We Investigated the Christian "Scam" Fronted by Tim Tebow

0:00Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre and today we're going to find out what this sound is My conscience is getting the best of me and are you still not having much more like you? Like you do what I do right after this But you didn't just say how can I provide these investments? You'd be how do I realistically provide everything how they're bringing the legal the accounting all this and do it at a price point No one else is doing it learn more about how we approach wealth management at creative planning dot com slash Integrated the kids really love that playhouse, huh? Yeah, it's not just a child's playhouse. It's a rental property kids off-carries roof Someone lives in there lives works and thrives your wife. I reaches all the way to the playhouse We're good ghillie nairs. It reaches everywhere. Can I check it out? Sorry book solid But the treehouse just opened up live without limits get home internet from AT&T and cover your whole house even your playhouse turned rental property AT&T extended Wi-Fi coverage service required limited availability visit at t.com forward slash internet to learn more

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2:07Learn more at parlowa.com That's P-A-R-L-O-A.com Unhold your customers with parlowa Kira Butler, thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here To what extent are you familiar with Tim Tibo outside of the last um many months you spent like zero. Oh, I love this I love you. I love it because Tim Tibo is so central to my experience as a sports fan and as a talking head Mm-hmm. He was like this avatar for not just Whoa, what a gritty Plucky American hero he was an avatar of Jesus Christ It's sort of the essence of Christianity so I tell when people say hey, what's that verse? They look at this one I haven't boarded verbatim right now for God's love the world that he gives only be gone son

3:10The who's forever bleeds and him will not perish but have everlasting life I Had to have my husband explain this to me my husband is a big sports fan and so he told me all about Tim Tibo and kind of the the lore of Tim Tibo You'll never seen any player in the entire country Play hard as I will play the rest of the season and you never see someone push the rest of the team as hard as I will push everybody the rest of the season You never see a team play harder than we will the rest of the season God bless It's extensive he was argued about is he really as good as he was in college? Could he be that good in the pros? He seems clutch you want to talk about clutch gene? Let's talk about huge clutch gene He's also Tibo-ing which was like a thing of this meme Even before Sunday we knew Tibo was big with fans making customized Jesus jerseys and posting pictures of themselves online Tiboing imitating Tibo's signature on field prayer position

4:12At the Tim Tio Foundation we believe together with you our partners and law enforcement We can defend the vulnerable in his post playing life. He's been a public figure who is Not just really comfortable behind a microphone on television and he works for ESPN and is all over their programming He's become something of An American hero in terms of how he talks about his desire to protect the most vulnerable People among us Disrupted a man our strategy Bold and nationwide ecosystem that attacks of trafficking Stay by state from every angle He's done a ton of work on anti-trafficking in the past few years He has this wife who is also involved in his charitable work beautiful family, you know the whole package But the place where I really started to marvel at his powers of persuasion and his capacity for empathy was when he was testifying quite literally before Congress

5:14There's a red dot map right over there over my Right shoulder and that's just a six-month screenshot of the US and every red dot that is on there is Someone that is downloading sharing or distributing images almost all under the age of 12 and there's over 330 of them just in that six-month screenshot The scale of harm right here in America It's to a certain extent Hard to comprehend but that's why we're here. I just got to say like even if you don't have a religious bone in your body and I happen to be a guy who is Ancestrally and quite empirically Catholic All the sacrabets all that stuff altar server grown up etc etc Even if you have none of that religiosity Tim Tebow presents as arguably I don't know the most trusted figure in sports right now based on what he's willing to say and do in front of audiences like

6:17Congress and it's not just what he's saying It's that he's so clearly genuine about it. I mean he sounds like he's getting choked up But that religiosity I should be clear. This is where it enters your wheelhouse That's right. Yeah, I have been for the last few years reporting a lot on Christian nationalism which is separate from what we're talking about today But I'm not a religious person and it has given me quite an education in the influence of Christianity on politics And so I don't know if you expected to spend as much time as you have delving into the Let's call it fanaticism of sports But in this entity that we're here to examine that you've been immersing yourself in for the last several months that I have been curious about for Even longer than that somehow You discover that there is an entity That is as central to Tim Tebow's public life as any of the stuff that we've mentioned If you actually take a second to examining what and how

7:19He's talking in his free time You know, I will look at the definition for search a sudden and great increase and actually it comes from the 16th century Latin word To rise up or to spring up, you know, I get so excited When I think about a group of thousands of people that are ready to rise up to spring up to have a great increase Because when you increase God will increase So this is life surge it is a motivational speaker series and it's distinguishing characteristic is that it is Christian I'm showing myself president of life surge. This is not just a conference. It is an experience Speakers that are celebrity athletes and other kinds of celebrities too comedians musicians other kinds of entertainers and all of them are imparting a message of Christianity of faith Powerful worship real world wisdom and transformational breakthroughs that can ignite something inside of you You'll laugh you'll be inspired you may even shed a tear

8:20This is the day that could change the trajectory of your future be here be ready be ready for God to move I can't wait to see you at life surge God bless you Surge your life God's way is the sort of subhead of that final frame And that's right. Yeah, there's a lot of surging. I mean, this is a thing that travels around the country doing one day events That's how most people encounter life surges through these one day events and it's actually a really good deal For 30 bucks you get a jam packed day of motivational speakers I'm imagining a mixture of like a conference, but also a comedy show, but also a music festival in which like the main act is Apparently Tim Tibo. I guess in addition to all of that I'd also throw in like Pentecostal charismatic kind of church service, you know imagine Before you see Tim Tibo and maybe even wall you see Tim Tibo. You're like, you know standing up and shouting amen

9:23And it sounds like Tim Tibo Is echoing that call because I believe God wants To use our lives. That's why we're here To know him to know he's playing and to live out the purpose he has for our lives And this is where I am a little embarrassed to admit how much time I've now spent watching Tim Tibo preach And I'm not embarrassed because the theme is Godliness and salvation of embarrassed because There is so much of it and He's really fucking good at it Yeah, I mean he is such a talented speaker just in general But then when you add in this very kind of heartfelt and again very genuine faith to the mix You just have this incredibly dynamic speaker Who is able to kind of capture that like revival church energy and just really run with it If you haven't seen Tim Tibo, he looks like a drawing a child drawing of a superhero

10:28Like jacked barrel chested almost aerodynamic in his haircut And he's out there with tight close and he is Perhaps understanding that conception Talking about how you know what football actually isn't that important Yeah, not only is his message that football isn't that important It's also a message of humility about himself Yes And maybe when we leave here you won't just have have heard some different speakers and some great speakers and then one random guy that got cut a bunch of times from the NFL It's not that funny And he tells these like hilarious self-deprecating stories and he just you have to love him Some of you may know me from sports, but honestly more of you probably know me from getting cut from a bunch of sports teams As Miss Dean mentioned earlier, so thanks Miss Dean We can talk about that later. It's all good And by the way, it's just really rare to get a die hard football person to put

11:34The insignificance of sports in perspective it almost felt radical when you watch the game film and it's Tim Tibo on stage in Columbus, Ohio at a life surge event This is May 2025 and he says this prizes And then how much of my life has that been me? I just wanted to play a silly game And it's what I'm also referring to football a little bit as well And by the way It's just literally taking the fake-pick skin to putting inside a rectangle inside another rectangle while these chase you I mean he's speaking to you you're saying I know you don't care about football cure a bother But you don't need to to listen to the message that I have to say he is simultaneously reaching people who only know him for football and telling them Hey, there's more to life than just you know this game that I'm really good at he sounds like

12:36A leftist commenter Fake-pick skin inside a rectangle inside another rectangle while dudes chase you is Tim Tibo basically saying sports ball Yeah, it's jarring it's jarring to see him be so seemingly Self-aware very self-aware and Very willing to kind of step outside his own realm of experience and Give you the big picture view and so I want to actually take Tim Tibo at his word Let's move the football aside for a second. I want to know about his stats with life search This entity that you speaking at how long has he been doing this? So the company started in 2020 and he has been Speaking at events at least since July 2021 by our count 10 events in 2024 another 10 events in 2025 This year he is on track to have spoken at 23 events by the end of the year In other words way more than the number of

13:38NFL games and a given season and And this is why I think of him as the face of life search when we really want to take that next step and searching life God's way I have to start by saying We serve a god that's in control We serve a god that is sovereign we serve a god that is loving we serve a god that is all knowing We serve the god is wise and we can trust him why because his character is trustworthy And I should be clear that Tim Tibo the face the the quarterback of this team perhaps He's not alone and and I mean that even beyond the The Willie Robertsons of the world the duck dynasty guy he pops out there a lot of other bold face names Which we'll encounter in our tour of this organization It's so many athletes Kira so many and they're so famous. There's Joe Montana magic Johnson Derrick car Marcus Marriota and so many Philadelphia Eagles. Yeah, in this one event. It's Seiko on Barclay

14:39It's Cooper DeGene. It's Brandon Graham. It's Nick Seriani Michael Strayhan Nick Foles David Ortiz Russell Wilson is there former Olympic gymnast Dominique Dawes Jerome Betis Darrell Strabbery and by the way that is just since the beginning of 2025 By the way, it includes former ESPN commentator sage steel who in 2026 alone did at least ten of these events Hi everybody it's sage steel and I am so excited to be heading to Atlanta for life surge on saturday may 30th It's a one day event. It is going to be life changing Thousands of believers come together to grow in faith to learn how to And multiply their god-given resources and to make a lasting impact for the kingdom I cannot wait to do it so many of you This is where we should disclose that a big part of the fascination that both of us have had around life surge once We start wondering what is this national roadshow

15:39The thing that stuck out to us that did not take that long to locate on the internet are the complaints There is an entire Facebook page that is called life surge complaints that has I think 1300 followers better business bureau complaints Read it of course there's a whole thread about this titled is life surge Christian conference a scam question mark with dozens of comments There are YouTube videos and it is hard to dismiss something like this when there are so many people Saying the same thing and this does not mean that case closed Kira we've done our work. We we googled it and we're done wouldn't that be nice what we did instead was not only locate The positive reviews because life surge as an entity on google Also has 4.8 stars with over 3000 reviews, but what I wanted to find out was Mostly what you would find out if you agreed to actually go to one of these things and go I did

16:57If you're into the kind of deep dive investigations that we happen to do on this show I have another podcast that I think you'll really like and it is called paper trail It's from the newsroom at probe hublica Which is the nonprofit investigative journalism organization that just like me tries to be there when people empower abuse your money your time Your trust The reporters dig deep into stories that have real consequences and on this podcast you get to follow along as they uncover some truly unbelievable things For instance, they investigated the companies that make generic medications Talking about the off brand pills and prescriptions that so many of us buy to save a little money And what they're reporting found is that some of those drugs were being manufactured in Dangerous dirty conditions at the FDA knew about serious problems and did not stop them

17:57These are medications that millions of people rely on every day And so the stories on paper trail aren't just fascinating They matter the show focuses on things that affect you and your family and people you know But if you're concerned that you'll walk away sad and angry I assure you do not worry It is an all doom and gloom just like on ptfo. They report on a lot of topics and a lot of the time Things change as a result their investigations have led to new laws to innocent people being freed from prison And powerful institutions being held accountable. So again, if you want more deep dive investigations I cannot recommend this enough Check out paper trail on Apple podcasts or Spotify And start listening today Support for today's episode comes from square the system powering like apparently half the places I go If you ever tap to pay and thought That was fast It was probably square whether you're selling lattes cutting hair running a packed game day spot or managing a design studio

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22:11No one else is doing it learn more about how we approach wealth management at creative planning.com slash integrated What was it like to go to a life search event could you paint the picture of what it is and what you walked into Yeah, so I mean I had to get up reasonably early in the morning because life search started bright and early before 8 a.m Whoa I got in my car and I drove to an arena in a suburb of Atlanta where you live where I live and It was an enormous crowd. I mean I don't have the exact statistics But it was somewhere in the neighborhood of I would say three to five thousand Everybody kind of took their seat and the program actually began with worship music And in that way it felt a lot like church people were standing up on their feet They're swaying back and forth. There were some amends some hellelujahs some thank you gods

23:12I should say that the uh the big face in the center of this poster is Tim Tibo on the right I mean Pont intended is sage steel This was a 10 hour event we were there until the evening There were comedians like Jeff Foxworthy and it was really one speaker after another And so just to explain How life search was born and what it is that they do From the moment of conception as it were How do you explain this? So life search is founded in 2020 by a guy named Joe Johnson. I think people are very hungry for truth You know, we're a faith-based event and we are very clear about it People just really want to know more about god. They want to see how does that connect with their life with purpose He's a real estate entrepreneur. He's from Florida And he's been involved in a bunch of other companies before and um here on twitter and

24:14Is twitter bio gives a clue as to what is distinguishing about this program? Yeah, the life search twitter account the bio says one day events to equip you in business investing and purpose God's way and so 30 events a year on average 5,000 people on average per event the website clarifies that this is a one day life changing event where thousands of local Christians gather to learn Why and how to create and multiply financial resources for kingdom Impact is kingdom impact a phrase you had heard before I'd probably heard variations on it But I heard it so many times during my 10 hours at life search How do they define what kingdom impact is so when they're talking about kingdom impact They like to call it the four w's worship wisdom work and wealth And when you listen it turns out to the president of life surge who works for joe johnson is the guy named Sean Marcel

25:17He is very proud of this premise. So worship you know elis is connected to the heart of god So having people there that can really speak to that subject matter work Marketplace and people who are great business people in that space and understand leadership and uh How to grow and scale businesses and the the the investment markets and all these different types of things But how do I live out my faith in that space and of course The subject of wealth because we believe that many times the church is skittish about talking about resources I don't know why that is when when so much of the mission of the church requires resources but many times christians don't want to have a conversation about money And and and and and worship in the same context we completely disagree with that we believe it is and I should point out that prosperity gospel preachers are a Well-worn archetype in american life cure. I'm I've seen the righteous gemstones Yes, this is a thing, but this is not quite that is what I'm learning

26:22Well, and it's interesting because Many times during the day that I spent at life search the speakers explicitly said this is not prosperity gospel And they went on to say like there's no easy button right that if you want to Make your kingdom impact you really have to put in the work and you have to do it do it gods way And that way is financial training That's the part that begins to blow my mind already which is this is not a matter of like you give us money We send you to heaven This is we need you to learn The tools of capitalism and Joe Johnson the guy who founded life surge makes that point most people think of life surge as this one day event But really that's just the beginning of the journey for many people Because we show people Why you should live what we call how to surge your life gods way right people are launching businesses people are getting out of debt People are learning how to become investors so they can buy more time

27:23So this is seemingly designed for people who are not just seeking salvation in the afterlife But freedom from debt in the present like these are vulnerable Americans who are Being told this is the way that you can get yourself out of your financial problems Right now For example, I talked to one guy who attended one of these events in St. Louis in 2023 his name is John Simmons So my name is John Simmons. I'm the founder of a ministry called testimony house out of St. Louis, Missouri He is actually a minister himself He runs a Christian learning center on YouTube and he was really open about why he wanted to learn more about managing finances I have a history of sports betting addiction lost half million dollars playing poker and betting on sports Before I got saved and born again And so I went to this conference with the hopes of like learning how to manage money better than I have in the past But when I was there when I started the entry speakers who were not part of the advertisements

28:25Is when a sinking feeling in my stomach started to stir up as they who are these other speakers that John Simmons there in particular is referring to and what are they talking about They're basically there to make a sales pitch and what they're selling is a three-day class that's gonna happen a few weeks after the event And it's called the impact class or the impact course And Who's the guy trying to get these people like John Simmons to buy the impact class It's a guy named Steve Tampa Steve Tampa is at virtually every event and John Simmons remembers him well Champ came out and spoke on Stock markets, I believe we're like why is this guy been talking for an hour? Who is this guy? And then we made the decision we were gonna honor God first We decided you know what would rather have 90% of our income have God mixed it with our finances Then a heart percent of income without it mixed in His job is to show you how easy it's gonna be to use their patented method of stock market investments

29:32And then he's getting people getting volunteers from the audience to come up on stage And he's saying this is gonna be so easy for these folks to make money You know when the arrow goes up They're gonna say bye when the arrow goes down. They're gonna say sell So the gets to our evangelist and nothing to buy. No gets it ready. We're gonna Uh-huh. Bye right there. Bye to land now. If I shoot you up, there should be more bars of sellancy right? Let's watch it when the sales supply and So you made our money He picks three volunteers from the audience You know the whole audience is like invested in the success of these people in this demonstration We're all yelling by when the arrow says the right thing. We're all yelling sell And then at the end he says wow these these people made like more than $60,000 or they would have made it if this were a real thing And he says because they did such a good job We're gonna give them these three days of impact classes for free And then comes the next part of the pitch right which is For the rest of you guys in the audience if you sign up right now

30:34We've got a special deal for you. You get three days of impact classes for the low low price of 97 dollars Look on your screen right now. They've got like a screen on fire And it's like their price says 200 and he goes now. We're gonna offer you this class for $100 and poof The fire blows up and now it says 99 is like you got to sign up But you got to do it right now you got to do it right now because god wants you to go out there and build kingdom wealth Now we're gonna get more and John's memory of Steve-Champa or champ is very similar to what I witnessed Steve-Champa doing when I was at the Atlanta event Oh, man, Joe Chulac and the founder of LightShare said we have to make this accessible and affordable that everybody Said you really want to make a king of impact here in Atlanta, which is why I'm here. This is my hometown I'm gonna help him we have to we have a true should cost be a baritain event you Okay The other thing is that you're encouraged to sign up right then and there because you're told the venue that they do these classes at is small

31:35But because it's such limited venue size, you don't take advantage of it. You need to do it now You need to do it wait the length of it Like that The call and response urgency is palpable. They've got tables set up guys with clipboards coming around If you sign up now, you'll get this special deal And it'll all be great our volunteers are here right now And you can see along the side of this sanctuary Everybody's got black shirts on black t-shirts. They all got the square readers And they say all right. We're up in front. So all you have to do to sign up for this special class is just get out of your seat Take a step of faith and walk towards the front and sign up for this class And this class is gonna change your life and the life of everybody that you believe in and it's just all of their heart-strain Energy is put into this one moment So the people start pulling out their credit cards. There's a line. They have to form a line in the aisles And walk down like This is where we should probably point out that the stock market class is just one type of

32:37Coursework That's right. There's also a real estate class and I think the deal is that they ended up making That for the $97 you get to attend both the stock market investment impact classes and the real estate ones And as I was looking around at my seat mates I could see people kind of like looking at the people who they came with and you know kind of saying should we do this like Are we gonna go up there? The urgency the deal that they're being presented. This isn't that expensive If you're interested in changing your whole life Yeah, I mean, it's all Leading up to this point of am I going to Give my $97 and get these classes will I open my heart and My wallet So one person I spoke to was this current life surge employee who's a member of the road crew Which means that their role was to travel around the country to all the different venues and events and help with the setup

33:40Yes That's the goal of like there is to get people signed up for These classes to get them to the impact classes so they can upsell them down the road There's no sincerity behind it. It's like a Broadway musical Broadway play because everything is so You know staged and scheduled a sprinkle a little bit of Jesus in there to get people Thinking yeah, maybe this is a good thing to sign up for these classes You know for the benefit of God's kingdom. I can make money in the stock market and you know flipping houses in the real estate market And I can Sponsored people to go on mission trips and you know didn't well in Africa They really pull on your heartstrings So my question here is what kind of Warning what kind of labeling around the risks involved It is life surge applying to what is increasingly sounding like a thing That raises a thousand questions. Yeah, so there are disclaimers

34:45They're kind of flashed on to the big screens behind the speakers periodically. Yes, we're showing a photograph This is thanks to the rooster the excellent independent news outlet This is a big-ass paragraph. I should say they cycle through these pretty quickly So like I was trying to take pictures with my phone Any income or earnings shared examples are not intended to represent typical or guarantee results for the average customer These figures are estimates of potential earnings and may not reflect your actual experience There's no assurance that your income or earnings will match the examples presented results very widely And you should assume that the average person may earn little to no money You're potentially lose money as all business ventures involved inherent work and risk the individuals featured Have participated in training programs such as life surge impact workshops or third party fulfillment at their own expense They were not compensated for sharing their beliefs period Which is certainly easy to track and not at all intended to do anything but make very clear What the risks are They have signs up about results may vary You know just informing people that what you see on stage is not

35:47typical They're running the people But I think if you have to warn somebody and use Religion it just doesn't go in my eyes It is notable that we've spent a lot of time talking about champ Steve champa When does Tim Tibo show up so when among hour one to ten when does he I mean hour nine and a half Like you had to sit there for the whole day It is like going to Coachella and being like is arcade fire coming out It very much felt like that and actually You can tell Who signed up for the impact classes because they're given like a little freebie packet and by the time Tim Tibo Strowed out onto that stage I would say most of the like the vast majority of people in my section had the little freebie packets Yeah, these are apparently the people who are all in on kingdom wealth I was sitting next to a very sweet woman who was like I really want to see Tim Tibo

36:51I can't handle this And she even like she signed up for the impact classes I think she ended up sticking around but she was considering leaving and that feels like the point Let's leave Tim Tibo for the very end you'll need to sit through all of this And when he comes out in all of his glory The payoff as it were is Is now kind of familiar when I think about a group of thousands of people that are ready to rise up to Bring up to have a great increase Because when you increase God will increase Because hopefully the reason you're here is not just about the The examples of all the ways to make money, but it's how to use that money It's how to use that platform. It's how to make an impact So one day we're not successful in all the wrong things because I believe one of the greatest forms of tragedy Is to be successful in everything that doesn't matter I am curious now about the holdouts though about the people who don't sign up for the impact classes despite all this Like myself and it sounds like they knew that. Oh, yeah, they clocked it

37:55They were sending me emails for weeks afterwards offering me an opportunity to change my mind This is an email from life surge the big headline is impact classes sent to you in June of this year Hi Kira faith without action is just an idea but faith in action changes lives There's a countdown clock until our last in-person class that was leading up to july It offers that you can bring a guest for free A transformative journey is available for you It sounds like they really wanted to have you quote step into your calling Right despite the fact that the venue allegedly was very small and Everybody else had to rush to the tables to sign up at the event So just when you sign up for this stuff and the price you had mentioned before we're talking 97 or so dollars for a three-day course in stock market stuff and real estate strategy How do they make money off of this if that's the price point that sounds like not a great business model if you're life surge

39:01Right, I mean that's the big question. I did talk to someone who paid the 97 dollars for herself and her husband to attend one of these training courses And she actually did the real estate one she didn't do the stock market one So her name's Karen Neil why don't you say your name say where you live Okay, it's Karen Neil and I live in Indianapolis, Indiana she's 61 years old She lives in Indianapolis and her husband is a firefighter You know, we went to the classes and they were just really They were they were kind of a hard sell we were approached by a Mentor as they call them that came up and he started talking to us and you know, they get to kind of know you They started want to know your backstory. Why are you here? they really really pushed the um the whole aspect of oh, you know, you you want to get into this this is really important and we were really interested But then they threw out the brochure that showed that in order to

40:06Get the classes you had to pay a pretty expensive fee I've been told that at the impact classes they will give you Literature like a brochure and they will explain that there are different tiers of financial training courses that you can sign up for I've been told that the lowest tier ranges from like maybe 10,000 to 13,000 dollars There's a middle tier that's like maybe 20, 25,000 wait wait just just the pausier versus like and We've gone from 97 bucks to now Retirement funds and the highest tier is like 40,000 to even 50,000 dollars for like one-on-one mentorship I was pretty hesitant. I was like we don't you know, we don't have the money to do this they brought in an outside like I guess a loan company or a company that would find credit cards for you to Use a credit card with 0% interest for a certain period of time

41:07So they told us oh, why don't we get you a credit card for More than the 13,000 dollars so that that way you've got some extra money on the credit card that you can use that for Business stuff. Okay, that sounds like a great idea So they got us approved for like 25,000 dollars on an American Express card. I'm sorry I'm gonna either get a loan or get a new credit card to pay for this or several new credit cards to pay for it What is happening? So there's a third party company that has a close relationship with life surge. It's called copper rock financial And they basically do something called credit card stacking. I'm just adding this to kingdom wealth along the List of terms that I got a really understand here. We should have a glossary. What is credit card stacking then? So the company applies for a bunch of credit cards simultaneously All at the special 0% interest rate So far it sounds great You're up. I mean zero percent is it love 0% but then copper rock uses these cards to pay life surge for the courses up front

42:15The catch is that with companies like copper rock there's often like a brokerage fee of up to 12% But the bigger issue is that when that 0% promotion expires the interest rate can get really high like 30% This is all escalated quite quickly within the framework that life surge has encouraged Right, and I think that's actually how some of these former customers feel too is that it all has escalated very quickly For example, they said it the three-day event You have your own house. Don't you have equity in your own house Go use some of the equity in your own house So we did do that we did take out a line of credit on our house and we are having to use it right now, you know Should pay back the freaking credit card that we got with them So, you know, we've got like I don't know. I think it's like $8,000 now or $9,000 that we owe back to our healer

43:16But they push you on do they tell you to do that go Taking out money against your own house to pay for a stack of credit cards that allows you to pay life surge to Teach you to make money and make good investment decisions is A lot other folks that I've talked to have said that they will encourage you to cash out your 401k So it's not just taking out a line of credit, you know, against your house. It's you know other assets as well Which is to say that God That faith is the vector with which to do these deals I can imagine how that might leave a God-fearing person fearing a lot more I just remember that they would just talk about, you know, God's kingdom and instead of like some of these companies that are coming in and buying up rental properties They would rather see Christian families or Christian people coming in And purchasing these companies because we're coming in and maybe their houses for closing and by us coming in and not using a real estate agent or what not

44:25That we're coming in and we're helping these people we're helping them To get out of a bad situation One online commenter told me that when she expressed out during this impact class Someone told her something along the lines of that's the devil putting doubts in your mind Well as James 217 Reminds us and in this case here. I am of course reading from the email from life search pressure you to take an impact class quote in the same way faith by itself if it is not accompanied by action is dead the footnoting of the Bible is perpetual If you are a Christ-centered company You don't put your followers or other Christian people that are in your group in debt That's not what you do that's not I don't think Jesus would come in and say that's okay We should have been given an opportunity to go home

45:27Really pray about this and seek God's wisdom on should we have done this and we just they don't give you that So we should say here Kira that Karen did spend months trying to get a refund from life search According to the reporting you've done Eventually she got five thousand dollars back making this in her view Quote about a fifteen thousand dollar mistake I also spoke to a former life surge employee who told me that they would actually in that demonstration that they do for the Stock market session They would focus on single moms They would have all the single moms raise their hands and they would say like I have a heart for single moms or something like that And then they would choose a couple of them to come on stage And then they would give them the free impact classes And it's something that as you talk to all of these people you talk to John Simmons the sports betting addict That we heard from before that you interviewed Whether they realize it or not. This is the cost of doing business

46:28They gave away two courses When I was in my event one to a widow and one to a single mother When that widow and that single mother got into that room Who was gifted the ninety nine dollar class Do you think that we're gifted the fifty thousand dollar course Because ten t-bows not in that room But at the end of the day they're there to sell you on an idea that going into debt Is okay as long as it's kingdom driven and let me tell you I got plenty of Bible horses that say the opposite So So this is where I should say that we here at ptfo repeatedly requested interviews with life surge leadership to talk about any of this But founder Joe Johnson and president Sean Marcel through a representative declined And so what we did was send an extremely detailed list of questions to that representative Which eventually led to us instead receiving a three thousand word statement from life search Kind of an essay really that we are publishing in full over on ptfo's

47:33sub stack at www.pablo.show you'll find the link in the show notes But on the specific topic of life surges sales practices the thing we just discussed here But the company said in part was quote Life surge takes its responsibility to market and sell its programs ethically very seriously Life surge is not condone using a person's religious faith fear or spiritual beliefs to pressure that individual into purchasing a product Similarly life surge does not train its representatives to pressure customers into borrowing or taking on debt They cannot afford Financing is available to qualify customers who choose to use it through third-party financing organizations That decision rests with the customer and the third-party organization not life search enrollment in its educational programs is entirely voluntary and quote But what you should also know I think that the topic of debt Did seem to come up quite frequently at life surge events According to our reporting

48:34As heard in this on-stage conversation from June 2025 between founder Joe Johnson and president Sean Marcel The two leaders at life surge who declined to be interviewed Marcel is asking his boss Joe Johnson about the million dollars of debt that Johnson once signed up for before life surge in order to build his own personal real estate business When you think about one million twenty four thousand six hundred and twenty eight dollars And when you're gonna pay that off how long is it gonna take you now? I thought it was gonna take me 30 years But this is what's amazing when God calls you to do something. I promise you He will provide a way Yeah, and I was able to somehow pay that whole thing off with interest in three years Can you believe it Life surges social accounts by the way promoted this clip with the caption quote Where God calls he provides and quote

49:36Now in their statement life surge also claims that they offer refunds for those who attend But don't enjoy the three-day class But why we then wondered Do so many people keep claiming that they got scammed by life surge Not just an online forums and interviews with us, but also it turns out well beyond Yeah, we actually foiled the federal trade commission to gain access to all of the customer complaints that were filed against life surge We got 49 complaints on the record Since January 2016 yeah 49 responsive complaints that consumers have made to the FTC 49 with a lot of the complaints referring to this feeling of a bait and switch So one of them quote We purchased tickets to life surge and Huntsville, Alabama We believe that it would be a Christian-based day of like-minded business people We did not expect a bait and switch and the pressure to purchase investing classes

50:36We are very disappointed, but also concerned by the amount of people bought into this And quote yeah, here's another one. I'm so devastated that Christians like Tim Tibo made me trust in something that has taken so much money from me This is evil especially because I'm disabled on a limited income Another one here quote They lure Christians in with names like Tibo and a famous worship band You think it's going to be a worship type event and it turns into a six-hour business pitch of you can get rich too Everything just put a horrible taste in my mouth. I struggle with and I see Again John Maxwell Tim Tibo. I see Patricia Schreiber and it's like do they know What's happening to some of these people that are getting into this? And this question of How much of this are the celebrity speakers like Tim Tibo? Actually aware of right that's the question that everybody that I talk to keeps asking

51:37I mean, I would love to ask them you know, maybe someday when I'm no longer with white suit Why would you do this? You know you You know about the people that are losing thousands and thousands of dollars and just being asked to cash in their 401k's and Thinking about debit cards and credit cards in order to pay for these classes. It just it doesn't seem like something a good Christian Motivational speaker or pastor would want to be a part of I think the number one question people who are Outside of this world want to know is do they know just Tim Tibo now what's happening? But people who are really upset the most are offended that their favorite Christian speaker Is possibly gotten them into this trouble Life in 2026 is tough. We all have our struggles and we could all use some help But trying to figure out how to get the right mental health treatment for you Can feel overwhelming Talk dietary helps you move from I know I need help to actually having a psychiatrist who listens and a clear

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53:44If you're looking for something predictable and low friction over the long term public markets may be a suitable option But the moment you want different investment characteristics It may be time to consider the private markets See how your wealth can work smarter at creative planning.com slash access Meet fin the single customer agent made for the entire journey from qualifying sales leads to resolving support issues Fin works across teams carrying context from one conversation to the next Learn more at fin.ai So So here I feel like there is a whole episode we just did already about what life surges and all the questions and all of the allegations and The disturbing ways in which they preyed upon some of the most vulnerable people in America who happened to believe in the god that life Surge says they're all here to worship But if I'm gonna paraphrase the book of Genesis, I suppose

54:45If in the beginning we understand that Joe Johnson created life surge What else do we need to understand about how this all came to be? Well before there was life surge there was another motivational seminars company called fittingly get motivated That hosted events across the country it focused on business and investment sound familiar. Yeah The dictionary defines motivation as inspiring someone to action Giving purpose and direction force and influence Since the beginning of time Motivation has empowered people communities and nations to achieve greatness From the time Moses led his people from the land of Egypt To Alexander the Great The birth of America the civil rights movement and more Motivation was the fire that stirred the hearts of men and women to act

55:45So it was founded a long time ago started in 2002 by a guy named Peter Lowe He's the son of a missionary and his wife to Mara Lowe His get motivated events were said to draw as many as 400,000 attendees a year and now we're looking at some of the posters that they advertise and there is in fact an exclamation point after the word motivated and get motivated And you immediately notice that the formatting of all of the cutout headshots Is quite familiar to anybody who's seen life surges general aesthetic right? I mean in addition to the company being structured like life surge It's like their promotional materials even look like life surge except they're doing it not so much in sports But politics the roster it was of its time George W. Bush. Yeah Laura Bush colon Powell Steve Forbes Rudy Giuliani and there were some sports figures too Terry Bradshaw former Steelers Hall of Fame quarterback is right there in the middle

56:47This is again a familiar team photo this from Memphis in 2011 Here I fear that we've buried the lead Yeah, it's taking us a while to get to May 2012 and get motivated is coming to Hartford And guess who's on the squad It's Bill Cosby flanked by Bill O'Reilly who is flanked I don't know if you recognize this face. I hate to do this to you. I don't I'm I'm so bad at this stuff that happens to be New York Giants quarterback Eli Manning The focus was on business and investment, but there was some religion How much religion are we talking? Well, so the co-founder Tamarillo was a staple of the get motivated lineup and she is known for a very specific skill To be a survivor in this amazing race with a need for speed you need God's grace And if you're desperate like housewives watching days of our lives You can't cope without hope and that's not on a soap If you're looking to open or doctor fill you can shop nonstop or pop a pill

57:50But the void won't fill and the pain won't kill till you love the one that hung on the hill We collect strange artifacts On this show That is hard to beat It's really good It's self-immused like festival under Under very different auspices CNN's got no good news. Here's a headline you must choose It's not a simple life pericel and it's tread nonthen ice liven and sin You can be an apprentice for Donald Trump or eat fear factor fast food from a dump You can be a heavy hitter a will of fortune winner a fox news no spin spinner a flat-out center But you better check this life that you live in and make sure you're sins of forgiven I bet you 50 cent Elvis done came and went and eventually every black eyed pig once the faunity P diddy and britney every want to be on MTV with the icy bling every dixie chick that sings They all gonna see the king of kings The tickets cheap we're talking turns out a dollar 95 a ticket Yeah, and then Once they got people in the door they pushed a three day investment course for

58:5099 dollars with an investment class as what option a real estate class as another and the real estate class here I do want to focus on because we did the investment before This real estate class with get motivated is offered it turns out by a company a Financial education and mentorship company called the wealth rock Which was selling programs for as much as 25,000 dollars to 30,000 dollars according to reporting And who is the owner of wealth rock? Kira well, it's joe johnson the founder later of life surge Which Makes me realize that oh get motivated is a bit of a prequel prequel is exactly right So they had this pretty sweet business relationship going on for a few years wealth rock joe johnson's business and get motivated Joe and peter low were so close and eventually joe was named cfo of get motivated in addition to his role running

59:55wealth rock then He saw an opportunity in 2011 to 2012 there was trouble in jesus rap paradise the worst kind of trouble there is Peter and t-marra were getting a divorce i don't want to make light of sin as divorce has been I'm told categorized over and over again But this divorce leads to an investment opportunity of sorts. That's right joe johnson was really Turnin lemons into lemonade. He was buying get motivated for $11.75 million dollars And so we do have to speedrun through some of this because there is so much here But i will simply say that according to the reporting That you have done for us here joe johnson borrow 12 million dollars from a woman who he met as a trainee in one of his investment classes With wealth rock and get motivated and he learns that this lady has millions of dollars actually from her family's stock

1:00:55Investments and joe johnson convinces her hey I'm going to buy get motivated from the founder of get motivated and Spoiler alert joe johnson wasn't paying this woman back According to the woman Amy wolf in question who sought judgments against companies that joe johnson controlled alleging that he redected on the loan and court records tell a story that is phenomenally messy But takes us to 2014 So in 2014 a judge issued orders in wolf's favor freezing 10 bank accounts connected to johnson's companies And later demanding they turn over their contents to her as repayment Receipts filed with the court show those accounts contained only $30,000 and while all of that is happening Which is again a lot get motivated itself as an entity This is also falling into Disrepair right so remember those speakers who were the headliners

1:01:57Bill Cosby please tell me bill Cosby was compensated for his labor what I can tell you is that according to Claims in the 2012 filing the Washington speakers bureau was owed $1.7 million for speeches made between November 2011 and February 2012 Which takes us then to june 2012 months later When there is an event poster forget motivated featuring Bill Cosby Which turns out to be the final get motivated event bloomberg describe it like this at get motivated's last stop in buffalo june 12th the 18,690 seat first Niagara Center was less than half full Cosby in a blue state University of New York at buffalo sweatshirt and sweatpants Mixed one liners with an appeal for seminar goers to listen to the speakers selling financial instruction All these millionaires are coming up and telling you how to make it he said

1:02:59Come on understand what they're saying get up All of which feels like branding that you might not want to take with you into get motivated's afterlife As Life search you would want to rebrand which is exactly what joe jensen did But this I think is where we should also convey that what joe jensen did for his part was right us Through his aforementioned representative and that statement reads in part quote joe jensen briefly owned get motivated seminars in 2012 and he has had no involvement with the company since he Therefore cannot speak to any issues regarding get motivated since 2012 including any debts it may oh Outside of that six month ownership period and the fact that he was a key figure in launching life surge Life surge has no connection to get motivated Life surge was developed a years later by a much broader team built around a distinctly Christian mission from the outset And was not an evolution or rebrand of get motivated's model and quote

1:04:00And as for that dispute between joe jensen and amy wolf his former pupil the one who loaned him the eight figures that allowed him to buy get motivated The statement continued in part quote litigation followed and was ultimately settled mr. jensen satisfied the approximately one million dollar personal guarantee He had provided and a lawsuit was dismissed and quote But by 2021 as you said before life surge is now operational and I turns out that one of the first people he brings in and there are a lot of characters here But you'll remember this guy Sean Marcel and he helps explain How life surge was born out of that mess I spent over 22 years in full-time vocational ministry pastoral missions And then I met the founder of life surge joe jensen while we were serving on a non-profit board together And it was during that season that I felt a transition in my heart, you know for the marketplace

1:05:02And really to make a kingdom impact in the marketplace and what he was doing Kira was in 2023 bringing in Champ he brought champion that's right so steve champa the dude With the impact classes Has what sort of a resume so for about 11 years before he was hired by joe jensen Champa was the chief revenue officer at a place called online trading academy Online trading academy rang a bell for us. It has been mentioned in those ftc complaints We got from our FOIA request So several of those complaints alerted the ftc to striking similarities They noticed between life surge training courses and online trading academy and a big reason why the ftc might have a problem with that is because Okay paperwork. Yeah, so I'm reading from the complaint for permanent injunction here This is from the ftc filed against OTA correct it says

1:06:06Defendants target older consumers with visibility to retirement age near retirement or retired To convince consumers to pay thousands and often tens of thousands of dollars for OTA's training and related services Defendants routinely represent directly or by implication that purchasers are likely to generate substantial income with OTA's trading strategy Which if you're going to translate it Is to say that we at the ftc whose job ostensibly is to protect consumer interests Are noticing that there is a pattern here which leads us to want to shut your operation down correct Another part of this complaint says defendants have routinely claimed that consumers who purchase OTA training programs Can quickly attain proficiency in OTA's strategy and deploy it to earn substantial income Regardless of their background and prior experience which to me sounds a lot like the impact classes at life surge

1:07:12Yes, and so we can say then as a very related matter that by September 11th 2020 there is a settlement that has been reached OTA is required by the federal government to offer debt forgiveness to the thousands of consumers who purchase the training programs In addition the company's founder and other execs were forced to pay between five and nine point seven million dollars The settlement also included a monetary judgment of 362 Million dollars which was partially suspended due to the defendants inability to pay it And then come December 23 OTA has changed its name as you might imagine to simply trading academy But they somehow continue to operate So despite all of that life surge hires Steve Champa in August 2023 This guy who spent 11 years working for OTA to now

1:08:13Run its stock trading courses, but it wasn't just Champa either Life surge hires Jeremy Nozac to be the new life surge CEO his background President of OTA slash trading academy from 2021 to 2024 And then in June 2025 life surge hires Jean Longabarty to be a senior business coach His background was as an exec at OTA for 17 years The coaching tree The coaching tree of OTA becomes life surge Although what life surge wants you to know I'm in there 3000 word statement was in part quote None of those individuals were named in the FTC action involving online trading academy and quote in that Steve Champa for instance was merely the chief revenue officer of OTA's Atlanta branch Life surge also wrote us that the individuals they brought over from OTA have quote

1:09:17led life surge to significantly invest in compliance Meeting applicable regulatory requirements is the baseline and quote But they did also note Something interesting which is that quote there is some overlap between portions of life surges curriculum in concepts taught by other education providers Including trading academy and quote the content of which life surge has a continuing right to use as part of its broader educational ecosystem There is also this and this is the thickest of all of the packets we have But this is 2025 it's August it's the Department of Justice filing suit against Joe Johnson accusing him of abusive real estate practice And I don't think we even have the time to give you the full breakdown of what this is But according to lawsuit you should know That quote from as early as 2013 to the present Johnson has facilitated as many as 190 abusive bargain sale transactions

1:10:18And quote having to do with real estate And the DOJ goes on to argue here are that Joe Johnson's abusive bargain sale transactions used valuable government resources estimating that the 99 total transactions that overstated the charitable deduction Could have resulted in a tax loss of over 46 million dollars All of which ended with Joe Johnson reaching a settlement with the federal government Which according to life surge quote offered mr. Johnson a settlement with zero monetary damages or civil penalties And no admission of wrongdoing mr. Johnson accepted the settlement and the matter is now fully resolved and closed Most parties experience and dealing with the IRS would likely consider these facts a significant victory for mr. Johnson and quote And so I can think of a couple of other people maybe who need a couple of classes Yeah, just I all it is 97 dollars. I think there's a bargain. There's actually a bargain that's available to find the guy with the clipboards

1:11:20Sign up Well, one of my favorite parts about this whole investigation that we've been doing is that There have been people who are trying to blow the whistle on life search who have been saying In online forums which we cannot take it face value But in retrospect when you cross check it against all of the governments complaints as well as our reporting seems to be worthwhile in terms of How it is that we need to understand the story of their alleged victimization Yeah, that's right and also just the sheer volume of complaints all of them basically saying the same thing Right, and so we returned to the again self-described sports betting addict John Simmons who has been trying to with turns out himself Get motivated to tell people about life search That's right after he went to that one day event he posted a video about it on youtube and the title of that

1:12:22Video is I went to life search a Christian money conference review with Christian in quotes In the conference I felt like it was more of a timeshare presentation than a good Christian representation of the gospel of Christ Even though there's nothing that happens after john Simmons posts that youtube video Shout out to a fellow youtuber is he receives a cease and desist letter which we also have here from a reputation management company We deal with reputation management and crisis PR people quite a bit on this show it turns out This letter is dated august 15th 2024 and in so many words it demands that john Simmons Takes down his content So they tried to strike down my channel they tried to get this content taken off so that you can't see it But we wanted to keep it out there for you to be able to see it so we scrub the video of anything that they can say is copyright infringement So he takes the video down But then he talks to his lawyers and he makes some changes and post it again

1:13:23Which was no small thing Incidentally insofar as life search cares deeply about online reputation management As its written statement to ptfo also indicates life surge does use its own google ratings as evidence of customer satisfaction They do this at least three separate times in the letter does for instance quote with more than 3000 google reviews The company has an average rating of 4.8 out of five stars with 97% of users giving a five star rating and quote And this is where we should note that it's not just external pressure from people like john Simmons and from other commenters Inside life search according to our reporting. There is now tumult in a way that raises even bigger questions Right, so the folks that I have spoken to have talked about rounds of layoffs There have been allegations of nepotism This whole thing has been weighing on one of my sources very heavily

1:14:25But really done some soul searching and dug into to do my research as far as what goes on that the Wai search events and then that be the impact classes which that's really make their money and I just I knew it was wrong when I see How it affects some people that Or has to go into debt to pay for these classes. It just it just breaks my heart So my conscience is getting the best of me and I just don't know how much longer I can Like and do what I do from right now. It's it's I try to push you region to the side. I just do this Because this is what I have to you right now to survive. So it's just a job I don't really look at it anymore as this great Christian opportunity Which brings us back to this question that has been articulated over and over again by so many of the people that You've been interviewing and It is what do the athletes the actual famous people who are the draws the headliners

1:15:27What do they know about what life surge is doing with these very vulnerable people who are looking for fundamentally Salvation The cynic in me wants to say of course they know they have to know you can't do 20 of these events a year and not know what's going on And it doesn't take very long to just google this and find these complaints I guess maybe if you're an optimist you're just wanting to believe that he's not aware of what's going on I want to measure my own skepticism and cynicism by assuming perhaps on one hand The best which is to say maximum ignorance And then on the other hand the frequency when textured with something for instance that magic johnson has said on stage in February In anaheim that makes it seem like actually his whole point of being there is to vouch For the very thing that we have been reporting on what a true true blessing for me because I listen and then I act

1:16:30See a lot. Oh Yeah, let me say that again. I listen and I do what So the question I have for magic johnson who we've been recording on lately in a bunch of different ways incidentally And is scheduled to headline another life surge event in november in san osay Did you actually listen? Did Tim Tebow listen before he acted Committing to again more than 20 events this year alone saying things that make people want to spend All of this money and I guess the other thing is that even if you assume the best intentions maximum ignorance, right It then gets into the question of due diligence You know shouldn't you be or shouldn't your people be researching this thing that you are going to 20 times in a year It's such a recurring through line as well in this show who is doing due diligence when it comes to Famous wealthy people saying

1:17:32We believe in this and you should do Right especially for somebody like Tim Tebow whose whole reputation is so tightly wrapped up in his virtue and his protection of the vulnerable among us from predators And the question is are we willing to give do we really believe in our creator That when we take what is valuable to us and we put it in his hands that he's gonna do more than we could possibly ask think or imagine Do we really believe that and I don't mean the extras. I don't mean what's easy to give I don't mean what's easy man. It's easy to sometimes be like oh I'll go volunteer for 30 minutes That's easy to give I'm talking about what's hard. What's really valuable to you the thing that you really God, I don't want to give you this The thing we haven't gone from Tim Tebow unfortunately is a comment In response to detailed questions that we hear a publisher. I find out in collaboration with mother drones has asked him and his representatives

1:18:36We have texted him as personal cell phone number. We have exchanged emails with his PR person and That is a pattern that we have experienced across now 14 different athletes some former some current As well as other sports figures associated who spoke at life search events in 2025 or 2026 Kira none of them agreed to speak to us for this story It's disappointing And if there is one thing that I do want to ask Tim Tebow about that we have been diligently Focusing on through the arc of this episode It is the impact classes It's the classes that take you from The 99 dollar thing 97 dollar thing to tens of thousands We're life surge and get motivated before it really made its money and What do we know about what Tim Tebow knows specifically about the impact classes Well, we don't have any comment from his team

1:19:38What we do have is a recording of Tim Tebow that was handed to us Where he appears to be talking about the impact classes I know that many of you today have probably signed up for Classes that probably sign up to take you next step and I want to encourage you To finish that to follow through To follow through on that computer to finish it's strong And when you consider the passion that Tim Tebow has for life search That familiar signature passion the same passion we heard when he testified in front of congress and stood up for victims and talked about tracking down predators I only have more questions Right does he know that it doesn't end with the impact classes that then people are going to these impact classes and being asked to shell out

1:20:39So much more money than the 97 dollars or the 30 dollars that they already were asked to pay does he know about credit cards stacking does he know about borrowing does he know about what we have said in this story and perhaps even more minimally Has he heard any of the complaints that you can find if you just go to google.com Or have any of his team Found out about those complaints and do they have questions about compromising his reputation Did anyone do any vetting On the way to getting paid an amount of money which we are also quite curious about You can look at speakers bureaus that have him registered as a speaker and The there's a range of course, but you know 50,000 to a hundred thousand per event is one range that I saw But here for the record is what life search told us about Tebow's personal compensation in that 3,000 word statement Quote due to contractual obligations life search does not disclose the financial terms of individual speaker agreements

1:21:45It can confirm however that Tim Tebow's compensation is not tied to sales of classes or any of its educational products And then mr. Tebow is not asked to endorse those programs and quote Although when we then followed up to ask if mr. Tebow has been fully informed and educated about the impact classes And subsequent training being offered and if mr. Tebow was also aware that real estate and stock market classes are being sold to attendees during those one-day events Life search proceeded to offer an uncharacteristically short response Quote all speakers are provided information about life search including our services prior to speaking at an event and quote And so I would like to have here a bit of a call to action directed at the celebrity sponsors like Tim Tebow To please speak to please explain what you know and when you knew it whether you're

1:22:52interested in knowing more about this investigation that we've been doing These are I think all relevant questions to the alleged victims that keep on popping up whenever you do any amount of research Because I think what somebody like Tim Tebow should realize is that this is about much more than money This is about people's faith So John Simmons he really explained it much better than I think I could and it's not about the money like I mean I am I am pro people going out there and getting the bag But when you're taking that money and at the end of the day someone might be getting hurt Not necessarily physically but emotionally or financially You have a responsibility as a Christian to care about those things and if you continue to go to 15 speeches a year and Get paid all this money to speak meanwhile people who look up to you are going broke You do not have the heart of Christ in this yeah in other words is anything sacred

1:23:59Right and are you kind of toying with people's faith are you using Christianity to You know manipulate people essentially I don't think we're done Kira Butler With our reporting no we're gonna keep on keep on Amen This has been Pablo Tore finds out a metal arc media production And I'll talk to you next time Because you didn't just say how can I provide these investments you be how do I elistically provide everything how to bring in the legal

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