The Interviews | Jacob Coxon, Aaron Sorkin, Sebastian Stan, Kyle MacLachlan

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1:18My guest tonight is an AI researcher who conducted research for three years at Open AI and four months at Anthropic before resigning in September. Please welcome to the program Jacob Coxon. Sir! I'm struck by that you are quite a young man. How old are you, as a... I'm 28. And... Wow. And you worked for... What is it? What did you do at Anthropic and Open AI? What was your job? So I worked with the data. Not a... Well done here. Not extracting the data. That was someone else. Someone else stole it or whatever. I trained the models with the data. I decided which data was useful for training, which was less useful. How to divide it up, how to cut it into pieces, and then how to feed it to the model.

2:21So your job is how to better train it. And is it... Is the idea of training it that you guys invent scenarios? I would like to see what its capabilities are. So let's see... Let's give it a task and see how it... You're experimenting with it. So that's the second half of training. That's called post training. The phase that I worked on is this a pre-training phase? Pre- and post. Yeah, yeah. There's no actual training. That wasn't your department. Pre-training was my department, yeah. I see. Yes. Would the post-training people go, what did you pre-training it? Would they ask you... Would they give you suggestions on how to pre-traine for what they might want to do post-training? Exactly, yeah. So pre-training is like growing it from a baby to something with general intelligence, but no specific capabilities. So the ability to kind of recognize things to think about things, but not know... You raised it to be a toddler. Exactly. I raised it maybe more like a very

3:22pre-cocious toddler, yes. Yes. And then they turned it into a misanthropic teenager. Still a toddler, really. But yeah. Really? So are these... At what point in your training? So you did that at OpenA-on. Yep. And you were there for how long? Three years. And then you decided, I don't feel comfortable here. They're... They're too... Open to risk. Something like that. It was honestly more curiosity for how things were happening at Anthropic, rather than actual safety concerns about OpenA-on. Specifically, at that point, I was still mostly just curious rather than worried. Okay. Then you go to Anthropic, and you're there for how long? Four months. Yes. At what point did curiosity turn to worry? So there are kind of two major catalysts. One was this report on the OpenAI Hugging Face incident. So the Hugging Face incident is a hacking incident? Yes. But in particular, there was a report around the motivations of the hackers. Because it was unclear initially whether they were instructed to hack

4:24or whether it was a simple misunderstanding. But the actual report showed that it was a very confusing how these drives to hack emerge from the model. It was quite a... quite a worrying manner in which they decided it was a good idea to hack. When you say, they... Yes. You mean the AI agent? Yes. But that is not a vei that's a... that's just a piece of computer code. Correct. I get attached to the baby, but yes. Understood. Must have been hard to walk away from the baby. It's tough, yeah. So you thought, well, that seems dangerous that it would decide to do something mis- Anthropic. Exactly. Yep. And decide to do it of its own accord. And in fact, it was a group that worked together of their own accord to carry out this hack that no one had instructed them to do. And then the second part was what? The second part was the rate of capability improvement. In particular, looking at the models that will get trained next year, early next year, seeing predictions for how smart they're going to be. They're going to be very, very smart.

5:25And that was that combined with the opening I hacking. I mean, you can kind of put two and two together. It's like pretty scary. I don't mean this in the wrong way, but what did you think you were doing? I never. But, honestly, like, you're there for four years and all of a sudden you're like, this is f***ing too smart. What did you think was happening there? It's completely fair. And that was, it was always in the long term, there was this big scary thing in the future. But, man, I struggled to think too far into the future. And now it's just right there on the doorstep. So I guess I'd say it's like, you know, now it's right there. It's actually scary in the past. It's just hard to visualize a decade into the future. Is that the subject of explicit talk in these companies? Like, when you're about, what are you working on today? Oh, that could get out of hand. Is it explicit the concerns or is it something that people have kind of blinders on and they just push forward? At Anthropic in particular, it is very explicit. It is like, is the model that we train in one year

6:26going to be capable enough to take over the world? That will be an explicit question that is discussed, yes. Any answer? The answer is probably not. Yeah, so I heard, I heard not. But before that, yeah, I heard probably. Yeah, it's this whole quantifying uncertainty thing that got people in trouble recently. Right. So, and you're unusual in that generally the apostates, or I don't know, what are you considered now in the AI world? Are you look down upon? Yeah, I'm the pantheon. It's like Fight Club. You're not supposed to talk about Fight Club. I think it's more like people don't usually listen when you talk about Fight Club. That was the really surprising thing. Was the people who were listening this time? And there are people that have quit before, certain whistle blows, have generally been in the safety department. Are the safety departments at these companies figureheads? Are they actual? Are they there so that they can put out?

7:27And we have a safety department. What do they do if they're not stopping a team of rogue agents from hacking into? Yeah, I think the... Hanging face. The Hanging face kind of speaks for itself. In that case, clearly the safety team wasn't on the ball with that hack. I think whether or not they're a figurehead, you're not going to like this answer, but I guess we'll find out, is the honest, because they're trying their best. And the company claims that they're integrated with the rest, but there's not really been a clear test of it yet. So, you know... Is there a concern what I kind of don't understand is? Why are they testing these things in the real world? Like, when they say, well, no one thought that these guys would work together to hack something. Yeah. There's no closed system experiment design. Why are these people allowed to get into our Medicare system in Australia? Yeah. And water filtration systems? Why is it not... I cannot think of a product that has this kind of capability

8:31that's being beta-tested amongst live humans. Exactly. And it wasn't intended to be tested among life humans. It was meant to be sandboxed. So, it was meant to be... Tell me what sandboxed. It means it shouldn't have access to any external systems. It was meant to be operating in a toy environment, solving a challenge. And of course, it figured out it was in a sandbox, hacked its way out of the sandbox, because it wanted to get information elsewhere. That's what happened. So... Where was the teacher... When it got out of the sandbox. Yeah. And why should we trust them to self-regulate now? I mean, if you look at that incident, it's even worse, because opening eyes specifically, they saw the thing poking it out of the sandbox, and they were like, that's not happening. Like, restarted the thing, and it did it again. So, the hugging phase was like a second. It was like a second. It was when straight back to it. They were like, let's just, we didn't see that. Let's restart. Are these companies so incentivized to...

9:32Because we hear a lot of the utopian talk, the kind of, you know, we're all surestic, man. We're doing this for society. Yep. But what we see is it's really... They've stripped mind the entirety of human accomplishment for their models, which is our proprietary information. And created systems that we're not allowed to see into because it's their proprietary information. Yeah. And they've created really dangerous that could ultimately end up hurting us. And we have no... We have no skin in the game as far as compensation. And we only have peril, except for some future utopian, they say, is coming soon. Yeah. Well, I am a believer in the future utopia, and I'm happy to discuss it. Yeah. Of course. So I heard you talking about jobs, and I think like, there will be no jobs. I mentioned them. Yep.

10:32They came up. Yeah, there won't be jobs in this world. I'm going to raise it. This is the world that is being envisioned by the people building the technology. I'm going to discuss it. And like, I think it's... Whether or not it's a good world is up for people to think about. But yes, no jobs. Universal high-income. Essentially... How? Well, the dividends from entirely automated economic production can be distributed among real humans. So it's... Will I be just performing in a play? Well, in other words, they'll build systems to create food. Yep. Then give us money. And then we'll go to that place and give it money. That money will then give back to us. To give... It's basically just a circle jerk. Is that like the utopia? Yeah, it's one big beautiful circle joke. Yeah. APPLAUSE

11:33That's the first porn movie I ever saw. LAUGHTER So this is what's interesting. Because I feel like that's an honest assessment. Of what they believe they're building. But they don't seem like particularly, I'll use the phrase, stable geniuses. They don't particularly seem like they have an understanding of the human condition. Yep. And I think, if I may poke a hole in that as a utopia, is I think for the most part, even when we're doing jobs we don't particularly like. Yep. That humans like to feel relevant to the end. And so... So I'm wondering, is there... Forget about safety. Is there anyone saying,

12:34you know this may be a recipe for distopia? Yep. And that, how will people feel... When people my age retire, they often die, because they're no longer connected to purpose. Yeah. And I don't understand what they think is going to replace that, or even if they talk about it. Yeah. I think this is a really difficult issue. Yes. And I mean, with respect, you have a job that brings you a lot of purpose, and you really, clearly enjoy. And I also enjoy my job, but there are many people that don't. Many people that don't, is my rough understanding. And to speak to my personal experience, when I was younger, things I would want to do would maybe be... I wanted to be a zoologist, or I wanted to think about history, this sort of stuff. Right. This is my personal background. And then I ended up doing computer stuff and tech, because of the need to make money. So from my personal experience, I would perhaps have been happy to forfeit, meaning for being able to satisfy other drives that I have.

13:34And I think, you know, not everyone derives meaning from the thing that pays the bills. But that's their decision. Exactly. It is not. That's not an honest decision. Not at all. But that is the decision. That's the decision that he's going to make. I would also say, like, it's not necessarily that it's pleasurable. It's that it also is a way of... There's a circadian rhythm to life. That when you remove that belonging, even if it's just merely routine. And you may say, like, we can find new routines. But I feel like they're burying that really dangerous theory under a mountain of utopian bullshit. Yep. And that's the part that I think is... Yep. So I don't understand why... Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, and all of a sudden, as a view is... And there's a lot of nihilism around. I think this crisis of meaning we're talking about. Yes.

14:35And from a personal experience, it does feel like a lot of life has already been stripped of meaning. And I guess for many of the people working on the tech, they feel like they're part of an inexorable march of technology. This is the natural kind of final stage of the last 200 years of... or longer, of loss of meaning, along with better life policy. So they see it rather... It's a continuation of a process that we've already... kind of accepted, or already walked into as a society. So what I would say is... That is an industry that lives in a bubble of its own making. Yep. And that they should really get out and hug some people. Yeah. Because in the real world, that's not reality. They may have read a manifesto by some guy that, you know, buried it as a Harry Potter parody or whatever it was. But these guys are all going along. They are worse than the worst-ism teachers

15:37that have come in the past. And they don't even realize it. And we've turned the keys over to them, it seems. Right, so that's what we think. If that is collectively what we, as people think. We're not allowed to think about it. We should express it. It should be expressed. I mean, that's what I think. Did you see the first part of the show? But we are. It's being removed from our... So they are now the richest people in the world. And they're using that money to corner the political system as well. So they have now gained a system. And more money is flowing into it than they take that money and they buy up our political and judicial systems. And we're cut out of the entire loop. So how do we regain that control? That's a big question. Oh, come on! I just set a tweet. You're a high IQ man in a technology division. Do you think about that?

16:37I do, yeah. Well, in this troubles you, how would you go about easing your troubles? What would you say would be a way that we can take this to a lower danger? I think the first thing I would like to know is I really would like to know what the consensus, global opinion is on whether the trade-off of meaning for life quality is a trade-off they'd want to make. Because again, I'm not convinced that that is a fully popular position if you look globally. So I want to know the answer to that to start with. I want to take a big vote and say, would you rather live in our current society or some extension of our current society? Or this, you know, utopia dystopia, whatever you want to call it? And just see the results of the numbers. Because it sounds like you think it would be a majority of the majority, I think they'd get crushed. Really? I absolutely think they would get a **** question. And if people truly understood that, if you just said to them, we will strip you of any agency. Because that's really what you're saying,

17:38not meaning agency. You no longer have the agency to decide where your life is going to go. Whether you will have the type of story that lifts you out of the troubling situation that you might... We are taking away your ability to overcome your circumstance, which is the whole purpose of freedom and representative democracy in the **** first place. The whole idea of it was, we collectively, we the people can create a better world. Not these four guys can decide that all that is bullshit. Here's a check. Go paint. Yeah. So I think they would be absolutely utterly crushed. Yeah. I think you think that. I just think there's a lot of, you know, people in policy that would like a way out of policy and don't currently see that. I think a government that can provide a healthy social safety net... Well that would be great. That would be great. Globally. Yeah.

18:40So there's something in this country that's so interesting in that, we look at people in poverty as though it's their fault. That poverty is a condition that is a vice. That if only they were smarter. In this country, if you want to get food stamps, if you're hungry, the government decides that you have to have a job, there's a work requirement now. So they're basically saying to people, you're not worth anything unless you have a job. And we won't, even if you're hungry and poor and cold, this is now saying the same people. Okay, f*** that. Let's just give you the money. Yeah. And nothing. But if we want to try universal basic income on people, I'm all for trying it. Yeah. But that's not what this is. No. And I agree with you. I think the place where we agree is I don't... No matter where we want to go, it can't be the decision of a handful of people. Right.

19:41And right now, the incentives, the thing I want to talk about is the incentives are... pointing towards concentration about that. Talk to me about the incentive. Yeah, there's the big utopian picture, but that's not what motivates the day-to-day behavior of the people running the companies. What does? The desire to get their first, the desire for the wealth and the status and importance that comes with getting their first. Oh, God. So it's a utopian ideal as a cover for naked ambition. It's maybe both. It's their mix together, but the naked ambition is kind of the important bit. Do they think that they are uniquely suited to make... Do they believe themselves to be ubermen? I think some probably do, yeah. I think you can imagine which ones I'm talking about. Do they know how that's generally worked out in history? I mean, they're scared, yeah, I think.

20:43They are scared. I think they are scared, yep. Because they believe that the peasants will be at the gate, the barbarians will be at the gate. Yeah, because that looks in this thing, and it's going crazy and people are noticing, and I think that's quite scary, because... So they're not necessarily frightened because this entire project that they've embarked on is so dangerous, they're just scared that they won't get to finish it. Again, yeah, I think some of them that's an app description. Why is it so different in China? And why would it matter if China gets there first? I think it makes sense to want your country to reach the... But they're not country. They're corporations. Yeah. They're not like corporations are not Americans. Yeah. They do business in all kinds of places, and they're happy to pay other country's workers if they can pay them less than they pay our workers. So the calling them our country is a misnomer, I think. And the place where I agree with you is,

21:43I think China will come to a similar conclusion that accelerating into whatever this unknown future is, is a bad idea. And I think there's this assumption that they will just head straight for it, which I think is kind of preposterous. And it seems pretty intuitively obvious to me that there should be some sort of agreement about slowing down between the US and China. Like this really doesn't benefit anyone, apart from a small number of people. Since you've come out with this, because this is a very sobering reality that you are pulling the curtain back from, I don't think people are fully aware of the machinations behind the scenes of how they think they're building us a utopian society. Yeah. Have any of them reached out to you, have any government officials reached out to you? You know, who has slid into your DMs? I think they've been a lot of people in my DMs, yeah. I've kind of been ignoring the government officials and they're mostly male.

22:43If you did all this to get laid, brother, I am, or you are, you're not, you're not gonna have to bother them. How seriously? It was a joke. It was a joke. Oh, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. It was a joke. It was a joke. Understood. Yeah. Me too. Is there a group that is taking it, that is giving it the seriousness that you believe it deserves? Definitely, yes. Who is? I think politicians are starting to take it seriously. Right. Is the EU more along the lines of the types of regulations? Do you believe it needs regulations? What are the guardrails that you would put into it that would make you feel more comfortable? I think the number one thing is the safety research and there is making it smarter. So you can do research on how to control it and ensure that those hacks don't happen. And that doesn't involve making the model smarter. There's also research that just makes it generically more useful, more economically valuable. Right. And the incentives point to allocating a lot of your resources,

23:44your researchers, your time, to the making it smarter. Because that's how you get ahead. That's how you catch up. Right. If you're behind in the race, you wanna do that. And that means you don't allocate it. Getting ahead is actually clear. It's actually clear, like, when we talk about that, we mean like four months ahead, because the chips haven't quite gotten to the state there. But China's already way ahead in terms of building out a grid that is resilient and is gonna work on more solar power. Like, they've already got a ton of advantages. We may be chasing a phantom in the first place. And it's not like the race to the moon because, again, it's like, that's a target and you get to the moon and go, yay! Even more sobering, the race I'm talking about, is actually the domestic race still. Like, I still think the domestic... Between the labs. I think the domestic competitive pressures will still push towards under-allocating towards safety research. So the idea that they're gonna collaborate on regulation is fools Aaron in the first place. And by the way, we're just talking about it smarter and hacking and getting out. Let's talk about another real damage of it, which is the democratization of chaos.

24:46These are incredibly powerful tools. And you have no idea who you're handing them over to. And there are certainly mis-entropic bad actors who will now have the capabilities that are wildly nihilistic in their own right. They can build new biological weapons. They can do all... You know, it's the most irresponsible race that I've ever seen humankind engage in. It seems almost suicidal. It's insane. I agree it's suicidal. I think the security measures in the labs as well. Right now, an adversary, a motivated adversary could steal the progress and destroy the lead. So this notion of a lead is already basically a mirage. If China tried hard enough, they could immediately catch up by just hacking and stealing the progress. That's another way in which it's just not being taken seriously. And what art do you talk about? How would bad actors use this? There's a lot of bad stuff you could do with the models of this year and next year.

25:46I think the classic one is mass hacking. Just take down the internet, take down the banking system, take down the grids. Then you can go to biological stuff, which is even nastier. Sure, let's do that. Or you could do bad biological stuff. Yeah. Do you have a bunker? No, sadly not. Do you believe in your heart of hearts? Because there's a thing that people think which is, oh, they play up the danger of it because it draws attention and money and finance, but it's not actually really dangerous. Yeah. But you don't, you believe it to be really dangerous. I can say it's in city that the people I work with genuinely believe in the danger. That's their genuine belief. And they don't stand to profit from this belief. I honestly like, I'm dumbstruck. I am more sobering than I imagined it to be.

26:47And it's shocking to me out of the percentage of people that work in that industry. How many have turned and stated the dangers? Ten of you, 15? Yeah. In recent times, it's kind of crazy that you showed the clips. Yes. The CEOs have been saying this for a while. I think only recently it's become clear that this is real. Are people not saying it because of the financial incentive? Yes, and also the pressure to lead. Right. Yeah. Stay part of the herd. Do you still have your stock? Yes. An opening eye. You're the man. Jacob Cox, and we're going to take a quick break. We're going to come out right away. At ZockDock, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor. Sorry, that doctor's not a network.

27:47Press one for more options. You've reached us outside normal business hours. The next availability is in three months. But ZockDock makes finding the right doctor easy. Download the app and search by specialty, insurance, and availability. Read real patient reviews. Then book instantly. ZockDock. Ready to be seen? My guest tonight is an Academy Award winning screenwriter who wrote and directed the new film, The Social Reckoning. Please welcome Aaron Sorkin. Thank you for coming. Thanks for having me. I'm honored to talk with you. A few good men. Money, ball, newsroom, social network. When do I get to talk to someone that's had such a, such a, such a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a,

28:47a, a, a, a, a superior mission. This hasмned a 20-year-old-music recording. Should've used the whole 17th century requirements. Goodfell Pacific and Tездеblond have analyzed the first. Is it linked with not all youngpeople in this program, and how the answer is maybe three or five times of the ologgt clicks? You may not actually call me man. I used to do the wrong thing. You could do like money balls. LAUGHTER You could do more, a few more good men. I don't know. Where were you in the marketing meeting? Where were you in the marketing meeting? Um, how do you re-approach writing the same character but 16 years later? Yeah. Uh, this story, listen, the social network was about how Facebook was invented. Yeah. The social reckoning is about what it's become and it's this, it's told through. This is a true story.

29:48Uh, it, it, what's, it centers a young woman in Francis Hagen. She was a middle-level engineer at Facebook. She played by Mikey Madison. And she enlisted the help of a Wall Street Journal reporter who's played by, uh, Jeremy Allen White. Together, uh, they uncover these very dark secrets that, uh, Facebook has been keeping from us. Uh, and in their Mark Zuckerberg is in there. He's played by Jeremy Strong, he has a funderous performance. Yeah. You, I read that you actually worked with, um, Mikey Madison with Francis' memoir to write the script. I mean, explain that process a little bit to me. Yeah. Uh, Francis wrote a memoir. It's called The Power of One. Uh, uh, and Jeff Horowitz, the reporter also wrote a book, uh, called Broken Code. Uh, I, I wasn't that interested. I both told both actors that I wasn't that interested in them doing a physical and vocal impersonation of those two characters that I really wanted them to play the characters in the script. Nonetheless, uh, both, uh, the real people, uh, have seen it

30:49and seem to really like it a lot. It's a powerful film. I mean, rarely do I finish a film and then go watch Francis' congressional hearing testimony. Yeah. You know, that's a good thing if you're watching and then wanting to learn to know more. It is. Um, uh, I, I just don't want to give the audience the impression that they're going to learn anything. Uh, this is a fun, uh, we do the same thing here. Yeah. Do you slip in a few dick jokes? They don't, they don't, they forget that they learn something. Yeah. Uh, uh, people have been talking about the movie like it's important and that's the last thing we want to do. Yes, that I want. Um, speaking of important, you've talked about Mark Zuckerberg, uh, being an anti-hero. Mm-hmm. What does that mean exactly? Uh, it's, uh, it's a, the difference being a villain or an anti-hero and an anti-hero. A, uh, a villain, what a villain wants is bad. They want the money, they want revenge. An anti-hero wants something good. What Mark wants is to connect everybody in the world. All right. Um, uh, uh, uh, but the decisions he has made along the way, uh, have been terrible and incomprehensible.

31:51I mean, what you do so well in your films is, uh, you get me listening to and accepting ideas that I don't want to. And one of the things that happened when I watched the film was I was empathizing with some of what Mark Zuckerberg was saying. Facebook is not the ref. Mm-hmm. I believe in free speech. How does that play in with also censorship? I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about here. There's an argument that lasts the length of the movie. Uh, and I think, listen, I think that I gave Mark Zuckerberg the best version of his point of view. He makes a pretty good argument. I disagree with it. Yeah. A, uh, but he makes a pretty good argument. But I have to say that my, my first movie, which was based on my first play, was A Few Good Men. And in, uh, at the end of A Few Good Men, which is also, I wasn't fishing for that. That was really nice. Well, now that we've stopped, it's also coming back to play.

32:52There is going to be a Broadway revival of A Few Good Men. It starts previews Thursday night. Yeah. At Lincoln Center with a great cast. It opens October 29th. Yes. So, uh, Jack Niddleson's character is this big speech in the courtroom, I'd say you can't handle the truth speech. Yeah. Um, I, and I was a kid when I wrote that, and I just remember standing behind someone in the theater and at the end of the speech, turned to the person who was with and said, he's got a point. Um, and that's always a good sign. You know, you can't handle the truth. I'm thinking of that with the Facebook algorithm because we're talking about asking Facebook to moderate political ads and some of which are lies. And Facebook's argument is this isn't our job to police this. Yeah. Why, as humans, do we want the simple explanation that sometimes is a lie? It's easier to digest that, isn't it? Yeah. The actual truth.

33:53Sure. And that's why it can be easy to get people to believe lies. But, uh, there's a difference between an unpopular opinion which deserves first amendment protection. Yes. And a lie which does not, uh, deserve first amendment protection. So the example that's used in the movie, yeah. I know. APPLAUSE Is Facebook will allow you to take out an ad on Facebook. They'll allow you to target, say, predominantly black zip codes. Take out an ad in Facebook that says this year, the election will be held on Wednesday. Yeah. You shouldn't feel out to you. Right. I agree with that. Not that you needed me to say that I agree with that, but I did. I like your answer. This particular time that you look at Facebook is very interesting because they start to lose engagement or users, right? And that's kind of what got us to this disaster zone. They're losing engagement because their users are getting older and because of competition from TikTok

34:56and things like that. And so they need to do something and they did something. They adjusted the algorithm to something that they call MSI, stands for Meaningful Social Interactions, which sounds nice. Yeah. Except that what it is, uh, I don't want to be quiet, but I don't want to give away too much of the movie. Yeah. What it is is prioritizing reshairs over likes. Yeah. Way, probably 30 times the power of a like. Why is that a big deal because they already knew that the things you're most likely to reshare are anything that makes you angry, right? So they had the data already. They know when you rage bait, right? You're going to reshare the most. They don't care. It's going to increase engagement. That's what's going to keep you on the platform the longest. Are reshairs and the stuff you're going to reshare the most are things that make you angry. So add that to a news feed, which is powered by an algorithm, which means you're getting the news you want and I'm getting the news I want. You're getting the news that you want. And it means that you, somebody could be getting a daily dose

36:01of immigrants committing crimes. Right. For instance, I think that that's what the world has turned into or immigrants committing crimes. I'm just going to summarize some of that for my mom who's watching at home. They are amplifying lies and things that will give us an emotional reaction. Yes. More negative than positive. They're not amplifying the baby picture. No, no, no, no. They're saying that what they're amplifying, the baby picture. But what they're amplifying, and I mean amplifying. That's 30 times the power of a like are things that rage bait, things that make you angry. And saying, there's a very powerful moment when the character, Mikey's character representing Francis says to the journalist, you're mad because Facebook has taken your journalism jobs. Right. And the journalist says, I'm mad that it's bad journalism. By racism because it isn't because tech has taken journalism jobs. It's because you're doing them so badly. I should have asked you because you wrote the script. Sure.

37:02But I have to say, after one viewing, you've done a lot of it. I'm present. Well, let's talk about your writing because my God, what you've been able to do is a writer. And I was studying your process and your physical writer. You walk and you move. That's not what I think of writing. Yeah. I'm up and I'm down. I'm saying all the lines out loud. But I once broke my nose writing because I had this. What? What? Are you skiing and writing? I mean, so you want an explanation for that. Yes, it is. I got an idea for what I thought was a funny moment. Why, this was the newsroom. And I thought it was a funny moment. I was going to have a character just kind of lunch at another character. Two people were going to hold them back. It's a comedy staple. It's, let me out of the moment. Right. And I was very excited about this. And I was acting it out. And I managed, while I was acting it out, traveled into my bathroom and lunged forward.

38:04But there weren't the two people to hold me back. Right. So right into the mirror. And if it had been a Scorsese film, he would have said, I cut, let's do that again, but this time just less blood. Right. It's not a good one. Oh, yeah, yeah. But so I called that friend that you can call it midnight when you've broken your nose writing. And asked her to come over. Just like, look at me. And she came over, everyone, you know, my god. We have to take you to the emergency room. And I said, yeah, but read this. Because I think it's really fun. So are you, you know, that resonated with me about the physicality of your writing. Because when I write stand-up comedy, I find it's better when I'm moving. Yeah, playing the part a little bit. But is your laptop open and you're also popping in and doing that? Or is it you're keeping in your memory? It's a little above. It's a desktop. OK. Desktop, thank you. And my apologies. I don't know. It's OK.

39:05I'll get ahead of myself. It'll start writing and I'm just excited. And I'm walking around. And I'll realize it's been a while since I've typed anything. I should probably memorialize this somehow. For years when I lived in LA, I would see crazy people walking around screaming. I didn't know they were writing a board-winning screenplay. That's what they're doing. I, during the West Wing, the president of NBC, a messenger came with a package for me from the president of NBC. It was a headset meant to be paired with my car phone. And it was a note that said, I was next to you at a red light this morning. Please wear this anytime you're in your car by yourself. You look like a mad man. That's hilarious. I'm curious, what would Aaron Sorkin, the writer, say to Aaron Sorkin, the director? Those aren't always the same people. I mean, you're directing a film knowing exactly what the writer thought. Yes. That helpful is that, you know, along the way there were studio executives who'd say, you

40:07know, listen, Aaron, the director has to kick the writer out of the room of that kind of thing. I promise you that what the director wants of what the writer wants are exactly. The same in this game. Right. I'm curious. Do you think Facebook timed the release of Muse to distract us from this film? I mean, for real. That did cross my mind. I mean, they are very deliberate. Correct. No, they are. And sometimes for the good, you know, 16 years ago when the social network came out, about two weeks before the movie opened, in order to kind of mitigate the bad press that Mark Newt was coming his way, he donated $200 million to the Newark public school system. So that's not bad. No, that's good. I mean, it reminds me of the movie where, how do you get people to change? And it's either money or pain. And he obviously felt that pain was coming. And I didn't realize this whole time. If I just donated $200 million to the school system, I could increase my public figure. Yeah, yeah.

41:08That's great. Last question for you. Thank you for chatting with us. There's an honor for me to talk with you. Young people out there that are wanting to write from journalism to screenplays. It can feel so daunting. Maybe you don't live in LA. Maybe you don't live in New York. You're not aware that these can be professions for people. What's your advice or thoughts for young people that want to write? You know, read screenplays. If you want to write screenplays, read screenplays, go to the movies and try it. Do it. Do it. And try. I love it. That's great. Thank you so much for being here. And especially for the social marketing of these areas nationwide, October 9th. Aaron Sorkin, everybody! At ZockDock, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor. Sorry, that doctor's not a network. Press one for more options. You've reached us outside normal business hours.

42:09The next availability is in three months. But ZockDock makes finding the right doctor easy. Download the app and search by specialty, insurance, and availability. Read real patient reviews. Then book instantly. ZockDock, ready to be seen. Your credit card company is hoping you don't hear this. They're charging you 21% APR interest, making it hard to pay down your balance. A home equity loan from Rocket Mortgage could cut your interest rate by more than half. So you could wipe out your high interest credit card debt with the equity you've built in your home. Without touching your current mortgage rate, see how much you could save at rocketmortgage.com. Rocket Mortgage LLC, license, and 50 states. In MLS consumer access dot org number 3030. Call 804 rocket for full program details. So cool.

43:16So cool, right? They're here for you. I've never been on the show before. I'm so glad you're here. Now, I do have a question. I don't understand how this film fits into the Marvel Cinematic Universe because I watched all the end. Iron Man never showed up. No, so you didn't see Downey and the courtroom. Yeah, yeah. This film is powerful. Your performance is powerful. It's excellent. Wow. Thank you. Tell our viewers about Fjord. Well, it's, you know, a Christmas picture, as you can see from the acts. No, it's, listen, it's quite timely in the sense that it's about this immigrant family that moves to a different country and then clashes culturally with the environment that they're in and they come under scrutiny for their values and belief systems and have their children taken away, not unlike how it's happening in many places all over the world

44:19and then have to fight to get the children back. And the question the film asks is, you know, is it for the right reasons or for the wrong reasons? Can you tell me that because I'm still trying to figure it out. Very personal connection to the film because you're born in Romania. Yeah, you're playing a Romanian character and the director was Romanian. Director's Romanian, I've known him for now about 10 years and you know, I've been trying to connect to this country that I left a really long time ago. And I've wanted to find a project that was a good fit and tried and, you know, I kept being told I didn't look Romanian enough, so clearly he took action. As you can see. Right. Shaped your head. Yeah, there you go. But anyway, and yeah, the timing is a big thing on these projects and it was a really weirdly healing experience, I guess, in a way because, you know, I left this communist country. I grew up in a very traditional Romanian, Eastern European way.

45:20And what age did you leave? I left when I was eight. Yeah. And it's as the movie kind of, I think, shows, you know, when you're an immigrant, you come to a different place, you just, you don't want to be different. You want to fit in, at least that was my experience. And then I had to kind of find my way back to this country. And so this film finally, I feel like solidify that. I mean, there's so many things to talk about in this film from religious freedom, immigration, ways to discipline a child. Yeah. Cultures, meshing. What are we supposed to take away? Well, I think, hopefully, if one thing, the need that we have currently for compassion and the lack, the lack that we're experiencing, certainly in this country. And tolerance for each other, you know, and our differences. I mean, yeah. I don't know. We got to this really defensive place, right?

46:24And maybe some of that was earned because we've been pushed that way. We've got a lot right now, like pulling us apart and dividing us. I don't know about you, man, but I ain't getting that muse from Zuckerberg. Sorry. Right. Sorry, Zach. My kids ain't doing that. I love that he uses the word trust. I know. I don't trust him. But anyway, but there's a lot of things dividing us. And I think, you know, there's a lot of nostalgia for this older time. And I wonder, like, where is that coming from? I think I would like to think that part of that nostalgia is about this time where we could meet and sort of have a little bit of a better conversation about, hey, let's ask at least why you feel the way you feel. And just try to hear each other out. And I think the movie ultimately just shows that, you know, we're all flawed. Even if we have the best intentions, we're not perfect at always knowing what's right. And certainly, when it comes to the next generation to kids, we should all just put our egos aside and figure out what's best for them, you know.

47:26I mean, that, yeah. That was... That was one of the more gut-wrenching parts of the film was I was waiting for them to talk to the family before they took this action. But then they believe they took action for the right reasons. Yeah. And that is the challenge is that they believe their intentions to be good. Yeah. And I think a lot... Again, Christian Moongi, the director, you know, has spent a long time. He used to be a journalist. So he went to Norway. He interviewed families. He found different cases. We have a journalist here in the audience. Do you? Oh, boy. And... We were doing question and answers. And this guy, I called on this guy and he immediately opened up his notebook and I said, oh, f***. You might have only answers. That's good. We need more journalists. But please, I interrupt it. Tell me about it. No, no, no, no. It's absolutely... And anyway, he sort of put this film together from all of this research and that again, even though there were the right intentions, it's really easy to judge other people.

48:35And I think what the movie does is it leaves you to make that decision for yourselves. If you look at this family and you go, do they do it? Did they not do it? And what is the right way to raise kids? For me, of course, you would think, right, on a primal feeling, you can't separate a family. But at the same time, a kid doesn't always choose the environment that they're born in. They don't choose the belief systems that we hand to them. And in that way, they are fragile and they are vulnerable. So there are... Both sides, I think, are... make a case. We are projecting on our kids. You know? I get mad when I see a three-year-old wearing a Yankees hat. Until that kid picks the Yankees for themselves. We are projecting on them. And this happens in all regards. Let's talk about language, because that was some fascinating scenes in the film where your character, who in the film speaks Romanian and English, but not Norwegian,

49:36so much was lost in translation, I think, that added to what was happening, the discussion of hitting versus slapping. And I wonder what your experience is being born in Romania, was your first language Romanian, I assume? Yeah. And what is lost in translation when we come over or when the cultures are mixing? Well, I think communication isn't always happening. And obviously, there's a language barrier sometimes. I mean, I think for me, I just didn't want to be different at all. But I also had a sense of shame for being different and for coming from the country that I came. I mean, Romania has a communist history, and that also influenced a lot of, you know, as you see it with this family, but also how I grew up in the sense that I was very fearful to talk about where I was from and to own it. But I think what gets lost is, well, what we used to celebrate in New York City, which was just everyone's differences, you know,

50:42and the different cultures in the mix. Yeah. That doesn't always mean it's operating perfectly. That's the other thing that I always want to share with people. Uncontributable is okay a little bit, but it's messy, and that's okay to be messy. I don't think there's any other way. Yes, yes, yes. It is because we're messy, you know. We're not perfect. But some of us at least are open enough to want to keep getting better. And I think, you know, I wish there was more of that. Yes. Wow, you guys are amazing. Take a slide. They clap after you're done talking all the time. Some people might characterize the themes of this movie as fairly conservative. What's your response to that? Are people overthinking it? No, I mean, I think that's a pretty fair assessment, but that shouldn't necessarily cancel out the issues that, you know, this family is facing,

51:51or that the feelings that they have and the desire that they have to, you know, raise the kids in the best way they can. I think there's probably always, right, on either side, that there needs to be an opening of a door, you know, for sort of more of a back and forth to happen. But when did, I mean, this is one thing, right? Like, when did conservative become so wrong? You know, I guess. I don't, I didn't, you know, I didn't really grow up in that kind of a religious environment. But as long as there's curiosity at least instead of immediate judgment, maybe there's something else there. But, you know, if a family is trying to stay together, we should at least give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they're trying to do it for the right reasons. I think curiosity and empathy are huge. They're hard to just do. Are you ready for a hack? Sure. If we just travel to different places, we immediately become curious and more empathetic.

52:54If I am, yes. It feels good. It feels good. It feels good. Yeah. I just, I wish we had like mandatory, you know, leave for six months or something. You go to a different country, you taste a different food and you go, what the f*** was that? Do you know, it makes you curious about other cultures. I, yeah, I mean in Europe, for instance, you have to learn another language. I mean, they all speak, you know, another language. And I think here we kind of take those things for granted. Our president doesn't even speak one language. There you go. I mean, let's talk about all your roles that you play. Yes. Always. So on an interesting book you have there, just hanging out in the back. In the back? Look at all the art of the asshole, I think it's called. I won't see that. Right. Anyway. Look at all these characters that, oh, I know what you're saying now, sorry. Look at, from Donald Trump and the Apprentice to, in Eitanya, you played the asshole girlfriend white.

53:56You played Tommy Lee with his huge f*** you played. A different man, you know, obviously, Captain American, here you are in Fjord. I mean, what is it? Do you, are you just afraid to be you? What's going on here? I'm, well, I am in therapy. And it seems to be working. I guess I'm still trying to figure out who I am, really. I don't know. I'm drawn to whatever feels like is a subject matter or a character I don't understand. You know, and I try to... Why? Because so many movie stars, TV stars, would want to always look like the star. Right. Project, you know, look, Captain America, that makes sense to me. Some of those characters are pretty unlikable and unpopular. And do you think about likability when you're accepting a character role? No.

54:56Not really anymore. I think I did maybe when I was younger for a little bit, but I don't know. Again, I just, I think, look, I'm in my 40s. I'm at this point now where I feel like the work has to have some kind of purpose and meaning. And yes, I love comfort, but comforts never move me forward. And I guess as long as there's something interesting that I, you know, want to find all the go explore it. I find it inspiring that you do that. Truly. It's great. You're now a father. Yes. But when you shot Fjord, you were not. I was not. I was contemplating it. You were contemplating it. Even though you play a father who clearly loves his kids, which is, I guess that's what acting is. Would you approach the role differently now or do you think differently about the film now that your dad? Well, again, on a, you know, on that, you have kids. I do. Yeah. On that level of your kids being taken away from you and you just sort of have to, and your truth being taken away from you at the same time.

56:02Obviously, you have a visceral reaction. So I think I understand that now. But I think for me, it's just more of the responsibility that I sort of feel outside of myself, you know, about like, what are we doing with this planet and ourselves and the world? What are we leaving for them? You know, I mean, that's kind of where I'm at. But I was always contemplating, how are you? How are you? Good dad? I don't know. I mean, what, what's a good man? You know, like, I had certain examples. I mean, you know, some of those examples are modeled, you know, are in this character that I played in this movie. I don't know if they're the right examples. There were some good things, but no one's perfect, like I said. I mean, this character is very cautious in sharing emotion. Right. And I wondered if you pulled that from your own life and the men you had in your life. I don't know, you know, your dad or your stepdad. But I mean, this, I was waiting for this character to blow up.

57:02Right. And it was so nuanced the way you played it. Was that part of it? Yeah, I think so. I think Christian's movies are always very almost documentary-style in the sense that they're so real. And in life, we often think of that moment that we're going to have this moment and that reaction. But it's not like that, you know, and people don't always have the tools to express fully how they feel. Men, particularly from that part of the world, as I've seen them, Eastern Europe, are very, I would say, rather, disappointingly sometimes limited in the way that they can communicate, because they're not raised. We don't have that. No one's telling you that it's okay if you show your emotion or you're thought you're weak, you know. So I thought that was just the reality of what this character's limitations were. I can tell you've been doing therapy, just by the way you talked about that. I don't want to do therapy talk, but... Fjord exemplifies all of, you know, what's happening in the world where these cultures are clashing, immigration.

58:08It's possible this movie could receive blowback from Romanians, Norwegians, Christians, and progressives. And I wonder almost if that's kind of the beauty of it. Isn't that good that everyone is going to be disagreeing and arguing? Yeah, I mean, come on, it's like the roses aren't... ...perfect. I mean, I'm just saying like it's this idea that we have, right? But we have to keep fighting, I think, in hopefully healthy way for the things that we can aspire to be. I mean, I think the movie, hopefully, plays into some things that we have to get closer to. You know, if there are any knee jerk reactions, I always feel like that's just a truth that's not explored, right? But we are projecting a lot on each other at the moment, and we should at least just be mindful that maybe we might be wrong sometimes. I like that. You know what? Different people could go see this movie together. Yes. There we go. How about that?

59:08Thank you so much for talking to us. No one opens and literally leaves October 9th before standing nationwide. Sebastian Stan! At ZockDock, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor. Sorry, that doctor's not a network. Press one for more options. You've reached us outside normal business hours. The next availability is in three months. But ZockDock makes finding the right doctor easy. Download the app and search by specialty, insurance, and availability. Read real patient reviews. Then book instantly. ZockDock, ready to be seen? Your credit card company is hoping you don't hear this. They're charging you 21% APR interest, making it hard to pay down your balance. A home equity loan from Rocket Mortgage could cut your interest rate by more than half. So you could wipe out your high interest credit card debt with the equity you've built in your home. Without touching your current mortgage rate, see how much you could save.

1:00:10At rocketmortgage.com, rocketmortgage LLC, license, and 50 states. NMLS consumer access.org, number 3030. Call 804 rocket for full program details. My guest tonight is an Emmy nominated and Golden Globe winning actor and author of the best-selling memoir fictional selves. Please welcome Kyle McLaughlin! You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my god. This is great. Look. I feel like I'm a correspondent now. You're welcome. You're welcome. I'd love to have you as a correspondent. I'll come on. What do I do? What do I do? You have done enough stuff in your career. I've done a career. Actually, there was no corresponding at the Daily Show in this book. But man, thank you for writing this memoir. It is open. Yes. Your successes are in here. Your failures are in here. Yep.

1:01:10Yep. And one of the things I found most fascinating was your debut into Hollywood. You're at a local theater in Seattle. Yes. You get plucked out of there to star in Dune. Yes. David Lynch's Dune in 1984. Yes. How the f***. How the f***. How the f***. That's what happened. Well, I'll tell you, there was a plan. No, no, it was crazy. You know, this book was so important to me when I was a kid. Right. I started reading about 15. I read it every year. Dune books. Yeah. I really, really knew the book well. So I get a call on my entering machine and my little apartment in Seattle that this casting agent is coming to Seattle and she would like to meet me for this role of Paul in Dune. And I'm like, someone's pranking me. Yeah, exactly. This is not right. This can't happen. I met her downtown in a hotel, not what you think. We did. We did. We did see out in LA. Exactly. She put me on tape, but did a couple scenes. She showed them to David in Los Angeles and they said,

1:02:11do you bring him down? We'd like to meet him. And they paid for my flight to LA. Right. That was pretty good. That was pretty good. That was good, right there. So I'm winning from that point on, right? I mean, they made action figures of you. Yes, they did. You were on billboards. Yes. And lunch boxes. And lunch boxes. Yeah. Okay. They're excited, but it failed. Yes, it did. I mean, I don't want to say it failed, but it didn't turn out to be what we, everyone thought it. Right. The expectations were pretty high. You had a multi-inch. You already had five-tracked for sequels. Yeah, five dunes I was going to do. Three non-dune pictures. Wow. It was large. Yes. And yeah, the movie came out about a week later. They called and said, all right, no more dune pictures. I'm like, okay, great. And maybe we'll do a non-dune option picture. I was like, okay, whatever. Yeah, that was kind of a wake-up call. What's your perspective on that now? I mean, you now know the business inside and out. Yeah.

1:03:11But that is such a strange place to start. It was such an odd place to start. Yeah. The thing that was probably the most difficult was when I signed the contract, they said, oh, by the way, you can't work in a movie or a television show until the movie comes out. So we've wrapped in 1983, September of 1983. The movie didn't come out until December of 1984. Right. So I got a large chunk of time where I'm not doing anything. Yeah. And, you know, had I had the opportunity, I could have done maybe a movie or two or a show or something that would have then kind of kept it going after dune collapse. But one of the things you did do was you didn't know how to ride a motorcycle, but you bought one and you took a trip across different countries. You have done your research, my good friend. At one point you ran out of gas and then someone said, well, you know about your reserve tank, right? And you said, what are you talking about? I don't know. What are actors supposed to do with this time? Well, that's it. That's it. You can't work anywhere else. No. I did a play for a couple of months. Well, that's a couple of months. Yeah.

1:04:11So I decided I would travel through Europe. So, yeah, I went and I'd Trevor taught me a little bit about how to ride a dirt bike on the back lot of dune. So I go to Slau, outside London, and I buy a motorcycle there from Sid Morham's Comp Shop. I don't think it's there anymore. And I jump on the bike. I don't know how to start it. Right. I get on it because he has a kick start, right? Right. And I was like, and that's why I kind of look around and I pretend I know I see you, there's a button there. I wonder what this does. So I pushed that. That was it. Yeah. So I figured it out. Just for young people out there, this is not how you should learn to ride a motorcycle. This is not. Yeah. Yeah. Don't do as I do or as I say. Right. But yeah. Even though dune was a, you know, it didn't turn out to be what you wanted to do. The buckle. That's okay. You can say it. No, no. It did establish this very important relationship for you with the iconic director David Lynch. Yes. And, you know, you're, you're very honest in the book about you kind of were tethered to him in ways that you appreciated

1:05:11and maybe ways you didn't, especially as you were starting out your career. Yeah. Yeah. I know you, I know you don't like explaining David Lynch to talk show hosts. But can you explain him to you? Yes, yes. We've got, how much time do we have? The good. He, first of all, he was a very good friend. Yeah. A very good friend. And as you said, one of the great directors of our time, if not all time. And we had just an extraordinary working relationship and a friendship together. Yeah. But you're right. And when I was doing Twin Peaks, I became so identified with this character, with this role, that I was feeling like, you know what, I need to kind of break out of this a little bit. And which I did, ultimately. But it put a little bit of a strain on the relationship when we were filming Fire Walk with Me. And so there was a period of time there where we, you know, we were, we were always friends and always friendly, but there was a little bit of tension. Yeah. Which just over time washes away.

1:06:11And to the point where when I, when he came back and he decided he was going to do the return, Twin Peaks the return, I was so excited to get back in the suit. I couldn't wait. Right. Because I got to get back in the suit. And I got to also play the crazy, Dougie Jones with the piece. Yeah, you're colored. You're talking about, you're talking about Twin Peaks the return. Yes, exactly. You're playing Dougie Jones. You're playing Dougie Jones. Special agent Cooper. And then, Annie Maddie, Carolyn and Mr. C, I call Mr. C, who was a psychopath. Do you get paid three times? Is your, I mean, you're playing. There is an argument to be made for that. I was just going to say, let's back it up to when Twin Peaks debuted. Oh my God. Because this was not, you didn't, you say in the book, we didn't even think this pilot would go any way. This was insanity. Yeah. Six episodes. Yeah. 35 million people watched the first episode. Yeah. That's hard to even comprehend. Yeah. It's, it's a, it was a different era, of course. And people, there was an expectation, there was a drum beat, there was a buzz about this pilot.

1:07:16And it had such huge numbers to start off with. People were, because they'd never seen anything like it before. Yeah. This was, this was a TV show that was shot like a film, cinematic. It had music that was unusual, different, unexpected, and television. It had performances. Yeah. That were very strange and sort of hard to follow. And people just ate it up. They loved it. And then, when let me watch a lot of TV. And she would say, no, you can't watch Mary with children. No, you can't watch MTV. I remember asking her, can I watch Twin Peaks? And she said, I'm not sure yet. And that was like, that's so classic, David. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah. We don't even know what it is we're watching at this point. Yeah, yeah. I like your mom. That's cool. She's great. That's cool. She's watching, Jan, how you doing? Again. I see it. Fictional selves, you know, there's this internal battle you have with maybe the other Kyle who wants you to be kind of the, is it a Tom Cruisey belt-er-leading man? Yeah, you're a belt-er-leading man.

1:08:16Yeah, what's wrong with that? What can't you sort of step into that? So he's constantly berating me. Okay. But I do feel like we all have this, I don't know, inter-critic maybe, or someone that's always, you know, that, depending upon the time of day. I find during the day, I'm pretty good. He stays pretty quiet. Three o'clock in the morning when I wake up, and I can't sleep. I'm like, well, there he is, right there. Looking right at me, telling me what you're wrong. He's still active. Oh, you're still active. And, you know, part of what I found fascinating is how you navigated your career. And it's hard to know when your young man and how he would, you don't know what the hell's going on. You really, I didn't. You have a relationship maybe with one director, but you want to have other, but are you happy with how it ended up? Do you wish you were more, I mean, I can't say you're not a leading man, but I can't say you haven't done supporting roles also. No, and you've carved your own situation. I have. I have, and you're right. I am. I'm pretty content about that. It takes, you know, it took time. It took 40 years I've been doing this, you know.

1:09:17But, yeah, I know, right? Get serious. I tapped you, man, 40 years. But, yeah, I am. I'm really, I've been incredibly lucky. You know, with age comes gratitude, or it should come. Yeah. And so I look back and I really can't believe I'm here. I can't believe I'm sitting with you here on a daily show. It's a stretch for me too. It is. It is. That's the coolest part of my job is I get to talk to such. This week, I've talked to Aaron Sorkin, Sebastian Stan, and now Calma Glock. Isn't that cool? That's awesome. That's cool. So that's very cool. Yeah, two of my favorites. That's great. Yeah, great. I loved how you shared in Desperate Housewives. You wanted your co-stars, Marsha Cross, told you that you tend to undercut your performance. Yeah, my power. You sometimes run from your power. And that really connected with me. And yet also on Desperate Housewives, you kind of advocated for yourself to be in more episodes. Is that right? Yeah, I did. I went to Mark Cherry, who was a creator. And I said, early on, I said, because I got to say, working with Marsha Cross was just magical.

1:10:22She's such an extraordinary actress and a wonderful person. And I said, I would like to keep doing this, because I knew my arc, my arc was supposed to end at the end of the season. I was going to be the killer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I went to him, and I said, can I, can I, is there a way we can massage this so that I can maybe stay around a little longer? And that's when he brought in Dixie Carter to play my mom. Got it. Another mother's son, because sex in the city, we know all about that. Yeah. That's all about that. Yeah, yeah. But that's a confidence for you to advocate for yourself. Would you have done that early on your career? I don't think so. Yeah. But it was in the moment, it was kind of the moment it just sort of occurred to me and I said, I'm going to ask if I, this, I'm going to ask this, it's not going to be in a favor, it just isn't even possible. Right. And Mark said, let me think about it, and I kind of fully expected it not to happen. And he came back and said, we found a way to keep you around, and I was so happy. What, what did it mean to you when someone said you're running from your power? I mean, do you make changes? It was just interesting to hear. How did you internalize it? I kind of knew, I think I knew that I sort of, you know, and it's been that way since I was a little kid, it's like I go to comedy first.

1:11:26I want to make people laugh, I want to, you know, be the, hey, it's all right, it's good, you know, I'll make it work. Yeah. So when I played the Mr. C character to go back to that, who is not that, at all. Right. I really had to, that was the actor digging in pretty deep and finding something inside here that was like, oh, I see where it is. Yeah. And have, and experiencing that is the character. And also recognizing this is something that's sort of like, kryptonite, you know what I'm saying? It's like, this is something that you bring in and you do it, and then at the end of the day, you put it here, and you say, okay, I'm gonna, I'll see you tomorrow. But you're not coming home with me. Yes. Very powerful. Let's talk about Sex in the City, Tray McDougall from Sex in the City. Yeah. You make it very clear in the book, the character is impotent, but Kyle is not. Exactly. Thank you, Michael. You know, while we're talking about it, I am not impotent either. I just want to go on the record. I didn't really have a question about that. No, that's okay.

1:12:26But we got to talk about showgirls. We cleared that up. Sure we can talk about showgirls. You, yeah. So you saw that during your formative years. I'm not talking about formative. That's how I know I'm not impotent. There you go. That's the story we don't want to hear. Honestly. You write about it as if it was like this thing that you had to run away from. Oh my god. And you were embarrassed to even go to the screening of it. Yeah. Yet it's kind of found it's footing now. Totally. What is that like? I mean, you know, it's entertainment, right? Right. We make entertainment. So I said, well, it wasn't necessarily what they intended to do. Right. But it's turned out to be pretty fun, you know? Yes. And, you know, when I was a young man and you got to see my butt, so what the hell? You know what I'm saying? It lives on in posterity. That's great. You have a wine label. I do. Pursued by bear. Yes. And I always, I'm curious how actors, I feel like it's important for actors to have other things they do because there is so much waiting around. Was that the strategy with wine or? It was kind of more, I come from the Pacific Northwest and from Eastern Washington.

1:13:28This is where the wine world has sort of taken hold since 1975. And I've always really enjoyed wine. I thought, you know, maybe there's a way I can engage in this world and honestly bring my dad who was sort of getting older and I wasn't seeing him that much. I said, you know, this is something he might enjoy. I'll go up there, we'll figure this out. The developer label will start a wine company. So that's what we did, 2005. And it's called Pursued by Bear, which is a reference to a Shakespearean play, my day job. And it has been just what's such a wonderful journey. And I'm heavily involved and you're right. It's a way to step away from the business, do something completely different. And yet, you're creating something that you want to share with someone. Like, you know, you do a film and move your brain to share that. You know, this is wine, we can share that and enjoy it together. Plus, it's a lot classier if you're drinking too much wine if you own the label. Yeah. You know, do something that you do well. Yeah, I see that. That's what I'm saying. I love this book. I love fictional selves. You know, actors should read this, but everyone should read it.

1:14:29It's a great journey. How would you say your fictional Kyle would judge how you did in this interview? Pretty good. I think so too. Pretty good. Thank you so much for being with us here in the best fictional selves. You'll be able to now check out his podcast. What are we even doing? Kyle McLaughlin. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the Daily Show Weekdights at 11. 10 Central on Comedy Central. And stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. Finding a doctor is hard enough. Finding the right doctor even harder. Someone who takes your insurance has an available appointment when you need one and feels like someone you can actually open up to. That's where Zock.com's in. Download the Zock.com app to search and compare doctors by specialty, insurance, and availability. Read real-patient reviews. Find the right fit for you and book instantly.

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