What next for Man City? What next for Ronaldo?

0:00Are you the kind of sports fan that wants to dig into the story behind the stats? Then join us daily on the Athletic Live, where we'll be live on YouTube to cover all the sports stories you can't stop talking about. On Game Days, we watch the biggest matchups, live alongside the of Legs most tapped-in reporters. We're coming hang on an off-night for an inside look at how headlines happen. We want you dropping questions in the chat, and we'll bring answers straight from the source. The Athletic Live is presented by Google Gemini. Subscribe now on YouTube. This message is brought to you by Colaguard. If you recorded songs off the radio for a mixtape, it might be time to scream for Colin Cancer. The Colaguard Test is non-invasive, requires no special prep or time off, and you start screening right from your home. It's just three simple steps. Set up, sample, and ship. If you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your doctor about the Colaguard Test, available by prescription only. Learn more or request a prescription at colaguard.com slash podcast.

1:00Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie, and one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, so you make it a home. Because with every fix, update, and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. From plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades, so leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust, find a pro for your project at Angie.com. We built this city on shamcom tracks and artificially inflated deals. Panty. It's just another Thursday on a tarot street. We got another totally football show for you. Today, we get more from the man's city mess, the club who put the sham into sham pain football. And now, quite possibly the pain too. Plus, nation's league, yeah?

2:02England v Croatia, just like at the World Cup. France versus Italy, not so much. And lots more in this totally football show. Thursday, the first of October, we have winners in the studio. Liam to me. Hi, Liam, pleasure to be back. Pleasure to have you back. Tom Williams. Hello, James. Yes, nice to meet you. Pleasure for us and that. Tim Spiers also with us. What's up, hi, James. What's up, sir? Oh, throwback. That's up your dog. I raised through those introductions because we also adjoined briefly by Matt Slater, who is possibly the busiest person in the entire athletic organization on account of, well, I think you know the reason this extended international break has become very much an extended sham city scandal break featuring nation's league football. Matt's been all over it very graciously. There's joined us to talk through some of the latest developments. Good morning to you, Matt. That's very nice intro. Good morning. Since our last show, I think the big thing has been Tuesday when the Premier League published

3:03their extended verdict or their reasons for the verdict from the independent panel, which revealed that the club are alleged are alleged to have falsified their income by more than 900 million pounds. Whoops. The amount shouldn't make a difference, but I think it probably does. I don't think what also was extraordinary about Tuesday was the language that the Premier League used when talking about one of its biggest clubs. Yeah, there's an awful lot to go at, wasn't it? I mean, yes, if we go on the Premier League statement, yes, Richard Masters said, what the hell did he put it, that it was a systematic attempt to breach rules for the best part of a decade? And then we had the independent commissions ruling itself, which I've read a few times. I think it says sham seven or eight times, and it's a great word, isn't it, sham? It's just slightly amusing word, but it is actually quite a legal term to be fair.

4:03I mean, it is a very specific, it's saying, you know, this contract is artificial. So they won't just doing it to be funny. And these rulings are often quite dry. This is only the executive summary, by the way. This is just 40 pages worth. They've already told us that the evidence bundle at the hearing had an index that ran, I think was it to 750 pages, the verbatim transcripts from the witnesses were 7,000 pages. So I think they've done it as a small mercy here with just the executive summary. But within there, I think what came across to me was some anger, some annoyance, on the part of the panel that they had been lied to. Arbitration panels don't normally say that. This is not high court, this is not run poll of the Bailey. This is supposed to be people coming to a private hearing. Yes, you argue your side really, really as hard as you can. And there's no doubt that the man's city had been doing that for a long time now.

5:05And the Premier League in turn as well. But for panels to say, some of the people that spoke to us, we don't think they told the truth. Are they lied? Is quite unusual. I've read dozens of these. And I don't remember that. I remember coded language around. Where are we sort of disagree with what they had to say? Memories differ or interpretations differ. No, the panel said we were lied to. The club protests their innocence. One of their biggest sponsors has today made noises about possible legal action. And asked why they weren't called to give evidence. They are appealing. Short of them being found innocent in that process though. I'm not the point where I think is there any way that man's city can continue in the Premier League with this ownership? They've been accused of lying by the league. They've been accused of sham contract sham agreements,

6:05artificially inflating misstated accounts, concealment, things clearly intended to circumvent the Premier League rules. Multiple breaches of duties of cooperation and utmost good faith. Is there any way that the league can just hand a point, penalty and go, yeah, but you can continue. You did all this for 10 years, but on you go. I think it's really interesting that you've gone there. You've gone to forced divestment. So that is, can this ownership group carry on? I think that's really interesting that you've gone, I'm thinking the same. And I'm wondering, and I am hearing that as well from the industry. So views on this have kind of ebbed and flowed over the years. And it has been years. It wasn't that long ago. I genuinely thought the consensus in the Premier League room was, where's this going? This is so expensive. And this is becoming a bit embarrassing. Every season we start and we ask, you know, Jernos ask, when are we going to get a hearing and Paul Richermasters can't say, I don't know. I'm frustrated too. And, oh look, we've just handed them the trophy. And they're the favourites again.

7:05And as Man City have got bigger, and they have got bigger, and they are now, you know, they are not the sort of upstarts. They're not the disruptors. They are part of the establishment. I have thought at times that the mood was, let's just put this behind us. This isn't good for the league. Can we agree something? And of course, Man City didn't want to agree by the way. So there was always a flaw in that argument. But I definitely thought the mood was, can we move on? And a lot of people have moved on as well. So the individual has moved on. The people most angry. The execs around the table. Personality has changed. What I think the last week has changed is the Angus Come flooding back. Because the language of the ruling, the extent of the cheating is worse. It was at the end of the scale. Is it the Dispeakal stuff? Is it Mancini's contract? Is it a bit of that Yaya Tauri image right stuff? No. It's bigger. It's bigger than all that.

8:06And I do sense people are thinking, well, it is a relegation. That's our minimum now. They have to be relegated. But then I am thinking, is that enough? And I know other people are thinking, is it enough? Do you do multi-year discounted distinctions? That's quite interesting. Does that keep them down for more than a season? Does everyone's assuming they bounce straight back? Everyone's looking at the range as example. The Sarasans example from rugby. They're looking at UV. They're thinking, what is fair here? We don't want to strip titles apparently. There was a peer to work in Olympic sport for me. So there's a lot of debate about what is fair. But I'm sort of with you. Unless they can overturn this. On appeal, which I think is unlikely, but is a possibility. So we have to acknowledge that. Then how do they continue? How do they continue around the room? Because the cheating is so egregious. And as ever, it's the cover-up that is the problem. And I think if this was North American sport, if this was the NFL or the NBA, which are run-light private clubs, like country clubs, by the way, they would be black-bold.

9:13The other lot would say, I'm sorry, that lot, they have to sell. And we've seen this half a dozen times over the last 10-15 years, when there's been bad behavior. It's often bullying or racism or something really, really bad. But an owner has been forced to sell. Now, the funny thing is, what's just happened? We now have an independent football regulator that can do that. So previously, that wasn't in the arsenal of sanctions. The NFL can do it. The NFL tried to do it, for example, at Reading with Die Young. You know, an absolutely calamitous owner. But they couldn't do it. And there have been lots of cases where, particularly in the NFL, where clubs have been so poorly run. Fans groups, politicians, journals have said, come on. You know, just take the club from them. And they've been prevented from doing so by UK company law. That's changed. The independent football regulator has the powers to force divestment. Is that where we are? I then go, so I could go on and on fear because Andy Burman, the prime minister of the country, has made it pretty clear he doesn't think that's a good idea.

10:16One of the really puzzling element of this is the fact that Man City, who the story is, were actually let known about the verdict or the likelihood of the content of the verdict back in the summer. And then proceeded to spath something like half a billion on new players and continue to maintain their innocence. Why is it that they are taking this bullish stance? Why is it that they haven't cut a deal, Matt? Is there any chance that they do have irrefutable evidence of their comprehensive body of irrefutable evidence? Yeah, well, that's been their stance from the beginning, you know, going back to the dispute all leaks in late 2018. The court of arbitration has a support in their dispute with UEFA and they won there. I know people say, well, did they win? They still got fined for non-corporation. Man City treated it like a win. They were facing a two-year ban from European competition and they walked out of cash, celebrating, I can assure you. So it felt like a win to them and it felt like a defeat to UEFA. Certainly many people at UEFA who thought they didn't fight a very good case at cash.

11:20So anyway, irrefutable evidence. I think what we're coming to here is, and they've been pairing the way for this for a while. This is the element of face saving here. There's an element of national pride that the irrefutable evidence is basically government officials, very important people in the UAE, saying this didn't happen. And in the UAE, that would be enough. It would be enough for when a journalist, when a lawyer, when a rival says, hold on a minute, what's going on here? I think you've done something wrong. No, he didn't. That's our irrefutable evidence. And I suppose they'll say, no, it's not just that. We went to cash and UEFA said, well, look at these emails. How else would anybody read these emails? This, you know, a neutral, someone on the clap of Mommly Bus would say, well, isn't this a great big scam here? How else could I interpret these emails between, you know, functionary back in Man City going, how an earth do I count for this? Who do I invoice, by the way? This money's coming in. What do I do?

12:26I'm asking you a senior for, you know, asking the superior for advice here. They're saying, we give it, didn't happen that way. Or, and this is interesting, that there has been a little subtle change at cash. They were very clear. There's been no public money. There's been no public money. That thing that you think happened in the emails didn't happen. That money that came through Etihad, for example, it's the biggest case, only came from Etihad. And they got the chief executive of Etihad to say, yeah, it was our money. We loved it. Amazing sponsorship. We really asked for Man City, St. Pataco forever. We both benefited from this deal. And cash went, yeah, okay, that sounds pretty good. They're now saying, subtly saying, well, no, you've, you've all misinterpreted what we were doing in Abu Dhabi. Yes, the government gives Abu Dhabi companies money for sponsorship purposes, because it is a sort of common enterprise. We want Abu Dhabi companies, be they, be they the mobile phone company, our investment company, our property company, our tourism company, our airline, to sponsor and to grow their businesses.

13:28And it is that money that has flowed back into Man City via Etihad, for example. So they're saying, you know, what's the problem here? It is those companies money. All right, yes, it's come from the government. But it's, it's their money to choose where they, where they want to spend it. You know, what, what sandwich boards they want to put their name on. That is not what they said at cash. So they're contradicting themselves. So I do feel there's a story that they're kind of looking for, I think, to save face. And the irrefutable evidence, I think is very much for domestic audiences. I think it's very much for also governmental relations. And I suspect that they're going to go, the ship will go down with them saying, for ever and ever, we had irrefutable evidence. It's this card that we, that we, and the fans are saying, well, well, yeah, they're going to play it eventually. They've played it guys. They've been playing it for four, four, five years. The panel saw the card and went, we don't believe you. That's where we're at.

14:30Yeah. As you say, for Ansariander, for example, saying the decision was based on a Premier League conspiracy theory, which, you know, we shall see the appeal will happen. Matt, I know you've got to get off. No doubt there'll be further installments. Thank you very much, though, for bringing us that insight today. You're welcome. Max later. Wow. This story's really moved on since we first, I kind of pine for the days of the 115 banter. Now it just seems almost apocalyptic, the prospects for, well, club, but also, I mean, the damage to the league. Is there any fair way of sorting all this out, Liam? Well, they could take the appeal to the club and mom the bus. Yeah, just learned that. That would be quite an interesting turn for the story. I've been thinking about, as I think we all have potential punishments in this case, if the verdict stands, that's sort of the inevitable caveat. And yes, there has to be an unprecedented sporting sanction to match the scale of the offending. But I think what you went through with Matt is right that the meat of the punishment has to be focused on ownership executive level.

15:44And that might practically be the hardest thing to do. But these were ownership executive level infractions and I come back to the fact that the Premier League. Ultimately, okay, it's not quite the NBA NFL private members club, but it is a collective enterprise. As much as these clubs are rivals and there are grievances and alliances and cliques, they are ultimately commercial partners in this big money making, phenomenally successful, global product. And what Abu Dhabi United group are alleged to have done here or have been proven to have done here by an independent panel is lied to the rest of the league and lied to the league itself, the regulatory body. So I don't see practically or ethically how the other clubs could look at them as reliable partners going forward, even if they relegate for a season, they'll be back, you'd have to deal with them again.

16:45Will they work within any collective framework or submit to any kind of regulation? There's no sign of that in their stance right now. I mean, loads of people have gotten in touch. Go away, boys, as they accelerated the club through financial doping so they should be decelerated as a club by deducting 20 points a year for the next five years. Another suggestion was let the glazers buy them. That's good. Don't hate her. Todd Bowley is available. I think Lea must really point about how it needs to be sort of centered on the owners of the punishment. But I don't know. Then you hear what the Prime Minister says yesterday and it's obviously really important what he says and thinks. But he was very much, I'd be very concerned if the owners have to leave here. You know, he then went on to thank them for what they've done for Manchester and with the stadium and the training campus and whatnot. And then he went on to make this comparison with Everton, which is, I don't know if you've heard, he is an Everton fan. And kind of said, you know, people shouldn't rush people rush to judgment about Everton and said they were guilty and we shouldn't do the same here.

17:50He literally said it's frustrating when people rush to judgment. And this judgment has taken eight years. Eight years. You know, it's ludicrous when you think about it. And it is concerning when the most powerful person in the United is saying that, you know, so soon afterwards. And then, you know, a quick sort of Google on this reveals that in May, the UK agreed a 3.7 billion trade deal with six golf sex, including the UAE. So there's obviously, you know, make of that what you will. I'll find that quite concerning. Kind of feel like Andy Burnham said what you said more with his former mayor of Manchester hat on than with his PN hat on. But yeah, as you say, I mean, it's, this isn't a judgment that has been rushed. It's been the least rush judgment in the history of English football. Yeah, and obviously what he says matters, you know, you look at the last owner, so the Premier League and sort of a criminal circumstances, you're on the brand, which that was what under influence from the UK government that he was forced to sell up.

18:51So is this is this going to be the opposite if Burnham's in favor of 60s owners and wants to stay in invest? You know what I mean? Is that going to leave to a completely opposite judgment to what we got from in a brand which is case? Well, the other bigger aspect to this that exists outside of football is if it came down to a vote of the other clubs about whether to say expel Manchester City from the league or any kind of vote on the ownership. How many of these owners want to preserve relations with Abu Dhabi and don't want to burn those particular bridges? You know, there are so many considerations here beyond the key football matter and the key regulatory matter. And this is, yeah, these are all kind of inevitable ripple effects of allowing a kind of arms length state arrangement. Well, in a football club. Well, these were always the concerns as well, particularly the relations with Abu Dhabi and the economic fallout of a fraction between, say, English interests and the interests of that, that nation.

19:53But what we do know is that for now the Premier League has pressed ahead with this has published an extraordinarily strong condemnation of the club. And now we wait to see what happens with the appeal which apparently is going to run concurrently with the deliberations over the penalties. Lots of people also writing in about that whether the titles that if they are revoked should be assigned somewhere else. Donald Pilling with things, the Liberal fans says cities have cheesed of that long will benefit a lot for longer. They rob me of the three best days of my life. I want my titles, the players deserve those titles. It's a trigger one, Tom. Yeah, I mean, it's been interesting to see the reaction of some of the players and managers who would theoretically stand to benefit if city had titles stripped from them and awarded to other clubs. It's been a bit of playful banter from people like Rio Ferdinand saying, I want the title that I lost out on in 2012.

20:53Most of them though, I mean Wayne Rooney said this. I think, you know, professional athletes, if you're going to have a trophy in your cabinet, you want to have won it. You want to have got the points in the bag that you needed to get over the line and had that moment, that feeling of we have gone out and earned this and won this on the pitch. But if you don't have that, do you not want second best? The thing is, I mean, no one will look at those as, I mean, city didn't legitimately win those titles. We know that now, but did the teams that finish second legitimately win them? I mean, no, they didn't have any accusations to give. So, no, no, there isn't. But I suspect, I think the fair, if it does end up with titles being stripped, which I think, you know, and again, depending on what happens with city's appeal, I think that would be the, you know, a fair outcome. The fairest thing to do might be just, you just leave those titles unattributed, which is unsatisfying. But retrospectively, you know, confer league titles on teams, you know, over 10 years after the seasons concluded, would feel a bit unsatisfying.

22:02Yeah, I mean, I agree, but then I'm not supporting a team that missed out by a point twice to man city. He said to themselves rightful champions now anyway, like, I mean, they don't have, they don't have the, it's not written on their honors board, but they will, they will consider that they were cheated out of the title. But perhaps, perhaps as important, or maybe even more so than who ends up winning the, with the title in their pal Marys is teams that lost points and ended up going down, for example, or missed out on Europe, for example, and I've suffered enormously economic repercussions. This is the whole thing. It's like someone's baked to cake with stolen eggs, and now how do you get, give those eggs back? And we've all been eating the cake to him. I was just thinking that as well. But that's why it's, that's why it's got to, it's got to happen ASAP. And of course, it won't, but the punishments need to be meted ASAP, because whoever goes down in 18th this season, you know, they can immediately say, well, city shouldn't be in this league in what they've done. So we'll sue you for X amount of money that, because we've been relegated to the challenge yet, isn't that money.

23:09I mean, yeah, I think in terms of awarding trophies to others, I don't know about that, but I think that they ultimately should be stripped of what they've won. What doesn't sit right with me is that, you know, they're, they're currently the fourth most successful English club of all time in terms of titles one. And if you take away the titles in this period, they're joint 14th with the likes of Huddersfield and Derby, which just shows you, you know, where they came from and what they've done has elevated them to this level, which we'll know now to be false. Can you imagine the kind of reception they're going to get from opposition fans, what the rest of the season, where the, and the field is their first game, which is going to be an absolute bear pit. And they are now a pariah club and they will be, I mean, you know, up and until whichever sanctions are decided upon are announced, they will be a pariah club, they will be accused of being cheats. And it's not something I think the English game will have ever witnessed before and even beyond that, that will remain a stain on the name of the club, unless they somehow managed to overturn the verdicts.

24:17But for as long as much as the city exists as a sporting institution, I mean, it's just, it's something you've changed your ownership. Wipes the slate. I mean, I think, I mean, and looking at the response from city, you know, and as we record, we're expecting that an appeal is going to go in before the deadline tomorrow. I think we've all seen that. That's the curious video statement from Ferran Sorryano. They are still sticking to that message of, no, this is all a complete conspiracy and a misguide of justice and we're going to prove our instance. And they've really decided to go as far as they can with that. But I think the only way that city can, you know, earn forgiveness is probably either for just mere culpers and apologies across the board. Hold our hands up. Yeah, we did it. This is how we did it. We're going to cooperate. We're going to take our punishment. But that would, I mean, that will take years. If not, if we did it, here's how though. Yeah. But on that, on that, on the whole irrefutable evidence thing, they've given all their evidence over the course of eight years. What's this like swagger bag of other.

25:23Do you remember to bring the irrefutable? I knew we forgot something. We'll bring it in the appeal. Yeah. Well, they're not actually allowed to present new evidence in the appeal are they without the permission of the Premier League? I believe that's the way the appeal process works. So if you haven't put your best foot forward, it might be a bit late for that now. I think one other aspect of this as well, which I think is an underrated part of the challenge that city face from here on out is making sure that they don't lose their own fans and their own players and staff in terms of having them turn against them. Because I think we're already seeing increasing amounts of anger and questioning from Manchester City fans, fat city fans who were previously inclined understandably to give the ownership that delivered this golden age, the benefit of the doubt has now a lot of those people have now been forced to reassess by just how. In fact, it's this verdict has been and you know, players are going to talk about it. They're going to question it. What is ends a more sqa thinking right is walked into players who potentially signed or had contracted sentience since apparently the club knew the verdict was incoming and as you say people are better figure row wrote in say I think titles should be stripped points deduction offer delegation and I'm a city fan holding it off just drags the shame further.

26:44I also wonder about we heard about Eddie had making noises about taking action from a defending city point of view, but the players sponsors they're going to be tarnished by this sponsors of players what what view are they going to take of having their players become part of a pariah pariah club. I don't know real Pandora's box. There's been open to things so I've been tarnished. I was fascinated by Pep Guardiardo's statement, you know, which felt I was surprised you said anything. You just need to say anything. It's not like he's a manager at another club that's going to be asked to press conference next week about the perfect time. Yeah, where's he saying anything exactly, but it's a come out so strongly in favor. You know, this is my club will get through this that that kind of stuff. You know, this is going to obviously implicate him even further in this further down the line is nothing specifically on him yet. But you know, he's really doubling down on the social. So with them even more and Tom's comments about anger off my fascinating because we've been so numb to city over years through all less success and sort of apathetic to them.

27:45And yeah, they're up there on this pedestal. You know, that hasn't been anger towards them, but there obviously will be no. Indeed, all right. Well, we'll see what Friday brings them. We're back on Saturday after the England Croatia game. So that will squeeze in a bit of an update there. But for now, let's park. The man city mess and we want to nation's league. Are you the kind of sports fan that wants to dig into the story behind the stats? Join us daily on the athletic live where we'll be live on YouTube to cover all the sports stories you can't stop talking about. On game days, we watch the biggest matchups live alongside the of legs most tap in reporters. We're come hang on an off night or an inside look at how headlines happen. We want you dropping questions in the chat and we'll bring answers straight from the source. The athletic live is presented by Google Gemini. Subscribe now on YouTube. Hi, Brook to Vard host of naked beauty. Picture this. You walk in from the cold in every room already feels like fall.

28:50That's what whole home setting means at pure one system working quietly in the background. So your home always feels like the season and like you learn more at pure.com. Hi, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast food with Mark Bittman and the website the Bittman project. One of the things that makes Whole Foods market different is their commitment to quality standards. More than 500 ingredients are banned store wide to give us peace of mind whether we're browsing through the store or shopping online. And it's been this way since 1980. Their selectivity makes your shopping easier. Shop Whole Foods Market in store or online. Thank you. Hey, we did a totally extra all about Cessk Fabregas. Cess Fabregas, Austin Legend, Chelsea Legend. You were part of that limb. I was very much enjoyed the conversation. It was a good excuse as we mentioned to go back and watch all of Fabregas' Premier League assists.

29:53How many other? 111. 133 minutes it was. Excellent. Anyway, you can enjoy the fruits of Liam's diligence in that totally extra which is out now. Loads of other top totally extra is also available, including one on Zinnia Dinsy Dan. Yes, that was you Tom. Yeah. Yeah, I also have a very enjoyable conversation. Yeah. I'm over, you know. I'm over. How would it not be? Anyway, Oh, I met all the man city stuff this week. We can reveal that England played in the nation's league. This was on Tuesday night against Czechia. And they won two now, same two scorers that she's from the Spain game. Tell me you're looking at me like you want to tell us about Czechia England. Yes. It was a strange game. It was shaping up to be a really good sort of proper match. You know, Czech Republic under their new Czechia, Czech Republic. I'm so confused. You know, the Athletic State Czech Republic, that's our title. Is that right?

30:53Yeah, I think so. That's right, isn't it? Liam hasn't written about Czech Republic recently. No. I do not have an answer for you. Okay. Anyway, those guys, they sort of, you know, always from Prague. They had a really sort of positive attitude. It was shaping up to be a really good match, but the Red Card sort of changed everything. They should have scored early on in the World War Rope, making defensive errors at the back. And then the Red Card actually sort of made it into a bit of a World Cup group stage, you know, game where it's probably beneficial to England in the long run in terms of breaking down a very deep line. Defense. And there were some interesting, you know, themes to emerge from it. Trent Alexander Arnold was sort of maybe one of the standouts with his assists, his first start for England in two years. But I don't know. I don't think we learned a huge amount about Trent Alexander Arnold playing as a Czech Republic, you know, and bending over a beautiful cross at like almost like a 90 degree angle. It was amazing. But it is fascinating to me that he's been overlooked for so long on football ability. You know, when you look at like some of the players that Tugel took to the World Cup, he took Dan Bernfer, his head and ability, you know, in the last 10 minutes again.

31:57He took Ivan Tony to the World Cup to take penalties. So to leave this guy at home, Trent Alexander Arnold, you know, the best, the most exquisite passer of a ball that England have got. Just, yeah, I still can't really compute that. And the same for a few other players, you know, Lewis Hall had a great game and you're like, where was this guy at the World Cup when England just sort of needed a regular orthodox left back? So yeah, I feel like Tugel sort of learning from some of the mistakes that he's made. And England look okay at the moment. Yeah, it's okay. How happy should England fans be about where they are based on this performance? I mean, how much is nation's league going to move the needle in the mood of England fans really? I think there's still, largely determined by the World Cup, the way it all ended, particularly the way Tugel didn't exactly cover himself in glory in the final 20 minutes of that Argentina game. So these results, the results like that can be a bit of a palette cleanser, I guess.

33:01But we're in a unique rhythm with international football where the key judgments are every two years, aren't they? And we're kind of two years away from seeing Tugel being definitively judged again. Okay. I have to say Gordon was, until he was great again. Right. And he's really sort of coming to the fore. It's hard to believe that he was actually dropped during the World Cup and he's now sort of become, you know, one of their sort of must picks. He looks different. He looks like he's grown in stature and grown. Great. He talked about the different way that Barcelona's style of football has enabled him to play and how he's responded and really kind of blotts him with that. He just looks so much more varied in what he's capable of on the pitch. You know, I think he could be a little bit one dimensional at Newcastle, but you can see he's grown in stature, he's grown in confidence. He's been a decent performer for some time now, but now is the time to really take games by the scruff of the neck and become a match winner at the top level, it looks like he's doing to me. He's kind of a sleeper here ever football originally, Anthony Gordon. Like, he came through, Everton obviously, like, you know, talented player, he goes to Newcastle,

34:01well, yeah, decent amount of money as well, let's see how he gets on. And all of a sudden, he's starting games with Barcelona and England and he's like one of the leading attacking players in World Football at the moment, you'd have to say. I remember when Gordon was still at Everton and Chelsea were being linked with a 60 million pound move for him. And a wrote an entire piece saying this is completely unmoored from the reality of what he's done as a player. And at that time, there wasn't really much evidence that he was, that that was his future, that even projecting forward, that he was going to have this trajectory. Although he's always had this kind of trajectory in mind for himself, like from a very young age, the first interview he gave Everton, he was aiming for the absolute top. And I think, you know, people found that slightly unusual and surprising, but... And you wonder what kind of impact the validation of joining a club like Barcelona has as well. On just clearly, he always had that belief, but having that belief realized by now playing for one of the best teams in Europe with some of the best players in the world, he must carry himself slightly differently now.

35:08Next up for England and, as he Gordon R. Croix on Saturday evening, Croixer, who on Tuesday, it was, took on the Spain. How did that go? Well, within 70 seconds of the opening kickoff, Spain had already completed 26 passes and the score to go. Croixer hadn't touched the ball once yet. It continued in that vein. Croixer did pull one back, but then Spain much as they had against England immediately responded and ended up for one winners. And the identity of the Croatia goal scorer, oh yeah, who's someone I'm really looking forward to seeing against England the other night. Croixer, they're a funny one. You're kind of waiting for this golden generation to retire, but they're not, I remember right in the piece after the Euros, that Modrich, Parasic, Carverchitch and Cramrich, surely that's the end. And then they go onto the World Cup, and you think surely after the World Cup is a good time to back out, but they're still going. Modrich, Ace 41, Parasic, 37, Carverchitch, 32 and Cramrich, 35, combined caps, 602.

36:11Yeah. Between four players still there, but they do have some young players coming through who are really interested, obviously, Vuskebic at the back is made a really good start with Brighton, Batterina and Sucic, doing well at Nithole, and then the chap who scored in Spain, Dion, Drener, Belgio, who did okay sort of early in his career and played a cup of time for Croatia, and then moved to the Bundesliga with Aluxberg, but scored five goals in two seasons, didn't do much. Well, he's now moved back to Croatia, and last season, this passed me by, he scored 38 goals in 48 games. Wow. He's six foot five, he's beefy, he's scored 96 this year, and he's back in the squad, maybe third-cap against Spain, and scored ahead from a Parasic's cross. Wow. So he should start against England, hopefully, and yeah, look forward to seeing them. Very interesting. It's like a case of Hives, no, the old itches won't go away, and here are some new itches that scored. Yeah, this game, of course, is a repeat of that first group game for England in the World Cup.

37:13Four, two, Tom. Yes. Sure, remember that. Sunshine, swimming pools. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That does that does ring a bell faintly. Yeah. I mean, feels like another lifetime. It does. So as it was, many ways in many ways. Fucking game, though, which promises for Saturday. I think so. I feel like Croatia kind of made that game certainly in the early minutes by their approach. They're really pressed England high, and forced the game into almost like a constant transitional state. I'm not sure if they'll do that again. Yeah, Mrs. England, we're going to be the most exciting team with the World Cup, remember? Yeah, every game's going to be like a Bundesliga game or a Premier League game. Yeah. And then it was not. It was not. We did get the halftime chat from Anthony Barry, though, who talked about England being fearful. Yeah. And England certainly went out after that and had chance after chance. I have the numbers here. Oh, nine shots in the first 12 minutes of the second half. What happened to those Anthony Barry halftime chats? Did they get slightly watered down a little bit? It became such an event. It wasn't one on Tuesday. Was there?

38:17I think was it only a World Cup thing, maybe? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. Your AFA didn't negotiate quite the same level of access. I see. All right. Well, we're looking forward to that game on Saturday. And as mentioned, we will be doing a live podcast. If I didn't mention this, let me say now we're going to be doing a live stream. Pretty swiftly after the final whistle at Reheka. So do join us for that on YouTube. And many thanks to everyone who was with us last Saturday situation in the group. Spain on maximum points. Six England and Croatia tied right now on three points. Peace and Czechia. The boys from Prague on nothing whatsoever. Anonymous you writing into the athletic just on the subject of Spain. And saying as a Spaniard watching the national team since the late late 1960s. I'm suddenly believe this iteration is better than the glorious 2008 12 team. The reason is interesting because coach Delafuente doesn't have the constraints that Del Boschi had,

39:20which was that he had to stick Javi Alonzo into the Barcelona midfield because he had to balance the number of Barcelona and Madrid players in the squad back then. By now and we saw this at the World Cup, Madrid, I've got no involvement or only a passing involvement in the Spanish national side. And that's the way they want to do it. So Delafuente is free to just roll with a Barcelona call and it's doing pretty well for them. Interesting. Is it the only thing that can derail them? Is the Catalan independence movement? Is what you say? Yes. Yeah. Anyway, all right. Who just playing got they have got Czechia on Saturday. Very good. We definitely feel this Spain team were definitely more multifaceted than the great team of kind of 08-12. But I guess they, that team felt quite revolutionary because it was like Tiki Takah, they were doing something completely new. So I think even if this Spain team were to outstrip the achievements of that one and they only won tournament away from, you know, equaling.

40:22Good Lord. Yeah. That Spain team did. I guess because you don't have like the novelty elements, it's suspect they perhaps won't be remembered. Right. I mean, just, I mean, the midfield, the Busch gets chavvy in the Estimate field. I guess now you think about the Spain team. I can't. You think more about the forward players. I guess as well. And so it's probably us, of course. That's a very good point. The fact that they did that extraordinary triple of massive tournaments. After 44 years. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Anyway, there you go. That's Spain. Hey, how about we chat about Wales and other nations up next? Hey, I'm Max Brown. You know the athletic is home to the world's best sports journalism. But this fall, just in time for football season, we're launching something unlike anything we've ever done. We're building the daily show streaming live on YouTube me, Kofi, Oboa, Charles McDonald, and the Athletic Zone, Zach Harper, and Daniel Popper.

41:30We'll be hosting live watch along to the biggest games with award winning analysis and behind the scenes insights from athletic insiders. On off days, we'll go deeper into the hard-hitting stories you can't get enough of. And we want you, the smartest fans in sports, to be part of it. Come drop questions in the chat. We'll bring the answers straight from the source. The Athletic Live presented by Google Gemini. Follow us on YouTube and we'll see you in the chat. You're listening to a quick ad. You know what else is quick? Selling your car on Carvana. Just put in your vehicle information and we'll give you an offer. Done. No hassle. No negotiation. No guy from an online listing lowball in you. Which means by the time I'm done explaining this, you could have basically done it. Still haven't started? Hey. Better late than ever. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply.

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44:37A red for denying a gull scouring opportunity. Having not been sent off when it was going to be a penalty because of double jeopardy. But then when it was decreed to have taken place the foul outside the area, the referee went, oh, well, okay. So you have a free kick. But that means that you can go for denial of gull scouring opportunity. Bittersweet. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, the Swiss won three nils. Scotland have a point. The Swiss have maximum six. Scotland on saturday take on bottom of the table. North Macedonia. Up in League A, Wales, Tom are in a very interesting group. What night was it? You got beat by Denmark. Sunday. Sunday night. Well, that same night Portugal went to Norway, went to Oslo and beat the Norwegians to one. Wow. An impressive result. Christian Ronaldo wasn't so much outstanding as, well, sitting out. He spent the entire game on the bench.

45:38He spent quite a long time warming up. Oh, did he? Stravagantly warming up. Extravagantly. The second half in particular. Rather than standing at the edge of the technical area, doubling out instructions. Yeah. Yeah. And then at the final whistle, he walked down the tunnel. Right. And then said to the press, it's for the good of the team. And that's what's most important. I'm here if the coach needs me. Oh, no, no, he didn't. He had a crisis meeting the next day with the coach and the Portuguese F.A. And then walked out of camp. Yeah. And he said, in due time, I will tell all Portuguese people the truth about the reasons that led to my departure from the national team to which I've always dedicated myself. Fair enough. It's a very beautiful evidence. It sounds like it, right? Now is the time he finishes to wish Portugal and all my teammates good like without exception. Why without exception? What's that doing at the end of that sentence? I mean, who knows? Like this could be it for Ronaldo. Yeah. It's an international footballer. You know, Georges, who's new head coach partly brought in, I think because he'd manage Ronaldo successfully at Alnasser.

46:48And he's clearly seen as being a coach with broad enough shoulders and enough authority to manage someone who, you know, as potentially problematic as Ronaldo. And, Georges, who's gave a very unapologetic press conference after the Norway game where he said, look, I'm the coach, I make the decisions and no one's going to just going to influence that. Ronaldo's obviously not happy. You can't say that Portugal looked any worse without him. I mean, he played against Wales. I think he, I'm not sure whether he competed in 90 minutes, but he started squandered. Squandered, after about 70. Yeah. Squandered some quite presentable chances, one in particular scored a goal that was then rolled out for offside. And yeah, then in his absence, they go and win away against a very dangerous Norway team, Jalf Felix, who's been one of the real beneficiaries of Georges, his appointment scoring for the second game, running. Consular Ramos, who was playing instead of Ronaldo at the point of the attack, scored what proved to be the winner. So you didn't really feel like Portugal needed Ronaldo.

47:55And we've often thought in recent years, do they need him, you know, at all? And we start, I guess maybe we've now, you know, we've now finally arrived at that point. And it's curious that if this is to be the end for Ronaldo as a Portugal player, and that might not be the case. It is incredible that it's happening during the same international break when Lionel Messi is making his farewell as an Argentina player in a full stadium with all the pomp and ceremony that you would expect. And they're potentially bowing out of the international scene in the same week. I feel like, as you've just obviously seen what we've all seen for years now, it reminds me of when Michael Carrick took over from Ruben Ammarim. It's so obvious, you know, that we would all make that decision surely. And there is evidence, as Thomas said, you know, this is sort of four years over due that he shouldn't be in the starting line. If you remember at the 2022 World Cup, he was dropped by Fernando Santos, and they beat Switzerland 6-1, I think it was in the last 16. And Consular Ramos scored a hat trick that day, and it felt like a natural sort of change into the guard. But then of course, Santos gets sacked and Roberta Martinez comes in.

49:02And not only sort of keeps Ronaldo in the fold, but plays him every single minute of every single game. But the times when he did leave Ronaldo out, yes, they were fine. They've won two games by scoring nine goals without him in qualifiers in the past couple of years. They're obviously during the World Cup against Croatia. He was subbed off, and Ramos is the guy who scores the winner. And then of course, he doesn't play against the very good Norway team. They win the other night, who scores the winner, Consular Ramos. So it all kind of adds to, I think it is time for him to retire. I'd like him to retire because he's become this laughing stock. We'll take the making out of him for what he can't do anymore. He's too old, he's too slow, and he's struck when he doesn't get his way. I don't like that narrative. This is one of the greatest footballers of all time. Hopefully the dial can now start to turn again, and we can actually appreciate what a great play was, one of the best we've ever seen. But at the moment, it's just like, yeah, he's amazing, but he's still around for selfish reasons because he wants to score a thousand goals.

50:04Maybe because he wanted to do it for his nation. It's the tragedy of the faded superstar, isn't it, where they're the last person to realize. But the difference is that process doesn't normally take six years, which is what it's felt like it's taken with Ronaldo. And he actually had a really good record under Martin Es in qualifying in terms of goals, which I think supported the delusion, really, that he was still able to carry this team in the final third. And that was, he was disabused of that notion pretty ruthlessly at the last World Cup, as he had been at the Euros previously. And it just, it seems like he hasn't really internalized any of that and still expects to just go back to, yeah, I can score almost a goal a game in qualifying for the next two years, and then we'll have this conversation again. Well, very possibly the conversation that he had after sitting out Sunday's game, Sunday's game in Oslo.

51:04He laid to him, yeah, realizing as he boarded his private jet that this really is it. Jesus, quite possibly was very clear about his future plans. I just wanted to say also in that Portugal win was that Bernardo Silver Tackle on Tackle, I saw whatever you want to call it, has no place in football safe. Well, same foul. So I did play to the guard. Yeah. So the guards just passed the ball and silver goes just kicks it. And like Bernardo Silver is a wonderful player. It's someone who is quite popular with the media because he's a very personable bloke speaks phenomenally good English. And you know, he's a player who we have all watched and enjoyed watching for a long time. He's also one of the sliest footballers around. So like this, this seeing him do something like this is not really a surprise. And you know, it look clearly deliberate. You know, it wasn't, I know I'm just going to sort of, I mean, it looked like a deliberate, not necessarily a deliberate attempt to hurt an opponent, but a deliberate attempt to stick one on an opponent.

52:11The ball that I had passed significantly before. Yeah. I know the guard clearly was hurt by the foul. And then afterwards, Bernardo Silver is walking through the mix home and a Norwegian journalist sort of, you know, asks him what was all that about. We have the Martiner of the Gods and happy the Norwegian players are unhappy and he just says that's football my fans football. Well, there were also interesting comments from Patrick Berg of Norway and Boada Glimpt in the post game on the subject of possible retribution after the attack on their captain. If you want to style it that way, Berg told reporters wait and see. I can say that I'm looking forward to the next game. A player coming and kicking our captain could set things off a bit. It could. That's going to be on Sunday night in Porto and Tim. Well, you're hoping to get along to that game. Portugal, I'm heading out to Porto at the weekend. And yeah, I mean, you know, I know he won't be playing, but it will all be about Ronaldo, you know.

53:14I think so. Yeah. Well, every Portugal game I've ever been to, I've never seen anything like it for any other player in the world. He's like a pop star. Everybody's got Ronaldo shirt. They they film him in the warm up. They film him during the game constantly. They scream when he touches the ball, never seen anything like it. So it'd be really. It's not in Lisbon where he plays in Porto, but it'd be really interesting to see the reaction. You know, I'm just finally on Ronaldo. I do hope he gets a last match. Right. You know, he's done so much for the country that alone just puts you on the football team and he is a door over there for everything that he's done. So it would be it will be shown if it ended like this. Portugal's last game of the National East campaigns away at Wales, which would be quite the place to finish. But you'd imagine the whole range like there to have with Messi some kind of garlour home friendly. You'd hope so. Bring back bail for that one as well. Why not? Yeah. Oh, Wales on Thursday, face Norway. Yes.

54:15Where else currently on no points, no goals scored. Yeah. Yeah. It hasn't been quite as bad as I thought it would be. But we have lost both games. I thought I genuinely thought we'd lose all of our games by at least four goals. OK. We only lost one nil to Portugal. Jalfeel, I'll put them ahead. Really nice shot from the edge of the box about midway through the first half. Portugal then dominated thereafter. But Wales kind of managed to stay in the game and should have equalized right at the end. It ever mix up in front of goal. And then yeah, lost two nil against Denmark on Sunday. And yeah, what we that was a less encouraging performance. But I think, you know, given the given the absentee's given all the negativity around Craig Bellamy, it's been not as bad as it could have been. And we've now got two home games to finish or be it against very good opposition Norway and Portugal. But we hope Portugal won because there's 10 years on from them eliminating Wales in the semi finals at Euro 2016.

55:18Oh, yeah. It's been nice to avenge that in a very small way in an unrelated competition. Other than none of the players who were involved. Another reason to bring bail back here you go. Yeah. Yeah. Elsewhere in the nation's league Greece as flagged up by Apollo door. Thank you Apollo door are in the lead in group a two. There are maximum six points with Netherlands on four Germany at one point after they lost at home to Greece. In Yoganclop's first home game as manager of the man shaft. So this evening as we record Thursday. Greece are going to be taking on Netherlands who themselves won their second game to one in Serbia. Both goals for the Netherlands from Max Murding who wasn't familiar with he's from league leading as a Alkmar. Tim, can you furnish further particulars? No. No. Well, we look forward to seeing how Nelland get on against the surprises of the nations league so far.

56:21Greece Germany meanwhile will be taking on Serbia that victory of the Germany was their first ever Greeks. Yeah. Friday. Franz Italy. Franz Italy. Franz doing well aren't they Tom? Yes. Yes. It's slightly scratchy one-nil win away to Turkey in Zinedine Zadans. This first game as coach, Kenyna Bappey scored in the end of the game in the first half and then going off injured. A more impressive performance away against Belgium on Monday evening. Despite the fact that Zadan made nine changes to his starting 11 so really sort of shuffled the pack. They played some fantastic football. The 0-0-2-1 who came in on the right was exceptional almost scored an absolute worldie in the first half. Rigel passed a couple of chances. A couple of challenges on the edge of the box and cracked a shot against the crossbar.

57:22But the game is kind of wearing on and it's still Nellnell. Franz haven't made the breakthrough. So Zadan turns to the bench, sends on Michael Elyse, also sends on my Jackie and 10 minutes later, Jackie kind of offloads the ball to Elyse. He was midway inside Franz's half and he scores like one of the rest goals he's ever scored. Zadan celebrates it by gambling down the touch line and punting a football into the effort. It was reminiscent in a way of what happened prior to the World Cup when I think it was March when Franz played Brazil and Colombia in back-to-back friendly in the States. It was the first choice of 11 who played and beat Brazil and the second choice of 11 who played and beat Colombia and the second choice of 11 ended up being even more impressive. We saw this in these two games but I think it will be a reversion to the strongest 11 for this game against Italy on Friday. Obviously a game that is going to mean an awful lot. Zadan's first home game as Franz coach so it's a massive moment.

58:25But for it to be against Italy just seems. I mean he spent a good chunk of his career there at Juventus of course. Last time that Italy played France in Paris was two years ago, September 2024, 3-1, 3-1. And then a couple of months later Franz came to Italy and beat them 3-1. This time around Italy seemingly inexorable decline has been arrested by an actual win. An actual win this happened last Monday when Italy themselves went to Turkey and looked absolutely sensational. They tore Turkey apart. What this means about Turkey I guess is a big question but Italy looked reminiscent of that 2021 side. Remember how sparkling they looked in the group stages of the Euros, fast paced attacking football with spin at the saw, a bumming up the wing, putting in crosses. Well it's a similar system and of course it's the same manager Mancini.

59:25But the role is, the spin at the roller road is now very much belongs to Michael Coyote who's doing that work on the right. And is one of this fresh generation that Mancini has called up and for one they won. As I say, has posed one or two questions about what's going on with the Turks who had a miserable time at the World Cup. And I've started this nation's league campaign with two defeats from two and a lot of calls for their manager Vincienzem on teller to do one. They were one of the biggest disappointments at the World Cup weren't they. They went in with so much confidence and they were I think numerous people including my dark horse pick. They are the traditional dog. It was the cliche. I went for the cliche and I'm not proud of it. I at least own up to it now. And they were just so poor, slightly unlucky in some games, but it feels like that trajectory has just continued into a bit of a spiral and it seems quite hard for Monteller to get out of it now.

1:00:25Yeah, a lot of anger. A lot of anger. All right, Tim, you're heading off to Porto. Yes. So that we can. I bet you like getting into that game. Weather looks good. Hmm. Weather looks good. Does it? Yeah, sort of like I think it's about 30. Okay. Yeah, it'll be nice. It's unceasably warm, surely for October. Have the, what's the sandwich good again? The French Ski-N-E, Flanker Ski-N-E. French Ski-N-E. Flanker Ski-N-E. Michael Cox is favorite somewhere. There we go. Have one of those. Very good. Tom, what are you up to this weekend? I'm going to go to North Wales. I believe it's going to be similarly warm. Usually it's this time of year. Low 30s. Low mid. You're joking though, I hope. What about going to Wales or it being warm? I'm joking about one of those things. Okay. Excellent. Will you be attending? No. I'll be in North Wales and the football will be in South Wales. I'll be watching from a safe distance. Excellent. All right. Well, enjoy yourself in Wales and Liam, what does the weekend hold for you? Not live football for probably the last time in a few weeks. I will be walking a dog. My dog. Yes.

1:01:30To be clear. And yeah, just trying to recharge my batteries ahead. Brilliant. Premier League coming back. I've richly deserved. Great. I'll be here in this very studio on Saturday night. And I'll be joined by Agent Clark and Julian Laurent. So, an eclectic lineup and an exciting one as well. Probably there'll be somebody else too. Let's see. You can participate by joining us on YouTube and sending in your comments because we can deal with them in real time when I remember. Excellent. That though does seem to be it for today's show unless I'm missing something. So, very much enjoy the rest of your day, everybody. Thanks to producers Jake and Charlie and to you there, wherever you've been joining us. We'll be back with you soon for now. From all of us here, it's goodbye. Some days getting the work done isn't the problem. Staying locked in is alpha brain is on its daily new tropic formula for cognitive support.

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