviously, you know, yeah. So I don't know if you guys want to post or if you just want me to read it. Just read it. Yeah. Okay. So it is that section is called your experience with the law. Okay. Have you or anyone in your household or family ever had any of the following experiences to law? And then there's a no or a yes. So start right there. Okay. What are the experiences? So here are the experiences. But it's important. So first you have to check yes or no. Okay. Yes. To be any of them, you got to hit yeah. Okay. And yeah, you got to hit you. You check the yes first. So been arrested is one. Ben sued is one. Ben served with a court order is one. Ben charged with a crime is one. File the lawsuit is one. Ben convicted of a crime.

22:55Ben a witness in a criminal or civil case sought a court order and parentheticals restraining order stay away order injunction, et cetera. Ben a crime victim or been seated on a jury. So that that is though accused is not on there. Well arrested. Well, okay. Arrest. Okay. Yeah. And there might be an arrest up in that. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. People on the internet. Okay. I just want to understand. Okay. So that's clear. So yeah. All right. If you get so what came out from Boston 10 and again, how they got the guy's name, I don't know. Sure. But it looks like they looked up this guy's record and he had a domestic violence charge where he was arrested and that's how DV works. Okay. You get arrested. It was ultimately dismissed. Not convicted arrested and arrested is on the list. Arrested is on the list and charged with the crime is on the list. Okay. Charge now convicted. Okay. Right. So that box. If following

23:58the letter of the law, he wouldn't have needed to check those boxes. Correct. And so on those. But what we do know is it was dismissed for whatever in the alleged victim was his wife. Okay. Not divorced after that happened. Yeah. So then that's all we know. Because the divorce occurs are there. So you know, I've been doing this for a long time in terms of, you know, you got messy divorces. I don't know if the divorce was coming prior to that or was that who knows. So let me ask you about when you when you're if I during the jury and we got to go on though, T. Oh, there's more. Okay. More. So the restraining order was in place. Okay. There was filed and it was sought and filed and entered by his nephew who was claiming that his uncle had thrown him on the ground and punched him in the face a bunch of times. Restraining order too. Okay. This is an addition to the wife. Yeah.

24:59Okay. There's more. Okay. But wait, there's more. Okay. So apparently the the kid was living with or was in the house at the time. I'm not clear on it. Yeah. But he's the one the kid who was, I think, 13 at the time of the domestic called and, you know, called 911. And so like what the kid alleges in his petition for the order of protection is that the uncle had said, you know, you know, you ruined my life for something. Yeah. I guess talking about way back one maybe. I don't know. And then you know, you had this come and do for a long time. That's what the kid wrote in the petition. Okay. Now that petition was granted. So at the time that he was deliberating, he acted, he had an act of restraining order against them. Okay. So that's so those are things which so that that been served with a court order. That's check. Okay. Now that doesn't necessarily

25:59disqualify someone from being a juror. It's just you have to disclose if any of these things have happened. Now let me ask you, when you're the attorney and you're bothering a jury, how often is it that people are checking yes? And you're going, yeah, I want that guy or gal on my jury and they checked yet. And how deep can you look into they check yes? Can you further question that juror and go tell me more about this incident or these all or why you checked yes on this box? What what happens there? You mean if they check yes on a box? Let's say he did check yes, because we don't know the answer to that question. Let's say he did check yes. And yes, I I have been arrested. And whoever boxes he needed to check, let's in theory say he checked them. What happens then with the attorneys? Let's do the exercise. So you're the proctor. Yep. Okay. It's vaudeer. Vaudeer is when we have the opportunity as lawyers. Okay. To be able to

27:05try to figure out who the hell these people. Yeah. That we don't know from a hole in the ground that are going to be sitting in judgment and another human being are. Yep. Okay. That's that's that's the baseline of why we expect people to be honest. We rely on people being honest on these forms. That's why it fucking matters. Like people just there's problem. I'm going to go back. I'm going to go back to that thing in a high profile case. How hard do you think it is to find people that have not formed an opinion on a case. And if so have not agree. I don't have a bias. Just sink in. And once you create once that by it and it's nothing that you're doing intentionally. No. It's a nature. Yeah. Girl. Shit. And go. Bob, where do they informed about the case? Because when I was getting ready and I was going through the process, I wasn't informed of what case I was sitting on. They were just kind of putting a pool of people together. One of these guys informed that what case they're sitting. So it depends. I can't speak to it in mass. I don't know if that's a situation where they told them had I like typically they'll give you the general kind of they'll

28:13give you the general idea in Illinois. They go ahead and before we start the process, they read exactly what the charges are. Okay. Well, they're not going in blind. If you're asking if they're going in blind, but when they're filling this form out, they have no idea. Yeah. The form is when you're blind. Right. Because when the form. Okay. So if they fact yes, then what? So, but this is the role playing. So you're 10 year of the prosecutor. Okay. Okay. And even though Lindsey Clancy was not charged with domestic violence charges. Sure. This is a case that obviously involves violence within the family. So it's like I see people getting kind of hung up. Well, this wasn't a DV case. It certainly was technically it wasn't because you wasn't charged with domestic battery. But when you have violence within the family, it falls under that large umbrella,

29:14right? Of domestic violence or violence within the family. So if you're the prosecutor, Tony, which you are in this this exercise, and you get your sheet and you see, okay, well, this person has been checked. He checked, been arrested, been served with an order. I'm going to pull and this is the other part we don't know. Did they did they do a quarry? Did they get a background check on all the jurors? We don't know that question. Sure. With things so. Yeah. I don't know. But they have they that's a lever they can pull. Absolutely. Okay. The lever they should pull. Yeah. Yes. I agree. I just so everyone understands what options are. And again, this has nothing to do with he was there was nothing that was stopping. Even if he checks all those, he is not seen as somebody who cannot be a juror. And Massachusetts, if you're a felon, you can't be a juror. Okay. That's the bar. Okay. Well, not checking that. Yeah. Okay. So that doesn't exist. So what you're

30:14concerned about as the prosecutor is you pull up the background and you see that he's got the D the DV, even though it's dismissed, the allegations were that he strangled his wife. So it's a pretty fucking serious. Yeah. Serious allegation. And then you've got this thing with enough you that's active at the time that he's sitting there going to be picked. So as the prosecutor, Tony, what what questions would you ask if you and I know I'm putting you on the spot. Yeah. If I'm on the perspective jury, you've got your jury sheet in front of your questionnaire. And you see that I've checked these yes. And you've gone and done the query. And you've what are you asking me in order to determine if if you think that I'm somebody who's a good fit for your case. Can you ask the details of who the alleged crimes were committed against or you're going to know that with the groney note. Okay. If you if you if you did the background check and you're pulling up

31:15the case on the docket, which is in there, you know, their state. They're well, they're I think I mean, number if you're going to get that far and start asking question, I you're going to get to, you know, can you be a unbiased? Can you look at this unbiased and then follow the letter of the law on this? Can you do that? I think it's a loaded question. I don't know that you're going to get an honest answer from someone who allegedly has a track record of that way. I probably be thinking a little bit deeper of what are they not answering? What are they not going to tell me? But I can tell by their alleged actions. And by someone with those alleged actions, where might they land? How deep of a thinker might they be on a case like this? Folks who engage in that sort of actions? Not usually the deepest of thought processors and might be a little more quick to go down the road of let's hang her. Then let's understand mental health awareness. Doesn't seem like a guy that might be super in tune with that level of thinking. That's what I would be thinking if I was

32:19a prosecutor. This guy, that this guy might be a good guy for me. My simple brains actually just going down the road of you got a lot going on, man. How much can you actually focus on this case and the evidence you're going to be presented because he's got a question on. Yeah. And apparently, you know, like they said that he was in the process of being victim. Sure. So they got it judgment against the end of the wall of the things going up. So, but Tony, you're just scratching the surface. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. And like you're jumping to conclusions, which is give me, tell me more. Yeah. Well, well, I want to probe into what you're doing. So welcome to the world of trying to select a juror. Yeah. Okay. All right. Because you can think that way or you can think, well, if I'm Ruddington, if I'm the defense attorney on that and he's answered everything because typically, for Ruddington, I won't want. If I was Ruddington, I would want to boot him. If he's checking, he's not, but I think in this situation, typically it's going to be the commonwealth if they see somebody that has that in their record, they're gone, launched. There's no fun. That's just

33:24as a general proposition. Yeah. It's different though. So in this particular situation, if I'm Ruddington and I get the sheet, I'm trying to delve into as much leeways the judge will give me. Do you, I see that you had this domestic battery, this domestic violence case that was dismissed. Do you hold any resentment against your wife based on that? Is that something that you're still carrying with you? Because again, I need to be delving into like, I'm not surface level on shit. Yeah. Then you're relying on that answer. You're doing a lot of reading. It's not just what, you know, he's being sad. What he's saying to you. It's, it's how is he saying it? So I'm assuming you're reading a lot of body language here too. All I care about is a defense attorney. Is, is this guy got an axe to grind with women? Yeah. In general, that's going to carry over into this trial based on the fact that again, all we know is that he's, he's got this DV that was

34:27dismissed. It was a pretty heavy duty allegation in terms of what he allegedly did to her. Was that a situation where she made some shit up in order to try to get him out of the house? I've seen it happen a million times. And you know, she goes in and gets charged or he gets charged and he's got a real axe to grind with, with, you know, this woman who lied on him. So you got, like, and then you've got this, this concept, if you're the defense attorney man, like if I'm worried that he's got this axe to grind against women in general, and then I'm looking at the factual scenario of my case, I'm probably launching him if I have the ability to do so because here's the other part of it because you can get rid of jurors, perspective jurors in two different ways. One for cause. Yeah. Okay. Bias is one of those causes. Now going back to the beginning of our conversation, wherein we were talking about this, this concept of, of, oh, well, you know,

35:31you can put that aside and, you know, like, that's how judges in this country rehabilitate somebody who claims that they have an opinion, they formed an opinion on the case. Yeah. Right. Is they, they have them step up to the bench. If I'm saying, you're on or I want him removed for cause, he says that he's formed an opinion in this case or that he, he's come in with a bias. Yeah. A bias. And from, from that perspective, you've got, you've got a judge who's going to be sitting on the bench. Sure. I understand that you have formed an opinion on this case. He says, yeah, you know, I read about it. And we see that you formed a strong opinion. Do you feel like you might have a problem applying the law here? And sometimes I've had jurors say, yeah, like, like, I do, which is what we want. I want them being honest. Every lawyer that tries cases, prosecution or defense wants them to be honest. Always because it's, it's not some kind of shade being casted on

36:32you. We can't have people that have already made a decision sitting on the jury period. Sure. It defies everything that we're in that courtroom to do. Like, that's what people, like this person's screaming about. Yes, if Kelly Farina, same thing goes for every juror, every single juror, this isn't just about that person. Yeah. We'll say except for Bob, you don't know me from a hole in the ground. I'm so I'm an attorney. He's been trying cases for two decades. All I care about are unbiased jurors. Period. I'm not on skies here. So, so what he may have answered correctly. He may have disclosed. So what if, because we don't know how they they they sign this or how they they check those boxes. What if they said no? What if they said no? I have not been charged with the crime. I've not been arrested. It's a plot. That isn't okay. So, so what kind of a problem is it though? I mean, what is it? We already have we have a, a, a hung jury here. So we get that's

37:36one thing. How again, tell me, I'm how big of a problem is what is it? We need it directly from the, from the page from the questionnaire jurors declaration. This goes for anybody. Yeah. Whether it's the loan juror, whether it's any of the other, anybody who answers incorrectly or lies, is this saying it applies to? Equally. Yeah. You understand that out there? Yeah. This is the declaration. I certify that the information I've supplied on this forum is true and complete to the best of my knowledge. I understand that a willful misrepresentation or omission of a material fact on this form is a crime. Okay, which may be punished by a fine of not more than $2,000 a bond conviction. So, so it's like, right bad. I mean, it actually cost us millions of dollars over here and all these people's lives, but you're always two j's. Right. You know, and I don't even know what it is. I don't know if it's a misdemeanor.

38:39So it means nothing. It deters nothing. Right. Yeah. So, if you have FBI warning before you watch a VHS tape. Yeah, exactly. It's essentially that. So, so, Bob, what do you think of video? So, here's another question for you, Bob. I know it's it's my new, but I'm really fascinated that with all that's going on in this guy's life, at least pure conjecture, you know, just from all the allegations and restraining orders and evictions, I would have thought, you know, being being around people that have tried like hell to get out of jury duty at all costs with coming up with every excuse in the world. I'm very surprised that he didn't use these reasons as an excuse to get out of these things. And again, if he had if he had used us as an excuse, if he presented us to the courts, I listen, I can't do this because I got this going on, I got this going on, this going on. If he did that, is it judge likely to dismiss?

39:41You mean for cause? Or just this because I mean, people are always trying to bump their day. I mean, I had a vacation coming up and they and I went to the courts and hey, I have plain tickets, booked and everything. Here's what's going on in my life. And they said, well, you're not excused. We'll switch dates with you. So if this guy had had, I mean, if he's going to pay, like I know what you're saying, it's like, remember, the baseline is any of the things that we talk about here with respect to any of these jurors, whether it's Lone juror Kelly Farina, where he went and dug up that she had a like a assault and battery from 2001. So 25 years ago, if she chucked it, neither one of those jurors is de-cute based on if they said yes, that's not an issue here. This isn't a question of disqualification. Right. The only question is, is were they truthful on their form? Does it sound like he had anything better to do? I mean, yes, all of us are like, I don't want to be in a jury. I have a life to lead in money to make. But I don't know that this guy had that. Well, I don't know. Like, I don't know. You're making

40:44a fit of money. I don't know. Today is a juror. So I don't know. There's a thousand. Yeah. I have no idea. But let me answer Robin's question. So Robin's question is those things in terms of, like, if you've got, because the judge typically will ask jurors if they've got an issue. Like, oh, I've got a surgery that is coming up in two weeks and it's heart surgery. I have to have this done. The judge is typically going to excuse that juror. Right. I've had judges where people have sat in the gallery, you know, his perspective jurors saying, we have a planned family vacation in all the airfares purchased. And we've we've gotten the reservation for the hotel. And I've had the judge and it dates a judge by judge thing. I've had the judge say, I'm sorry. That's just not enough. Right. So, you know, like, there's right. You know, it's one of those things where every judge is different. And I've had judges say, yeah, of course, you know, I'm going to excuse you. You know, you've got a trip planned and I'm not I'm not about to up, you know, uproot your life

41:47like that. So again, there's the two ways. So the cause thing. All right. Now, now you have that juror that comes in and says, yeah, I'm biased. Like, like, she killed her kids. Yeah. I don't care. Like, like, like, she's got to go in. So the judge will bring that person up and they'll say, all right, I heard you, you've you've said this thing that you've got this very strong conviction, you know, that she's killed her kids. There is no alternative for you in your mind other than she has to be punished for it. We don't have the death penalty here. So that would mean life without the possibility of parole and prison. And that's what your opinion is. If the guy says, yeah, that's what it is. And I appreciate that guy because that guy's being honest on the front end. And then the judge, but then this is what the judge will do. Say, okay, I understand that, but here's one I'm asking you, can you take that strongly held conviction and put it aside and listen to the facts and evidence and then apply the law? If that dude who's already said what he's

42:51said and was honest about it says, yeah, I think I can. The judge considers that juror to be rehabilitated. See, bullshit. I'm under fucking bullshit. Like, that's the problem right there. Yeah, insane. I hit insane. And so what happens is the other way that we can get rid of jurors is we all both sides get peremptory challenges. Yeah, that's right. I'm on a preemptory challenges. And it's a set number when you use all your challenges, you're screwed. If you get somebody on that like say that guy who's like, I don't give a shit, she's going in the judge rehabilitates them. And I'm out of challenges. I'm stuck with that guy on my jury because I don't have the ability to be able to get rid of them. So from that perspective, that's what we're dealing with in a situation like this. What we don't know about this situation, is whether or not he was truthful on the form, we have no idea. And I'm going to read the

43:51other one to read the very top of the form, which is interesting. It says, it's a confidential jury questionnaire. Okay. And it says you were acquired by law to complete and sign this form, which is not a public record and will be destroyed by the court as soon as practicable after you are excused. So can they go back and look at it even? I don't know. So how would they even implement the repercussions for lying if they've destroyed the, this is it's the, we don't know. It's insane. It's not designed to work. I am not pretending to know the answers. Oh my God. I know. I know. I know. Bob, have you ever seen this? You know, it's fine. We find the flaws in a system when a system severely breaks. And it looks like we're finding some holes in a system because we had some really unusual things, at least from my optics. So is this unusual? As is the first time you've seen something

44:52like this happen inside a jury? God know. So we know that's why it's not fixed. Because we don't, because we keep voting for the wrong people. How do we keep putting people in power not to change anything? Well, just to destroy the records part is what I've said. If you know, like, and again, I don't know if they have destroyed them, but just even saying it. That, you know, so like jurors came forth pretty quickly. Right. So, right. Like, I think that hopefully the forms are still live in like the people in the chat. I did bring up Kelly. Sorry. If you're, some of these questions have already been answered to go back and watch. So you have answered pretty much anything that's there. I'm not picking on anybody. What I'm trying to, I don't give a shit. I don't give a shit. I'm race colored creed religion. Sexual. I don't care about any of that. All I can talk about is are people lying on these forms? Yeah. And I don't care what jurors is. There's nothing about race being discussed here today.

45:54We're talking about actions taken by people. And here's what happened. If you're calling racist, guess what? You're the one who's racist because none of us are talking about that. All right. Let's go to another section now that the jury has been dismissed. The real battle in the Lindsey Clancy case is moving behind closed doors between a D. A. Tim Cruz and defense attorney Kevin Reddington. We're going to be breaking down the legal maneuvering happening right now behind the scenes. Bob Mottie is with us to help us to that along with Robin Drake retired FBI special agent. Bob, okay. We've talked about the issues with with the juror. And I'm sure that's probably maybe influencing something somewhat of what's going on behind the scenes here. Is it more or is this kind of like it's an issue? It's getting a lot of attention but at the end of the day in terms of pulling levers and mechanisms of benefiting Lindsey Clancy, which is Reddington's interest, doesn't really affect any of that or or not. I don't know behind the scenes what's happening with Reddington and Cruz at the moment. Who knows? From your best guess. They could be they could be having

46:58conversations. You know, if I'm Reddington, I'm going to them and I'm making this plea. I'm like, look, it was 11 to one like it or not. You know, like we know what the count is. And just so people understand, jurors are not supposed to do that. There is a reason that we are not supposed to as lawyers in the judge in that courtroom are supposed to know the count. Yeah. Because it creates this issue. If we were all sitting here and had no idea what the count was and we were just speculating and we had five jurors come out and they weren't saying what the count was but they said, well, you know, yeah, I was I was NG for lack of criminal responsibility and we heard from five of them, but we don't know what the other seven had done. Yeah. We'd be saying, well, it could have been six. That's the problem. Like the numbers never supposed to come out for this exact reason. So now if you're if you're crews and you know what the number was, you're looking at

48:00it in one of two ways. One, either we scrap entirely how we tried that case, which I think that they would need to do anyway. Yeah. And two, you have to be realistic because not only do you know the count, but you know what the temperature is out in the world. And this is a very divisive case. You have people on both sides of it and what he has in his community where it matters is the same thing. And if you're in it's the same shit we've been saying about I said from the get go, from the get go, yeah, they are never going to be able to do in panel of jury that'll get this thing done. Ever. Yeah. I don't know if they tried it on a million times. It's always going to come back as a mistrial because people are just dead sat on the way they feel about it. And there's no changing their minds sitting in a courtroom for six weeks. They don't give a shit. So there's you know what I mean. So so you have rooms. Let me finish it. God, if you're crews, you've got to be thinking about that part of it too. Yeah. Right? Like you have to like it. I mean it.

49:04Looked up his track record. He typically for his last 25 years, he does not come out with a statement right away. He usually waits before going for retrial. He's always going for the highest degree possible, trying to go for first degree if possible. And he will retry his that's his track record. Like everything we're seeing is not unusual from what he's done in the past. Just yeah. Well, I mean, if you're him, if he's smart, he's going to say, all right, I'm going to drop the the M1 and I'm going to go M2 on it because what that does is allows them and them being the defendant to go with a bench trial. Because they're not getting a mistrile. Yeah. They're you're getting a you're going to get a verdict with the least black eye option for the for crews at this point of trying to just just let's get this thing wrapped up because if we go to another trial again, it's going to be the same shit show all over again with a different cast of characters. Is that the the quiet let's exit stage left after the matinee is done option? Yeah, I think it's the path of least resistance. Yeah. You know,

50:10I like if you don't want to have a case that you're going to try spending the taxpayers' money over and over and over again in order to try to get this thing that again, I don't give a shit what people on the internet say. I really don't. What I care about is the victims that survived it, meaning the family of those beautiful little kids who were killed, they don't want this trial happening. Yeah. Do you like it? You just need to look and see what side they tried for. They lived with the woman. They understand what was happening in that house. A bunch of people screaming out in the streets. Oh, she can't you know, like there were refusing to look at anything about what was going on in that house to maybe stop it from happening again. I can't help you. You are you are blight on society. You're not helping us move forward. I'm sorry that you feel that way. And I understand it, but the reality is if we can stop it from happening again, why would that not be

51:13of interest to you? That's the only justice is not to let it happen again. It's, but I think and I completely agree. I'm going to start there. But I think there's a thinking with a lot of folks that there's nothing you're going to do to stop this from happening again. But again, and not saying that's right, it's the same group of folks who when you go, well, we should do these sort of things to prevent it basically put speed bumps in place because yes, you're never going to fully prevent people from doing horrible shit. But if you put some speed bumps in place, you might get the person going a little bit slower through the default that a func came art parking lot and running over the children with their skateboards. If the speed bumps are there, that slows people down a little bit. Let's put some of those in place. Not going to hurt anybody. You can still travel the same routes. You just got to be a little more careful. But that idea seems to escape a lot of people. It's just either all in or all out when life is all in the gray area. Life is all the speed bumps. But I think that alludes a lot of folks and I just don't know that

52:13you're going to get there with some and that's again, that's exactly why if we did this again, if we do this again, we're going to end up exactly where you said Bob with another hung jury because you just can't fix the thinking in some way. I have an answer to that. There is a way to stop it. The people that are just deniers of mental illness, I can't with them. I don't know if these are people that just have never experienced it. Also, the people that are just refusing to accept the fact that women are going through absolute upheaval in terms of their body and mind when they they're making a baby and after they give birth to a baby, I can't help them either. Yeah, it's a matter of I'm not sure I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It's what it is. But the answer is there is an answer. I have this woman. I don't know if I've talked about her on her show or names Lisa Tremaine. And she's got the only two centers in the entire country. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one in Jersey. Yeah, we'll talk about her. It's not it's not oh, yeah.

53:17Every if we had one of those centers in every city in the fucking country and women had the ability because here's what the thing is with this case. Here's what the thing is with this case. This case lives whether you want to hear it or not. This case lives with the fact that if people ask me did did she do something wrong aside from obviously killing the kids. Obviously, don't be an idiot. Obviously, that was the thing. But in terms of how she decided the decision she made when she was able to make cogent decisions was under reporting. Okay, not fully reporting to everybody that she saw exactly what was going on in her mind. And the reason that that exists is if you talk to women that live in this country and around the world as to why they under report, it's because once you fully report the government comes into your life, they will take your children, you will lose your license to practice medicine if you're a doctor, if you're a nurse, you know,

54:18the ramifications of full disclosure cannot be a pet an impediment to people being able to disclose. So what these centers do. What these centers do is the exact opposite. They will bring the women come in with their kids, their babies, their infants, so they're not separated from their children. And they are allowed to fully disclose without fear of any reprisal. They could fully disclose every thought that is coming into their mind. Dude, these places will save lives. I am like so dead. On that. Yeah, they will absolutely. And it's not a matter of insurance. They will take you in. This woman is incredible. Though shit, she's, she has, she is, I don't know how many lives she saved with the thousands of women she's treated, but it's an incredible thing. And they incorporate the family. Everything about these centers is, is right. It's the answer. It is the answer. Lisa, Tremaine, right? Lisa, Tremaine, I'll give you a contact. I do. I want to have her on the show

55:22and have a conversation. Amazing, amazing, amazing woman. I've been putting her to get her with that. People are reaching out to me saying, and I'm talking about RNs from across the country. You're like, we want one of these. We want one of these. And, and you know, it's like, yeah, and it sounds like she kind of has the formula of what's, what's working. That's wonderful. We'll have her on. And it should have been on your show over in defense, Tires. Yeah, she had that eight hour. Oh, yeah. We're in a s live and that's, that's where she was. Yeah. Okay. I've been, I've been seeing her in a praises ever since. Yeah. That would be, look, that the children being killed is like a nightmare. Like, like, I can't stand when people are saying that when we're trying to figure out why this happened, because the what of it happened, there's no question. There's not a question that she did it, except for, you know, that segment of society there are that, that thinks that Patrick might have done it. But I, I don't have time for that. But we know that this happened. And people trying to, to disc, like, just,

56:28disc how everything that happened leading up to this, to because they're mad about the act, are just so short-sighted that they're hurting our ability to be able to figure out why it happened and see what the fuck we can do to stop it from happening again. And that woman in her center, that I was just talking about, is the answer. I'm telling you, like, Nikki here saying that's a selfish excuse. No, it's not Nikki. No, it's not. Let's help Nikki. You never are in a position yourself, or you're a center or anyone. He's not a couch. Talk about it selfish. And I tried looking up the number of people she treats a year. It doesn't have it published, but it's roughly 4,000 square foot outpatient shop nurses, psychs, nurse practitioners, therapists, groups, mother, baby, all insurance, including Medicaid. Group, she has a scribe running. She takes in about 5 to 18 women at a time. That's wonderful. So your thoughts in the comment section on sub-stack in YouTube as we continue our conversation about the Lindsay Clancy case. Stepping away from the legal tactics, we have to look at the massive emotional tool of this

57:33mistrial with lives ruined and retrial, possibly hanging over Lindsay and Patrick Clancy's We have to ask what does continuing this trial actually help? Bob Mata is with us defense attorney host of defense diaries and Robin Drake retired FBI special agency for the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. Bob, there's obviously some consideration that DAs take into their charging decisions from the family, especially when the victims are the family members. And this is a case where the family is standing by the perpetrator of the crime. The people who have the most to lose, people who lost the most are standing by going, yes, this is horrible, but we understand how this happened. And this is not truly who this person is. So prosecuting put them away in jail, you're not going to have the thousands of victim impact statements from you let them burn if you

58:34have quite the opposite in this sort of case. Why is it in your estimation here that there is this vitriol in the state of Massachusetts and Cruz to push this the way that he did in round one. Was it a complete miscalculation of how this will end? Was there a political end to it for election in some way, shape, or form? I don't know the answer to that. In many cases, that tends to be a piece or is there something else entirely? I just to follow the letter of the law, she did this, we must prosecute this way. I know first degree you have to, but again, charging decisions, it could have been charged in a lesser and we wouldn't have to go this far. I mean, look at our chat. Yeah. Our chat is why because, you know, people that just, again, I always talk about it. And when I'm saying, when you're in a court of law and you're trying a case and we're always talking about that

59:36thing that is really, really hard to do, which is to take your emotion out of the equation when you're sitting there as a juror because you have to just look at the facts and apply the law because every single person, when you're looking at it from just a fundamentally human concept, are destroyed by the fact that these kids were killed by the person that was supposed to protect them over anybody else on the planter. So when you start there, some people can't leave there. And that's where, you know, crews is sitting there like, all right, I've got the torch pitch for a crew. They're part of my constituency, you know, and he might not be hearing the other side of it quite as loud at that point. You know what I'm saying? And like, so from the front end, you've got a mother who killed her three children. I'm going murder one because she killed her three

1:00:38children. Yeah. I find crime like this can't go unchecked. Like the flame throw me, you know, but the obligation of any prosecutor is to look deeper. You know, like that, that's the thing, and that's the thing that I've been fighting with prosecutors about for decades. Look deeper. Like everything's not always, there's nothing that happens in this world. And we've talked about this all three of us many, many times that is black and white. We live in the fucking grays, man. In every single case that that walks into those courtrooms lives in the grays. No, this is not, it's not the same as as Yates down in Texas. Yates was a different situation. I had no idea that that she was part of some kind of weird religious cult. You know, like, and she was definitely psychotic in a different way. Or people like she tried to kill herself like three times. She was every case is different. Yeah. You know, and at the end of the day, why he made the decision,

1:01:43I don't know, man. And I guess that's an interesting thing when we look at this with people and in the folks that that are not looking at this from an individual situation, I mean, it's just, it's just a fact. Every case is different. Every person is different. If they miss the class in school, every person is a different snowflake. We're all different. So you're going to have different elements to every case, but it seems so many just want to look at this from the same lens of everything and every person acts the same. You check this box through that type of person. Unfortunately, the ability to look beyond that does elude a lot of people. And that's not to say that if you think that that she should be in prison, that that you're wrong, you're entitled to your opinion without a doubt. But as long as you're able to look at the facts of the case and understand them and not just pretend they don't exist, that's where the problem lies here. Another piece of this, obviously, you have Patrick, you have Lindsay Patrick being exposed to

1:02:48so much bullshit in this entire case. Obviously, he's now in his attorney finally coming out and saying, guess what, we're coming for you. If you're going out there saying that he killed the kids, well, we're going to we're going to have some consequences for those actions. I've been saying since they started, I mean, I was shocked by people doing this. Like, yes, go after them, please. Where realistically do you think that goes Bob? We know that there's been cease and desist letters that have been sent out to people that were doing that sort of shit. They kind of had deer in the headlights when they got caught with them. I found those videos amusing. I loved watching the people like, but beyond let's scare a bunch of morons. Is there a lane where this goes further? And is there any sort of precedent to anything like this? It's not the first case where people go off the rails and come up with bizarre conspiracy theories that accuse people who are not accused of crimes. But usually it dies down because there's only

1:03:53so far down the road you can go. Where do you see this going? The trial itself? No, the Patrick Clancy. The accusations against him and his fighting back against them. Well, I stand with Patrick Clancy. Sure, but how but I guess like how what what road does he have to go down other than shut the fuck up guys and then lock it so people for defamation. That's what he does. But if there's no, but again, I mean, yes, I agree. But if there's nothing to sue to go after, it becomes far more of a headache in his life. And it just keeps stirring the pot for the idiots out there. Oh, God. I mean, there is no answer. Yeah. There are there are I mean, short of defamation suits. And if you know, like the first thing they teach you in your your towards class, you know, is you never sue somebody who doesn't have any money. Because there's no point, right? They're not going to feel it. You can't get a judgment. Yeah. You know, so if that's not a scenario wherein that's going to get people to to shut up about it, then you know, his life is inalterably been

1:04:58changed. Yeah, it's like it's like it's like awful. You know, it's a situation where I just don't know how people can sit here for, you know, with with a conscience for a guy who lost what he lost that day. It's your I can't understand the makeup aspect anyway. I just, you know, other than they don't connect him as being a human being. It's like people just looking at fucking screens and forgetting that these are all real human beings. You know, it's like I you sit in that courtroom and I took so much shit and I don't give a fuck when I was watching Lindsey Clancy just collapse emotionally when they're going through the autopsy's and I type that, you know, the tweet. I like I desperately want to give her a hug. It was like fucking care about people and I'm of the mindset and I don't give a shit with anybody else as I'm allowed to have my opinion. She was sick. Yeah, she was sick. She wasn't a monster. Yeah. Like nobody because every single witness that came

1:06:04for both sides, including the people that lost the children that were their children in their lives, Patrick, Sue Clancy, both of her parents all testified to how wonderful of a mother she was, how much she loved those children, how her life's dream was to be a mother. You can't have that exist in the world. And then all of a sudden one day she does this shit without there being serious, serious mental illness. And that's what they said. So Bob, how and I'm going back to Cruz again, because we were talking about the charging and first degree and how he's relentless on that. We're used to, I think we're used to, but maybe not. Don't you, I mean, his tone, deathness to the victim's family seems really quite unusual to me too on this or what, isn't it? I mean, to your point on Patrick's statements about everything was great till she got sick, everyone in her and everywhere she goes, it was the same, same thing. This is what makes this case so different than

1:07:07all these other cases where we see mentally broken nutters because she wasn't one until she got sick. How come Cruz is like so tone death to that when it came to the charging, everything's going on? I don't know, man. It makes no sense, doesn't it? I, you're asking, no, it doesn't make any sense. That, I mean, that's what I've been saying for the last two segments. I mean, how are you ignoring them, people that it affected most? I know. It's like, just like when you do victim impacts, statements, if she is convicted, it's like, I don't get it. I mean, there is no, I think some folks have an empathetic path in their brain in some don't. I just, I think that it's like, it's being frustrated. This is the only way I can figure this out is it's like being mad at a blind person for not being able to see or a deaf person for not being able to hear. We can do it for a long time, but at some point you kind of got to go, I don't think this person's capable of hearing or capable of seeing. And I think that's probably the answer with the way a lot of these brains work. It doesn't make people evil or bad,

1:08:13but it does make them less attuned to be able to absorb certain information and process it in a critical manner. And that's that. What I've learned with that, and this case is there's just certain people I can't talk to you about things that require critical thinking. And I think that might just be the answer. It's frustrating as hell. It can't be our approach to just say, fuck it. I'm giving up. Like I don't fucking know it. It's just you got to, you have to certain people. It's can't do it. And I understand that. But you know, if I have a crowd, like a crowd of a thousand certain people that can't do it. And I am able to break through with one single person. Then that's a good person. Yeah. And it's worth the effort. I'm going to have the high line. 99 say, fuck you dude. You're an idiot. I don't care. Like you were in say, like, I mean, tiny dancer here at 12.05 says, and she, and I'm not casting shade on you at all, tiny dancer, because this is a lot of women feel this way. And she said, it's your responsibility

1:09:17as an adult mother, all caps with adult mother to tell others that you don't feel safe being alone with the kids. Like I did. And I gave my meds time to work. Lindsay is full blame, or Lindsay is to blame full stop. That's you lady. Like, like, why? Like people that think that mental illness and these medications affect the same, like everybody the exact same way, or that every situation is the exact same way. Like, it's insane. It worked for me. It worked for you. Turn that frown upside down. That ain't the answer. Tiny dancer. I'm just telling you. I'm glad it worked for you, but it would also be helpful too if we actually had infrastructure in place when women actually do do that. And if you think about it too, like, like, remain center, it would be easy for all the women that went to remain center to say, well, look, I got to remain center. How come you didn't? I mean, so it's just it's a useless argument to say that because not every situation is the same. They're all different. Everything is different. Critical thinking. That's a prime example. Some are capable. Some are not.

1:10:18One last thing on this critical thingy thing, and this case is brought out something that shocked that live in Halloween once or twice in the FBI too. So, here I am in the FBI. Premier, supposedly, Premier investigative agency in the world. And I was working next to some amazing people, great investigators. And then all of a sudden, I don't know why or how came up. I think one of the cases it was revolved of reliance on some religious beliefs. And I'm saying next to someone who then told me, well, that can't be true because we've only been around about 5,000 years. And the dinosaurs were with us. I'm like, what? I was I was working next to some creationisms. And I was like, holy fuck. And I'm like, so this is same kind of things. Like, these are the same people that we didn't land on the moon, the earth is flat. And we've been around about 5,000 years. And we've roamed the earth with dinosaurs. And actually weren't dinosaurs. They're actually big fuzzy chickens. I mean, what? I just, you can't fix stupid. I think this every time we have

1:11:18cases like this or any like that sort of a story rope, everyone is shocked when we pull the curtain back. That's just like, really, this is what's going on back here. This is the people that are running should and making decisions. Yeah. Yeah. We live in a matrix and on most people are programs. I'm feeling that way more. That one actually has some legs. I kind of, you know, honest about it. You said that to me a few years ago. I mean, I know you just kind of ingest about it. No, but you said it to me. Okay, maybe it's changed over the years, but you said it to me a couple of years ago. And I thought, oh, that's no way. I'm coming a lot more around. Yeah. Look at this place, man. Look at this place. I mean, seriously, everyone's like, how come the aliens haven't come and landed? Are you shit me? Look at this place. Would you land here? This place is nuts. This place is just a zoo. We're not a TV for them though. I can guarantee that. All right. Your thoughts in the comments section on Substack and YouTube. We'd love for you to weigh in and give us your thoughts and your opinions. We'll continue our conversation right there.

1:12:22Be sure to check out Bob's channel, Defense Diaries on YouTube and wherever you get podcasts. And buried inside the John Wayne Gacy investigation. It is a multi-part series that goes so deep into this thing with exclusive tapes because Bob's dad was his attorney. So you get inside information that's never been out in the ether before. It is so fascinating to check that out. Robin Drake. Oh my goodness. My goodness. Masterclass. So somebody on here has already watched your masterclass twice, which is awesome. Tell everybody about your masterclass. Yeah. So masterclass, my class, masterclass, it's about learning how to become the person people trust and great communication skills and strategies for every aspect of life masterclass.com backslash Robin Drake. Check it out. Go and check it out. And like I said, press subscribe and we'll continue our conversation in the comments section. Until next time for Bob and Robin and Todd. I'm Tony Bruceke. We'll talk again real soon.

1:13:22Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Bruceke and the Hidden Killers podcast. This is Steve Kovino from Kovino and Rich. All right. Quick round of trivia before we get back into the show. But we're doing it differently this time. Every guy listening right now, you're contestant. No buzzers, no calling in. Just answer honestly to yourself. Here we go. You got a belly and a little chest that won't go away no matter what you try. Gast by the middle of the afternoon. No drive left in the tank. And lastly, you lack that confidence in mental edge. Fellowes, here's the thing. Those are classic signs that your testosterone has been sliding. And nothing drags it down faster than extra weight. The good news? Emerging research suggests that getting rid of it may actually be more effective than TRT. So why not take matters into your own hands? Strip off the weight that tanks your testosterone with Bioma GLP1 booster. Every serving is packed with science back and third party tested ingredients that crank up your natural GLP1 production. So you can enjoy a leaner physique, surging energy and

1:14:28increased drive. Visit bioma.health slash GLP1 and use code CR Show to get 15% off your first order. That's bioma.health slash GLP1 code CR Show for 15% off. This is Matt Rogers from Los Cultures. This is Matt Rogers from Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Cultures. This is Matt Rogers in Bowen Yang. You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like, okay, hold on. I got a new favorite food. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Cupid Mayon. Yeah, it's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it at the grocery store. And this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Cupid only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Eggs sandwiches, fries, burgers, chefs use it, restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Steve Cuvino from Cuvino and Rich. All right, quick round of trivia before we get back

1:15:32into the show. But we're doing it differently this time. Every guy listening right now, you're contestant. No buzzers, no calling in. Just answer honestly to yourself. Here we go. You got a belly and a little chest that won't go away no matter what you try. Gasped by the middle of the afternoon, no drive left in the tank. And lastly, you lack that confidence in mental edge. Fellows, here's the thing. Those are classic signs that your testosterone's been sliding. And nothing drags it down faster than extra weight. The good news, emerging research suggests that getting rid of it may actually be more effective than TRT. So why not take matters into your own hands? Strip off the weight that tanks your testosterone with Bioma GLP1 booster. Every serving is packed with science back and third party tested ingredients that crank up your natural GLP1 production. So you can enjoy a leaner physique, surging energy and increased drive. Visit bioma.health. Slash GLP1 and use code CR Show to get 15% off your first order. That's bioma.health. Slash GLP1.

1:16:33Code CR Show for 15% off. This is Matt Rodgers from Lost Culture East us with Matt Rodgers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture East of Matt Rodgers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like, okay, hold on. I got a new favorite food. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Cupid Mayon. Yeah, it's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it at the grocery store. And this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Cupid only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Eggs sandwiches, fries, burgers, chefs use it, restaurants use it, people who really care about flavor use it. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Steve Cuvino from Cuvino and Rich. All right, quick round of trivia before we get back into the show. But we're doing it differently this time. Every guy listening right now, you're contestant. No buzzers, no calling in. Just answer honestly to yourself. Here we go. You got a belly

1:17:36and a little chest that won't go away no matter what you try. Gast by the middle of the afternoon, no drive left in the tank. And lastly, you lack that confidence in mental edge. Fella's here's the thing. Those are classic signs that your testosterone's been sliding. And nothing drags it down faster than extra weight. The good news? Emerging research suggests that getting rid of it may actually be more effective than TRT. So why not take matters into your own hands? Strip off the weight that tanks your testosterone with Bioma GLP1 booster. Every serving is packed with science back and third party tested ingredients that crank up your natural GLP1 production. So you can enjoy a leaner physique, surging energy and increased drive. Visit bioma.health slash GLP1 and use code CR Show to get 15% off your first order. That's bioma.health slash GLP1 code CR Show for 15% off. This is Matt Rogers from Los Cultures. He says with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Cultures. He says Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try new food and suddenly it's like,

1:18:39wait, that's the reaction. A lot of people are having when they first try QB Mayo. It's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake because this Mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. QB only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers, some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it, restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Never try it. Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. QB, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Steve Kavino from Kavino and Rich. All right, quick round of trivia before we get back into the show. But we're doing it differently this time. Every guy listening right now, you're contestant. No buzzers, no calling in. Just answer honestly to yourself. Here we go.

1:19:44You got a belly and a little chest that won't go away no matter what you try. Gast by the middle of the afternoon, no drive left in the tank. And lastly, you lack that confidence in mental edge. Fellowes, here's the thing. Those are classic signs that your testosterone's been sliding. And nothing drags it down faster than extra weight. The good news, emerging research suggests that getting rid of it may actually be more effective than TRT. So why not take matters into your own hands? Strip off the weight that tanks your testosterone with Bioma GLP1 booster. Every serving is packed with science back and third party tested ingredients that crank up your natural GLP1 production. So you can enjoy a leaner physique, surging energy, and increased drive. Visit bioma.health slash GLP1 and use code CRShow to get 15% off your first order. That's bioma.health slash GLP1 code CRShow for 15% off. This is Matt Rogers from Los Cultures. He's dust with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Cultures. He's just Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

1:20:45You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like, okay, hold on. I got a new favorite food. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Cupid Mayon. Yeah, it's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it at the grocery store. And this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Cupid only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Eggs sandwiches, fries, burgers, chefs use it, restaurants use it, people who really care about flavor use it, put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Steve Kavino from Kavino and Rich. All right, quick round of trivia before we get back into the show. But we're doing it differently this time. Every guy listening right now, you're contestant. No buzzers, no calling in. Just answer honestly to yourself. Here we go. You got a belly and a little chest that won't go away no matter what you try. Gast by the middle of the afternoon, no drive left in the tank. And lastly,

1:21:46you lack that confidence in mental edge. Fellowes, here's the thing. Those are classic signs that your testosterone has been sliding. And nothing drags it down faster than extra weight. The good news? Emerging research suggests that getting rid of it may actually be more effective than TRT. So why not take matters into your own hands? Strip off the weight that tanks your testosterone with Bioma GLP1 booster. Every serving is packed with science back and third party tested ingredients that crank up your natural GLP1 production. So you can enjoy a leaner physique, surging energy and increased drive. Visit bioma.health slash GLP1 and use code CR Show to get 15% off your first order. That's bioma.health slash GLP1 code CR Show for 15% off. This is Matt Rodgers from Los Cultures. That's with Matt Rodgers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Cultures. There's Matt Rodgers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like, okay, hold on. I got a new favorite food. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when

1:22:47they first try Cupid Mayon. Yeah, it's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it at the grocery store. And this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Cupid only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Eggs sandwiches, fries, burgers, chefs use it, restaurants use it, people who really care about flavor use it, put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Steve Covino from Covino and Rich. All right, quick round of trivia before we get back into the show, but we're doing it differently this time. Every guy listening right now, you're contestant. No buzzers, no calling in. Just answer honestly to yourself. Here we go. You got a belly and a little chest that won't go away no matter what you try. Gasped by the middle of the afternoon, no drive left in the tank. And lastly, you lacked that confidence in mental edge. Fellows, here's the thing. Those are classic signs that your testosterone has been sliding. And nothing drags it down faster than extra weight. The good news? Emerging research suggests that

1:23:52getting rid of it may actually be more effective than TRT. So why not take matters into your own hands? Strip off the weight that tanks your testosterone with Bioma GLP1 booster. Every serving is packed with science back and third party tested ingredients that crank up your natural GLP1 production. So you can enjoy a leaner physique, surging energy and increased drive. Visit bioma.health slash GLP1 and use code CR Show to get 15% off your first order. That's bioma.health slash GLP1 code CR Show for 15% off. This is Matt Rogers from Los Culturistas with Matt Rodgers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas with Matt Rodgers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try on new food and suddenly it's like, wait. That's the reaction. A lot people are having when they first try QB Mayo. It's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake because this mayo is different. Most

1:24:53mayonnaise uses whole eggs. QB only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers, some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it, restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Never try it. Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're out of the store. Put it on just about anything then you'll understand. QB, the original Japanese mayonnaise. Do you know the difference between a HELOC and an HEI? Um, spelling? Well, they are spelled differently, but no. While both are ways to access your home's equity, they're very different. You see, a HELOC comes with monthly payments. Boo! While a splotero HEI doesn't, it's essentially a smarter way to access your home's value. You get cash up front, and then you can repurchase your option when you cash settle, refinance, or sell. Hurray! Are you

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