The Ultimate PDI Podcast

0:00The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook Talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changes about what drives them. Welcome to the Instructor Podcast. This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor and from a better driving school. As always I am your splunted host Terry Cook. I'm delighted to be here. Be even more delighted that you have chosen to listen because today we have the ultimate PDI podcast. That's right we do in an episode especially for PDIs. So if you are currently training or considering becoming a driving instructor this is just for you. If on the other hand you are currently a driving instructor you can still learn from it. But even better share it with anyone you know that is thinking about becoming one. We would also argue that if you considering training PDIs this would make a really good listen as well. And he'll better to drive

1:00me on this episode than Emma Cottington and Tom Stenson. But just before you listen allow me to put you in the direction of the instructor performance and psychology membership. This membership is especially for people who want to do more than the minimum. People that want to go above teaching the absolute basics and doing nothing else. Yes we do help you with the standards check and with the part of free but we also help you look at how to bring road safety into lessons how to improve and grow your business how to improve your coaching techniques and even how to look after your mental well being as a driving instructor. To find out more go to patreon.com forward slash the instructor or use the link in the show notes. But for now let's get stuck into the show. Look I delighted to be joined today by two people that I raised incredibly highly and I would consider friends first of all Emma Cottington how we doing Emma. Good afternoon Terry

2:04I'm good how are you? All the better seeing you smiley face and we're also joined by Mr Tom Stenson how are you son? I am awesome thank you very much Terry. So I'm delighted that both can join me today as we basically dive into the PDI situation and discuss through what it takes to become a driving instructor the process and mentality the mindset and all that kind of wonderful stuff. So I for with just skimmarin issue eligibility aspect of it. I don't think we need spend too much on this but I'm just going to run for it and then give you guys a chance just if there's anything you want to touch on that before we move on to the the process and then we'll look at things like the training how you train where you go how you decide who's right whether you go on pink or any of that kind of stuff. So first of all eligibility is a word I struggled to say but I'm proud it's why it's now such really good. First of all you need to be 21 or over. It needs to be a full license hold of a free or more years. It can't really be abandoned or disqualified from driving in the last four years or have more than five penalty points and you're highly unlikely to be

3:09accepted if you have been convicted of sexual violence assault financial or drug-related crimes or banter and working with children. So that's the basic criteria from the DVSA Tom anything that stands out to you there and if anyone want to. Yeah I think my add on is and I think this they should commend the eligibility of it. I'm just impressed I said that on my first go is that we I've seen quite a lot over the years where people want to come into the industry because they like driving and I think you in order to be eligible to do this job you need to recognize that it is very much an educational role and that are driving for ourselves is quite minimal compared to us being able to teach that. So even if you've come from another job that has had driving as a baseline I think that's good because we talk about transferable skills but it should

4:12really be that people are coming into the industry because they want to change road safety and they want a positive effect as well as educating the new and not so new drivers that we're going to have on the road. It's interesting because it was one of the reasons I had the cabinet stripped it was because I like driving and then I've just said pretty quick when you realise oh hold on I'm not driving and also when you are driving it's often the demonstration which is less fun. Emma anything you want to add on to this? Only something similar to what Tom said but I have always been baffled over the years why that eligibility point we don't have something where we can have like a question bank where you will select one of the answers and that will kind of give you the type of person you are and whether you're suited to the role that type of just to give people an idea so similar to what Tom

5:17said as to what the role is and how they would fit into that. Almost like this is a statement and then four answers as to your likely response to those statements. What's like a personality test? Yeah yeah a little bit like that but around the job, around what's needed you know. I think that would be interesting but the thing that springs some ice to it away is the word patience because it's something I hear a lot when we talk about instructors people say I want other patients to do that my instructor was really patient and when I think about it I don't actually think instructors need to be that patient. I think the pupil thinks you're being patient but that's because they they're the one doing it they're the one that might I don't know get it wrong five times in a row so they think we're being patient but we're actually just helping them we don't feel it so let me ask you what what would be the quality if you were picking one quality that would be a mix driving instructor suitable or maximum suitable to be driving instructor

6:22or that quality would be curiosity for me. Yeah exactly what I was just said. I'd be very ill say I like it. Do you know what that could well that could be in the eligibility criteria should be the first question are you curious and anyone that says no gets dumped down. Okay so can I just add a bit on top of that because I think there needs to be a little bit of context and for me the curiosity I'd like to see where you come from with this Emma. The curiosity isn't just about I need to be curious about my learner. The curiosity is about I need to be curious about my development I need to be curious about actually are there other methods that I'm using that might be more beneficial which is our development. So and that's why I think curiosity is such a great one because I think it encompasses everything the the majority of everything that we

7:23should be doing as good driving instructors is being curious to what our learners are saying and how they're saying it but also being curious to our own development. Yeah I think if Terry had given me two words out of gone with curiosity and transparency and I put those two hand in hand but in a similar vein of I I don't believe and it maybe is just a personal sort of opinion and belief that I can't help somebody else develop their self-awareness if I'm not good with my own self-awareness. So that curiosity has to start with me in order for me to be able to be curious with somebody else because if I'm closed off and not transparent with me then I can't how can I expect that person to be that towards me as well and then we could go down the whole vein of rapport and relationship build in and humans and values and beliefs but we don't

8:27want to be here all afternoon. You might not want to. I think I'm going to say yeah we'll probably dig into that more later on but I think that's good I think that's good I think I think I would probably look at like communication skills and good communication skills but maybe that's something we build up more as we go anyway but anyway that's the eligibility stuff let's have a quick look at the process then we'll run through this and we'll dig into it more as we go so initially you'll need to get your DBS which is disclosure and barring service check and it applies to be an instructor the part one that then consists of the theory and the hazard perception the part two is a driving ability test then that you would need to decide whether you go on to a pink badge which is essentially like an apprenticeship almost or whether you're not doing that I'm just doing training separately you then got your part free which is your instructional ability and then you join the register once you pass that and that costs you a fenders of pounds for you every four years so that is the kind of

9:29basic outline of the process Tom is there anything you want to touch on there. I mean the one thing that I was thinking about as you were talking through that is that the once you once you pass your part three it's you know I'm not saying to try and scare people but I think it's it's good that they're aware of it passing your part three doesn't automatically mean you're going to be accepted on the ADI register you could be refused because of things that have happened so yeah I know we talk about this later and about the professionalism and I'm not sure many people look at driving instructors as professionals but I'd like to think we are so yeah I mean that's the only point that I would add in there is just to make sure that at at each of those stages and even once you are qualified being removed from the register due to not being fit and proper can potentially happen at any point

10:31and an interesting point actually because I think there is that assumption there you you ask are you qualified and then you immediately get second by register but when you when you qualify or when you pass you have to apply to be called an issue yeah yeah remember anything you want to touch on. Again I think personal opinions coming in here that is the process do I like the process not always I think people stick to rigidly to the way you've just itemized it if you like and the reality is it's not like that or it shouldn't really be like that but if we're talking about the processes in we have to tick those boxes then yes I agree with all of it we do. I'm just some interesting point because it's one of the things I want to speak about today was that process and a lot of trainers now are kind of blending that together which is I think

11:35what you just alluded to so do you want to expand on that about maybe what you don't like about it and how it could and potentially should be done differently. Yeah I think it becomes it becomes too much of a checklist the reality is we can't do a part three if we don't do part two and we can't do part two without part one they they come together like they're not separate entities none of them are separate entities and although they are tested separately because the DVSA probably haven't got another way of of testing them without testing them the way that they do I suppose again we could all argue that as well but the the process is separate from the teaching for me the training is separate from the process so I know I have done it in the past where it's been let's do part one let's do part two let's put do part three you know I've been a trainer for 10 years now and that was

12:35typically how I started doing it very quickly sort of changed it and because it didn't make sense to me at the time that when I'm doing some part two training that we're not discussing part three at this point or you know that part one hasn't just because we've passed it has now gone it hasn't it's still very much part of what we're doing and it's going to crop up again in part three it just makes sense for me that it's all blended together because each component is part of each other so yeah the process is like that from in my head a DVSA perspective but the process of training for me shouldn't to be like that it was how I was trained you know okay and I think a lot of people listen to this will have been trained that way all the PDIs will be being brought in this way which was it was very much right here's an app or here's a you know whatever go and pass you part one then come back and we'll provide you training for part two and I don't think it works but

13:39I want to just push you a little bit on it and ask you I'm a why how you blend it together how do we do that when when it is structured once you shrink the way it is but blending it together in training sessions it's a difficult question how do I do it because I just do it it's like it's a difficult question like it's it's just a really natural process for me now now whether that's because I've grown to it to be natural that way or whether it really doesn't register in my head how to separate it out because because of so into linked it's a natural process and generally in the car or certainly in my car it's it's it's kind of just part of the conversation it's part of the whatever we're doing whatever we're working on it's sort of blended around whatever let's let's say we're working on a particular skill or something in the car the conversations very much blended around

14:41all the components and and how part one weaves into this and how part two weaves into this how part three weaves into this and you know going back to that transparency that I was talking about before the transparency is a massive part of my my training sessions because my training sessions don't work without it because quite often I'm using some skills in the session and it's good for me to then be transparent with the pdi and say this skill I'm just using this conversation is a skill that you'll be using with your learner drivers when you go on your pink badge or you know whatever it might be so it's just very much sort of blended conversational communication so yeah I don't I don't think I could physically separate it now I just don't think I'm capable of doing that anymore I'm going to ask you one more question for a ring tommin on this and I want to ask you let's imagine a pdi someone is running off being quiet about becoming an instructor

15:42what's guessing you wouldn't turn around and say to that person off you go are going to your part one is a book from back then we'll do your part two but what would you say if someone come and said I'm going to go and do my part one then I'm going to come to your part two how would you have that discussion again I think it's conversational we've got to remember at that point the the person that I'm having that conversation with potentially might not know another way you know so for me now it's conversational around I think I would start with intrigue and interests as to why they want to do it that way you know what's the purpose what's the goal with that you know so going straight in with my own coaching skills of all what's what's your reasoning behind that and then obviously without knowing what that pdi I would say in response to that the conversation then would would explore and expand from there I would be working with the goal of trying to I want to say change the mind but that's not necessarily what I mean because that's not

16:46my role it's my role isn't to do that but I would certainly be of the viewpoint that this person my way of training might be a complete blind spot for them so I would want to bring what I offer into that conversation and have they thought about it this way and actually I'm just going to give you this information I'm going to let you see how I train I'm going to you know maybe potentially even invite them along to another pdi session to observe potentially if that works for for everybody and I invite them to just sort of have have a little bit of time to think before they go down the route that they approached me with at first oh my you're sort of one of the founders of drive up training and I've just realized we've got drive up and up drive a training I haven't thought months up before so that's now we use them greatly yeah all of the founders of drive up training if someone comes along to you want this to come on the street do you send them away to do part one and then bring them back

17:49apart who are do you look at this one did approach yeah I mean as Emma said earlier it's about them training as a driving instructor that's what they're doing is training as a driving instructor you just happen to have to do part one part two and part three well those are exams they have nothing to do with training so and they shouldn't really be part of it either however we know from years of history the training often revolves around the test for many things in many many different organizations and many different avenues of of life so yeah a lot of what we try and do is a blended approach as much as possible and the reason I say as much as possible there are some situations where we might just focus on one area because that is what that client needs at that time and overloading with information might be detrimental to their training but that's

18:51just the same as we would do in any kind of education so like Emma was saying there if I've got a trainee that that says to me I'm going to go and do part one and then come back to you for part two or worse I'm going to do part one and part two of my own and come to you for part three what we generally would try and do at drive up is two things one we want them to come and observe us giving a driving lesson beforehand because then they get to meet us as a trainer and see what it's like they also get to see what a modern day driving lesson looks like because a lot of trainees the only time they saw a driving test was 25 years ago when they took their own the second thing that we would do generally once they've they've got their PRN number is we would organize an in-car session to see where their standard of driving is so although that's primarily an assessment to see where their standard of driving is we're starting to bring in the foundational knowledge which is the theory test and the

19:52has a perception but we're also bringing in future states which is you're getting to see how I use these coaching scenarios or how I've used instruction to help you and now I'm getting you to reflect on whether that worked or not so they get to see what these techniques are and they get to live them and feel what it's like to be in that situation so that for me even though I might not be going and saying to them this is an absolutely blended approach and you are going to be doing this they don't know any different because they're they're getting elements from every section of it even though the focus might be on an assessment for their driving for the folks I think what's a PRN? your personal reference number so once you have your DBS and you apply to become a PDI and that is one thing sorry I'm going to have a little bit of a rant now this is one thing that really annoys me is so many people don't realize that the moment you put your application in and

20:59get your PRN number you are a PDI you don't have to have a trainee license to be a PDI and are oh sorry rant over so once you get your PRN number you are a potential driving instructor and that is your personal reference number and that lasts for life so even if you are unsuccessful in you have to wait two years and store your process again you'll get the same PRN number that you had previously also please you said potential driving instructor because we've said PDI a few times and not kind of explain what that is and that's what it is a potential driving instructor and just while we're on that not for anyone listening that isn't aware an EDI isn't an advanced driving instructor it's an approved driving instructor but Tom will not follow questions because you mentioned there a modern driving lesson as opposed to historical what driving lesson what's the difference what would if you signed both you went back 20 years and signed one now what would be the difference I'm going to change that what should be the difference is that I think the

22:03old school driving lesson was very much hierarchical in I'm I'm the driving instructor and I know everything about driving and I'm just going to tell you what you need to do and if you don't listen it's because you're stupid and you don't listen where a modern driver trainer a modern instructor is still the expert in driving but we are not the expert in the client's up next to us so we need to be inquisitive and we need to be curious because that learner is going to bring their own experiences and their own thoughts and feelings to driving this vehicle and in simple terms we know the post test people very rarely crash because they can't control the car it's because they usually can't control their emotions in some way or their emotions are too strong and they haven't learned how to deal with that so this is a modern day lesson should very much

23:05center around the the client as opposed to just shut up and lesson I'm going to tell you what to do and if you do what if you do what you told you'll pass your test but you know I can I can care less whether my learns pass the test I don't want them to go and crash when they pass no you can't imagine me far about people becoming as short as a not necessarily knowing what to expect and not knowing any different over the what stated on the DVSA website I'm curious what what are some of the misconceptions you may be seeing quite regularly or from people from either people wanted to be instructors or actually people that are currently PDIs when you're training in a minute I think I think the the general feedback is and I am generalising here but is this isn't what I expected it to be I hear that quite a lot I think there's a perception that we potentially drive around all day just telling people to turn left and right and and that we use the dual

24:10controls all the time and that's what keeps us safe and that we annoy the general public and I think that that's the the generalisation and I think that going back to what's been said earlier on people potentially come in because they like driving and because they like driving there's maybe a little bit of optimism bias going on that they're good drivers and because they're good drivers that must mean that they they can show somebody else how to be a good driver too so I think there's a lot of misconception around that and then that leads to you know when we start looking at the client centered stuff when we start looking at the curiosity stuff when we start looking at the client is the person who has all the answers I think that becomes a bit of an alien concept to start with because it's not the perception that they've come in with so they're not prepared already for

25:14that to be part of the conversation in the car between ourselves and them because there's no belief though that that's how we do the job this could potentially stem from the way that we as a kind of culture if you like approach the learning to drive not the becoming a short but learners drive and then the culture is still very much getting downloaded a fairie up you know just do that in your own time and then your passive test and your learn drive after your test do you think that's where this comes from yeah I definitely think there's a there's a cultural thing that's going on there's I think driving has become a right of passage you know what I look at and I kind of put my human behavior hat on because that's where my passion is we're not meant to drive we're not meant to drive we're not meant to do this we're not we weren't biologically or genetically meant to drive so we are actually biologically and genetically going

26:14against us like humanness in order to get in a machine and drive it around the world with other people driving machines too and I think it's become this right of passage in that everybody can do no matter what and it's it's not always the case you know it's not always the case it might not be suitable for everybody and I think we do get that generalisation of you turn 17 in the vast majority and it's not the case for everybody but for the vast majority you turn 17 you might even get your provisional license for your birthday that year is a load of lessons and I expect you to have passed your driving test before you 18 with no consideration of the you know the fact that we're driving we're about to put our teenage children into weapons like there doesn't seem to be any concept of that I think it's it's still a very much an uphill battle to change that public

27:17perception because we're sadly a minority in that voicing of that perception what would you say to someone Tom who is listening to this and let's say the reverb consider him becoming an instructor and all these sounds like you've found gold walk nonsense or maybe they're the training in the minute and their driving school has sent them away to the part one and now it's doing the parts who we know the sculpture and it's just like instruction rather than class out learning you know people with those if you're experiencing it or have that mindset what message would you give to those people I might sound a little bit controversial here but your your first one was somebody who thought all this newfangled stuff was a bit woke my answer would be maybe this is not the right industry for you if that's what you think however your other point was if somebody has already been trained in perhaps an old school way comes back

28:18to what Emma said earlier which is about being curious that there are you know the term terminologies many ways to skin a cat not that I think you should ever skin a cat by the way and and that that is just such an important thing we we have to as driving instructors and and any industry have this growth mindset of you know we're always learning we should always learn and so you may be being trained in a specific way that doesn't mean you shouldn't go out and experiment and go and experience other things we we are driving school we suggest that our trainees go to other trainers because that is important I'm happy I'm happy to admit that there are specific ways that I will explain things because that that works for my brain that doesn't mean that person

29:18is going to understand it so they might go to Emma and Emma uses slightly different words but the same context and it makes sense well my my role is to help that trainee develop and if that sending them somewhere else to gain additional stuff why shouldn't I be doing that anything we want to add on this idea of blended training or potentially the there are looked in towards it I would just quickly add in for that for those listening if you haven't had blended training that doesn't mean you're going to be unsuccessful at part three and it doesn't mean you're going to be a rubbish instructor it it it can and it has for many years being a foundation of the minimum that people require what we're trying to say here is there are through lots of evidence and practice you know Emma and myself have been trainers for many years

30:18we we've been in the thick of it we've we can see the benefits of having it done this way doesn't mean that it's wrong if you don't but it is wrong and I think I'd add to that in that you know we're all we're all individuals and you know sort of echo in a little bit of what Tom said in that what works for me doesn't work for Tom what works for Tom doesn't work for me and you know and so on it doesn't change the context it doesn't change what we're all trying to work towards as a collective but we've got to find we've got to be adaptable to be able to find different ways for different people because if I I could continue to hammer home what works for me it's still not no matter how I put that it's not going to be received by the person who needs to hear it the way that works for them so it's up to me as the trainer to adapt to that person not the other way

31:20around I don't require the trainee to adapt to me because I'm not the person learning and that we don't know what we don't know until we know it like and it's it's up towards to expose those blind spots and the the stuff that people don't know you know a really a question I ask quite a lot and I get a very puzzled look in the car from learners and trainees is well what don't you know about that and we often kind of get like a bit of a blank a blank expression at first because like well I don't know it I can't tell you and I get that but then we've got to you know I I am just one person with one life experience and I can only bring what I know into the car because I've also got blind spots and shadows going on and I only know what I know you know one of the first thing they'll tell anybody you get in my car is I don't have the answer to everything I don't know

32:22everything there will be a time at some point that you might ask me a question and I will not know what the answer is but I'll help you find it you know that's my role is to help you to develop and train and become the person you want to be as a driving instructor there is there is context to that there is syllabus to that I guess but how you or what you become around that is who you want to be and I may it help you do that. I want to touch back on one thing is that there because I think you kind of brushed over it slightly which was the idea of what we work into what and I think the key thing here is to make sure that if you're a PDI you're working to what the same goal as your trainer because the PDI's goal could simply be to pass a part free as quickly and efficiently as possible whereas as your goal as a trainer I might be to create the best instructor possible so that they can go off and create safe drivers around as fast as quickly as possible

33:24so is that something that you would be advising to anyone listening to this to make sure that a the the the trainer is aware of what you're working towards but just to make sure that I suppose also you're aware of what you work into what yeah I think it's equally important that both people in the trainer trainee role know what we're working towards but I think it's equally important that you check in regularly on that because it changes you know you might start with a trainee who's goal is to get through the part three as quickly and efficiently as possible but then as they start to delve into stuff the time isn't as pressured pressured for them because I like actually I want to know more about this and actually I want to be better about this before I go into it so the goals and things shift as well so I think it's important that you yes you do set a goal I think it's good to have a goal I'm not always a that's the word I'm looking for I'm not always sort of

34:26going to be fixed on it a goal setting in the car that is rigid a tent and I have a rigid goal setting I want something that we're working towards because if we're not working towards something we could get very lost it's good to have something to be working towards but also to know that at any point this is adaptable and it might change and the communication and the vulnerability is important because it's okay for us to change and it's important that they know it's okay to change as much as we know that as the trainer as well hello my name is Stuart Lockfay and the founder at Bright Coaching driving instruction has changed today's learners need more than just skills and practice and reps to pass a driving test they need coaching that addresses the higher levels of the GDE on every single lesson that's where we created the professional diploma in coaching and behavioural change for safe driving the

35:29secreted qualification equivalent to a BTEC professional award level 45 gives you the tools and recognition to transform the way you teach with Bright Coaching you can leave the DVSA behind in step into a modern learner focused approach one that shifts the paradigm of driver education for instructors for pupils and for parents all across the country at Bright Coaching we are training the next generation of driving instructors to check availability for our online cohorts and in person cohorts please visit the website at brightcoaching.net and you can also sign up to our mailing list where you'll be informed of all the latest early-bond discounts as they become available. With standards checks due to return in 2026 ensure your success with kit. Knowledgeable instructor training the UK's most comprehensive instructor training provider whether you are looking for class from based workshops in car training online webinars or resources to explore in your own time such as our ebook collections or our video hub for short videos that

36:32you can watch between lessons make sure 2026 is a hit with kit. I do have a file at this point that says to share why we became instructors and therefore how we've changed so yes well relatively briefly Tom because I think we've actually got a similar instance in this Tom kind of what was your reasoning behind coming in and instructor those many years ago and how was that changed? I mean I've said this before to many people my intention was to never be in the industry 15 years later. I came into it because I was I was self-employed at the time. I wasn't kind of enjoying what I was doing quite as much but I didn't know what I wanted to go into. Some friends at the time were driving instructors and said you enjoy driving. What don't you do this? And I suppose my added bit in which frustrates me a little bit now. I came from a sports coach in background to do with training and things like

37:33that and actually I was kind of told to leave a lot of that at the front door when I became an instructor. So my my intention was to do the job for a couple of years and then kind of find something bigger and better and I a bit wrong to say this but I kind of get a little bit annoyed people who come to the industry not taking it as serious as I do now but I have to understand that I came from that process and so I have to correct myself and recognize there are going to be a percentage of people who come into it with perhaps not the long term in plan but do end up with that. And if you'd have asked me when I first qualified will you be doing this 15 years later would you be doing what you're doing? You know I never would have imagined Wednesday this week I spent the whole day at Bristol in a DVSA meeting. I never imagined I would have been doing that 15

38:33years ago when I first qualified and this is to try and put the industry in a place where I another people think that it needs to be and you know that that for me is what's kept me in it as well as road safety. For me I like look at it the eligibility thing I was 21 and over I was just 21. I remember I I wanted to be in the driving instructor I run it clean out looking back because I enjoyed my driving lessons and it's only now that I actually realised that little dad and lessons were actually that good but at the time I really enjoyed them he was a nice guy you know and and I enjoyed learning to drive and I I knew when I was learning to drive that I wanted to be a driving instructor so I was only 17. 17 I passed the day after my 18th birthday and so 17 when I and it's it's interesting and similar to what Tom's just said I've got to kind of step back

39:39sometimes and realise that the things that might bug me sometimes were me and I and I didn't have I didn't have that perception the same as these people don't have that that perception now because I vividly remember I come from that I'm almost 17 years qualified now so I'm really showing my age at the two but I I vividly remember it was the the time when red was huge there was everywhere there was on the other it's on the tele you know everywhere you might you could see the driving school and that's who I ended up signing up to because I was naive didn't look at it just went for who was putting the advertising in my face and I vividly remember a phone in them when I was 19 because I didn't know that I had to be 21 on over I didn't know that and I didn't help I unheld my license for three and a half years at this point I don't need it for a year like so there was all of this stuff so I started to qualify so I previously this I was in retail management

40:45and I actually loved retail management I actually loved my job I think it's because I was surrounded by people and I love being surrounded by people and things like that I'm talking to people and getting to know people I was just kind of also a word from a personal perspective I was going to want a family at some point as well and I'd kind of reached so I'd got to large store management that's that's the level I've got to from working in retail from being 16 and I've got to this large store so I was managing a team of about 50 people and my next my only next step in that business would have been to go to area manager but I knew that that role woulden't have suited a family there's no way I could have had young children doing that job so and I knew I wanted children so I I had to make a choice at that point and actually my family started before I made the choice because I had I had my eldest who's nearly 19 now when I was

41:4822 so I had Lucy then and she was two months old when I registered from a DBS I'm a PR and she was two months old and I qualified it took me about 18 months so she was coming up for two when I qualified so I had a two year old when I started training was difficult like really really difficult I had a you know six months old baby like going out and training I was on mat leave then I had to go back to work so by the time because it was very much do you part one then we'll do your part two so I went back just as I've done my part two I had to go back to work I had no choice but to go back full time so I was working a 40-50 hour job with a nine month old baby and I was putting at least 10 hours plus it into my training per week from my part three so it was it was quite stressful really looking back not quite sure how I managed to spend so many plates but then I fast forward 18 years to be being nearly 41 and I'm still doing the same stuff I'm still spending a lot of

42:52plates maybe some things will never change you've got really good to end there I have got really good the exception to my rule that no one leaves school wanting to be a driving instructor you have the exception so I did yeah yeah I'm at college again for me I'll keep this fairly brief I actually at the time professional gambler and decided that it wasn't the most reliable words were in a living so I wanted something that was flexible I could be in charge my on diary and I like driving turns out that you don't drive and it's actually going to be beginning not really that much in charge of your diary especially when you look for a national driving school and interestingly you mentioned red there I'm right I started we read and I remember going down there on a bit two day business seminar and they asked they were trying to work out how to get customers how to get pupils and I said how would you discover red my answer was you were the first

43:52one that popped up on Google so I think that's an interesting point to say that anyone listening to this say he's thinking about becoming a driving instructor you don't just go for the first thing that pops up on Google so I'm going to ask you both for a tip now and the first one that comes in gets to give the first tip so the other one is then stuck as a character the same tip so what tip would you give to someone if they're thinking about coming in a instructor in terms of where to get started how to go with Emma I'll let you go first I'll say tons of gent you would have made it a competition Terry I wasn't it's spulled so you know whatever carry on I think my tip would be to look beyond the surface look beyond the surface and go and go and look in your local area who it's difficult because it's who who's perceiving to be is is a social media thing isn't it and it

44:52doesn't necessarily mean that a job is being done but how to you know go beyond the surface maybe even going ask a local school if you can get in the back of the car see what it's about before you even go and see what the job is about before you apply for it like you wouldn't apply for any other job necessarily I suppose some people would based on a title that was ambiguous you know you'd want to know more about the job and what role you'll be playing and what that looks like and things like that so yeah my tip would be go beyond the surface find out what it what being the driving structure is I agree be curious and yeah just it it I think is very much about talking to different people about it so you can get different experiences when we we're driving when we get somebody contact us who's interested in becoming a driving instructor will often try and put them in

45:56contact with somebody who's already training at the moment so that they can give their opinion on what they think the process is like you know I think the industry is amazing but they might think that actually it's much harder than they thought it was going to be or there are other complications that they haven't considered so I think if you're curious and you gather as much information as you can then you you get to make a more informed decision my example is always when you go to a restaurant I like going to a restaurant with a good menu because if there's more to choose from I get to look at all those things if the only thing they've got is vegetarian options I'm not as pleased. Well vegan options would be the preference I think interestingly I wonder if there's too much choice on the menu at the minute but maybe we'll get into that later I do want to get more into the training specifically who we're going how we do it but I think it's worth just touching a little bit more around that process because when you come to the passing the part

47:04to we then need to look at training for a part of free and there's a few different ways to do this but the basic premises either a ping-pong license or not a ping license so Tom I think I want to come to you first just to kind of explain that process for us please. And I mean this is a question that often comes up when when I get instructors who contact me about you what should they do what what haven't you should they go down and I think it's very much a personal decision that they've got to make on their financial position their their current life position what just what they do generally within their life so if you want to go down a training license route you have to complete a minimum amount of hours and I'm sure we're going to talk about this anyway that minimum amount is not enough but it's set by DVSA so you have to complete a minimum of 40 hours within six months

48:04of applying for your training license so it has to be valid within that that six month period what that training license will do is allow you to charge money or money's worth for driving lessons and there are only two times in which you can do that and that is if you have a training license or if you have a ADI certificate or what's known as a green badge you can charge money or money's worth for driving lessons under those two situations whether you choose to go down the training license as I said is is very much up to you it doesn't work for everyone and an example I give you is I've helped a trainee the last couple of years she's just recently qualified she listens to your podcast Terry so she'll probably hear us she knows who she is hi Jane and her going down a trainee license just wasn't really something that that she thought was going to work for her so she did lots of training she got herself a vehicle set up ready with dual controls in

49:07in fact she bought it off another driver in his truck to so it was ready and rare in to go and alongside her job that she currently had she would deliver free driving lessons because she cannot charge money or money's worth for driving lessons and that does also include people giving you money for fuel and this is important that people understand this because if you are found out to be taking any kind of money for those lessons that is a reasonably good reasonably good reason to be removed from being a trainee or a PDI and under fit and proper from DVSA that that could be a reason of why they remove you and say you cannot continue so that really worked for her and I've got a few other trainees at the moment who have full-time jobs and they don't want to give that up until they are fully qualified so they deliver free driving lessons in their spare time they gain training along the way and when they're ready they go and take the the part three and hopefully qualify

50:09to the brilliant explanation and I just want to come back just on the the the taking money aspect because I want to give one other example because I thought the way you explain it was brilliant but this week I received some tomatoes someone gave me some fresh tomatoes as a as a thank you for the lessons it's a 95 year old chap had grown them himself and he gave me some fresh tomatoes if you are not on a training license or you're not qualified ADI you are not allowed to accept those tomatoes are you correct yeah what what are your thoughts and that annoys me it's personal preference but where do you think it suits someone to go on a training such a big license as opposed to where it might suit someone to to not basically yeah I think I think I think back to my own like there was absolutely no way on earth I was wedging in a pink license in my life at that time like I had a two year old

51:10well I like team of tholds I had a full-time job I had a household to maintain pink badge was just not even on my radar at all because it would have just thrown my life into absolute chaos so I I don't do any I didn't even my it's interesting and this and this is suppose is where we look at old-style you know qualifying to what it is now I didn't actually teach my first learner till after I was qualified my first learner was after I'd qualified which I've looked at now and I think wow look how did that even happen and it's no wonder that I threw myself into training because I was feeling so out of depth so out of depth when I first qualified so I think we know we could talk about the pluses and the negatives for this probably for the rest of the day but I think it does come down

52:16to what's what's going on in your life I personally and it does come from that personal perspective because it was my journey I think that people should try to at least teach one person for free if they don't go on a pink badge because then they've got that reality of what it is you know to have a learner driver because it's very different than me playing the role of one although I have got playing role player learner driver down to a tee these days you know it's it's still not the same so regardless of how how well I might play that role so you know it it has got to be about the balance because I could flip this other way and go you know for the ones who who put their jobs and go on a pink badge there's conversation that have there as well in that you know is that really the right thing for you to do it's not my decision to make but let's talk about this let's look at the black the blind spots again you know let's look at the stuff that

53:18you might not have thought about and I often encourage people when they're making that decision to work backwards you know don't think about where you are now and what it might look like but actually envision yourself why you're at work this week finishing work at 5 p.m. or whatever you're doing if you're doing a nine to five and then going out and doing a driving lesson literally ask yourself when you've come home and eating your you're even in meal with your family do you really want to go out and do a driving lesson now because that's going to tell you what that's going to feel like potentially you know so I often get people to try and work backwards and and put themselves in that scenario as much as possible how is it going to feel like you've quit your job and you've only you know you've you've got sort X amount of learners how is that going to be mentally because it's it's a very different perspective to what you use to is there a middle ground that can be found somewhere but I think again it's it's very much a

54:21conversation to help them see the the highs the lows of what both of those options might look like in case worth just mentioning here that when the fear of us qualified it was a different part of our test so if anyone listening now it is different there there would be an examiner would sit in the front and roll play a pupil so in theory you wouldn't actually need to do anything with a pupil until as you alluded to him are you qualified and then you're going to get a pupil whereas now the part for you will have a pupil in the driver seat the examiner will be sat in the back watching so I will probably suggest it's it's better to at least teach someone before that but he's just want to throw this seat you're going to ask you this if someone didn't want to get a dual controlled car and then not on a pink license is there a way that could still train even if they didn't have a dual control car because they still wanted to keep the jobs so therefore they maybe couldn't afford a second car or whatever yeah I mean there's ways around around things

55:24it's got to be very carefully considered and you've got to consider things like insurances and all of that type of stuff I have done it before with a PDI who didn't have a dual control car who taught their learner driver for an hour a week in my car but the premise was I had to be in the car so I was sat in the back but they're on page at that point anyway so this is part of their ongoing training and development anyway but they're teaching a learner driver or I've had people teach my learner drivers you know about that three-way thing where it's predominantly my learner driver but my PDIs may be observed half of the lesson and then had to go at doing some teaching themselves you know so there are ways of working around this for you know if I'd have had that option then and I probably did they just didn't know about it if I'd have had this option back then

56:28that probably would have been how I would have liked to have trained through my part three stuff to give me the option of having a learner driver I'd never used dual controls ever till I had to use them which is it's quite scary you know it's quite scary and I mean I am a big advocate now that my biggest dual control is my mouse but you know I massively advocate that the biggest dual control in the car is your mouth but as they are there for a purpose you know they are there for safety so you know I think I would encourage people to find ways to do some teaching with learners and actually see it's very different teaching me as your learner driver then it is with a real learner very very different at that point you may actually realise you don't like the job you don't know it's it's it's happened you know or you might realise actually I do

57:30want to go on a pink pink badge I do want to maybe give up two days at work and drop my hours if that's possible you know work around things so it's good to at least explore it before you pick which route you're going to go down I think I'm doing some training for somebody at the moment who's pretty much in that example you've given Terry they have a full-time job they don't want to have a dual control car just yet they are delivering free lessons and we helped find them some work on social media in our local area and they have found two people who have their own vehicles and they travel to their house meet the learner and they are a supervising driver that learner has got insurance they've checked to make sure it's all okay they were very lucky to find two people in that situation like that but I think sometimes you make your own luck as well by

58:33looking in the right places and having the guiding hand behind you to give you the advice and this this trainee hopefully when they go and pass their part three they can then make the decision right am I ready to go and get a car now and what situations am I going to choose from there so it can be done you just you are limited a little bit more with options like anything there's an ideal scenario you know the ideal scenario is that you you go and get your car you put dual controls in it and then you start teaching us as not as many as you come but you know a decent number of people to go to the experience but if you can't do that there are ways around it but I want to move on to the pink license I think this is probably more common and I think it's definitely more complicated so Tom you stated before that 40 hours was not enough so talk to me about this 40 hours do you want to talk to you about the 40 hours or why I don't

59:36think it's enough I think you're both four more so okay so the currently the 40 hours and I think this is worth noting for people who are listening because I have slight anxiety over this in in order to apply for a trainee license you have to have a sponsor and that sponsor can be an ADI or it can be a driving school in in those terms you have to have certain paperwork signed and one of those sets of paperwork is the ADI 21T generally is the one most people go for and on there there are 20 topics that you are signing to say that you've completed however and DVSA are well aware of this they are looking at trying to change the paperwork probably by the time we all retire um we we sign this paperwork to say we've completed these topics and I don't know about you Emma but I hardly cover any of those topics because they were based on the old style of training and

1:00:42the old what were known as PSTs preset tests and now we look far more at the the skills and the the kind of emotional development from a learner than doing the topics they've got on this paperwork but it is a legal requirement and it is a document that we both sign to say we've completed this but I'm quite open to my trainees to explain to them of the process that DVSA are well aware of this it's not fraudulent we have completed it it's just the words that are on this paperwork are slightly different to the topics we've looked at so so that would be one of my first things to kind of let people know of you have to complete this minimum and within the regulations one quarter of all training must be in car and it must be with an an adi is generally what's within those regulations which is scary because that could mean that you do 10 hours of in car training

1:01:47and 30 hours of online training and you would then be able to have a training license and the unfortunate thing is that DVSA doesn't really have a way of checking the quality of that training that you've received and I have had people in the past who have approached me and asked if I will just sign their paperwork to say they've done their hours and then we do the hours after now I've always turned that down because I'd prime myself in the Improfessional and if I was caught doing that I am absolutely confident I would be removed under fit and proper from DVSA rightly so because I'm being fraudulent so yeah it can be a bit of a minefield for people but if you are with a reputable trainer and your training is suitable for modern day driver training you should be in a good position. 40 hours that's not

1:02:54let me refress is that recommended out of hours or is that the minimum number of hours? That is the minimum number of hours that is set by DVSA in order to apply for a training license so I could go the other way there is no regulation that states you have to do any training at all in order to go and take the tests so you could go and do part one attempt part two and attempt part three without any training at all now I have heard on social media because it must be true I have heard on social media of people doing that but you know we currently have 45 or just over 45,000 ADIs on the register I'd say it's probably less than 0.1% of people that do that regarding that training that 40 hours is a minimum then what some of the problems that you're seeing like not necessarily from PDIs coming to you but like within the industry itself and how that's treated

1:03:58I mean I think there's a few different things that I've seen there unfortunately although I think this is less so but it is still prominent the 40 hours some trainers are still basing it on what is required on that form and that is an outdated form even DVSA recognize that and there's nothing really within that form that talks about the factors that we spoke about earlier the emotional regulation or the thoughts and feelings that go behind driving it's all driving related topics or the lower levels of the goals for driver education matrix so to say to somebody that you've got to go and do 40 hours it is us trying to put everybody in the same basket and Emma said earlier everybody is an individual so I've had instructors come to me who are teachers and they've had coaching

1:04:59experience by each other we had one year before last and he he was so lucky in that he fact that he got his his tests come through but he qualified in less than seven months and part of that is because he passed everything first time but he'd already got lots of teaching and coaching experience all we spent our time doing was relating what he already knew to the new topic of educating you know drivers where you may have somebody who has zero experience in any type of teaching and uncoaching and actually has very little experience of more advanced driving well then they may need double triple that amount of hours but it is stipulated by DVSA that is the minimum that is required yeah and I think I'd put in there as well when it comes to I'm not going to name names because that's not very professional of me there are some driving schools out there that will take

1:06:06that that 25% that 10 hours one to one in car and will give and deliver 30 hours online but the deliverance of that online is done to a room of people and how how do we and I think this this probably touches on urban me because it comes to the school education system like how was a teacher stood up and teaching 30 kids with 30 individual attitudes to learning and abilities and strengths and weaknesses and things like that and it kind of gives me the classroom vibe you know it gives me that kind of I'm the trainer and I'm going to train all you people who are on the screen here with me online and I'm just basically going to stand and talk at you for a very amount of time and whether you grasp what I'm talking about or not is irrelevant I'm going to sign these hours off to say that you've had them and I think were then does the curiosity and the

1:07:09transparency come in because how do I pick out the person who's on the training session that needs a deeper learning on a particular skill or topic then the other person who's sat on the other side of the screen who's grasped it and then and has got it and wants to move on like how do I balance that when I've got all of these people now I'm not against online training I think it's very valuable I attend online training quite regularly but as a qualified instructor learning and developing skills I already have not necessarily somebody who's coming in learning something new and I think that's where the difference is and I think what concerns me about the minimum 40 hours is that people see it as the goal to achieve yeah I just need to get to 40 hours again there's a blind spot for the trainee unbeknownst to them and not the the fault in there how they are trained and the weight

1:08:11delivered they are going to accept from the person that they've signed up to train with whether that is correct or not for them and as much as we I'm sure definitely the three people who are here right now were not aiming for this hierarchy I think a classroom creates that hierarchy just from its nature not because the person who's delivering is trying to create the hierarchy but just from its own nature there is a teacher and ex amount of students and how do we then weave together part one part two part three how do we work with client-centered learning how do we get our trainees to adopt client-centered learning when they're not the client at the center for themselves it doesn't make sense for me um client-centered learning not clients centered learning I think I just want to speak to the people listening for a second and just say that

1:09:16this is where you need to take a look almost in words we spoke before about where you want to be what you want to achieve do you want to be the person does the absolute minimum necessary and I think that's what you have to consider and if you do that's your choice I'm not judging it I'm a little bit I don't know but I'm not overly judging you for it you have a right to come along and say the DVS said this is the minimum I need to do so therefore I'm going to do the minimum and you have every right to do with that what I would encourage anyone listening is to stick step back and go do I want to be that person you know and then there's what I appreciate costs come into it as well but there's ways around that there are webinars there are free webinars there are the ability to sit in on driving lessons and this kind of stuff stuff that can count towards this but it shouldn't I would encourage anyone not to go what's the least I need to do to qualify I think I would really put that out there but let's say someone's done those 40 hours

1:10:19or whatever number of hours have done to hopefully more they then get a pink license a training license Emma what should they be considering when it comes to that license and the lessons on the training they're going to deliver over that period of having that license I think the first thing to consider and again I would encourage people to work back with this in regards to firstly the the what are they looking to get out of this pink badge you know it's a training badge so you know it's there to help them develop and train and get some experience before becoming an ADI so so they're I would encourage them to when they're making the decision when they're making the choices with regards to do I keep my job do I not keep my job do I drop some hours at work do I get a dual control bit all of these things that we've been talking about I would encourage people if

1:11:19they then choose to go down the pink badge work backwards with that think about what potential investment into training you're going to need now why you're on this pink badge because potentially they have opted to do 20 additional hours of training are they've chosen the supervision of 20% of the lessons so depends on which which way they're going to go what's the cost of that what does that look like with their trainer you know what days and times is that going to work for them and the trainer and their pupils and I always encourage mine to sort of break even within that you know so earn what you need to learn and use that training badge to the best of your your abilities and capabilities for what it's there for without getting too bogged down with making it something about earning at this point because one it might be taken away so you don't want it to become you know

1:12:19you don't want to be relying on it if if you're relying on that to pay your mortgage you know it can be taken away either through not getting through the pass rate or because you realise that this job isn't for you you know there's various all sorts of different reasons as to why it's not necessarily a stable income at that point so yeah I encourage them to work backwards what's the what's the minimum you need to get out of this in order to make this pink badge work from a training perspective and then let's have a look at how that fits into your life how does that work with my availability as your trainer how does that work with what you know what your pupils might come from what days and times are we advertising here you know all of that type of stuff so there's a lot to kind of to think think about and again highlight the blind spots so that they can make a sensible decision ever mentioned there about the the training essential required when you're on a pink license which is basically supervision for one out of every five

1:13:19lessons or 20 hours of additional training what you thought on that you know is that again the minimum you know should we just be going for one of those should we be just doing not necessarily as much as we can but as much as we need and kind of ignoring the minimum just making sure we that we were actually achieving the minimum but doing what we need but yeah I mean it worked both ways doesn't it there is the potential where some people might not need that 20 hours because they've already come from a background they may have already been an instructor who left the industry and has come back into it but I think it's good that there is a minimum amount I just think it's a bit low but even that that 20 hours when generally as we've already alluded to the rod to routes you go down most people in DVSA kind of admit this most people choose the additional training route which means you have to complete an additional 20 hours of training within the first 12 weeks

1:14:24or three months of that training license if you don't do that unless there are extenuating circumstances you may not be allowed a second training license if you required it and potentially you may not be accepted onto the register as an adi if you qualified because you haven't adhered to the regulations that you agreed to again with that 20 hours if that's the route you've gone down the regulation still apply with a minimum of quarter of that has to be done in car so 5% of those 20 hours should be done in car the rest could be done online 5% 5% yeah 20 hours yeah but only 5 hours would then need to be done in car that's Friday afternoon trying to do maths at the best of time is not good but yeah so your original thing there which is there is a minimum but I think people should be should be looking while above that we do this with

1:15:29learners I don't want my learner to be test standard and I hate that term with a passion I don't want my learners to be test-anded I want them to be a good driver who can make their own decisions which should be while above what's required to pass the test because we know that the average human is going to get nervous when they go to a test because we all do that and we we we are going to make silly mistakes that we might not normally make but as long as they are well above what's required we should still be able to go and pass so as you said earlier people look at just that bear minimum you may go and scrape through but would you want if you were going to hospital to have surgery would you want your surgeon to have just scraped through you know would you want the the anesthetist to have just scraped through or would you want them to be at the top of their game and still improving I know which one I would choose with those two differences there we've got

1:16:32the supervision and we've got the additional training what are the the benefits for anyone listening now that is considering this what are the benefit but I suppose ideally all three of us would like the someone in this x-ray should do both but if someone was kind of waiting on which I oratize what are the benefits of each Emma do you want to I think it I think it comes down to the individual like for me this kind of comes down to like learning styles and things like that because you know what what and by this quote as well let's not forget that they've done a lot of training they've probably figured themselves out as a trainee a little bit better by now as well and that you know they've got a little bit of sort of understanding of what going on in my experience the vast majority do go up down the 20 additional hours but the vast majority of that is a supervised session anyway so even though it's we've gone down the additional training route a lot of it is

1:17:38supervised training anyway you know we start with a supervised lesson then there's feedback given at the end of that and then there might be a standalone one-to-one between trainer and training next time to to do some training based on something that might have come out of that supervised lesson you know a skill set that they want to work on or or what have you and then the next session might be another supervised session where we're looking to see whether that skill's been implemented or if anything else is going on so I think you know the additional training for me anyway and that I am just talking from personal perspective here a lot of that additional training is done with some supervision in there anyway and I think that way you get more of a blended learning in that it's not just isolated to one-to-one and you get to see them live with the student and see what that you know what that that relationship looks like in order to then create a pathway for

1:18:39their own one-to-one learning through their additional hours and I often find that once people I think they go in with the mindset of I'm just going to do 20 hours but maybe because of we how do we blended it and they get quite a lot out of the supervision and then the feedback and then the one-to-one session afterwards that in my experience a lot of people have do have more than 20 hours because they get to like that that sort of input that you have in helping them support their learner and then helping them grow based on that as well so for me it should be a blending of the two anyway it shouldn't necessarily be the additional hours as being a one-to-one thing I think there's a lot of value in the supervision because you get to see them live when I reached out to you before this Emma I asked if it's anything you specifically wanted to cover and use a time management and I want to

1:19:40drip that in here because when I went on my pink license about nine years ago I remember asking the driving school how many hours the PDI's normally do and the response was about five and therefore I did about 40 hours and then so realized that that's really difficult to do 40 hours as a PDI in fact not take that back it's not difficult to fight hours as a PDI it's difficult to train properly doing 40 hours as a PDI because the pink license or the trainee license is exactly that it's a trainee license it's designed to help you train and as you alluded to earlier Emma as well yes we want to earn money from it we want you as a PDI to earn money from it to cover your training you know it's a great way so that actually even if you are all the way from one that are failing it's a great way to make sure it doesn't cost you as much overall but what would you be saying to people regarding the time management on that pink license yeah I think I mean one of the

1:20:42biggest things that is is said in in the car when we get to pink license bit is that for every driving lesson you deliver you need to equally match that time in reflection as a minimum as a minimum if you can give it more give it more you know but I so when when I'm talking about time management particularly around a pink badge this isn't about how many hours of driving glass and time you can deliver an in-ex amount of days that you can do this because the learning just the same as it is with your learner the learning isn't necessarily happening in the deliverance of the lesson partly it is but a lot of the learnings happening in the reflection afterwards and how we then reapply that back into the next session or into our all the learners or into who we are as a person that's self-awareness and self-reflection thing that we talked about earlier on so when I'm talking

1:21:44about time management I get them to think realistically that it's not the amount of learners that you're going to have does not equally and equate to the amount of hours that you will work so if you've got five that doesn't mean you need to find five hours in a week you need to find at least 10 if you've got five learners at least 10 because you need to leave space for your own reflection your own time away from the lessons to think back over what happened that space that needs to be created needs time and it needs proper time it's not I'll think about it why I'm eating your matey or I'll eat it I'll do it why I'm you know preparing to go to bed I'll have a think about it before I go to sleep you know it needs to be proper reflection time and that's where I met what I mean about time management I think there's not a lot in invested or sort of promoted maybe from from trainers to the PDI who through no fault of their own don't know this you know we've got to

1:22:49remember that they don't know this that the learning isn't happening necessarily with the learner in the car it's in the training it's in the developments it's in the reflection so there needs to be time embedded in that and that's where I was going with the time management thing. Nathan you want to try that again anything you would like to add on to that song? No I agree with with what Emma said there it's I think sometimes people can fall into the trap of thinking that by going on a trainee license they're going to get lots of experience teaching learners but experience doesn't mean you're any good it just shows how much you've done or how long you've done it and and I I'm going to relate to something that you often say I was going to call you Steve sorry Terry. No I was going to call you Steve it could relate something that you say Terry. I've now got to call him Steve. Yes do you see PDI? Does not how much CPD you do

1:23:53it's about actioning it and putting it into practice and and and that's where I kind of definitely on the same line with Emma is that you might go and deliver a lesson but you've got to go and reflect on that and you've got to be able to make sure that what are you basing that good lesson on is it just because you didn't nearly crash or is it because actually you maximise the learning process and you trudge you you taught that client in in a manner that worked for them but you treated them as an individual through the whole process and you didn't crash so yeah that those would be the bits I I'd add in there. Hello my name is Stuart Lockfield I'm the founder at Bright Coaching Driving instruction has changed. Today's learners need more than just skills and practice and reps to pass a driving test they need coaching that addresses the higher levels of the GDE on every single lesson. That's where we created the professional diploma in coaching and behavioural

1:24:55change for safe driving. The secreted qualification equivalent to a BTEC professional award level 45 gives you the tools and recognition to transform the way you teach with Bright Coaching you can leave the DVSA behind instead and to a modern learner focused approach one that shifts the paradigm of driver education for instructors for pupils and for parents all across the country. At Bright Coaching we are training the next generation of driving instructors. To check availability for our online cohorts and in-person cohorts please visit the website at BrightCoaching.net and you can also sign up to our mailing list where you'll be informed of all the latest early podcast games as they become available. Worried about your part three or standards check? Can't seem to get it right? Knowledgeable instructor training have the kit that you need. Classroom based CCL workshops are two day in-car rescue kit and our video hub are specifically designed to not only help you to pass the tests but to also give you what you need to deliver great CCL lessons. Whatever it is

1:26:02that is the missing bit. Knowledgeable instructor training has the kit for you. That's on the training license is six months long so what happens if during the six months you take your part three test and fail? So if you are unsuccessful at a part three attempt you are supposed to do five additional hours of training which would then need to be filled up onto a form. This is all within the regulations, the motor car regulations. What I would say there again and this is where it's a little bit frustrating you have to do a minimum of five hours but with all additional training one quarter of that needs to be in-car. So one quarter of five hours needs to be in-car. I'm not very good at maths I'm not even going to try and work that out but again I would say try not to look at it as the bare minimum I would look at

1:27:03actually if you have been unsuccessful what were the contributing factors to that and what time do you need to develop it? Instead of I just need to do five hours well you may need another 10 hours you might need 15 hours it might be even longer although I think if you've got a good trainer behind you if you've had an unsuccessful attempt you hopefully shouldn't need another 20 hours on top of that they should be something that it is relatively simple to address but we don't live in an ideal world. So yeah so if you've been unsuccessful you should really do within the regulations another five hours of additional training which needs to be signed on the relevant forms and then if you apply for a second trainee license generally DVSA would want this information to make sure that you have kept up with the the agreement that is in place for trainee licence holders.

1:28:03Anything else would like to talk John regarding this area before we move on to how to find good training? Yes I've got to do one one quick thing which I think is probably worth mentioning but I haven't spoken to you about this before and this is just advertising your self as a trainee and I think having a little bit of additional information here I've seen this week alone two trainees on social media with big driving schools who are advertising them self. So we've I've spent hours talking to DVSA about this and the registrar at the moment down Russell he's he's given lots of good information on this. So as a as a PDI who's on a trainee license you can advertise in the fact that Steve my trainee he could advertise that up driver training has got driving lessons in the area please contact up driver training

1:29:06and you can find out more information. What Steve can't do is advertise on social media to say that Steve's driving school under representation of up driver training or driver trainer whoever it is because you're misleading the public in that you are a driving school when you're not. You also must stipulate or you should stipulate on any advertising that you are giving that you are a trainee driving instructor and the advice from DVSA is don't put the the the acronym PDI because most people don't know what an ADI is let alone a PDI. So if you are advertising your sponsoring ADI your sponsoring school it's good to put their contact details on. You should put on there that you are a trainee driving instructor so that you are adhering to the fact that you're not misleading any of members of the public so under the driving school or the

1:30:12sponsor and please put down that you are a trainee driving instructor so that you're not misleading would be the two main parts that I'd try and get through to people. But I want to continue with this one and a first then Tom. I'll let you come back afterwards kind of the same question. When someone is choosing a sponsor or choosing where or how to get the training, what are the key things that should be looking for and how do they know if that's training is good? The first thing and I I suppose this is because this is how we do it at a driving training. The first thing I want to meet that person face to face, I encourage that to happen because we are all humans, we are not meant to get on with everybody in the world, it's not how this works, even in professional relationships, there are going to be people that you are happy to work with and there are going to be people that you are not happy to work with regardless of what the context is or the professionalism or the qualifications.

1:31:18You know, so I always encourage people to go and get a feel for the person who is going to be training them, not the person who owns the driving school, all the person who is the lead trainer, the person who is going to be training them because that person is the person you're going to spend the vast majority of your time with and this person is a person that you need to be able to ask questions, you need to be able to potentially have awkward conversations at times. You know, this is the person who is going to see your vulnerability. So, you know, the first thing I do, it would encourage anybody to do is go and meet the people and ask if you can meet the person who will be training you, not the driving school manager because that's a person who you will never see again probably after that initial meeting. So that would be the first thing that I would say encourage people to do. After that, I would want to encourage people to ask the trainers what makes them a trainer. You know, what have they done in order to become a trainer? Not necessarily a qualification

1:32:23because we don't have one, but looking at things like, you know, what do they do for their own CPD? What do they do, you know, what qualifications have they got if any? You know, what, how do they work? Can they speak to all the trainees? Can they speak to all the driving instructors in that school? Can they speak to, if there is a manager, can they speak to some, you know, all the different people within the business? Is that an open door to all of the access to the whole business? You know, so is that a possibility? Because I think that allows them to see the business as a whole as well, and let some get a bit of a feel as to how they might be treated within the training process, what they might be treated it from the business perspective of being in that business, what kind of contact they have from the trainer, what can they expect? You know, and all of us have got limits, we've all got, you know, times that we work and times that we don't work.

1:33:28My mind get very blurry, but I think that, you know, it's good to know that stuff, and then finally, I would encourage them to ask, what does this course look like? Can they see the materials that they were going to be using? Is there an online part of this? Is there a workbook to this? Is there textbooks to this? Like, can I see what this learning process may look like? You know, what's the structure of this? What are my learning materials? Is there a syllabus that I'm going to be following? All of that type of stuff so that they can see basically as wide open as they can what they're walking into? One of the, the, the, the last things I always say to anybody who comes and meets me for potential training, one of the last things I say to them is before you come back to me, go and speak to other people. Go and speak to other people,

1:34:31and see what they offer you, because it might not be what I offer, that might be for the better, it might be for the worse, you know, so go and find all the people to speak to, don't just leave this to just this one person, and you may think, do you know what? I absolutely love this person, I love what she's going to deliver, I love what the business ethos looks like, and that's great, that's exactly how we want you to feel on that first, that first meeting. However, it's the only post you've got if you've not gone and seen anybody else. So how do you know I'm good? How do you know what I'm going to deliver is good? How do you know we're going to work well together when you haven't put me against something else? So go and speak to I always recommend at least, at least three, five if you can, and go from there. I'm not sure I can add anything else in, to be honest, I know, I think yeah, I would agree with absolutely everything that you said there,

1:35:36I agree with the importance of them speaking to other people, to find out what is available, because this is a personal journey they're going to be in, and yes, as a driving school owner, I have a training package that I think is superb, but it might not suit everybody, and so people have to recognize that, going to meet your trainer and like you say, not the person, not the sales person, not the phone, or you know, not the manager, but the person that you are going to be spending the time with, that is such a huge thing, because the person on the end of the phone might be the nicest person you've ever spoken to, that doesn't mean that's going to be the same for the person that you're spending 46D's 80 hours plus in a car with. So yeah, I'm not entirely sure I can add anything else on that, and I'm not saying that to be lazy. Let me ask you about cost specifically Tom, obviously that has to factor in, you know, we only have a certain amount of money as individuals,

1:36:42but how much should that be factored in? You know, is there a, should we, if we become a driving should we be reaching out to people not just based on cost, but potentially also saying, this is my budget, would you help me with this rather than just looking at a number and going, that's the only option. Oh yeah, absolutely, and I think with everything there is a spectrum, one of the things that I hear quite a lot from driving instructors is, you know, don't buy cheap, you know, so the more expensive ones are going to be good. Well, what I can, I could just put my prices up, that doesn't mean that I'm a really good trainer or a good instructor, and you know, I don't necessarily class myself as a good trainer, but I'm relatively cheap for my area, but that also doesn't take anything away from my training. So you're absolutely right, you've got to find a method that works for you, and the interesting thing that I've noticed sort

1:37:46of over the last few years is the two options that we are driving school offer as a pair as you go, or a package. I, the package, if you do the maths, the package, it just blows everything out, out the water, but some people still choose the pairs you go option, because they don't see it over the long term, despite this explaining it, they don't see it over the long term of, if you are going to do 80 plus hours, just top that up on a calculator and you'll see how much you're going to spend in that long run. But everybody has to find something that suits them, suits their budget as well, but we're all aware of those driving schools that are out there, who are offering training for as little as £1,600. I'm not naming, I'm not blaming, there is a catch. If you are having training for that type of price, there is a catch, and that is either,

1:38:50you are going to be signed into a contract once you qualify for probably 24 months, which means you're going to have to pay the money back at some point, or that training potentially might be substandard, or you might be doing 30 of the 40 minimum hours, with being 99 of 100 people on a Zoom call, where you're not really getting the knowledge and the understanding that you need. And I absolutely feel sorry for trainees, because it is a minefield of how to choose and what to choose. And you know, there's people probably listening, will be listening to this, thinking, what Emma said was absolutely great, or what Tom said, or what Steve said was amazing. But how do they know that? Because they don't know what they don't know. And it's just so difficult, I do pity people. I want to ask you about the other elephant in the room, which is audit. So I'm not going to add any context on this, I'm just going to let you

1:39:55explain kind of for the people listening what audit is and ask if in the art, and it's still relevant, if it holds a place, I should be considered. Okay, so the official register for driving into the trainers, firstly, so everybody knows what audit is. I think is a very controversial subject, should we say, in the industry right now? I... I'm going to end up with a pinion based here, which is my opinion, of course, because I don't have anybody else's to draw on right now. Is that it is a failing system or failed even? I won't say failing, I think it's failed, I think that's it, that's it done. And I think that I am currently of the belief that that... Well, let's look at my personal journey with this. So I started to quality, I started to

1:40:59train in 2016. I did my training courses, train the train of courses in 2016, started with my first PDI in 2017. I only had two trainees between 2017 and 2019, because I was the thought I just wanted one at a time, I didn't want two, three, four of them, I just wanted one, get that person through, then they come into the one. I did that, I got two, enough by the end of 2019, and then I applied to go on, I did some audit training, training trainer at that point, and I applied to go on to the register to do my audit on the first of March 2020. And then Covid happened. I never got my

1:42:00opportunity, I never got my opportunities to do it. In hindsight now, I'm glad I didn't, because I think it needs a massive shake up, it needs to be very different. And... Yeah, I think I want something, I want something that sets me apart from anybody being able to train a PDI. I want something that can sort of say, this purpose was really hard to be a trainer and continues to work really hard to be a trainer. But at the same time, I don't feel like I need that flag to be on my car, waving it around to say that I do a good job, because the only person who's going to be the judge job whether I do a good job is my own conscious and the people who train with me. They're the only people who can

1:43:02give me that reflection, alternately. And it's the same with a driving test, it's the same with a standard check, it's the same with an audit. It means I was good for that amount of time. It means nothing else. It means I was okay for that set amount of time. Does it mean I might get all the time there? For anyone listening and thinking about where to get the training from, I seconded what both these guys have said about having the conversation with the person that you've sent to having training with and also exploring other avenues. The thing I'm just going to chuck in as a slight addition though is there are currently about 946 podcasts and online memberships and YouTube channels and that kind of stuff. I would encourage you to explore them, not necessarily to get your training from there, but to see what people are saying and to get a feel for that person or that person's personality, that way of doing things. So that if you are the the training that

1:44:07just wants to do the bare minimum to get through, well, you can go and find someone that will do that. If you want to find someone that what offers more, whether a platform's out there, then you find those people, then you can reach out to them to have that conversation. So it doesn't have to be, all I say, scrolled from the yellow pages, doesn't have to scrolled from the yellow pages to find driving schools, that there's plenty of ways to find them. So let's move on then because I mean, this can kind of happen before the person passes their part free, but let's kind of go the premise of you qualified for the purpose of this. You then essentially potentially have to choose whether you're going to be a franchise in structure working on the franchise under someone else or independent. So who wants to take this away and talk about the difference and the process and the minuses? I feel like Tom go first this time. I was you can say I'm going to be a gentleman again, but you've been a lady. What was your question again? Sorry.

1:45:10I'll tell you about the franchisees versus independent. It's probably you go first actually because when I reached out to you, one of the first things you said was contract contract contract let's talk some maybe leading with that. I mean, to a certain degree, we might need to define what people are thinking as being independent or going down a franchise route. As we said earlier, if you're going down a trainee license route, you will have to have a sponsoring ADI that looks after that process. The chances are, I think, for the majority of even just non big driving schools or even just independent trainers, most of the ones that I know have some kind of franchise when somebody goes on a trainee license. This is my personal opinion. I think the word franchise has been absolutely ruined within our industry because it has such a negative term. What it really should do, and I don't want this to

1:46:21be into kind of a rant either, but like a traditional kind of franchise, if you go into something like a subway franchise, it's completely different to what a franchise is with a driving school. You get quite a lot of autonomy within that, as opposed to within a driving school, most places don't do that. You are in a contract and this would be my advice is that if you are going to sign any type of contract or legal document to work with a trainer, whether you're independent or whether you're going on to a bigger franchise, a bigger driving school, it is absolutely worth walking the money out to get a professional to read through that contract before you sign it, because you are going to be investing a lot of time and effort and money within this, and you need that document to be, as with all contract, it needs to be suitable for both parties. It can't

1:47:23balance on one favour or the other, but from my experience, I know some people who've signed contracts before they've even got their PRN number, so they've not even been accepted as a trainee, and they've already signed a contract to say they are going to give so much money for set amount of time. And there have been stuff in the news earlier this year, I won't give any names of driving schools whose contract was not suitable and it favored the contract and not the contract. And lots of money was taken that shouldn't have been taken. So my advice to everyone is that you should really be getting this contract read by a professional to make sure that it is fair, and if it is not, and if it doesn't suit you, don't sign it, even if you have been sold the golden story of how amazing it's going to be. Well, what should people be considering when

1:48:25they're choosing between a franchise or independence? Again, what's right for them? You know, there's a big part of what's right for them in this. Again, go and sit with somebody who is in a franchise, and go and sit with somebody who is independent. And find out what the pitfalls might be of both, because there will be pros and cons for both, but those pros and cons will be different for different people as well. So again, it comes very much down to for me as an individual decision. And I think a protocol all afternoon about what the pros and cons might be of each of these as well, but again, it comes down to what's going to work for me, what's going to work for me, pay my bills, what's going to work around my family, what's going to, you know, how's this going to impact my working life? Do I want, I'm happy to be an individual who will then very much be

1:49:26predominantly an individual or do I want to have maybe a team of people that I can call on more, you know, more regularly with the franchise. So, and what's each thing providing me, you know, not one of us here go to work just for the fun of it. None of us go just for the fun of it. We all happen, and I am speaking for the majority, so feel free to credit me, we just happen to like what we do, and we have a passion for what we do, and we enjoy what we do, which is an added bonus, you know, there's not many people that can say that they don't dread Monday morning, you know, there's not many people that can say that, but ultimately, if we won the lottery tonight, we potentially would change how we work, you know, so we go for the financial stability of what our life looks outside of work, what's going to pay the mortgage, the rent,

1:50:29what's going to pay for my children to do clubs, whatever it might be, and the choice between these two should be based around your life, not around what everybody else is doing, or, you know, what you think might look good on paper, and reiterate what Tom said about contracts, is this contract favourable to me? Not 100% because it's never going to be, there's going to be favourable to both, it's got to be, that's how a contract works, but is there things in this contract that is favourable to me? Does that work for me? Does that am I happy to be flexible on the stuff that isn't fully favourable to me, but to the driving school I might frontiers front, can I understand why this clause is in here to protect the franchise, and am I happy to sign for that?

1:51:30Do I want to work by myself? Do I want to have to do the marketing, the advertising, the managing, the, you know, do I want to do all of that stuff? I purposely pay an accountant because I do not want to account for my own business, you know, so I pay people to do things because I don't want to have to do them in my business, that's got to be a factor in if I was going to be an independent because am I going to do all of those things by myself, or is the cost, I've got to put the cost of that in as well? What's the marketing going to cost me? What's the advertising going to cost me? Does this balance out with being in a franchise? You know, there's loads and loads of different things there, but ultimately comes down to your life, why do you go to work on them? I, one of the small number of people that is an employed driving instructor, I do two days a week for a driving school called William Merrill, which is a disability driving

1:52:32school, and I'm employed in that role, but I also have my own driving school, T.C. drive, that I, I own as a business, I run as a business, I am self-employed, I'm the business owner of that, and very, very few people in this industry are employed, and I think it's something that gets missed a lot. We didn't speak about it in the training aspect earlier. The idea that could we, as a, as a someone comes in industry, you are going to have to run this business, even if you are a franchisee, you are still running that franchise, so Tom, is that something that you think goes missed a lot, and I suppose the second part of that is, should that, I've been up-chilled, would that be included in some of the training we're doing? I'm going to reverse those, so go to the second question first. Yes, it should be. Business management, I think, is just as much part of becoming a driving instructor as

1:53:33knowing how to educate somebody, because as you've just said there, am I, I have an accountant, I have a phenomenal accountant, because I'm not a specialist in numbers, in fact, you know, I struggle to get the five and 25% earlier, so that's why I pay someone else to do that, because I want an expert to do it, and I want somebody in the top of their field to be doing it. Being out on quite lucky, because even when I first left college, I went into being self-employed, so I've spent most of my working career as a self-employed person, so I have some knowledge, but we get, might be the same for you, Emma, we get lots of people who come to us as training instructors, and they have always been P-A-Y-E, so they have always had someone doing their kind of workings out and things like this, so yeah, they have to look after their own finances, but they've not had to do tax returns, they've not had to understand

1:54:36machine insurance, they've not had to understand deadlines, and that, you know, your tax year is slightly different generally for a calendar year, and all of these things, and it can just be something as simple as not recognizing about what you can claim and can't claim for as a business owner, and what your personal allowances and what you can earn before you have to start to pay tax. So, I sound a little bit cynical here, but this is my personal experience. I found that quite a lot of larger companies that have franchise options, they don't seem to want to teach that to trainees, because then the trainee is more independent, and they don't need their, the franchise to look after them, but as I said earlier, my, kind of way forward for people is you have the qualification process, but I'm training you to

1:55:37be a driving instructor and part of that is understanding how to manage your business. You mentioned earlier Tom about Subway, I tend to use McDonald's with this example, but Subway does work as well, it's just a one-sword, and my McDonald's, so it's in my brain. But I do stand by that my, my, my, Donald is the best example of a franchise in the world, but they didn't invent it, but it was kind of like they, they owned it, and I really, at least to someone as a driving instructor, because McDonald's do not provide customers for their franchises, I do not believe it's up to the, the franchise to provide pupils for its franchises. Now yes, when the training aspect comes in, as we spoke about before, that is their job, and and it would make sense for them to provide it when you first start, but long term, I, I would suggest to anyone listening now that is wherever they're on this path, start looking at how you're going to get pupils in. So if, for every reason, you decide to leave

1:56:38your franchise, or go independent, or whatever that might be, you are in a position to get your most important thing, which is customers, that's that you cannot earn a living as a driving instructor without customers, so you need to know how to get that in, but that may be a little podcast for another day. Is there anything else you two would like to touch on that regard, this entire subject or today? I think the only thing I would touch on is just what you've said there about, you know, a franchise isn't just about, if you're going to be looking for a franchise, you want to look at what that franchise is offering outside of this pupil quota, you know, they may help, they may advertise for you, you know, they may have a bigger presence on social media or whatever that might help you to capture customers and things like that, but it's not their job to do that. But look at what the franchise is offering you. When you make that decision, you know, is there a regular CPD continuous professional development? Is there any of that going on for the team? Is the

1:57:43team gathering? Is the social, is there a social element to it? You know, it's a lonely job. Or it can be if we make it that way, you know, so what is that team offering you? What support are you getting? You know, whether it's a wider network from that franchise that pass down messages from associations maybe or, you know, things like that. And, you know, look at that wider scope, don't make it based on financial and pupil commitment alone because there's much more to a lot of franchises, some franchises. If you want that team element, I know I can think of a few of our team members who are there because they want to be part of a team. And that's no sole reason for being in a franchise. It's got nothing to do with any other aspect. They're just like being part of a team because they don't want to work alone. You know, so I think that would be my last point is, is

1:58:44find out what the franchises offer in you because it's potentially a lot more than just the pupils. I've ever mentioned associations there. There's something that we kind of mentioned before we started recording was the idea of joining association. Obviously, Charlie and I would put the ADI and GSC at the top and that others are available. But what would be the benefit, apparently, so what would be the benefits of someone joining an association at PDI specifically? And yeah, why should they? Well, like Emma said, it can sometimes be a lonely job and to have an association there. And I would say this for the three main associations because we, you're me Terry, we work with the ADI and GSC, we're on the governing committee, but I work alongside the DIA and the MSA. And I'm confident that they like us have knowledgeable people within those, those companies

1:59:50within those, those parts of the industry. So if you do have queries about your trainer, if you do have queries or questions about the process you're going through, to have somebody there in your corner that you can ring up and say, actually, I need some impartial advice. What should I be doing here is this correct? I don't know what I don't know. And to have that opportunity, I think, is really good. But alongside that is you, you get the opportunity to see other training opportunities. And you know, with the ADI and GSC, we offer, we offer online training, we offer in person training as well. So you can come and see outside of what your trainer tells you. And that might just confirm that actually your trainer is, is giving you some really good information. You may disagree with what's been said and that's absolutely fine. So it's having that community there,

2:00:53it's having that backing there. And I don't want this to sound as a negative thing, but like with all kind of insurance, if you do have a complaint made against you, that can be a very scary thing for an ADI let loan for a PDI to have that official letter to come through inviting you to go for an interview, a formal interview at your local test centre, because a complaint has been made. Having the opportunity to chat to somebody who deals with this on a daily basis and giving you quality advice, that is just invaluable. Because generally, if you want to go to a solicitor to go into that, you can add thousands of pounds on top of that advice. So these are the benefits that I think just every trainee should be looking at. Even when they first start, but especially before they start teaching, is are you a member of a local, of a national association? And I'm fact,

2:01:56are you a member of a local association? Because that's another great way of getting to know other instructors and being more of a community. About 15 months, I think as well, right? Yeah, correct, for the ADI and JC, or if you're a member of a local association, who is a group with the ADI and JC, you will normally get that half price. Well, I refer to this as the ultimate PDI podcast, but we cannot possibly cover every conceivable question that people may have. So if they've got any further questions or concerns, you can rock to me, Facebook and your final links in the show. And also you can also reach out to my guests. First of all, Mr Tom Stenson, Dr. Tickham, I want to tell people where they can find you. You can find me at the ADI and JC. You can also find me at Bright Coaching or at my driving school, which is drive up training. And you can also reach out to Emma, pottington, working people find you.

2:02:57And the usual soul media platforms, other than that, you'll find up driver training. And the, I just want to mention the group that we've got. I think we're getting a lot of PDIs at the moment seeking a pot emotionally because it's quite stressful. So you'll find my group, Facebook called L-plates and Headspace. And that's there for the emotional and well-being support of well trained for for ADIs as well. Well, big thank you to you guys for joining me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having us. Yes, thanks for having us. The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook. Talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changes about what drives them.