Shonen Showdown 25: TsunDebating: Naruto vs. Black Clover`

0:00Peek outdated, keynote overrated, shown in activated. Welcome to shown in showdown where we are dedicated to making your shown in brain rot worse. And we have another fight on our hands, folks. We're going to a little debate, a little foreshadowed. Think I'm a jigger because I think we brought this up at least. I brought this up a few times on the podcast proper. It's time to talk about two near and dear shown ins. Isn't that right, Lady Emery? Are you going to be a Hokage or the lizard king? I mean, wizard ring. I mean wizard king. Either way, I'm excited to break this down because you are right.

1:00You have been prefacing this a number of times. And I'm finally letting you do it. Finally, letting you talk and debate and breaking down this proper head to head shown in battle. So the question will be, which is the spear you're shown in black clover or Naruto? But before that, I do think you need to break down manga timelines real, real quick. And what we will be encompassing today for our final listeners. Absolutely. This is one of our few recurring segments soon debating where we will be debating this time. Black clover versus Naruto, the Naruto manga, which started back in 1999 and has since been completed. The Black clover manga, which started in 2015 and at time of recording is entering. Slash has entered its final chapter. So that will be concluding pretty soon. So this is a timely discussion. The Naruto manga has obviously been a very popular one.

2:06It's part of the big three. Black clover, part of this pseudo quote unquote new big three or was attempted to be. We can have a whole discussion on big threes at some point. The anime for Naruto has been broken down into three technically segments. First is Naruto. Second is Naruto Shippuden. And third is Boruto. And for the sake of this debate, because otherwise, and would be way too shackled, we're not going to talk about Baruto. Oh, thank God. So that will not be part of the discussion because I feel like you could agree that would just completely weigh down the argument pretty significantly. I think so. And because we each love to take a side, I'm going to let Raggedy pick his side. I think I know what he's been wanting to promote, but let's just make this pretty clear cut as we can. So what do you think is the superior showman, Raggedy? Well, I'll be taking the Black clover side. And again, just to clarify, we're only going to be talking about the anime itself.

3:10While manga stuff might be mentioned to augment the argument that it's a conversation about, which is the superior shown in anime. So Black Clovers second season, which is upcoming and, you know, is not out yet. Obviously will not be a major part of this discussion either. So this is a fight between what has currently, currently aired. Yes. Since you let me pick the side, I will let you pick the first discussion point. Oh, boy. Okay. So this is going to be a discussion point near and dear to my heart. And I already know that I'm going to, that my Naruto is going to fail this for a lot of reasons. I'm going to try and build it up. I'm going to try and find, I'm going to find it. I'm going to find it. I want to talk about the women in each area. And the reason I bring this up is it's something that, like I said, it's a near and dear debate

4:13that I've had. And it's been a problem that we've seen and shown in. So to start, the women in Black Clover. Why are so many women throwing themselves at Asta? Why? That's a, that's a concern and a problem. He's fine. Have you seen those abs? He's not daddy energy man. He's not, he's not a dad. He shouldn't be a daddy. But why are the women throwing themselves at him? And oh my god, I struggle with, I think it might be Captain Charlotte is her name. I have to double check. From the Blue Rose Guild. Yes, she starts out when you first meet her. She is a strong female character. She is the leader of her own guild. I love her energy. I like her design. It's not over the top wearing a bikini looking at Yvonne Asta.

5:13And you think that she's going to be great? Nope, nope, she too. She's got a thing for Yami and it's bad. And it is her sole character. And that is frustrating. I want you to break this down because especially in the early Black Clover stages, very frustrating. So I want you to try and bring me around to your point and then I'll get into Naruto which does have the same problem. Sakura, find a different, find a different love interest. My god. Sasuke is the worst love interest you could have picked. But I think I feel like we'll get into that. I want you first to try and defend your Black Clover here. Well, first I would say it is a show end. So these issues will be mired throughout most shown in properties. I am not going to argue that Black Clover is a shining pillar on the hill with female representation. That being said, I don't think it does a particularly egregious job. And I mean, my notes on this section, you have a whole list of things under Naruto.

6:17And I just wrote Lamau because seriously, we're going to talk about the women in Naruto being better than others shown in. That's where it fails the most. This is why Naruto is the 5 out of 5 shown in scores because of how horribly the women are represented. I don't even have, I will defend the Black Clover one, but I don't even have to win this argument. Just the existence of Naruto's women just does the work for me. Also, you can't say that it doesn't make sense for the women to be throwing themselves at Asak. He's not a daddy and then get mad when the woman throws herself at Yamie who is very clearly a daddy. But you got to pick a side. You got to pick a side. You got me there. You got me there. Yamie is a, he is a daddy. He is indeed a daddy. He's a drunk daddy. So not so responsible, but daddy's company all shapes, sizes and odors. Oh, man, people can't see. I'm just dying over here to quickly return back to Naruto having not a great set of women.

7:23We talked about Sakura. This is going to be really hard for me because I really struggled with this. Ladies, Akata is great to have a Hokage. I love a female Hokage. The one thing I have to give up though when it comes to Naruto is what Reggie pointed out. And he pointed this out way back during my rewatch. He said, keep an eye on how she becomes Hokage. And you find out it's not even her own dream. She's just doing it. She wasn't even the first choice. I just, I have to have a little mini rant about that. Wasn't the first choice. Not even her dream. She's just kind of doing it because she has nothing better to do in my opinion. Speaking of drugs too, on top of that. Oh, a drunk gambler. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. With the women of Black Clover, yes, there are going to be some that are not as well fleshed out.

8:24It's the nature of Shonen. And it's also the nature of a large ensemble cast. Is that you're not going to get every character with the most fleshed out story. But I would argue significantly more of the women, including some of the ones who throw themselves at Osta, so to speak, do have their own separate motivations. So you have, or just are bad asses in their own right. Marial Lyona, for a million, is the baddest of bad ass women. And she is not even close to a typical. She is very much what many would probably argue is and bodies masculine traits. She is significantly stronger than almost any other character that you have like Yami, or you have obviously what Osta and Unor are going to become. And like the villains, but outside of them with the side character, she's arguably the strongest.

9:24On top of that, with regards to what we just talked about, ladies and ade, she did not want to lead her family or her wizard guild. They wanted her to because she's so fucking bad ass. And she's like, nah, my brother can fucking deal with that bullshit. I'm going to go have fun. And the only reason she comes back is to deal with her family and the shit falling out in the kingdom. The beyond her, we have Charmy, who I think is a very fun and interesting character. Yes, she has a crush on you now, but that is not her soul. That is not her soul defining characteristic. Sorry, it's a crush on you know, and being obsessed with eating everything. And also, you know, the dwarf stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's good. There's more going on. There's Sekre, or I'm forgetting the name Nero, I think is what she's the bird. Yeah, she has, and yes, she does have a whole love story thing with the original wizard king, but there's a whole

10:30rich backstory with her. And that's her past. That's not even like what current is about. That I have to see that because I enjoy that while that's her past, it's not her now. Her now is very different personality. Yes, you put sister Lillian here. So here's because sister Lillian, one, okay, one, so I have not obviously run the manga, can't read, makes it very hard to do those things, but I don't know the story really past where the anime is. There is more that is going to happen with sister Lillian, I guess, spoilers, very vague spoilers that have nothing to do with Asa. Also, Asa very specifically does not get with sister Lillian, at least as far as I've seen in the anime, she rejects him at every single turn, does not even remotely entertain it at all. So if anything, the sister Lillian stuff is more of an argument against Asa, which we can talk about in a different segment. So I'm going to still slot her in here. She takes care of the orphans. She has her whole separate thing that she's doing unrelated to

11:32any love interest at all. Vanessa, yeah, don't slouch shame Vanessa. Okay, let her dress how she wants to dress. I think she's let her be a drunkard. Let her be a drunkard. She can do that. Women can do that to M. Okay. Just say. Oh, God. Oh, yeah. I am Vanessa. I've got both like a frustration, especially in her early depiction, but such a soft spot related to like the witches and stuff too, that happened. Oh, yeah. I mean, her is her depiction the greatest? No, but similar to like, I'm blanking out her name from fairy tale, who's a very similar character who is like, you know, half naked, drunkard gambler. It's because that's what she wants to do. It's, you know, that's her personality. Who she is. It's a variety of female characters, not Sakura A, Sakura B, Sakura C, Sakura D. You know, there's even Princess Lillia Pechka, who is the leader of the Harking. There's there are a lot of female characters. I would even argue if you don't like Noelle,

12:33because I know a lot of people don't like Noelle. She still has other things going on just besides being the Sundare who likes the main character. She really likes him, though, even her other stuff going on involves Asta somehow. Like when she's trying to get a hold of her water power so she can take them down to the mermaid kingdom, it's Asta who's with her. Asta this. Asta that I, she drives me nuts, which is to say that I still love Mimosa, but Mimosa is really obsessed with him too. So. I would say Mimosa's worst, because at least Noelle has all the stuff with her family, improving herself, and she even has physical fights against her family to prove herself. There are other things that she does beyond just the Asta stuff. So I get the frustration, but if you're gonna pick one to be the worst example, it's probably Mimosa, because she doesn't really have anything else going on at all. But again, Naruto has has nothing. Hey, Naruto has 1010. How dare you? We have 1010. 1010 does even have a fucking last name. That's because that's how cool she is.

13:37She's just 1010. Just 1010. Okay. To, uh, to Mari is the best female character in Naruto, and even she gets kind of thrown by the wayside. Sorry, repeat that. Tomorrow. Oh, tomorrow is. Yeah. Yeah. But she gets thrown by the wayside. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so the problem with Naruto, and I'm only gonna briefly touch on this because you are giving me grace to not go into the baruto realm. Um, if you are a woman or a girl in Naruto, you more often than not go paired up, unless you're 1010, and you're just kind of doing your own thing, which is why I call her out. Every other woman became a mother. And now, or fat, or fat. And now, if you, if you're a mother, you're stay at home mom, like Sakura is a stay at home. She could have led the hospital side of it, and she still is like a healer and whatnot. That's like again, just

14:39minor things, I think. It's just that that frustrated me even, even more greatly. Like, all right, well, now your role is to be mother. And that is, yes. That is the only thing you can ever do in your life, the end. It's if Naruto didn't exist, it would actually be more interesting in baruto with what happens with the women, because you don't have the full story of the characters. Like, there is a moment in baruto where Sakura does something, and it's this, like, oh, shit, my mom can be a badass moment. Like, that's cool. In isolation, before you realize, you know, before you remember that they've ruined an entire, well, I mean, it's not much to ruin with Sakura, but you get the idea. Of course, Sakura. I mean, Kagya, I know she's so, there's a female delivery. Oh, don't do not even start with that is I losing. That is one of the biggest losing holes you can go down is bring up the ending of Naruto. What do you know? Oh, you want to jump into that? We can just do that next then. Do you want to talk? Do we do

15:42do we do endings or do we talk villains? Because I feel like that's, I want to talk endings only because I feel like that is the biggest controversy with Naruto. And it's legitimately the one thing I will say I can seed with regards to Black Clover is Black Clover is not over. So they could royally shit the bet who knows. That's going to be the hard part to discuss with Black Clover because to your point, I don't remember where I fell off on the anime and picked up the manga for a bit because you and I like will get into the animation because that was part of our discussion there prior to recording. But the Naruto ending, I described it to you before we started as does it feel like a fever dream? Like when you just go back and try and remember all the pieces like yeah, I think this is just a fever dream versus a good ending and I'm hoping Black

16:43Clover doesn't fall into the same pit. Yeah, it's weird because like it's it's a lot of episodes between where the show should have ended and where it actually ends because it should have ended at the pain arc because that is a it's a great arc. It's a great bow on a lot of the stories. Great villain. Pain is a fantastic villain in my opinion. Yo, I mean, I'm not going to disagree there. The, you know, the one thing you can say with regards to Black Clover, one, it has not ended so you can't, I guess the few things, one, it has an end as we can't technically say, you know, what's going to be better worse. You could say if we're just talking about the anime that even though I really like where the anime ends off, it ends off at a a good story arc. It's right before like the speed kingdom stuff is going to happen, which is supposed to be some of the best stuff. So I mean season two is going to start off with a bang that

17:44sounds like it's a incomplete ending. It's kind of like how hunter-hunter just kind of ends, but there's more that you need to be done, but like this is where it ended. I wouldn't necessarily be sad. You know, it's like no game no life. It's like the, you know, there's this fear of not even getting the rest of the story. And I would argue that a middling to even not so great definitive ending is better than no ending. Okay, so you would prefer, say we go back in time and you don't know about season two of Black Clover or maybe it gets canceled along the way, you would still prefer the Black Clover ending over having the finality of Naruto is what you're saying. No, I'm saying the opposite. This is a point I'm succeeding to Naruto where even though the ending is not good, it's not so bad where it ruins the whole story. Okay, do we, oh this is interesting

18:53because we just finished up my hero and that discussion. Do we like my hero's ending or this ending? I'm curious where... For Naruto, you mean? Yeah, I'm trying to like start... By hero. It's not good. It's genuinely not a good ending and the only reason I'm succeeding on this point is that at least there's an ending. That's the point in favor it gets is at least there is an ending, but the ending is bad. And most of people's complaints about Naruto, I have a lot of other complaints as we will get into, but a lot of people's complaints focus on the ending and how it's out of nowhere they they handicap one of their best characters in Madera to just bring out a surprise villain just because and then it goes to the whole reincarnation stuff with the sage of the six paths and it gets real... Aliens.

19:54It is. That's just how I just that's all I imagine is the meme. So I think it's a bad ending. I'll also see that I'd rather a bad ending than no ending. But this is a point. I think you're right. I think you're right. I want to see things wrapped up and ended and maybe that's why even though Naruto again just to dabble a little there is kind of fun to see what the kids would look like. I think people it's kind of like when a Pokemon evolves you're like, oh what is it going to look like when it evolves? There's kind of there's a fun element to it and then you're done and you don't care. I didn't need the the story to continue on word because... Yeah, like a movie like an epilogue movie that's fun. Yeah, it's just kind of something for the fans, but I didn't need it to continue on. Without giving away the ending, Leech does something similar with the manga where the artist showed some after. It's a story epilogue. Yeah,

20:57epilogue is fun. I mean, the other my hero epilogue is fine. When you try to make the epilogue into an entire story, that's where we get into Inuyasha and Boruto Territory. Oh, he didn't hit that Inuyasha. The reference hurts me a little bit. So I'm going to take now, I think we should, I want to talk a point that is in my favor because we just discussed one that's in the Naruto favor. I want to talk about who's the better Sasuke and spoilers. It's not fucking Sasuke. So here's the thing. I called it the best Sasuke just because Sasuke is such a iconic emo boy that defined the big three side character, the individual versus somebody who's, you know, all for friendship and stuff. Do we think this goes back to Vegeta? Is Vegeta the original Sasuke? Just so I like figure out who is the OG. Is it Sasuke or is it? Who is the

22:02trope progenitor? Yeah. That is an interesting question because this is the this is the Lancer. This is this in and of itself is not a new new idea, right? Like the Lancer character is been around forever. Right? Lancer being the the the the five man band. It's the you know, the hero, the Lancer, the big guy, the smart guy, and the heart are the five, I believe. So this is like a storytelling concept that's been it's been around forever. The first big name, like anime one, Vegeta might be it, especially that particular kind of Lancer because a lot of the heroes being Goku clones, right? Right. You know, it makes sense that then they're all like all the lance, do they have to be kind of Vegeta clones? Okay. So so maybe I should have called it the best

23:07Lancer versus the best Sasuke, but yes, to your point, Sasuke was who you would slot into being Yes, the Lancer, but to your point, I agree he's not the best even in Naruto terms. He's not the best, but I want to talk about the Sasuke in quotes of the Black Clover world. Yes, you know, you know, it's great. He's fantastic. He is a perfect rival character because well from a attitude and personality perspective, he is very not, you know, he's very opposite to Asta, you know, he's much more preserved. He is more of this kind of pseudo, I don't want to say privilege, but obviously because they're both orphans, but for me, he's like a naturally gifted, naturally talented individual who actually likes Asta, which I think is like the big difference between Yes, and that's mean something. He takes us to Circe from day one, whereas Sasuke and Naruto

24:14are both rivals and don't get along and Sasuke doesn't respect him basically until the end, in my opinion. Oh, pretty much. And I also like how you know is given the Sasuke moment to to be the villain and he just like similar to Bakugo doesn't take it, right? He he's like like an L-free incarnation and he's able to overcome that and be a good guy. So you know, in Naruto, there are better Lanser options. Even Sai, Sai would have to put like the list like Sai is like bottom of my list. I still think he's more of more valuable or would be if they gave him the time. I don't think he got the time, but like having someone who is this like emotionless, you know, because he fits that sense similar role of Sasuke and then that's part of what the story trick with him was is to make you think he's also going to become a villain like Sasuke,

25:15which is clever to do that. He could have been if they gave him more time, I think he would have been more interesting when he's like the rock bottom of it for that because even Naji, Gara and Rockley, all three of those are much better Lanser characters because even though Rockley is more like Naruto personality wise, he is still because there's other things to it, right? There's there's other things that make him kind of of this opposite where he can't use Nijutsu, he doesn't have any any natural gifts because no matter how much Naruto likes to pretend that Nara who doesn't have any natural gifts, I mean, Homestice has like a nuclear weapon inside his body. Like he's pretty fucking strong at baseline. Yeah, he has essentially unlimited chakra. If I had to like pin it down, it is what always cracks me up as people say, oh, how is he able to do this? And I'm just sitting there in my rewatch going nine days, nine, nine, he has unle, he can tap into

26:19unlimited chakra whenever he needs it. Whereas you're right, I think I struggled because of Rockley's personality, but I like him as a Lanser because he too, you could have had him go down a darker path, you could have had him make different choices and he always sticks to the to the true path and that makes him so much more appealing. I agree, I think Si did not get his due, especially I loved size powers. I thought they were so unique to the series and so fascinating, but they kind of just show him in the early stages of Shippuden and then kind of just set him aside for other stories. Nenji and Gara, here's my struggle. They do go down the same path as Sasuke. They are like especially Gara, Gara is just a straight up psychopath to start. Oh, sure. They both flip in the end, thanks to the power of friendship through Naruto and they are better versions in that case,

27:20then Sasuke because Naruto is constantly trying to flip Sasuke on the right path and he is just like a bad penny keeps flipping the wrong way. And so they sort of fit, but of the list you gave me, I think Si and Rockley are my favorite on those ones. Oh yeah. And also to be clear, I'm not saying that any of these are particularly, I'm not saying that they're necessarily great. I just think that they're better than Sasuke because Sasuke is just he is the worst thing about the entire series. I would argue worse than the ending. That's right. Yes, yeah, straight up Sasuke is. Let's go for it. Just rant. Just what is it about Sasuke that you despise? He annoys me, but it seems like you despise this man. So Sasuke does not belong in the series straight up at all. Was not intended to be in the series at all. He is there because Kishi. Yeah. Rewind. He wasn't intended. Oh, you didn't know this. No, please, please, please, stay out. I don't think this is common knowledge. Yeah. So Kishi

28:25Moto's editor saw the like initial like draft basically for Naruto and was like, yeah, no, you need to add a rival character because you don't have one and we need that. Sasuke was not. Yep. Wasakura supposed to be do you think originally Naruto's love interest slight spoilers for people. I mean, it's been out for a while. We clearly are talking spoilers, but like wasakura initially supposed to be the love? I don't know. I don't know that level of detail to be honest. Okay. And obviously the show and story changed around the fact that Sasuke said that he becomes an integral part of the story, which is the problem. So you had a story that I we don't know what it was. I'm hoping it would be a solid story. And then you shoehorn in this really shitty character and then just that's why he's such a stain on the fucking story because he wasn't supposed to be there and he just keeps fucking coming back and you can even see it in the fact that like, you know,

29:29I would almost argue half of him leaving was because he wasn't supposed to be there and let's them do a lot of the other story points that were supposed to happen. Right. And then he's kind of off doing his own thing and just keeps kind of weaving into the story. But he's just, he's an unlikable character. His motivations are all over the place. They flip on a fucking dime constantly. Like he's a good guy and then suddenly just a bad guy because his brother shows back up and that's actually now the most important thing. But then he joins someone else who's also just as much of a monster and then he turns on him but then gets swayed back by, by Toby. I'm not going to say his other name, but Toby because he's different than to be Marta and then he goes and fights at a touch. He turns out a touch. He was right the whole time and it's just back and forth with him the entire fucking series. And then even at the end when he's like, I'm going to be the shadow Hokage.

30:33It's like get fucking over yourself. Yeah. Do you know who's a better character though? Attachi. I do love. Attachi. You don't need, you don't need Sasuke to have a touch. That's, that's the thing. Are you sure? Like you'd have to make it like Naruto's brother than if you, no, you don't think the brother thing. You can do the entire, you can do the entire Uchiha genocide story point and not have Sasuke in it at all. I need to think on that. Sasuke becomes a grounding point for it. But you could do the whole, you have Kakashi with because the whole thing with that too is you, the whole other connection is Kakashi with the Sharingon and Obito. You don't need Sasuke at all. Not at any single point, you need even when they do the reincarnation thing at the end, they have to make up another person to like be the other like they make up like a fake successor person. As such, like you,

31:38you don't need him at all. And everything he does is terrible. What about Ochoimaru and like his drive? Because he is going after Sasuke in the beginning. Would you just have him go after instead the Ninetales to be a future vessel? You could have him go after almost any other character. Rockley! Honestly, you possibly probably could. Okay, okay. I think this is a great rant and it has brought me a lot of joy. I do, I do concede with you because the first thing when I was watching Black Clover for the first time was, oh, this is just a better Sasuke. This is so much better. Like, yeah, he's got black hair. Yeah, he can kind of be a little, little emo, but in a healthy dose, like in a, in a reflective way. You know, is the better, is the better Sasuke. He's just such a joy to be around. He's very cheerful and kind and I shouldn't say cheerful.

32:38He's very kind and he's truly Cisasta as both a rival and a brother. And that makes a world of difference. And he was also probably intended to be there the entire time. That's a still that was mind blowing. I didn't know that at all. I mean, I mean, if you think about the early part of the story, it makes sense, right? Because when we start the story, Naruto is this like weirdo outcast, right? And everyone loves Sasuke, right? He's like the golden child, the the great successor, whatever. And he starts talking about like, I'm an Avenger. And like, you're like, okay, get over yourself. Like, what is this? Because you're like, he's the popular kid. Why is he like this? And it's because like, I genuinely feel that the whole story beat with him being like an orphan was secondary, right? It was like the the Uchiha mask is probably already always planned without Sasuke. But Sasuke needs to be the Lancer to Naruto. So he has to be

33:43popular. But it makes no sense that the orphan child of the genocided clan, who was genocided because they were going to revolt against the village and was historically also like the bad guys forever to the point where one of the Hokage's is literally racist against the entire clan of people. Why is he the popular kid? It makes no sense. It's because he didn't think about it because he wasn't supposed to be there. Oh my gosh, I am now in a deep rabbit hole. I pulled up Uttachi's or Uttachi's Wikipedia page and shirt up. It's like here was his early concept. Here was who he was supposed to be originally. It's like, oh, he was always intent. To your point, he was always intended to be there. He was going to be a leader of the special assassination and tactics squad similar to Donzo, I guess. So he had a different probably motivation or a different story. But oh boy. Yeah, oh yeah, that's so let's move on. Yes, please.

34:50For our poor listeners, I want to talk animation because this is going to be our biggest contention, I think, because the Naruto animation is highly, highly loved upon, especially later on. The waterfall fight, the, or is it called Valley of the Gods of Valley of Gods fight? You have the pain arc, just stunning fighting animation that is reference time and time again. What is your argument for Black Clover? It has just as many excellent fight scenes that happen earlier and more often. I think Naruto still takes the cake with this. Have you seen the Veto fight? Have you seen the block Asta fight? Have you seen the entirety of the Elf Revolution arc? But like, have you seen the Battle of the Captains? Have you seen the Dante fight and then the

35:54next part of the Dante fight? I'm just saying that taken to account too that Naruto is older and was still putting out like Banger after Banger fight. And, actually, when is the first, I want to look this up. What do you, Claire? What do you, what do you say is the first like genuine like animation Naruto Banger fight? What's the, what's the first one that you think? Because I want to see whether the bridge. I actually think the bridge, the very first. What's Abaza with Abaza? With Abaza. Whoa, wait, let me make sure I'm getting the right. Yes, with Abaza and Haku. That I think was I rewatched some of that. I don't know how well that animation hell holds up. Really? It's fine, but I'm not like, whoa, what did I just see? It's like, it's fun. Then my next one would be the cool, oh, to be clear, by the way, it's a cool fight with

36:59cool powers and the choreography is cool. But like the animation is like, yeah, it's like, especially because the Ninetails, like that's the first like instance you see the Haku are coming out and stuff. It looks cool, but it's not like mind blowing animation even by that time period. You didn't buy that. Okay, by that time. That's what I was going to ask. So I mean, I would agree that the valley of the end. Valley of the end, thank you. Thank you. I have to double check exactly when that happens. Give me one second. You can fill some dead space if you are. Okay. Real quick while we're filling in dead space and other thing, the music, the OPA EADs, Black Clover as one of my favorite OPA EADs of all time. So that's going to be a really hard fight for me to fight on because Naruto has the best soundtrack, the Shippuden soundtrack, the original Banger after Banger, just so fucking good. The actual original soundtrack, the OPs and EADs can be a

38:00little grading and there are so many of them, so many of them. So like, yeah, no, the Black Clover OPs are on a whole other level. Black Rover is so good. That's that's the one. I still listen to that to this day. It's part of my workout like playlist or a running playlist. It's just so there's no like there's no notes, no notes. I'm trying to figure out like what? Yeah, you keep so hard. There's two, there's too many episodes to like sift through to even find like the one when he before, even before this when they fight it like a water tower with that episode. That's like episode 107. I need to find the notes on this. This is this is something that I have to I have to let go and say that Naruto lost at. What is it we found out that there were more filler episodes than the entire of Black Clover? Yes. It's Naruto. Just and it's not just Naruto. One piece did some of this. I would

39:04say it's the least agree just of the big three that did fillers bleach another one that did a ton of fillers. It just for the time period you just did filler episodes to fill in the gaps. That's why filler episodes. Just stop. Just just do what you're doing now and you're like, all right, we're going to take a break. We're going to wait for the manga to catch up. We're going to just take it easy. No, Naruto has some of and it's some of the worst filler that I've ever. I also have some bad news for you. So I'm going to give you oh, how long let me see if I can find the I'm going to be in pain aren't I? Maybe, maybe you can complain about the fillers please. Okay, I'm going to continue to complain about the fillers for Naruto. It is just just use your talents doing something else. Just take a break. Give the animators time to continue to make beautiful animations. What I'll complain about for Black Clover is sometimes it can be a little bit plot point wise by the numbers shown in like it truly does feel like

40:07I want to hit all the shown in beats. I want to do all of the like boob humor. Well, they do less boob humor than Naruto does do more boob humor, which is sexy no juice do come on. So annoying and they talk about how ladies to goddess like a big chest it like that's that's the first aspect that Naruto focuses on. I mean, it's pretty easy. It's a hard to miss to be fair. Hard to miss. Yeah, I guess I guess it's true. All right, so I have the big three one piece Naruto bleach as well as Black Clover and I've pulled up the percentage of episodes that are filler episodes pacing is a separate problem. I I think Black Clover is better paced than Naruto. I think especially towards ship we're at the end with the war arc the pacing is dreadful. Yeah, but those are not technically not filler. I was about ready to argue because the beginning of Naruto is a little bit better paced than I think Black Clover. I think Black Clover takes a little bit to get started to get to our midnight sun. Yes, that's where it really takes off. Yeah, once midnight sun

41:12gets introduced, I would agree. Black Clover takes over. Naruto had a good thing going and struggle bust at the end. All right, so I want you to rank them for me. What do you think has of the four? Which one has the most filler by percentage? So Naruto bleach or one piece and Black Clover and Black Clover. Oh, that's right. Black Clover has very little. Okay, I think so what's the most? Naruto. Okay, what's second? Bleach. Third. One piece. Fourth. Black Clover. Congratulations, you got zero out of four. Is bleach is bleach so the most bleach has 45% of bleach is and I guess to be fair, this does not account 4,000 year blood war, which may may once it's all said and done drop it below Naruto, but currently with if you're just talking bleach, 166 episodes, 366, 25% oh no.

42:14Then you have Naruto at 41 to 42% because across a combined 720 episodes between Shippuden and Original, there are roughly 300 filler episodes, which is again, more than the number of episodes of Black Clover, which is psychotic. But does Black Clover have more than one piece then? Of course, it does. One piece is the best show on planet earth. Black Clover has has depending on how you count it anywhere from 10 to 13%, 18 to 22 filler episodes out of 170. One piece technically only has 8 to 10% filler episodes. But it has so many episodes like so much packed in, so that's what lowers the percentage. It's also the pacing. It is also a pacing thing. So but yes, speaking about pacing, I think that Naruto's pacing is not great. Black Clover's I would agree that the very early part is not good with regards to pacing, but picks up and is consistent from there where Naruto,

43:18while the very beginning is well paced, every single step along the way gets worse and worse and worse. And then we hit the war arc at the end and holy shit, like what are we doing here? Yeah, I hate to say it, but especially I noticed it when you first hit a good chunk of Naruto filler, I feel like that tripped him up. Like that's where you start to kind of feel this almost like juttering to the- There are like 100 straight episodes of filler at the end of Original Naruto, which I guess you could reasonably skip, but if we're going to talk about the entire body of work, it drags down. It just does. I mean, look, the Naruto animation is certainly iconic. I think what it has over Black Clover, I think that there is more, there is a lot more well animated fight scenes, and I think people get kind of forget about it because it's not as iconic. I think we

44:23can talk about the powers next and how the power systems work because there is an interesting point of discussion there between which one we think is better. Okay, I do like the power system in Naruto. I think that there's a lot of detail that goes into it. Even in the healing arts, it's not just I hate to use her as an example because I do love or he may- I'm not just reversing time. Like, I actually have to think about the chakra channels and how I'm using those and with like Rock Lee's healing. That's obviously where I'm at with the current rewatch that I'm doing of the series. I think that there's just a lot of details that go into every piece of it that helps explain why Naruto can do what he does. Why Sasuke can do what he was. There's like familial pieces thrown in there and a lot of Japanese lore which I really dig into and love. I

45:24I think the only thing that Naruto really falls flat for me on is the summons. I think that's lazy. I think that's just Pokemon. To watch a giant frog and a giant snake and a giant slug fight was cripplingly painful. I want to watch something more creative than that. I like the idea of the summons. I think they just weren't creative with what they did with them. But the idea of having summons is cool. I think the thing with the difference between Naruto and Black Clover is a complexity, I think, is really what it comes down to. The Black Clover power system is magic. Everyone has their own individualized magic power. It's very much like fairy tale in that way where the fire mage is the fire mage, the water mage is the water mage. They all get slight variations on that if they're from the same family. But they're all in their own little box.

46:25It's just you have magic. It's very simple. The plus side of it being simple is that it's a lot harder to run into issues. A simple power system allows you to just do very, it's like rock paper scissors type of battles. It doesn't get too lost in the weeds. That's the problem you can get a lot of time to Naruto. The power system and the things that they do are very interesting. They're very cool. It's cool that it's not something that you can learn and train. All that is interesting where it gets wacky is when you're starting to look at things like the, what do they call it? When they get towards the power scaling of it where it just gets like to kaiju fights and just gets kind of wacky in that way. I would agree. There's definitely a Naruto power scaling issue. Again,

47:26my gold standard of that is Sakura. Finally gets to be powerful. Just kidding. Remember, she's got a Vijaja. We can't let her be too powerful. The men need to come in and be powerful. Even though she's got the highest chakra use and can now super duper punch along with super duper healing, you just got to set her aside because power scaling. Well, even beyond the power scaling, when they start getting into the idea of the different chakra elements, fire, lightning, wind, and the discount hunter hunter, nenn test that they do, that stuff ends up not really mattering. That's true. How did he think about the car clenpers? Yeah. That's true. When they get into even weirder and wackier powers where all of this stuff stops mattering so much. Because the idea of Jutsu is cool. These secret crafts, the Shadow Clone Jutsu is one of the

48:35coolest things from Naruto. Full stop. It is. How he uses it and fights is very creative. It's very interesting. But then you start getting into like sharingons, the size of a how, not sharingons, oh my god, the russingons, like the size of a house. One of my biggest gripes between Black Clover and Naruto is for Naruto. There's no reason for them to be ninjas. Full stop. At all, zero reason. You change their name to wizards or some made up word and nothing about the story changes. At all. If you try to convince me that you're going to see a ninja in a green leotard or a bright orange jumpsuit or that red chung-asim thing or however you say it, that like Chinese style dress that Sakura is wearing or like the bedroom robe that Sinade wears or whatever

49:36the fuck Jiraya is doing. Like, I mean, even the villains who are like the most secretive of secret bad guys have. Wearing hair like matching out. I'm sorry, I'm just thinking of. Like, come on with like the, like there's no, there's literally no reason to call them ninjas period. And every time they try to like go back to the ninja stuff, they do it a little bit, but every time they go back to it, it reminds you how stupid it is that they made the ninjas in the first place because it doesn't make sense. Oh, and see, I could say the same thing about the wizard king, but it doesn't really matter. You change whatever it is and it's fine because it all makes sense. Right, exactly. Which is it's, you can say it's like it's boring, but also at the same time it doesn't break the story. Also, do you think Yami is, is in plat, I shouldn't say implied, it's pretty pretty obvious. He came from Japan, right? That his whole backstory of like

50:39coming in from a fishing boat, talking about katanas and stuff. He came from Japan, you know, like he came from this world. It's like how there's Japan. You don't think it looks kind of like isa guy. He didn't have an isa guy moment. Okay, that's what I wanted to. I think this is more like how in dungeon meshi or in attack on Titan, there's like a Japan esque nation that exists. I think that's more what it is. Okay, I don't think he's just like a Japanese guy. It would be funny if it is. I had to ask because when I got to that backstory, may have giggled a little bit because I complete. I remembered his teenage years. I did not remember how he got here. Yeah, no, no, he definitely gives him all the fishing boat, but that's slightly different. I mean, Austin's power is kind of boring. It's cool in the very beginning, like anti magic in the very way you first find out when his power is. It's cool, but then when you realize it doesn't amount to much and they just turn it into like sword slashes and flight and all

51:46these other things. It's like it being anti magic in and of itself is no different than it just being strong magic. Yeah, I struggle because I to your point, I love it and I hate it. I love that it's anti magic. I love that it undoes and kind of eats up magic, but really we should just call it what it is, which I'm struggling to figure out where our audience is with this show, but I would just I see no difference. I'd call it devil magic. That's what I'd call it. I would just simply call it. Hey, you've got devil magic, which should be, it can still be unique and shocking and stuff, but that's truly what it is. Yes. I see no difference between Austin's power and Yami's dark magic. Like effectively, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yep. I think that is an excellent point, especially when he brings up like in my country, it's key. It's like, okay. And now I'm asked is learning key and everything like that. I kind of wish Austin had become the and he is, but isn't I had wished he'd

52:52become more of the rock Lee of his universe where he doesn't have a book, but he still wants to become the wizard. Yeah. I do. I do. It was why I like it in the beginning when it's truly anti magic and then it becomes like, all right, who is physically stronger and Austin just wins, because he's that's what he's had to do. I do also like that Austin's not the physically strongest character in the story. It's actually Yami. I think Yami physically stronger than him, which is also cool that Yami is like both magically and physically powerful, which might be a good time to talk about side characters. I think so, because I know that we're getting a bit off that we are getting in the weeds with some of this. Yeah, we can end on the main characters. I think that's a good ending shot. Okay. So we'll do side characters. Yami versus Kakashi is tough. They're both so different. And so good in their own right. Like they they both have unique vectors. I like Kakashi is a little better. However, it's a rinser and

53:55Pete of Naruto. Are you are you a little boy orphan with daddy issues? Now we're told. Yeah. I mean, and like his whole thing, while his whole backstory with Oito is also interesting. I don't give that. That is so good. Yami, I think Kakashi is funnier than Yami. Yami's jokes about him being like in the bathroom all the time. It's like, Yami's yeah, a little bit more lazy in his like sense of humor. I feel like because it's just like to your point, it's the bathroom jokes. It's so drunk or oh, I don't want to I'm feeling lazy. I don't want to do my job kind of jokes. Where's Kakashi's are a little bit more. It still is 12 year old humor. It's still like butt pokes and things like that and reading poor poor no megas. I think it's funnier with Kakashi because Kakashi comes off as this aloof, very chill guy. And he's respected like very respected. Like, Yami, I feel like even though he's a captain is not respected like really at all,

55:00other than people in the black holes than even then not so much. So like it works better with Kakashi in that way. They're both good characters. Kakashi's probably a little more iconic than Yami is. But who knows maybe we'll get more we'll say. There's really any other side characters that we maybe want to talk about that we haven't. I think instead of just like side characters, what I do want to quickly address that I appreciate about Black Clover, I still think I like that Naruto characters when I like think of side characters. I think there's a more range of personalities and interest. I think the thing that falls flat is what I mentioned. I don't want to talk about parents so orphan orphan orphan. Everyone is orphaned or lost somebody because that's the way to write a tragic backstory versus Black Clover. You have these huge family lines and God, I'm blanking on the family that S. Quire really loves right now in the series.

56:03Is it the poison guy? No, he really likes the fire people. The people like the remains. Yeah, yeah, he really likes their personalities. He really likes how they are as like a family unit. I think it's more cousins than it is like brothers and sisters. I think there's some brothers and sisters. It's both. Yeah, but they're just like so solid, especially because they're really good to contrast against no Ellis family. Family. The soul wants. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. Right, you got water versus fire. Right. So like that's that's been a lot of. That's way more enjoyable. And I think there's more that you can then build into some of those conflicts and resolutions whereas Naruto is like, yep, people are dead. So I have to like resurrect them in order to have conflict. Yeah, I mean, even like Finrull and his family dynamics are interesting. I really like the I like the extended cast in Black Clover a lot. And I think they do similar to what happened in fairy tale where it is

57:08this like it's the family of choice like the misfits, but they also have the other, you know, knights or guilds or whatever that that have similar kind of dynamics. It's a natural way to build an extended cast. Naruto has the team structure, which is supposed to do that. And some of the characters stick out really, you know, a really good standout character like Shikamara was a great standout character. I do like to rock you as well. Yeah, Tamari rock Lee is a great standout character. Gaur is a great standout character, but then you have like 10 10 and you have bring him a girl 10 10 like that. She sucks. Okay, she sucks. She's so good at weapons. That's her thing is I'm being sarcastic everyone. I am. I wish 10 10 had more for all. You could have made her so interesting to be the weapons master and you did nothing with her. They did one thing. They gave her the fan at the end. They did give her the fan. That's it. That's all she got. You know,

58:15is also terrible. God, what is her power even? I know she has one. She's the she can they can swap. She's like does like the body swap thing, the mind control thing. You could have made that so cool. Nope, nope. Instead she runs a flower shop now and is a wife. Because she's a wife to knock off Sasuke, which is so funny to me. Everyone gets a Sasuke. Everyone gets a Sasuke. Keiba is so boring. The guy with the bugs was named. I can't even remember is so boring. There's so many of them are just so so like not much is put into them and there's plenty of black over characters who are also not interesting, but I think it's more a problem. I feel like it's a wash. It's it depends on what you're looking for. I will say the character design in Naruto is way more interesting to me. I will give it to the Zamanaka can draw really, really well. And I think it's an appealing appealing design even to your point though. They should be Shinobi because

59:18they're way too colorful for all of that makes sense. Yeah. And my only other critique of that is all of the women are in heels. Just put them in shoes, man. Just they're they're ninjas. No one cares. Why why you giving them the why you giving all the ladies heels to like run around and no one wants that. How do we feel about the politicians in Naruto? In both of them. Oh my god. Because you have what you have Hokage's and I thought you're talking about like the people who are around like the people who are also fascinating to with with black Clovers. Everyone forgets there's also a king separately from the wizard king that from the country. That's what I thought you were getting more to more add the I'm a the leadership. Sorry. The leadership is. Okay, so I always giggle because I am a fan of the office and I always hear lizard king every time I hear

1:00:18them say wizard king. I am I don't know why Hokage works other than it is not an English reference. And so therefore it just kind of rolls off the tongue easy for me to see I still don't when you get down to the crux of it, I still don't understand a Hokage to a certain extent. Other than they're just the leader of the leaf village. So the manager president. Yeah, I think I think I'd just been like the leader like just calling them the leader. I just um, yeah, I'm the individual characters themselves like I think like Julius the wizard king is such a poor character. He's fantastic. I love that he's a nerd. I love and like I love that he like is fascinating by things and I like his flip on and off like that switch of like when he starts to take a fight seriously but has this. Quay humor in it. It's like a cold humor. I love that in

1:01:21a character. Give me that that's that's delightful. The Hokage um, you know my criticism of the specifically the third Hokage being like. Well this. No, Ruto has the nine tails fox in him. And I know that the fourth Hokage asked me to take care of him. So I'm going to stick this kid on his own. I'm just going to watch him from afar get bullied berated by the village and like just mistreated. And like somehow that's watching over him. What the fuck? What the fuck is wrong with this village? Also then doesn't make sure that Sasuke doesn't become you know like what his family was killed. He's terrible. Also just for Julius the the cover list um, Grimoire is so cool when they reveal it. It's just like the infinite Grimoire is such a cool reveal. That I forgot about that. That was so again if you're talking about the character like himself. I love Julius. He's

1:02:25he's got enough dark and twisty edges to him. I love his magic of all of the magic dark magic kind of boring mere magic whatever even anti magic wind. I don't care. Time magic. You're speaking my language now. This is fascinating magic now like I I think he is such a great character whenever he pops up. I love it. And I love that he's how do I say don't earth in the sense that like he's he's just hanging out with the locals. It's really hard to keep him doing wizard king stuff because he's just fucking around and I love that about him. And then I'm gonna run through. I mean there there is the other the first wizard king whose whole backstory with Leigh is super interesting. It's true. The ones in between we don't really get there's the movie where we see them and you know they're fine. I'm gonna run through the list of every Hokage and how they're terrible. So first we have Hashirama who he does start the leaf village. He's the most interesting in the

1:03:28sense that I feel like his backstory is the most interesting. Yeah but he also sets up the entirety of the failure of you know the Senju versus the Uchias. Then you have Trump Senju. Donald Donald Senju. Toby Rama Trump. I don't know how you want to say it but that's who this guy is. He is just build a wall between the Senju's and the Uchias. He is. And that's how you fix it. That's how you fix problems. Yeah he's the he's the racist one so yeah good on you. We just we went into Harus and Sartobi and how terrible he is. Just a terrible Hokage like just the worst. Minato is as a Hokage is okay until he abandons his child in village and sticks this monster inside his child. That's the same thing. That's the exact same thing. I've just like my kids got this

1:04:29what? Sunate arguably probably the best leader at a welcome. Yeah but we've discussed our problems with her beyond her actual leadership skills. When she's being a leader? Fantastic. When she's being a healer, when she's like defending the village. Great job. Gamalair drunk didn't actually want to be here. Kikashi we don't really see what he does so much so hard to talk about. I was gonna say maybe that makes him fine because to that point when you said that's like oh that's right he did do that for a bit. Technically you know the village gets completely rebuilt under him so he probably did a good job but we don't know we don't really get into that and then Naruto which we see at the end he becomes Hokage. If you get into Boruto there's a lot of arguments that he is a terrible leader in Boruto. I did terrible dad like and like I it's one of the few times where

1:05:30Sasuke is still in Boruto. A terrible dad. He's still better than Naruto somehow and Naruto has two children. Well being being absence probably better than being terrible I guess I don't know that's also very funny. Sasuke is a better dad to Boruto than he is to his own daughter. But he's also a better dad to Boruto than Naruto is to Boruto. That's where it's like that's the joke that's where it washes out. Do we want to talk about who's the better main character Asta or Naruto? Oh fuck. I think that's where we can leave off with. I feel like oh no. It's tough. It's tough because Asta starts out as a carbon copy of Naruto. He's very loud and boisterous. I'm going to be the wizard. He says it's so often similar to Boruto. However I actually think Asta is better and I say this because especially I'm thinking early. Again

1:06:32people have to remember I'm doing my rewatch so it's been a slow go to remember how he is in Shippuden. I think he gets better after the time jump but especially early Naruto is insufferable sometimes because he is dense. He is rude. He is kind of mean and while he has he should have this heart of gold. Those things get in the way where Asta's heart of gold shines through even when he's being dumb or bullheaded. He is always still kind and curious. And that's what's important to me. Asta is like an ox. He is simple. He is strong. He is dependable. He is who he is. That's very much where he is. In the very beginning when everyone's like, oh my god he's screaming and Bap Bap. He is literally a child. Like literally a child.

1:07:32So give it a few episodes because that's really what happens as you wait a few episodes. You're like, oh he's matured a little bit and that is a little more of a normal person. Naruto is just a little shit. And I would say that the story behind him being a little shit makes a ton of sense. When your guardian watches you from afar and you live on your own, like it makes sense. It's one of the few good things that Barato does is when there's like a time like Barato goes back in time and meets Naruto as a kid. Like that whole like, oh this is why he is who he is. It makes a ton of sense. It doesn't mean I need to watch it for 200 episodes, but it makes it's like it is well crafted is what I will say. Is it entertaining? I mean sometimes it is. Sometimes it's it's grating to say the least. I think Naruto is also a better driver of his story than

1:08:36Asa is. Asa is a little more along for the rights. Yes. I agree. Yes. If I had to pick one to hang out with, it would be Asa. No questions asked. He might yell at me that he's the wizard king, but if I said, hey I have an interesting story. He listen. What is coming to mind with Naruto is when they're going to get Lady Sukata to become the Hokage. He freaks out at her and is like, she can't do it. She's the worst. She would never. And it was him judging her. And I get that he's like seeing just that she likes to gamble, she likes to drink, but it's her judging her when he himself has been judged his whole life. And again to your point, he's 14. He has not had a guardian. So this is maybe a defensive mechanism, but it comes off as so annoying that he's not like giving people a minute for just explaining their life story or what not. He's just God, he'd annoy me. And also he'd only take you to a ramen place because that's the only

1:09:41food he knows. And it would be like, can we literally do anything else? Yeah, he's. I think Shippudenaruto is pretty good. I do like more mature Naruto. I think he is better. I think that similar to saying like, like what I said, if you look at Baruto in isolation and you see the women who were moms then do cool things, like, oh, that's a cool moment to give to this character. You made a mom versus the opposite. It's kind of the same thing almost with Naruto and Sasuke's relationship where if you come in to the story and you are just coming into the point where they are enemies, not rivals, enemies and learn they used to be rivals. Like that's a cool dynamic that plays out in Shippudenaruto. But because you've been with them from the start, like, sour is a lot of that. I would say Shippuden through the pain arc is some of the best stuff that you're going to get

1:10:48from Naruto. And some of the better stuff in most shown in it is really well done. Naruto original, I think there's a lot of nostalgia glasses for like tuning exam everyone loves. It's great. It is good. But like, I think the original Naruto, there's a lot of nostalgia glasses for and then people just kind of, either they forget or they just don't include that when they're talking about their love of Naruto, is that stuff after the pain arc. I think you're right. That said, I think actually through you discussing Naruto's growth and change. And even though it might sour a little bit, if you look back on the Naruto stuff, I think you can then show a greater evolution of character that he is the better main character in the end because you get to see all of that. Asta is a good, to your point, good, good boy character. He's a very good boy. And I am

1:11:51hopeful that in, as we progress into season two, that we're going to get some of that evolution of character, I don't think he needs to. It's so hard because he's already starting off as such a good boy. But like, similar to like Boji or... Tandro. He's very similar to Tandro type. Yeah, like similar to Tandro, I just want to see more of that development as we come to the end of his series. And I just want to continue to see him run into conflict and picking the good still, even if he even if he's offered the bad. So even though this became more of a, I think this came more of a retrospective, unpolished series than it did in the trilogy. I think so too. That's my fault. Oh my god. It's okay. No, no, no, we ended up, we ended up agreeing with each other on certain points, which is totally fine. Where do we leave off that with this? I'm not going to say we shouldn't score them like we did for my hero, but I do want to have as part of the

1:12:52debate side of it. Now that we've given each other different sides of each point, even though we're supposed to technically take sides at the end. Let's come to a definitive end where we each say which one, which one is better? I still think Naruto is better. I think that you get more of an evolution, you get an end, you still have really great storytelling points. And I think Black Clover is still can be a little paint by numbers shown in. And that while there are, there are awesome conflicts, especially when you get to the midnight sun and everything, I still think Naruto explored creativity in their ending is what I'll call it. And especially because it's one of the big three, if you were to say I can only watch one, you should watch Naruto. It's, it's iconic, skip the filler. That is going to be my thing is just skip the filler. If you're in a completion, it's like me,

1:13:54I don't even watch the filler. Like just skip over it. I will, I will still end on Black Clover. I think the characters overall are just better characters. It's more interesting as the apparently only feminist on this episode, just the fact that the women are just so much better. Oh, we do in that. We do. Listen, you can side with the showbidest and Picnara Toe if you really want to listeners. But if you want, if you are a true ally like me, then obviously Black Clover is the way to go. I can't see it. I'm just dying on the other side. But I, it's a true point. But the, the, all the characters I think or most of the characters are more fleshed out, better treated. I think the animation is well in the slow parts is not great. It's not great in most shounen because that's just kind of how they save money. I do think the fights are more often, more creative. They have more of a, they come, they come faster. They are,

1:15:03they're more often the animation jumps, like those animation quality jumps do happen on a more consistent basis. The, the opes are spectacular. While the narrative music may be better, the Black Clover music is still good. It's not like it's bad. It's going to, to hinder it. The Black Clover dub is also pretty good, just, just saying it. It's, I mean, for a show in dub, I think it's, I think it's pretty solid. I, I will concede you there. The Naruto dub is, is good for its time. Believe it. Yeah, there's, there's, there's definitely some people with nostalgia glasses on there. I think Shippuden took it to the next level, but the original Naruto, painful moments at times. And I do think that the story beats, while they can be a little paint by numbers, they do explore some more interesting stuff, especially with like the elves and the history of the, the, the kingdom. And it just is a better thought out and plotted story,

1:16:04because I think it was more thought out from, from its onset. And while technically cheating, I do think there's more better things to come. And all of these points I've made are just going to continue to get better as the next season comes out and the story finishes. So if you agree with me, post it in the discord. If you agree with Raggedy, don't. And wow. No, I'm joking. We would love to hear your opinions. Maybe maybe there's a shown in that you pick over these two, but these two are so closely because of the Asta, Naruto, similarities and personalities. This is what we wanted to like touch on and talk about. Yeah. Hashtag, believe all women. Um, and do you want to believe it? All women. Oh, believe it all women. I like it. All right. Well, remember the glorious shown in can be yours for the taking. If you just believe it, oh, women. So set sail and join us for the next episode of shown in showdown.