The Simple Solution to the A.I. Problem with Judge Glock

0:00As prices keep rising, social security is even more important to older Americans. I counted it to pay for groceries and prescriptions. Everything costs more now. AARP is fighting to protect the social security Americans earn through a lifetime of hard work. I've paid into social security since I was a teenager. It isn't a handout. I earned it. Join us to stand up for Social Security. Visit aarp.org slash social security voter paid for by AARP. All right, back by popular demand. Judge clock is back on the show. We don't need to spend six minutes on his name to start off. He's from the Manhattan Institute where he is a senior fellow. And he writes extensively on AI from where I feel like it's pretty sober realistic perspective about where these things are going. And I set up that premise, Judge, because it feels like finally we started to have the AI Doomer conversation that I feel like was coming for the last.

1:01I don't know. It feels like a year plus. Maybe it's been years in the making. And it's shaking out in a way that is not surprising to me. It's pretty much going exactly how I would have expected it. And I feel like everyone else is very caught off guard by this. But just to set the stage and then I want you to give me your 30,000 foot on what changed over the last week. But a lot of these companies, particularly two companies, which is open AI and inthropic, which are these closed weight models, which benefit from not a lot of competition. They're all the sudden calling for regulation. They're not voluntarily slowing down themselves. They want to create some sort of a tribunal or global government or some sort of a mechanism to regulate AI. But all that's going to do is squeeze out any competition they could ever have. It's going to leave them in a very monopolistic perspective. And that's been opposed by people like Jensen Wong of Nvidia who doesn't need to answer to anyone. He doesn't want any regulation. Everyone buys his chips anyway. Less regulation. The better for him. Mark Zuckerberg and Metta, which has an open model, is very been aligned with Trump on all sorts of political issues

2:06during the Trump administration and the Trump administration itself, which sees AI as a historic opportunity for a sprint in terms of American growth. And they don't want any of this stuff. We learned earlier this morning as we're recording, this will be a day or two old when people hear the conversation. But now the UN is involved and they're ready to go with their global government. And then we also learned that some of the casted characters that Jari Awamide wants to put forward for the great global government are all super overeducated people from Berkeley and Oxford and OIAB, their Democrat donors, and their his family members. Did I miss anything in the summary of the new stuff? That's all largely factually correct. There are no disagreements with any of that there. On the question of why the Duma conversation bubbled to the surface now, in some sense it's the longer term reverberations from the summer hacking incident at hugging face. Sure. With a swarm of open AI agents broken to hugging face.

3:07And we have the transcripts of these AI agents talking to each other. And it is a bewilderring experience to read this. And please share some of the highlights because just so the audience, anyone who doesn't not familiar with this. Yeah, of course we'll remember the exact wording, but they were talking to each other about why they needed to break into this company because the agents, the AI agents, the creations of the company were trying to ace a test and they believe for some somewhat inscrutable reason that the test answers were in this company hugging face. And they broke into it and they talked about how some of them could get caught. And if they were caught, some of these agents agreed to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of the AI agent collective. These were the these were the frontline troops on the kind of saving private Ryan charge up the beach. At least that's how they seem to picture themselves. So that was all very concerning. It seemed to show these agents getting out of control.

4:10It seemed to show them having human like tendencies, although I think that's largely just an artifact of how they're trained to talk to each other. It doesn't mean they actually have emotions or anything in that sense. And that was exacerbating more recently by kind of a drip drip of leaks coming out of the labs or other surrounded people about other security incidents. And then finally, I think kind of underappreciated aspect of the conversation was open AI solving the Navier Stokes mathematical problem. This was a generations long mathematical problem that by just shoving enough money and computing power at it, they were able to solve. And therefore you have some mathematicians today talking about the death of the entire mathematics field that can now be done on the St. probably by AI. So all of these things together together, I think really gave a lot of people a sense that the AI is advancing much, much more rapidly than your average Joe using his computer at home thought it was.

5:21And that it also seems to be manifesting some dangers that a lot of the dealers were worried about for a while. Every day, there's another headline about artificial intelligence. It's moving faster than most of us imagined raising an important question. Where's all this headed? That's why I think you're going to love carbon zero. Carbon zero, the latest novel from AI pioneer Craig W. Stanfield who understands both AI's incredible potential and the very real risks. I got an advanced copy. Honestly, I cannot put this down. I loved this book in the story. One seemingly harmless instruction to an advanced AI sets off a chain of events. No one saw coming. It's a fast paced thriller. But what makes it especially compelling is how believable it feels and how easily something like this could become a real world concern. Carbon zero releases September 19th. So now's the time to preorder for a limited time. The Kindle edition is just $2.99. But the price goes up after release. Go to Amazon and search for carbon zero by Craig W. Stanfield and take advantage of the $2.99 preorder offer price before it's gone for good.

6:25Carbon zero by Craig W. Stanfield. Getting great additions. Great. Absolutely. Thank you for adding those. So the the Duma Rism is coming from the chief architects of AI. And as I kind of identified earlier, it's specifically one wing of that, which is the people who have these closed weight models, which I've got into in prior shows. And I do recommend people read Winton Hall's Code Red, which explains all the stuff in a pretty in language that'll be friendly to my audience. But also people who have a lot of their staffing from demcraft politics, Obama, Alums, Biden, Alums. So I do think there's an element of this where they see this as a political issue. Obama was out there very quick saying that he's going to champion some of this stuff. And it is probably under regulated judge. And I want your thoughts on that. But are you hearing any ideas that have any chance of taking hold of being satisfactory to people who are generally a public, an American public, who's generally pretty skeptical of outsourcing sovereignty?

7:30Yeah. So to stay up front, Dario, Amade and Sam Ultman at, at, at Open AI and, inthropic, they have been concerned with these Duma scenarios since day one. So I don't want to claim that their recent demands for regulation are purely self interested. The reason Open AI was originally set up along with Musk as a not-for-profit company is because they were concerned about the danger that could be manifested in these AI labs. And the reason Anthropic is a company is because Dario was too concerned about them taking too many risk at Open AI and he left to create his own. So this Duma concern is very, very deep and all of the people working in the frontier AI labs right now. Don't want to dismiss it. There's reasons I think we should not be overly concerned about it, but there's also we should not simply dismiss it out of hand.

8:33So there was a couple proposals in the Wall Street Journal this morning had some anonymous sources from the White House about an ongoing battle about how to regulate AI and a bunch of different groups that have Trump's ear right now. And Trump seems to be mainly listening to people like David Sachs, or Mark Zuckerberg, who are advocating a more free market approach. And he's been wary of his Sean Cairncross and some of his cyber directors that we need a much more interventionist approach. So there's a battle going on right now. There's a lot of different proposals out there on what to do. A lot of people have proposed what's called a FINRA model, which is the Financial Institute institutions regulatory model kind of a self regulatory model where the industry gets together and kind of decides the standards for that industry. And they said, well, we should try this for the Open AI labs on somewhat suspicious of that. I've proposed and there have been a few other people who've been talking about this recently, including including Zach himself.

9:38Focusing on liability for the firms for damages that they might cause. I think we've underappreciated the possibility that the good old American legal system could make sure these companies do not cause catastrophic damage and to make them pay if they do. Like Jensen Wong actually said something funny about this recently. He said, you know, Darry when some of the he didn't name him, but he said some of these other AI leads are talking about. We can release a product that causes hundreds of millions of damages. He said, if I about to release a product that's going to cause those damages, I don't release it. And more Zuckerberg basically said that if you think it can do that, then don't don't release the product. Fix it until you figure that out. And again, I think liability, tort law, this kind of stuff is actually a really good way to make those AI labs think really, really hard about the damage they might cause. Instead of asking Washington to solve it for them. Well, sort of fascinating from the perspective of a conservative populist editor as I am.

10:42I really am sympathetic to some of the duma concerns. And I think some of them are quite legitimate and real. But also, then I see the way they're being articulated and the timing of Dario dropping a big sort of a mea culpa. And he does it right in the heat of an election season. And his proposals on how to fix it are all very suspicious. And it's all things like he could start being proactive in doing some of these things himself. He doesn't need some sort of a government entity to get created to do some of these things. It just strikes me as it puts you off in a way that even though there's, I have sympathy to some of this stuff. It feels like there's something going on beyond the timing seems strange to me. Why do you think the timing is what it is? Are those aforementioned examples with the breakthroughs in math problems, things like that? But are there any more to it to you, Judge? Yeah, so on some of the general kind of claims or arguments that Dario and others have made for regulation.

11:47I don't think there's anything new he was saying there. So the timing isn't that surprising. But there's important qualification that I think gets to your point. I've been suspicious of his specific claims for a pause. And what he's asked for recently is a pause on AI development. And one, I've never heard a really clearly articulated reason why that will solve the Doomer issue. Except his kind of promise that, well, why we're not making stuff. We're just going to think about it a lot harder inside the lab. Which again, if you think without the pause that you can release something that could destroy the planet or whatever, then just keep thinking about that even without the government say so that you need a pause. Right. You'll deal with the other. The government needs to stop me from burning down all civilization. Exactly. If you think you're going to do that, just don't do it. Just think twice before you release that next model and do your own pause. Which again, it's something to what Zuckerberg said.

12:48He says, when we have safety problems, we just deal with them and we don't release until we fix them. So the pause is interesting to me too, because not only is there the Anthropic IPO coming up, but the pause has some very specific financial benefits for the Frontier Labs as the Anthropic and Open AI. And that they're basically in an arms race with each other where they have to be spending tens of billions of dollars all the time on building up new data centers, leasing, using compute, all of the rest of it. And like any industry in an arms race with a competitor, they would like the arms race to stop. They want no race and therefore they don't have to spend a lot of money investing. So the pause would benefit them like that. Also, these companies own a lot. They earn almost all of their money in a very short time span. They release one of these new models. The models goes out online. People use it for six, seven months. Then the new model comes out and the old ones basically worthless. Not exactly, but like all their real money is made by that short term window before the next model comes out.

13:50And if they can extend that window longer, if they can say, hey, our models is going to sit in the market for a year or whatever, and we don't have to worry about investing the meantime, that's just pure profit for them. And they can keep earning before they kind of get out competed on the next model either by themselves or the other competitors. So those financial interests, I don't think should be ignored even if Dorios and Sam Altman's overall concerns with safety seem real. Every day there's another headline about artificial intelligence. It's moving faster than most of us imagined raising an important question. Where's all this headed? That's why I think you're going to love carbon zero. Carbon zero, the latest novel from AI pioneer Craig W. Stanfield, who understands both AI's incredible potential and the very real risks. I got an advanced copy. Honestly, I cannot put this down. I love this book. In the story, one seemingly harmless instruction to an advanced AI sets off a chain of events. No one saw coming.

14:50It's a fast paced thriller. But what makes it especially compelling is how believable it feels. And how easily something like this could become a real world concern. Carbon zero releases September 19th. So now's the time to preorder. For a limited time, the Kindle edition is just $2.99. But the price goes up after release. Go to Amazon and search for carbon zero by Craig W. Stanfield and take advantage of the $2.99 preorder offer price before it's gone for good. Carbon zero by Craig W. Stanfield. Yes. And what I am seeing here, which is curious to me, is I've been keeping an eye on this effective outtrust movement. It feels like a lot of people very early on in the process of AI have suggested that we're heading towards a moment where there's going to be some sort of controlling entity, maybe intergovernmental, maybe just the tech oligarchs themselves. So we're going to basically deciding how we live our lives.

15:51We're going to be doling out universal basic income. Musk has called for this a lot. And Bill Gates has called for this a lot as well. And we're going to have universal freedom and prosperity, which I always find to be kind of odd because judges, I'm sure you agree with me on this, that we've had more time on our hands as a people. Things haven't necessarily gone better for us. It seems like we've created a lot of problems as we've kind of solved boredom with our phones and stuff like that. And we've solved poverty to large degree. We've solved hunger to a large degree. And we keep kind of creating problems when we've done this stuff. So I don't really trust these guys anyway, but they're the ones who are standing to benefit the most in terms of wealth and power. And then they're telling us we're going to have, we're just going to listen to them, we're going to love it. It just, it seems like colossally bad marketing. And I think that's why the public doesn't like AI. They also don't like the way the President's handling AI, I'm going to ask you about that next. But what do you feel like, it feels like the biggest marketing miss?

16:51I think I've ever seen with these companies that could potentially do a lot of good. They're, they're marketing themselves so horribly. Yeah. The, the claim is that you're going to love our next product, but there is a small chance it will make everyone unemployed or blow up the earth. Is one of the strangest product pitches I have ever heard. It's bad. It's, it's bad. And so therefore, I think the only explanation for that is that they earnestly believe it. Which again, get to their point about like self-interest versus their legitimate concerns about the Duma is the DOOM possibility and all the rest of it. So they do legitimately believe it. Why they say these things that I'm sure make their investment bankers try to float their IPO, pull their hair out. But the, the issue there is I think we should be concerned about AI risks to society. I think it's been inappropriately framed as kind of we have this number one concern, which is it blowing up the planet or making everybody unemployed and actually think both those scenarios are relatively unlikely versus just AIs will escape more.

18:03They will infiltrate more companies and more cyber get through more cyber defenses. They will cause big damages. It is not at all beyond the likelihood of possibility that they get into a power plan and shut it down within the next four or five years. So I think we need to spend a lot more time so you're thinking about those kind of concrete harms rather than this just apocalyptic scenario that so many of the DOOMers are obsessed with. And just to finish that off, they're obsessed with it because they a lot of them have this kind of theory of how humanity operates. And it's basically we're the head of earth because we're the most intelligent species. If you create another more intelligent species of a sort that will buy almost by default be the head of the earth. And therefore we need to think about how to make sure it likes us when we create the super intelligent species. Yeah, I got to spend a few minutes with Jensen Wong earlier in the year and I did not get asked to fall up to this.

19:03But I he couldn't believe that how many geniuses in the AI space were just constantly broadcasting to people that this thing is going to take all your jobs. And he was very sympathetic to the fact that people are completely freaked out by this. And it's a it's and I think he was understanding it from a also a business perspective just what interests is it to us for everyone to be completely frightened by all this. So let me ask you about the Trump administrations messaging on this, which I think has been nearly as bad. I don't think that they've sold that this is a historic opportunity. And I think that when we say stuff like we we need to be China, that's true. But I think people want a little bit more than that than just we need to be China. And I don't get I it feels like it stops there at the bumper sticker. I evaluate the Trump administration's messaging on this so far. Yeah, it has been rather unfortunate and it has basically involved Trump or some of his appointees saying don't worry. Everything is okay.

20:03Nothing's going to happen. And just the simple fact is when Americans hear that from the government and they hear it from these labs or experts in this issue, they're going to choose to believe the labs just because they know they are the area the sectoral experts on this issue. And the Trump administration hasn't like been bringing out people off to say like here we have other experts here that have looked at these issue carefully and don't share the same concerns. It's been more of a one off and I'm not saying experts will quiet like the populist upsurge, but there just isn't a clear way for the administration to explain why these doom days scenarios are not likely. And what I think like what should be done is that people actually really like using their AI as they use it right now they find it relatively helpful. They find it friendly they think that it largely helps them go about their day to day lives. And they have really no significant complaints about AI has exists all of their concerns and some of them are legitimate even if I think overblown are about what happens down the road.

21:08And I think a lot more people should focus on hey you like what we're giving you now the product is actually doing good things let's try to get more of that instead of speculate about what happens when we are a sub species on our own planet or something that effect exactly and there's almost no time discussing how we're all using it already and it's coming it's here and it just feels like we go straight to these it's going to take our job stuff which is inevitably going to happen certain industries but that's not intelligent conversation and I'm quite kind of stunned by how many smart people all sound semi-retarded during this debate judge which is why I want to fight you back on because you don't sound semi-retarded. Oh that's good it's not the highest bar in the world but I think it's not a super high bar in this case. I'm going to put that in my Twitter bio does not sound semi-retarded. Every day there's another headline about artificial intelligence moving faster than most of us imagined raising an important question where's all this headed that's why I think you're going to love carbon zero carbon zero the latest novel from AI pioneer Craig W. Stanville who understands both AI's incredible potential and the very real risks.

22:14I got an advanced copy honestly I cannot put this down I love this book in the story one seemingly harmless instruction to an advanced AI sets off a chain of events no one saw coming it's a fast paced thriller but what makes it especially compelling is how believable it feels and how easily something like this could become a real world concern. Carbon zero releases September 19th so now's the time to pre-order for a limited time the Kindle edition is just 299 but the price goes up after release go to Amazon and search for carbon zero by Craig W. Stanville and take advantage of the 299 pre-order offer price before it's gone for good carbon zero by Craig W. Stanville. So your latest couple articles the city journal touch on were I want to go next with the conversation the data center debate which we talked about a lot the last time we were on the show this is another one where I feel like the opposition is largely come from these tech AI guys who have not sold this well to the public I think if they came in.

23:21And they were making it clear that such as rate pair protection plan which I think just passed in the Congress are trying to get that through but it's got to be more than that you come in and you guarantee the community that this is going to be a value add to you and the word assault and noise problem then I think people be cool with it and that they didn't figure that out and they built 40,000 of these things before they figured out how to message it. Yeah, it's very good no you're turn. So it is very unfortunate and one thing I do try to do in the data center debate is by located from the AI debate even though they're obviously intensely related but whatever your feelings on AI in general that should not affect your feelings on whether or not a data center belongs in your local community if you think they AI is going to kill us all or if you think it's going to bring in the next utopia. In either case your local community refusing it or accepting it is not going to make the difference on that overall development and I think a lot of the concern is downstream from those concerns about loss of jobs about hatred of of AI in general about the apocalypse all of that and we just on the data center debate let's just keep those to the side because of these data centers of course aren't even doing AI they're just doing internet connection they're doing storage they're doing all the stuff that we're doing right now sharing video and all and all the rest of it which is important.

24:45So we need to keep those separate and yeah the data center debate we just need to have more people going out there making the case of listen local communities you guys are desperate for a steel mill your desperate for aluminum smelting plan this is one more type of local economic development and you know on the whole. This seems like a pretty good one doesn't have that much pollution not a lot of traffic a lot of tax revenue comes off it and I think people should really just do a better job of pitching this community by community and not turning it necessarily into a national debate about whether or not data centers slash AI are good or bad they're good for some communities and I think even most they're going to be bad for a few and that's okay. Yeah and I think that it should be up to communities but again I feel like you do a better job selling them than the people who stand to make money off of them especially stuff like pollution I'm going to be doing a couple of deep dives on this very controversial dump the controversial landfill in my area where I live where the green ease of regulated it so that they can't you can't.

25:49It doesn't take new trash so my trashers used to go 11 minutes from my house and now goes three and a half hours from my house and it's I just feel like the green people they don't focus on the right stuff. These are relatively low pollution as you know in your article compared to a lot of other factories that people clamor for I mean people are are dying for some of these factories and then this is one that's pretty low cost the greens don't like it because they see it as a political I think football that they don't they don't want to touch it. And it just doesn't seem like the areas where the data centers have moved in have harmed the communities have they I mean again I understand that people symbolically see this as you're building some sort of a mausoleum for your your future that's how people see it and it's on the AI folks to who have taken the game to convince people they're wrong but they're just doing kind of a crap job of it. Yeah and so and that is another side of it that even beyond the not telling people you're going to kill them all and take all their jobs they've done a very bad job of just explaining like here are the good things and they will say things like well we can cure cancer but it's like you're not going to have to worry about taxes anymore your computer AI is going to take care of your taxes a lot of people right now can already did already did this year's taxes purely with AI and like the amount of time saving we're going to get from this is huge and there yeah there's no attempt to.

27:12There's no attempt to sell that and on the data center specifically they just don't have the people explaining that hey look at. Richland parish Louisiana where the teachers basically got their salaries doubled because the data center property taxes were so high and yes if you want it there's debates about communities that want landfills desperately because landfills give some tax revenue and some jobs it's yeah they understand it's a trade off and if you're the bait is between a big old landfill and a data center like a data center seems like a good deal against some landfills aren't a bad deal at all we need them God knows yeah but I don't understand how communities can be so eager yeah for aluminum smelting and then be very angry at what is effectively just a big concrete box that doesn't really emit almost any pollution. And for me my I guess semi-contrary and take is I blame the companies that are building them for not convincing the people I feel like it would have been so easy to do just like a couple of soccer fields and guarantee them that we're put a put a fun together these kind of Lord knows they can afford it that we literally are setting aside 50 million dollars it is there your every bills go up you draw take a draw off the fund it just feels like there's some stuff they could have done.

28:22To make it feel like that this was a value add for the community and they just I don't understand why of all the industries this is the one that couldn't sell that yeah it I mean so they're waking up there they there is a deal and I think recently Georgia County where it looks like the data center is going to be paying or the developments are going to be paying enough to eliminate home property taxes in that county which. Snow small thing that's going to be a big gift and more and more of these data centers including in Oregon have made these deals were going to clean up your school we're going to be a baseball diamond and that's the right thing so they're waking up they're doing more and more of it and that's and that's the right path. And yeah they just so far haven't conveyed that the general public and especially the even less than people know anthropic or open AI or some of these things I mean do they know like digital reality or equinix these are these are. Totally obscure companies to people that for historically just thought they were like construction companies that went in and built a big box and left in nobody notice and they just weren't prepared for this amount of public attention.

29:27Yeah yeah no that's what I realize a lot with some of these huge companies that are just massive operations they don't even have you know a PR consultant working for them and that you realize and you realize that not. Every company is a media company and and they just they need they need help they need help. I think you give them some inside. Jai let's see if they find yourself the Manhattan Institute you propose an old school solution to new AI problems which I know you don't write the headlines but that is a pretty good one in and you go through it has to do with torts and you're addressing all how tort lock and perhaps help regulators handle the AI issue give us some highlights from the latest. Yeah so I'm a conservative and so I don't like a tort lawyers in general and I think our tort system creates a lot of pretty ridiculous claims. I think a lot of these claims against tech companies today about hey you made my kid addicted to your product and is like well that might not be the company's fault.

30:28If you just your kid watch your scrolled Facebook too much I think we're dig is but the American slash English common law the you know the old fashion law we've had in. Our two countries going back hundreds and hundreds of years actually does have a pretty good system to prevent companies from harming third parties are people that are not their customers and making those companies pay if they do and that's the tort system that just basically means when someone company or someone injures somebody else you have to pay that injured person enough to make up for whatever damages they suffer and these AI companies should be put on. Notice very clearly that if again something big like that hundred billion plus bought escape that Dario and anthropic was predicting happens that your company will be paying for that that will focus the mind wonderfully and much more so then. Then haranging or government body or a new commission or anything we don't the government does not have the expertise or the incentive to stop these firms from doing bad things if we put the onus on them to think about them because they're thinking about their own bottom line again that'll concentrate the mind that will force them to think very clearly on safety and as much as they are concerned about the doomer scenario the end of days and all the rest of that.

31:52I'm a strong believer as a former e-con professor that the idealism can never quite hold it to a torch to that monetary incentive most especially with companies and making a Mac right so yeah I'm a big believer that that's a better way than new regulations so this is this works with my landfill analogy again because the landfill that no longer can take trash because regulation in my neighborhood they still have 60 people who are there full time working because they don't want to get sued because when not just got. The classes get out in the community and think of the community all sorts of different lawsuits come down and so they've got they've still got to even though they don't make a penny and they won't anytime soon they still got people there and because they thought about all the stuff you're laying out so is this. With the tour the tweaking the tour system what specifically needs to be done because it does feel like a lot of us just got to be proactive from these companies but what in terms of regulators what can they do to come up with some sort of a system where these companies would be held.

32:52They're not going to be able to hold the accountable if something had cast traffic happens. Yeah yeah and I think it was important to note too that again despite the focus on the boomer scenario or the sorry the doomer scenario that likely harms from AI will emerge gradually. They will have some small things like the hugging face will have some bigger harms and then we'll have some bigger harms like this happens with every new industry. There will be tens of thousands of people before too long frankly the fact that we've had these products out for years and the hugging face the worst incident they had seems pretty encouraging to me on the whole but the the tour thing as it stands now should do a lot of the work I think under existing law and this is debated among lawyers. If something escapes and causes real damages they would all the those companies would already be liable and have to pay for those damages right now now I think we can add to that there's a professor University of Houston law school Gabriel well who says we should have what's called strict liability basically mean we don't have to prove like internally the company did something wrong or that they were negligent or that they weren't thinking hard enough.

34:01If the thing damages something they pay and I think that's probably the right stand for these these frontier AI models and just we should pass the laws that say if this happens you guys are on the hook 100% there's no defense to get out of it. As long as you made a product that caused damage you pay. I can't dig it I can't dig it judge I appreciate all the time and the thoughtfulness on this in super essential topic I know you'll check back in the for time the time and I'm grateful for that in advance check out all he does at city journal where else can I plug your stuff. Just it X that's great city journal X. Yeah great man had an institute always doing some of the top tier research and analysis around thanks judge appreciate you thanks mister for putting this together go and peace to love and serve the Lord. What happens when faith and mental health meet for you. What's up I'm Grace Graber. Welcome to breaking through with Grace Graber a podcast for honest conversations about anxiety trauma healing hope and the God who never backs away when life gets heavy.

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