Stopping the narcotic tsunami in America

0:00Good day. Welcome to the New Day Report on the America Out Loud news topic video network. The counter momentum of spin. I'm your host, Dr. Franco Museo. To our friends listening in the United States and around the world, and I always say this, there's no lack of hard news items to keep our adrenaline going. All right, though, is to dissect out the nuances and underline causes and foundations of the events with which we come into contact continuously. Today's show is basically a sequel of last week's show. Last week was turning the tide on America's fentanyl crisis. This week, I'm calling it stopping the narcotic tsunami in America, stopping the narcotic tsunami in America. So I'm privileged. And I'm looking at this beautiful face right now. I'm going to introduce a world expert on this topic. This is our, I believe our age show together.

1:02Richard Baum, he asked me not to talk so much about himself. And I said last time, I will, I want to. I'm proud of you. This time we have so much to talk about. I'm not going to talk about him so much other than to say. He's a great person. He served at the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, ONDCP for two decades in many different positions. Through five presidential administrations, he was acting director of ONDCP or drugs are from March 2017 to February 2018 under President Trump's first term. Director Baum has both undergraduate and graduate degrees from Georgetown, as well as a Masters in Public Administration from the University of Colorado. He's an adjunct professor of public policy at Georgetown University's McCourt graduate school. Now, I have to get this in. Of course, he's got a ton of experiences and still his new book, what came out in February called Inside America's Opioid Crisis,

2:0312-Hard Lessons for today's drug war. It can be purchased. Well, I've read it twice. I'm not getting it. I've read it twice. Actually, I didn't tell him this, but some chapters three times. It can be purchased at amazon.com, Bloomsbury Publishing and Major Retail Bookstores. Director Baum, here we go. Thank you. Thank you as all of our previous shows and the one right now. Thank you for being with us. Great to be with you and looking forward to today's discussion. Was that good? Was that cut it short enough? That was improved. Thank you. It was improved. Just a quick pharmacology lesson. This is what we did last time. I believe a couple of other times. I think it's important though. Natural opioid. From the direct opium plant, I remember I was increased for two years and Turkey.

3:06There were these plants, beautiful plants everywhere. Got only knows what is hidden inside of them, the opium plants, the poppy plants. But you have the opium and are the natural opioids. I'm sorry coming from directly from the opium poppy plant. You have morphine, you have Cody, Thibet and opium. Now, semisynthetic. We're all very familiar with semisynthetic. They're made in the laboratory by chemically processing the natural opioid and then adjusting them or chemically modifying them. So they include drugs like oxycodone, oxycontin. If you've had major surgery, you're familiar with this hydrocodone. Hydromorphal, oxymorphal, but even heroin. The synthetic opioids are different. They require all precursor chemicals. And they're manufactured entirely from chemical ingredients, rather than being refined from what we just talked about,

4:07the natural sources, the opium, the opium poppy. So you have fentanyl. We're going to talk about today and we talked about yesterday last time. 50 to 100 times more important than morphine. And then you have my goodness, fentanyl analogs, you have carpentanyl. That's used especially for veterinary use. You have acetal fentanyl, you have other chemical modifications, and butyl fentanyl. You have methadone, you have tramadol. Well, unfortunately now the orthozeans, and on LinkedIn, director of bond just just talked about a New York Times article, 10 times more potent than fentanyl, 200 times more potent than heroin. You have the nitrazines, it goes on and on, and it can potentially go on forever in terms of so many different compound, carpentanyl, you have all fentanyl, you rent a fentanyl, stool fentanyl, all you need to do chemically is to adjust a side branch. A side group of the chemical. Now, before I unleash director of bond, this is interesting.

5:11It's somewhat for the better, but the breakdown of illicit drug use in 2025. So you got, this is from the substance abuse and mental health services administration. They've done surveys, they're good surveys. You got illicit use marijuana, 61.6 million people, hallucinogens 9.1 million, you have prescription opioids, misuse, 6.9 million people, you have tranquilizers, sedatives, misuse, 4.9 million cocaine, 4.2 million fentanyl, illicitly made fentanyl, 768,000 people. Now, substance use disorders different, total, 44.6 million people, 8, 12 or older, experienced last year, past year substance abuse disorder. That's a lot. That's over 15% of the population of the United States.

6:14So drug and alcohol disorders, the total is, let's see, 26 million with a drug use disorder led by marijuana, and of course, the stimulants and others opioid disorders. Alongside, 25.7 million with alcohol use disorder. So that's a lot. That's a lot. So I am going to go here with a new project. The director bomb is undergoing, which I think is wonderful. So it's a multi-multipron attack, Biocore RX. So please, he's now just recently been on the professional advisory board, and I want to say more than that, pharmaceutical advisory board, but please clarify. Yeah, it's the advisory board, and I'm a consultant to the company. Well, congratulations on that, because that's wonderful.

7:16That's wonderful. You bring a huge amount of experience. It's a company I did not know about until I found out what the year an advisor. And it supports, at least the way I'm looking at it, this multi-prong attack on the problem. You can't just, you know, an all-deference to you from a policy standpoint, that's one. That's a major one. But then you have so many angles of attacking the problem. Am I right or am I wrong? Yeah, and let me, as you know, as someone who is strongly committed in my whole career on drug policy, I want people to get individualized treatment and care. However they want to receive it, including use of medications, particularly for opioid use disorder. You know, what I was excited about Biocore RX, and I've been following the company for about 10 years,

8:19going back to when I was at O and DCP earlier, is, you know, they have two products in particular that I just wanted to mention. One is the Samira, which helps people to detox, for detox from an opioid use disorder, opioid dependence, and eases the pain and suffering with draw. And I have to say, Frank, go, when I was director, I visited Jails and Prisons, and some of them have developed treatment programs. But, you know, back 10 years ago, and I think still today, if someone is arrested and sentenced and they're in jail, they often get no assistance in managing withdrawal. And I remember the warden saying that, yeah, they basically lie on the concrete floor with a bucket until they work through their withdrawal, which is really barbaric,

9:20because there are medications to help people, and Samira is one of them that Biocore RX offers their others, but just the concept of making people suffer unnecessarily when they easily can access an FDA-approved medication to ease those that acute suffering, I think is really important. Sure. So this is in the United States, of course, and were the majority of these prisoners that you visited there because of drugs in and of themselves, or had they committed crimes plus they were in drugs? Yeah, I, you know, obviously it varies a bit, but most of the men were involved with drug dealing to support their habit, and most of the women, I was in their pod where they live, they have a kind of a therapeutic community, and I met separately with a 30 men and then the 30 women, and most of the women were involved in prostitution and other criminal activities.

10:22So usually, you know, someone doesn't get a long sentence for possession, usually they're involved in drug markets or other illegal activities, and although it does happen that people get arrested for possession, usually those sentences are pretty short. So, but the point is, is that, you know, when, when you're, when someone's in jail or prison, what you want them to do is to go through withdrawal and, and give them help and assistance, so that when they get out, they can rebuild their lives. They're gonna serve their debt to society. And I think too often, we're just warehousing people. When that is precious time, right, for people to begin to get, to work on their treatment and recovery. So, so it's important to take care of those folks. So that, that's important with withdrawal management when their, or medications is, is important. There's doesn't do, doesn't help anybody

11:23to make them suffer like that, or through withdrawal. But, and then, and then the other product that, that a bio-corrox has under development is an implant, which can work for three months. It's a pellet that can insert, inserted through a small incision. And that'll work like daily, buvenorphine or daily methadone. And, well, it works in a different way. It's a different type of medication, but would give them extended protection from use of opioids. And there's understudy for this now-treksone, a pellet implant is how it would benefit for those people who have a methamphetamine use disorder. And that is still working through its process, but it would be really, very important because there's no medication right now

12:24to help people with methamphetamine. So that's potential. So I'm excited to partner with the company. Yeah. And help support them get their products out to people who need it. They're doing a bunch of other things too. It's not only medication or pharmaceutical-wise. What I was reading here is that anyone struggling with addictive disorders to address this. It was so they have a B-diction recovery program. So they're independent treatment centers and physicians in the US. And it consists of the proprietary cognitive behavioral therapy. So that's in tandem. That's in tandem in conjunction with the pharmaceutical aspect of that. And then they have support mobile applications too. They have apps that support them, which is interesting. And yes, most of the time, or many times it includes the medications as well.

13:26But what I find interesting is it's that sole destruction, discretion of the physician, the physician, and you can tell me, may or not be part of the company as to what to prescribe or whether to prescribe anything in consultation with the patients. Yeah. The pharmaceutical products and a behavioral health service that companies could use. And there's still a lot of debate over that combination of medication and behavioral therapy. Yes. However, my view is people should have both. Yeah. That it's important for long-term recovery. I agree. I mean, as a physician, I don't like to get medications if I don't need to. And in fact, patients respond very well to that. Or they come in with, you know, 20, 30 minutes. That's the way to it. This is too much. Let's see if we can cut this down a little bit because they may be interacting with each other

14:27and they probably are. Or to start a new medication. Now, the antithesis of that I can be very, very aggressive with medications as well at the right time and when they're needed. In this situation, I agree with what you just said. That it's typically not only cognitive behavioral therapy. I mean, you could talk to me if I have a substance use disorder. I know that what I'm doing is hurting myself and others. I know that. So you could talk to me until I'm blue in the face and have me do a cognitive therapy until I'm blue in the face. But now I'm going to need a joint of help. I'm going to need pharmacological help most likely. Yeah, I mean, these drugs today, these street drugs are very potent and it's difficult. It's difficult to step down from using them and to function well without some support for a medication. But I think the principle should,

15:28this is the treatment plan should be worked out through a partnership between a counselor, a therapist, and the patient and the patient needs to have some autonomy in making these treatment choices for them. But I think it's pretty clear that with the strength of listed opioids today, that people need something more than just the behavioral therapy. Right. Right. Going back to the prisons where you were visiting, I remember when I was in Athens and Greece and sometime in Turkey. Do you remember the movie? It was horrible. Well, I think it gained a number of prizes. Midnight Express. Midnight Express. Do you remember that? About a Turkish prison? Well, that's what it was like. And I was visiting Americans who were involved with drugs and military and some civilians as well. And then some civilians were American civilians

16:30who were in Greek and Turkish prisons. They were not treated very well. And if they had a, they were withdrawing. Same kind of thing about a bucket, you know, even if that, even if that. Yeah, you know, it's, I'm glad you mentioned it because it is barbaric. And if someone is arrested and held overnight, they're essentially, it's cruel and unusual punishment to not give them some basic care. And that's why I'm so also supportive of what a lot of drug treatment courts are doing now, where, you know, the way it works and I've been to some drug courts and you see somebody walk in. I write about this in my book, you know, in what is a really bad day, right? They arrested the night before, the day before and they show up the next morning in the court and they talk to the judge. They're often going through withdrawal. Their life is interrupted because they got arrested. They don't know what's going to happen to them. And it's, you can see in how they walk

17:32in their body language that they're hurting. And a lot of drug courts now, rather than what normally happens in a drug court traditionally, is they see the judge and if they're eligible for a drug treatment court instead of arrests, the judge says fine, releases the person and come back in a report in a few weeks or a month and will start the program. But in Buffalo, 10 years ago, the judge was finding people were overdosing and dying from fentanyl between when they saw the judge and were admitted to the program for the drug court until they had a report. And they started providing treatment right away. And that's what they're trying to do in more drug courts now is say, okay, we are glad to have you, we're gonna start treatment and we're gonna hold your chargers in advance for 90 days, 120 days. And you can come back and we will deal with your charges then because he wants to keep people alive.

18:33And I just think like the justice system has to think about those individuals and what they're going through and have a bit of compassion understanding about the incredible suffering from withdrawal, from a powerful drug like opioids. So that's actually that's encouraging. But going back to overseas, let me tell you something, it's a different ballgame in Turkey. As per that movie, that movie was correct by the way, as a vomitus as it was and Greece is no better in certain prisons. No, you're there for years. You're there for many years actually and as an American or as a Greek or as a Turk, right? No, they don't mess around. There is no compassion, zero. And you're there for multiple years and many people die. Many people die in prison. They do. They're overseas. So I wanna go back a little bit

19:34so this pallet, this insurmable pallet is fascinating to me as a physician to now Trexon, which has been around of course, that Narcan for a long time now. But it's called not even having a trade name, but BICX104. And that's what happens with medications that are experimental, so to speak. Now, you were mentioning to me on fair that now Trexon is now Trexon. In other words, you can take it orally, you can give it as an injection subcutaneous lead or intramuscularly in search. And that's what many hospital or EMS people, you yourself carry it in your car, not for you. But if you ever come into contact. Yeah, we really encourage people when they're walking around in their backpack or purse is you carry an unlock cell and if you happen to have on someone who might need it and you know, you try and help them because every minute is crucial

20:37when someone is struggling with a potentially fatal overdose. Absolutely. So right now, I want to focus in on the Maltrex on the implantable palate. So what we have, we have phase one, phase two, phase three, phase four, so I'll talk about it in a second. But there are ongoing studies. So for example, this particular palate for when we start opioid use disorder and there, I believe completed phase one study, starting phase two, the palate for alcohol used disorder. Chemically, I find that fascinating that there's a number of different overlaps for the disorders. And of course, methamphetamine, which you were talking about, that disorder. Now, that is in preclinical studies right now for methamphetamine used disorder. Not for alcohol used disorder and opioid use disorders, they're completing or have completed phase one studies.

21:38Now, what does that mean? Preclinical is before you're even dealing with human beings. You're going through the chemistry, you're going through the biological effectiveness, you're going through with the animal studies. Phase one is you introduce the treatment to human beings for the very first time. So, Naloxone, it's been used as I said in different ways, the palate, no. So the phase one studies were that, they're completing those, just to see, and they actually have healthy volunteers. Or even patients with the specific conditions that go several months, and they see basically side effects. That's the main and to find a safe dosage range. Now, phase two is to see and make sure it does what it's supposed to do, the effectiveness. That's about to start, opioid use disorder and alcohol disorder. And then, and I believe they're open, yeah, in Miami,

22:41I'll talk about that in a minute. At phase three, it's much more, the monitor side effects, many, many more patients in these studies, and they compare it to treatment to standard care. In other words, placebo, and phase four, phase four is post-marketing studies. So the one well-buterin, this particular study, I find fascinating, it's BICX 104, that's the palate, with well-buterin, the appropriate, for opioid dependency. There is no placebo, in other words. I've said opioid, but that's the appropriate is with methamphetamine treatment. For methamphetamine? Because when I'm looking at yes, yes, it is, it is. But then there's a second one here. And I'm looking to make sure that this is the, let me see, no? It's also four, it's also four, because it's ongoing. And they're recruiting in the Miami area.

23:42Opioid use disorder. And you have, group one has two palettes, plus, youppropian, group two has one palette, plus, youppropian, group three has one palette, no beapropian, and group four has IAM, Dimitral, and at least they're finished phase one. Now, that's exciting. The cost, I have no idea. You may know about that. I don't know how that's gonna work. Yeah, I think that'll be set later on in the process. Yeah. But it's exciting to find out. And we were excited a couple years ago, NIDA provided around 11 million dollars for a grant to study. So these are grants, yeah. Study the palette for methamphetamine, because the whole sort of drug policy, community, medical community is just so anxious

24:43to find something to help people dependent on the extremely potent methamphetamine, produced, manufactured in Mexican superlabs. That is what people are consuming today. It's a very dangerous product. So we need a medication. And so this is one with some potential. Dr. Bon, we're gonna hold for a commercial break, and we're gonna come right back and go into what's gonna happen in a week and a half that an incredible conference at Georgetown University. Hold tight, everyone. Successful weight loss is about changing the gut brain relationship with food. I'm Dr. Kelly Victory with the Wellness Company. If you don't like needles, you'll love oral dissolving Terzepatide RX. This doctor design solution works by targeting the GLP1 and GIP receptors that influence appetite and metabolism. Terzepatide helps with food portion reduction and satiety while changing how the brain responds to engineered sugars and unhealthy fats. And unlike injections, these are fast, absorbing,

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26:47America out loud.News is that place to awaken your heart, soul, and mind to the outbound truth. Well, welcome back everyone. We're with the Penny Director Bond. So one thing I didn't just to start this segment, I didn't mention is I mentioned to people in this country, unfortunately, with substance use disorders, but not the deaths. And there are at least per the centers for CDC, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. There were an estimated 70,000 overdose deaths in 2025. Now, that's a lot. Now, there are less. There are about 14, 15% decrease from 2024, which is good. But there's still a whole lot of work to do. So involving opioids, for example, so the illicit narcotics like heroin

27:48and then the semi-synthetics. And I guess you can add semi-synthetics too. It dropped to an estimated 44,564 in 2025, which is down, which is down. But this is interesting that I saw over the US, they're down, but in most states. But there's a few states, including Emexico and Colorado and Arizona, Minnesota, where there was a slight increase actually. So I remember reading about Paul Martin, the moderator of what we're going to talk about here is confronting the next wave, the absolutely incredible conference that's going to take place. That he had started United Against Fentanyl because of the increase in deaths in rural, I think, Northern Emexico, if I'm not wrong about that. Yeah, he is Paul Martin, is the CEO of United Against Fentanyl. And he started this group and bringing families

28:50and impacted parents who lost kids, often adult kids, to the drug crisis, the opioid crisis. And I'm excited to be on the board and supporting the working United Against Fentanyl that's trying to bring that sort of passion, energy, and painful personal knowledge of families and parents, to policymakers, to try and drive change to get more help and support. So other families don't have to suffer that ultimate pain that they did of losing a loved one. Isn't that interesting that when we're given data information, not only professionally, but about anything? And we look at that data, but it needs to be dissected many times. So although there is a decrease, 15%, it's nothing to laugh at in terms of the year before and overall, it's continuing to decrease since the COVID era,

29:52but it's still a major problem. But no, you look at New Mexico and Arizona and Minnesota and Colorado, it's actually increasing. So isn't that, that's interesting. Yeah, you do see this geographic variation. And I don't think people know for sure exactly why, but I think the theory that makes sense is that Fentanyl penetrated the Northeast and the Southeast earlier and then spread west over time. So some of those areas were not as impacted and there may also be a difference in the potency of the Fentanyl of a synthetic old view. That's interesting. On the west coast. That's interesting. But the reality as an E said it exactly, perfectly Dr. Muzio, is that we're so relieved that the overdose trend is downwards and downwards. Overall, so that is important. But it's still extremely high. It's a football stadium full of Americans

30:55who die each year from the drug crisis. And also, chronic addiction isn't down. You mentioned the numbers at the start of the show. And there's so many Americans affected via opulent use, stimulant use, sedative use, and often polydrug use where people have more than one substance. It's also appreciate you mentioning alcohol. My background is specifically in drug policy, but a lot of the things that people like me are supporting for treatment, recovery, prevention, also are related to alcohol use. And we know that that is a crisis as well. Let me ask you this. I just thought of this. But many times with children or not children, but high school and so forth, marijuana may be the gateway drug. You start with marijuana and then you proceed along. Many times, at least what I've read and seen. Colorado, California, is known to be very liberal

31:57with marijuana. Could there be any in Colorado, or where else? I'm sorry. Yeah, in the Arizona. Arizona. Yeah. And you Mexico. So am I wrong just to connect the dots? Say, well, wait a minute. They're liberal with marijuana. Could that be one reason? Yeah, Dr. Me too. I do think that that is a reasonable theory. And I know anecdotally from my conversations with Paul Martin, who deals directly with so many families, is that often with their families say that it's that with their kid, it started first with marijuana, but he marijuana and alcohol. However, there isn't really clear evidence. So I don't want to say that. Right. No, there isn't. No, it's not a scientific clear. But I would say that 20 million people with a marijuana use disorder in this country is a concern in and of itself.

32:58And I do worry about young people initiating their substance with this highly potent marijuana from their teenagers. And it's something to worry about. And we certainly don't want young people to put their brain through that kind of risk. It's something that you understand as a doctor, as the physician, is that the brain is rapidly developing. And if you want it to function at its best, you don't want to do the damage in those teenage years. No. So even adults and well past the formation of the brain at the age of they say 31, 32, 33, although I'm going to tell you something, I've been told I would increase this creativity and especially for musicians. Now the majority of musicians who've used drugs were in their 20s.

33:59Were in their 20s. And they've come out with some excellent pieces in terms of music, but or the Beatles, Lucy in the sky with diamonds. What is that LSD maybe? Maybe. And remember Keith Richards of the Rolling Stone? Well, he's still. They just recorded an album in London, by the way. And he's not going to stop. Now one thing about Keith Richards, he was a heavy drug user. All of them were in the Rolling Stones. But they actually stopped, by the way. They're not doing drugs anymore. And they haven't for years and years and years. But the legacy of doing drugs is supposedly a wonderful thing in the music industry, whereas it's really not, by the way. It's the opposite. It's the antithesis. Well, that is a whole complicated issue. It's such a huge Beatles fan of the Rolling Stones fan.

35:00Yeah. And I think it's important to say that some people use these substances and end up being not having negative consequences, right? Just like some people. I don't know. A lot of people drink alcohol, right? And they can manage it. They have a few drinks, maybe on the weekend. And that's different. That's their highly functional. But some people use drugs the same way. And I'm not, so obviously against drugs. But I do feel it's like Russian roulette for young people. Yeah, there may be some people who, for whatever reason, have some protections. And they just aren't so negatively affected. But playing the odds means, do not expose your brain to these substances when you're a teenager, because you're really taking on risk that with potentially irreversible consequences. So that's always my advice.

36:00But I think it's also just to be straight on the science, right? People are very, and you don't know who is going to be have their life destroyed by using marijuana at 15 or 16, and who is just going to bounce back. But it's a risky choice. It is very, very risky. I was looking at some things yesterday listening to some music. And I don't know if you're a fan of Motown at all. So like the Jackson Fod, you know, and I don't know if you know Wilson Pickett. Wilson Pickett, you do. Well, guess what? So one day, my office, several offices, but one in Sterling, Virginia, Northern Virginia, not far from Washington, T.C. I walk in an office. And what, first of all, I'm told there's a very special person in the office. And I said, what do you mean a special person? So well, and I was looking at everybody in the waiting room were asking prodigriffs from this particular person.

37:02I said, who is this? He looks familiar. He looks familiar. So I walk in. It's 9 o'clock in the morning. And there's just a huge rick of alcohol everywhere at 9 o'clock in the morning. So it was Wilson Pickett. And he was en route to where was he going Montreal or something. And then I got to know him very well. And unfortunately, he died a number of years later from alcoholic cardiomyopathy. In other words, his heart just completely gave out. From alcohol, I told him, look, you are such a gifted artist. And what are you doing living in Ashburn, just here, not Los Angeles, he did before, but New York City. But what are you doing? What are you doing? And it doesn't have to necessarily be fentanyl. It doesn't have to be narcotics. But alcohol. And he couldn't give me an answer. He could not give me an answer. But anyway, I took care of him for years. And his music deteriorated actually.

38:04Because I was looking up his songs, Mustang Sally. Oh, yeah, that's a big one. And I know. What a great star. And yeah, it's a shame for those. A lot of obviously, musicians have overdosed and died. And it's very tragic for him as chronic. Yeah. And then for the world to lose these talented musicians. Oh, man. He did a lot with Ringo Star, actually. And now I'm thinking, Ringo Star has, I don't know if you know this, has a house here in Northern Virginia. No, no, Potomac Maryland and Potomac Maryland. Maybe that's where that came from. I'll have to stop by. OK, so confronting the next wave. And I want to talk a little bit about the different sessions. Because they are overwhelming. You start the first one. Federal policy supply and demand along with Regina Lebel. You're both former acting director White House O and DCP, director stars. And I just want to talk just as a little taste of all of these sessions, because these are all kind of fascinating.

39:07So can you just wet our app and tell you as to what you're going to talk about? Yeah, I know that I am very laser focused on the new Congress. Whoever is going to be elected, whoever is going to be in charge, there's a lot of work to be done in removing obstacles to effective treatment and recovery and providing grants and financial support and doing research and data collection. And I'd like to see the community of people who care about the drug problem to organize around the agenda for next year. And that was part of what my book tried to hire. Yeah, yeah. So, and then of course, rightly, we're focused on, we need to focus on the new Congress that's going to be seated in January. But presidential candidates, Republicans and Democrats, will start running for office almost immediately after the midterms. And we, who care about drug problems, want them, all them, both sides,

40:11who include in their platforms, what they're going to do to help take on this evolving opioid, probably drug crisis. So that's kind of my focus. And General LaValle, she obviously is a great expert as well. And I know she's very concerned about loss of medical coverage, Medicaid care for those with a substance use disorder and making sure we don't lose the progress that we've made by dropping people out of the treatment and recovery support they need. How could you not as a presidential candidate, or as a senator or house candidate, for example, congressional candidate? How can you not include a large portion of your platform or at least a significant portion to this? Because this is a huge, huge problem. I think to be honest, Dr. Miesio,

41:11is that there's such a large number of needs in the country. And there are. And so that Washington is, oh, is this competition, right? There are housing issues. There's broader healthcare issues. There's obviously a defense and national security issues. And people have to slice up the budget pies in different ways. And sometimes there's less empathy for people who have struggle with addiction than there are for other causes. So I think that it's important for people to come together like the organization. Absolutely. United against fentanyl and speak up for those that need and deserve this kind of a long way to get. Completely nonpartisan. It's 100% nonpartisan. It doesn't matter the political party. It doesn't. But your job when you were a drug czar and afterwards is not an easy job when you're dealing.

42:12I am sure you and Sarah Carter right now, you have your own political beliefs. They evolved, hers have evolved. But you're dealing somewhat with politics too. Are you not when you're fighting for money? Yes. You've got to navigate the Madisonian political system and get the funds that you need. And you need to explain why your priority matters. Because you can never take it for granted because it's a competitive environment. Unless all the lawmakers have their own children, adult children, or what have you, confronting these problems. But I would say that there is compassion and interest in the issue. But whether that means people are going to prioritize that in their budget aid and their legislating, that really depends on the anti-drug community and impacted families and experts coming forward, which is why we're so happy that we're gathering

43:12on September 26 at Georgetown for this summit to talk about these key policy issues and an agenda for next year. I highly, highly recommend anyone in the Washington, DC area or anywhere around in the United States or even around the world. Please look this up, United against fentanyl, Saturday, September 26, 4 to 8 PM. Before that, I think the day before that is the walk. No, the morning up. The morning, morning. It's going to be a historic gathering in DC on the national mall to walk and to rally. And there'll be families with posters and pictures of their loved one. And it's going to be an important occasion of people coming together to walk. And then later, many of people will also join us at Georgetown University, Capital Hill campus for the policy discussion.

44:13So it's bringing together that sort of personal rally and demonstration and commitment with the policy. And which is why I'm such a fan of the United against fentanyl because they're bringing together that sort of personal families that are impacted with the policies and the budget and the programs. 100% and by the way, I would suspect you would allow me to say it's not only fentanyl, but other semi-subcourse or other synthetic Medicaid and illicit drugs. And yes, I'm glad you mentioned it because United against fentanyl is the name and it's what organized the effort and many of these families were impacted by a fentanyl and overdoses, but there are also other drugs, stimulants, sedatives that are impacting people. Oh my God. And we include everybody under that umbrella. You know, my cousin, Grace, press her heart. She's in Georgia outside of Atlanta and she texted me a couple of days ago and said, you know, I listened to your last,

45:14she listens to all the podcast, the shows and podcasts. And she said, we were at the house of our, I think it was a neighbor, very, very good friend. And I think it was the day that their daughter died. She took a pill and we'll talk about that. I didn't know from an internet or a friend that was laced with fentanyl, unbeknownst to her, unbeknownst to her. You mentioned this in other shows that we had as well about fentanyl being laced unbeknownst to the people. We're gonna, who take them, we're gonna have to stop right here. One more commercial break and I can't wait to talk to you about the rest of this confronting the next wave and your also, your perspective on a book by Emily Dofton. So please hold on. Are you tired of struggling with low energy? We get it. That's why we created organic energy juice. In just one minute, you'll have clean, natural energy all day and never struggle with low energy again. And it tastes amazing. And there's no toxic chemicals or stimulants that make you crash. You shouldn't have to struggle with low energy

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47:14for an exclusive offer. Have you been looking for a healthy snack from the go? Well, not all energy bars are soft and sugary. Bear bars or a crunchy, savory bar made from just six simple natural ingredients. Bear bars are plant-based, organic, gluten-free, contain six grams of protein and are low temperature dried for a unique crunch. Most energy bars are based on chocolate or fruit and are held together with serps or sweeteners. To learn more, just visit bearbar.com slash out loud. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Welcome back. Welcome back. We are working with Steve from Director Ball. And I want to talk about session two and session three. Now, you're not going to be running those sessions, but you're going to be in attendance, obviously. So the second one is social media and youth culture. And then it's with Jim Crowdy and Emily Duffton.

48:15We're going to talk a little bit about Emily Duffton's book and your critique of her book in the Lancet. So the social media and youth culture, I could just imagine that, for example, that the social media stuff kills me and no pun intended. But drug dealers, they use mainstream apps like Snapchat and Instagram. TikTok to connect with miners and young adults and they utilize private messaging in order to code emojis to arrange transactions. I mean, this is a full-time job, I would imagine. I wouldn't do too well in this if I were a drug dealer, but counterfeit pill danger. Just like I was mentioning to you that my cousin Grace was talking about with her friend and algorithmic exposure. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. We didn't have this when we were growing up. But I would imagine that life as a teenager

49:15and adolescent young adult is actually much more difficult now than what it was when we were growing up. It's a really difficult challenge. And I just worry so much about the advertising that happens on these social media company platforms or the direct messaging of people trying to sell quantum-quote prescription pills that are actually fraudulent and contain fentanyl or the dangerous drug. And they know that, they know that, correct? The sellers know that. Yeah. And the buyer may or may not know often, if they're trying to buy, say, Xanix, as an example, they don't know it, they think they're getting Xanix. People are so used to buying stuff online that they become careless about checking the source. And there's also this wider issue with social media. So we're gonna have a good discussion about that and about how to support and protect young people

50:20so that they're not exposed to these tremendous risks of today's drug market. So they are, in a sense, adolescents are biologically not trained but wired to seek a pure approval. And they do take risks. Again, the age of their brain, the chronological age of their brain. So they're very susceptible to predatory online content and of course, pure pressure. And my son, when he was in grade school, there was a campaign, how is it? Do you know how Nancy Reagan would say, just say no? Well, his campaign or his school was dare to be different, dare to be different. So they were trying to teach the kids, even though in elementary school, they were not taking drugs there, really starts most of it in high school, college. But dare to be different, dare to say no. And that's important because, as I said,

51:22part of the problem is the neurologic development, which is normal. In other words, it's normal to seek pure approval. It's normal for all of these things in a developing brain and with a developing brain. And of course, times have changed. We're not, for example, the 1920s when there was a depression. And the number one priority was being able to eat, right? Drugs, you know, I'm sure drugs were available, but nothing, nothing like this. We've attained a very, very high rich standard in our country. And part of that is wonderful. But the other part is that you have the mass media, outgrowth of mass media, and then you have the negatives. And big negatives, big negatives, feeding this huge problem. This problem didn't exist in the 1920s.

52:24Yeah, I think it's important that we're talking about it, that social media companies feel some sense of responsibility for protecting kids. So, big time. And as you mentioned, we're also having a writer and historian Emily Duffton speaking on this panel with Jim Crowdy and Emily. You know, you said that I critiqued her book and I guess that's accurate. No, critique is a good end of this. I know that what you meant. But I did our book review that was published in the Lancet. We're gonna talk about that in a minute. And she is just extremely knowledgeable historian about the development of addiction medications and the process that we went through. And what was learned in the 70s, and she writes about it in detail, but how it was Richard Nixon and the Nixon administration that launched the first national treatment system with medications with methadone.

53:26And it was really a pioneer and it, you know, not saying he was a perfect president, but he was really a leader in terms of drug treatment. He was. So I just wanted to get that in. It's a little less than a time. No, no, no, we're gonna talk about a lot of things now. We still have time. The session three, international diplomacy and corruption. This that is gonna be very interesting. You know, we have on this panel two incredible experts, Vonda Thelba Brown from Brookings Institution, is the top expert outside of the US government on Fetnell and China. And she can talk about the challenges in detail and looking forward to seeing her again and hearing what she has to say and talking to the audience. And the other person is a great, also a good friend of mine, Greg Gajanis. And he, in addition to earlier in his career

54:27where he worked at the DEA and he worked at the National Security Councils, which is how I got to know him when he worked at the NSC at the White House. And then he went over to the, oh fact, the Office of Financial Action Control working on the sanctions against narcotics traffickers, which is a way the US government puts pressure and imposes consequences on traffickers of chemicals and drugs that we can't extradite to the United States to face justice here. But we can pose, impose financial penalties on them and their companies. And so Greg is one of the top experts in the world on that subject. So this is gonna be a, oh it's gonna be wonderful. Really good panel. It's gonna be a great panel, just like we're doing with Iran right now. I don't know how many more in Russia, how many more sanctions we, I guess we're actually trying to influence our friends or allies with sanctions against Iran. And hopefully this can extend over to our allies with sanctions against China and of course Mexico

55:29in terms of the supply chain. And Dr. Miseo, and these sanctions are for individuals and their companies as opposed to government sanctions. Although they also do government sanctions. But they prevent people from getting a visa and they travel to the US. It prevents them from accessing the US banking system, which is critical because most international banks are connected to the banking system. So it does impose a penalty of course for some of these criminals that sell chemicals to make drugs like fentanyl. We'd love to extrav the US and put them in jail for 25 years. But sometimes we can't reach them if they're living in China. And so these sanctions is a way to to punish them and reach them and impede their ability to. I hope so. But the cartels we've spoken so much and you've taught me so much about the cartels. I look enthusiastically, being with you every week

56:31on the count of my money. Spend please note that the show and all the shows on America out loud talk radio, go to your favorite podcast networks within 24 hours, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, Tune in, Amazon, I heart radio, I'm honor many others. Have a great day and God bless.