Unpacking: Sibiya arrest | Feroz Khan to Madlanga Commission

0:00This week in South Africa has been very eventful. From the arrest of General Shadraxibia to information coming out around Senzo Mkunum and he seized cell phone records, the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry not only returning, a key figures emerging not only at the Commission but in New Surrounding the Commission, breaking the headlines. This week's Friday wrap up, we're going to be breaking it down. Let's get into it. Spread the fire and welcome back to SMWX. My name is Utsileng Karimeng and today I am joined by producer extraordinaire, the second Don Fada of SMWX, the one and only Uratile Kekana. Come at the man, come at the hour. Hey bro, double those specials. So finally people can stop the confusion or maybe this makes it worse. We'll have to see. Guys, if you still get it wrong after today,

1:00I am hopeless. You are hopeless. You are helpless. You are one of those people big guy that I was talking about. He says that can't hit no board. It's the person who uses it. What a week. Bro, what a week. I think I want to start with actually Shadraxibia because I think that was the breaking news of this week. So we heard news breaking that he was arrested in a Johannesburg gentleman establishment. He was arrested in a strip club. Guys, I tried to sprain the flashes. He was arrested in a strip club on some very unsavory charges, allegations relating to sexual assault. He appeared in the Randberg magistrates court. Now, he's arrest coming at a time where even at the Madlanger Commission of Inquiry solidifying evidence around him having received goods such as impalas and other specialized game as reported payment by certain individuals,

2:06connections to Vosmosa Cat Maggala and other underworld figures really solidifying in the web. But I think where I want to start is on this arrest and what it means because this is someone who is not only a senior Sapsofficial but had he not come up in Madlanger processes but Fanny Masemullah still went down. He'd likely be the acting national police commissioner. What do you make of not only his arrest but some of the rumours swirling around about the motives for why you move on Sibia now? Yeah, firstly, I remember that video of that raid that was happening at Sibia's house. Just outside his house when you're speaking to the media and he said they mustn't come to him at night and shoot him and say that he was reaching for a gun. They must come during the day and during the day they did come. But I think as you say that context is very important because for me, if you are general Sibia and you've got the scrutiny around you and your name for the last couple of months now leading up to a year through the Langer Commission, you've got stories about the embarras,

3:10you've got alleged improper relationships with people like Vosimusikad Matala, your name has come up several times at the Commission of Inquiry. Why would you not lay low in situations like that? And I mean understanding also that we're dealing with the situation that involves miners. But I would have expected General Sibia not that there's any reason to commit the crimes that he's allegedly committed because we've got to also understand that at this point it's still all allegations that will go through the necessary processes in court. But I can't understand for the life of me how you would want this kind of public attention on your name if you're already someone who's under scrutiny. Not just public attention, but public attention for allegedly sexually grooming, raping and trafficking involving miners. Sure. And the worst thing is a person in his position say you assume that person is innocent.

4:11Their conduct should be becoming of someone who is expecting vindication and would not want to warrant any further scrutiny. So the way in which he's conducted himself already up to this point does not leave people at least in my mind, doesn't leave many people in question of is he a person who we think is capable of this. But we heard around he's a rest at that time. A person he was with one bishop Lawrence Maumela saying that the motives for Sibia's a rest were not on the face of any real credible charges but that these were rather motivated by internal sub-slash government, factual battles for the leadership and succession of leadership within the SAP. And that this was a deliberate political coordinated effort to try sideline Sibia from being a credible contender going forward. I mean it's not like the madlanger process looked like it was going

5:14to vindicate the guy. I mean yeah, no, sure. So where do you actually put that? Because it's not just unique to the Sibia matter. I mean lots of top sub-sufficient who have been cornered by their colleagues arresting them or otherwise. The allegation around the motives for their arrests always sent around that same thing. This is political. It's not fair. It's not this. It's not that. I mean in Dumasani Komalos case, I mean, yeah, the Idax dream seemed to show credibility to that. But what's your preliminary initial read on that with Sibia? Yeah, you let me know what you think. But for me, I think it's actually quite unfortunate that Bishop Mahmela, I think, his name, came out and suggested that this has got to do with some sort of succession battles within the SAP. Why I think it's unfortunate? Number one, as I mentioned already, this is already a case that involves minor children. Not only that, but it is serious allegations of sexual grooming, sexual

6:16assault. So for me, for someone who doesn't seem to be, I'm not official of the South African Police Service, wouldn't have any inside information really credible as to what the ins and outs of this case is would come out in public to the media to say basically that this is no merit to it. This is all about a succession battle. Not taking, you know, mind and thought to the families and the children of the alleged victims in this case. For me, it was quite unfortunate that he actually came out and alluded to the fact that this is some sort of succession battle. And I think room moves the focus off of the greater issue. And this obviously also happens on the backdrop of the Iqroulini murders. Sure. That have been, you know, in the limelight over the past couple of weeks. And to have the second, probably one of the second most powerful, suspended, yes, police officials in the country, a general accused of one of the most heinous crimes being done against women right

7:19now is something of a shortcut. Sure. Before I move to Senzo Mkuno matter, you know, I think generally for any South African looking at this, this is not only something that just further goes on to undermine trust, credibility, or any form of basic faith you could have in SEPS and some of its leadership. And I know maybe it's unfair, you know, you're judging the entire apple cart on the face of a few rotten apples. But I mean, to it's it's crazy to think that someone at that level could be capable of allegedly doing something of this nature. Yeah. And the impunity with which his friends and some of his own colleagues who have come to speak up for him on social media. Listen, I think there's a need within SEPS to properly have an internal dialogue around.

8:24If we want to continue to be credibly seen as law enforcement in South Africa and we want people to continue to have any form of faith in us that we are the protectors of the unprotected in our society, then there needs to be that conversation around what sort of conduct does that become because in South Africa we make jokes about the Coca-Cola and the traffic stop. Yeah. But I want to ask you something. And obviously I don't want us to, I'm not asking you to speculate, but understanding that yes, General Sibia is suspended, but he held the position or still does just under suspension of Deputy National Commissioner, you know, in crime detection. So for Regan's Ex crime intelligence, all that apple stuff falls under his kind of his umbrella of portfolios that he looks after. Given his, I'd say power and influence, whether suspended or not within the South African

9:25Police Service, do you think that that is a major factor that will play out not only in this case, but in other cases that might come given his implications at the Madagascar Commission? Because I'll tell you why I ask, is we've always been told that the PKTT has this methodology where they'll arrest you for something, but while they investigate for something else, the same thing happened with Vussi Mosee Katnatala, when he was arrested, he wasn't arrested for 360 million rent tender fraud in the SAPS. So I don't know, do you think the power and the influence will play a role? If there's one thing I've learned, or at least one thing I've started to see play out, is that in this web, the higher you go, the more interests you're either attached to or you help serve. So for someone in Sibia's position, I mean, second highest cop suspended, you know, these suspended guys,

10:27they still get their salary. Everyone is on suspended. How many, how many, how many people do we have suspended that are paid by government, you know, taxpayers money? Go to Subs HQ, how do the offices there guys? Who needs co-working space when Subs has empty offices? But I think the higher you go, the more interests you're attached to. And as a result of that, depending on what could potentially be unearthed in having a serious investigation of Shadrach Sibia as an individual and where his links and patronage networks tie, I think there is a vested interest in some quarters of society to protect them. And this is the special interests. But at the same time, I do think, though, that for someone in his position to end up in the compromising place that he is in now, it's it's logical to think that there is a counter interest to his that's competing against whatever he

11:30represents, whatever gender he's going to go on. And that one is deliberately to neutralize him as a viable contender, not only as a successor to Fani Masemullah. I mean, the charges against him are withdrawn, but it's yet to be seen whether or not he will resume his post. But in that case, even if he doesn't, Shadrach Sibia is the second highest. The case could still be made, but it could everything that's happening around him now be read as a deliberate effort to try remove him from the succession. Because I mean, you saw with Dumsani Kumar, that's what they try to do. The leaving entire IDAC investigation work, we're going to get to Ferros Khan later on in this conversation, but the involvement of other people at a lower level in Saps, some higher, but lower level really and the investigative arms of the state, colluding. And you know, the Madeline

12:31Commission has just demonstrated one strong idea to me. And that is nothing ever really meets what we see on the eye. Like if the expression never judge a book by its cover, we're brought to life. It's this face value. These guys are corrupt. And then a few months later, we learn, it's not the case. True. True. Not the case. Because another reason why I asked that was because what we also know is that the Commission's recommendation task team, which investigates, you know, parallel to the Madeline Commission happening. Yeah. Implications coming from the Commission is the one that was investigating this case. And I think a police spokesperson Brigadier Tlendammate confirmed that because there was such a sensitive investigation, it was investigated by the Commission's recommendations task team. So hence why I thought, okay, is are we seeing something because the Commission is not necessarily investigating or within its terms of reference investigating what General Sebiya has been arrested for. But I thought maybe

13:32perhaps because we've heard about this PKTT methodology of arresting you for another crime that you might have committed while they are strengthening the case against you. I thought this was what is happening. We saw that in the AKA murder as well, where the some of the suspects were ready in prison. Others were arrested for other crimes until they built a strong case and were able to charge them. But the bail is happening next week. Yeah. The 29th. Yeah. 29th September. And he's held in custody. What do you wake of that? Hey, you know, one of the things that, you know, it's it's crazy to think this. They moved him to Khosim Ampouf. Where Matala is? Matala and Sebiya could be having meals together in prison. Bro, these guys have a catchup. How the tables have turned. But yeah, but like they've moved him there because, you know, one of the things that came to the front, especially after his arrest, and was mentioned by one of the subspokes person is that the decision to move him there was on the pace of credible intelligence that he might mount an escape.

14:33You might top of best for us. Hey, I read that I was like, huh. Yeah. But you think about it. This is someone who has the influence, the network, who has the necessary contact to be able to pull off something like that, you know, it's it's one thing to be as to be an outsider trying to influence dynamics within law enforcement and corrections. It's different to to being someone who literally has sat with some of the highest ranking people in that sphere. I don't think it would have been sustainable for him to escape though. He's Sebiya literally he's been on everyone's TV screen for a long time. It'll be unlike our best now who of course as well had a quite a popular story back then when he was arrested, but I think people had kind of forgotten about. So if he escaped, I don't know how he'd be able to maintain staying away from and not getting caught. I think an escape by him is like a nuclear option. That's like I can't go back. Never going back. Life has to start all over again. Like it's reminding me of the in Colombia, the Cali Cartel. I keep forgetting the name of these brothers that ran the cartel.

15:38One of their business partners escaped. Yeah. You couldn't go back after that. So I say all of that to say that someone in Sebiya's position, if that was a consideration, it would only happen under the guise of there is no going back. So they know everything and they're likely going to get me with everything. Or maybe he has some inside information that there is things that could happen to him whilst they're, but of course it's all speculation. The majority of that story is just the fact that the second highest police person outside of cabinet structures would have thought to do that and they received credible intelligence to that effect. And the number one had charges with drawn against them this week as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're not watching SMWX this week, go back and watch our archive from this week. Because Fanny Masemola, who's another suspended national police commissioner has these charges with drawn against them. The charges against them

16:43were drawn by the MPA. But it's actually insane how many national police commissioners we've had who have had charges brought against them who have been suspended or fired. Yeah. But you see, I don't know. And maybe I'm putting myself in the fire line, but I don't necessarily think it's palatable to add Fanny Masemola to this idea of corrupt police commissioners. Because also, now that we've also got the facts and Idaq has appeared before the commission, we understand what Idaq's modus operandi was. I mean, we saw it with Brigadier Dino Mokuele. So I wouldn't find it credible any charges that Idaq brought against Fanny Masemola. So I always felt that I was unfair to always paint them in the same brushes, your Jackie Celebers and all other police commissioners who didn't finish their term because they were corrupt apparently. So yeah, we also Idaq crack for two weeks on our TV screens. After they seems so unimpeachable at Parliament. But my suspicion there,

17:51I understand how in the media this can also be played. When allegations are made and a later on this proven, sure, this proven, everybody will always remember the allegation and will always own a little piece of people's minds. And given what we're learning about not only the infiltration, but the internal, factional, and fighting, it insults and government, I've always known you can't get that high up without knowing how to maneuver. So it's for me, the suspicion is just there by way of this process has not done anything to make me believe you don't have to do stuff to get there. That's just where mine. But you know, I'm a hope-monger but I'm also a suspicious guy. That's yeah, for me, the bigger question even. And I mean, like I said, we saw Idaq crumble in two weeks in front of the nation at the Madangal Commission. But I still don't think there've been

18:56tangible consequences for the damage that Idaq has done not only to individuals, but the credibility of the NPA and Idaq because they do for under the NPA. This is not the first person who's had charges withdrawn against them by the NPA. General Kumalo, Brigadier Muguele, both had charges by the NPA withdrawn because they didn't see any reasonable prospects of success. So it makes me think how many other, out of the many investigations and maybe prosecutions that Idaq has been a part of, how many are legitimate, how many can we go back and review and withdraw charges against other people. So for me, it really questions the integrity of Idaq as an institution. I had a crazy thought the other day because Idaq, if we read and go do research about how it came about, understanding that it was a recommendation from the

19:58Zondo Commission. And however sustainable it is, but why not have the Madangal Commission carry on, remove Idaq and let you know find some bridge between the NPA and the Madangal Commission, whether it's a unit within the NPA, to prosecute and investigate cases from the Madangal Commission. But for me, if I think about it, Idaq was investigating prosecuting cases from the Zondo Commission for corruption, which the Madangal Commission is uprooting now even. Just the fact that this isn't public and we all get to see it, doesn't mean justice is served, but I think we're getting there because all of the stuff gets brought up to the public. And we've seen more arrests, more people being held accountable through this Madangal Commission. Yeah. Then we have in any other Commission that we've had. So it was just a crazy thought I had the other days. If I had to pick keep Idaq, let the Madangal Commission end the January, let the Madangal Commission carry on

21:00and get rid of Idaq and give some of the mandate that Idaq has to something like a Commission. Whether it still becomes a Commission or takes a form of something else, let justice Madangal when he steps down, be heavily involved in who succeeds him and the team. Because I think the Madangal Commission just as Mbouh Sayyly Madangal built a formidable team. They have investigators of evidence, leaders, of lawyers. And yeah. To the point of actually filling the bridge of credibility in society, I mean, I think it goes without saying that the Madangal Commission has gone beyond any room that a Commission of inquiry has stepped into before in South Africa in that it is sort of seen as this avenger of justice as this body of not only highly competent and qualified people, but of people that single-mindedly are focused on an earth thing that deep rot in South Africa.

22:09Forget just in the criminal justice system in South Africa. And so listen, that's a call I think many of us have had. I can tell you, you are here. What until is our producer? He's been here when I was doing analysis during that two-week period where Madangal was not here. And I was like, outside of this Commission, what else is actually happening to give us an indication that South Africa is drifting towards a positive direction? Firstly, we all get our lost throw withdrawals when there's no madanga. And then I stopped this thing over taking long weekends, guys. But yeah, I think you're right. And I've also said before, imagine if you had, because this is also just, if you look at the terms of reference, just the criminal justice system. Can you imagine the Madangal Commission as it is with its efficiency and all that it has, investigating the Department of Social Development, where Sasa lies, where different types of grants, defense, if you go to sports arts and recreation, if you had Madangal Commission that was looking at

23:15the Department of Health, of homophers. Hey, homophers need its own separate thing. So we've had two ministers who've had homophers sit in that chair and say, I, that thing, but I agree with you there. I think that that is something that is worth exploring, especially as beyond the recommendations of the Commission, but especially as government has to now decide what steps will it take to not only reassure the public that there is an effort to clean up the state. I think also just from the standpoint of what other credible mechanisms and tools do they have available to them? If Iraq is corrupted in institution, the independent director against corruption, if that gets corrupted, it leaves very little room for real accountability. I think, lastly on the Madangal Commission that I'll say sorry, I think also because I mustn't also be understood to be saying to build a parallel justice system. Yeah. I think it's actually an

24:15indictment on the justice, criminal justice system in South Africa that it took a commission of inquiry that just starts at 9.30 when they say they're going to start at 9.30 that has witnesses, that forensically and clinically deals with and investigates issues for us to have hope in justice in this country. So I'm not saying we should build a parallel criminal justice system, but I think the criminal justice system needs to really look at itself in the mirror and ask itself some tough questions. Sure. This is an analysis topic in it of itself. Yeah. That's what's the last last one. How far back do I now go? Yeah. I'll end it this before I move to Senzenkoon. In my head, I have a memory of Baudler-Jordan talking about the foundations of Y South Africans do not trust the courts, the judiciary, the legal system, all stems back to how transformation did not occur in the judiciary post-94. But like I said, a topic for another day. And I mean, us in suits ties on podcasts and offices can convince ourselves that we trust the justice system.

25:22But I think it's also about convincing the masses, the people that don't have as much access that might not have as much access to information and courts and justice itself because of the price of lawyers, the costs of justice if you're going to put it that way. I think it's convincing the masses, the normal, genuine people, not that we not genuine or anyone else is not genuine. But the real masses of the people that justice is justice for everyone in this country. And that it's possible. Yeah. Because I think that's been an impediment. But Anna moved now from one suspended sub-official to the suspended minister of police. You must have a ministry of suspension at this country. Bro, you know, we need to please suspension bingo. Can I be a suspended producer of this? Hi, guys, guys, guys. No, no, no, no, no, no. And still get full paid leave.

26:22Hey, I don't need to take up with C's. C's were please suspended producer of SMW with a full salary. Boss, man, you're watching, you're watching, properly in the comments. Okay, Sanzong Kunu. So we hear news around the seizing of two of his cell phones and the data that was retrieved from his WhatsApp's. Now, these data and information that comes from there indicating, well, pretty much reinforcing what we'd already known about Sanzong Kunu. And the individuals that he had been meeting with. Now, I want to take us back to Sedric in Gabinde, the chief of staff. Yeah. And when he appeared at Parliament's ad hoc committee. Now, Gabinde speaks about procuring meetings between Kunu and certain figures. Amongst them, I believe, was Brown Mkhotsi. And this was, of course, to discuss the PKTT staff. Obviously,

27:24you know, I organized the meetings where I wasn't there. Shop. But from Kunu right now, these WhatsApp messages that are coming out are at least giving an even deeper picture into just how much he knew. But later on claims that he did not know about the internal happenings in the PKTT, things that were happening within not only case it and sub, but national subs, dockets where they were going and key figures. So, I want to come to this PKTT. Let me start the PKTT disbandment because that's really the nexus of all of this. It's what an lieutenant general was talking about on July 6. Why? What is the interest of top subs officials to squash this thing? Because on one hand, it's an instrument that they can weaponize. But then on the other hand, it's dealing with matters that now they don't want ever touched or brought to light. Yeah. Well, firstly, I want to touch on the WhatsApp thing. And I'll

28:25know we'll get to Bafana Sindani and Sibayani's testimony at the Maganga or like they of later. But there's just something about how the Madlanga Commission has changed WhatsApp as a phenomenon in this country. When I send a WhatsApp nowadays, I imagine Justice Madlanga reading it with advocate Chaskelson and I'm like, should I be sending this right now? You don't want the Fanny Posti moment. Yeah. Exactly. Because now Sindani is also, and many other witnesses are saying, leave my WhatsApp alone to the Maganga Commission. But to answer your question, and again, we don't want to speculate because no one has necessarily been, you know, found guilty of anything at this point. But I think you ask a very important question and a good question at that. As, you know, what did certain role players have to gain out of a weak political killing's task team that was clearly from the data that was presented to both Adal Committee and the Maganga Commission by General Kumalo and General Kwanazi was performing well. And I was executing its mandate pretty well

29:29and it managed to lessen and severely decrease the amount of political killings that were happening. Particularly in Kaisarim, how things are well, but across the country as a whole. And I think it's another reason why suspended Minister Sanzham Koonu is also, but so many question marks around him because the only plausible reason is either you've been pressured to do so by some syndicate. So whoever is interested in, to have a PKTT that doesn't work. Or you've quite clearly got direct links to organized crime and criminal cartels and syndicates. But I think it's an even bigger indictment that the president still keeps suspended Minister Koonu, suspended, and I don't know waiting for what. I don't know if he's waiting for Justice Maganga to put it in writing in his interim report

30:32that you need to fire on Koonu. Maybe the president's just shocked. No, the president's been shocked for a year. It can't be. You know, I always can't be. I put it to you, Commissioner Keegan, that I think realistically the political implications around moving someone like Koonu for some allegra mapposa right now, maybe as a factor. Because I mean, within the party, the ANC, especially heading into this LGE, Guazulina Dahl is to say it is in crisis, I think, as an understatement. The agency for the ANC, of course. It's hemorrhaging to them to go to the USUZ party. It's hemorrhaging members to IFP. Not only are those factions jumping ship, but you have within the party, they in KZN, an internal power struggle to fill vacuums that are left by prominent figures. People like Zandilukumet leave and go to other parties. And so I think the

31:39ANC's consideration is to say, fine, KZN ANC's lost a lot of senior figures. It's lost a lot of stabilizers. They tried with this task team, reconfigurations, the experiencing challenges. I mean, the only time I see Senzum Koonu on my phone on Twitter is when he's around KZN doing ANC work. If the ANC thinks Senzum Koonu is going to save KZN for them, they must lock up Lutuliahs right now and throw the KZN away. Senzum Koonu, saving the ANC in KZN. But then again, what other options do they have in KZN? Surely better options than Senzum Koonu. And I think that's the problem that people have had with the ANC is you can't replace corruption with better corruption. And I know everything is still an allegation at this point, but I think we've got enough information to understand that there's enough question marks for someone to be removed from the picture. For me, I can't... The ANC can't tell

32:42that there is no... Out of the hundreds of thousands of members that the ANC has, there is no better comrade in the ANC that can save KZN for them than Senzum Koonu. Who is going to let Senzum Koonu into their house to go to door to tell them that the ANC will bring whatever he says the ANC is going to bring. And this is not about us, you know, lighting a fire under the ANC. It's Senzum Koonu. And this is a response to if you're saying that the ANC is, you know, hoping that Senzum Koonu can save KZN for me. I'm just saying, I don't think Senzum Koonu is the right candidate to send out to KZN with the hopes of getting your percentage back. No, fundamentally for the ANC in Kwa Zulu Natal, I think there has to be a recognition that they need to cultivate new cohort of leadership. Because the existing cohort of leadership is either too old or have too many to quote Batabili,

33:42I mean skeletons in their closets. And they're not Batabili's at small-line-ian skeletons. Time has told they're not small-line-ian. No, I mean, things that are coming out demonstrate that. That the reality of the situation for the ANC in Kwa Zulu Natal is that they need new leaders that can inspire a new demographic of voters in a new constituency. Because their existing constituency is not only getting fragmented by MkP, but the IFP who, mind you, go back to three two thousands and go back to the 90s. The deliberate strategy of the ANC in KZN was to slowly, slowly chip away at the IFP and consume its membership. So the party there needs to make a political calculation of beyond just the party's image, beyond just the party's leadership. There needs to just be a breeding of new leaders there. And the problem for them is we know they ought to know better.

34:44But the circumstances of where Lutuli houses, guys, even if they knew better, would they do it? Because they've known better on a lot of things. They knew better in Joburg than to have three candidates. They knew better than in any election format to have three people and say no, I will select the mayoral candidate after the fact. It's factional in fighting, it's all of this. So these guys, they know better. But they just don't want to do better. And it comes back to that ageal argument about politicians if they wanted to, they would. So, you know, I haven't forgotten what my point was on the phone, but this guy continues to articulate just in his presence and the fact that he's suspended and the fact that he still gets his salary, his package. I'm not sure if he still gets his intelligence briefings. Like, I know there are some things that have to supersede. Yeah. But at the end of the day, the inaction on the side of President Ramaposa, the fact that this person

35:48is still a factor irrespective of where the political chips are now. The fact that he's not fired, leave some people with insults, asking themselves, can he come back? And if he does come back, how will my conduct now affect then? So that's an ongoing matter separate of itself. And the president has shown us that he can get the size of anyone's too. Andrew Woodfield didn't last a second. Yeah. It's his selective action. That's the thing that the president always, you know, him, he mockingly says this, that when I get too decisive, you say, I'm a dictator when I consult, you say, the thing with him and this president just to be frank, there are things that are objectively right to do. Having people at this high level, accused of the stuff that they're accused of is not a good look for the country and for the government. It's not like firing him from the executive means you fired him from parliament. The president can add him back if he wanted to. But the fact that you still keep him there,

36:54I mean, it's a signal, you know how they say the hammer has to fall from above. Well, when people see the hammer isn't falling, that's an even, that's a bigger signal to all of the people that are involved in improprieties because it says, well, if the hammer's not going to fall on him and he's there, why would it fall on me? How did he, how did he stop it? And it just continues the cycle of just impunity. But the cycle is breaking and it's breaking with the Wettlanger Commission. And on I come to the Wettlanger Commission this week, two people who the country has come to hear a lot about again, we heard about them during the extortion case that they're facing. That's Joe Fararis, Ibanioni and Bafana Sindani. Today, Friday, this week, let me actually get my thoughts. This week, Bafana Sindani was supposed to appear at the Wettlanger Commission of Inquiry. This was obviously following Farar, Sivanioni's testimony with, there was, I mean, a lot of

37:58bombshell stuff that was contained in Sivanioni's affidavit that he read out. The connections to Jotham Seabee, the big five cartel that exists within the taxi industry, the purported power that exists there, the power base and the recognition by certain government ministers that this mafia or cartel is so influential that there's information that leaks from the executive into this rogue unauthorized entity of the criminal underworld. But Sindani didn't appear. And the litany of excuses as to why he became a parent. If he wasn't in spiritual seclusion, he was experiencing medical challenges, another patient for the Madanga ward. Or he was, I mean, we heard that he was supposed to attend some form of a spiritual church event. Guys, why? We've seen people appear before.

39:06Why are these guys just so terrified? Because inevitably they will have to go, more be found in contempt. Why do you, what's your read on why Sindani doesn't want to go? Because Sivanioni went and he seems to be, I mean, he hasn't started cross-examination, but more or less where he is at now, I don't understand why the others are so scared. They just use the same playbook. Tell the truth. I think people have seen how clinical the Madanga commission is. In the way they investigate, in the way they forensically investigate, in the way that they lead evidence and question witnesses. And I think to some people that may have some information that they would not want people to find out about that is very intimidating. And I think, again, it's to give props to the Madanga commission. And often we celebrate Justice Madanga as the face of the commission. But I think every single person that works to

40:07bring the Madanga commission to what it is. Because I think they've built a formidable name for themselves. You can't go there willingly and try to worm your way out of stuff. With Justice Madanga, with Advocate Balloy and Advocate Kumalo. Hey, when three o'clock hits and Advocate Kumalo says, but afternoon, and you website his pages with his paper, with his color markers, then you know you're done. You think four o'clock is now now, but four o'clock is not coming. So I think people have seen that and what the Madanga commission has been able to unearth. And they fear, it's like this SMWX chase. You always, you know, guess what is coming and say, you know, we'll talk about this, this and this and then they come here and they were friendly. Yeah, nice people. There must be something in the Madanga chase as well. But on a serious note, I think people have genuinely seen how what the Madanga commissioners unearthed and they know the potential of the answers that they able to get once they sit in the witness box. But knowing the Madanga commissioner, I don't think that's going to stop them.

41:11We've had Suleiman Karim, who I don't know how many times has been supposed to appear before the Madanga commission for whatever reasons that he doesn't, whether valid or not, because we not medical practitioners that he's seeing whatever. So we wouldn't know. But I think I'm also just tired. And this is as a South African who watches the Madanga commission with interest. I'm just tired of people coming to the Madanga commission and submitting medical certificates. Yeah. Like not everyone can get sick, okay? Hey, and in succession. And what is it? Like, are you sick or do you want spiritual seclusion? Or are you both? Are you sick, admit, at spiritual seclusion? But you can talk to your lawyers. Yeah. And you can help them write affidavits. You can help them articulate the argument against. For me, the thing, and this is just what gets me about this. And I'm sorry, what is spiritual seclusion? Hey, you know, and this is with the great, this is something in the comments. With the greatest of respect. Like,

42:14yeah, no, you know, my thing is that genuinely for someone, listen, go or not go. Doesn't matter. One way or another, you will be someone that is brought up. Just because I will read those WhatsApps in your S absence. He will read it. Other witnesses will see the opportunity to throw you under the bus. And you will be without the opportunity to not only render your narrative of events, but be able to contextualize things in a way that perhaps is more favorable to you. That's a good point. That's my thing. Not going doesn't somehow prevent them from not talking about you. They'll talk about you. They'll get evidence on you. They'll render it. And then they'll have a picture that they will conclude on based on the facts that were presented before them. And your lawyer can go there and talk for you. No, that's a good point. So these guys, like, for me, I just, I can't make sense of why you won't go. Like, yes, you'll get hit with the tough stuff.

43:18Hey, no one can do as bad as Julius Panas, who literally don't test them at Langokommission, okay, maybe, okay, no, actually, Andrea Johnson is. You're actually if I go back, there are more people that were with let me stop. But at the end of the day, it is both in their best interest, but also somewhat against their interest to go. But I think given the opportunity to go there and contextualize things, I think it leaves them in a much better position than having just ignore the whole thing and then hoping that it'll go away because it doesn't go away. It's like homework. It's like an unsubmitted assignment. Yeah, they'll better you. Yeah. No, I think you're right. And I think that's probably a point that they don't digest enough is here you're given an opportunity to speak to the evidence and put your side on the record. So if you don't go and do that, you allow the commission to make recommendations and findings without your vision of events

44:19or without your clarifications, which they fully and they write to do because they issue their rule for notice. They ask you or ten notice which have advantages. They invited you to come to the commission. And I think at the beginning, maybe the invitation, but I think we've seen from the Zondocommission. If you think President Zuma went to jail because he committed some heinous crimes somewhere. President Zuma went to jail because of contempt of court, which is probably what they are taking. Suleiman Karimov opened a case against Suleiman Karimov because he's repeatedly not followed the the the the the rulings of the chairperson of the commission by attending. So yeah, it'll be interesting. But now today, we've just got confirmation from the Madangal Commission that the ruling in Bafanas in Dhanis' postponement application is dismissed. So he will be expected or not let's not say he will be expected. Evidence will be led on the 28th of September,

45:20which is next week Monday. And literally just as Madangal says in the directive in whatever format. So I think the commission is prepared to do what they did with Ferro's Khan. Read out the evidence, read out the WhatsApp chats whether you're there or not to clarify what those WhatsApp chats mean. So sorry, one up on bill. And you see, these guys, they need to internalize that because now not only is Bafanas in Dhani in this very compromising position, but you're seeing someone like Ferro's Khan who literally has was supposed to appear months ago. We're getting word that he will be appearing via in camera to the Madangal Commission of inquiry. So individuals who tried to outmaneuver and outrun the clock when it came to the commission come into the conclusion that now not only is the picture being painted without their input, but it's actually now in their best interest to go and actually testify even in spite of, and remember, Khan was shot. Karim, we don't,

46:26those medical certificates were called into question, but before I go to Ferro's Khan, I just want because I feel like I haven't done this one just this year. The thing that was just so startling about Sibanyun's testimony was the influence that this big five cartel had in South Africa, over government, the level of information and access to senior leadership that they had. You know, there was testimony that was given by someone from one of the international agencies that focuses on mitigating syndicate crimes. No, it was a different expert witness. I remember the World Bank guy. This cartel, to me at least, when I look at it at face value, I see something that very clearly indicates a parallel structure of power in South Africa that both existed in parallel

47:26to official state mechanisms, but in some areas actually crossed the line into actually occupying influence and control over state agencies, specifically the big five operators operates within transport sector, so the taxi industry and the Ministry of Transport being one. What do you make of that picture that was painted by Sibanyun in his testimony about the influence of Jotam, CB and other members of the big five cartel? I think first of all, we've also just become so desensitized that it really takes a lot to shock me nowadays at the Madangal Commission because we've been through the most in the last 12 months. But I think more broadly, Sibanyun's testimony in what you're allude to speaks of a more, and I think to call it what it is, a disgusting corruption culture that we have in South Africa. And I think corruption is a global thing. You find corruption wherever you go. But I think, and it's said because corruptors have enabled us as well.

48:36In the case that you're talking about, where it's influence of government institutions, building a parallel state, if you want to call it that, because we've heard of this thing of the farm was like the Union buildings of this underground state that was happening. It has to be, and I think it's Dr. Buiseni Losi who was on the channel recently, put it perfectly to say, you need to pay a bribe for everything in this country. And if the bureaucrats in homophares and all these government institutions are just taking a bribe to give you a service that they're supposed to give you for free or paid to government, not to them personally. Imagine what other areas of this country go through, the borders, the ports, airports, and what type of stuff gets allowed to come in and out of South Africa. So I think, and I also don't know how long we have to talk about corruption for us to change this corrupt culture. And I'm not saying South Africans are

49:43inherent to corrupt. South Africa inherent, there's a corruption characteristic. But I think we talk too much about corruption and don't do enough. And that's why we've allowed corruption to be embedded and so embedded that it reaches into the criminal justice system, which for me is supposed to save God's citizens and the country from external forces. So yeah, if the exam marker is corrupt, then how are you going to, how are you going to pass the test? Apparently by giving palace or buffalo. Yeah. Who knows? But okay, let's come now to Ferros Khan. Yeah. Because at Lainel East, finally, there's a moment there where it looked like, ah, maybe he's gotten away. But you know, we always say finally, but until we switch on that stream at 930 and he sees it in that chair, we just hope that he'll come. You know, okay, top of mind for Ferros Khan, one thing I'm very curious

50:49to hear about is this, okay, why would someone in his position attempt to use the influence that he held to try sway Idaq's investigation into Dumsani Khumalo and his colleagues in crime intelligence. What was the motive? Where did his suspicions come from? What reinforced that for him? I want to know that because the Idaq's dream for me, you know, I was shocked listening to that. I know there's a lot that's unshocking about the situation here, but that one is genuinely shocking because the methods, the approvals, the latent circumvention of procedures and protocols and policies within Idaq that were just swept aside because Khan wanted it to happen. I want to understand what was the deeper motive there. So I want to know about that. I want to understand a bit more about this corruption, purported corruption, alleged that he was involved in was he occupied his senior

51:51position of a major general in SAPS, specifically around the COVID-19 PPE tenders for the health care sector because that one is a very big one because I'm sure as many people remember PPE contracts in this country, not just state procurement contracts, but general contracts that were given that tended out were huge and government tried to internally source as much of that as possible, but still there's money that vanished. So I want to understand who were his partners in that because Merika 24 opened a lot of worms. There's a huge kind of worms for a lot of people who we now see as somehow related to Matralla and then his other companies. And then probably the last thing I want to know are just the deep networks that Khan is a part of. Who are his friends? Khan's WhatsApp messages. Those things are going to be explosive. Like if there's anything that will match July 6 for me or match Arthur Frazier's June 1st interview with the Sunday world about Pala Pala,

52:59I think it's going to be Khan's WhatsApp messages because who is he communicating with? WhatsApp, like you said, is proven to be the kryptonite for these guys. I don't use those voice note listen once things anymore because I know guys, let's move over to signal the telegram. But those are the things I'm looking for. As Madanga asks investigators to investigate you. Hey, no, no, me, I'm an upstanding citizen. I'll tell you for free. I'm upstanding. You're not going to find anything. But those are the things I'm looking for when it comes to Ferro's Khan. What are you looking for? I agree, but I want to hear about his relationships. And to what extent those relationships extend to what we've already heard about criminal syndicates and about organized crime in South Africa. And of course, we're not assuming any guilt on anyone person. Because just speaking to someone doesn't automatically mean that there's some sort of criminality happening.

54:00But I'm interested to hear about his relationship with former addict boss Andrea Johnson. Sure. And to what extent he had an influence on investigations that were being done by Idaq. And to what extent was he being given access to information that he wasn't supposed to have by Andrea Johnson, allegedly. I want to hear about his relationship with Mosaid, who has come up as a close associate of, I think it was Masoti. Adriano Masoti, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, Masoti. This is the side of Andrea. Yeah. If not Masoti, then, yeah, I think around that connection. Yeah. But I want to hear about his relationship with Julius Malema as well. And over and above, you know, we know about the questions that were sent about the Timi Marumu to parliament that Dr. Andlosea to ask. But is there more to that

55:00relationship, not those questions? It would be interesting to hear about his relationship with Braun Makhoti as well. Because if you remember well, in general, Makhoti's press statement on the 6th of July, in that interaction that he was explaining he had with Makhoti, there was a part where Makhoti said to Makhoti, Khan will brief you. So was that an indication that Khan is somehow embedded in this, you know, web that includes Braun Makhoti, Sansum Khunu, Kat Matala, allegedly. And yeah, and if there is a relationship that Khan might have with Sansum Khunu, what is it? What is the basis? So it will be interesting to hear what he's connections to many of the people that we've heard, yeah, being implicated somewhat at the Madlanga Commission. General Sibia maybe, as well. But just to step back and give people an understanding. So, and I wasn't aware of this as well. So I knew if you remember at the beginning of July, yeah, Ferroze Khan was supposed to testify

56:01at the Madlanga Commission. He unfortunately got shot and he couldn't appear. But the commission carried on and advocate Chakalaka, carried on reading his WhatsApp chats into the record without him being there, obviously giving him the opportunity when he does appear to give context and clarify and answer some questions that might arise from those WhatsApp's. But what I didn't know, wasn't aware of is after that, two days after that, between the seventh and the eighth of July, or the sixth and the seventh of July, the commission went in camera to hear WhatsApp evidence or more evidence that is more sensitive that relates to General Khan. So the commission has already heard in camera evidence with the presence of Khan's legal representatives in camera they've heard, you know, some of this evidence. And what's happening next week is he's supposed to now also appear on the 28th of September. So now we've got Bafanasindani and Khan, who is supposedly supposed to have evidence on the same day. So we'll have to see how the commission works that out. But Khan,

57:03or the evidence leaders this time have been the ones to apply to the commission and the chairperson to have a portion of Khan's evidence be heard in camera. And I think with good reason, because some of it includes information about informants who are obviously have been planted in in the web of these syndicates, who if they get exposed to put their lives and operations at danger. And it's also got to do with safeguarding ongoing investigations that are currently happening. So that's the reason or the reasons that the evidence leaders have put forward for an in-camera application for general. Is he still general? But for the for my general, they do, but I'm not sure if you get dismissed from the service if it's the same like, yeah, big gala is still general, big gala. But point aside, it'll be interesting then to see because I don't think the application is for all of Khan's evidence to be in camera. It's for a part of it. But I'm looking forward to the part

58:05that's not in camera that will be public for us to hear. And finally get Khan sitting in the chair if she has been postponed for a very long time. This is actually some deep state stuff because the nature of those informants, what are they doing? I mean, I remember, I think it was a witness G, it was involved with both Mahozzi and Fidio Adams working to facilitate and coordinate not only the charges against Kumalo, but helping to frame Adams's initial charges against crime intelligence. I wonder the role that someone like witness G, you say Khan will prefer you. The role of someone like a witness G, what does Khan's statement have to say about that person? Because to this day, we don't know who that is, what their motive was, how they were operating to what interest or to what

59:06end were they acting. The reason that popped in my head is because I'm saying to myself, there are still a lot of unanswered questions around the deliberate attempt to undermine and circumvent the work of crime intelligence. What were they working on that nobody wanted worked on, attached on? What did Dhrmsani Kumalo and his associates there at crime intelligence, what were they aware of? And maybe Khan can give perspective into that if he engages in good faith to the commission. Yeah, on one end, I understand why things have to be in camera, but on the other end, I'm like, at one point, does the public have the right to know? Because the more I learn with the commission, the more I'm like, guys, actually, some of this stuff will get settled if it's in the public domain and we hear about it. I think the Madagascar Commission has also built the trust from South Africa and student. For me, I trust that whatever evidence that is being given in camera

1:00:10will not be nitpicked as to what's important and not so that I trust the Madagascar Commission through its evidence leases and investigators to look at everything holistically and to give everything the attention that it needs. So I don't think I've got any doubts about or fears about some of these in camera evidence. I do understand that to be fair, general Khan worked in crime intelligence. So there has to be some sort of information that really can't be made public. We can't read every single WhatsApp chat that is in general, of course, that relates to his work and ongoing investigations. As much as we'd want to know, but I think it does compromise some aspects of investigations that are still ongoing. Sure, bro. It doesn't end. It doesn't end. Just before we started, I mean, that was the week, but just before we started, we heard that the MKP had expelled two members, I think, but a couple of weeks ago, Dr. Kanyisila Lichfield, Chabalala,

1:01:11and there was I think another Pumulani Kubukeli if I'm pronouncing a certain correct. Now the wisdom KPY court has said the MKP party must reinstate them as members. Members of the party, not parliament. Not parliament. I think maybe for next time, it's also an interesting conversation to have about the courts being able to do something like that. I don't know. And that's not only the only news around MKP and courts, because the electoral court matter that they brought about the credibility of the 20-25 elections has been dismissed. Struck off. So it's not a good time for revolutionary parties and courts. ANC, MK, EFF better watch out if there are any matters going to the role. But fam, you know where to go for more information on this. If you enjoyed this double-o-special episode, please make sure to like, share, and subscribe as SMWX is on its way to half a million subscribers. Until next time, let's keep spreading the fire. Ayee! Yee! Yee!