The Case of Joseph Duggar: The Arkansas Charges

0:00I'm Anya, and today we're going to be talking about the Arkansas charges facing reality television figures Joseph and Kendra Dugger. This episode contains discussion of the sexual abuse of children. Okay, so today on the murder sheet, March 25th, 2026, we are going to be once again returning to the subject of 31-year-old Joseph Dugger and 27-year-old Kendra Dugger. These are two reality TV stars. They both appeared on the TLC series, 19 Kids Encounting, or at least Joseph did, and then counting on. And Joseph Dugger is the seventh of 19 children born to Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger. These are his parents. And these are folks who, you know, again have been subject of much reality TV series and discussions and very well known for having a large family, having, you know, kind of adhering to some fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

1:02And what's happened recently is that we're seeing echoes of the past because Joseph Dugger, who was married to Kendra Dugger, they have four children together. He was recently arrested on charges stemming from child sexual abuse that occurred in Florida. But he and his wife are also both facing charges in Arkansas where they're from as well. So today we're going to unpack the Arkansas charges and sort of see what we can see about those. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenley. I'm an attorney. And this is the murder sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reported interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet. And this is the case of Joseph Dugger, the Arkansas charges.

2:31So to remind everyone, as I mentioned, Joseph Dugger and him specifically, he is facing charges around child sexual abuse allegedly an incident that occurred between him and a nine year old girl in 2020 in Bay County, Florida in Panama city beach. And yeah, it's a horrible charge certainly has echoes of his older brother Josh, the oldest child in the Dugger family getting busted for child sexual abuse materials charges and also a scandal involving him where he was never charged, but where he was accused of touching multiple girls as a teenager inappropriate sexual touching molesting them in other words. And yeah, this is a very troubling story, but I think it's a necessary story to cover and look at because it is a glimpse into how these kind of child molestation type cases can work.

3:40And we're also seeing something interesting where there's two cases at this point. There's one in Florida and then there's separate charges in Arkansas that do not have anything directly to do with the sexual abuse incident that occurred allegedly in 2020. So what what we're going to get into like why that is so let's go into the timeline because I think that helps break it down best. On Wednesday, March 18, 2026 police in Arkansas went out to to basically arrest Joseph Dugger and that was based on a warrant issued from Bay County, Florida. And they charged him with lured and then that that count warrant from Florida charged him with lured and a list of his behavior for the molestation of a victim less than 12 years old and lured in a list of his behavior conducted by a person 18 years or older. So he's he's 31 now he would have been well over 18 when this alleged incident occurred as a recap.

4:47From the statement issued by Bay County authorities, the Bay County Sheriff's Office, it sounds like the now 14 year old victim divulged what happened to her possibly somewhat recently and that her father confronted Joseph on it on a phone call with police detectives and Joseph admitted to some of this whether or not he knew there were police detectives on the phone. I don't know we don't really know a lot of details of this point, but that's what happened so he's arrested for that that's the Florida charges. Then as a result of this arrest, the Arkansas Department of Human Services and the tawny town police department tawny town being seemingly word Joseph is located. They're involved in a search of their home on March 19th day after his arrest so Joseph and Kendra live in a home that is searched March 19th skip to March 20th around 5 p.m. officials in Arkansas filed additional charges against Joseph and Kendra because of that investigation that occurred on the 19th.

5:52And they both were hit with four counts of endangering the welfare of a minor in the second degree and four counts of false imprisonment in the second degree. And that day Mr. that day Joseph also waved his right to an extradition hearing in Arkansas, which is means he's going to be likely extradited from Washington County Arkansas to from the detention center there to Bay County Florida. There's been a lot of speculation about what the basis of those new Arkansas charges was. In other words, what were they accused of doing that constituted endangering the welfare and false imprisonment? Yeah, I think it's notable that they have four children and they have four charges for each of these crimes. Yeah, that doesn't seem like a coincidence. No, and so I think I think what would be helpful is reading directly from the Arkansas code and looking into how they define criminal offenses and then we can go into an exclusive report from people magazine that may be shedding some light on it at least as far as people close to the family are saying.

7:03So Arkansas code defines endangering the welfare of a minor in the second degree as one as quote one a person commits the offense of endangering the welfare of a minor in the second degree if he or she knowingly engages in conduct creating a substantial risk of serious harm to the physical or mental welfare of another person known by the person to be a minor. So in other words, let me just explain this to myself. If I do something that I know creates a risk to a child, then I'm guilty of this offense. Is that basically what that's saying? Yeah, that seems to you what it's saying. And there's a second part to it. Quote to as used in the section serious harm to the physical or mental welfare means physical or mental injury that causes a protracted disfigurement be protracted impairment of physical or mental health or see loss or protracted impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ be endangering the welfare of a minor in the second degree is a class a misdemeanor end quote.

8:12Okay, can you as an attorney break down a little bit more granularly what some of that means? Okay, so it's the first thing was your guilty of this offense. If you do something that you know might create a risk of hurting somebody you know to be a child. And then in the second part their lawyers love to define things and the second part is a definition of what does it basically mean to hurt someone and it says what you hurt someone if you disfigure them or if you have if you do something that impairs their physical or mental health. That's a pretty broad definition. A lot of things could fall into that category. The other one is loss or protracted impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ so I guess if you like break someone's arm or something is going to break someone's arms.

9:12But I think the key part of the definition is be protracted impairment of physical mental health because almost anything that you or I could think of that could potentially be considered harm to a minor could fall into that category. That makes sense. It's a very broad definition that covers a lot of different behavior. There you go. And so that's that's the first set of four charges. The second set of four charges is false imprisonment in the second degree. Let's define that quote a person commits the offense of false imprisonment in the second degree if without consent and without lawful authority. The person knowingly restrains another person so as to interfere substantially with the other person's liberty be false imprisonment is in the second degree is a class a misdemeanor. And quote so that one also seems you know pretty simple. How to define that I guess like if I I guess if I had knowingly lock somebody in a room and don't let them leave or if I

10:22don't know like. Yeah, I guess like handcuffs someone to a something in that like they're not allowed to leave that would be false imprisonment. Yeah. And it's not like a citizen's arrest is just me being a jerk. For some reason I'm doing this. So yeah, so that's that's that's that you know and listen these kind of laws they don't really give us a full picture but some reporting from people magazine does look into this little bit more we're going to get to that. But before we even move on further I want to note what is a class a misdemeanor what does that mean in Arkansas and in Arkansas my understanding is that class a misdemeanors are the most serious misdemeanors they're more significant and more serious than class b or class c misdemeanors. And that means that they carry the most substantive sentence which I believe is a year in jail. A year in yeah and possibly a fine up to 2500 dollars.

11:23So these are the more serious ones but they're still misdemeanors they're not felonies. Yes and let me before we leave the topic of these charges let me make another obvious point. Endangering someone creating a situation where someone is at risk of being harmed that's obviously different than a situation where someone has definitely been harmed. So they're not in these charges these charges aren't saying the children were definitely harmed they're saying the children were put in a situation where they were at risk of being harmed. That's fair to say that's a very good point that's a very good point it's more of like what could happen versus what is literally happening. So more information on these charges I did some digging I actually asked around I reached out to the Washington County prosecutors at prosecuting attorney's office because I wanted to know are you guys handling these are you the organization that is going to prosecute these and I was told no.

12:26The reason for that is that if they're misdemeanors so these will be handled by the city of tawny town seemingly this maybe the city court city attorney who would be prosecuting these I was told that if things should be upgraded to felonies that is when Washington County will step in. But in the meantime no there because they are misdemeanors Kendra Dugger who again is facing some of these charges was released on a $1,470 bond from the Washington County detention center around 6 p.m. on Friday evening so seemingly shortly after she was taken in and Joseph Dugger remains in custody obviously because he is facing extradition to Florida and yeah so she so Kendra Dugger is out. Let's go into what people was able to uncover people seemingly spoke to a spokesperson for the Dugger family and you know people close to the family are able to provide some of that information about what's going on there and these people magazine.

13:30Yes not people on the street yes so that spokesperson told people that Kendra's charges are not related to the sexual abuse charges. They're just simply they're clarifying that simply stemming from that investigation into their home that source also told people that Kendra. This is the quote that they said quote I can tell you the arrest was a result of a home inspection and the door locks being on the exterior of the doors and quote and quote she's not suspected or accused of participating in his alleged crime and quote. So what they're saying is essentially what it sounds like is that. Door locks are put on the exterior of the doors and I would imagine given the four counts of child endangerment that those would be in rooms you know possibly the bedrooms of the four children that Joseph and Kendra Dugger share. Does that sound like a reasonable.

14:32Jump to make. Yeah it sounds like that certainly fits the definition you've just read in the charges even if the kids share a bedroom and it's like one lock it would apply to four different kids so it could still be four charges yes. And if you're saying well false imprisonment well we're locking the kids in the room that would certainly seem to fit the definition of false imprisonment. And if you're talking about endangering the welfare of minors you could also argue that that fits this is well because if if you have children locked in a room whether you're punishing them. Or what have you let's say the obvious thing that comes to mind let's say there is a fire the kids would not be able to escape the fire. If there's like a key you need to unlock the doors maybe like firemen or rescuers wouldn't be able to come in and rescue them that's just an extreme scenario off the top of my head.

15:39I think it is possible that if you are locking children in a room for no good reason you are potentially creating danger and risk for them. Yeah I was I was a bit surprised I didn't know this was illegal enough with over complicating your wardrobe stop buying trendy cheap stuff that doesn't last curate your style with high quality pieces that you can mix and match our wonderful sponsor quince can help you out with that. They are all about accessible luxury these are the premium every day essentials that you can wear all the time even as the seasons change. We love their comfortable lightweight mongolian cashmere sweaters their perfect for spring we're also excited to try out their linen bottoms and shorts and European jersey linen t-shirts not only will you be getting high quality clothing for less. It's also important to know the quince only pairs with ethical factories and artisans the set rigorous standards for craftsmanship they save you money by cutting out the middleman.

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20:13You know people thrown out the word abusive it's usually considered something that's not what is good for a child development and sense of fostering safety. Now i do acknowledge that you know i'm sure there's in any situation there's probably situations where parents are struggling. And maybe a child might be doing some unsafe things when they're getting out at night maybe there's some different circumstances different situations and i'm not certainly trying to cast aspersions on parents who might be struggling with a unique situation but i also am noting that like generally it's not considered. A great thing to do primarily because of the safety concern of what you said like if there's a fire and i'm going to get into that actually because of some cases i found in Arkansas that reflect that but there's that issue and then i just think with the there's also like the psychological. Effect of that making a child feel like a prisoner in a home rather than you know someone who's just living there I think that can be something that people feel is it can be just very damaging to a child and i would like to think no one wants to.

21:27Hurt their children you know and but if people are doing something because you know they that's how they grew up or they're used to it there can be cycles of that that become very problematic. But anyways that's what seemingly this is all about obviously that's not directly related to the sexual alleged sexual abuse incident that occurred in 2020 but still something that authorities in Arkansas felt was a problem certainly. Certainly now what people said was that Kendra and Joseph could be facing up to eight years in prison for these charges and thousands of dollars and fines. Can you tell me Kevin why it's like it's very unlikely that seemingly Kendra does not have a criminal record. Why would be unlikely that she would get one year per count here so four and four eight eight years that's what they're doing the math on so she's facing up to eight years can you tell us why that's technically true while although while it's very unlikely that that would come to pass.

22:35Yeah it's technically true because that is the maximum penalty that you would have to serve if you get convicted on everything and the sentences are stacked. But realistically that's not going to happen as you so aptly noted she is a first time offender she might be able to say I didn't know this was against the law. You just said you didn't know was against the law maybe maybe she didn't know it's against the law to be clear I didn't know is against the law but I would never do it and I think it's wrong. I just want to say that that's my personal injection into this I'm not excusing it I just didn't know that was specifically against the law it's my understanding that spanking isn't really even against the law in many places I thought there was you know I guess I sort of figured it was something more like that where it's like a disciplinary thing that maybe a lot of people say hey this isn't a good thing to do but not necessarily illegal. But yeah first time offender it's not a violent offense I would be surprised if they they chose to throw the book at her.

23:46Seems very unlikely that they would you have you know you have the opportunity for a prosecutor to try to go for eight years but. My view is prosecutorial discretion would almost certainly say that that's not going to happen also as you absolutely pointed out earlier you know we don't know the situation are these four locks on four doors is it two locks on two doors boys versus girls those two boys and two girls and the kids and or is it. Um you know what's the combination because then it might be even harder to argue that these are separate incidents if there's less than four doors does that make sense because it's like oh no I mean secondly it's only two so. I mean it seems unlikely I would imagine something like this would not necessarily even lead to jail time now class a misdemeanor as we said it's the most serious of the misdemeanors so I would imagine there might be some certainly fines but this seems like the sort of thing that may be worked out in a plea deal. Those things can can happen and frankly most things are worked out in a deal versus a trial so um you know that might be something where she pays a certain fine to avoid jail time please guilty to it agrees not to do it again it's just difficult I mean listen we're speculating it's difficult to say how anything will play out or what the what you know what will happen with these Arkansas charges.

25:12But I do think that um you know it's when when I see people magazines saying she's facing up to eight years they're not wrong I'm not correcting them but it just seems unlikely that that would be the case. It can be difficult for prosecutors to stack charges if there's not a good argument to do so as far as them being separate incidents and again yeah so I don't know. I don't know one thing I've been trying to figure out is where exactly do um Kendra and Joseph live it's been a bit confusing I've seen I recall that in the show I believe they were gifted some kind of home on the dugger family compound I don't know if that's where they're still in residence or what's going on with that or do they own the home or do they move I don't know. I don't know so I'm not sure where exactly all this is taking place or how close it is to the duggers.

26:16Um people have pointed out though oh actually no so here I'm going to get I'm going to get back to the duggers in the end but I would like to talk about some cases I found of child and a end danger in the welfare of a minor. That kind of at least echoed this although I will admit that each of these cases is significantly more severe. In terms of the outcome as far as we know it's not been reported that Joseph and Kendra's children were found living in abject squalor and filth right I guess anything's possible but that's certainly not out there so I'm not going to assume that's the case. So let's go to the log cabin Democrat the May 25th 1993 issue and I talked about it a little rock Arkansas case where the state supreme court upheld a conviction of endangering the welfare of a minor and first degree murder. This involved a woman named Francis Watson of little rock she was charged after a 19 of sorry a September 24th 1988 fire killed one of two children who she had locked in her attic.

27:23And this was Anthony Scott and Daniel Torrick Scott died unfortunately Daniel Torrick was rescued by Rita Wilson Francis's daughter. But then two years later he had to have his leg imitated after he was scalded by boiling water when he was seven years old that's horrible that's horrifying. And this was a whole debate where she was almost like well they're not really my kids and I didn't really like. Have them legally so I shouldn't have to take care of them I should just be able to lock them in an attic and then one of them dies in a fire I mean why not so yeah understandably the Arkansas state Supreme Court was like no. Obviously that's a more extreme case because a child died as a result of that but it can show the dangers of having kids locked up in a house if there's an emergency situation. So the Times record the February 6 2020 2005 edition talks about a fort Smith Arkansas case this is involving a woman named Malika Shamar Hamilton 26 years old at the time.

28:33Lisa went to her house at 130 in the morning and they found three children ages five seven and eight locked in a bedroom and the bedroom was locked from the outside. These kids had no access to the bathroom telephone water food there's no adult in the apartment or home or whatever and they had been tipped off by a relative of the kids who was saying hey this woman is locking her kids up. This happened the kids claim that this had happened three times and Hamilton was found and arrested at the one one zero two two clubs so she went out to the club locking her three children in a room with no bathroom and no food and no adult supervision so. Yeah she was hit with three counts of endangering the welfare of a minor in the first degree. So I would imagine that the first degree Kevin would be probably more. More stringent or more serious circumstances is that yeah first degree was certainly suggest it more of a level of intent necessarily and so talk about that with the intent like what what does that why does that matter.

29:38If you realize intent basically makes things worse because you know what you're doing and you're specifically doing it in order to cause damage or harm it's not an accident is not something you do in the heat of a moment is suggest there's been some deliberate deliberation you've taken time to think about it before you've done it. And accordingly the endangering a welfare of a minor in the first degree is a class D felony so that's where it goes into a felony charge as a versus a class a misdemeanor i'm going to read out what first degree in miles from the code quote a person commits the offense of endangering what the welfare of a minor in the first degree if being a parent guardian person legally charged with care custody of a minor or a person charged with the supervision of a minor he or she purposely won. Engages in conduct creating a substantial risk of death or serious physical injury to a minor or two desserts a minor less than 10 years old under circumstances creating a substantial risk or death or serious physical injury be endangering the welfare of a minor in the first degree is a class D felony.

30:54See it is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this section that apparent voluntarily delivered a child to or left the child with or in or voluntarily arranged for another person to deliver a child to and leave the child with or in a medical provider law enforcement agency fire department or a newborn safety device. End quote so it's actually what is saying there is that a first degree offense is risk of death which is certainly stronger than the risk you read earlier for second degree you might get hurt versus you might die yeah right. So there's a but they also say purposely to um so there is there is a bit of an intent situation going on is not so much intent is what I was saying it was actually more of the level of harm is lose how I read that keep my I'm not an expert on Arkansas law okay well I mean that but what you're saying is very helpful in a make sense so.

31:55The last and the last of the three cases I was able to dig up the log county the log cabin Democrat again this time July 25th 2018 Conway Arkansas police find a they're called by neighbors and find a three year old boy playing near a busy thoroughfare wearing only a diaper and shoes he's filthy and then they go to his house and there's a five year old boy leaving out the window also filthy saying the toddler pushed out the window and ran off. And they get there they find the children have been barricaded in the room blocked the two doors blocked by a large pressure and then the other one locked from the opposite side and they also find a two year old baby girl in a crib also filthy. Their mother rose margolus came out and starts yelling at the cops because obviously it's their fault and gets arrested and then the grandfather's also in the house Timothy Welch and they're both taking the adults are taking the county jail and suspicion of child endangerment. So obviously all those keys are pretty extreme but it's giving you a bit of an idea of you know why this is also again the law.

33:04So let's talk about the Dougher's family history with locking kids in rooms because this is something that's really actually been discussed as a result of this people remember when the Josh Dugger scandal first hit when it was revealed that he had sexually abused his some of his sisters as well as. A family friend and people are kind of looking back on this and saying okay this was kind of something that maybe there was some indication that this might have been happening earlier. And my sources for this are there two interviews done by Megan Kelly formerly of Fox News she had exclusive interviews with both Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger. Joseph's parents as well as Jill and Jess a Dugger his sisters and those aired on June 3rd 2015 and June 5th 2015 I think. And it was part of Fox News is the Kelly file which was on at the time. So I'm going to read some excerpts from that that I found interesting I'll read the the second one first this is with Jill and Jess a Dugger again these are I believe Joseph's older sisters some two of the 19 children.

34:13And two of the stars of counting on which was the show that was kind of reformed after 19 kids and council was canceled and then of course counting on was also canceled because of Josh because it was canceled after his arrest for child sexual abuse charges. So Megan Kelly asks what were the safeguards that were put into place to make sure and quote she's asking specifically about like safeguards to make sure Josh wouldn't sexually abuse you and children in the household after he got back. And Jill says quote not being alone my parents said okay we're not going to do this hide and seek thing where two people go off and hide together. And Jessi adds not babysitting girls Kelly says at night in your room locked and Jill says locks on the doors you know everybody's in bed girls in the girls room boys in the boys room. Yeah they just and as a mother now I look back and I think you know my parents did such an amazing job for me even when we went through the DHS investigation they complimented my parents on one amazing job they did through that process and good.

35:21So she's revealing locks on the doors in order to keep Josh in or out seemingly it's not quite clear to me based on this what's exactly happening are there other girls locked in are they both locked in. You know and how is that working exactly is is a are the girls able to get themselves out but just Josh can come in like I just don't I mean like you know what what's going on. It's not clear to me Josh locked in. They just say locks on the doors when it when it comes to the girls so it's a bit unclear not clear to me who's exactly locked in and who was the power to exit versus enter is it just that there's a lock on the inside so that Josh himself can get in but maybe the parents can but the girls can get out or as a situation where everyone's being locked in their bedroom at night. Yeah it's I don't know it's very it's more questions than it answers it does and they're also talking about how you know they don't want essentially.

36:23Boy and girls siblings you know brothers and sisters to be able to kind of go off and do hide and seek games because that might be a pretext for. Sexual abuse now I think even more telling is the interview with Jim Bob and Michelle this was again with Megan Kelly. And well interestingly enough in the little teaser for this they talked about like they had a clip from the show and they talked about Joseph's jurisdiction being to take out the trash because all the kids had like specific chore for themselves. So so this is a this is what Jim Bob and Michelle claim happened with Josh again there's echoes of the Joseph situation with some of this. And they say that Josh was actually the one who came to them to confess what he had been doing to his sisters and a family friend. And and then Jim Bob says interestingly enough quote nothing ever happened like that again in the girls bedrooms after that so we had safeguards that protected from them from that.

37:37But there was another incident where a two different instance incidents where girls were like laying on the couch and it was and he had touched them over the couch and actually touched their breasts while they were asleep. And so yeah over their clothes and so it was a very difficult situation but we've talked to other parents in different ones since then a lot of families have said they've had similar things happen in their families end quote. So he's saying that Josh tells them what he's doing and then he stops doing those things in the girls bedrooms but he keeps doing them to he keeps touching them inappropriately just not in the bedrooms. What strikes you about Jim Bob's language around some of this. He seems at one point he says oh this is not rape or anything like that this was touching somebody over the clothes he generally seems to be minimizing.

38:40He's definitely minimizing it he's absolutely minimizing it and I think we don't even need to just think he made some clumsy word choices here. They minimized it by not seeking a serious intervention immediately and by not doing so promptly it actually victimized other girls because the incidents continued after Josh had apparently disclosed this to his parents. Yes so not only is he minimizing it when talking to Megan Kelly all those years later but at the time they didn't these safeguards didn't work and they actually resulted in more kids being victimized by Josh. So I think that's notable. Yeah they say it's not rape is just touching. He talks about how Josh came to them crying and and this is I just such a telling quote quote then he came to us and was crying and told us what happened and it was after that third time he came to us is where we really felt like you know what we have done everything we can as parents to handle this in house we need to get help and that's actually when we went to outside folks and we asked.

39:49Some very close friends if they could come over some of my best friends came over and we talked about it and so at that point we pulled Josh out of the house. We knew a man who mentored young men and he really helped young men who had made unwise choices in their lives to get straightened out. He was running a little training center in Little Rock Arkansas and under the roof of that training center you had the Little Rock police department on one side and you had a prison minister on the other side and he said Josh could come down there and actually do some construction work with him and he would counsel him and work with him and hopefully get him straightened out. And quote. I would be curious for mental health professionals who are listening is construction work a good and to go to somebody acting out you know sexually abusive actions on their siblings as a teenager. I'm guessing the answer is no you know I'm not saying that that kind of thing can never be helpful to a kid who's going through a hard time but I think. What Josh has was not well served by these actions taken and by the lack of frankly seriousness that his parents put on this situation what are your takes am I being overly harsh here.

41:04I think that I think that's fair by by not handling this more aggressively they created a situation where more people got victimized which obviously caused enormous harm to the victims and it also wasn't the best result for Josh if you've gotten help earlier more aggressively perhaps he would be in a better place today. I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of rehabilitation for teenage boys or young men with the kind of issues that would make them touch a sibling sexually. I don't claim to know can that be rehabilitated what circumstances create the opportunity for rehabilitation or at least mitigation.

42:06I don't claim to know that I'm not an expert I'm not a mental health expert I've heard people say not you know once you're once you're going down that road it's too late you know lock them up and throw away the key I've seen people say no with effective treatment those people can actually. Move on from that and live a normal life I just don't know but either way I think the loving thing to do in that situation for your son is to you know. Get get serious mental health and probably bring in the law and I think that with you also have to be looking at your children who have been victimized and frankly they should come first. Yes I mean that's just my take I'm you know I'm not saying completely abandoned the victimizer because that's also your child and I understand that but. The response should be I think more toward the victims so yeah so that's that's what happened and you know they they do this and.

43:10Megan Kelly ask them some people said why did they wait why didn't they go to the authorities or go to counseling the very first time he came to you. Jim Bob said you know I talk to somebody that worked at one of those juveniles youth sex offender facilities and he described how they actually take care of these situations down there and the success rate is not very good so we felt like going from a perspective of really reaching his heart first would be important and so that's the reason we said down to little rock to work with this man. Megan Kelly asked the legal ever pop into your mind like we have legal obligations Jim Bob says you know what is parents you not mandatory reporters you are the law allows for parents to do what they think is best for their child. So we got him out of the home and we sent him down to this place that was really probably the best decision that we made through the whole process because it was at this place this is the first time Josh has ever been out of the home. Megan Kelly he's 15 at this point should probably said he just turn 15 is at this point that he came to the end of himself and God really worked in his life as a matter of fact he broke and he went and asked God to forgive him.

44:10He went back and asked those he had offended to forgive him we felt like the last jurisdiction of who he needed to make things right was with was with the law. So yeah again there's like this minimization and there's also this kind of like. I think it's it's kind of wild to me that it's like hey did you guys do the right thing well we're not mandatory reporters it's like how do you even know that you know what I mean and also it's your children are being victimized cheese. It just feels like a lot of this is it's it's this family trying to stretch to protect their first born son at the expense of their younger daughters yes. They're choosing him over them I'm sure they didn't feel like that I'm sure you know I'm sure that wasn't a conscious thing it's just the reaction kind of tells you what somebody values. And it wasn't those girls no I don't think so I think all the whole thing is a huge safety risk and listen my heart goes out I listen I think. I think sexual abuse within families by like a disturbed older brother or whatever is probably a little bit more prevalent than any of us like to think because it's very disturbing.

45:19But I understand how agonizing that would be that would be like ripping your heart out because that that victimizer that abuser is somebody's baby to especially if they're still a kid right. I get that it's difficult I'm not trying to just pile on here but I also feel like you really have an obligation to the kids who've been victimized in that situation and I don't feel like that was met here. But it's interesting the locks on the doors thing people I think are talking about like oh Joseph and Kendra like you know they all knew and you know like they they knew that there were other kids who are abusers I think this is more about dealing with Josh. But obviously kind of maybe gave some lessons to the siblings and families in this in this household of like oh we put locks on doors even though it's a safety issue but I don't know it's just sad. They Megan Kelly asked some specifically about like one of the last incidents before they forced Josh out of the house was that the child who was who was assaulted was extremely young.

46:26She said she didn't want to say an age because she didn't want to identify the child but like she said single digits so you know they. You know she's making Kelly says this is not this is not like a licensed therapist somebody a Christian based thing Jim Bob says Christian based but I can tell you what treatments facility. It really had a huge impact on his life and it really that was the turning point is life and this man really reached his heart. Megan Kelly asked what it was like having everybody living under the same roof while they knew this was going on but he'd not been removed yet and Jim Bob said well we tried to make things as normal as we can but also you know Michelle and I were both keeping an eye on Josh you know all the time and watching his behaviors and watching his attitudes. Megan Kelly asked in prior to him leaving where you concerned about the safety of your daughters Michelle said well we definitely put in our home. Jim Bob says yes and we also talk to our daughters and remind them about wrong and right touch and about if anyone ever touched you in a wrong way for you to come until your mom and dad.

47:35Michelle said immediately we try we tell them they have you know they have a safe place to share your heart and so we were trying to protect and watch and make sure that their hearts were safe. They had a safe place to talk at the same time putting boundaries and safeguards up in our home Jim Bob said we weren't going to give up on Josh. They talk about how they said that the girls who he touched weren't mostly not aware that it happened but in some instances it sounds like they were aware so I'm not sure like what the breakdown on that is. I thought this was a very interesting redirect by Kelly at one point um she said um. As a parent did you feel guilty when you learned that his behavior continued and that other girls in the house had become victims Jim Bob said yes I think his parents you feel like a failure when one of your kids does something wrong you feel like if I had done more training or maybe something else. This wouldn't have happened but the truth is that kids will make their own choices and they will make their own decisions even though you've taught them about what's right and wrong.

48:41So in other words is not my fault making Kelly actually follows up I'm talking more about I'm asking more about is the father of your girls than is the father of Josh you know it must have been very hard to look at your little one and know that the behavior been ongoing as difficult as your position was. Jim Bob says right I was so thankful though the Josh came and told us in our girls even though this was a very bad situation as we talk to other families who've had you know other things happen a lot of their stories were even worse. It it feels to me and correct me if you feel I'm being too harsh. But it feels to me that what he's doing there is more of an attempt at damage control than honestly grappling with what these events have met to his family. Oh yeah I mean you know it's it's totally insincere it's just phoneiness I'm sorry like I mean it's actually discussed me on a visceral level. I mean making Kelly I mean to her credit I mean she's asking them some you know I think a lot of people felt that at the time that this was a pretty softball interview.

49:45It was a sympathetic interview and I think aspects of it certainly play that way when I watch it. But I think she actually asked him some pretty tough questions in terms of like I think they were framed softer perhaps then others would have framed them. But I feel like saying like hey had you acted earlier the youngest victim would not have been victimized. What do you think about that and having him be like well kids make bad decisions you know it's like no you made a bad decision and that hurt your other children. You know like these things happen these things can happen in any family I'm really I see sometimes people saying well. These people subscribe to extremely patriarchal and frankly misogynistic culture so therefore you know it's natural that predators would come up in this and I think I understand where that thinking comes from but it is it's actually kind of dangerous because.

50:45I don't care where you are who you are socioeconomic background race religion lack of religion you know whether whether you're in a conservative community a progressive community moderate community I don't care where you are predators exist. Every background ask anybody who works in that you know it doesn't matter who you are there they're going to be predators you know no one is immune to this. The difference though in this situation I think this speaks to the danger of a system that puts such an onus on young girls and women to manage the sexual needs and desires of boys and young men and men in general. I think the danger here is not that it's going to produce necessarily more predators. Just because it you know it's it's like let's subjugate the women I think it's more that when predators exist instead of dealing with it in a way that is.

51:46You know victim centric and logical the impulse is to minimize and the impulse is to sweep it away I could envision situations where family might learn about some of this and just tell the girls to just shut up and you know. That's your older brother we're not doing anything about it in this case it sounds like to be fair where we can be fair it sounds like Jim Bob and Michelle took some action. They may have felt that that was the right action. I think what they did was extremely dangerous and I think what they did was sweep it under the rug they may have not felt that way but when I see this it's like you know. They claim they went to Arkansas state police with him and that he divulged all this to a trooper who later turned out to be a pedophile himself. So I mean it's hard to say like they say yeah well we went to the law but like I don't know. The trooper disputes like he said that Josh only told him about one incident it's this whole thing so I don't know who to believe in that situation be honest because everybody has credibility problems.

52:51But it's it's just very troubling I feel very sorry for Josh's victims and then they were kind of traumatized with the how this all came out then. The thing though about Josh is that we can't just look at him and say well he did it when he was very young blah blah blah because we know. The problematic behavior continued and we know that he went on to be somebody who was found in with possession of child sexual abuse materials. So whatever they were trying to do to help him stem those abusive and bad urges ultimately you know whatever their intent was on that it obviously didn't work. And again I'm not saying like I don't know if that can be cured or if you can do early intervention and kind of get someone off that path or if he would have inevitably end up there anyway I don't know. I'm educated enough about that. But it certainly doesn't seem like something like this would set somebody up for success doing construction work over the summer.

53:58You know that might be good for a young boy who's kind of maybe I don't know like doesn't know any responsibilities so you're like hey get a job you know do some do some hard work and get out there and be outside and kind of have some responsibility like you know encouraging your child to get out and get involved like that can be a good thing but not for like. Sexual abuse. It just doesn't make any sense you know and I'm not saying that somebody's religious faith can't play a role in them healing or dealing with issues and I'm certainly not saying that but I am saying that like. At some point it's time to bring in the professionals you know it's time to get serious yeah like you know the you know. I don't know like there's there's there's more resources yeah so that's kind of where they left this is this is though I'll kind of close with this. This is something that Megan Kelly asked Jim Bob Michelle and I this was what stuck with me too and I think this is also going viral because people are like oh you know like they knew that there were other predators in the family.

55:07Megan says did you ever worry that the treatment didn't work especially with so many young children in the house Josh Jim Bob no Josh was a changed person Michelle and we still have those safeguards in place I mean like it's just we were there were there a lot of things that changed in our understanding as parents with you know this this first. Child for son you know to come to this place in his life we like there's things that we learned ever since that I think you know what we don't let boys babysit. We don't let you know they don't play hide and seek together to don't go off and hide I mean there's just a lot of things that we put in place and we said you know. You're not alone in a room when someone with someone else you're always out visible little ones don't sit on big boys laps or people you don't know or even family members you know unless it's your daddy. You know so there's just boundaries that we've learned end quote this is perhaps one of the more disturbing kind of glimpses into their worldview.

56:09I mean am I crazy to say this or is it fair to say that like it's not normal for it's not normals the wrong word I don't want to say that it's not. Like most boys young boys teenage boys are not sexually abusing their siblings. I think that's fair to say so but the way they talk about this it's like they can't trust any of their sons now. Right it's like on some level they realize like the problem might be more widespread almost and I think if the problem became more widespread is because some of this behavior was being normalized. You know or there were other issues that were not being taken care of but it's like their solution is like avoid don't trust your own brothers you know don't sit on their laps don't they're not going to babysit you. I don't know why I just find this disturbing what do you think I can understand that interpretation I can also understand a heightened sense of awareness of a particular issue if you become aware of it.

57:18If I'm in a car accident and I don't have my seatbelt on afterwards I'm going to be wearing my seatbelt every time I get into a car you could argue they're just more hyper aware of this issue based on what they've been to with Josh it's I agree it's just like I feel like instead of just saying Josh has something seriously wrong with him and we need to take drastic measures to. Help him work that out and protect our other children their solution was like any of our boys might be a predator it's just what boys do you know boys you're curious boys want to touch their siblings. You know because they like that's what's sick to me you know it's like they're almost normalizing and like this might happen again you know got to be prepared I hear what you're saying and I think there might be an element of that to it too but I just feel like their reaction to this was really disturbing. And you know I remember when all of this happened and it was very disturbing and I guess I just it's like now that this stuff has come out about Joseph with these allegations it's just like you have to people are wondering what was going on in that family where you have possibly two people who are praying on children now again I don't know enough I not a mental professional I do not know enough about child sexual abuse or

58:42you know differences between a child molester versus someone who's a pedophile and they you know I don't know I don't know enough I don't know whether it's like something where it's like well there's just so many kids that you know maybe there would be two or if it's something where like that can be behavior that's learned from an early age or preferences that are set from life experiences early on I don't know. You know and so I'm not going to I'm not going to say like it must be this or that I just don't know but it certainly raises a lot of disturbing questions it does indeed and thank you all so much for listening we really appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murder sheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our patreon that's available at www.patrion.com slash murder sheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests you can do so at www buy me a coffee dot com slash murder sheet.

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