Want to Save the World? Start by Unionizing Your Workplace

0:00I can't work this too cool. All right, welcome everyone to Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles of the working class today. My name is Max Million Alvarez and today we are talking about labor unions. Why they are important, why they have always been important for working people, and why they are more important now than ever, and why you should be part of one. In their new book, Fired Up About Unions, veteran labor educator, organizer, and writer Cole Rockhardt's rights, quote, we are living in a pivotal moment in labor history. At a time when corporations have more power, profit, and political influence than ever before, workers are leading inspiring union organizing campaigns and taking on bosses to win big. These workers are fighting not just for themselves, but for their communities too.

1:00Their struggles reveal that everyday people can unite, change their conditions, and build better workplaces, and a better world. And quote, so this is what we are going to be talking about today. And we are really basing this conversation on Cole Rockhardt's great new book, which everyone should go read. You can find it using the links in the show notes for this episode. And I'm really grateful to have Cole Rockhardt's themselves joining us on the show today. So Cole, welcome. Congratulations on this important book. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about the book and where it came from? Absolutely. Thanks, Maximilian. It's really exciting also to hear someone else read it because it's just been in the ether for such a long time. So thanks for that. It's very cool. So Fired Up About Unions, which again you can get at BTL, between the lines in Canada, or AK Press in the US, or your local library, give it an order there. Really examines kind of what unions are demystifies the myths around unions that we don't need

2:06them, that they're outdated, that young workers can't be organized, or different types of workers can't be organized. And really lays the groundwork of why unions have become so weak in our respective countries in Canada and the US, and talks about why young people can be the antidote to all of the problems facing work and really unions themselves. Unions aren't perfect, but if we take the view that unions are made up of people, and we recognize that our co-workers are just regular people, and we all ultimately want the same things, and that's higher wages, protections at work, health and safety on the job, and better. That's the great place where we can start to come together and change not only our individual situations, but as I say in the book, our communities, and even beyond. Hell yeah, and we're going to be talking about how to do that, how to do better, get better,

3:09and fight better from the shop floor and beyond. I'm so grateful with Cole's help that we've pulled together an incredible panel of folks here, union organizers and members from across Canada and the US, and we're going to dig into all this now, but first I wanted to ask if you all could introduce yourselves to our listeners. My name is Hassan Hussaini, I am a, my day job is a national negotiator with the public service Alliance of Canada, which is the largest federal public sector union in Canada. As such, I'm also unionized member of Unifor local 2025, Unifor as the merger of a couple of private sector unions in Canada, one of them being the Canadian auto workers that split from the American auto workers union back in the 80s. And I am also a member of the National Steering Committee of Labor for Palestine Canada, I've been active in social justice and labor movement for 30 plus maybe more years.

4:12How could you be here? Thank you. My folks, my name is Tina O, my pronouns as she heard. I'm joining in from Halifax, Nova Scotia here in eastern Canada. My role is organizing coordinator with service employees, international union local two, where the only national SEIU division in Canada. But I also have a role as vice president for eastern Canada, so the region is all of Atlanta Canada, Newfoundland, PI, New Brentswick, and Nova Scotia. I'm really happy to be here. Hey y'all, I'm Alex Raymond, I am a mental health worker out of Richmond, Virginia, United States, and I am just a regular worker organizer, very new to the labor space, but very fired up to be here. My name is Cole Rocker, I'm current answer they them, and I am a long time union staffer, although that the veteran brand doesn't sit well when Hassan's in the room. I've been working for labor unions for the past 10 years,

5:16and that's been in Canada and the US, and I'm now a labor educator at a health care union in Los Angeles. And I am the author of the forthcoming book, Faradah Butt Unions, which is about why young people can change the working world and the labor movement. Oh yes, maybe we need an updated taxonomy. We got veterans here, and then we got legends, you know, with Hassan. So, you know, we got the full spectrum here, baby, and I'm so grateful to have all of you on and to hear all of your perspectives on, you know, this important subject. So I want to dive right in and ask y'all, like, what have unions meant to you over your lifetime? Like, what did you know or not know about unions before being part of one? And I'm asking that is someone who does a labor show now, but new jack shit about unions for most of my life. I kind of wanted just directly responding to that. Like, that was sort of my experience that that labor organizing in mental health, that that's really not a thing. But over the years that I've

6:24been in this industry, almost 15 years coming up this November, you know, we just see wages decrease the amount of patients or clients that we're responsible for increase expectations going up, well, benefits go down. And a lot of us kind of let just silently accept that. Like, we get into this line of work because we care. And it almost feels like a betrayal to the work that we're so committed to to even think that better as possible. But it had always been a discussion. And growing up like my dad, he was an organizer with FC IU in Boston during his presidency. And he would always tell me this story when he, you know, was laid off for labor organizing that it was just the proudest moment of his professional life when all of his co-workers came to his Shady Boston apartment and they essentially shut the hospital down. There was a lot of anxiety about what

7:24that would do to patients. But there was a lot of camaraderie. And that's something that's missing nowadays. Like we're struggling to get by and we deserve better. And I think that sort of bubbled up over the last couple of years and a group of us caught together a couple of years back. And we started working icing from the ground up literally googling how to make union. And we came into contact with a lot of people that have a lot of expertise and they got us. We needed all the help we can get. And we went from zero union density to more than zero and growing each and every month. And we formed the union here in Richmond, Virginia with Teamsters Local 322. And now there are unions with united automotive workers within our industry as well as national union of healthcare workers and united food and commercial workers. And we thought to learn what all those acronyms mean and what they can mean for people in our field. And it's been a huge thing. But from my

8:30perspective growing up, I'd always thought that was such an important thing to do but just never really knew how to go about doing it. From my experience way back when I first began unionized. And I think it's still with us today. The thinking about unions is that it's only about money. It's only going to give you put more money in your pocket by increasing your wages from what you had before you were unionized. And to be the thing that struck me and I think it's still with me today and in the organizing campaigns that I was involved in. It is really important for us to recognize and talk to workers about the fact that it's about increasing your power in the workplace. It is about working class empowerment. And it is about some of the things that call just trying to offer the respect to health and safety with respect to being valued in the workplace,

9:31giving you voice on so many different committees and taking away the power, the exclusive power that bosses have without a union. So I didn't know that at the beginning. I came in, I thought, okay, my wage will go up a little bit. Not knowing that it's going to give me so much more empowerment both individually and as a collective within the workplace. And that is something that opened my eyes to huge possibilities for that particular workplace I was in but for the working class generally. And that lesson is still with me up to this point. I think things are getting even worse in terms of capitalist bosses propaganda that we can give you a little bit of a bump in your wages. You don't have to go to unions because they know that when you unionize, you have more power in the workplace. And that's what scares the shit out in. Hassan, I'm just going to piggyback off that because I think that last point you just mentioned about how non-union workers are still gaining and benefiting off the wins of union workers is so relevant. And I think that's how I want to

10:34answer this question. It's going to take me a second to get there, but I'll get there. So my family moved to Edmonton, Alberta when I was two years old. My sister was five and it was just my mom and my dad. There was no other kind of family support systems that my parents had in Canada, nor in Edmonton, so that many non-economic migrants that meant working traditionally low-wage service jobs. My parents have never worked a union job in their working careers in this country. And one of my dad's longest-held jobs was as a housekeeper and a janitor at the western hotel. And that was a non-union job, but the reason why that's relevant is that that job, even though it was non-union, it was the first job that my dad had that gave us health benefits. It was the job that ended up getting us permanent residency so that we could stay in the country. And the reason why, of course, that connects to unions is because the work of the private sector hotel unions that have raised the industry standards to the point that these non-union hotels

11:40cannot recruit workers without offering health benefits, without offering them a pathway to permanent residency. And so I think about that job, especially now that I work for a janitor's union, SEIU local to half of our membership is janitors, private sector contracted out janitors. And now that I'm in this role, and I think back to my childhood, and the whores really, that my parents had to face in their working careers, I know absolutely without a doubt in my mind that our lives would have been better had my dad had a union at that hotel. Or any union, really. And at the same time, I also can see how our lives still greatly benefited from the wins of the working class that have progressed the labor movement to the point where non-union jobs are still offering health benefits and whatnot. So I just wanted to leave that there. I think for me, it's a bit of a combination of all these things. As my co-podcasters have just said,

12:46like a union can be the difference between having health care or not, having benefits or not. When I was younger, I didn't realize that my mom was unionized. She was a teacher for many years before she retired. And it wasn't until I started getting involved in my student movement. And in Canada, the student union system is quite different than in the US. And I think the US should absolutely steal this idea from Canada. But many of our student organizations that fight for lower tuition fees or free tuition or more rights for international students for different campaigns of equity on campuses are unionized. So my first foray into having a union was starting to work at the student union and run all these campaigns as a student organizer. And so it wasn't until I started getting involved that I had this conversation with my mom about, oh, you know, there's the

13:48union like. And I was told to go to a meeting because there's free pizza. I wanted free pizza. And she said, oh, yeah, I've been involved in my union. I was a shop steward. I was like, what the hell is a shop steward? What does it not even mean? And it's essentially the person that represents the workplace while they're actually working in there. And you can go to them with questions about your contract or different issues you're having. And I said, what do you like? What? You were a shop steward. She was like, yeah, I used to carry the book and the book is the contract. And I said, I didn't know that. She said, yeah, I've been out on strike. I've been on the picket line. And so it was years later that I realized like, oh, my God, my parent has been a union member has fought for these things. And it's because of her that I have the life that I have. It's always so fascinating to me to hear stories like yours. And the stories that folks

14:55have shared with me on the show for the past nine seasons, right? I was tell folks that, you know, I am endlessly fascinated in the stories of our fellow workers who take that step to do something to change their conditions. Cause I lived most of my life not knowing that that was an option. You know, like most people in this country, I'm talking about the US here. You know, when I had crappy jobs, whether they were in service or, you know, factories, warehouses, retail, I thought I only had two options, right? If the job sucked, I could either just stay, grin and bear it or leave and try to find something better. I didn't know there was a secret third thing you could do. And like, you know, you know, band together with your coworkers and fight back and, and stay in fight to improve things. And so to me, anyone who takes that step, especially in a country where working people are so routinely reminded, uh, and conditioned to believe that we are powerless. Anyone who says otherwise

16:02and does otherwise to me is a hero. And not just that, but like the way it changes your perspective on things to, to take that step to organize, to bring your boss to the bargaining table. Like that really changes a lot of the ways that you look at the world and yourself and the work that you do. And I wanted to kind of turn that into a question for you all. Like you talked about this a bit in the first round, but I wanted to ask if you could go a little deeper and say like how it changes your life at work and beyond when you become part of a union or join a union drive. Like did it change the way that you guys all look at your own work in life when you did that? For me as a young person that started labor work, I think I was 21 at the time when I first got my union job. And of course previous today, I was part of the student union like Kool was and, uh, you know, we're living in a time where obviously, you know, we can talk about all these crises that are happening global crises to mention that. And union work really helped make the world make more sense. That makes sense.

17:11And I think a lot of young people and when I reflect back to, you know, what I was thinking through when I was 21 and I'm not saying obviously I've got it all figured out now. Certainly don't, but I think a lot of young people are probably really confused and puzzled by all these kind of disparate crises when obviously they're all interconnected. And maybe we could even say that they are interconnected. But it wasn't really until I really immersed myself and understood how power works and the history of the gains that workers have made to really push the needle to where we are today. Things really just started to click, you know, and and now when kind of a new crisis happens in the world, it's just less confusing for me. And I think that's relevant because that feeling of hopelessness, I think really gets reigned in when you're in a fighting union because that fighting union is then about solutions. And it's about optimism and it's about hope and, uh, and it's also about like,

18:13yeah, we might lose, but we're just going to get back up the next day and and fight again. And so that clarity really became clear when I was part of a union drive and helping workers form unions at their workplace and and seeing the transformation happen to them was so transformative for me because I'm seeing it in real time, ordinary people coming together to do extraordinary things. Yeah, Tina, um, hearing you say that, like, especially that piece about, like, hopelessness was something that was like deeply more so than I think I've even been aware of, um, in my, my personal experience of work and working up until like the idea that there could be something better came up in my working with this, this organizing that we've done recently, meeting people across the country that are fighting for change and are in the exact same position, like, we are inexperienced, we are outnumbered, uh, we year, we are dealing with like a very effectively organized, uh, managerial group that like wants nothing more than to see us lose, um,

19:18and then seeing people like, you know, Sean and Noah out in Massachusetts, workers out in California coming together, uh, Jane and and Colin out in Maryland, all these different people that I would not have met had not been for this organizing work. Um, changed a lot of that whole business into like a deep sense of optimism that's going to be really, really hard to lose. And, and that I think is the most important way in my life is changed since, since participating in organizing. Um, and I see it, you know, at home at work, like, we have this current style of people coming in and out of care work and health care. And it's hard on us, like we're job hopping a lot, but it's really, really hard on the clients that we serve. We work predominantly for like little kids and somebody comes in, they build a relationship with you, and then you can't afford to work the job anymore, you get burned out and, uh, that's, that's devastating for those young people. And we want to change that. And since we've started organizing,

20:24we're seeing turnover rates decrease, these people believe that better is possible. And that possibility is brought into existence through our collective action, like we alone can't formulate what a solution might look like, but collectively we've found answers and we put them into practice. Not just in one location, but in lots of other locations. And we're seeing people pick up the banner with us. And it's just been one of the most inspiring, if not the most profound experiences of my life. And hearing you speak on that just reminds me why I'm part of this fight. This is a really good segue because most of you have done the organizing parts, right, which is the hard part to organize workers into unions. My role as a national negotiator is that I come in to work with these newly organized group of workers to get in place a first collective agreement,

21:27which is challenging in and of its own. But it's during the negotiations for a collective agreement. Well, actually it is during the organizing drive that you see their power and a recognition of the power that they have really come into fruition. But it is also a different kind of a very, very rewarding process when you're working with collectively with workers trying to get a new collective agreement and seeing the bosses push back, right, to put language and collective agreements that gives them more rights, more power is more protections, more provisions. This is where you see that they are solidifying their power in the workplace. And there's nothing like it because at times when we're negotiating new terms and I've negotiated terms in the and you collected agreement in the university sector and the gaming industry. Right now I have a group of firefighters in an indigenous community in southwestern Ontario that I just came back from starting negotiations with them. And you'll see that there are questions is that what do you mean we

22:31can put language in the collective agreement that is better than the minimum standards? It's like yes, that's that's you're organized in order to do that. Minimum standards you're protected by it anyway. But your collective agreement you realize on your power in the workplace, your power in the community. And you see the relationship with their co-workers, their relationship with the boss, their relationship with the community completely changes. It gives them the confidence, it gives them the power, it gives them that that that the power that comes with the fact that when they're sitting on the bargaining table, right, no matter what they're equals to that boss. And of course, for the boss, you know, goes back to the workplace, they try to play games, but but you you cannot put back what is that expression, the genie in a bottle or something, they recognize their power and they're willing to take that extra steps in order to to to keep building on it and to demonstrate it in the workplace and outside the workplace. And there's nothing, nothing absolutely nothing like it

23:31when work is recognized on our Martinez original point, recognize the power that they have in the workplace and in the community. And I'm privileged, I feel that I get to work with with workers to try put together collective agreements that give them that that extra power. Yeah, I'll just pick up on something Hassan said in his current negotiations about raising the minimum standards. And, you know, as organizers and workers, we talk about expectations a lot. And great folks have written about raising expectations. So I won't go into too much of that. But when people realize that not only can they raise the floor at their job, like Alex said, that he could change the mental healthcare industry and the ability for him to have consistency with his clients, with the kids

24:32that he's trying to serve, you know, that's very mission driven work, right? And we see all the time workers in organizing drives, particularly in healthcare. But lots of places, education, where they say, well, I don't know if I can do this because I would put the kids or the patients or whoever it is at risk. But a lot of these campaigns are about connecting, well, this would actually make things way more sustainable for the work that I'm trying to do. This would make me stay, this would help raise my wage so I could provide for my family. All of these things go back to that question of power, right? And so when I think about how it changed the way I look at work in life, particularly now coming from Canada and the US, there is an entire industry that is dedicated to crushing workers' ability to do this. And it has a lot of money behind it. It has a lot of

25:38politicians behind it. I mean, the US, we look at right-to-work states. We look at what is going on in Alberta, Canada right now and the attacks on trying to privatize our healthcare, which is a big no-no in Canada. We workers, workers historically fought for all these things to get a public healthcare system to get funding. And so I think this will go to a little bit about the power that we're up against. But we also talk about how we don't have, and it's because of people crushing unions, we don't have a lot of money. We don't have the ability to match dollar for dollar what our bosses are doing. But what we do have is people power. And so I think it's, I was lucky enough to get into it at 20. But since moving here, even in the past few years, I've completely changed the way that I see power and what workers are up against as well.

26:41Yeah, man. I mean, like in the good old US of A, right, I mean, we have many rights on paper, but not in reality, right? And I'm constantly telling folks that you have a right to be a part of and form a union and collectively bargain in your workplace in this country. But in this country, that's like basically saying that Frodo Baggins has a right to go into more door, right? I mean, the type of the opposition that you're going to face, the pain that you're going to be put through, the system that's going to chew you up and spit you out just for exercising that right is going to take a lot from you and your co-workers and you need to be prepared for that. And that's kind of what I wanted to talk about here in this round, right? Like let's talk about the hard stuff, you know, because we've seen over the past few years, over the course of me doing this show. I've heard it in the stories we've reported, right? This

27:46this boom in energy around new labor organizing, you know, from the Starbucks workers to the Amazon workers, to the independent union movements, to the revivals within the established unions, like the UAW, the teamsters, you know, some of the historic, you know, strikes that have happened in Canada, you know, in the past five years, you know, a lot is clearly happening. But at the same time, I think a lot of folks who got swept up in that energy over the past five years have also come to the hard kind of realities of unions are perfect. Labor law is stacked against you, you know, like there's going to be a whole lot of crap that you're going to have to go through, but it is worth it. And so I want to talk about that with you guys and sort of like, you know, address head on these real issues that folks, you know, have had or will face when trying to organize. So like, let's talk about what people are really going to be up against when they try to

28:49unionize today in the US or Canada. And what is like, if someone's listening to this, what do they do when their union sucks or, or, you know, union officials break their heart and screw them over? You're right. A lot, there are a lot of unions that to put it in your words, you know, can break your heart. But I always say having a union, even a shitty union is better than not having a union at all, right? Because even with a shitty union, there are mechanisms that you can do internally within your union in order to challenge those leaderships that are not willing to fight, a good fight on your behalf, but collectively on behalf of all the workers and the community, right? So definitely, I think we're all on the same page or should be on the same page that unions are better than, you know, no unions whatsoever. But we also need to recognize that there are a lot of, uh, uh, sell out unions, okay, or leaderships within unions that are no longer willing to fight a good fight. They've become part of the institutionalized capitalist system. Uh, they've lost the

29:54division. They don't advance anything more than protecting their careers. And they have forgotten that unions are after all also political organizations of the working class, right? And they've lost that. And that's where you see some unions or some leadership within unions, making decisions that end up harming, uh, workers that they're supposed to represent. But it's not the end of the world because I always say that what you need to do as workers, the union is yourself. So you organize internally, right? And you organize in order to bring democracy back into your, your, your union and your workplace. And you organize to take over, to take back, okay, those unions and from those careerist elements within the, the union movement, those who are willing to and understand and have class consciousness. And they are fighting a class war for, you know, to go back to the classics. This is the reality of it. And they're not going to

30:56advance a lot of workers if they compromise with the employer on some fundamental issues, okay? And, and so our work is promised on the fact that we believe in the power of workers. But we also need to be very realistic about what kind of unions we're dealing with. And, and also in my work in organizing in solidarity with the Palestinian Liberation's trouble, and Palestinian workers, we, we, we, I've, I've realized that the connection between those unions who are, are taking better positions in solidarity with international workers around the world is very much connected to how much they're willing to fight for their own members and, and for the working class in Canada or the US. And those who are have sold out when it comes to the class struggle in their own workplaces and communities and, and in Canada and the US, you find them that they're not willing to actually be in solidarity internationally. They may pay lip service, but they don't do anything concretely to honor that global picket line of the

32:01Palestinian people. And as it was before, and the people of South Africa, the father came to apartheid. So they're connected. Good fighting working class unions that have clarity of purpose, okay, are also clear on the local, on the national and on the international issues. And we have no choice but to continue to fight a good fight internally to make sure that they stay on the straight path or the left path, rather. I want to hear from you, Alex. Yeah, I'm, I'm itching to jump in on this one. Yeah. So like, how, how, you know, what you're up against? Like, you know, you hear, especially when you're new to this, you know, like, hey, like there's the NLRB, you know, that you have these rights and the NLRB will, you know, adjudicate if there's any unfair, you know, action taken against you by your employer. But my boss, Lindsey Thompson straight up fired me in writing for labor organizing. And that's still in NLRB hell. And we're expecting a ruling, you know, any decade now, probably

33:0720, 30, 5, 20, 45, my grandkids will get a decision passed down. So, I mean, that's the reality of it. And I've got some comrades that have, have similarly, you know, experienced like pretty, pretty nefarious dealings from their employer because who's, who's going to stop them? Like, they fire you? You're kind of done for. And then on, on the yields of that, my union internally was going to do a little bit of drama precisely when I got fired. And that happened to create like a really perfect storm that weakened our bargaining unit and set us up for a lot of trouble going into 2026. But what is the solution? You know, to quote the adage, don't mourn, organize. And I remind myself that these, these things, these institutions that exist today were built by the literal blood of people that were massacred and organizing

34:10in significantly difficult, more difficult conditions today. Like, I lost a job, I got a new job. You know, I wasn't, you know, brutalized in the ways that you can counter in the history books. So, not discounting the struggles that the people are facing today, it's just that the solution remains the same, which is you organize. And my union, we, we organized internally, brought it up to the local president. They got it fixed. He's out there on the line with us, you know, every opportunity, skyd, and they've done an incredible amount to organize with us. And not just, you know, Brian Peyton with, with Teamsters Local 322 and a huge chunk of amazing UPS workers, Jennifer Hancock, those folks coming out, making sure that we're all right in that this group of workers gets represented fairly. But the international brotherhood of electrical workers, especially their caucus of rank and file electrical workers, it's an internal caucus that has come together

35:12and shown up for workers in Richmond and across the country in really profound ways. Like, if there's a worker struggle in town, there's going to be hard hats there. And I think it's that kind of ethos that we need to really embrace. Like, one worker's struggle is my struggle. And it's been really hard. There was an understandable amount of kind of almost desperation when we did everything right. And the employer is just able to break every rule and get away with it. But I think it's taught us a very valuable lesson, which is that, you know, you don't just win a vote and then you're all done. You organize not just to win a contract, but then to enforce it and then to be able to have the capacity to show up for other workers because there's not just one fight and then you're done. This is a global fight. The cause of every member of the working class is our cause. So this is

36:13the fight of a lifetime, not just for a contract or a vote or some particular grievance. So I think it's been hard, but we've learned a lot of lessons and we're continuing to learn. And a lot of that is because of the very cool people that are on this panel today. So shout out to y'all. Well, and, you know, obviously, the fact that we have such an incredible panel of folks from Canada and the US and Cole, you came from Canada to the US. Like I was wondering if you could also sort of wrap into this question like the differences of the situations and the kind of things that folks are going to face in the US versus Canada while we're answering this question. Absolutely. I think I have two different parts to this answer. The first is that I think in Canada, we have a different history. When it comes to not only our labor movement, but our political parties,

37:14I think in the US, you folks are locked into the two party hell. That is the Democrats and the Republicans. Our system in Canada is multi-party and we had a labor movement that formed a political party that became the new Democratic Party, the NDP. And those were the folks I mentioned earlier that led to Medicare health care being public in this country. And I say that not to give a knighthood to politicians because we know that everything that we've won in any country has come from workers pushing for that and pressuring that and always will be always has been. So I think that's one of the big differences. Obviously in the negotiation realm, when you don't have to think about Medicare or health care being part of the contract, and you can instead think about the things in Canada that haven't gotten into that system like

38:18drug care prescriptions, it changes the negotiation landscape for sure. I think the other big difference is the matter of density. And I mentioned the word density earlier, but that is how many workers percentage wise are unionized within a given population. So in Canada, that is much, much higher. In the US, it's like brutal and it shows all of the things that have. Well below 10% now, I believe. As correct. And I'll just say to your listeners, the Economic Policy Institute put out this amazing report about what would change if union density in the US was higher. And the reality is we would have health care. We would have about give or take 7,000 extra dollars a year in your pocket. And I don't know about anyone else on this call, but I think people could use 7,000 plus dollars a year. And that's 7,000 dollars a year that you would get like in your

39:24contract versus the kind of like fantastical fake $5,000 that President Trump is promising you, if you just believe him and vote the way he wants in the midterms. Exactly. And I'll just say quickly on that studies have shown that in countries where there are strong labor movements, there are more democracies. Even if we look at the US, we see that in right to work states, there are more attacks right now on the voting system than there are in states with higher union density. And so that's kind of the first part of the answer to my question. But the second part is, you know, how is Canada and the US different? They're not like workers in Canada and workers in the US coming from both places. They're not that different. They want the same things. They want higher wages. They want benefits. They want good jobs. And they want clean air. And for the AI

40:26overlords to not ruin the planet and put a data center in their backyard. And so same as it ever was, like workers no matter the country, if they can get enough power, they can change things and make things better. Everything, yes, that call just said 1000%. I just want to say like genuinely, you know, SEIU is a, like, it's a, it's a giant of a union, you know, one of the biggest in the US. And so when I look at my comrades in the US, not just in SEIU, but US unions in general, like, you know, I really don't have a problem in saying, like, I genuinely think it is harder to organize in the US than it is in Canada. And I don't mean to say that as like, you know, good or bad, as simple as that. But, you know, I think where in Canada, workers have made gains like card check, which is a one step unionization system, all you have to do is sign a union card. There's no vote where there are successor rights in the three biggest provinces of our country. So Quebec,

41:27Ontario, BC, the most populated provinces have successor rights. That means contracted workers when there's contract flip, the new employer has to hire them on and keep their contract, right? But, you know, those are two really sizable genuinely, like, those are huge wins, legislative wins that workers have have made in this country. And it has, for maybe like, you know, a less sophisticated word, I think it does actually produce some lazy organizing when I compare it to my comrades in the US who have to strike for recognition or, you know, right to work states where, you know, the dues aren't guaranteed. And, and, and part of that lazy organizing is, it can get dangerous, of course, because we know, just as Cole said, the bosses are the same, the power that they have will absolutely crush us, our dollars can't compete, our legal can't compete. And so when organizers on the ground, whether it's a member organizer, worker organizer,

42:30staff organizer is taking these shortcuts, we know we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna get hit by those shortcuts down the road because a fight is coming guys, right? A fight is always coming. And, and so I think it's just a, it's a really important, I think, moment for Canadian, Canada-based organizers, where even though we've made those gains like card check and successor, that we do the right thing, which is to develop and recruit the best leaders we can in our organizations, right? And, and keep it a fighting organization. And that means, yes, there might be shortcuts, but we're actually gonna do the really rigorous spade work that is required to build a fighting union. Hell yeah, I thought it was all, you know, beautifully and powerfully put y'all in like, I, you know, bears mentioning that, you know, you could say the same thing about unions here, just a little farther back in our history, right? I mean, like, you know, the, the union density

43:34in this country at its height was around 30% or a little over, right? I mean, unions built the middle class, they gave us the weekends, you know, we know all the talking points, but then that middle class gave up on the struggle. They cared more about like their middle class existence, their specific contracts, they lost that sense of working class solidarity. And here we are, you know, 40, 30 years later, with the results union density below 10%, wages, you know, like have been stagnant or declining, cost of living has been going up. Power has been shifting to the top away from the bottom, like, so I think the real takeaway message from Canada to the US to everywhere is don't get complacent, right? You know, like the struggle has to continue. And I could genuinely talk to you guys for hours about how to continue that struggle. And, and, you know, I'm so grateful for the conversation that we've had, but I know we have to wrap up here. And so I wanted to finish with sort of like a big picture question that y'all have touched on in this conversation, but like,

44:39for folks who are listening to this right now and saying like, yeah, that that all sounds great, but like, why should I care about unions now in the year of our Lord 2026 when the world is on fire and everything sucks and these oligarch nut jobs are taking over everything and destroying the planet. So what would you say to folks in closing, you know, who are still kind of in that headspace? Yeah, what I would say is why should care about a union now is because things have already gotten to a point where we're feeling the everyday economic ramifications of those decisions. And, you know, whatever inertia is kind of keeping us moving in this direction, if we can overcome that, if we can come together, we can identify any solutions that need to be found and start putting them into practice so that we can build the future that we want to be part of. And I know that sounds like fanciful language, but you know, every small step in the right direction is also a step

45:46we're not taking in the wrong direction. And it feels difficult, it feels impossible, it feels exhausting when you think about it individual terms, but you're not alone. People like me don't know a ton. I'm sitting on a panel today with Hassan, Cole, Tina, and UMax. And there's a lot of expertise out there and you're not alone. So nothing weaker than the feeble strength of one. We got this together. Very briefly, I think that for all the reasons that you spoke about meximity and it's for all these reasons because the world is run by not oligarchs, it's for the reason that they're destroying the planet. The reason that we have Trump in the White House and Mark Carney in Ottawa that are governing on behalf of banks and corporations and the super rich, it's for all these reasons that we need unions. If for nothing else to equalize things, to make sure that they fight for

46:50for working people on the shop floor, but also they continue to fight for better society. For all the working class and also they continue to make sure that international solidarity is not just a performative thing, but a real element of the work of unions. And without unions and without organizing and without that kind of mass democratic organizations that we value so much that we will fall back even more. And so from that perspective, and because of that unions are a lot more critical than in my opinion, they were 50 years ago or 60 or 70 years ago. And we finish on the adage again that an injured one is an injured to all. So this is not about an individual protection, it's about a collective work and collective organizing and collective protection and collective empowerment. I think a good union organizer knows how to answer any question with the answer being union.

47:54And so to me, it's why should people care about unions? Well, it's less about why people should care about unions more about do you want a better life for you and your family and your loved ones? If so, the only answer is union. I believe that. We just talked about the trickle-down effects of increasing union density is that we live in a better society. There's healthcare improvements, education improvements, life expectancy, I'm sure. And so I think that question that Cole talked about workers in US, Canada across any border, they want a better life for themselves and their families. I don't know a single ordinary working person that doesn't. And the answer to that question is going to be union. Couldn't agree more. I think the answer is unions. Like if we look at the world being on fire, what's going to protect workers that are going out in increasingly record

48:57breaking heat working outside, if they're, you know, postal worker, construction laborer? What is going to do that is the boss can say, oh, I'm recognizing it's a bit hot and unsafe out there. This doesn't need to get built today. This work doesn't need to get done. No, bosses are going to continue to try and extract as much as they can. So that's one example. If we look at, you know, this mass global movement in many countries, unionized dock workers have stopped the ports and refused to unload Israeli cargo. You know, the struggle of the anti-war movement, the struggle for basic protections of not dying on the job. And yes, like the individual and materialistic thing of wanting more money in your bank account so you can pay your rent,

49:58so you can buy food so you can get the basic necessities. All comes from having a strong resourced infrastructure and the only thing that working people have in this country right now is a union. And so that would be my answer. Why should you care about unions now? It is literally the only thing that working people have on our side. And that's not big union. That's you and your coworkers coming together to push for more and to fight the boss and to hopefully win. All right gang, that's going to wrap things up for us today. I want to thank our guests, Hassan Hussaini of the Public Service Alliance of Canada and Labor for Palestine Canada, Tina O of SEIU Local 2 in Halifax Canada, Alex Raymond of Teamsters Local 322 in Virginia and Cole Rockhardt's

51:00Veteran Labor Educator and Organizer and author of the excellent new book, Fired Up About Unions, which everyone should go read. And you can learn more about the book using the links that we provided in the show notes for this episode. And of course, I want to thank you all for listening and I want to thank you for caring about this. We do this work for you but we cannot do it without you. Working people is brought to you in partnership within these times magazine and the Real News Network. The show is produced by the great jewels Taylor and is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast Network. We'll see y'all back here next time for another episode of Working People. And in the meantime, go explore all the great work that we're doing weekly at the Real News Network where we do grassroots reporting that lifts up the voices and stories of people on the frontlines of struggle around the US and across the world. Subscribe to our YouTube channel, check out our great podcasts like Under the Shadow and the March Steiner Show and connect with us on social media and

52:04get updates on our reporting there and help us do more work like this by going to therealnews.com forward slash donate and becoming a supporter today it really really makes a difference. I'm Max Emilio Nalvarez take care of yourselves take care of each other solidarity forever. I live on wherever I'm home. We're hungry. I live just as homeless. Home is in peace. It's song I live on yes I live on well mean things to happen in this land is read a song I live on yes I live on whatever the book means things I happen in this land is read I live on yes I live on

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