Wayback Wednesday! Conquering the World so Christ Can Return with Orrel Steinkamp (2010) - A View From The Bunker

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1:01Just go to FringeRadioNetwork.com, write at the top of the page. I know slippers, we gotta keep cleaning these chimneys. The mythology of Dominionism, now on a view from the bunker. They claim to talk directly to God, they're visited regularly by angels, and they've got a divine mission they say to take over the world. Now it sounds crazy, and it might be except that they're rubbing shoulders with some of the most influential politicians in America, and some of the most prominent mainstream evangelical Christians. Our guest has been sounding the alarm about this movement for quite some time now. He's the publisher of the Plumline newsletter and archive, which you can find online at DeceptionInTheChurch.com. It's our honor to welcome Dr. Oral Steincamp to our program. Dr. Steincamp, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me, as they say.

2:04The most recent piece, or one of the most recent pieces that you've contributed to the excellent Herescope blog, and by the way, it was Sarah Leslie, who highly recommended that I get in touch with you, is about what you call the mythology of the Dominion mandate. I want to get into that in just a moment, but first, I guess, as a way of background. I'm putting the cart before the horse here, which is something a good interviewer is never supposed to do. As a way of some background, Dr. Steincamp, how do you come to this place now where you find yourself writing about and warning us about this new epistolic reformation? Well, actually, my wake-up call was over 10 years ago. Maybe 14th. This time gets away from me. I was passing a church, and all of a sudden, somebody said, you got to have the profits. I didn't know, and they actually had relatives in my little church.

3:15And sure enough, they came along, and it was like, well, what is this? I mean, it was something else. So, I told my church, hey, everybody hold tight for a week. I got to do some quick study on all of this. That's how I got involved in it. I learned right off the bat that it all eventually stemmed from a fringe pentacostle movement at mid-century called the latter rain. Since then, I've been, you know, because they continue on, so I continue following them. So this started as a way to do diligence as pastor of your church about this movement? Exactly. First of all, it was for my church. And after a number of years, I retired, but by that time, I was writing this.

4:17I do about five issues a year, and that's just continued on. And how long have you been publishing the plumbline? Well, you know, the one I'm doing now is volume 14, so that means 14 years. So, yeah. So what was, again, now let's get back to the article now, the mythology of the Dominion Mandate, you kind of trace the theological underpinnings of this movement back to this latter rain movement. Am I under correct in understanding that this was the movement led by William Brannum in the 1940s? Well, he didn't actually lead it. He had significant input. He was, at some point, the people who were starting the latter rain that were heat pack hostels that had moved from British Columbia to Saskatchewan.

5:20And they heard of him, and he was going around doing his thing, which is subject to itself. And they laid hands on him and imparted things to him. And then he still remained their hero. But the latter rain itself was in Saskatchewan, and that's where things happened and things radiated from there. Another fellow that had input, but wasn't really part of it. It was a fellow by name of Franklin Hall. And I think he was in Kansas City, I'm not sure. And he was, you know, you could do anything by fasting, supposedly his clothes or his clothes, and I never got dirty. I mean, if Brannum was a case, then Franklin Hall was a double case. So Brannum, yeah, he's surely involved, but I mean, he was not like the leader of it.

6:22You know what I mean? Okay. So this controlling mythology that you talk about then, or the Dominion mandate, how important is this Dominion theology to this latter rain movement, or vice versa? Are they one and the same? Well, you know, it's things have evolved since the mid-century. Brannum was the hero, the people in Saskatchewan, you know, they made a lot of waves. In fact, the assembly of God lost up to 40% of their pastors. The assembly of God right at that time took a stance, a real mark stance against them. And they came out with this thing of restoring apostles and prophets. Actually, it was based on the, you know, the early rain and the latter rain. This is a kind of climate metaphor from the Old Testament.

7:23The first rain, you'd go out and you'd plant seeds, and then in order to have the harvest, you had this thing called the latter rain. This is the way they farm back there. And it's mentioned in the Old Testament, but back in this time, the latter rain people, they called themselves the new order of the latter rain. They picked up this allegory, and they kind of formed what I call a salvation history, or some of the theologians call it the Hyalogicist study of holy history. And it became an eschatology for them. I think we're going great. And all of a sudden, Brannum, who had been getting, you know, he considered himself the John the Baptist before the second coming. And, you know,

8:23like I say, he's a study all in himself. I mean, it was very weird. He had meetings in which he said an angel would come and park on his shoulder, and he could, through the angel, he knew all the thoughts of all the people, and he cast off spirits, and told people to close their eyes, so that demons didn't come into the, you know, I'm just referring to that, to show him that he was way out there, but he just suddenly died. I mean, it was unexpected. And about that time, the latter rain, it kind of went in, it tanked, and it was not doing much. There was a few people in Texas, they were called Brannumites. They had a fellow by the name of Paul Kane, if you heard his name. He's one of the Kansas City prophets. Yeah, he was a player, yeah. But originally, he was sort of a boy progeny of Brannum, and he traveled with him.

9:29And then about the charismatic renewal allowed people with latter rain roots, to be revived. Earned back, sure, is a good example. He'd been right back there with the latter rain people. He became very popular in the charismatic renewal. And so, without it being called a latter rain, it got a new life in charismatic renewal. Then a little later, Mike Bickel, kind of gathered together a bunch of prophets. One of the other ones was Bob Jones. Bob Jones. And Paul Kane just arrived and said, you know, I found this end time, latter rain people, and he was accepted as the apostle of the apostles. And he did the same thing that Brannum did. He would read people's minds and stuff.

10:36I really don't know what was going on there. I don't know. It was pretty amazing. But he was also doing some other things. He was having homosexual relationships. Yeah, you can find information about that on the web and find that despite these encounters, he somehow still been restored and is considered sort of an elder statesman of this new apostolic reformation. Well, he kind of is, or he isn't. Bentley had him come to Lakeland, Florida. He got up and spoke, and it was amazing. There was criticism by other people in the the broader signs and wonders movement or whatever. You know, because he was sanctioned by, by none other than Rick joiner. And Rick joiner was the one who come out and said that, hey,

11:36he wasn't responding to his restoration. The guy who is really the older statement of the NAR is Bob Jones. Bob Jones, okay. In my estimation, he just moved around from Rick joiner to place in California called Beffel. Is it the Shay Ansa Church? There's a group of people called the Revival Alliance. But they're all connected. They don't advertise it, but they're related to Wagner's International Coalition of Beffel. They're kind of the Revival Alliance is kind of like a little franchise. They kind of do their own thing. But yeah. So Bob Jones, he is, you know, he's an amazing guy. I saw a video from Rick joiner's church

12:39just a couple of months ago where Bob and his wife were prophesying and and Mrs. Jones prophesied based on the type of sneakers that Bob Jones was wearing that day. New balance, you know, 22 or something. And that was the inspiration for a, you know, God, God bringing a new balance to to the church. That's just exactly the way he, you know, anything he sees that that causes his imagination to to move that becomes a word of the Lord. Well, the one, you know, we could go on and on about Bob Jones, but you know, he has kidney failure. Pretty, pretty serious, I mean. And but he's the one who says that the anointing is located physically in your body and your kidneys. So I always say to myself, you know, wow, the anointing is there. Why in the world? How you having kidney problems? Well, yes, and certainly we don't wish you ill on

13:42anyone, but I don't either. No, I don't either. But he, well, you know, you've probably read that he he goes at least three times to the new heaven. Right, right. And he's constantly, right, constantly speaking to angels and to God directly. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he, he sees that as a third heaven. The second heaven is where all the demons are and then there's spirit. So he talks about in order to go, he's got to fight his way through the second heaven where all the demons are trying to stop him, but they can't and so on. Well, clearly there's an element of carnival showmanship in the new apostolic reformation, but there's also an underlying theology that's very dark. And it's my opinion that the very understandable reaction by the American people to Barack Obama's

14:44political policies has led many Christians to set discernment, you know, what discernment we have that is on the shelf in favor of making political allies against this very liberal agenda that's being pursued. And that was something that you've been writing about quite a bit lately, but really what I want to get into as sort of again, sort of a foundation for understanding why this movement is dangerous and why we should be aware of it and pay attention to it. Again, your article, the controlling mythology of the dominion mandate. What is the theology of this movement? When you peel away all of the signs and the wonders and the shaking and the speaking and tongues, what is the theology behind this movement? Well, it does have it indirectly. It's birth in the latter reign because the latter reign people said there's going to be a second pentatost. So there needs to be a restoration of apostles and prophets and the apostles will be foundational and the

15:52prophets will give a continuing stream of new revelation. That's why there's so, you know, daily there's new things coming from quote the throne room. So then let's say now during the tyrismatic renewal toward the end of it, there was a thing that came up called the kingdom now. And that's just another name for dominionism. And so it first of all, it dispenses with, it goes back to the latter reign to it dispenses with ordinary end times teaching that's been traditionally taught for centuries. And the idea is this new latter reign with the apostles and prophets with new revelation and all of that is going to cause an end time revival

16:54that will literally take over the world. Well, and it started to get, it started to get militaristic whereas the latter reign people in the 50s, today, were thinking more of great revivals, billions of souls. But I'm not just sure who it was, but came up with the idea that we are mandated to militarily take over the earth. And there was a lot of different personalities and everything in this. And along comes Peter Wagner, who's great contribution is that he came and he organized all this. And you know, he has the international coalition of apostles and and he has successfully in not too many years, gotten almost all the independent charismatic people

17:57are linked to him either publicly or not publicly. And so yeah, the teaching behind it is, well, it's a form of, well, post-millennial teaching, et cetera, with a militant branding of it. Post-millennial meaning. Post-millennial means that Jesus will come back after the millennium, after the church has spread the gospel to the point that it takes over the earth. That was a fairly benign eschatology until the dominionist people said, well, we just can't wait on that. We have to employ signs and wonders. Wagner himself developed spiritual warfare to, you know, he has this idea of developing things, you know. And he developed all kinds of, different kinds of

19:04non-biblical tactics in order to take over cities first and then hopefully areas and then the world. Is it significant that Dr. Wagner was a professor of church growth at Fuller Theological Seminary? Ultimately, I was a missionary in Vietnam and we knew of Mr. Wagner because he was a missiologist. A lot of our missionaries studied with him. But, and at that time, that's what he was. But he was a pragmatist and so he'd go anywhere where the church seemed to be growing or having an impact and he just traced all these things down. His first book was Look Out the Pac-Othals Are that goes back to my era. But he's a pragmatist. Absolute pragmatist. What works is gotta be some

20:09God. In fact, he's written articles on that. And then he got linked up with a call about name a John Wimber. And he's the father of the vineyard movement. And John Wimber would come to his classes on missiology at Fuller and they'd have, oh, what you call a case, that case, they'd have actual attempts at signs and wonders, especially deliverance and stuff. And so Wagner just, he just giving it to him more and more and more. And they were trying to make the supernatural manifest in sort of an experiment. In order that. Sort of an organized, high-powered version of playing with a Ouija board. Yeah. And with this stuff, they could therefore go out and make conquests. And that leads to ultimate dominion of the world. I mean, that's how that ties in.

21:13So, I'm trying to get my, still trying to get my mind around this. So they were certainly, no, no, no, you're getting it clear. I just find it hard to believe that anyone who calls himself a Christian would, so disregard God's clear commands, not to mess around with the supernatural realm because we're not equipped to handle it. They were literally trying to bend the supernatural world to their will. Well, it was Wimber who came up with the idea of what he called power evangelism, which you really can evangelize when there are healings and there are supernatural manifestations. And that's just taken from the New Testament when Jesus would cast up spirits and some of the apostles as well. And so they just said, well, that's for today. And they just began to do things. And it just, you know, things just kind of got out of hand.

22:16The manifestations of power. Now there's no limit on it because the prophets and people, I mean, they talk to angels and manifest oil from their hands that never stop spinning. That's the teeth turning to gold. Gold and yeah, yeah, all that stuff. So this dominion, the minion theology, they actually believed Dr. Steincamp that there on a mission from God to literally conquer the earth. Exactly. Exactly. Now, theologically, what is the purpose of this? Do they believe that Jesus can't or won't return until we retake the plan? Exactly. You've probably heard that. Their teaching is that until we conquer the earth for Christ, Christ is quote waiting in heaven. And so it's up to them. Although some of them feel that Christ has already become incarnated into the

23:21body of Christ. So that's a different wing of the same movement. But generally speaking, they say, yeah, we have to do this because Christ is waiting in heaven. He's not coming back for an old hag of a bride. He wants a victorious bride, you know, all that kind of stuff. I've read the quote, you know, the bride wears combat boots. Exactly. That's a great picture that they have. So the latter reign, if I understand the symbology here, then the seed was planted at the first reign. And I guess in that sense, the seed that was planted was Jesus coming to earth as, well, you know, I guess let me back up just a step here. In this new theology that has come out of the latter reign movement, what role does Jesus play? If the church literally has to reclaim the planet, what happens to the power of the blood? They subscribe to all of that, but that's not

24:26what they're on about. They're on about the more prophecies, more angels, more gold teeth, and all of this because that will overwhelm the unbelievers when they see the manifest power of God. The cross does not figure very much. They won't be nine to cross. And they even talk about people getting saved, but that's a side issue with them, you know, really is. So the main issue is the work that we have to do to reconquer the earth. Exactly. Exactly. Now here I've got a quote that by a fellow by name of Lance Walnall, and he's big time in the NAR right now. And now, it starts out like it's his words, but then it sounds like it's a prophecy, but I don't know which it is, but he states, but God has a plan. Go into the entire world. All of its systems,

25:34its mind molders and its nations and infiltrate the world with my power. So it must be a prophetic statement. And my teachings don't run and hide. Go through the door of globalization and world economics while it is yet bayed. You know, that's, you put in a little scripture there once and a while while the opportunity exists penetrates the nations and the systems with the demonstration of your belief system by signs and wonders that supernatural power has come that is greater than anything upon the earth. That's a kind of a summary statement, you know, and it's kind of nice because it's kind of a mixture of his words and a so-called prophetic statement. So, as the teachers of this dominion theology justify what they teach,

26:41in other words, on what scriptures do they base the teachings? Well, here they take a page out of a movement. It's still around, but a fellow by name are Rush Duny. He's gone now and reconstructionist. Reconstructionism. And Rush Duny wanted to do the same thing. He just didn't, he had no time for signs and wonders. So there's some overlay here. And but Rush Duny gave them some of the biblical, they don't need much biblical, but the cultural mandate is from Genesis 1, 28, where Adam was to take dominion over the earth. But you know, if you read the passage, it's really that man would take dominion over the created order, not that he'd take dominion over other men, you know, and that's they're reading into it there.

27:44But Wagner just assumes, you know, that what he's doing is the cultural mandate. By way of Rush Duny, although Wagner would never give him credit for it. The other thing is the the great commission. This goes back to Rush Duny as well. You know, go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, some in the Spirit. Well, they take the word nations there to mean literally, you know, go and preach the gospel to nations, and they distinguish that from preaching to individuals. That's another big thing. They're not interested in the gospel salvation. They're interested in the gospel of the kingdom. Volume, volume, volume. We'll get him by the millions.

28:45Right. And so all those of two things borrowed from Rush Duny. Wagner, you know, he's written a book called Dominionism. And I've seen some people on the map that have reviewed it. And he starts out that the Dominion teaching is a new wine skin. And a new wine skin is something that something new that happens in history. So it says, you know, when Constantine came, that was a new wine skin. The Reformation was a new wine skin. Low and behold, we now have a new wine skin. That's the teaching of Jesus, right? And the new wine skin is the second Pentecost, the Dominionist thing.

29:46Well, the whole new wine skin, you know, had it in context in the New Testament, and have anything to do with church history at all. It had everything to do with Jesus' presence and when he leaves and all those kinds of things. So that's illegitimate, but, you know, that doesn't matter, I guess. So he's big on a thing called Marketplace Apophil. Now, my retort is simply where in Scripture, well, he just feels that's a new wine skin. Anything he wants to do is just a new wine skin that he believes that he can cause to exist. Another is this great transfer of wealth. You know, billions of dollars will come from the non-Christian world to make this Dominionist thing really go. Well, he equals,

30:50you know, illegitimately again, when the children of Israel came out of Egypt, they were given a lot of gold from Egypt to take with them. That's all it's necessary to believe in the great transfer of wealth. Now, something else. I guess Paul didn't understand that concept, since he had to keep working a day job, making tense. Yeah, the work is day job, and work is singer's bloody, making tense. Yeah, and God didn't heal him of his physical affliction, either. So he was lacking in some faith or something. Right, he sure did. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's so easy to get cynical here. It really is. Well, they make it so easy, Dr. Stan can't. And it is real. I didn't take this movement seriously until we saw the political connections that we'll talk about here in a little bit. But you mentioned new revelations. Is that how they get away with all this unscriptural teaching? They just call it. Everything they do

31:50is that everything is so far out from Scripture that it's not mentioned in Scripture. So they say, it is Scripture. It doesn't talk against gold in your teeth. Then there's no problem because we have ongoing revelation. Just like Joseph Smith. I remember when I went on my honeymoon, we went to Salt Lake City, and they were telling us about Mormonism. They were saying, you know, all right, believe in all the Bible and everything. But we believe in continuing revelation. And Joseph Smith, he's just got additional new revelation. Well, this group, they just live on that without it, they really couldn't really do what they're doing. Well, because they're making it up as they go. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And all you need is an imagination. What is the eschatology of this? How do they see

32:52the end times playing out? How does it differ from traditional or accepted prophetic analysis? Well, first of all, the teaching in Scripture that in the last times, there will be a falling away. And in the last times, people be lovers of themselves. All of that, they either, and of course, here's the thing called the rapture. And I don't know, I guess they felt they had to deal with it. And early on, they said, well, the rapture is not, you know, the saints coming to meet the Lord as he returns to earth. No, no, this is a rapturous feeling. It gets real silly. So hearing a song you really, really like, that kind of fulfills the prophecy? Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, the whole idea that there will be a new breed of people,

33:57jewels, army, and they will conquer death. That's another part of this. That does go back to the letter lane that they will conquer death. And, you know, these spiritual, super, supermen, the apostles and prophets will take over the world just because they're new Moses. Well, you mentioned, Joel's army. I've been doing some reading about that lately. And I've heard the term for a while. And it was only very recently, through reading a piece that Joel grew of discernment ministries wrote about 20 years ago, that I really began to understand the dark streak that runs through the theology and the eschatology of the new apostolic reformation. What is Joel's army? I think the author of it was Paul Kane. And used to put up signs

34:58that it's meaning, you know, called recruiting for Joel's army. I think the revelation was initially his. But it, of course, has spread throughout all of the, this movement. And it comes from Joel too. And in Joel too, Joel is, I can just find it here quick enough. Maybe not. Well, I'll, I'll, I'll vent while you're looking there. I did some reading on this last night. And the description of the, the army in Joel's too is very similar to another end times army that we'll talk about here in just a moment because I have my own opinion as to what this, what this army actually is. Well, in context, it has to do with the day of the Lord. And Joel, especially if you read chapter one, you'll find out that what he's talking about in all of this is a huge locust plague.

36:01And so all of this, these armies and people, they march in, you know, their appearance is like the appearance of horses, you know, on, apparently, you know, locusts, you know, their heads look a little bit like a horse. Oh, in other words, it has nothing to do. It has everything to do with Joel's prophecy to, to the people of Israel. And the great judgment that's coming upon them, but they've just, they've just taken it and just exported it all over the centuries and saying, and this is what is going to happen. And the prophets and this new Joel's army, these super humans, they're going to carry this out. So the day of the Lord when prophecy scholars make reference to the day of the

37:01Lord, which is mentioned many times in the Old Testament by Joel, Isaiah, and Zekiel, and others, what are they referring to the day of the Lord? Well, this is an interesting study. There's not as much clarity there as, you know, as we could hope for through a glass dark way, yeah. Yeah, through a glass dark way, exactly. And in the Old Testament, it has to do with the day of judgment, you know, in the New Testament, Paul and the others, pick up the day of the Lord, and and it's referring to the return of Christ when he will judge all nations, you know, he will judge between the sheep and the goats and he'll be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So there's a kind of, there's an Old Testament context to it, picked up in the New Testament to the day of the Lord being the day of Christ when he returns. So how does the New Apostolic Reformation define the day of the

38:04Lord? They don't actually talk about it so much, but it comes out in the Joel context. Okay. Yeah. And they believe that the army of Joel too is not referring to God's judgment upon the earth. They believe that they become Joel's army. They they become Joel's army and they execute God's judgment upon the earth, just like the Locust play executed judgment upon Israel. So they are somehow then transformed into supernatural Godmen who... Godmen, yes, yes, a new breed that these people will not only conquer the earth, but there's an aspect that isn't always referred to called tokering death. And I think it was Paul Cain, he said, these people, you can put

39:08them in prison, they can supernaturally get out, they can conquer all diseases, and they they will conquer death. And there was a movement in the latter rain stream of things that really took this seriously. And a number of these people, you know, confessed that they weren't going to die. But just about all of those laterane people that confessed this, as far as I know of the last one was a fellow by name of Preston Eby, Eby, Eby Y. And he just recently died. Well, I know that William Bran was followers weighted by his grave side for a week waiting for him to sit up again. And that obviously didn't happen. There's another army mentioned in chapter 9 of the Book of Revelation, which is described as being like Locusts. And that's the army that comes out of the pit when it's opened by a polyon. And you've got that comparison, which I think is...

40:15I'm certainly not a scholar of prophecy, but I noticed it. And my wife, as we began studying this just a few weeks ago, and came across the repeated references to the seven mountains of influence, the seven molders of culture, the seven centers of power that form a very important part of dominion theology. My wife pointed out that it was surprising that no one in this movement thought, you know, maybe we should make the number six or nine or something different than seven because the the the the prostitute of Babylon, the harlot of Babylon, sits on the seven headed beast, which it represents the seven hills on which that end times apostate churches formed. Now you won't hear the dominion people talk about this very much, you know. Although I did watch a training seminar that's still available online, recorded back in February of this year at God TV's website with C. Peter Wagner teaching what he calls the seven M mandate. So they've

41:17removed the word mountain, but it's still the same seven M's. Yeah, yeah it is, but they've re well, they call it mountains, but they're they're the mountains of society. You know, it's and the biggest teacher on this is a fellow by a name of Lance Walnut. Who you quoted earlier, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's his kind of calling in the movement. I does other things too, but almost always. And that idea, they say the origin of that was two men by the one by the name of Lauren Cunningham, ponder, leader of Y-Wam, and a fellow by the name of Bill Bright. Campus Crusade, yeah. Yeah, and they say that these men about 10 years ago, they independently of one another, they came up with these seven spheres of influence that

42:21had to be conquered. And I don't know who who finally said we're going to call them the seven mountains. That would be an interesting thing to see who originated the mountain theme, but now they have that very rigidly. But again, irony there is that the End Times Church is we're told in the book of Revelation that it's built on these on while not these seven hills, but on seven hills. And it may just be coincidence, but it's interesting to speculate on now. You know, what if the End Times of Postate Church is actually built on seven ideas, this concept of seven mountains, rather than seven literal mountains, say in Rome. Yeah, that is maybe more than coincidental. Now they would be very upset with that. I'm sure they would be. They've got to come up with a whole new marketing plan. Yeah, exactly. So they literally leave just a recap that these apostles and

43:25prophets have been raised up by God to lead Joel's army to conquer the world so that Jesus can return. And again, he can't return until they do that. And as I mentioned at the top of the program, when you say it that way and lay it out there, that clearly, it sounds nuts, which is why I think many mainstream Christians just sort of ignore the whole thing. But then Dr. Stein camp has been writing about in some pieces at Haroscope lately. This movement has been mainstreamed or is being mainstreamed over the last couple of years through men like Lou Engel, who's managed to establish some pretty solid political connections. And then the event that really grabbed my attention was the first that grabbed my attention was Mayday 2010, which was seven hours of prayer on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. One hour for each of these seven mountains. How significant was this Mayday event in your opinion? Well, it's so significant

44:26that those that they by this following the dominionism and the seven mountains of influence and all of that, that in that event, they were, as you say, mainstreamed. They were given credence. They now have an acceptable place at the evangelicals table. Not that everybody's got to believe it, but it's now like it's an acceptable possible belief, even though it's nuts. Thanks to Janet Porter. She was the organizer of the Mayday thing. From the article you recall, she went to a meeting in Houston. She says now that she's not there, but she was there. She quoted it saying,

45:33have the quote somewhere, but it's in the article. You know that it is the church's responsibility to conquer the world and all of that. And then she being who she is in the Christian light. She was able to be the introducer of all these and she sought to it that they all got invited. Not all of them. Four or five. Cindy Jacobs Dutch sheets. Yeah. Yeah. And let's see who is the other one. I think Lawrence Walnow. I'm not sure there was four of them. I'm not sure which one. Oh, yeah, she's already mentioned it. So, you know, whenever she's name comes up again and somebody is teaching something, oh, you know, he was invited to the premier evangelical political action movement. And so it's like, yeah, endorsed by Dr. James Dodson. By Dodson, I don't think, you know,

46:38I can't speak for Dodson, but you know, I think he was maybe too anxious to, you know, make some points for the Christian right. And yeah, I don't think he was probably watching. And I would like to know his comments now after there's been some discussion about that. But I haven't heard any. Well, the thing that startled me was one of the things that has startled me over recent weeks is then looking at the website for the National Day of Prayer Task Force, which was chaired by his wife, Mrs. Dodson. Yeah. The mission statement for the National Day of Prayer Task Force is to call Americans to pray for the seven centers of power. That paradigm has now become not only mainstream, but endorsed. He can't have greater endorsement than the National Day of Prayer from Shirley Dodson. Also, on that bright, I think she was the coach here. Franklin Graham, right? And all of them there,

47:41you know, and I remember I went to the to the event here and I was talking to some people and and I said, do you see this? You know, people just understand. I said, this, you know, this is right from the minute, well, what's the minute, you know, I mean, there's such a lack of understanding out there that, you know, but right. Totally endorsed, probably unintentionally, but endorsed never the last. Where does this lead? Where do you see this movement going based on what you're seeing so far in 2010? That is a hard question. I think they will continue to infiltrate the Christian right. These people will take every opportunity for exposure. You know, it's still hard for me to

48:44believe that they're going to pull off a coup, you know, but they, you know, it's amazing. They've got people in the military that back this, the head of the chaplain. So, by name of Amherman, it is totally involved in this dominion theology. You know, so he's in the military. They're going to just continue to pick off influential people. I don't know when there, when there could be a tipping point, but they believe we do enough of this. There will be a tipping point someplace and they'll gain control. You know what they're trying to do in Uganda. You follow down? I have somewhat, in fact, Luangal, who is the man behind the call, was there just recently at a rally. And Uganda is an interesting case study of dominionism and action. The president there has been nurtured and counseled and cultivated by the secretive group, the family, for many years.

49:50Or I know about the family. And of course, they operate the Sea Streethouse in Washington, DC, which is owned by Lauren Cunningham's Y-Wam Youth with the Mission. Yeah, see, these inter, these political intertwining of things, the farther you think, the more of the roots are entangled, you know? Well, in some of the time we have left, one of the pieces that you wrote recently for the plumb line was an article about Chuck Pierce, who appears to be the heir apparent to see Peter Wagner as the head of the International Coalition of Apostles. And you kind of discussed some of the structure of this movement that you've discovered through your years of research into it. Who are some of the key players that we should watch for? All Wagner, he's the glue at the moment, but Chuck Pierce is heir apparent. And Chuck Pierce, and this is interesting. Oh, it's Wagner's wife's name.

50:59Doris. Doris, you know, they are the two vice presidents. That so watch them because you know, I think Wagner's a very healthy man, but you know, he's reached the ripe old age, you know? He's in his 80s. Yeah, there's no sheets who's kind of the head of the Apostles in the USA. So he's very important too. And he is see Peter Wagner's pastor. That's right. That's right. Cindy Jacobs is important because she's the head of this Apostolic Council. Oh, I know the... The prophetic elders. Yes, yes. And she is seeming to me. She's carrying more and more weight. You know, more than you would think

51:59that she should. So I would say watch her. Yeah. She and her husband have been doing a tour across the nation and here's how there's this political involvement. They go to a state, I don't know, how many states they've covered. And they get the... Here's where I... The Constitution of the States and they pick up the fact, oh, you know, God willing or something about God. It's not much there, but there's... And so they read this and they organize people to pray and all this stuff in order that each state will become diminished. I don't even know how to express it. Is this what they call their root 52 prayer strategy where they're... One week each... It's basically a 52 week prayer strategy what they're calling it for bringing the United States back

53:03to what they call its covenantal roots. Yeah, that's another interesting point because I take issue with that. There's only been two covenants and one was with a nation in the Old Testament and the new covenant of which we were apart was not to any one nation but was to people from all the nations. And secondly, you don't just say, you know, hey, do you... Let's have a covenant here. No, no, that is by the initiation of God only. No man can issue a covenant. And no man issue to covenant with the United States any more than the people in Australia feel there in some kind of covenant too because somebody prophesied there's a great... The land... Something about holy nation down under something. That's not exactly right.

54:09So yeah, this is the covenantal roots, you know, and this is the way the prophets taking a hold of this idea of taking America back which people are concerned about it. And I can understand it. Now they use that to become, to bring in the whole dominion theology. I don't know how successful they're going to be. They're moving along pretty good right now and what happened on Mayday was like a quantum leap for them that can't really be taken away from them. Now critics have pointed to the fact that only a few hundred people actually went to Washington, D.C. for the event. But you think that there's more significance there than the actual numbers that they attracted to the Lincoln Memorial. Well, I mean in terms of the credibility that they gained by getting the enforcement of people like that. I think a lot of people live in the conditions that

55:10we have now. The last thing they could think about was to spend money to go to Washington, D.C. I think that was a part of it. But the fact is, there they were rubbing shoulders with... I don't know if Dopson ever showed up personally, but Tony Perkins was there and all of that. They gained credibility that this can't be taken away from them and they will build on it. Because I can't find these things. Maybe I can't hear. And this wasn't the first event. Again, Dr. Dopson spoke at Lou Engels, the call event in San Diego back in 2008. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And Mike Huckabee, Tony Perkins, Gary Bauer, have attended other events for the call.

56:11Lou Engels seems to be very important in bringing them this credit with the politicians. His strong statements on abortion that give him a ticket and he uses it. It was interesting in a response that Janet Porter, who organized the May Day event, made at her website in response to her radio show being dropped by the network VCY America. She tells the story of the day that she was hired by Dr. D. James Kennedy, the late D. James Kennedy as a national director of his reclaiming America for Christ ministry. And she said, you know, you shouldn't hire me because I don't agree with you on everything. I'm not a five point Calvinist. And Dr. Dopson or Dr. Kennedy rather said, we agree on the main things. And it appears that as long as somebody agrees on the main things, which for Christians is abortion and homosexual marriage and pornography, right. That's seen as long as you agree on those

57:16main things, then little things like whether you accept the Bible as the ultimate test of truth when it comes to relationship with the Lord God Almighty gets set to the side. Is that a fair statement? I think it's absolutely fair. And I think that is why this movement can just gain and gain and gain because like in my town you go out and you start talking of anti-abortion and I'm a postal abortion. Anti-gay, and what was the other one we mentioned, it's like you, I was you, you know. And so consequently that becomes a ticket, a ticket for all. And now they have the endorsement, you know. And I didn't know about Dr. Dopson attending, you know, and that's just a precursor to the May,

58:16the May Day thing. Yeah, there's a long history there. And of course when you get into the history of the family, you get a political connection that go back to the 1940s and you find those connections between the family and the charismatic movement through the Seven Mountains and through youth with the mission, Lauren Cunningham. And there are a lot of threads that are being woven together and we're only seeing parts of it. We're like the blind men trying to figure out what this elephant is that we've, you know, by touch and it's we're only seeing parts of it at a time. Because of so much of it is underground, you know, I mean, you have to really be a digger to get to these things. And consequently the average question you meet and you say just some of this stuff, and I'll say you got to be crazy. Why don't you get something like that? Exactly right. And it's like, okay, what more do I say, you know. Oh, you talk like that. You must be a conspiracy theory internet radio host.

59:18Oh, I'm horrible. Yeah. Well, we're we're proud to have you here and and discussing this. And again, just a shame that we have to be discussing things like this because it is so far removed from biblical truth. That again, for me, I'm only just within the last couple of months beginning to take these folks seriously. In spite of the work you've done, Dr. Steinkamp, over the last 14 years in trying to warn the body of Christ that there is a cancer that is growing and spreading. And what is most disturbing to me is that because of the political reaction in the United States to the election of Barack Obama, it appears that we are welcoming this heresy with open arms. Yeah, because you know, I'm not political, but if you if you oppose Obama, you have another free ticket. It was an awful lot of people, you know. I wish that wasn't true.

1:00:20I'm not making any comments for against Obama, but if you're if you're against Obama, you can you can get up on your soapbox and you'll be listening to. It's almost as though American Christians are more afraid, conservative Christians are more afraid of Barack Obama than of Satan himself. I believe it. I believe it. I know I don't I don't write about Obama because I just know a lot of people that they have picked up this Obama hatred. The posing is due points and his thing. That's one thing. But this I sense is a hatred out there. And that this makes it hard. Well, and that's not scriptural either. Jesus Christ told us to love our enemies. No experience. And to pray, I remember one time I was in my church and I you know in the pastoral prayer I prayed for Clinton. You know, he wasn't like very well either,

1:01:21you know, but I prayed and I prayed for him by name. Oh man, I got it costed after church. I said, hold on a minute. Let's go to Romans 13. Yeah. And read these verses. Oh, it's okay. I really don't want to hear anymore about this. It's it's hard for us to overcome our human tendencies and to try to look for exemptions in the cases of political figures we don't like and people we don't especially like and perhaps press family members we'd rather not see it the holidays. But those exemptions aren't in scripture. In just the last couple of moments, what do we as Christians, Bible-believing Christians do? How do we stand? How do we recognize? I guess maybe that's the most important question. How do we recognize this heresy as we begin to see it creeping in? What do we look for? What signs? A denial of the obvious teaching of the second coming. By the way, the second coming doesn't get

1:02:26preached about much anyway. Oh, he meant that. Is that a man? Yeah. That he hear the word of Pothel. Hey, red flag right away or prophet so and so, red flag. You know, those are the big ones. And if you hear, you know, the seven mountains because they are pushing that. And those are one signs. And when you hear anyone say, I can't claim that this is original to me, but I wish it was. When anyone says God is doing a new thing, run for your Bible. Here's one I can't claim either, but concerning dominionism. It's a virus that's gotten like. When I heard it, I thought, there you go. There's the picture we need. Well, sadly, 2010 seems to be a banner year in the spread of this movement. Dr. Oro Stankamp,

1:03:27again, a watchman on the wall who's been warning about this for 14 years. He's got an archive of newsletters, his plumbline newsletter online at deceptioninthechurch.com. I'll put a link to that in the show notes so you can find that. And we look forward to reading more of your writings, both in the plumbline and at Harris scope. Dr. Oro Stankamp, it's been an honor and look forward to talking with you again. Oh, thanks. It's my privilege to just get to know you and know that there are people like yourself out there. Praise God. A link to the archive of plumbline newsletters published by Dr. Stankamp will be posted in the show notes. And please note that the show notes will be online at vftb.net. That's the new website for view from the bunker vftb.net. Again, this coming Friday night, a two hour live program, a new feature of view from the bunker, two hours live with your phone calls and interaction via the chantroom included. You'll find more information about that as well at vftb.net. Next week, we'll talk to Dr. Future, Dr. Michael Bennett,

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