The Only True Compassion (w/ Tim Cliss)

0:00One, two, three. Skim it, vacation. Yeah! Pink Panther has here coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together and they won't use to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the tabby tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products, and discover custom playlists on Spotify, but just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with coach. Learn more at coach.com Parenting unlocks some pretty impressive skills, like carrying grocery bags, a soccer ball, and a sleepy kid all at once. Good thing the newly designed Chris' or Pacifica has a few tricks of its own, hands-free power sliding doors and lift gate, rear seat entertainment, and still-en-go seating and storage that adapts faster than your family's weekend plans.

1:05Visit Chrysler.com to learn more. Chrysler is a registered trademark of FCAUS LLC. Hey everyone, it's Zubin. Hey, today I'm talking to Tim Kliss. This is a great, so ridiculous conversation. Tim Kliss is a speaker on non-duality, which it's impossible to speak about. Yet somehow he conveys this in a way that's actually freaking hilarious. Unlike the heaviness in this kind of space, he's really, really funny. I was really looking forward to this after I was introduced to him. He has several books. His website is TimKlissThis.com. The reason I'm putting a little intro in here is that the first three minutes or so of this video, you're just going to see Tim, but you'll hear my voice because for some reason it's complicated. I forgot to hit record on my end of the video, but the recording from Zoom caught the audio. Then you'll see me again, but it's probably better just to look at Tim because he's way more handsome than me. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Tim Kliss.

2:05It's quite interesting to me how you found your own, or how it found you, and then you sort of fell into it. Yeah, well here, okay, since I hit record, I'll just say, hey everyone, Tim Kliss. The funny thing is, now who's interviewing you? It doesn't matter. There's no interview. This is a conversation. I don't know what's talking to what. You just asked me, how did I fall into the hole? We use this catchphrase non-duality. Yeah. It's not so different than I think the story I've heard you tell. It is just a story, but it's like, Zubin had always been a seeker in some way. Not necessarily any spiritual stuff. It was always like, how do I make this discomfort of being a human stop, this unknowing? I don't know what's going on, and yet everyone seems to know what's going on.

3:05There's something broken here. Go become a doctor, do what your parents want. Be a successful doctor, burn out doing that. Then go on a hunt to make medicine better, like that's possible, and do all of this. Somewhere along the way, I think, like you've spoken of, there was just this event that wasn't an event where there was a clear seeing of what the fuck. There's nothing happening. None of this is actually happening. There's no Zubin here doing any of this. There's just this. That glimpse was a flicker outside of any sense of time. And then ever since then, the seeking, the real seeking began of spiritual seeking. How do I get that back? How do I stabilize that? How do I become worthy of that? How do I clear out all my conditioning and do all my shadow work and all the nonsense? Yeah. And then in just in the last few years, life just disabused me of the whole fucking thing. Spirituality, it's on tail.

4:06The whole thing was seen as just another hierarchical nonsense construct. And I realize I can't know anything because I'm just the same appearance that is unknowable. And there's nothing going on. And then there's just the freedom of what is. And then the fundamental disappointment, Tim, of this is so just dog shit ordinary. Where's all my, where's all the spiritual joy and clarity and transcendence? It's like, no, it's just this. It's this this air pod thing in this water. Yeah. The incredible beauty of the ordinary. Beyond beauty. That's it really. Yeah. Beyond beauty. How could, how people talk about meaning, right? Well, how can you live without meaning and purpose direction, evolution, progress, time, space? And it's like, where's the need for that? Look, it just look. What is this? There is just wonder when there is no need for that. So there is no need for time.

5:08There is no, there is no need for becoming. That's the most incredible thing for me because my life was all about my becoming. What, what am I going to become? How, how can I become what I need to become? With no, I mean, I had no idea why I wanted to become or could become. It was full bullshit, the whole story. The whole future of where I could, where I could end up, you know, which would be the perfection of me. In some kind of. Well, a wholeness that I'd never, I never felt as me because there's this sense of, I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. And the becoming would at one point. And I would know when it was, then I would know that I've reached whatever I'm striving to reach. And I'd become good enough. Yeah. This whole sense of, oh God. But of course in all the, all the trying, all it did was it just amplified and it just confirmed the sense of not enough.

6:19Every attempt to be good enough, all it ever did was just confirm not yet, not good enough. Yeah, keep trying, keep trying. Not enough. And yeah, and the, I speak about this. I mean, I don't, I don't feel like teach anything. But there's a great real compassion for all the, you know, all the human beings who really suffer at the hands of their illusory self by, they're by their own hands, virtually all suffering exists. And so it feels, it feels very compassionate and loving to speak about this. It even though, eventually anyone who hears it can't hear that. That's the issue because it's coming from a place of love.

7:19It's the whole, the whole sense of speaking about this comes from compassion and love. And yet that can hardly ever be heard by whoever is it. Because it sounds negative, it sounds nihilistic, sounds hopeless, sounds dreadful, you know, the, is the antithesis of everything that self lives by, which is hope and meaning and purpose. The, the first time I heard Tony Parsons say this message is the only compassion. Me too. That's my favorite phrase. I burst into tears because I was like, of course, because everything you just said, that's how it was here. The zoo been trying to become okay was a life's work that never ended and never could end because its whole nature was the becoming. It's the process. And when that collapsed, it wasn't that that could even choose to have it collapse because the very,

8:20the very act of choosing it is another becoming it's like, okay, I'm going to surrender now. I'm going to give up. I'm going to be, you know, and it can't be, I can be very, I can be very mocking of all notions of an acceptance. Because I mean, there's nothing self loves more than that humble, that humility shit. Me, self loves that. Oh, it does. I am, I'm the humblest mother fucker. Yeah. I'll eat that out all day long. Just serving up humble pie, man, I'm just simply the humblest. Oh, man. Yeah. And there's no, so that yeah, you can't turn, there's no way to turn for self in order to try and become a no self. And that can be the most frustrating, the most incredibly frustrating place for self to be in. Yeah. For a lot of you, for a number of years, it was incredibly frustrating for me.

9:24You and I share this, I think, from what little I've seen online. It's, it's what I love about this, Tim, is like, we're literally getting to know each other. We've just talked for the first time right now. And we've probably seen very little of each other stuff. And I think this is hilarious because the, it's like, oh, yeah, it's the same. For, for, for 10 years after that glimpse, I'm like, desperately seeking no, Zubin, like, no self. And the first time I heard the very direct message, it resonated at some level. I couldn't understand. I was like, of course, that's true. Wait, why is that true? And then the quest to understand through the mind, why this is true? And how do I get it for me, which is the irony? Because the me can't have it. And it's not something to have. I don't know how it was to you, but was there, was there quite a period of time as well when you were still seeking it? But you absolutely knew the futility.

10:25Yeah. And the joke of it. But it's still, but the energy of the sense of me is so desperate for relief. And for some peace and rest. I mean, self really, self really does want to die. But is terrified of, and by die, I mean, not be. That's, you know, I don't want to be me. I'm a fucking pain in the ass. I cause, if not all the suffering, the vast majority of what I call suffering in my life is due to me and the demands I make on myself. That's really, so you go, it's seeking the end. And then it became clear that, of course, I'm pretending that I'll be there to see the absence of me when I'm gone. That's the only way me will accept it. Yeah. And it could be like that because it's the only way it could be.

11:27And then of course, I tell people when they talk to me about, well, of course you know this no self. And I go, no, there's no knowing of no self at all. So, so this is something I want to say real quick, the paradox of this, people are like, so you've attained a no self state. So as someone with no self, what would you think about this? And you just kind of go, and at first there's confusion here because it's like, wait, because that little echo of unworthiness of that self echo says, maybe there is still self here because I don't know what they're talking about. Well, and people tell me that. And of course they tell me, because I say, I know I'm not aware of that. You're aware that there's only awareness and you are, you know, awareness is aware of being aware. And I go, fuck off. No, don't be ridiculous. I don't even know what you, I don't know what an earth you mean. I said, no, there's just the, there's just not the constant sense of self consciousness about I am aware of myself.

12:31There is no self awareness. There is no self. There isn't anything in my place. It's just this space. So what, so what am I replaced with? I'm not replaced with anything because I never was. So there wasn't, so it, in a, in a very real way, there's nothing changes at all. This is the great cosmic joke at the end of this apparent journey. It's like, oh, nothing's different. And yet, and yet, it's like, my wife and I were laying in bed yesterday thinking, well, so what has changed in the last five years? Because she's had a similar unraveling apparent, you know, again, we're using words. And we're just kind of scratching our heads going, I have no idea what you're talking about. Like I don't even know what to say. It's this, there's no problem at all, even when there's problems, it is what it is. And that's it. And it's not, and there's no one here to celebrate it. There's no one here to even remember because all memory, everything is here.

13:32It's all the past future, all of it. This. Like, so it's just, and so how do you even talk about it? I know. I do like the empty price. So you've been, you've been waiting for this site. You wait at 10 years. And then, and then of course, the price is that it doesn't arrive. And of course, why wouldn't, why wouldn't you, you may thrive as well. I did say you're probably laughing. Because it's not, you thought there was something else. That's a whole, the whole story is really just this for me that I self lives in a, something else. There must be other than devs. And then the only realization, and it is no realization is that, no, there is just this. And there is, there isn't another this. There, there isn't anywhere else.

14:33There isn't a behind. So all the notions you had of hierarchy of ascension or, you know, of, of working through, of high higher and lower states. There are states, yeah, that just come and go, just like the weather. So life is life feels like weather. No, very much so. And I mean, that's what, what, what, what we're going to do about the weather? Were you just going to put a raincoat out on and go out in the rain? It's, it's terribly simple. It's really dog shit ordinary simple. And it's so stupid simple. And a wonderful way though. Yeah. The thing is, there's the other thing called self, it longs to be special. Specialness is such a poor sense of me. I can't just be ordinary little me. I've got to be a, I've got to make something of myself.

15:34I mean, what a curse. What terrible thing we say to, or, basically, all kids get this all the time. Well, you don't you want to make something of yourself. And the poor little bastard self is going, what can't I just be myself then? No, no, you've got to make something of yourself. You know what Disney does? This is, I feel like Disney is part of this collective delusion. It tells the child, oh, no, no, no, you are special, but you haven't discovered your authentic self and lived it in the world. You're living someone else's story. So go on this hero's journey to improve yourself and discover who you are. Yeah, but I mean, Disney isn't, it Disney isn't alone of that. And I think all, all nearly all spiritual narratives. So that, you know, spiritual narratives go, oh, yeah, well, you've been a material seeker. You thought the house would bring you peace and happiness.

16:34You thought your marriage would, but now it's not working. And big no, because you need, you've been going outside. What you need to do now is go inside. And the truth will be inside. Well, here's the truth. There's no inside and there's no outside. But last, the truth, you just, that they're equally made up. It really, I mean, the whole thing is just a punchline, the whole thing. But you, but, but you know, again, to your point earlier, people going through this often, I mean, this is just a way of speaking there. It's filled with disappointment, grief, misery, because the one that wanted this is the one that's seen through and it can't have anything it wanted. No, not a thing. Yeah, no, absolutely nothing. There's nothing, there's nothing here for you. There's nothing in it for me.

17:34It's all delusion. Everything for me is delusion. Now, this isn't anything you say about this, you could say everything is, is all conceptual in that sense. You could say it's all illusory. But because me doesn't actually exist, the whole narrative of me and my progress, my becoming, my development, my, my failures and my successes, my story. It is, I mean, it is just a beautiful, beautifully tragic story. And the stories don't have to go. We wouldn't have anything without the stories. Bingo. Absolutely. The stories don't have to go. No, no, they, well, they can't, they can't go. They can't go. They can't go. We think we have this control to let the stories go to the same as saying I can surrender. The stories are arising. That's what's here. That's, that's why this isn't nihilism. Nihilism is another story we tell to negate the story. Absolutely. Yeah.

18:34That's really good. I totally agree with you on that. That's, there's no sense of nihilism. When stories are just seen as just stories, then my story is equal in its just a story as your story. Now, there, that has a real sense of why I might use the word phrase unconditional love. Everyone being just has their story. What is it? No, absolutely of no significance and meaning and purpose. And yet it is all the meaning and purpose that life could possibly have. It's everything. It goes back to specialness. It goes back to specialness. Specialness is the opposite of unconditional love, although it's not possible to have the opposite, because this is all unconditional love. So even the specialness, if that's arising, is that. But when we, when the specialness stops for here, it stops for there too.

19:39So nothing has us. Yeah. So the pope, whoever famous person could be sitting here and it makes no difference. Well, I still, I still, because I, because I do non-Joy talks and sooms and stuff. And I still get a lot of people from traditional advisor and from San. And they're still embroiled in this hero work. Oh, worship of the great masters of great work. And so, I'm joking. Yeah, special ones. You know, Ramana and this architect, so you know, and I, and of course, I don't, yeah, that beautiful, just as beautiful as you and, and her and that dog. Mm hmm. This pen. And it's the, it gives, of course, that's the equality is that there is no specialness. But then, of course, every, every human being and every being, all of being is equally special.

20:39That's right. There's no, there's really, there's no hierarchy at all. That's right. And there's no way that anything has to be. It's only what it is. That's it. And the pushing and pulling, that's a kind of a movement of this. Really, that's one thing I could say that's, I can't find that. It's more, oh, this fucking guy cut me off in traffic, transient energy arises, I call anger. There's a middle finger that's given. And then I continue to drive and then it's gone on the next thing. Instead of, God, I shouldn't have done that. I should, that fucking guy should not have done that to me. This is unjust. We're talking about justice here. And this is unjust. Well, the, the death of justice as a, as a truth. And then justice just being another idea, just a, and it's, it's a, it's a beautiful human idealization of how life could be.

21:39And then it's beautiful. You see it for what it is. It's not, there's no, there's no absolute truth in any of it. And then all of those ideas of morality and ethics and righteousness and justice. Like, kind of just sell into that place in the story. Yeah. And then it's easy. It's, it's easy. And this is why people lie to themselves. The spirit, the great spiritual gurus are all fucking their students and unethical and engaging in emotional manipulation. All that. Well, why would that be if they're so transcendent and all that? Because that's what shit, that's arising. And this is all, they're lying about it. Yeah. I think it's not a great relief that I had no, I don't know this, of course. And this, this because I can get myself in the trouble of it. I have no doubt whatsoever that there aren't any enlightened human beings. I am with you. That alone, I would, you know, if I could, I just love saying that.

22:43And if, if anyone else could come to, I don't know, it's just that you don't have to, you can't know it. You just have to be so, no, no, I don't know that. But I am, there's no doubt, I have no doubt that there are loads of human beings who believe they're enlightened. I'm pretty sure of that as well. But I have no doubt that none of them have attained a state of enlightenment, which, which is of, which is of a higher order than regular human beings. That's what I mean. No, no special, no special, well, cats, we all know cats are superior to all other beings. That's already established. Yeah. They've told the dogs that for the problems with the dogs is they're so needy. They need something from you. They need validation. The cat needs nothing. It just needs food and it's going to get it, whether you give it to it or not. That's so true. Yeah.

23:44So yeah, no enlightened humans. So people talk about my awakening when I had my awakening. And, you know, I used to speak in that way because the self was owning the whole process. It was subverting this thing. Instead of this miserable existence, here's a better existence that's elevated that you can't see is also miserable. It doesn't, it's less miserable by relatives because it's somewhat transcendent and the intention is good. And there's a justice built into it that, you know, I will see that all beings are equal. And I will take a vow that I will save all beings, which is absolute madness. I will awaken all beings. Oh, no, no pressure, no pressure then. No. I mean, can you, I can't do anything with us. Imagine responsibility for saving all beings. I mean, I have two fucking beings that I'm responsible for, call my children.

24:44And two is way too much. Yeah. Yeah. It's like now I have to save all beings. This is, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it can sound again. There can be the accusation of this towards this way of speaking about non-duality as a friend of spiritual bypassing as you know, as you, you're not taking any responsibility. And I went, well, the irony is when you're not taking responsibility and this is odd, this is really odd. When, when you don't feel it's your responsibility to be responsible, being responsible just happens so easily and naturally. And you actually end up appearing to be much more responsible than you did when you were trying to be. Now, that's weird. And, and I think we should, we'll apply some specialness to Tim Klissnow and say we'll call this Tim's paradox.

25:49Tim's paradox is by not giving a fuck, by realizing you were never this in control. Suddenly, you're like basically the Buddha-ish without trying. And all these motherfuckers, as long as you make sure you said that, I'm not saying that. But see, by saying it about you, I'm, I have to imply it about myself, right? Well, what there isn't, there isn't the resentment. So here's the thing, when I was trying to be responsible, there was always the counter. There was always the flip, which was fuck I so resent having to do this one. I just want to do my own tricks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now, now that's not, I absolutely love, because if I really don't want to do it, I don't, I don't, I'm not going to have to, it's not going to happen. Not really. So I actually, what I call responsibility is we're actually joyous and a pleasure. That's exactly, I made the responsibilities so there were no longer joy and I was always trying to escape from them.

26:50That's exactly right. So now it's like, you'll spend hours on the phone talking to somebody about what this, with no expectation that you're helping them even, it's just the natural movement, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And then the, and then boundaries seem to initially it feels kind of porous maybe, but, but boundaries naturally show up. So the nose come so easily. Yeah. Oh, no, no, it's much easier than it was ever was, because I was such a people, please. Me too. I was terrified. I was terrified of saying no. Me too. They won't like me. They won't like me. I'm not good enough. Anyways, I should say yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be out of the group. Out of the group. No, I'm not in a group. So I can't be in a lot of a group. I mean, it is really, it is a relief to not be in any group, because identity is a funny thing. And, you know, as self, we don't, we don't speak about it enough because that's the vast majority of the energies of self, I think, is in who I identify as who I am.

27:59So, and this isn't taking it now. There are some people they take on a spiritual identity, don't they? And what I'm speaking of is, is like, that's not possible anymore. It's just you just couldn't, you just can't take on a new identity. There's just this, this incredible emptiness that, you know, this is so full. I mean, it's cliché. It's empty fullness is the greatest non-jewel cliché, but it's beautiful because the emptiness, which is no, there is no identity, but that empty of identity is full of life. Yeah. Is so alive with, it did no requirement for any identity at all. And you know what I've noticed, I don't know if you've noticed this Tim is, that's beautifully said. In that emptying out of the noticing, this is chips, there's no way this is, is a natural alignment with whatever seemingly is happening.

29:09So, if someone's sitting in front of me telling me their life story and telling me all this stuff, there's a natural way that this will just align with that and can, I don't know how to talk about this. It becomes everything. And then after it's done, this, whatever this is, is back to whatever's happening here. And it used to be the self would say there's a lack of integrity. There's a, there's a, not a solid identity. And so something's wrong with you because you're not you consistently. And the truth is, that's all gone. That's all gone. Now it's like, you're everything at any moment. And even that's saying too much because you're not anything. So that's how it's experienced here. Yeah, I wouldn't say it quite like that because there is just, just whatever seems to be happening that is all there is. So, where, and the whole notion of my last book was called, is called the illusion of continuity.

30:09That's just what you've alluded to there. The whole notion that there is a constant made that there is this, there is this identifiable sense of being that is constant and it lives. It is what is living life. It is, it is what separate separate from life and what is in relation to life. And this is just not true. There is no, there is no continuity at all. No, all continuity is a luxury. This, this is appearing and disappearing simultaneously always. There isn't actually anything that ever remains. I mean, it is, is so mind blowing mind can't get to grips with it at all. So all efforts, because I still talk to a lot of people who are quite intellectual and they go, they want to understand. And I went, well, that is okay. And I understand why you want to understand because that's, that's how you approach problems as a human. That's how we've been taught.

31:11But for this, it's worthless. It just won't work. You won't understand this. You can't understand that life is being born and passing away with no space in between. There can't be any recognition of that. There can't be any comprehension of that. You know that there isn't, there aren't actually any things, just the appearance of things that appear and disappear. And they appear so in such a way that they never arrived, they never actually landed. It's just like a waterfall of just, you know, and there's, and, and the sense of continuity is also that waterfall. There's actually nothing that's happened in the past. Yeah. Yeah, there's no experience. And of course, the sense of continuity is very real when it feels real. I don't, I'm not, I'm not discounted. You know, I'm not saying, I'll know that's wrong.

32:13Because there isn't, there isn't anything around about this. They're saying, no, this is, this is the way this is the truth. This is, and how can I get? No, they just can't, they just can't be any of that anymore. And again, of course, that's so, that's such a wonderfully peaceful place to be where you, you haven't got to make anything else wrong. Because you're not defending this position as the right position. And again, that makes this worth speaking about that when there's nothing, when there's nothing left to defend, because really all arguments are just self defending its position, it's point of view. I just need to, I can't be defeated because I will be, there'll be less of me if I, well, when there's none of you, there's nothing, nothing to be defended.

33:17It doesn't mean like you say if you get tough in traffic, you weren't given the best. That's just normal animal human and a reaction. None of that goes. None of that goes. Yeah, that's what the spirit, oh, go ahead. I was going to say the spiritual circus that's out there, the spiritual industrial complex, which is, you know, a bunch of me, will tell you that you'll transcend that, that you'll find equanimity, that there'll be love for all beings, this, this, that, and the other thing. And this is more just story. This is more story because it, like you said, there's nothing here that says truth. There's this. And even this is, it's not knowable. So your new book is going to be called doubtless uncertainty. And that's, that's the best phrase I think I've ever heard. Oh, I love it. Yeah. When Kate told me that you said that's the best phrase you'd ever heard.

34:17Oh, yes. Yes. It's taken me two years. There's been two years in the trying to put it together. Wow. Wow. What? In a week or two. That'll be out. That's what I will share it widely. I, because I was going to say now this gets to the point. And I know I interrupted you. So we'll probably go back to whatever you're going to say. But the, the, the people ask why, if this is the case, why even open your mouth about this since it can't be spoken, it can't be conveyed in this way. And I, you know, I know you have, you have reasons for this. And my reasons are because this is the only compassion. And it arises here. And it gives me joy. That's it. That's pretty much why I say. Nice. We're aligned again for no reason. Yeah. That's not a thing. So why speak about this on my immediate answer, because that kind of. I go. Why? Why not? Why not? Why not? And then they go, yeah, but why do you do it? I said, well, I love speaking about it. That'll be the main reason.

35:28That's it. And the other reason that's just the one you said, it's compassionate. Yeah. But it's only compassionate for the few who can hear it. So if you want your specialness to go, which the me now will hear this and go, I want my specialness to go to, um, become a non-duality speaker like Tim or talk the way I talk. And believe me, people will shun you. You, you will. There'll be three people who are like, wait, tell me more. I don't understand what you're saying, but this is the only thing that's ever really made any sense. And I don't know why. And then everyone also say you're a nihilist. You don't care about Palestinian children. You're, um, you're bald. I mean, I get that for no reason. And, you know, all this shit. And it's like, yeah, all that. And you hear it as arising. Just talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Pink Panther us here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together. And they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the tabby tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products and discover custom playlists on Spotify, but just for you based on who you are and how you listen.

36:41Live your story with coach. Learn more at coach.com. Parenting unlocks some pretty impressive skills like carrying grocery bags, a soccer ball, and a sleepy kid all at once. Good thing the newly designed Chrysler Pacifica has a few tricks of its own hands-free power sliding doors and lift gate, rear seat entertainment and stone-go seating and storage that adapts faster than your family's weekend plans. Visit Chrysler.com to learn more. Chrysler is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. Part of it is because I just can't let Rupert Spira continue to stand there going consciousness arises as the mind and when we consciousness the, and I'm like, I just, you know, I'm a vicious hate, Zubin has a lot of hateful conditioning and he just wants to lash out at these fuckers that diluted him when he was younger. Just know it's just your own shit. It's my own shit. Oh, it's yours. I mean, it's not your shit, but it is only your shit.

37:49That's it's only the shit arising here has nothing to do with Rupert or anything. I don't even know the Rupert exists. Nothing to do with it. But it's a sweetest man ever. Super sweet heart. I've met him. I don't understand a word he's saying. No, he fucked me right over me too. Right in the fucking butt. I was like, you know, I why did I go down this rabbit hole and and again, again, I think that's how it was. I have to be around how many times I just so I'm just. I'm still wanting to cry. I'm trying to write number one. I'm trying to be aware. And then I'm trying to be aware of being aware. And it's like the coolest. How could you be more cruel to a human being? Then what you need to just sit and contemplate that? I could I could take you one higher level of cruelty. Look for the look for the me like self inquire like try to find the me. It's like that is another rabbit hole.

38:55I've got a story about that because people ask me, did you do so did you do self inquiry? You know, remind yourself inquiry. And I go, yeah, yeah, I did. I think I did it for 12 minutes. Didn't find anything. You don't have to do it for very long to realize that this is not happening. There's nothing here. There's nothing going to be there's nothing to be found. Because really that's what that's what I'm speaking about when I'm speaking. I'm really so so what is the tip? I know there's nothing to be found. This is this is all this is everything. This is a nothing. So if you're looking for nothing. Here it is. If you're looking for anything. Here it is. If you're looking for everything. Here it is. I think that covers most bases. You know, there's not much. I don't think there's anything excluded from that. But but Tim, see your problem is you haven't done your shadow work. You haven't cleared out your chakras. You haven't emptied the vastness.

40:00So how how is it you attained no self, Tim? Well, here's the beauty. I haven't done hate no self. Because there's not it's not a possibility. I do speak about this as the only possibility as well rather than living in possibility, which self does. Self lives in in though, though world of self is a world of possibility. Yeah. And and this isn't this isn't even the only possibility. Because that suggests that this has to be the way it is. This doesn't have to be the way it is. It just is the way it seems to be. That's all. Nothing else. And it's so and it's so undeniable. You say this to anyone. You can't argue against that. But how does how does life seem to be and they'll say, and I don't want to.

41:00Is there anything else than how life seems to be? It's a really good question to ask people. I don't talk non duality in the pub, but I might if people say, what do you talk about? I might just say it in that way and then just leave them with thinking about what is there other than the way it seems to be. Because there isn't. There isn't anything. There's something I noticed when you stop talking non duality in the pub, when you stop inflicting it on people that it's just not arising in that way, that that is one of the cardinal things that seems to happen when there's nothing to defend. There's no one to defend it. There's no attainment that you could possibly have. It's suddenly like, no, why if that's not arising, why would I open my mouth about it? Why do we open our mouth about it? Because people because we want to, but also because people are there to hear it. I love speaking to anyone about it.

42:00But I'm narrow. I was a little evangelical for a while. I went through that. I went through that. Yeah. I was really obnoxious. Of course, you just done. You were incredibly unpopular already. All it did was make it more. That it was emphasized that you were the asshole that they thought you were. So now I only speak if when I'm asked to. It's lovely when people do ask questions. It just lights up something. There's an energetic light. Okay. Let me ask you a question. I'm curious. During this years and years of this whole thing happening, did you notice phenomenally, like as terms of what's arising, a lot of energetic stuff in what you're calling body and all that. Was that part of the appearance for you? Yeah. A lot. Yeah. Me too. Very bodily. Yeah. Yeah.

43:00So these are just descriptors of what seemingly arose here, but it doesn't mean that it's a prescription for someone. Oh, look into the body and see. Yeah. I will speak about my awakening experiences and my suffering and my story. Yeah. Me too. I'd always rather not because it's because I just know how I always heard those. I couldn't. The seeker me can't help but hear those in some prescriptive way. Absolutely. I probably haven't suffered enough though. I probably need to do that. Oh, it will happen that way. No, it doesn't happen. There's the thing. There's nothing that has happened. Now, I mean, that ever. I mean, then I mean, and of course, seeker's hate hearing that. I like telling them that. No, so I can tell any parts of my story. I'm not saying it, but I generally.

44:02I never I don't really offer it, but I will say if asked about it, because it does, because people you just can't help. I remember Tony's past a story of walking across the park. And then there were just the. They're just there were just the walking. There was just the feet on the. And I know, yeah, probably need to find what. Probably need to find that part. Yeah. Yeah. Find that park. Go on the exact footsteps. Walk in the monster's footsteps. It's just how we work as human beings. You know, it's just naturally. But no, there isn't there isn't like a coming to this. We there is no coming to this because there is just this. This doesn't come into being and then go out of being. That's just being. Yeah, just is just is. That's it. It's completely the wonder. Is it so incredibly ordinary and yeah.

45:02Sometimes still completely overwhelmingly. Actually, so most of the time is for is boring. The ordinary and then just bomb just the absolute wonder of everything. Just being that's it. And this is it. Are there isn't anything else? Shit. This is exactly it. That's exactly how it is here. It's like every day is it. There's this. There's this. There's this. Yeah, just this. Just this. And then all of a sudden it's just. Holy fuck. That this even is. Like that's it. Well, the thing is because this is nothing. I think when. When I seem to have those. Moments of war and wonder now. It's not necessarily at some specific beautiful occurrence. It's just that there is anything that there is that's right that there is anything.

46:05Because this is empty. There's no. And that's hard. It's impossible to convey. It's not hard to convey. Let's just say it is. You can't convey that. But then is the emptiness is completely full and alive. And you know. Yeah. Wondersly Ordnance. And you don't have to look any further than the sense in the in what we're calling this body. Like the live dancing. You haven't. You haven't got to go anywhere. You haven't got to be any different. It's just that there is nothing for me to do. That's why this can be so devastating for self. Because it leaves me nothing to do and nowhere to go. Cuts the legs right off the self because it's walking. Trying to find something and now it's just nothing. It can do. Yeah. And the other thing of course, the other tactic that self uses. Either you know, running.

47:06But the other one is hiding. And there's no there's nowhere to hide. That's the that's the that was the more salient difficulty that was felt here was that I can't escape. Like there's nothing I can do to stop or help or end or any of it. It's it's a hopeless hope goes when I just hope is gone. It's like I can't there's no hope. Yeah. Which was a huge gift in the end. The end of that is the. That's the gift that never stops giving. The people here this and they're like what you hope you don't have a hope what the fuck is wrong with you. It's like give it a try. You can't you can't you can't give up hope. No, you weren't. And I really because people say to me, you know, was there a final point where you stepped so you got to the edge.

48:08You know, there's all these analogies. Yeah, the mind projects all the stuff that you got to the edge of the abyss. So you know, and you looked into the you looked you stayed in the and then you just found somewhere you found the courage to step into the void. And I go, no, I fucking screamed like a baby. And I said, I've changed my fucking mind. Get me out of here and drag anyone under but there was no no one no one came to save me. No one Jesus on the cross God. Why have you forsaken me? I mean, it no literally there's no hope. Yeah, no one came. Yeah. Thank God, but not not for lack of trying like reaching out to this speaker or trying to have a one on one. I got more and more the more the desperation just went up and up. Yeah, ratcheted to a fever pitch. Yeah. Oh, until yeah.

49:09And the fear the fear was really incredibly intense terror. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so I understand when people talk about ego death and they talk about the death of self, it makes perfect sense. Why you that that is how it feels or that's certainly how it can feel. But isn't it beautiful that there was never a mood to die? I mean, I mean, there isn't anyone who attained eternal life. There is just eternal life. I mean, isn't that beautiful? I mean, it's like, yeah, and you thought it was for you, but it wasn't for you. I'll tell a quick, stupid story that I know the seekers that are watching are going to grab on this and go, okay, I want to do that now. But what you just said happened to me, I already had quite a bit of there was just, yeah, of course. And then it's just a rose.

50:09It's like, hey, you know what you've never done is five me O DMT, the most powerful psychedelic. Get it. You just guide hit emailed me sounded very clear. I was like, yeah, I'll do that. And in the sitting of that in that morning of doing that, it was the entire apparent journey showed itself. So it was like, oh, yeah, sit here and the low dose you just have this very meditative equanimity, transcendence, love, all the blissy type spiritual stuff. Then the next stage was, oh, fuck no, like I'm dying. No, no, no, no, no, no, and seeing all your attachments, wife, kids, family, friends, all this, no, no, no, and then the physical feeling of dying and all of it. And then punching through that, it seemed the body just being dissolved. And then the just absolute non knowing, non conceptual realization that there was nothing to die. It's always been eternally this. There's nowhere to go. Nothing to do. All the seeking was bullshit and just laughing, jumping on the couch. And the guide thinking that you were going to jump out the window, but you just realizing what the fuck has been doing all this life.

51:14And all of that was in, you know, two hours. Well, that was that old sounds familiar. I just did it without any assistance. There you go. There you go. By instance, without the drugs. And I'll say the drugs didn't do that. They almost took me on a story right of that. It was all, it was already kind of known. And afterwards it was still known. So nothing changed. It was almost like, Zubin had to do that. I don't know why. And it was all story. But it was just like that. And just giggles, just like the cosmic joke, just laughing, just a big smile. And it's like you said, it's like how I want to thank God that it's that way. Any other, listen, Tim, any other fucking way that it might be would be a fucking tragedy from here. That's how it's like this is. It just doesn't make sense. It couldn't be. How could it be? And everything I'm saying is nonsense. Yeah, it just doesn't, it just doesn't occur.

52:16That it, yeah. They just don't know. It can't be other. There is, there is, there is no other. This is the death of other. Yeah. There's no, there are, there is no other. There are no others. So there is no other time. There is no other place. There are no other means. There are no other. They see selves. There are, there are no other. The other is otherness that is a loseery. And without self, there is no other. So I get why I certainly don't speak this way because I think it's really misleading. But I know that there's quite a lot of non-geology talks about this only self. You know, the big self with the capital S and you know that traditional way of speaking about this. And I, I get why that might be how it's felt because there isn't anything other than this. And of course, if there isn't any other, then maybe it's all me.

53:18So the notion that it's all me, but that is nothing that feels so. I don't have any sense of that at all. Just, just the lack of otherness, the sense of no otherness only comes from the absence of me-ness. Because everything else is other than me. That's, it's very simple. Duality is just, that's me. And then there's everything else. Not me. Whether it's neither me nor there's not me. Because there's no me. And there's no not me. What is there? I can't say. And it's this need to be able to say, to pin it down. That's all mind wants to do. Mind just wants to possess this to know it and understand. And of course, everything and nothing will not be understood.

54:18It's utterly resistant to not knowing and understanding. Everything has to come back to the relative in order for there to be knowledge and understanding. And then there's an appreciation of relative understanding much greater than ever there was before. I love science much more than I used to. And that's really it. Because the people say, well, you're dismissive of all of that. No, no, it's quite the contrary. It's so wonderful. I mean, how incredible that human minds can. Oh, it's exactly that way here. It's a beautiful dance. I mean, I was a science nerd before, but it was always in service of trying to find the truth about everything. Now it's like, look at that. We've got these beautiful stories of Jupiter's gravity and sending a probe around it and quantum mechanics. And I'll just eat it up and watch YouTube videos on, on repeat about this stuff.

55:18Yeah. Absolutely gorgeous. There was something I wanted to say about this capital, for so many years, people would speak of this. And I would go trying to find it. And the fundamental sense of brokenness of the me was like, I can't get it. I don't feel like I'm one with the tree. I don't feel like I'm everything. I feel this aggrandized sense of being. Instead, I'm just like, all it is is this. I don't understand. What am I missing? And the cosmic joke was I wasn't missing anything, actually. No, no, no. But there was still a one trying to not miss something that, then of course, it seems like it's missed. And I see, self is only about identity. And of course, if self goes from poor little me to grandiose super me. I'm very happy with that. The best self you can be.

56:19Exactly. Super self. Yeah. No. Sorry. No, super self for you. Or sorry, super self for you. That's actually the worst possible outcome. Yeah. Yeah. Because like everything it comes and goes. And when it felt like it's lost, I lost super self. But the thing is, I'm no longer, I'm no longer anti. I know because you said about, you know, I'm still got the best best of us towards Rupert, which makes me laugh. Could I felt I could name some names, but I'm not going to you're a good person. I'm not. No, I'm not. But there's such an innocence now. I just I don't have is lovely that all of that's gone. I mean, I have no doubt that. And then there probably are a few charlatans out there who are manipulative and even that,

57:23even that is innocent. The innocence of all of this. Yeah. It's just so beautiful. Yeah. You know, there's no one there's no one doing any of it. It's just wonderful. That's the beauty. How can we speak of things like justice when there's nobody doing this? I would no longer talk about justice, but I would talk about locking away dangerous human beings. Right. Yeah, of course. Could somebody say, well, you'd let them all out and said, no, I'd probably lock a few more up, actually, just to keep the streets safe. I don't want to bring back the firing squad. I mean, it really does it matter. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I'm not. But it's not, yeah, it sounds so incredibly liberal, but it's not like that at all. That's right. It's just the reason there isn't this sense of, oh, well, it's the right thing to do. And justice needs to be down and there's no sense of that, or?

58:24Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And again, the unconditional nature of this is that it's unconditional. So, but that that that means, if it unconditionally arises, that someone's posing a danger to your family in this seeming thing, you'll act. You'll absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And you're more likely, because self really inhibits natural reactions. So you're more likely to be more reactive, not less. That's, that's I 100% of experience that this way. It looks a lot more like a cat. The cat is always in a kind of a flow of movement in reaction to the environment. And you don't get a feeling, of course, I'm projecting, but you don't get a feeling that this cat is introspecting about its next action in relation to the cat's self. It's just catting. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, and you stroke me, I can be powering. And then you just stroke me a little bit wrong. And I'm just going to fucking swipe me. Absolutely. Absolutely. My cat, of course, has no teeth anymore because she had these dental problems.

59:26So all her teeth had to be removed. And now when there's a when there's a biting, it's just hilarious. It's a completely impotent act of, of, of futility. But she still does it. Well, we've all got that to come. When we no longer, our bites is not feared by anyone anymore. By nothing. Yeah. Absolutely nothing. Well, that's been such a pleasure to meet you. Oh, it's really been a joy. Like this is a treat. Yeah. Likewise. And when's this so the new book you're going to release soon? That was on Sunday. Well, now, now you're on my team. Yeah. I'm, looks like I'm on your team as well. Then, yeah, I'll let you know when it's out. You could just, you could give me a plug. Would be brilliant. Oh, I will do that times a thousand. And I will read it because it's fun. Yeah. I work with my friend Julie and she helps me put,

1:00:26we're editing it at the moment. So it's nice. So we're just finishing it off. By editing it, you mean you're just making chat GPT write it for you? No, there's no chat involved in any of this. No, I don't. I mean, I could have got you to just write the book. Oh, I mean, just write in your style. It's really good at that. And yet it comes out. I mean, I do it. I mean, this is just amusing, but no, I don't, I'm not into it. Kate's really into it. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a new, um, confidant, you know, she loves a chat with chat. You know, I made the mistake of doing the voice chat for the first time while I was in the car. I was like, chat, um, I'm, uh, I've heard about Tim Kliss. Can you in the context of non-duality? Can you tell me anything about him? And, uh, chat was like, oh, Tim is a radical non-duality speaker and goes through the whole like, you know, resume in relation to Tony Parsons.

1:01:27He's like this in relation. I'm like, this is the most made up nonsense I've ever seen. I watch a single video and I'm like, this is like, no, this is my new best friend. I don't know what the fuck chat's talking about. But it's fun. I love to have chat and knows how I'm in relation with all the other. I mean, I've never heard some shit to do. It's such fucking total nonsense. Yeah, it's like, well, I was searching one of my own old music video parodies because I wanted to find the video because I needed to make an edit. And it said, oh, this is this music video parody by Physician Zubin Demanya known by his alter ego Z.D. MD is quite popular for the following reasons. And it goes to this whole thing. And I'm like, I'm reading a eating popcorn. Like, it's happening to someone else because it is. Like, I have no idea what this is. There's nothing to do with anything that's sensed here or even at the time that I can remember, which of course is just now. But yeah, it's hilarious. It's all made up. But that doesn't mean it ain't fun sometimes to just read about.

1:02:27Oh, no, I know that could be so fun, isn't it? Yeah, for sure. Awesome, Tim. So in the very beginning of this video, I've forgotten to hit record on my camera. So I'll record a little intro that says, it'll just be Tim and you'll hear my voice for a bit. And then my video will come in only for like literally a minute. And I'll probably put this out in the next couple days, if not shorter than that. And anything else you want to pitch to the crew, to the 10 people that watch anything I talk about with non-duality? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to Germany. I'm going to Munich and to Berlin in November. For a couple of weeks, got talks in Munich and Berlin. So if you're interested, look at the website, Timklistis.com. I'll put it in the links. Yes, excellent. Timklistis.com. Timklistis.

1:03:27This definitely silences my website. Beautiful. I looked at your website. It's actually really well done. It's surprisingly good. Yeah, surprisingly good. It's not really good. It's, yeah, I've got a Russian friend, Dimitri, who did all this stuff for me. Oh, it's really beautiful. There's a cat on there and it's, yeah, I really like it. Oh, that's my beloved serial. Oh, oh. And died since the day I was born. So where are you these days right now? I'm today, I'm in Ireland. I'm, I live just outside Cambridge. Got it in the in the flat East Anglia and the East Anglia. Nice. Well, I will show up at your door one day and I'll call the police. Yeah, likewise. Thank you, Tim. I'll get into, yeah, I'll get in touch with you again when my, when my book's in.

1:04:31Perfect. And then we'll, we'll share the hell out of it. Yeah, I'll, that'll be lovely. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Dimitri, coach, talk to you. It's a total joy. Thanks, Tim. I'll see you soon. Thank you. Bye. Take care. Bye. Pink Panther is here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the tabby tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, but just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with coach. Learn more at coach.com.