The Canada Trade War Could Hand Democrats A Senate Majority (ft. Abdul El-Sayed)

0:00This episode is brought to you by TickTack. Lay something, get your game on because the TickTack lineup just got a new teammate. Dr. Pepper TickTack. This new double threat puts two of your favorite flavors into one box of mince. And when two iconic flavors come together, the result can only be iconic. Score big. Try Dr. Pepper TickTack today. There is so much NFL on ESPN right now. Monday night football, plus pregame and postgame. NFL live, NFL prime time. Everything you need to stay on top of every game every week. Unbelievable. And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app. More football, more coverage, more ways to watch. Football's on. All season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app. For the moments that matter, choose Kiraad Naturals. Infused with Aloe Vera and Vitamin E, Kiraad Naturals bandages protect your unexpected

1:03scrapes, cuts, and burns while also moisturizing your skin. Find deeper relief with natural ingredients you can trust to start the healing. When life surprises call for the best, choose Kiraad, a deeper level of care. Shop the full collection on Amazon or visit Kiraad.com to learn more. Dr. Martin Luther King said this thing and I think about it a lot. He said, if your coalition is not uncomfortable, it's not big enough. And I just think we have to be in a business of building sometimes uncomfortable coalitions. And look, I think we got to also get really good at having conversations about the things we disagree about agreeably. And I'm hoping that we can demonstrate that moving forward. We don't have to fight World War III over all of our differences, even if they're big, broad, sometimes painful, deeply painful differences. But I do think that democracy is the technology, age-old technology about how we figure out how to disagree peacefully. And we've, as a Democratic Party, have to demonstrate how democracy can work

2:05to bring us together around the things we all understand we agree on. Welcome, Raging Monor, some Skygallway. And I'm Jessica Tarlov. Later in the episode, we'll be joined by Abdul Al-Sahiah to talk about his pivotal Senate race in Michigan. One in Democrats will need if they want to take back the Senate. But before we get into it, please make sure to subscribe to Raging Monor. It's the best way to support the show and help us reach new audiences. All right, let's bust into it. Let's check in on Trump's trade war with Canada, because it could have real consequences for Republicans in some Senate races that will decide control of the chamber. The fight is hitting industries, including agriculture, auto, steel, and manufacturing, and Republican states, including Michigan and Maine, are already facing pressure from voters over the economic impact. And in all of this turmoil, Calcimarket's currently has the Democratic's chance of sweeping the House and the Senate in November. It's 61%. I can't get over this, Jess. Just wow, has the momentum there.

3:10I wish the election were tomorrow. What are your thoughts? I too wish the election were tomorrow. A lot can happen in what do we have 42 days. But it does feel like the tide has turned against the Republicans on mass. There was a while where it was just more of a Donald Trump problem, and it wasn't trickling down as far down ballot. And it does feel like there's been some pretty significant movement in the last couple of weeks. The trade war with Canada is certainly part of that, but I really think that it's still a war in Iran that is weighing on people's minds. CNN had a new poll out this morning over two thirds, just approval. Caitlin Collins tried to ask President Trump about it this morning, and he was pissed off that CNN still had access to the UN. He was like, I thought I banned you guys, but they're still allowed to cover because of the UN, which is a good thing. More transparency is always a bonus. But two big moves, and then the last

4:12day or so, Mike Rogers and Ashley Henson, so pivotal races, Michigan and Iowa, on the Republican side, posting that Donald Trump has got to end the war in Iran. And this has been especially Ashley Henson very much behind the president and what he wants to do or what he's going to accomplish there in Iran. Mike Rogers, the last couple of weeks have been slightly more tepid, but this is a real line in the sound. We got to get out of there if you think that we're going to be able to win any of these elections. And Michigan has a pickup opportunity for the Republicans, and I think that they were not necessarily a large degree, but were licking their lips at having Abdul Al Sayed on the ballot versus a more moderate candidate, like a Haley Stevens, or even Mallory McMarrow, when she was still in the race. And he's been pulling much stronger than certainly the first few weeks after he won the nomination.

5:14I just never want to feel sympathetic to the White House, but you have calls from both the left, Senator Murphy, a lot of people on the left just get out, just leave. We should have never been there leave. This was a mistake of epic proportions leave. And you have Republican consultants telling the president for the sake of the midterms you have to get out. The issue, and the question I would have is the RGC isn't going to let America out. So, in other words, the Senator Murphy and the president's consultants, are they fine with just seeding the straight of hormones to the RGC or the RGC can back the Houthis to cut supply lines in Saudi Arabia? Basically, they're saying, okay, you won. You now have control of the region. I mean, there's no. This truly is a definition of a quagmire because, okay, just get out. Well, I'm not sure. Can he just get out at this point? And wouldn't it be worse for him if all of it, if he says, okay, we're out. All right. I've cut bait. And then the RGC is now charging,

6:20it's now control of the straight. And every day is charging tools to any Western ship that goes through or blocking it or not blocking it. In my view, that would be worse for the midterms. I don't, I mean, granted you, you break it, you bought it, but to think that it's just a really easy option just to get out right now feels to me a bit naive. Well, I think what they're doing is just signaling to the voters that they're opposed to it. And I don't know if the White House tacitly agreed to this plan, you know, the Nancy Pelosi model of politics, which is I'll come and campaign with you if you want me to or run against me and call me the devil. If that's what you need, but all we got to do is win. Donald Trump does not seem like somebody who would authorize people to call him the devil or oppose any of his central policies, but obviously someone is advising these candidates in these big time. Markey race says that if they don't create some distance between themselves and the policies of this administration, they are going to

7:24get completely obliterated. And when you look at the way the numbers are moving in Iowa, where there are a number of congressional seats up for grabs that we are running fantastic candidates in. And that Rob Sand is consistently pulling eight, ten points ahead of the Republican. You're talking about Iowa and that he may give an important lift to Josh Turk there who is a very good candidate and I would say Ashley Henson as well on the Republican side. You know that there is a five alarm fire going on right now with them. So I think it's more like your Trump's not going to do anything. They're going to continue to tread water. But if we don't signal that we've got a pulse to these voters, it's going to be tsunami territory. I hate to give minority leaders Schumer any credit here. But whoever I don't know who's in charge of candidate quality, it feels like just full stop. The Democrats have done a better job with candidate quality than the Republicans. Would you agree with that?

8:25Totally. You know there was a question obviously about Graham Platner who was not Chuck Schumer's choice. He's out. Trey Jackson is not as exciting to people, but it seems like he is getting the job done and there's a big pro public investigation out today with some sorted behavior from Susan Collins, not in a sexy way, not a Lauren Boebert story. Oh the FBI corruption squad. Certainly Susan Collins. Yeah. So pro public is out with this story where she helps your millions in federal defense contracts to NAB attack who CEO legally funneled thousands of dollars to her campaign. The FBI was going to launch a probe and was iron Collins and other lawmakers and then Trump gutted the unit. Surprise. Surprise. So that is going to become a featured story obviously in the main race. But candidate quality otherwise, Chuck Schumer has had enormous wins. I mean Mary Platola in Alaska, she's up six in the latest bipartisan poll with Tony for Bretzio on it. So the

9:25president's pollster is putting that out into the ether. Roy Cooper is just next level great. Michael Wattley is a terrible candidate on the Republican side, but Cooper is enormously good. Josh Schumer. So good up, Jackson. Is that good candidate quality? I'm trying to think he's got a win for Worcett. It's like, I can't imagine it is so hard as a Republican to lose in Texas. And I think Jackson's going to pull it off. Well, did you see that John Cornyn and George W. Bush having a fundraiser for every other Republican candidate, but Ken Paxton and they're doing it in Dallas. Yeah. That's like, come and give me money and I will send it everywhere else, but here. I don't want to get too optimistic about it. It's still Texas, but that feels like as big of a shot across Ken Paxton's bow as you could possibly imagine that there are plenty of Republicans who are not going to fall in line for him. So yes, Chuck Schumer, I give you maybe not so many flowers, but I give you one beautiful big rose. Credible is credits too, right? Like the bachelor.

10:30Yeah. There we go. I like it. I have absolutely no inability to understand references to the batch. I've never seen it and I will. I'm just give a rose to the people you like. This episode is brought to you by TickTack. Lace up and get your game on because the TickTack lineup just got a new teammate. Dr. Pepper TickTack. This new double threat puts two of your favorite flavors into one box of mince and when two iconic flavors come together, the result can only be iconic. Score big. Try Dr. Pepper TickTack today. There is so much NFL on ESPN right now. Monday Night Football, plus pregame and postgame. NFL live NFL prime time. Everything you need to stay on top of every game every week. Unbelievable. And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app. More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.

11:30Football's on. All season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app. For the moments that matter, choose Kiraad Naturals. Infused with Aloe Vera and Vitamin E, Kiraad Naturals bandages protect your unexpected scrapes, cuts, and burns, while also moisturizing your skin. Find deeper relief with natural ingredients you can trust to start the healing. When life surprises call for the best, choose Kiraad, a deeper level of care. Shop the full collection on Amazon or visit Kiraad.com to learn more. All right, let's move on. Paramount's $111 billion acquisition of Warner Brothers Discovery is cleared. Its last major hurdle is the company and coalition of state attorneys general led by California's Rob Bonta reached a settlement on Monday in the antitrust lawsuit that had held the deal up. CEO David Ellison back by his father to Larry, now planning to close the deal within about two weeks. Jess, is this a surprise? What do you think the state attorney's general

12:32accomplished here? Not a surprise. It was a matter of time. You know, the Ellisons are saying that they have addressed the state's attorney generals concerns and the WGA, the big concession or the big new shiny part of this deal is that there's going to be this board to oversee independence with CNN and CBS. You know, everyone was concerned about the Ellisons who are quite right-leaning and affiliated with Trump and the administration very closely. The thing is that the journalist who will be on this overseeing board are going to be appointed by Paramount. So as far as I understand, the only criteria that they have to meet is that they've been a journalist for over 10 years. So, you know, how does it get enforced? What does it actually look like? I imagine since this was going to happen that this is better than not having a board like that, but those who are

13:33opposed to this merger and Jane Fonda had a statement about how she's glad that Ted Turner isn't alive to see this, frankly. But those in opposition, you know, say that it's still going to do the bad stuff that it was before and you can have enormous amounts of job cuts and that Hollywood is still very much at risk, even if they Paramount or the Ellisons via this merger are still promising to make enormous investments and that they just want it to be reinvigorated industry and another golden age. I think this is Rob Bonta's taxing the American or California public and American public as he made an extended, expensive, pure, click-sotic announcement that he's running for governor. I think this is total populace bullshit. There is absolutely no antitrust law that would prevent or economic reasoning that would present this or prohibit this merger. These are two companies

14:34that are medium-sized trying to bulk up against much larger meta alphabet Amazon and had these companies not been allowed to merge, Paramount would have died or CVS would have turned into a distressed asset sale sold off for parts and Warner Brothers probably would have been fine because they have some great IP but this just made sense. In addition, job loss is not illegal. That's called capitalism. Companies merge, I was on the board of the Yellow Pages Company and we used to go buy another Yellow Pages Company, lay off everyone with the salespeople and live to fight another day and that may sound upsetting but that, if you can't fire people then you can't hire them. The sedatorial board is just so fucking ridiculous. You want to talk about the weakest sauce in history. It reminds me when the WGA said, negotiated as part of their agreement after they put writers out of business for seven months with absolutely no upside whatsoever. They got an agreement that the studios would have to discuss AI with them before using it. Okay, we're going

15:39to use AI discussion over. When I was on the board of the New York Times and by the way, I'll bring that up a lot because I think it makes me some more impressive. It's very fancy. 175 years, Jess. They've been around 175 years. Yeah. Anyways, they have this 15 person board and just as I'm praising the times, let me be critical, the sales burgers of sold their shares, they own less than 1% and they control it and they get 10 board seats and the common, the people own the other 99% get five. So basically the board is just an advisory board and then over Thanksgiving dinner, the sales burgers decide every major decision and the rest of us are just like barking at them, hoping to listen to us. We hadn't way more power than this editorial board is going to have. This is, this is literally going to be, oh, that's interesting. We'll buy you lunch. Michael's Merconish will come in and talk and these meetings are going to be so ridiculous, symbolic and meaningless and also the

16:41notion they agreed not to sell their two lots. That's pure socialism. Companies can buy and sell assets as they see fit and then an agreement to produce more films. That's like if JPMorgan and Goldman merged and saying, okay, you've got to build more ATMs or you know, Bonta tried to position the acquisition is this Godzilla-like figure, but okay, we have to make more films around Godzilla. This was a waste of resources. This was pure regulatory theater and I think it reflects poorly on the AG and the state of politics right now. I understand the less desire to say, well, if you're going to play politics with media, it will play politics, but be clear other than delay and obfuscation, which probably was not good for Warner Brothers or Paramount or the employees there who have been like a bird in mid air flapping its wings with no direction. This was a waste of time, a waste of energy makes both firms weaker such that Rob Bonta

17:41announced he's running it for governor. This was total regulatory bullshit. This was a hostage negotiation when there was no threat to the hostage. These guys, Bonta did not have a legal leg to stand on and closing thoughts before we move on. What do you make of the Gavin Newsom of it all because I feel like this is going to affect his future. It's going to be a big part of the conversation around 2028. And if he, I guess he's waiting to hear what's up with Kamala, but let's assume that he's running for president. This feels like the kind of thing that the left will go after him about in the primary. I don't know what his stance on the merger was. What did you say? Did he stay out of it or did he have a viewpoint on it? It varied. He was seen as being like tacitly pro. And a lot of that was about saving the industry. And there were big heavyweight liberals that

18:44were pro in this like Brian Lord and R.A. Emmanuel. And there was that anxiety and I understand why when Paramount said, okay, we'll just go to Georgia. That's actually happening in a lot of ways. Having been in L.A. for the last few days, I was struck by how many people that I met were talking about jobs that they had in Georgia or how much better the work situation is in Nashville was a big one. And also in Atlanta. So you have to preserve jobs for your state, right? That's close to your number one. If not, your number one, a most important job. But I feel like this is going to be a haunting thing, especially if there are a bunch of progressives up there on the stage. Yeah, so I mean, if I were advising the governor's campaign, if he decides to run for president, one, I would go on offense and say one of the reasons we've progressed from being the fifth largest economy in the world, past Japan, the fourth largest economy in the world is we, unlike the Trump

19:48administration, have embraced and believe in capitalism. And capitalism is full body contact that includes mergers. It sometimes it includes layoffs and sometimes it includes growth. And we expect, according to the economists and the courts themselves, that this was not going to create a monopoly. And this is a standard part of the economic process. And our entertainment industry is hugely valuable. It's still an enormously important part of the economy. I, Governor Newsom, super sized our tax credits to be more competitive with economies that were buying business. People would rather film here. But we have to let these companies cook. They're good at what they do. Best media companies in the world. And these guys needed a bulk up against other great companies who've decided to be in California, including Metta and YouTube. So I'm a capitalist. I've embraced capitalism. That's why my economy is the fourth biggest in the world. Let them cook. You know, this, there was no evidence that this was going to be an monopoly. If I were him, I'd go a touch freedman and a touch capitalist because all the people bitching at him about

20:53saying, oh, it's going to hurt jobs and the Ellison's are evil. All those people are going to vote for the Democrat anyways. So I think he needs to go a little bit sister soldier on this and be a full-blown blue-blooded capitalist. Who knows your thoughts? No, I think that's going to be his only option, frankly. And he's going to be doing most of his work trying to muscle out folks more in the center and a lot of governors that are going to be running on things like creating jobs and balancing budgets like Pennsylvania and Kentucky. So I think it works well there. I just, it always gets ugly when it's the intra tent fighting. So whatever an AOC or a row conner, for instance, I'm sure they'll be fighting about the billionaire tax and things like that. So I imagine this would be part of it. But Nat Ned, it was also just a train that you couldn't stop. And at a certain point, I think you try to get whatever concessions or at least virtue signal towards the things that you want people to know that you actually care about. And this board,

21:57editorial board is a bit of a joke, but they didn't they didn't have much choice. And it'll be interesting to see how the Ellison's behave under a new administration. You know what that looks like. Or even in the lame dock part of the presidency. I don't think the Ella. I don't think it's going to be journalists in my view are really precious. And I understand the importance, but they're, I think the Ellison's like money more than they like republican politics. It's one thing for them to fuck with 60 minutes, which economically is meaningless. And in my view, it's just been slowly bit, truly losing relevance for a long time. CNN is still a cash gusher. And Ellison, dad is personally on the hook for $50 billion. I don't think he's going to fuck with CNN for political reasons at this point. I think these guys like money more than they like politics. I think they're capitalists at the end of the day. Do they lean right? Absolutely. I think the kid is actually I've heard leans left. I don't see the threat to democracy and progressive politics.

23:03My co-host my other sister wife is basically said she can't work for the Ellison's. And I've said to her, I don't think it's going to be that bad. Maybe I'm naive. But I think that CNN is too important for them to do anything. CNN hasn't positioned as center left. It works for them to make good money despite having a lower smaller audience. I think they make more money than Fox because nobody with any money watches Fox. I'm sure you're going to disagree with that. But we make a lot more money. I believe. Hold on. Okay. So I just want to say. So as always, Jess is absolutely right. Fox news, 3.3 billion. CNN at 1.8 billion. So 80% larger. CNN has been shrinking from 2.2 billion in 2021 to around 1.8. And Fox is up 5%. So CNN is shrinking. Fox is up. I'm trying to save

24:04grace here and show that per viewer CNN makes more money. But at the end of the day, you're absolutely right. Fox makes 80% more money. What's 80% amongst Fox? What's 80%? Same same. You're splitting hairs, Jess. Yeah. All right. Should we move on to our interview? Yeah. I'm so excited. This episode is brought to you by TickTack. Lace up and get your game on because the TickTack line up just got a new teammate. Dr. Pepper TickTack. This new double threat puts two of your favorite flavors into one box of mince. And when two iconic flavors come together, the result can only be iconic. Score big. Try Dr. Pepper TickTack today. There is so much NFL on ESPN right now. Monday night football plus pregame and postgame. NFL live NFL prime time. Everything you need to stay on top of every game every week.

25:05Unbelievable. And now NFL network is on the ESPN app. More football, more coverage, more ways to watch. Football's on. All season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app. For the moments that matter, choose Kiraad Naturals. Infused with Al-Ovarra and Vitamin E, Kiraad Naturals bandages protect your unexpected scrapes, cuts, and burns while also moisturizing your skin. Find deeper relief with natural ingredients you can trust to start the healing. When life surprises call for the best, choose Kiraad, a deeper level of care. Shop the full collection on Amazon or visit Kiraad.com to learn more. All right, joining us today is Democratic Senate nominee from Michigan Abdul El-Sahiad. Abdul, it's so good to have you here. Thanks for taking the time to be with us. It's an honor to be with you. I feel like it's got the last time you and I had a conversation was

26:06probably COVID era. And, and, Jessica, I think we haven't had a conversation except for, I feel like we've had many conversations through our, apparently, our mutual buddy, Jesse Waters now. So there's that. Yes, we have the strangest of parosocial relationships that run through him directly. We're Jesse's two liberal friends, isn't that great? And we can sit on either side of him and destroy his life. There you go. He calls us left and left, or? That's, yeah, you're a laughter, though. Yeah. That's, that's probably true. Let's get to it. We only have you for a few minutes here. You're running one of the most closely watched Senate races in the country and a state with the economy, the auto industry, immigration, Gaza, and the relationship with Canada are all deeply personal issues for voters. And you're coming into this general election after a pretty bruising primary and after a campaign that's already put questions about the future of the Democratic Party out there. So a new poll has you leading at 47% against microaggers and Cal. She has the odds of you winning at 69%. We're, we're going to start here is an issue hitting Michigan or specifically Canada.

27:10Now affordability essential to your campaign. And let's jump to letter M or N here and assume that a lot of people in Michigan and a lot of the people on this podcast are listening probably believe that tariffs are a bad thing. And bad for America, bad for shrinks our market, increases our prices, especially bad for Michigan. If elected to the Senate, what would you do to try and address the tariffs problem and more broadly affordability? Well, you know, step it all the way back. This is a president right now who has tried to take extraordinary power. He thinks of himself as both the executive branch of government and also legislative branch. And part of that is because Republicans have had a control of the legislative branch and they willingly give in and over to him. And so we need to take that power back. And the power to levy tariffs is a power that sits with Congress. And so I think re taking that power is number one. I'll also say this. I'm actually really quite skeptical of full free trade. I just

28:12understand that tariffs are like chemo therapy. You know, if you take the idea that NAFTA and TPP were cancers on the American economy, they hemorrhaged key great jobs that Michiganers had been able to rely on for years, you don't just give the patient all the chemo all at the same time because you have a vanity war against the tumor. That's what Donald Trump is doing. Instead, what you do is you're very, very thoughtful and directed about how you use that tool. So I think there's a smart use of tariffs and it's to protect fast growing high manufacturing capacity jobs. Like I think we're on the gauntlet and said, I'd like to see Detroit make a $25,000 300 mile EV. We're going to continue to be the world's leaders in internal combustion engines. Great. That's where my dad came to this country to design. But also we should be the world's leader in EV2. And so what does that look like? What is the kind of industrial policy that includes the right mix of subsidies and investments and tariffs to be able to allow us to continue to be the world's leader? So that's the next step. It's, yes, tearing back these ridiculous, aimless tariffs. But it's also saying,

29:18all right, what's the smart use of these to actually start doing the things that tariffs are supposed to do? Scott, you're a business professor. You've forgotten more about this stuff than than I know. But you and I both agree that there is a way to use these kinds of tools if you're smart about it. It's like taking a hammer and trying to nail in a screw. It doesn't work. So what does it look like to use a screwdriver or to use a hammer against a nail? So assuming that we have the success we're hoping for in the House and the Senate and we're able to roll back would have already been deemed illegal these tariffs which make no economic sense. More structurally, a long term, how do you think as a senator you'd want to approach and what what structural changes would you champion to make things more affordable? Is it anti-trust? Is it opening up global trade? How do we how do we bring inflation down and create structural solutions to an affordability crisis in America? Yeah. So let's break the problem down into a couple parts. Our inflation crisis inflation as you well know is when there's too much money chasing

30:22too few goods. Our economy has gotten less productive than it needs to be in large part because it's ossified around a few very large corporations who we expect to drive all of our economic growth. So if we're serious about taking this problem on we need the combination of a really smart, small business oriented economic development approach. Be really, really smart industrial policy like the kind I laid out where we make some really smart investments in high job growth opportunities and then we back them up with subsidies to help grow those industries and create jobs and tariffs that protect those industries as they grow. And then it's unions to make sure that the gains aren't just realized by big corporations but instead are realized by everyday working people. I believe in capitalism but I understand that right now we don't live in capitalism, we live in corporatism and that corporatism has allowed really, really big corporations to dominate the economic space. Prouding out a lot of would-be competitors that bring prices down

31:23and also offer more choice in different markets. And those corporations have been able to jump the shark so to speak by buying off politicians to make sure that they can use that power to cement their place in our markets. I just want to get back to normal capitalism and normal capitalism is it makes some smart investments you make sure that those investments are not blocking out any would-be competitors because that's what makes our economy so dynamic and you make sure that the gains aren't just hoarded at the very top but there's split apart evenly. Well I want to talk to you about your campaign partner for later in the day but before we get to that I wanted to touch on what's going on with Mike Rogers, Visavid, the trade war with Canada and the war in Iran were broadly. He has been backpedaling very, very quickly now out with statement saying that we've got to end the war in Iran. He also did a turnaround on data centers when he saw that the Michigan voters just weren't having it. I'm curious as to

32:26if you think that something did shift in the last week or two that prompted him to do this and how you're going to be able to continue to tie these positions to him as we go into the last 40 days of this campaign. Well his poll number is shifting. He's realizing that he's deeply underwater because he's tied himself to the most disastrously corrupt politician in American history, Donald Trump. And he's realizing that he's kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Donald Trump says jump and he says how high? Donald Trump says tariffs against Canada. He says how high? Donald Trump says we're going to continue to do this war in Iran. He said okay for how long? And he's realizing now that we're paying five dollars in gas, six dollars and eighty cents in diesel which we all pay for at the grocery store because diesel is what gets it trucked to the grocery store. He's realizing that this has become a disaster for him. Now look my point about him has always been that he's corrupt and he's craven and he's cowardly. And this is exactly what you're seeing. He took five million dollars from corporations to run his previous campaigns for Congress, a million alone from

33:26prescription from prescription drug companies. And now that the poll numbers are shifted, he's just about facing which shows you that he's craven, right? This is a guy who does not actually care about basic principle is not considering what his principles are. Instead, he's going to follow Donald Trump because he understands that his only path to power is because Trump said okay. And now that he's looking at 42 days left without the ability to course correct, he's flopping on everything. Data centers, flip flops, the war in Iran, flip flops, watch the tariffs is going to come tomorrow, he's going to flip flop. And so what people are starting to see for him is yeah, this is a guy who's only interest is his own power. He will say and do anything that it takes to get there. And let's just step back. We all watched this mic Rogers when Donald Trump was rising to power in 2015, 2016. Talk about how Donald Trump does not represent his values. And then now he tells us he's running for office because Donald Trump called him and told him to do it. There is no principle there. And I think Mr. Gander's are sick and tired of seeing that kind of politics because guess what?

34:26If he wins, he's going to turn around and do exactly what every Republican Senator has done, which is cow-tow to Trump hand over his power to him and let Trump continue to lead us down these disastrous paths that we pay thousands of dollars for simply because of Trump's vanity. So excellent. Time of mic Rogers to Donald Trump and that evidence is very clear. But you are tying yourself to somebody from our side of the aisle who had a big position, the former vice president, Kamil Harris, you're going out on the campaign trail with her at a time when lots of other people running in high profile races have said, no, thank you. And gone as far as Rob Sands saying that we need new leadership. How did you make the decision to campaign with her? What are you hoping to get out of this? And is this about showing up more of the black support in Michigan for your campaign? So Jessica, I'll just tell you this. My job is to build a winning coalition. And that coalition is broad as has been famously hashed and rehashed. I've engaged a whole lot

35:33of different perspectives on our party to come and build that broad coalition just because you campaign with somebody doesn't mean that you agree with them on everything that they say. And I, you know, you guys famously host a, host a pod called raging moderates. You know, I, I, I, most folks would say, well, a duel has different takes on a lot of the issues than you do. Great, but I'm having a conversation with you to have a conversation with the people who pay attention to you. In the same point, right, I agree with Vice President Harris on a lot of things. The issue that we're going to be talking about today, maternal and infant mortality disparities, black babies shouldn't die at two times the rate of white babies. Black moms shouldn't die at three to four times the rate of white moms. We all agree on that and we want great ideas that we can enact in Congress to take that on. When it comes to Gaza, I've been very, very clear about my position. I believe in equal rights to peace, dignity and self-determination for Palestinians and Jewish Israelis alike. I do not think we should continue to subsidize unconditionally foreign governments. That includes Israel, but also includes my family's and the individual. I don't think

36:34we should be selling weapons to folks who use them to do the worst things, including genocide or apartheid. And I've just been very, very clear about that. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with the Vice President on everything where she has to agree with me on everything to come together around the many, many, many things we agree on. Donald Trump is an existential threat to democracy. You should have clean air, clean water. Baby shouldn't die in infancy. We can and must protect the right to vote. People shouldn't have to pay so much for gas and groceries. The war in Iran is ridiculous. So I just think that sometimes we make a lot in our party about the differences between us. And I think to build a broad coalition, you have to be able to really focus on the things we agree. And look, we hashed out our differences in this primary. I took 32 million dollars on the chin from APAC $70 million total from corporate packs and even the Democratic Party. But our job now is to come together and recognize that this race is about winning the US Senate to take back power to hold Donald Trump accountable and get to the business of getting money out of politics, put money in her pocket and passing Medicare for all. I hope our tent can be as big and full as you think so.

37:38Well, just a couple of minutes to look. Dr. Martin Luther King said this thing. And I think about it a lot. He said, if your coalition is not uncomfortable, it's not big enough. And I just think we have to be in the business of building sometimes uncomfortable coalitions. And look, I think we got to also get really good at having conversations about the things we disagree about agreeably. And I'm hoping that we can we can demonstrate that moving forward. We don't have to fight World War 3 over all of our differences, even if they're big, broad, sometimes painful, deeply painful differences. But I do think that democracy is the technology, age-old technology about how we figure out how to disagree peacefully. And we've as a Democratic Party have to demonstrate how how democracy can work to bring us together around the things we all understand we agree on. No argument for me. So, Abdu, I was going to talk about health care and I'll come back to it. But under the auspices of Uncontrable, do you think the war in Gaza qualifies as a genocide? Do you think the government of Israel is committing a genocide? I do. And I've been clear about why.

38:42Genocide is both outcome and intense. And when you have foreign ministers declaring intent and then the outcome is tens of thousands of children who have been killed, I would call that a genocide. Now, let me be clear about this. I understand that my use of that word can can peak a lot of really uncomfortable traumas for folks. But I also have studied my history. When you look at the world's greatest worst genocide in history, the greatest crime committed on people that is in memorable history, the murder of six million Jews in the Holocaust coming out of that horrific crime, the word genocide was created to explain what that was. But the whole point of creating that word isn't that you have to wait until the crime is that big again to be able to use it otherwise it loses its power. Its power is in naming a thing before it gets that big so we could do something about it. And I think it's just really important for us to be able to name what has happened

39:43so we could do something about it. And I think you and I probably both agree on the outcome that we don't like to see. I pray for a world where a Jewish child and a Palestinian child growing up in the Holy Land can look forward at their future and know that their future is not going to be curtailed by violence. That's an outcome I think we all ought to be committed to. But the question we have to ask ourselves is how do we get there? And the challenge right now is too often our debate is about a quote unquote two-state solution in a time where every president has said they're for a two-state solution, but our government is aiding arming and abetting the very people who are trying to foreclose on the possibility of the second state. It's incoherent on its own terms. So what does it look like for us to face down the current incoherence, the current unwillingness to actually ask whether or not what we're doing is getting us to the outcome we really want and start thinking outside the box because we get so caught up in the past that we forget that there's still a future we have to play for. And if you look at your kids and I and you ask what is what matters most, I think it's being able to

40:46make sense out of the past to actually address the future. And that's what I'm hoping we can do. That's going to have some uncomfortable conversations going to mean building uncomfortable coalitions, but no conversation about getting to peace happens without getting to justice and no justice happens until people are willing to come together talk about what happens in frank terms, agree where we can agree but also decide that we're going to work together to get where we want to go. And I'd love to see a world where Jewish Israelis and Palestinians come together on equal terms to build out a future where all of their kids no longer have to worry about being killed at the hands one another. I agree with you it's important we have thoughtful civil discussions. You and I have had really productive conversations around healthcare before. As a Jew I find it entirely unfair and not accurate to describe what's happening in Israel as a genocide. My understanding of the definition of a genocide is the purposeful extermination of the people based on the religion, their ethnicity or their nationality. Going from 15 million to 9 million in Europe of Jews was a

41:50genocide 40 percent wiping out 70 percent of the Tootsie population that was a genocide. The third of the Cambodian population that was a genocide. 3 percent of the Gaza population has been killed and typically a genocide doesn't involve shipping and polio vaccines or 2500 calories a day or dropping leaflets or leaving voicemails telling civilians to vacate an area where they have been purposely embedded in military targets. Do you understand why Jews such as myself find your description of what's happening in Israel and in Gaza as a genocide as disqualifying. So I understand why that you you would make the argument but let me just also push back when people use dehumanizing language against the people when they bomb their hospitals and their schools when they attempt to displace them from where they are with the argument that well you know they're all Arabs these other people speak the same language they might as well just be shipped over there. That seems to

42:53me to be deliberate targeting. So you know I would ask you do you understand why somebody who's been thinking about this question looking at it connecting the dots between the language that is used and the outcomes that were created would then label it that way. You know I just I think the big question for me is in some respects people don't want to use the word because of the moral implication of what ought to be done following it. But the question to me is could we put the same effort into preventing it from having happened in the first place. And I think the whole world and you look at the images of I'm just thinking about an image that I saw of these two girls one of them they're baking in the heat clearly their parents are gone. It's an older girl who's about the age of my older daughter and a younger girl who's about the age of my younger daughter and the older girl is fanning the younger girl. And I don't know how we as humans allow ourselves to do that systematically over the course of years to another people. And then we want to quibble about the

43:57words that we use to call it that thing. Like the moral imperative for action was in seeing the images that we saw. And I think for a lot of folks we look at that and say well you know there's this what is the purpose of a Palestinian child in the way that the world has organized itself except for it to go through that. And if we think that every Palestinian child deserves the right to live in dignity and deserves a good future then what does it require us to do. And I think that word has meaning and should be used because it speaks to the moral imperative of action to prevent that. The word does have meaning. And when you use the term genocide I think it connotes the notion that whoever's committing this genocide is guilty of something so horrific that it justifies potentially a genocide against them. And that it might be horrific. It might be horrific. It might be a war crime. It might be wrong. But when you use the word genocide one I think there's absolutely no factual support for that term that qualifies for that term. And two it creates a

45:00level of hostility towards Jews in this city with a diaspora feels vulnerable because I am part and supportive of an organization that is committing genocide. And Scott I'm gonna point to a couple of things. You know you and I have had a number of really great conversations. I think you and I probably think very similarly on a number of issues. Obviously this one is one on which we disagree but yep. Do we have to wait until more people get killed? How many people do we say is enough to then call it a genocide? Because the whole point of calling it that is to stop it from happening in the first place. So it's somewhat self-defeating in its own logic. Second, the calling something a genocide does not justify a genocide. Like you can't say that because one group committed a genocide that a genocide ought to be justified against them. That is you know that is not the argument anyone's making. I think everybody would agree that nobody should be in the business of killing Jewish people because they're Jewish. That is a terrible thing. In fact

46:04we built our whole system of international law because of the systematic murder of Jewish people. I just want us to follow that system of international law and do the things we need to do. And then finally on the factual justification, neither you nor I are scholars on genocide. I leave it to scholars on genocide. In Israel itself, who've called this a genocide. So it's not just my use of the term. It is the use of the term for people who have made their life's work about technically allocating that word in the circumstances in which it's used with great care in Israel. And so I'm just saying that you know it's I think there is this leap to saying well if you call it a genocide then you must be justifying reprisal. I'm not I'm not justifying reprisal. I am trying to say that we need to intervene to stop these terrible things from happening. I'm not calling on systematic annihilation of anyone. If anything, I'm calling on the systematic upkeep of people's lives everywhere for everyone. And that's the point that I keep trying to make the money. You know,

47:05and look, I'm not running to be a leader in that region. I'm running to be Senator for Michigan. And in Michigan, we've got a lot of people who don't have the things we need which adds an almost insult to the injury because that's money that could have been used to be spent to do good things here at home. And so I'm not calling for anyone to be hurt. I'm calling for everyone to be safe. And I think it's important for us when we see the systematic annihilation of a people to call that out and do the things that we need to do to prevent that. But you are seeing Democrats including traditionally pro-Israel Democrats voting against aid to go over there like a list of Slocke in who will hopefully be your co-Senator and John Ossoff, you know, a big reversal in that vote, Mark Kelly's of the world. So that memo has been gotten. You will get no argument from anyone on this podcast or really anyone that we come across certainly in left or center left leaning circles that BB Nenyahoo is a pernicious threat to his own people to the region that he's got to go. Hopefully the elections bear that out and that what's going on in the West Bank is absolutely

48:09unacceptable. But when you talk about the genocide in Gaza and your comments do not discuss October 7th and they do not involve calling out Hamas who plays an integral role in keeping the people of Gaza oppressed, used kids and innocents as human shields for instance, you know, set up camp below some of those schools and hospitals that you rightly, rightly pointed out that innocents died there, but that there were terrorists hanging out there as well. It makes people who might even be able to get over the idea of using a word that they don't agree with because there are a lot of Jews in Michigan and we speak to them all the time who desperately want to vote for you because you believe in 99% of the same things that they do. You believe in getting everyone affordable decent health care and a woman's right to choose and policies that uplift the most vulnerable amongst us. That's what being a Democrat means. And when you see this non-negotiable

49:13pledge, which was created by groups of rabbis and Jewish leaders, basically just asking, I think for the bare minimum Jewish safety, Jewish sovereignty and Israel that it will stay a Jewish state and that you will talk about it as such and you won't sign on to that. It says to people who can get there for you, who, who, again, no one wants microtures, certainly no one on this podcast and no one that we're talking to, but they want to hear a more nuanced perspective that acknowledges what happened in Israel and what Hamas is doing and that you will fight for their protections as well and certainly as hard as you would fight for any Palestinian child because that's what we all want. Here's the challenge that I often have. Look, when it comes to the question of Jewish safety, that to me, like you said, is non-negotiable. That's not what's on the table right now. In some respects, I took very seriously some of the feedback I got after the attack on Temple, Israel,

50:16that I was trying to offer context for something that the context was not helpful, that there were kids who were attacked on that day and that needs to be condemned on its own terms. I said hurt people hurt people and people took great offense to that. Now, we're talking about the the systematic annihilation of tens of thousands of kids and you're telling me in effect, well hurt people hurt people. We can condemn what Hamas did on October 7th and we can condemn a genocide that took place thereafter and we can do those in two different terms. But to tell me that I cannot condemn a genocide unless I also condemn the actions of October 7th, somebody else would pick that up and say, yeah, but then what about the systematic occupation and apartheid perpetrated and we could play that game forever. I don't want to do that. I want us to be honest about what needs to happen and let's be clear for too long, the question of interest is not actually what's happening over there. It's what's happening with our policy in the United States. We run cover for the state of

51:16Israel. We don't fund Hamas. We run cover for them at the ICC. We run cover for them at the ICC. We run cover for them at the United Nations. We pay into their military. We sell them weaponry that they used to do these worst things, $2.8 billion in in two thousand pound bombs just now. Why? Like to what end and explain to me why that makes sense as an American policymaker. So, yes, I just think that it's, it's, we need to have this conversation on the terms in which it needs to be hot. Tens of thousands of kids were killed and there is no ever justification for killing children. No, not ever. And that's exactly the point. And that's why I apologize. Ever. Okay. And I appreciate that you made that apology. I am not saying that this is about a what aboutism or that we've got to go to this and you can just play this game of dominoes. What I'm telling you is that there are people who are not going to be able to pull the lever, check the box. However, they're voting for you unless you demonstrate to them that you understand their concerns. This is about morals and values and ethics and it is also about

52:21winning elections. And there is a group of people that are asking you, I think, for very bare minimum acknowledgement of their concerns. They're not even saying stop saying genocide. And Jessica, I'll tell you like when it comes to that, I've been having a number of really great conversations behind closed tours and in public. When it comes to the safety of the Jewish community here in Michigan, when it comes to the safety of Jews anywhere, I am, I am focused on protecting Jewish safety. But I also believe that the safety of Palestinians is equally important. And too often when we have this conversation, there's this, um, the same use of who's a, who is a comedian, right? I can't sign off on all the things he said, but I heard him say this thing one time and it really struck me. He said, you know, what's the purpose of a Palestinian child except for to die? Because that's all you ever hear them doing. And I think we should reflect on that. Because oftentimes when this conversation has had, it's had under the premise that any attempt to advocate for the right of that child to live their life peacefully must automatically come at

53:23the cost of a Jewish child. I don't believe that to be the case. I don't think you do either. And so I just think it's important for us to get to a level of public policy where we ask what would we do if we treated every child like they were our child? And I think we would be treating this situation fantastically differently. It's not hard for me to say that the kidnapping and murder of innocent people was wrong. Of course it was. But why are we unwilling to call what happened to tens of thousands of kids by money that should be spent on our kids? Why are we unwilling to use the term that would be using a lot more easily in a different circumstance? And look, I believe in principle. And I want people to know exactly where I think and how I think. And you'll know, right, I'm deeply consistent of nothing else. I'm going to have the conversation in audiences that agree with me or don't agree with me. I'm going to say the thing I believe. And when I've had conversations with my Jewish sisters and brothers here in Michigan, I've told them where we agree I'm going to be honest, direct and specific and where we disagree. I'm going to be honest, direct and

54:26specific. And you might disagree with me and that might mean you might not fall for me. That's okay. But I'm unwilling to bend my principle around what I believe. And I think we believe in the same principles. The question is ultimately how we apply them and if we apply them evenly. Got it. I will appreciate your candor. I just wanted to still it down to and you talked about the need to for Democrats to agree to disagree. I think that what you believe is a genocidal action on the part of the idea for resulting in horrific death of children. I won't speak for the Jewish community. I laid the death, the horrific death of those children at the feet of a terrorist organization that performed what I feel is a real brutal act of terror. And I would describe those horrific deaths as collateral damage along the lines of every other historical war, maybe even less so. We, 2300 Americans die, excuse me, 2800 Americans die, 9-11. We go on to kill 400,000 people,

55:272200 service people in Pearl Harbor. We go on to kill a million and a half Japanese. It really does come down to the word for me. I just don't think that's an accurate representation of the word and justifies unnecessary, unnecessary downward spiral of more hate and ultimately more violence. I'll give you the last word, Abou. I appreciate your perspective and hearing your perspective. Obviously, this is an issue on which we disagree. Just those two examples that you pointed out, I think most of us would point to those examples and say that shouldn't have had to happen. We shouldn't have done that. And same story, right? We shouldn't have done that. What I want folks to hear me in saying is I come at this issue from a position of a principle. I want every child to live the life that is unencumbered by the violence that came before them. That's what we're trying to build. And the question is, if we started with that premise and we took it as certain that each of these lives, a Palestinian child's life, a Jewish, Israeli's child's

56:28life, that that life was worth the same. What would we do and how would we behave? And I just, I think we should start from that premise. What does it take to get there? All that is to say, we are going to have disagreements in our party. We are. But on 80% of those questions that animate what it is we believe about the world that democracy is the best way to solve our differences that we deserve clean air, clean water, good schools, good health care, child care, an economy that works for people. We agree on those things. There are going to be points of disagreement, but I'll also just say this. I think that point that we go back to about the uncomfortable coalition. Sometimes those coalitions are real uncomfortable. But again, I think there's a space here where we start to ask, where do we move forward? Because the thing about a vote, and this is what I want us to really think about. A vote is not about the past. A vote is about the future. And where do we want to go in the future? And that's what I'm really hoping to build together. It's been a really, really engaging conversation. I really, really appreciate you

57:29having me. And I hope that folks that understand what I mean is like, I say the same thing to everybody. And I'm willing to hash out differences. It's the reason I was willing to go on with Jesse. You know, I'm like, I'm going to stay on my ground. But with people with whom I share so much more, I hope that you can come to see it my way. And I'm sure you hope that I can come to see yours. But if we don't have the conversation, that's when things fall apart. Especially when there's 80% of things we could talk about that way, Greal. Well, I'm definitely an enormous advocate for talking to people that you disagree with. You do it very well. Thank you. You do too. I just, the stance that I was coming to this conversation with is, you know, you're running a great campaign. But just to express the concerns that I'm hearing from folks who really want to be part of your campaign and excited for what it'll be like when you are hopefully a US Senator. I hope I can earn their support. And I hope that on the things we disagree on, we can continue to have the

58:31conversation. And, you know, my job is to serve everyone. Whether they vote for me, they didn't vote for me, they hate me, they love me. They're indifferent about me. Don't even know I exist. Like, that's the job. And I hope folks understand. Look, I've been trying to do that work my whole life. I'm a doctor who rebuild health departments. All my work, it's funny because I've been pulled into this international advocacy because of principle. But all my work has been about trying to get health care here in America. You know, I rebuilt a health department, led another one, wrote a book on health care. That's what I do. We're going to have to have you back on to talk about health care. And it's a shame because I do find your views on health care illuminating and really productive. Abdul El-Sayed is the Democratic Senate nominee from Michigan. Stay safe on the trail. Abdul, very much appreciate the open and honest dialogue. Thank you. I appreciate you guys having me. I'm grateful for your time. Grateful for your advocacy and I'm looking forward to the next conversation about Medicare for all. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task. Unless you have a partner like Shopify.

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