Western Rookie - B.S. Session: Mule Deer

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2:02Rubric is the security and AI operations company. Build for what happens after an attack hits. Not just the moments before. AI has turned the threat landscape into quicksand, moving too fast for any human to fully predict. That's why an agentic cyber resilience platform matters. Automated recovery, clean data, a business that keeps moving no matter what hits. One platform, not a patchwork of stitch together tools and gaps. Don't wait for the next attack. Secure and accelerate your business at rubric.com. Again, rubric.com. All right, everybody. This is a podcast. I'm not sure. I don't even know what we're going to talk about today. And I think that once I get into this podcast a little bit, then I'll decide what where it's going to go. It's either going to go on the nine finger chronicles podcast, or it's going to go on the western rookie podcast. But today's guest from the Mule Deer Foundation is Trevor Hubs. Trevor, how are we doing, dude? Oh, I'm doing great. Really appreciate you having me on. Yeah, absolutely. Where do you live? What do you do for a living?

3:05I live in the St. Louis, Missouri area. And technically, I'm in Potosi, Missouri, but nobody knows where that is. So I just say St. Louis. I am the editor-in-chief of the Mule Deer magazine as part of the Mule Deer and Black Tiltier Foundation. Oh, nice. Nice. Okay. So first off, St. Louis, Missouri. I'm a St. Louis Cardinals fan. Okay. I've been a St. Louis Cardinals fan for a very long time. I love going to Bush Stadium. I love going down at St. Louis and visiting and going to all the museums and all the fun things down there. Are you a St. Louis Cardinals fan? You kind of have to be, yeah. I mean, I probably go to maybe five or six games a year. So not a huge fan, but enough that it's a good time. Okay. Who's your favorite St. Louis Cardinals player of all time? I still like Mark McGuire, just because that's what I grew up within the 90s and used to be able to get the cheap tickets to Mark McGuireland and then you get to go to the Donnells. And it was just

4:08such a fun time in grade school to really do somebody. It was fun. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, and oftentimes you think about him. Yes, he broke the, he broke those records and hit all those home runs while he was a Cardinal, but he started off as part of the Batch Brothers in Oakland with him and Jose Konseko, where I don't know if you remember, they would go hit home runs and they would do this giant forearm bump right in the peak of steroid era. And their forearms looked like Mike Wads. And so I don't know. I love, I love that era. Ozzy Smith by far. See, I'm a, I, I was born in 1980. So I grew up in the Ozzy Smith era. And, and so he was like my number one, but after that, when, man, I don't even know when he started Yaddi Air Molina. Man, yeah, guy is a killer at catcher, dude. I loved everything about that guy and how he played the sport. And loved him. So those are my two favorite all time, all time players and honorable mention Mark

5:14McGuire. There you go. And, and who could forget Albert Poole-Hose, right? Yeah, he was a, he's a Cardinal for a long period of time. So, right. So, um, St. Louis, Missouri, other, other cool things about St. Louis, Missouri that most people don't know about or that surrounding area. Um, I think the cool, the two coolest things. Um, so we run a recipe section in the magazine. Uh, that's kind of my little brainchild that I've brought on since I started in 2024. But, I like food. I like cooking. I like, uh, especially with wild game and stuff. But two things for St. Louis is people can't quite place us as far as like are we in the upper south, are we in the Midwest? What are we doing here? But you can come to St. Louis and you can get, you can't get as much of it, but you can get as good occasion food as you can find in New Orleans, because we're only 10 hours up river. Yeah. Whereas like if you go down to, um, to like the river neighborhoods, a lot of yet, um, sous-lard, like you're getting it shrimp, you're gonna get crawfish, you're gonna get oysters and it's all really good. People come and

6:18they're like, I don't know if I want to get oysters in St. Louis and like not promise you do. I promise you do. Yeah. Um, so it's just the food scene a lot of people don't know about. The other one is this went back to even when I was in high school. Um, the hill. So St. Louis is like a lot of, uh, communities a little segregated where like you have an Italian neighborhood, you have an Irish neighborhood, yeah, they have to get American neighborhood. But so the hill is the Italian neighborhood and up until like 2000s, uh, 2010s even, uh, you could go through and they'd have little chalkboards outside their house, like just lasagna, 40 bucks, um, shrimp, ravioli or seafood ravioli, $36 and you could, we would go and there'd be a separate little table for two for date night. But it's just that, that mom or that lady that lives in that house, that's she's cooking for dinner and just make an extra money on the side for you to pay her 40 bucks and go eat and they have a little side table in their kitchen where you can, that's where I took my, uh, my homecoming date. Junior, your house. That's amazing. Right. It's a super and they, the food, whatever food, FDA, I don't know who's in the food police. I'll eventually shut it

7:20down because there's no certifications or anything. Also, it's not a thing anymore. No, no dude, but it was a super cool, like I didn't realize how cool it was at the time that like that you're just getting some super authentic Italian food that, uh, right out of some ladies' kitchen. Exactly. Yeah. Some like that happened to me once, um, in 1997, I went down to the, uh, down to New Orleans and I'm just walking around New Orleans by myself with two other white kids and we were just like, hey, let's go check out this neighborhood, this neighborhood. And there was this lady. She had her, she was standing out front of her house. Garage doors open and she's like, hey y'all hungry and we're just like, yeah, well, we'll eat. And so we sat in a picnic table in her garage and there was like, and one of those old Pepsi where you push the, the plastic letters into the Pepsi,

8:23like a menu that's on a board. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Gumbo, ex-dumber dollars, right? Hamburger, whatever. And this lady had cut a hole in her wall from the garage to her kitchen and would cook in her kitchen and hand it out. Definitely, US today was not involved in this. Yeah. So we sat in there. I was probably 16 or 17 years old and three of us had this. And then after we ate, she said, you can't be here anymore. You need to leave this neighborhood before you get robbed and murdered. So, uh, perfect. Yeah. So we donated, uh, we, we cooked some food and then she told us, hey, uh, they don't like people like you here. So you better get out of here. So. And then, so I go back home and on the news, it said New Orleans, there was like 14 murders in one week down in there. And I was like, holy shit. Why did they have a youth, a Lutheran youth,

9:26ministries, uh, gathering down there at that time? It was nuts. Anyway. Anyway. I love St. Louis, dude. I feel like St. Louis is making a little bit of a comeback, right? Like 15 years ago, St. Louis never had like, there was a lot of rundown. There was a lot of shitty parts, right? And then maybe it was nelly or maybe it was some like, uh, urban development that happened. But I'll tell you, St. Louis is on the come up big time, I think. Yeah. Well, it's such an interesting city because you, it's like the downtown is kind of desolate, which is, yeah, it's so different from, you know, Chicago, you're since an ad you Louisville Nashville, it's, uh, but there's just like, you couldn't, you can't really live down. I think there's not grocery stores, there's not barber shops, like it's just offices. And if there's not a Cardinals game, there's just no one there. Right. Like it's, it's, it's wild. But, but then you go, I want all these little surrounding communities and it's, you haven't been able to have a great time and eat 10 different great kinds of food. Like, it's

10:26really fun city. Amen. Amen. All right. Talk to me a little bit about your role as the editor in this magazine. Are you responsible for creating the content or do you guys have a whole bunch of different contributors to the magazine? So actively shopping for more contributors, you can find my email, put it in the show notes or it's just, it's just my name T hubs at muledeer.org. But I'm always looking for people who have a story to tell. Um, so I think, I don't know what's our state. I think I have like 60 contributors right now that I kind of filter through based on who wants to write a story about mulede here. Or who's got the best story. But, um, yeah. So I have, I actually Rambo, who does like our PR and basically she's just, she's the oil that keeps the, the wheels moving for our entire department. She's great. Two different graphic designers. One is a freelance graphic designer and then one is our in-house graphic designer that keeps up with things and then we're actually published on Eastman's publishing platform. Okay. Eastman's magazine

11:28all their stuff. We're in their suite of publications. But, uh, yeah. So I set the theme, sort the content, try and put together an issue that is mildly entertaining for people. Yeah. Yeah. What, uh, there's no, there's no mule deer in St. Louis. All right. Oh, between eight and 30 get killed in Missouri a year. Eight and 30 mule deer get killed in Missouri every year. Interesting. Is that in the Northwest corner or Western? I mean, it's generally along the west, but then we had one, um, I'll be right back. So on the farm in St. Louis, Missouri, we had this one, which is a white tail mule deer hybrid. This was killed last year. So you can see the bifurcated back antlers. That's a typical mule deer, but he's got big eye guards typical of a white tail. So in my line of work, I have access to a lot of really smart scientists, uh, sent some genetic

12:28material for a testing and it's coming back at like 40% mule deer ish. And I don't know all the signs. I don't know how they determine that, but that was the best guess. All right. All you white tail nut jobs. It's hunting season. And that means football is finally back. College kickoff is here. NFL is right around the corner. And my bookie is where I'm placing my action this season. Whether you're in between hunts or just checking lines from the tree stand, my bookie makes it stupid simple to lock in your place. Plus new users get the bet back bonus. Sign up with promo code S E opt in and your first wager is protected. That means if it loses, you get it right back. No questions asked head to my bookie use promo code S E and get in on the action today bet on anything, anytime, anywhere. Wherever the day takes you, extra tough is built to go with you. With a legacy of durable waterproof protection, extra tough keeps you comfortable, confident and ready when the weather turns. For mornings on the water, to rainy weekends,

13:31muddy trails and everything in between, these are boots built to keep moving when conditions get tough because the best days rarely come with perfect weather. Alaska proven built for all. Discover extra tough at extra tough dot com. That's crazy. It's interesting. That is that is very interesting, which would okay, so what you called that that back antler by what? What's the term? By by fritated, which basically by meaning two, which is one antler, the hair for one antler that goes into two points, very typical of mule deer. So and this is this is small, like this would be a small deer decent white tail, but very small if it was a pure mule deer. Yeah, so I can take a look at a white tail and I can say that's a white tail. I can take a look at a mule deer and I can say that's a mule deer. Where and there's so much area from like what is it? The Missouri River, right?

14:37For I'm just going to use South Dakota as an example. Cuts that state in half and for the most part, anything on the western side is going to be mule deer heavy and anything on the eastern side is going to be white tail heavy. That's a pretty big geographic line in the sand. Where else do you find that? Where there's a potential mix of that? Yeah, so if you come down like Iowin Nebraska border, Kansas, Missouri border, even into North-West Arkansas at times in Oklahoma, maybe know that's rare. And then like if you want to split Texas right down the middle, that's another one. We actually, I mean, this is two or three years ago. I don't know if we're still doing the project, but we're working with Oklahoma fishing game on a project to track their mule deer migrations within their state. Because Oklahoma like Missouri, you just buy a general deer tag. They don't split it into a mule deer tag or a white tail tag like South Dakota does. Yeah, so you can go hunt mule deer in Oklahoma with your over-the-counter deer tag and allow

15:38guys didn't even realize, oh, there's Oklahoma, are there's mule deer in Oklahoma? So we were working with them trying to track these eastward, are this eastern migration? Do you want to call it that? Or is eastward trending movement? I don't want to say. Yeah. I say, because everything I say on this podcast, I'm going to get four calls from we have about 60 biologists, spot-ness, four-ster, and so all these people that really pay attention to this stuff and they're like, yeah, you had four spelling mistakes in this Latin word. I'm like, I'm sorry. But anyway, yeah, so I'm trying to be a little careful, but anyway, just know that anything I say, there's a much smarter scientist somewhere right now listening is very upset. Right. Just a little bit of an asterisk right there. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm going to do my best. I won't lie to you, but that blows my mind. And so does a hybrid deer between those two species look more like one than the other? In general, hey, there's exceptions everywhere, but in general, a white tail buck is more aggressive than a mule deer buck, which is weird because in general,

16:39mule deer buck will outweigh a white tail buck, but a white tail buck will just beat the sh- out of those, I don't know where a lot of the curse will beat the crap out of those. I'll do it every once. Mule deer bucks. They'll chase them off. They will, so generally, a white tail buck with a mule deer doe. Okay. But so basically, the different looking is those white tail are genetics could be any mix. You could have like the weird antlers like I have, you could have a weird tail. One of my favorite descriptions of mule deer is actually the furt, not the first description because of theirs. Native American descriptions and like French fur trapping descriptions, but the first by a European American coming from the United States, as Maryweather Lewis in 1804 coming through, it's either Iowa or South Dakota at the time, and he says, we saw a strange deer with a queer gate in his journal and he talks about the way, and it's, it's, it's, it's called a starting gate, but it's when, because mule deer hops, so a lot of times you'll see like, well, looks like a white tail, but it's doing this weird hop,

17:42that white tail just don't do. That's the, right. My biggest dead giveaway whenever I'm in those weird hybrid zones, right. And then we have a whole different kind of hybrid that I've been kind of geeking out on recently, because I'm looking for 2027 and I'm going to start chasing blacktail deer. Seriously, for the first time, I've been up in blacktail country, but never with a tag in my pocket, but next year is my year to draw, but so you have what they call bench leg bucks, which I don't know why they call them bench leg bucks, because I think the legs look the same, but it's like right in the middle of Washington and Oregon, where like you have those Pacific coastal blacktail deer hybridized with the mountain, inner mountain west mule deer, and you have a hybrid between a blacktail and a mule deer. And so like, if you see this one's a mule deer, it's got one white throat patch. A blacktail will have a second patch right there, lower. Okay. Kind of like an analogue will have multiple patches. So like, a lot of times you'll see a mule deer, it looks like a mule deer, but then you just got this faint gray second patch.

18:46That's an indication that that's hybridized with a blacktail deer, or you'll have a blacktail deer in coastal Washington that is just massive, just looks huge, that has almost no secondary patch. And you're like, oh, that hybridized with a mule deer, and it makes it really interesting to explore that part of the world as well. That's interesting on the crossovers. And so there's got it's got to be able to, in my, this is a theory, because I'm not a scientist, but it's got to be, it's got to all come back to their all species of deer. And so they all could potentially breed with one another, like a coos deer could potentially breed with a whitetail or a mule deer if they ever overlap. Right. And so just like almost like a dog, all dogs could probably, all canines could probably breed with one another. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, and there's also, so one of the most interesting things about deer coming,

19:48mule deer coming east and to me is, I mean, Missouri is not sagebrush country. Right. We are, we are Eastern deciduous forest. I know we like, St. Louis is the gateway to the west. It's where the hawk and muzzleloader was made for all the mountain men like, it's kind of the west, but it's not like people say, oh, like west of the Mississippi, like, well, we actually are west of the Mississippi. You can't count it like that. But the point of that is a mule deer's diet has to be sage. Like they cannot, we have mule deer every year that we find, like, collared mule deer that either us or our state partners or national wildlife service partners, forest service partners find dead starve to death every winter with a belly full of barley or corn because their bodies cannot process it. They need the native vegetation, which is why you can't do mule deer and high fence because they can't subsist on like feed the way a white tank can. That's crazy. I never thought of that. You can't. It's interesting. Yeah. That's why you don't see like high fence mule deer operations. Okay. It's one of the cool, and it's one of the coolest

20:52things to me about them is like, I love my white tails. Like I, I like tree stand hunting as much as the next guy like getting my rent my recurve bow out and having some fun that first week in November. But with mule deer like, they just feel wilder. You know, like they cannot be put in a cage. You cannot. You can't go buy one. I mean, I'm editor of a magazine. I don't make a ton of money. Not complaining if my boss is listening. I love my job. But I can't go buy a big mule deer. That makes sense. You know, like, I mean, as we're at a ranch or something like really controlled environment. Yes, you probably could, but you can't like a whitetail shooting a 200 inch, two year old, right? Yeah. Just doesn't even look real. You know what I mean? Yeah. I got the exact same. So which makes them a little cooler to me than whitetail. But I don't know. I also, I just like the environment that they're in. That sagebrush, those rolling hills. Like, I'm I drew a tag in Montana this year. So I'm actually heading out there on Wednesday to do some

21:56scouting before the season. I mean, I also have an analogue tag that I'm going to try and fill when that opens next week. And then the following week, when mule deer opens, hopefully I've got enough, enough, enough, bedded enough knowledge of the area that I can make a difference there. That's awesome. I mean, well, I'm pulling for you. Hopefully, hopefully that that it just, you always hear about something like this because I can remember, you know, I live in Eastern Iowa. I was raised in southern Iowa. And every year, you would hear a story about somebody catching a mountain lion on jail camera or someone would, there would be a bear spotted or the craziest one was when I was in middle school, my buddy's dad is driving down the road and saw a giant bull moose in in some farm pasture. And he's like, wait a second, call the newspaper, newspaper shows up, takes its picture, gets in the the paper. And I don't know, I don't know what happened to that.

22:59But that's a very long way from where moose typically reside, right? And so there's always got to be some kind of, you know, when I think of things like this, I think of a bell curve, right? There's got to be outliers on the far ends of whatever range an animal lives in. Right? So like an elk, there's always an elk wild elk spotted in Western Iowa, right? Which is, you know, or something like that. So there's always, there's always some outlier there that makes makes the news every single year. And so the fact that 30 mule deer on average get killed in Missouri every year is pretty exciting, man, because I would love to hunt mule deer in Iowa. That's, yeah, that's, but we just don't have the habitat for it. Rubric is the security and AI operations company built for what happens after an attack hits, not just the moments before. AI has turned the threat landscape into quicksand,

24:01moving too fast for any human to fully predict. That's why an agentic cyber resilience platform matters. Automated recovery, clean data, a business that keeps moving, no matter what hits. One platform, not a patchwork of stitch together tools and gaps. Don't wait for the next attack. Secure and accelerate your business at rubric.com. Again, rubric.com. Rubric is the security and AI operations company built for what happens after an attack hits, not just the moments before. AI has turned the threat landscape into quicksand, moving too fast for any human to fully predict. That's why an agentic cyber resilience platform matters. Automated recovery, clean data, a business that keeps moving, no matter what hits. One platform, not a patchwork of stitch together tools and gaps. Don't wait for the next attack. Secure and accelerate your business at rubric.com. Again, rubric.com. The sage, it's a super, but so if they're, that's what is most interesting to me about like the hybridization or them coming east is like just the opportunity to hunt mule deer where there isn't

25:02that that sage and then moreover, I mean, so mule deer are the only big game animal that we have less of today than we did 50 years ago. Yeah. I mean, we're doing not saying that like we as humans haven't made mistakes, but like more bison, there's more elk, there's more big horn sheep, there's more antelope. Like we are, we are doing pretty good at recovering these species that we have messed up a little bit, but mule deer, they're just, they're just dropping off and it's not drop, I'm not trying to scare anybody like they're not dropping off like you're not going to draw a tag in the next 10 years, but they are dropping off to where like I go get as a non-reson, I get to mule deer hunt every other year, every third year depending on my draw my draw luck, my grandkids won't have that option. Right. It'll be every 10 years, maybe. Yeah. Like it's if if something doesn't change and it's yeah, there's your CEO, I forget his name. Greg she in or she in. Yeah, so I believe it was Greg was on on the podcast a while back on the western rookie podcast,

26:04and he was talking about how sensitive these animals are to environmental changes, to disease, compared to like like again blows my mind how tough and how tough a white tail is and how they can thrive just about anywhere, right. And a mule deer is extremely sensitive to environmental changes and cattle and all the other things and expansion human expansion compared to a white tail, they'll live in someone's backyard mule deer do that too, but they have to have certain things in order for that to happen, right. Sure. Yeah. Yep. Well, and that's really that's that's kind of the the way that wildlife is going in this country is you have wild animals that can adapt to a heavy human presence and you have some that can't like some other examples specifically. Look, you look at snow geese like we are now you're allowed to hunt snow geese nine months out of the year. Yeah. And they are just booming. Why are they booming because they can exist on a

27:04model culture, which is what we've created with the modern farming system in the United States. Yeah. Is they can sit there, they can eat beans, they can eat corn all day, they don't need a diversity like of plant life the way other critters do. Similar to if we look at like so what when the wagons train came when the wagon trains came west, you know, they're eating sharp tail grouse sage grouse prairie chickens, um, quail things that naturally occur in this country and all the sudden we introduce fesents and we have this agriculture and like these birds don't eat agriculture, they eat the native birds don't eat agriculture, the grasshoppers they need to grass seeds and things like that, but fesents love agriculture, right. They're going to be in ditches along corn fields all over the place like so fesents thrive with human interaction native game birds shrink. To the point, there's only like two or three states left where you can even hunt a perchicken legally. They're so they're so few of them. And it's uh it's interesting. Yeah. During this past

28:05youth season, I was walking into the farm that me and my boy were hunting and we kicked up a quail two days in a row in the same exact spot. And I thought that was pretty sweet because you don't see a lot of quail uh running around. I mean back in the there's a period of time on a couple of the farms that I hunted that were in CRP programs where I would kick up a cubby a quail like four or five of them on a routine basis. And now you just don't see them anymore. But it was pretty cool to kick kick them up. Uh, exact. That's my grandpa used to be a quail hunter and uh like all the quail hunters like this kind of die off when the quail go away. And I think there's there's two or three farms in the area where I can reliably go find quail and um got a bird dog back there that yep. Try and keep him active with the with the quail and we try not to take maybe one out of a cubby a season just uh yeah. Try and boost the numbers but it's uh something we used to have that I wish we still had. Yeah. Yeah. How many uh how often do you get to go and hunt me old deer?

29:10Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just by yourself. Do you get to go out every year? No. So I do every other year or every third year depending on how aggressive I want to be with the tag. I could draw every year really if I really needed to. But I'm trying to build I have a system where uh anybody can use the system I encourage more people to go hunting and if this is what makes more more people mule deer hunt great. I'm not uh trying to keep any secrets but I put in for points in Montana, Wyoming and Colorado every year and then on fourth years I try and go to Alaska because Alaska is uh there's a lottery state which means you don't have points. Anybody has the same ability to draw the problem with Alaska for me is everything is an adventure where you're just not getting out of Alaska for less than three grand. Yeah. Like for whatever it is I mean I've done over the counter caribou had a great time. I've been up there with some people on some blacktail hunts without a tag in my pocket had a great time been up there fishing had a great time but it's always at least too cramped to get to get there and back with some hunting or fishing intent. But anyway

30:17yeah so with Montana, Wyoming and Colorado one of those of the three states kind of closest to me with mule deer and elk and sheep and moose and all the cool stuff that I like to hunt every uh every year I could I'll draw on one of those states ideally because I'll always have like a rolling three points like this year's Montana's year next year will be Wyoming 2028 will be Colorado by the time I'm doing this in Colorado I'll have three points again in Montana and then I'll have three points why I was so I can always draw with three points somewhere now I was trying to put up where I'm up I think I'm up to uh I I held off for a little while and last year I did Wyoming with five points uh I know two years ago I did Wyoming with five points which was a great time uh I just had the misfortune of um the house draw fire coming through my hunt unit about two months before hunting season opened yeah which it's burned like the uh space and central Wyoming the size of Connecticut I want to say it was huge yeah and uh it's weird like about that Wyoming fishing game is coming

31:20and calling people like hey if you want to turn your tag in you can like we'll give you your points back and uh I chose not to just because like I talked to biologists and biologists like I mean either they're gonna go into your freezer or they're gonna starve to death in the winter because there's not enough food left on the landscape to sustain them but it's uh so I I don't know oh it's wild so like they encouraged me and uh the four guys in my little group to keep to go out and keep hunting and I was successful I shot a uh a three by two on the last day of the season uh like the last hour of hunting um just like fading light and took it and I was very happy to have taken it very happy to have him but it was uh not the five point hunt that you think of when you're you cash in five years worth of points but it was uh so are this most recent addition of the magazine depending when this comes out fall is fall magazines at the printer right now should start arriving in the next couple weeks at doorsteps but uh our summer magazine uh is all about wildfire and all about control burns and just the effective fire on the landscape and really that started two years ago

32:24during that hunt for me is when I wanted to do something focused on fire just because of it was my first real time on a fire that where we had the elk fire actively burning 12 miles away to the point where they're on public radio saying hey uh Sheridan why homing you need to need to be ready like we're nine miles from Sheridan and every wildfire in the state is digging a line outside of Sheridan to keep it from burning down yeah like that's there is a big town like and that the sky is full of smoke and like and it just shook me because there's so many people like at coffee shops and at the fly shop like walking around in their fake fur vest and their cowboy hat they're only going to break out one more time for a bachelor at party in Nashville in a couple of years and like like everything's fine they're just walking around and like you know the world is ending nine miles that way like somebody's farm is burning down they're not going to recover like there are ranchers and state troopers running around with um both cutters cut in fences wherever they can because uh they need to get interesting yeah well they need to get the wild life out the

33:25wildlife the cattle everything has to get out and it's uh and anilope and mule they're like they will jump a fence i've seen it happen but they don't like to where do you see so like that's the active elk fire coming back to the house draw fire which had burned out by the time i got there like walking along these fences on uh BLM land like i've got i picked the piece up you just have a dozen charred bones piles of bodies from i think this is either a young mule deer or a young anilope vertebrae just crispy and they where you could tell where they ran up along the fence trying to find a way over in the fire just caught them damn dude they just burned a death in a pile trying to get through that yeah i thought i watched uh i watched a couple documentaries about um or i shouldn't even call it a documentary it's it was a video someone put out about they uh they were hunting and then a fire came through so they went away they came back like a couple weeks later or a week later to go hunting again in this area that uh and they ran into mule deer that were severely

34:33burned but not dead yeah and this guy hunted and killed uh a mule deer that a mule deer buck that was just crispy and but he was like really in pain he needed to die right like so this guy shot him and so it is amazing what these animals have to go through especially out west these mule deer they live in an environment that scares the shit out of me it can be hot it can be a hundred degrees one day the next day it can snow and be 20 20 degrees then they have to deal with fire they have to deal with drought they have to deal with flash floods they have to deal with uh livestock they have to deal with humans and it's like they i don't know there's something i'm a i'm a midwest guy right so i come my teeth on white tails but there's something about the mule deer that i just like i don't know what it is that's the that is the western species for me if that makes sense yeah yeah no

35:35hundred percent and it is uh it's just wild to think of like i mean you nailed it i mean every day that this deer from from when this deer like first uh gets is born or stands up like there are just a dozen things out there trying to kill it and you think about white tail like are there wolves in Wisconsin that hunt white tails yes so the wolves in like new England for white tails yes but really like Missouri Iowa like we got coyotes every now and then we'll have a mountain line that comes through that'll that'll that'll hurt put a hurt on white tail but that's between me and every other f-150 on the road we are the main predators of white tail yeah that's it that's all that's hurting them after a while like it's um but mule deer like it's every day something is chasing up something is after them and there is no rest and that makes them a little cooler yeah absolutely and and dude the environment that these animals live in from 14,000 feet 10,000 feet whatever to the prairies of like the decodos and stuff man i don't know there's nothing more

36:38there's nothing cooler than driving down the road and seeing a gigantic mule deer 350 pound 180 class chalkwood antler mule deer staring back at you in that environment dude i just i don't know i don't know what it is cool um i got to take a pause here and i got to say thank you to the partners of this podcast and so for those of you who are listening if you guys could please do me a favor and go check these guys out i would really appreciate it first on the list is vortex optics i know they're big into conservation efforts and things like that they they donate a lot of money every year to helping wildlife foundations i'm almost positive they donate to the the mule deer foundation but vortex optics go check out their rangefinder spotting scopes red dots um all the accessories you need binoculars everything they have a badass apparel line vortex optics dot com and look into their vi p warranty next on the list is wasp archery um wasp is a brand that i like because most of their

37:46products are still manufactured in the united states they uh they do it a lot of destruction and when i uh finally got into with shooting range of my uh mule deer i i was using a three blade jackhammer that destroy absolutely destroyed the tissue that i was looking for it to destroy the first thing that hits the deer wasp archery dot com i do have a discount code n f c two zero for 20% off and then next on the list if you're trying to get inside that that kill zone that that bubble and uh you you don't want them to spook you want them to take a second to look at you maybe even use it to your advantage go check out Montana decoy go check out Montana decoy dot com and uh read up and check and look at all the decoys anilope white tail mule deer elk and so forth and so on Montana decoy dot com all right no i love all those guys vortex uh gram cronin up there oh yeah gram he's the man these dudes they are uh they've been helping me out since i i swindled them in

38:512019 uh oh i went to so this is funny we were at a trade show and i went to fh f gear and this was my first started like freelance writing i was writing for like two different publications and that was across the midwest like one was like badger sportsman and Wisconsin and then like a zuri outdoor news um so like i'm a nobody but i went to fh f gear and like i talked to them about getting a free bino harness because i'd use it in a story and they gave me one and then i went over to vortex and was like hey they just gave me this bino harness but i don't really i don't really have any binos to put in it and i don't want to look weird when i take pictures could you help me out and like grams like skeptical but he gave ended up shipping me some binos at uh anyway i've been a vortex guy ever since so figure like i owe them they gave me some free binos and uh no i mean i have their rifle scopes on my rifles um love those guys if you ever in uh Wisconsin stop by stop by that there's just that everyone there is the nicest nicest person you're gonna meet um um yep absolutely i've been swindling vortex for years i've been swindling vortex for years so

39:51don't don't worry about it and if you want to use decoys to hunt mule deer it's not uh is not super common but we do have an article about it you can probably just google decoys for mule deer and it'll pop up but it's a couple years old but uh one of the coolest parts about my job is we have we get to have wild ideas like i'm gonna use him decoy for mule deer and see what happens and get a couple people to ship us some decoys and we're gonna go try it out and i mean we have 60 plus people that all hunt like even our biologists let them hunt and it's uh so i can try something in put it with a hunter in Arizona i can put it with a hunter in Nebraska put it with a hunter in Washington state and figure out like what's going on it's pretty fun but yeah no all good companies all of those guys i got a guy in western Kansas who's an absolute deer slayer so if there's a big buck whether it's white teller mule deer um on the landscape it's in trouble and he was telling me how efficient he is with a decoy on white tails and mule deer and he's he's found his niche and

40:54you give him a mule deer decoy during the right time and he can get a buck to come in with en shooting range of a bow he's like dude it's it's almost automatic man that is so that is something that i have never done um during the rut like the mule deer rut i i've heard about it i've written about it i've been holding the camera during the mule deer rut but so i have a seven year old and the five year old where Halloween is still like a really really fun time for them yep so like trying to hunt that October 29th through November 5th kind of window i just can never quite make it happen for the whole seven days where i'm either an early season mule deer guy or late season because i can't can't uh take Halloween from the kids and just like nah i can't pull myself away yet when they're a little older and the magic's gone then i'll be back out there but uh yeah the mule deer rut you hear some amazing stories about guys just let bucks that they've been missing since September all of a sudden are just walking around the middle of the day it sounds like fun yeah i've been out to

41:54South Dakota yeah it was South Dakota and i went out there for a late um i okay so i went out there in October i couldn't get the job done the first week of October then i went back out there after the rifle the the rifle season was over in December and there were still running a little bit and that was pretty cool i mean i did i saw an absolute ton of liketips and i mean a excuse me of mule deer yeah there was days where i would see 500 just driving the roads right i mean not in one group but a group here sure there and so i i got access to a private piece that i knocked on permission and this buck was like chasing off other little bucks and he was he was like hurting his do's into a field and he was he was doing all the things that a mule deer buck does now i was sitting on top of a hill just watching it unfold with a pair of binoculars so it was pretty

42:56so it was pretty fun um have you been other than that how well how did you get that white to or that mule deer buck behind you oh so this is my first mule deer buck ever and it's uh ah it's probably tied with my biggest i didn't get either of a measured but so i mean it's a 4x4 um i shot that in one of my favorite parts in the country which is alzato montana which every listener like 50s and 60s country music which you know not for everybody but it's fun every now and then like alzato was the town for those cattle drives coming north from Texas to montana where it's just like once you hit alzato you made it and you if you look up alzato in the landscape they just got a gas station two years ago um but otherwise like there's nothing there like three or four houses and some ranches but it is surrounded by BLM where you can just park the truck set up your tent and walk and i really like it um you know when you're coming in

43:57so i think it's like highway 212 that comes from south bell fush south Dakota through Wyoming into montana and then runs all the way through the crow reservation up to uh custer's last stand and uh and eventually billings but uh one of the most beautiful stretches is a highway in the country even if you're not uh haunting like drive it if you're in if it's in like summer early fall spring like you're gonna just see some really cool stuff but anyway um you know when you've hit alzato because you see this uh little i guess it used to be a bar or something on the side of the road but it's painted stark white and then in letters the size of me about six foot tall letters just says cowboy shit for sale on the side and it is like i've never gone in there because it always looks like it's dilapidated but i love it it's it's just a really cool little little western uh western town and it's where you could throw a rock and hit Wyoming or south Dakota but uh it's about twelve hours from me i really enjoy it but anyway um yeah this was uh taken out my buddy on a hunt he had a doe white tail tag that you can get over

45:01the counter and i had a mule deer tag and we're both in the army together and we're just sleeping out of a tent and walking around seeing what we didn't that didn't know much that it was 2020 maybe 2019 could have been but uh yeah i had this guy and one that looks just like him about the third day of the hunt um moving through some uh some cattle and uh ended up being like a 200 yard shot and it was great i'd really enjoyed it um about a three mile pack out back towards the trucks and not a ton but not uh enough that you feel it in your shoulders and oh yeah really cool yeah one of the hardest things i've ever done is uh physically is pack out a mule deer in south Dakota we were so we were camping in roughly a mile and a half and then we went another mile and a half in uh on some like national grassland and some BLM and uh and my the guy i was with shot a really nice mule deer and we had to pack that out along with all of our gear so we had

46:04well over and it was a giant mule deer like um that's what i mean giant not necessarily the antlers because those were huge too but his body was 300 pounds dude yeah so we definitely took like 150 to 200 pounds of meat off this buck i mean it it was ridiculously huge and and so we each had over a hundred pounds with all the gear on and um and so we had to pack that out three and a half miles and i'll tell you this hundred pounds i don't care who you are uh for three and a half miles and it wasn't like Colorado right where you're walking at your default but it's up and down little bumps up and down the whole time and our legs were dead by the time we got back to the truck dude but but it was such a rewarding moment oh hundred percent it's uh people think i was in south Dakota last week that's where i kind of start my i do like uh i kind of like a pre hunting season where it's i hunt prairie grass with the dog and i go out there but i set up the wall tent and i do the whole thing and i kind of treat it like if i'm missing anything here this will help me not forget things and

47:08deer season when i need them later and uh anyway dude south Dakota people think it's flat and it is kind of flat but it's uh it's like walking across a pair of corduroy pants man you're just 50 feet hundred feet of elevation just up and down all day and it's uh i'll ton of fun but no i know exactly what you mean like you can get burned out quick yeah for sure for sure but the thing i love about like those western states is you make a mistake and then no big deal you just go to the next little piece of public and scrub it right and there's so much public land you know so love it absolutely it's uh the opportunity for mistakes is uh and i get uh so i used to work out of mazoo montana and you just have a bunch of guys that have grew up with public land and that's their whole thing they know public land and like we don't really have a ton and like we have the markoy national forest i'm very grateful for that in Missouri but like even to try and find a boat ramp on the Mississippi is hard to do and even that's federal water where you could duck under anything

48:08like it's access is not as easy as it is out west and it's uh people are always like oh but there's so many more animals in the east and it's got to be so much easier for you and i'd say physically it is easier in the east but mentally it's more exhausting because like if you mess up on a 60 acre piece of white tail property like you've messed it up for a while yeah like where you can you can blow a lot of stocks in the west and still come away successful on the same day like so much fun right right do you find yourself gravitating to firearms more or do you bow hunt at all so i really enjoy bow hunting i've uh i want to say so i i have like the opposite of what most bow hunters i guess um i've never shot a compound bow i keep like telling myself i'm going to i'm going to every year and buy one but i've been using uh 1978 bear 55 pound recurve that i found in uh so like i was 15 and all my butters are getting into bow hunting in high school and i found uh found this recurve bow and my grandpa is garage that he used 10 15 seasons ago and he's

49:14just like yeah take it so i've got got a re-strong or whatever and i've been using that since 2005 yeah uh oh and have you ever been successful on a recurve mule deer hunt? not on a recurve mule deer i've been successful on an elk hunt i've taken a black bear with it and that dozen or more white tails with it that i really i really enjoy it it's uh i need to i need to try and you i have carried it on mule deer hunts but never successfully just take it for a walk in the sage yeah i just feel like that would be the ultimate bow hunting experience is to put a stock with a recurve on a bedded mule deer buck i know guys who do it who weigh better way better than me because they can get inside that bubble and they get the job done that that would be an epic goal of mine someday i know people that do it and it's it's honestly it is something i need to try in the next couple years before um for these knees get any worse that's back to uh but no the closest

50:17i got was in i guess 2022 i was really dedicated and i was shooting a lot more than i am now and i was good out to about 40 i was comfortable where i could hit a basket ball at 40 like i can i was feeling good anyway um i got to about 45 on this group of six mule deer bucks all bedded down together um this is also in montana in like the mazeri breaks region where it's like rocky enough that i can like hide and kind of creep up on them and as soon as i came up i got to full draw and they were they were probably about 50 yeah they were probably about 50 and there's a there's a slope involved and i kind of tricked myself into thinking i could do it and fortunately um like they they saw me and they they took off and that's i never got any closer and i didn't didn't send an arrow but uh yeah that's as close as i've ever come with the with the reaker on the deer but they man it is fun what uh when you go and you hunt your mule deer in uh with the fight like so it's mostly firearm season when you go yes yeah okay uh what month is that typically in

51:23uh so depends on where you're at like i don't think i'm giving away any trade secrets here but uh if you are a muzzleloader hunter or you're comfortable with a muzzleloader or you're willing to get comfortable with it that's your best bet for drawing some of these these tags in Colorado Utah Arizona uh i mean Arizona is going to be tough for anybody but Nevada is a good tag state but there's a lot more opportunities for muzzleloader than you think and with mutton you have to be careful i don't want to say modern muzzleloaders but uh because these states do have regulations like no pelletize powder no scopes uh some of you have like no uh what are you figuring we'd call those glow sight things oh yeah yeah uh fire optic sight yeah yeah so yeah you gotta be really careful when i say modern muzzleloader um but i guess look look at your regulations but that's probably the best opportunity with a firearm in the west uh so that just wrapped up around mid-october i'm gonna say there's states that have it longer there's states that have it later but that's kind of the biggest is like southern Utah Colorado muzzleloader right now and that's gonna wrap up here the next

52:27couple weeks if it's not already wrapped up but that's uh that's a really good time for people me for rifle rifle normally starts around October 20th uh this year it's uh October 24th in Montana is when it opens and i just have that on my calendar here on my desk because that's where i'm going yep um so i'm playing what's date again you said while me i'm in Montana Montana Montana okay yeah sorry about that so Montana is gonna open for rifle mule deer on the 24th and then it's gonna run a long time i believe almost to the end of november but i have slotted the 23rd through the 29th for rifle now if you're gonna pick a week that's not the week i would pick like if you're committed and you want to shoot a big mule deer and that's your only job that's what you want to do this year i would get out there the 26th so it's not opening weekend but i'd get out there the 26th with the intent of scouting for three or four days pre-rut and then that first week in november is when you're really getting serious like that's when you're gonna harvest so i would take the last week of October and the first week in november off work and that's where i'd go

53:29do it if i had nothing else to do i didn't have kids and have a job yeah it was just big mule deer time you're gonna dirt bag it in your out of your truck or exactly like so that's so because i have a shout out so we just got a CEO about seven or c o o about seven months ago Bob Zemer from Bass Pro Cabellas and the cool part about that is you get some stuff from Cabellas yeah super discadrate but anyway so i have a 12 by 12 Cabellas brand wall tent that i've really just been using the crap out of since i got it because i could set it up i can have a cot i get my sleeping bag i got my little office and then i have a starlink where i can kind of work from anywhere as long as i am available from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. mountain time yep i'm good so i i'm fortunate in that that job where i can hunt in the morning hunting the evening as long as i am in a place where when i walk out of that tent i'm hunting i can have a really good time so that's my plan almost for i mean yeah i'm gonna leave Wednesday the seventh get back to 29th take the kids

54:32trick-or-treating and then i am heading back out friday the sixth of november and uh yeah around so i'm giving myself four days to white talon emisery but that's about it what um when it comes to like uh that time of year seems like october is it also october in Wyoming and october in when that those seasons kick off so uh it would be like late october early november for all three of those states that you rotate through yes now in general the farther south you get hey i i i i is in general in general the farther south you get the later the rut is going to is going to move to where you can have rutting deer in December and sometimes even early January in like southern areas on a southern new mexico like right along that that border where it's uh you're hunting the the desert deer it's different yep now colorado is kind of outlier for that because of the elevation colorado has so i've done a fair bit of hunting uh four or five seasons

55:34worth around steam steamboat springs colorado where i mean you're up you're camping at 10,000 feet you can climb higher you can go lower where they don't quite it doesn't match up with november and that's because unlike with white tails where you have the breeding hormones or whatever you got going on that makes them dumb in november like you have other aspects like you have winter which we already know we already talked about like it can be nine degrees one day and snowing the next that's that's going to affect like rut or no rut they got to eat like they got to figure out and they don't want to be standing in three feet of snow at 10,000 feet mule deer and then you also have migrations which is a other cool thing about mule deer is like they can move hundreds of miles in a season one way and then back where it's not uh you could be there the first week in november like the best rut week for whatever state you're in and if you're at the wrong elevation are just in the wrong place like you're still not going to see anything so it's it's a culmination of really those three main things is whether the migration timing for that year and whether they're in full rut or uh or not but in general some curve balls

56:42yeah some curve balls you got to think about that you don't have to think about you know when you're white tail hunting 100% and that's why i put um like i mean i'm going to spend a little over a month out of this tent in mule deer country this year yeah and uh the reason I do that is in the past i've done four day hunts five day hunts six day hunts and you can find success doing that but if i want to not living there if i want to find a truly mature representation of the species i'm four by four or bigger but four by four i don't want to put like a measurement on it not that i've anything against boon and cracker club or measurements or anything like that is that i want something outside the year which is really saying something with a mule deer buck because of big years, but if i really want to find that mature representation of the species it's going to take me more than those five days like you can get lucky but in in my mind like i'm going to put in three four five five and one not you are not the first

57:42guy to say that right okay so so this uh this podcast this episode is going to launch on the to launch on the Western rookie podcast. I figured that out now, right? Oh, good. So on this, that one of the last guys who's been on, he's just like, if you wanna do it right, like a guy can't come out here and just crush it. Some guys can, right? So I'm not saying it's, I'm not saying it to those guys. Some guys can go out and find success in four days. But he's like, if you're coming out here to kill an elk or a specific size of mule deer or you're looking for something of a certain caliber, it's gonna take you longer than two, a longer than one week to get the job done. He's like, you're just gonna be treading water for a couple days. What happens if the weather turns bad for a couple days? What happens if the road you need to access the piece that you've scouted gets wet and you can't make it up there now one. And he's like, you gotta dedicate two weeks on some of these bigger huts.

58:44Which I know like nobody wants to, before I started writing, which honestly, I didn't write seriously until COVID, just kind of as a fun side project and then maybe you're published the first thing I ever wrote and they had some editors over there that were just like really encouraging. Like, hey man, you might think about quitting your job. But anyway, before that, I worked in construction where I know nobody wants to hear you had to take two weeks off to get a big deer. So it can happen. You can get lucky, you can hire a guy to local person. Like if that's what you wanna do, then you really need somebody that's on the landscape, 365 days a year tracking those. But that's the other cool thing about Mulder is for those, like I mean, I already have all the stuff. I have a rightful that I trust. I have a bunch of dehydrated food, I have a backpack, I have optics. So like all that stuff aside, tag with 600 bucks and the gas to get out there is gonna be about 500. And that's about it, but that's my cost.

59:44Like I'm not paying a guy, I'm not paying to camp anywhere. Like I'm on public land. Like you can go do this for $1,100 and a week off work. If you really, if that's what you have, that's what you have. But if you can afford to do more, do more. Right. That's one of the things that really upsets, it doesn't really upset them, but kind of. Our sponsors is like, I like to, I love Citadel, the first light, like I think there's a ton of companies out there making really cool gear that makes life easier. But I was trying to remind our readers, like at the end of these articles, like man, your grandpa did this in a gray or tan flannel and jeans, like don't let cost prohibit you from going, join this resource that's out there. Yeah, exactly. You don't need it, right? Yeah. Did I used to be that guy who, like, dude, I have to spend the money on all this stuff. And then I, like, this is the perfect example. I spent some money on a pair of sick of pants once because I thought I needed some sick of pants.

1:00:46I walked right through the beggar's lice and white through the thorns and the stickers and they did not come off. There are so many of them, I could have probably stood them up in a corner by themselves. Right. And that was the last time I ever did something like that. Right. So I just, I don't know. I thought that was kind of funny. But no, it's, I mean, I spent, so one of the things I do on the side is I, I'm an army veteran. I was in for nine years and I, I still try and take veterans hunting because I think everybody benefits from time outdoors. But the military community, like, there's something to it. Like, everybody needs a little break and I think this is a really fun way to do it. Absolutely. But anyway, like, so I've taken close to 2000 veteran tonnings since I got out of the military. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, I do it. I did pretty, pretty seriously there for a while. I do it in a specific organization. Yes, this is the arm through the Armed Forces Initiative. Okay. And then a little bit through the falling outdoors. Like, there's a lot of really good ones out there. I don't want to, yeah. When I want to negate anybody like,

1:01:47whichever one's closest to you, you can have a good time with. But one of the things that I always used to hear and with, with just, I say this was a mild amount of, of insult is for the Navy and the Air Force veterans. Is there always like, oh, my toes are cold, my hands are cold, what can I buy? What are these gloves? Like, what kind of socks or boots? Like, what's gonna make this better? And like, there's a lot of cool stuff out there. Like the first sight glassing mitts and all kinds of really, really cool gear. But at a certain point, you just gotta accept your hands and your feet are gonna be cold. Yeah. You just like, you can't buy grit. You have to, certain things you just have to accept. Like it's doing that over the counter-caribou hunt a couple of years ago in Alaska. Really great time. But there was no point in the field where a part of me was not cold or wet or cold. Like that's just the way it's gonna go. You're gonna survive. Like you're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. Yeah. You just wanna be on hold. Put on your big boy pants. Exactly. Well, Trevor, man, really good conversation with you today.

1:02:47I really appreciate it. I need you to come back on after your hunts this year, after you put one in the dirt and we can have another conversation about what the earth and yield here we're doing. We talk a little strategy and things like this. But, man, thanks for taking time out of your data to do this, man. I really appreciate it. No, I appreciate you having me on. I know we tried to schedule this a few times. I had some technical problems. But, yeah, no, I appreciate you having me on. And if you're listening, please do send me an email with your hunting stories. Send me something wide-muel that you're important to you. Why the West is important to you. I'd love to publish it. And I'd love to pay you. I do have a budget. It's not charity. There you go. There you go. All right. Well, I tell you what, man, good luck this season. Also to anybody out there who's listening to the Western Rookie podcast. Do me a huge favor and go to Apple Podcasts. Go to Spotify wherever you download and listen to the Western Rookie podcast. Give us a five-star review. Leave a comment and let everybody know that this is entertaining and educational. I'd really appreciate it.

1:03:48Other than that, everybody be safe as we're traveling West to go hunt or whether you're climbing in a tree stand at home, be safe. And we'll talk to you next time. RUBERIC is the security and AI operations company. Built for what happens after an attack hits, not just the moments before. AI has turned the threat landscape into quicksand, moving too fast for any human to fully predict. That's why an agentic cyber resilience platform matters. Automated recovery, clean data, a business that keeps moving, no matter what hits. One platform, not a patchwork of stitched together tools and gaps. Don't wait for the next attack. Secure and accelerate your business at RUBERIC.com. Again, RUBERIC.com. Technology made banking easier, travel easier, shopping easier. Home insurance is still catching up. Kin is changing that. Smart technology that helps you find coverage fast and real people when you actually need them. Simple tools, faster help, no trade-offs. Home insurance that finally makes sense. Go to kin.com slash podcast.

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