Weekend Edition: A Brighter Take On AI

0:00Humanity has spent centuries in vending tools that extend our physical reach, the wheel, the steam engine, the microprocessor, artificial intelligence, however, is the first tool that extends our cognitive ability and isn't that a massive worry or is it a transformative opportunity? Well, let's talk to someone who's just spent a bit of time in Silicon Valley and seeing that question being asked by the very companies that are leading us down that path. What's his take? That's this week. Morning call from NAB with Phil Dovey. The weekend edition. So yes, Damien Webb is chief investment officer of Brighter Super. He's just returned from a trip to Silicon Valley meeting some of the big tech firms there, including the founders of Anthropic and he says the experiences left him more optimistic about the future. But before we get on to that, Damien, just tell us a bit about Brighter Super, first of all, what do you do? What differentiates you in the market? Well, hello Phil, it's absolutely a delight to be representing Brighter Super and to be

1:00on your podcast at a long time, long time listener. Look, I think Brighter Super, you know, it is differentiating the sense probably and it's got very, very deep Queensland routes. It's member owned and it has about more than $38 billion in asset standard management, about 340,000 members, but very much rooted in Queensland and a very, very strong Queensland membership. And does that mean, are you like most Super funds now having to look more and more overseas because there's obviously Super funds grow, there's sort of plateau, the investment opportunities domestically. So you have to look overseas. Is that happening to you? Yeah, look, I think that's fair. I think that the Super Animation system and noting I've been in the UK for the last three years, Phil, so I had a real treat to observe the regard for which the Australian Super Animation system is observed, particularly by my friends in the UK pension system. It's a $4 trillion system growing to $6 trillion. So yes, absolutely, the system is definitely looking to make sure it stays diversified globally.

2:00You know, we're more mid-sized funds, so we've still got lots of opportunity here in Australia but in small and mid-cap sized opportunities, but yeah, definitely, half our assets broadly overseas. And obviously, these, and we want to talk to you is because of that trip to Silicon Valley. So was it a bit of a learning curve? Did you go out with your eyes wide open? Did you have a preconceived idea about what AI was doing to society? And yeah, what were your takeouts? What did you discover? Yeah, it was very deliberate. So I had the benefit with the previous fund to lead their international operations from London. So I was loving, absolutely, a door in London and did all things European for the last three years. So on my return to Australia with my family, I thought we'll find next trip once it started up right away. But I definitely wanted to do my first port of course, to go and sort of like, I guess, enmesh myself and just sit and observe and steep in Silicon Valley and all things that are going on. The timing was pretty fortuitous because at the same time that I was there, there was all these conversations around AI and the existential threat to humanity.

3:03So it was quite fortuitous, but there was deliberate in the sense that I wanted to be there. And the main driver of it, still, was a shout out to my friends at Connectsist Financial. They run a very good event which sort of centers on Stanford University for fiduciary investors, other CIOs like me, and draws on some of the great minds in the area, whether it's companies or whether it's the academic thinkers. And so that's what led me to be there. But mainly was to sit and observe and just try and get a sense what's happening on the ground. So who did you meet? Yeah, yeah. So look, I think it was definitely a chance to meet with other fiduciary investors, other chief investment officers from other pension funds in the US. But probably the highlight was to meet with some of the founders from Anthropic who came and shared their time with us, which was obviously very illuminating. I also got to meet and tour some foundries for some of the quantum computing labs as well as some of the frontier AI labs that were over there and sort of start to sort of see nuts the people, but also some of the hardware, in a particular quantum computing side, which is fascinating.

4:04And also to spend time with some of the luminaries like Steyb and Cockkin, who is a thing you felt that whoever institution and one of my old, you know, my own shots, or black shells, he actually came along and gave us a presentation as well. And I studied all of his papers and undergraduate universities. So it was that sort of academic thinking, but also some of the hard application around technology. So the Anthopic founders, did you raise the question about, you know, are you going to destroy mankind? Because I mean, there's been rather alarming talk going on. And let's hope that doesn't happen. But it does raise that question about risk, doesn't it? Because the risk would be, if it is that dangerous, that we'll have to be regulation, and that is surely going to change profit outlooks. Yeah, yeah, look, I probably, I'll probably, I met with a range of AI frontier labs. It was, it was, it was absolutely, you know, a real, a real trait to hear from one of the founders of Anthropic and he was good enough to give us his time.

5:07So my comments are more general in nature. But yeah, look, I, we definitely have the opportunity to ask a range of, of, of investors and, and practitioners and company operators and founders in the AI frontier lab space about this particular point of concern. And look, the first thing I'd observe, Phil, is this, the range of outcomes is, is as wide as I've ever seen. So you heard from some who said, yes, there is a 10% chance, you know, I don't know how to get that number, but 10% chance that AI will wipe out humanity. That's probably on the downside, you'd classify. It's also quite high percentage, you have to say. It's relatively high percentage. And then on the other side, there's other saying, look, you know, there'll be optimist robots who will be mining the moon in 10 years time and serving you cocktails on the beach because we don't have to work anymore because robots are going to do everything. So there was this startling array of outcomes. And so there's a warning gap between the, the, the, you know, the upsides and the downsides. We did have the opportunity to put some of these questions directly to them and I will

6:07be honest with you, I think it was striking that they weren't necessarily directly addressed. So look, my observation, my observation is that I think that the safety issue is real and I think the safety issue doesn't look like it's going to necessarily be addressed. I think the motivators that are in place, whether it's, you know, founders wanting to IPO or, or create value or, or, you know, the key geopolitical actors in the US and China, they don't necessarily have much motivation to, to slow down or to, or to, to necessarily do risk the approach at this point in time. So, so I probably a bit more on the pessimistic side. There's going to be much change, but I definitely can't wait for the more optimistic about other parts of the ecosystem. Right. But I mean, okay, and I'd love to talk about that because let's be optimistic. Let's not be down on, on everything here. On that risk, I mean, how'd you price that in? How'd you factor that in when you're making investments, when you've got such a wide range of potential outcomes? How do you decide where you're going to put your money, or well, more specifically other

7:09people's money? Yeah. Look, it might be worthwhile just touching on the optimism side because I think that was actually probably probably the one on my key takeaway. So I, so I, so I did go there thinking, gosh, you know, you're either Wall Street Journal of Financial Times, you know, you listen to your podcast, you know, which is very informative and you hear about all the news and you can't help but think, gosh, this is sounding very negative. And so you definitely, you know, think of the downside scenarios and as a chief investment officer, you think, how can I, how can I hedge this risk? How can I mitigate this risk? I definitely came away having visited, you know, particularly some of the, you know, the hard hardware labs that are developing certain technologies for the future, thinking, yeah, and just a general optimism that there was in Silicon Valley, you know, and just the positivity. And again, some of the American, you know, can do this. I can't wait feeling far more optimistic about that this is, this is definitely, you know, a full technological revolution. And just make sure that you keep a weather eye on the opportunity set as well and making sure you trace that through from whether it's commodities and, you know, the need for,

8:11this is an insatiable need for more copper, for example, through to how this technology is going to help, you know, medical breakthroughs in drugs and those sorts of things. So I did come away actually feeling a bit more optimistic about that and making sure that I, I priced in the upside as well. But I can certainly start to talk to you about how I thought a bit about the portfolio as well. So yeah, because it, because actually the, the beneficiaries, obviously, are not just those providing AI. It's the other industries of which you just mentioned a couple there as well. So does that mean you say, well, okay, this, this, we should be looking more medical, and futures, for example, we should be looking at how we can invest more in industries which are going to benefit from this technology. Yeah, look, I think so. And I think your, your podcast is covered. I mean, you know, the GLP1 drugs, you know, the white lost drugs are going to be moving from, you know, injectable to, to, to be a pill. Next year, I think they're even going to go on the pharmaceutical benefit scheme. I know my time in Europe, the Germany was looking at making them, you know, mass available to the population.

9:12You know, it's still early days in these drugs, but they seem to have, you know, very significant, you know, medical upsides, not just in terms of white lost, but in terms of overall health. And they change their preferences from, you know, spending in the pubs to, to more spending on vitamins and skincare. And so, and people will likely live longer. And we also see some, some, some credible breakthroughs in cancer treatments that are coming through. Now, those are more down to, you know, the mapping of the NRNA, but you're also starting to see AI applied to these, these medical breakthroughs and how they can be individualized and how they can be sped up. So I think you are going to see just this exponential increase in, in probably some of the, the medical breakthroughs and the best thing before we start to talk about energy and fusion and those sorts of things. So I do think there, there will be some real positives to be had. And then there's also some, some, some, some major things to think through here. People are going to live longer. What, what does that mean, you know, even from my industry? It's a very powerful tablet, isn't it? If it takes an Aussie mail or even a UK mail to spend more on less time in the pub and

10:14more on skincare, I mean, that's, it's a major transition we're talking about there. Yeah, look, I, I heard I think that, that, you know, turn over in Scottish pubs recently has been down quite a long way. And I believe that's due to, the more people have been on these white lost drugs. But I mean, that does highlight, doesn't it, just that, I mean, the internet changed to great deal. So the pace of change from the internet we thought was fast and the impact it's had on, on the retail industry, for example, as Amazon grew, it feels like this is actually mean, means we're going to see a faster transition across a wider range of industries. And I just wonder as someone who's looking after investments, because it isn't just AI, is it? It's the, it's the whole economy that it, this could impact. And it could shake up so much. And so the risk is not just AI providers themselves. It's every single sector, good or bad, you know, upside risk and downside risk. How do we get a handle on that? Yeah, look, I think sometimes this can, you know, like as a human being, it can start to feel a little bit overwhelming, you know, when you think about it, and you read the,

11:17you know, the, the doom brism. And, but I do think it just comes back to, look, to speak about, you know, again, I, I referred to Maron Charles. So we had the benefit of him from Maron Charles and his views on volatility. And, and he was one of the key, the key proponents of, you know, the black shelf price in theory of our options. I was, as I said, it was a real academic thrill to hear from him and meet him. But I think, you know, it does come back to some of the basic principles that reassure me as a long term investor. You know, so some of the things have not still changed. So diversification, you know, we spoke about that. You know, the benefits of compounding long term investing and, and those things have not changed. So I think there's certainly other areas in which the technologies and AI start into, you know, you, you would question whether it's going to be helpful or, or, or, or attractive, for example, active management of stock portfolios, you know, that those have had a number of, of difficult years. Active management has struggled in the face of a number of things, you know, particularly the rise of the Magnificent Seven Technology Stocks in the States. Um, so I think there's lots of things to, to, to trace through there.

12:20Um, but I, I do think that you also need to just be, have a really broad view, not be startled in your thinking and, you know, have a whole portfolio of you around who will be the beneficiaries and, and, and who might be more impacted. So I know some people say, well, okay, it's too risky to invest in the AI players, plenty of upside potential. But maybe that horse is bolted. Maybe it's too late. We do know that they will need infrastructure. So let's invest in infrastructure and then we do know that there will be spin off benefits in, in a variety of industries. So is that the sort of approach that you're taking as well as that the way you do risk game? Look, I, I think for us that there is a number of ways you can play it. I mean, I still think that, you know, you, for example, you're seeing, you know, that two of the main, the main drivers of portfolio construction for a super innovation fund have been to expose your portfolio to, to the energy transition, as well as to the, the rise of digital infrastructure. You're actually starting to see those two big drivers converge at the moment. So investment in data centers, you now need to have an energy solution for that data

13:23center, you know, as the, as the, the insatiable need for compute and for associated energy comes together. So that is still alive. And certainly the infrastructure, a component of our portfolio was meaningful. And it had a still a great role to play. It also provided that inflation hedge, which again, switching out of AI for a moment, you know, which could be deflationary. You look at more geopolitical side, which probably hasn't actually changed. And that's still very, very relevant. It still suggests it's going to be sort of probably a higher inflationary world for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, So in my greenhouse garden and to give you as an infrastructure, necessary to do sustainability solutions,usteap, based on your vision, and you know, experimentation network is it's being available, innovating networks, already available to you,あー and courses, being big壓es of infrastructure, you know, have a small seagull to step towards. So in the right address, in the right address, Savior Param. So in the right address, our idea is, what do you do with your business? I don't care about the lines and the thought zero, I'm just going to tell you, then of the future. Because if we've got to change happening, I mean, all established companies

14:23might be the slowest to move, might they? So actually, we could see that the highest growth companies are the ones which are just sitting up now and taking advantage of all of this AI, perhaps without legacy systems or legacy ways of operating. Look, I actually think it's even broader than that. I think we look at commodities, right? So we saw that CBA and BHP had a bit of competition for who would be the leader on the ASX in the last year. And a lot of that, we saw the BHP result. It was really heavily driven by the rising copper. There's just not enough. There's an insatiable demand for the conductive capabilities of copper, whether it's electric vehicles, whether it's data sensors, whether it's just basically rewiring the grid. And there's just not enough new minds at the moment in copper. So I actually think having a, and then you can broaden that out. I think having a fresh look at what is your commodity exposure in the portfolio? We get a lot of it in Australia through our miners. But I think there's other ways you can look at it as well. Yes, there is obviously more of the sexy end-adventure capital and tech and hardware and those sorts of things.

15:24And even now increasingly, the areas like drones and defense. But there's also an opportunity for things like good old-fashioned commodities. And what does it all you need for that in your portfolio? So has any change since your, have you come back and thought, right, OK, we need to change our balance a little bit? What has been the take-outs from your trip? Well, the take-out for me was to be optimistic. I think I went in there with a desire to learn about the downsides and to try and price the downsides and to think about that. That's because you spend 70 years living in the UK. That's your birthday, your birthday and your train. I did. I think that was it. I did that. And I'm riding on the tube every morning. But I think that's true. And I think you also just a comment on some of the things you read in the moment as well. We can take our read from what is said and out of Washington. But you go to America and you're reminded it's 50 states. And what is happening with SpaceX desired to put rockets in Mars and what's going to happen next with the AGI or quantum computing or fusion energy

16:30or health? These companies are working away with a positive can-do attitude backed up by incredibly deeply robust capital markets. And I think they've got a strong view that they're going to drive the future. And so I think that is probably the moment. Take it away. It is to not necessarily get swayed by some of the talking points you see in other parts of the media cycle, but really to focus on what is happening on the ground and then how this speeds up and flat plays off each other. So the medical breakthroughs underwritten then by AI and an AGI. And then what does that mean then for the human experience aging? What does that mean for our portfolio construction? Because if people are going to live longer, they're still going to need to have investments that support them through that period in time. So it was really around, I think probably looking at the opportunity set and making sure you just map it through and probably make sure you drill down a couple of layers into how does actually feed through to the individual holdings you have. And again, are they set to benefit or are they set to maybe have some headwinds? Right. So when you're saying drilling down,

17:31I mean in two directions by the sounds of it, one is in terms of which are the industries that are going to benefit. So health care would be an obvious example. And on the other side, what's needed to make this happen? So you talked about energy, but what else has got to be there to supply these issues? The fixing shovels. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. The fixing shovels. There's often that design that when the gold rush you buy the fixing shovels, I think the similar thing for the process for this broader technological revolution, what are the areas that will benefit? Copper production, for example, the oil needs a lot of copper. And so how have you thought about that? That's necessarily that technological innovative. But there's lots of new worries to think about that. And another part of the portfolio, of course, you know, venture capital, private equity, infrastructure, as well as the individual companies themselves, you know, the magnificent sevens, three or other companies. Well, yeah, it's going to say, it sounds like you're not just talking about the picks and shovels, are you? So you're not shying away from the max seven,

18:32or whoever else comes along who might have high growth potential. It's just a question of balance for them. But you're not ignoring them. I mean, some people say, well, as I said, the horse is both, it's too big a risk. Let's just concentrate on those picks and shovels. But you're trying to balance that out. So you're still trying to get some of that growth. Look, I think for a superannuation fund like ours, and I'll talk about our context for a moment, the listed share markets are still a really critical part for us. So yeah, we definitely have to maintain a position on the share markets. And if you're going to do that, well, then you need to obviously have a position on these hyper-scales and the technology companies. And you know, you're still seeing the earnings come through. Now, I think probably the border question is what happens next. And I think we can talk about all this tech and all exciting stuff. But really, at the end of the day, what development, what have the biggest impact on long-term investing, that's pretty much going to be what happens in the bond market. So it's still coming back to that element. I also think, and we can talk about that. But I think also, geopolysics is still

19:34the way it's going to be, the competition between China and the USA. And then what it means for supply chains. And what it means to put forward construction, I think that we are seeing a world that is breaking up more into regional exposures, more country by country. You need to be much more mindful of your current exposures. So I do think there are also some other sides of it that is not just all rosy, but is also about how the political world order is continuing to evolve. So in that, was the nervousness in Silicon Valley about the fact that China seems to be able to develop stuff cheaper. They've got government backing, obviously. So they've got that pesky competition getting in the way, which normally is a good thing, but China seems to prove that sometimes it's not. And the fact that they are going down the open source roads whereas they're not as interested in making money as developers in Silicon Valley. Is that a concern? Yeah, look, I think that's a fascinating conversation. I heard from a lot of the thinkers. There was a lot of open admiration for the entrepreneurialism of the Chinese companies.

20:39And so I think the Americans have a particular in the Silicon Valley, and that associated ecosystem. I heard a lot of open admiration for how they can compete against the Chinese technology companies and their ability to innovate and the entrepreneurialism. Obviously, there's lots of back and forth around IP theft and those sorts of things. But I think you would have to say that they're doing a decent job of also innovation as well. And so I think that there is definitely still the game on between the US tech system and the Chinese tech system for global dominance. And I think that's why I sort of said to you at the start, in terms of AI safety and some kind of global agreement. I think the odds of that seem pretty low to me that there is going to be a race for winner takes all. Oh, which increases that 10% chance of the end of humanity. I'd like to see a bit more regulation to get that percentage down. But anyway, as you say, and as Donald Trump has said, it is a race with China, so we don't want

21:40to regulate ourselves to the point where they're not doing it. So you can understand that philosophy. You talked about bonds. So the bond market's interesting, isn't it? Because these competition, this is an unusual time. And there's a competition for bonds between people by government bonds and also seeing an opportunity now for investment in the tech race, which they're seeing as still riskier than buying government bonds, but not much. And so some of those purchase of government bonds are clearly going out into the tech sector now as well, which is why we're seeing bond yields going up a little bit, I think. Do you think that's the interplay between the two? And how does that affect your portfolio? Yeah, look, I think there's lots to talk about. There are, you know, at the end of the day, if you said to me, what's the number one thing you're thinking about reflecting on, you know, it's not necessarily tech that much. It's a bond market. It's still a bond market. You know, and again, I'd like to point to that that quite this often used a lot from, you know, this James Carville, you know,

22:40the Rage and Cage who advised Bill Clinton. And he's quite, I think in the early 90s was, you know, if I could be re-incarnated, I'd want to come back as a bond market. So he could intimidate anyone. I think it's the truth. The bond market is a center of it all right now. And there's lots of interplay there as you highlighted. I think that what we haven't seen before as investors is the tech companies start to increase their leverage. And they are definitely, definitely crowding out the marginal investor in government bonds because I think on the margin, you know, the not so much, you know, other sovereign banks, but pension funds, hedge funds, other, other, you know, investors who have optionality are looking at the opportunity said and are probably referencing, you know, an investor and say, for example, you know, the Google bonds. I know that some of the tech companies had kangaroo bonds here recently that seemed to be very well, very well subscribed to. And probably less, less interested potentially in some of the government bonds given that they're learning fiscal issues that are there. And, you know, that's all one subcomponentry.

23:43But probably the main componentry, which is back to your point there, which is we are observing incredible earnings. And, you know, I think you could might, you know, that you could have a debate whether we're in a bubble, but certainly you're observing the, you know, earnings being above long-term averages. But the one thing, the one thing that the tends to provide a stop to any bubble, of any sort, is a concerted rise in interest rates. And we are seeing that again now globally. So I think that is definitely something, you know, not just central banks, but also the continued rise in bond market rates as something that is definitely going to be something that has to be reckoned with by all sectors, including, you know, the tech market. So is it a bubble or is it part of a long-term trend? So if tech is making good money because it is getting rid of jobs and doing jobs better, then we, does that mean we have a higher and employment rate? Does that mean, therefore, we have to rely more on welfare? So we had Elon Musk, you know, a few months ago talking about having a, not a universal basic income, but a universal high income.

24:45But who's going to pay for that? Because if it's, if they're not paying for it, these companies are allowed to keep on claiming their profits and investors are following them down that road, then all of that rests on the government more. And if the government is having to pay out more, then obviously we're going to get more worried about government debt and government bond yields are going to get higher. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's not, that doesn't seem like a cyclical thing. That seems like a paradigm shift. No, and I think this is one of those things that's going to need more time. So, so we had a very interesting presentation from Bridgewater when we were in over there in Stanford. And they highlighted that, you know, in the surveys that they've conducted that, you know, it's only, I think maybe two to four percent of, you know, the S&P, 1,500 companies, so quite a broad survey of US companies. Only about two to four percent are saying they're having transformative change from their internal AI programs. So I think that there is obviously the promise, there is still the, you know, the view that this is going to be, you know, very, very meaningful. But then again, on the ground, inside companies, you are not necessarily seeing, you know,

25:46mass changes or mass, and maybe data's not being measured the right way. So I think that that point I started with, feel that there is a very broad, a range array of outcomes here still. And the path is not entirely certain. But certainly, I mean, a my point here was, do you do need to absolutely still manage the risk in the portfolio? There's some tight and trusted techniques, you know, diversification, quality. But you also need to not necessarily get overly, overly, overly afraid and absolutely to look for the opportunities that are going to be presented by this, this, this, you know, this revolution. And this revolution, the speed of change, I mean, you're saying we're not seeing it just yet in companies, but it may be measurement, it may be just things that, because this is all very, very new, it may be just things are starting to happen. And over the next two years, we might see a major change in the way companies are. Yeah, I think that's fair. And so how do we gauge that? I mean, do you think we are through a couple of, a few years of turmoil? I mean, it could be positive turmoil, of course,

26:46it doesn't have to be bad. What's the time scale you're looking at in all this? Look, it's not abundantly clear. I think, you know, it's not very heroic to say. I think we'll know a lot more in the next few years. So around what has happened, I think that the real improvements in the models that I observe in my daily use and in my corporate applications, you know, you are able to do things now. Oh, you know, if I want to go and produce a PowerPoint presentation that was really useful and well put together, you know, it was more slop-like, you know, six months ago. Whereas now, the models are getting very, very good. So I definitely think that the speed of the models going up and getting out is going very well. Meta released an app recently that apparently is quite useful around how you use the agent side of these sorts of things. So look, I think it will speed up. But ultimately, you know, I'm not entirely sure Phil, I think that where just watching it, like a lot of others, my intention was to go there and just try and get the pulse of what's happening on the ground. And as I say, I think we'll have to just watch the data

27:47and be prudent in how we manage the portfolios as the information comes through. But in your mind, are you thinking, well, there's big growth opportunities here, therefore, secretly, I mean, you may not state it quite so fully that you think there's an upside to growth potential. So you could potentially be giving higher returns to your members or are you balancing risk at the moment? What's your mind search? I think the risk is cutie upside. I think it will be volatile. I think there will be fits and starts. I think that the progression, you know, is never linear that there will be, and we're seeing, as is the case, you know, with the tech bubble and with the railroads and any other industrial revolution previously, there will be winners, there will be losers. It is not abundantly clear who will prevail and who will not. But you can also see that there is a desire there for a winner and takes all approach. And hence why these groups are going all out to that. And so, of course, not every dollar invested

28:48is going to earn a reasonable rate of return. That's obviously why the market is wrestling with this concept, but you still see the earnings come through positively in aggregate, and you're saying that the earnings brought in and not too badly, particularly the S&P for the last year. So I think putting that all together, yes, my sense, my sense, this is my first sense, is that the views are skewed a bit more to the upside, and you should be alive to this super cycle. And what it means from commodities through to your venture capital, probably. And if you're looking for warning signs, things that might say, well, the future's not going to be quite as bright as we thought it was going to be, what would they be? We're talking about one of them, I mean, government bond yields. So there are other things that you're keeping an eye on and saying, well, that could be an indicator of where the future's heading. Look, I think it's the bond market. It's the name on to this point in time. And as always, it's earnings coming through. There's a bit of key things that the way we're watching to give us the sense for how it's all progressing, as well as obviously listening to those that are informed and can advise us on the risks

29:49as we go through on the company side, on the technology side. Hence why it's important to go there and observe it, face to face and meet with the founders and get their sense. And as I said, the sense that I got was that there was this calm confidence and optimism that we'll see our way through. Yeah, well, let's hope they're right. Finally, then, you know, you're an Australian male. So you love gadgets, rules, you know, fundamentally geeks at heart. So is there anything you looked at while you were there and thought, to that's neat? I did take a drive in a Waymo car. I thought that was pretty cool. So Waymo was a driverless car. Now I was a little bit of a chicken. I didn't go for a long drive. It was basically, you know, you download the app, you know, I was in San Francisco, so you know, driverless cars are a thing there. And so I downloaded the Waymo app and I jumped in one, I ordered it. It was absolutely seamless. Now I did just go for relatively today drive between Stanford faculty and my hotel. So it wasn't that big a deal. But at one point, it did accelerate into traffic and cut through a few lanes. And I did sort of, you know, have a bit of a, you know,

30:50deeper grip of the seats, but it was incredible. I think that was quite an impressive experience. And, you know, I think they started and introduced the now to London Phil, which will be fascinating. So I think that was that was fascinating and that will continue to have that. So, yeah, obviously, modifications needed before we introduced them into traffic in Australia, particularly Sydney, because they have to change lanes without signalling. That's going to be, yeah. That's the first fundamental definition of driving. That's right. That is the main, that is the main to gripe of almost the decided as we just, we choose not to indicate. Right. Well, okay. So the message from Brighter Super is, it's a brighter future. And that's the attitude to take into it. We're definitely trying to be, definitely trying to be, to be, to be positive and lean into it. And I think, you know, I think we were certainly a, a, a weather on the risk side of it and the downsides. But ultimately, you know, that I think, you know, I would rather be, you know, be, be more over engaged and, and, and, and have lent into the opportunity style than to be dismissive and have set it out. We know we've seen what's happened in terms of, you know,

31:52the magnificent seven the last few years and the, and the huge impact that's had on overall returns. You know, I think it's important to, to, to, to be balanced in the approach, for sure. There we are. You put me to shame. I'm going to have to be more positive in the morning call for now. I never, whenever we're talking about tech. Good, good to talk. Okay, we'll catch you again soon, Damien. Thanks. Thanks for, thanks very much. You've got to get on the bus. How many of you basically? It's along as the bus is going where you want it to go. And that's it for the weekend edition. I'm back on Monday morning, of course. And we've got another weekend edition next Friday as well. I'm Phil Dobby for NAB. Thanks for listening. The weekend edition.