Relationship Agreements: A Powerful Way to Deepen Love & Lessen Conflict | Krista & Will Van Derveer

0:00So we all want that sense of easy, stable love, but so often, we find ourselves just kind of falling into the same old ruts. We soon we know what our partners thinking, we let small, you know, tension, simmer, and eventually the magic just starts to feel a bit like a chore. My guests today say it doesn't have to be that way. If you're willing to move from what they call an eye operating system to a Wii operating system, Krista and Will Vanderveer join me to talk about the quote, sacred guardrails or agreements that they use to keep their relationship thriving. Will is a psychiatrist and author of the new book Psychedelic Therapy, and Krista is a leadership educator who specializes in how we relate to one another. Together they host the art of Wii podcast. In this conversation, we're exploring how to craft your own sacred relationship agreements that keep bringing you back to love. How to quote, gamble everything for love by servicing. The things you're usually too afraid to say, we talk about a somatic couch tool for

1:02cooling down high conflict moments using simple biology and why abundant repair is one of the secrets to feeling closer after a fight than you did before it even started. It's a bit of a masterclass in how to build a partnership that isn't just a, you know, a private love oasis, but an engine for your greatest work in the world. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Good Life Project is sponsored by Bioptimizers. So most of the nights I try to land a sleep plane, lights lower, phone away, a few pages of a book, and I just want my body to get the memo that were safe to rest, and I kept hearing about how magnesium can help. That is why I'm just super excited to try magnesium breakthrough. A lot of magnesium supplements are used one or two forms. This one actually combines seven different forms of magnesium plus co-factors that help your body absorb and use it. So the invitation here is simple, try it with me for a few weeks, track your sleep, notice

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4:10driven agreements, machine in the context of personal relationships, what's the origin story for this? When I met Will, I was working for a consulting company and we were actually going into organizations. So it's interesting that you bring this up this way because we were bringing these practices about how to relate together in order to really move forward the mission and to succeed into personally and also in what we're up to together. And before I met Will, I was like, wow, I really want to take this into my next partnership because this is incredibly supportive for the success of us individually and also as a company at that point. And so when I met Will and we decided what kind of partnership we wanted, we decided to create agreements based upon both of our backgrounds, what really worked and what really didn't work. And also from some of our mentors that we've learned from and create these specific relationship agreements to help us accomplish what we wanted to accomplish in our partnership at the

5:13time. And we did meet, you know, when I was mid 40s and Will was late 40s. So it was like a second half of our lives partnership where we had already learned a lot about partnerships and what worked and what didn't work. And just for clarity, we're talking about personal partnership, we're not talking about business partnership here. Although it's eventually evolved into that. This is you to me, you're later in life, you've had other relationships. There have been things that have gone well and things that haven't gone well, just like everybody out there. And you come together and you're kind of like, all right, how do we gather up what we've learned and set ourselves up optimally? So like that this thing can really work as good as it can work. Is that kind of like land right? Yeah. And we'll even go to our first, the first conversation we had in our first date. It was very personal to us, our personal relationship we wanted, but we both came to the same table, the same table with the same conversation of we really wanted our next partnership to be of service to the world, not just for our own little private love

6:15oasis. And we knew that if we wanted to have that kind of partnership, that we would have to really create these agreements, these sacred guardrails of how we would accomplish that together rather than just, you know, go day by day and hope that it happens and we'd both come from relationships that, you know, we're challenging, so we wanted something different. Yeah. All right. Will, it's your first date. You sit down with Christa. How does the idea, like, of actually something like this come up on the first date? I mean, most first dates is like, you're dancing around, you're talking about superficial stuff, you're probably having a drink or two just to loosen up and like go over the nerves and the anxiety. This is a big, deep topic to just get surfaced like right out of the gate. Well, I think it says a lot about who Christa is as a human that we didn't spend a lot of time on surfacy topics when we dove right in and we shut down the restaurant. It was a three and a half or four hour conversation and it was just incredibly exciting to meet

7:19another person who had a very similar vision for what relationships could do. And, you know, as Christa mentioned, you know, we both came from different kinds of experiences in the past. I'd been in a 20 year marriage where the agreements that we had were loosely based on our Buddhist practice, which had advantages and it had limitations to it. I'm like, you talk about those maybe in more depth if we get to that. Essentially, the desire that I had of having a bigger expression or a bigger impact on the world, I was not able to realize that in the previous relationship I was in. And I knew that I needed a different set of agreements to be able to accomplish that. So, we've really practiced these agreements now for how many years now, Christa? We'll be married seven years this year and together nine years, but I don't think you

8:24actually had relationship agreements in your last relationship. Is that, are you? I would say we had guidelines based on our Buddhist teacher, which are that, you know, if you're having emotional distress, it's your problem personally and it's not a great idea. It's definitely frowned upon in Buddhism to bring disturbances to your partner. You go back to the cushion. I don't know if that's true, Jonathan and the yogic traditions, but the concept sort of is that at least what I was taught in our Buddhist tradition was you need to have your own back, you need to take that to the cushion, go meditate more. Your disturbance is not your partner's problem and there's significant limitations in that perspective. It's really interesting because you have a lot of times when when stuff goes sideways in a relationship, you know, we go to like what are the teachings that have been handed to us that feel like, you know, what are the guidelines that have come before us

9:25that have already established and we'll just lock on to whatever it is that, you know, that are the ones that we know and we'll ride along with it oftentimes is faith-based, spiritual-based. Sometimes it's just the family culture that is handed down these traditions. And without fail, there's always some stuff which is like, wow, that is really powerful. It makes so much sense at lands really well and there's that stuff that raises your eyebrow a little bit and kind of like, I'm not so sure about that. And then there's the other bucket which is like, are you kidding me? Yeah, right. You know, and I think we all kind of go there, but oftentimes we don't, the question is being raised in our minds, but we don't actually, we don't act on the question, we just act on the road side of it because we're like, well, this is, this is what's been, you know, handed to me, it must work, so let me just follow those rules. Did you have a similar sort of like set of imprints coming into this, Krista? Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, for me it was like, I learned like you're saying from my family about

10:26how to do relationship from our culture, about how to do relationship from the people around me, but after I had lost a partner to a set in death before I met Will and we had a beautiful and also challenging relationship, but after he died, I was, you know, after a year and a half of grieving, I was like, do I even really want a partnership again? And I remember the moment exactly where I was, one of those moments where you can't forget it. And I just stopped and I was like, oh, I want that more than anything, but only if it's going to be extraordinary. And I don't even know what that looks like. I don't know how to get it. I've never seen it, but that's what I'm standing for. And then I proceeded to go through some dating processes with my own self agreements about how I would show for the dating in order to see if they would, if they and I would meet, you know, what I'm this kind of partnership that I was calling in. So I was definitely coming from creating a different thing that I hadn't seen before. Yeah. Do you remember that moment where

11:26sort of, you know, like the switch was like, did something happen? Or was it just you're walking along, you're like, oh, no, I'm just, I just know. Yeah. I was walking my parents' dog. I was sitting for them. And I was on the sidewalk. And I remember exactly I was looking at this park. And it was just like one of those lightning bolts. The nothing happened other than me asking the question of like, do I actually even want this? Do I want partnership? It was so heartbreaking. What I went through with his death. And it was also such a challenge in the very end of his life and also so beautiful. But I was like, wow, this is a lot of work. And I realized that it had to be extraordinary again for me to say yes to this. Yeah. I mean, I would imagine also and tell me this if this is right that when you lose somebody in that way, the pain is so deep and so enduring that for you to say yes to the possibility of that happening again. Like the stars have to align in a completely different level. Does that land? That totally lands because I knew that if I was going to be in partnership again,

12:32it would be risky. I would lose a lot. I would have to love again. I might get heartbroken again. But it without was totally worth it. But it was also easier to be in that conviction because if I didn't get to extraordinary, then I was like, ah, I can live without it. No big deal. I can do this myself if that makes sense. Yeah. So the standard for you is just stunningly high. It's like, I want this to happen. I like, I want this to be yes, but for to be yes, some incredible things need to be in place. Exactly. Yes. Were you coming from a similar place? Well, I had been dreaming and journaling and very carefully detailing the qualities of the partner that I was calling in. And it was interesting because that piece of paper that where I worked that and crossed it out and erased it and rewrote it and designed it was in a workbook that someone had recommended to me that was on my bookshelf. And after Kristen, I'd been together for a few years,

13:36I found that workbook and I opened up to that page and saw that document in there and it was kind of spooky how clearly she met the description that I was writing for a couple of years before I met Christa. So it sounds a little hokey, but I've come to believe that that energetic calling in is real and that that is something that really matters. And when we set really clear intentions, we're sending out a message that that matters. You both come together. You both used a phrase that I think is really interesting and really unusual in what you wanted when you sat down for that first conversation, which is you weren't just looking for something that was going to satisfy you on a personal individual level. You were looking to create a relationship that had a bigger impact that somehow affected people beyond the two of you. That is stunningly unusual. Do

14:36you acknowledge that? Okay. I think we were both a little bit in shock on our first date to becoming with that same conversation. It wasn't like one of us influenced the other into that. We both literally came with that conversation and Will, do you want to share where you got that inspiration from? Well, another close friend of ours in Boulder, Jason Gattis, on his podcast, had the wonderful Rumi translator Andrew Harvey as a guest a few years ago. And Andrew was talking about how deeply the world needs couples who are committed to changing the world. And in his view, at least as expressed on that episode, was like, this is what the world needs now is people who are committed to this and have each other's backs and who are willing to grow and fall down and race ahead and pick themselves up and pick each other up. And so I was on fire with that notion for a few weeks before our date started. And so that was where I got fired up about it.

15:41So it's like you both bring this thing to it because most people start a relationship that like, okay, so maybe they make the list that you just read. I know somebody who had made a list with over 100 things that had to be on the list in the part of that they were looking for. And okay, so maybe that's overkill. But a lot of people do sit down and say like, I need this, I need that, I need this, right? But generally those lists, they're about like what I want for my life about how I want to feel in my relationship, in my world, like it's me, me, me, me, me. And look, there's nothing wrong with that. We all, we have needs and we have desires and we want to get them met, right? On a very personal level. And to go beyond that and say, and like, not bud, but and I also want this union to be an engine for something bigger. It's just so highly unusual. Crystal, like, on your side, like, where did that come from? Well, I can say that we talk about it now. I can say where it came from. But now we talk about

16:44it as moving from the I, I operating system to the Wii OS, the Wii off system. And it's actually really informed our partnership and how we make decisions and a lot of our agreements. But I think that for me, I'm kind of tired. And before I met Will, it was tired of the knowing that there's only a certain amount of impact that I personally as one human being can have in the world. And I, I've always tended to be very relationally oriented, really caring for the Wii of us. And, you know, potentially it comes from maybe something that I was wanting more in my life earlier on is to really be attuned to and tracked. And I wanted to attune to others and track others. And but there's always just kind of a knowing that we can do more than I can, which is our one of our models that we have in our relationship. And it came very clear. It kind of came to a head that first date because I hadn't met another human being, kind of like what you're saying, Jonathan,

17:46who was coming with the same conversation and was a potential partner for me and we're closing the restaurant down. So I think it really even stuck even more in that moment of we can do more than I can. So the materials is, how do you move from there to, okay, so we're getting serious with each other, you know, like we're forming this partnership. We need a set of agreements to guide it. Because again, this is a big wild leap that nobody else takes. There may be implicit agreements, right? Like the things are kind of like, yes, we kind of like agree on this saying, yes, you know, we agree, we've kind of shared this type of value, right? But it's so unusual for somebody to sit down and say, okay, so here's the deal. We need to literally set up like written clearly word by laws for this relationship. Were you both equally excited about this? Was was one person like has it like, I mean, I think here's a deeper question I'm asking.

18:50Especially in the early days of relationship, there's a magic to it, right? There's like this tingling part of the relationship. There's like, oh, this is juicy. This is fun. I don't want to lose this. And I would imagine that there, we've got a lot of people joining us who they're like, if you tell them, okay, so the next step here is to sit down and negotiate these like tightly worded agreements to like, ooh, but doesn't that like kill the magic and everything? It might be counterintuitive to the listener, but it actually has the opposite effect of keeping us very much alive and on our toes with each other. Well, one example is we've out always see each other with fresh eyes every day. And if you take that at a face value, maybe the first impression might be like, oh, that's beautiful and that's sweet. But when you start looking at it day after day over years, how easy it is to slip into

19:53automating your partner, just like you automate the room that you walk into when you come home, you kind of know where the couch is, you know, where the chair is, you know, where you throw your keys every day when you come in. So if anything, I feel like it keeps the juice is really fresh and keeps the passion lit at a high level because there's so much presence that's required to pull it off to live by these agreements every day. So that's that's my thought on it. Chris, do what he did. Yeah, I love your question because some people are like agreements that just sounds like horrible. Like we'll get stuck in some sort of thing that we don't want to be in. And yeah, I agree with Will where it's like for me, it the agreements require me to grow personally. And I'm both of us fortunately, which I think makes this work, is that we're high value, we put a high value on growth. And so like another example is to

20:59assume positive intent. Now this is becoming more popular out in the world that we assume puts intent, but when we're in a rupture or conflict, that's where the real growth becomes comes available is like, oh, I'm not actually assuming positive intent right now and we can remind each other because we already agreed upon it. And the problem with implicit agreements because you brought that up, Jonathan, is that when things get hard and we didn't actually explicitly agree to it, then those things go out the window. You know, when when we're in high conflict, high challenge, like I never agreed to that or we can go there. And for me, these keep me growing because I know that they serve me, they serve Will and they serve the we of us, the you know, the bigger entity that that includes us, but also transcends us. And so for me, it becomes a really fun experience. And it's also not about beating each other up with with the agreements when we fall down. It's about calling each other in and supporting each other and they're living

22:00agreements too. So we can change them whenever they're not actually correct or we have actually misunderstanding about them or they're ready to be involved into something else. So that makes sense to me. What if somebody's listening to this or watching and the thing themselves, okay, cool, cool, cool, like you two are really integral. Good for you. Right. You go grow. You do the personal development thing. You invest in all this stuff. You do the coaching and the therapy. And that's done by the way, like, you know, this has been both of your world and the crystal. You've been coach at the highest level for years and an executive and will even a psychiatrist and like, so like you're both just fiercely growth oriented. But somebody's joining us and they're like, look, when I want from my relationship, I just want to be easy. I want to be stable. I don't need to be constantly evolving and growing and changing. I just want to partner in a relationship that just feels good and peaceful for as much as it can, as often as it can, and as long as it can. But what do you say to that person in the context

23:02of inviting them to still consider getting really detailed about relationship agreements? Well, I think that there are differences in individuals about how much they want to grow or how hard they want to work on themselves in one lifetime. And I'm completely okay with that. I don't have judgment about that. I mean, this goes to kind of the beginning of the journey for me and Christa. And when we work with couples is asking the question, what's the couple up to? Like, what are they here together in this relationship to do together? Maybe it's being comfortable. Maybe it's raising kids. Maybe it's starting a business together. It could be anything. And then the agreements for that particular couple need to support what they're up to together. So it's really about matching up agreements that support the fulfillment that that couple wants to have as opposed to, hey, everybody should be on like the fastest rocket ship of growth

24:06or what there is. And we'll be right back after word from our sponsors. Goodbye project is sponsored by Pure. So after winter stillness, spring kind of makes me want to open windows and clear clutter and just kind of reset the feel of the room. And Pure makes a real difference. Pure is a sleek app control diffuser that pairs with clean, safe fragrances. So you can pick your scent and setting intensity and just schedule it to match your day. Their spring collection is inspired by places like Blooming Gardens and Sunlit terraces. So if you want a small sensory shift that changes the energy at home, try Pure. Open the door to spring with Pure or just click the link in the show notes. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way.

25:08What's in your wallet? Turn supply, see CapitalOne.com slash bank Capital One NA member FDIC. Okay, I have to tell you. I was just looking on eBay where I go for all kinds of things I love and there it was. That hologram trading card. One of the rarest, the last one I needed for my set, shiny like this. Designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. eBay had it and now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you get your windshield wipers? eBay has all the parts that fit my car. No more knowing. Just beautiful. Millions of fines each with a story. eBay. Things people love. It sounds like it's kind of like what comes first then is a conversation that says something like, what is the shared vision for our relationship? What matters to both of us about what we exalt and where we're going? Does that make sense, Christa? Totally. That's actually we talk about that a lot. Is that that is the first conversation? Then I think the next or maybe sub question to that

26:14is who do we need to be or become in order to fulfill that? Then that's how we start to decide what are the relationship agreements? Also, in the question of the purpose of the partnership, it's like why specifically you and me, not just partnership in general, why am I interested in being with you here? It really helps us orient towards what agreements would be supportive. You said something I want to reflect on also, which is this notion of agreements, when everything's going fine, you're just kind of in cruise control with your partner. Maybe the agreements aren't like super, they don't come in on a really regular basis, but it sounds like where these become really important is where there's conflict, where there's challenge, where there's risk of things going off the rails. Is that right? Yes, and I would say one of our agreements, again, some of these are adapted by people that we

27:15admire, like Stan Teckin, in this case, is to have abundant repair when there is misunderstandings or conflict or some sort of rupture. That has been the best agreement for us to stay really connected. Abundant repair isn't just like, okay, we're good. I get what happened for you. This has happened for me. We're good. It's really working something out until I get to, this is my barometer, is that my body wants to be closer to Will's body. Then I know that whatever we encountered is actually making us stronger, more aligned, more in the same page, and that conflict can become a opportunity for deeper connection, rather than there's something wrong for us. And what I know for myself, if I'm not addressing rubs or tensions, conflict with Will, then I start to go back into the IOS, the I operating system, where I'm just thinking about myself,

28:19I'm just thinking about my needs. Forget him, I'm disconnecting from him in some form, but when we really practice our abundant repair, then we're really prioritizing the we of us, the relationship over what I would do on my own, if I didn't stay committed to the connection. So Will, and Chris, the time I'm getting this right, you're the signal for you that you've practiced this repair on a level where it's actually becoming effective, as you want to feel, you're returning to this thing of wanting to actually feel physical closeness to Will again. Will, what's your signal? I can tell when there's even just a little bit of tension left in my body that we're not done with the repair. Gosh, we could talk for a long time about repair, but there's so much to being courageous enough to keep going until you're finished with the repair. I think that's one of the things that I've learned the most in this relationship

29:22with Christa is that what I thought was repair in the past prior to Christa was not a complete repair. Almost, you know, almost ever. It's sort of like, I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings and apology accepted and then move on, but there's no emotional completion to that. It's more of an intellectual exchange transaction. Like, okay, I signed the document and submitted it and now we're good. But the animal body knows when security is reestablished inside of the partnership, you know, through letting go of the tension. And I think Christa described it well of like wanting to move closer to each other physically. It's so interesting to me, also, that you both referenced this somatic signal rather than say cognitively of like, all right, I think we're there. You know, like, I think we've talked about all the things that we need to talk about. I think we've resolved like the major issues. You're both like, no, no,

30:27like that's not like, we don't stop working on this until both of our bodies are telling us like, we're good. Yeah, I mean, for me, if I'm just in the cognitive conversation, then I'm probably missing something because I might be like, okay, I think we're there, like, but how would I really know that we're there? And if I, if I'm not wanting, they feel closer to the whip to will, then like crap, I have to look deeper because there, we have our old strategies of staying safe and like, not getting into conflict with each other. So I tend to mine or tend, I tend to dissociate from the negative impact that I've experienced so that I don't have to actually address it. But I think will like what you're saying is somehow my body has more intelligence around that. So I have to go investigate a little bit deeper. And we do that often. We're like, okay, are we fully repaired? One of us be like, I don't think so. So we have to kind of investigate more. It's not always super clear about what needs to be attended to. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to me also because my my signals tend to be really embodied too.

31:29What, you know, whether it's conflict or excitement, basically everything. My tell is that I feel like even as a creator, as like a maker, as a writer, you know, like when I'm working on something, I'm writing them right. I'm like, oh yeah, it's kind of like it's interesting. It's good. And then I'll write a sentence and I'll shake. And I'll be like, oh hell, like that's if I can do that once more in the next decade, like my life will be good. You know, there's a really physical embodied thing that hits me when I just know something's not just off, but also really haunt, like really connected, really right. But here's my question. So many of us, and I'm going to get back to it because I really want to get into the details of like, how do we actually make these agreements? But I think this is really important because this is how do we know that we're actually sort of like honoring them. We're getting to a place where you're like, we're good with them. I do feel like for so many people, like there's an embodied element to it. Like their body gives them information that says, yeah, like we're there. We're closing in or we're there. Like we're ready to like we can close the books on this. We can move on. We're good. And yet so many of us have been

32:34through so much capital T trauma, little T trauma experiences in our life where we have learned to disconnect from all of our embodied signals, from all the semantic things that actually would want to speak to us and tell us how we feel. How do you deal with that? Like when you're actually when when a lot of the signals that you're looking for would come from your body, but you have and maybe for good reasons compartmentalized, basically decided you're living from the head up and you're not getting them. Well, I'll kick that over to you, I think. Well, I would use myself as an example in what you're talking about. I grew up in a very intellectual way. I came to understand through therapy that I had retreated into my mind as a safe place to be and not feeling the things that were there for me to feel and you know as I was growing up. And you know, not not to scare people away from this process that we're talking about,

33:38but when you if you're like me and you've ignored your body and the signals of your body for a long time, when you start tuning into the body, I think this started happening for me in my early 30s with a meditation teacher who was a very somatic oriented Buddhist meditation teacher. When you start tuning into your body for the first time, it has things to say to you that are not pleasant to hear because it's sort of like you've had a slave locked in the dungeon of your mind for a long time. But I would just encourage people that it's it's very worth it to to do that work because the synchronization between the body and the mind is a beautiful gift that helps you operate your life in a much more efficient less frictiony kind of way to develop that presence is really worthwhile. And I think many people are growing up in situations, you know, like the one I grew up in where and I think, you know, Christus too is just a cultural thing of like we're very

34:43mental in our culture. We don't tend to orient in the way that Christa described just a minute ago of like, okay, my body's feeling something, there must be intelligence there. You know, we tend to write it off or question it or even just disregard it. Chris, did you have a similar sort of journey from the head into the body? Let me think about that. Just kidding. I think I did have that kind of journey. Yeah, it's hate yeah. For those not watching video here, she's just like dude, you're serious. Look, I'm sorry. I mean, Jonathan, I keep attempting to get more and more embodied every single day. So it's, yes, it's definitely, but it's definitely been a journey. And one thing that I want to say here in relationship to our agreements and how we do our partnership in relationship to what you're talking about, small tea trauma, big tea trauma. I mean, Will's really the expert in all of that in his background and his profession. But here, what we really stand for, which I think is different from most couples. First of all, we believe that we

35:46co-create everything together. Our failures, our successes, that we both have a part in whatever our outcomes are. But also that we are standing for the healing of the younger wounded, we call them parts of ourselves. There's different ways to talk about it that that has experienced high levels of either trauma or different things in life that that keep us being in limited perspectives or shrinking down or, you know, not coming to the table that that both of us are responsible for each other's parts and the healing of those parts. Usually, as, and I think Will was talking about this in the very beginning of our conversation, usually the narrative is that's yours to deal with go work on that, whether it's on your cushion or with a therapist and then come back here once you're, you know, got your stuff together and then Will be able to move forward. But here, we're actually really taking co-responsibility for our wounded parts to heal. And that's, I think, one of the powerhouses of our partnership because I can only heal so much of myself, whether it's

36:51with a therapist or something else, but together we can heal so much more and so much more than becomes possible for me individually, but also us as a couple. Yeah, I mean, that lands a lot. Let's actually dive into the mechanics of agreements because, you know, it's one thing to just say, sit down and write down your agreements with, you know, but let's get specific here, right? If we talk about creating a relationship agreement or a list of relationship agreements, let's start with just like one. What is the, what's the structure of a relationship agreement that actually works? Chris, you want to start yourself? We have to both understand what the agreement is. It's not just like, okay, it's like we, if we say color blue, the color blue, we all separately think of a color, particular shade of blue, but we're not actually talking about the shade of blue. We're not actually talking about the same thing. So we have to really understand what it is that we're agreeing to and it has to be applicable in some way. Like we have to know,

37:57okay, this is, this is the moment that we can use that agreement. And there's obviously questions that we could ask to help people be like, where do I even start about what the content is? But for it to be useful, I think those two things have to be in place and will there might be other things that you're thinking of too? I think they have to be mostly equally meaningful to both parties for both people to buy into them enough. So I think there are certain principles that I think work really well, like mutuality, fairness, justice, as a foundation of how two people can feel fulfilled in something that they're working on together if it's a relationship, business partnership, what have you. And I think both people are going to get challenged in different ways at different times by different agreements. So that's, you know, maybe we went a little overboard. We have 24 relationship agreements. But having more than one, I think is useful

38:58for covering some of the landscape of what can go wrong and how you can get into a tough spot together. Yeah. So if I want to make sure I'm getting this right, it sounds like, okay, so one they have to be explicit. Like he can't just bat it around and assume that you both know what you're talking about. Like, and probably good way to do it is literally write it down, or record it all. Yes. Record the audio, whatever it is, but actually like, memorialize it in some way. Mutual. Like you both look at this and you're nodding along and saying, we understand what this is. Our understanding is the same. And we agree to it. And that the language, the language really matters. You know, be specific and not ambiguous. Is there more or did I get it anything off there? Both committed to it. And they can see that they can they can see why it would be supportive to their partnership. Let's talk about some of your agreements and kind of break them down a little bit and see how they fall into this. One of yours from what I understand. And by the way,

40:03everyone's sort of like joining us were we'll share a link to a downloadable PDF where for now what you guys call us, like the 10 top 10 agreements or something like that, where you can learn more and also learn more about. But so one agreement, and tell me if I'm getting this right, is we agree to gamble everything for love. I remember that's such a good way. Okay, walk me through this. Crystal, let's start out. Okay, so I love that you asked this question because when Will and I realized that we are going to pursue a relationship together, we knew that if we didn't gamble everything for love, that we didn't we wouldn't create the kind of partnership we wanted. So this was the very first agreement that we made. And to us, it meant that we were going to put it all in a table. We were going to address the rubs. We were going to bring all of ourselves forward, all the parts of us that

41:03even the ones that we hold back a little bit. We're going to put it on the table to see what kind of partnership is actually here. So it includes taking a lot of risks, a lot of being a lot of vulnerabilities, bringing them with them forward. Will, what else would you add to that? Well, I think it's a really helpful antidote for us personally because we come from, I mean, I come from the south, Christus midwestern, we come from this sort of buttoned up culture where you maybe would suppress or hold back or delete something that you really, really, really want, but you think it might irritate the other person or make them uncomfortable like investing in a coaching program that's really expensive, that's going to take me or Christus to the next level of our career expression, for example, or I really want that new bike or something,

42:03but it's really expensive and like, what's Christus going to think about that or so on? Or like, I really want you to do something differently. Yes, you know, that feels very vulnerable. Like, I really want you to show up for me in a different way or I really was impacted by the thing that you did and here's how he's impacted and can we talk about that? Those kinds of things, which we, I would say we really practice that today and if we're not reviewing our agreements, so we might get a little bit astray, but we come back to them. And we'll be right back after word from our sponsors. Because my project is sponsored by NutriFull, so real change, it really comes from, you know, just one big moment. More often, it comes from the small things that you do consistently, the quiet routines that add up. So when my wife Stephanie hit Menopause, the extra thinning and shedding really got under her skin. She was skeptical, started NutriFull Women's Balance about five years ago or so, and kept going because the change felt steady and real. And over time,

43:07she noticed less shedding, improved hair growth and more visible thickness and that meant we leaf and confidence and just one less thing on her mind. NutriFull is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Let your hair become one less thing taking up space in your head and see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with NutriFull. For a limited time, NutriFull is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit NutriFull.com and enter the promo code Good Life. That's NutriFull.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code Good Life. Good Life project is sponsored by Gab wireless. So our executive producer Lindsey was telling me about juggling weekday routines with her two young kids and she wanted them to play outside and gain independence but still have a reliable way to just check in. So she got her nine-year-old Gab Watch 3E and said it really hit the sweet spot. He can tap to call or send a simple message

44:10and Lindsey can see basic location info without any of the endless apps that still attention. This isn't about control. It's a gentle practical step towards independence. Think of it as slow technology connection at the right pace so kids learn freedom and parents keep peace of mind. Mornings feel as frantic, quick neighborhood trips feel calmer and the everyday logistics that used to just nag at her headspace have eased. So if you want a straight forward tool that keeps kids connected without social media, give Gab a try and see how family life shifts for the better. Visit gab.com slash good life and use the code Good Life for a special offer. That's g-a-b-b dot com slash good life or just click the link in the show notes. Hi this is Stephanie Jonathan's wife. So over the last 10 years I've been dealing with everything from changes in my hair, skin, sleep, and even brain fog related to changing hormones. A lot of my friends have two and it's so hard to get clear answers. That's why alloy health matters. They connect you with a menopause expert doctor who looks at the full picture, creates a personalized

45:13treatment plan, and offers ongoing support with care delivered right to your door. Nearly 95% of women feel better in just two weeks. If something feels off you don't have to navigate it alone. Try alloy health. Go to my alloy m-y-a-l-l-o-y dot com and use the code Good Life today or just click the link in the show notes. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the capital one bank guy is so passionate about banking with capital one. If he were here he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most capital one cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Turn supply. See capital one dot com slash bank capital one n-a member FDIC. So when you say we agree to gamble everything for love, the everything in that sentence sounds like

46:16it's not we're not talking about you know like a monetary value here. Although it may be like in part you know like if you're investing in something together but it's really like everything is it's emotional stakes like if I'm if I'm concerned if I'm feeling really vulnerable if I'm upset you know I'm gonna put that on it. I agree to bring that to the relationship. I agree to not just sit on it but to actually surface it and let's deal with it like I'm going to gamble being uncomfortable, being rejected, being like like being in an argument where I just really don't want to be arguing, being wrong in the name of preserving this love that we have. Does that is that right? You should you should write you should write the next chapter. They should have agreements first because that was amazing. Yes. Being willing to be messy and to show very much like you said Jonathan about being wrong like to to to show a neurotic crazy incorrect

47:22perception. You know Chris I have a story that you're judging the crap out of me right now. That's what I see on your face is that is that true you know and then it's like well yeah it is true or it's not. It's usually not what. Usually not. Usually not what we're thinking about our partners and our faces. There's a whole line of work around that but yeah. So it's really about surfacing assumptions too. And risking being wrong about your assumptions and but also also risking then resolutions like oh wow like Chris I thought like you were totally judging me and I'm feeling a little upset and angry about it and then you're like dude I was literally thinking about what I'm buying like when I go to this like place. Exactly. Usually the case. You know what I'm what I'm what I'm going to do with my friends like down the right. It's those unspoken things right that's so often relationships. It's it's what's not said.

48:24I think that gets us so much more in trouble than what's actually said. Yeah. So true. Absolutely and if we're not saying them we don't understand what our capacity or partnership has. No. We're not actually leaning in to see what's what's available to us in our connection. I think it was Chris who mentioned this earlier but one of your agreements also is we agree to repair ruptures abundantly and stay in conversation. That's fancy language. Was actually yeah well do you want to do I'm sick of that? Well so it's a common phenomenon. I probably almost anyone can relate to is you're in an argument with someone you care about and they raise their hand or say something sharp and walk away and there's no completion of that experience. Maybe they come back in the room 10 minutes later and everyone's acting like nothing happened or that the moment is over it's passed and the person who might be tracking that or feeling

49:24that the moment hasn't passed and there's something left to do might not feel comfortable bringing it up right. So abundant repair is when as we were talking about earlier our litmus test is that our bodies are relaxed and want to be with each other. There's no more sense of concern or edge it takes time sometimes to get to the abundant repair but we do have an efficient strategy that we use. Chris did you want to tell Jonathan about it? I'm thinking about the one where one of us is really upset and the other one points to the couch. Couch time. Yeah so this is this is something that really helps co-regulate each other so that means basically like I'm not going off on my own and leaving the conversation to self-regulate myself until I maybe feel ready for the conversation or maybe I'm not even going to go back into the conversation

50:24but if one of us point to the couch that means that usually there's one of us who's pretty activated and not regulated, not centered we're pretty disrupted and so the dysregulated person will lay on the couch on their back and the less dysregulated person will lay on top of them and we'll just breathe and breathe together until there's some sort of somatic relief in the system and usually you know it happens after 30 seconds or a minute and then we can go back into the content but really staying inside of the conversation is the big point of of this agreement. Okay does that really work because I'm just with that big stream? I think you want really pissed off first and lying down on a couch facing up. Yeah the other one lying down on top of them and the first and on the bottom just being like not even more bothered because it just lie here and they go into my own space and relax but you're saying like this is actually a thing that legitimately works. Legitimately there's a couple things will you probably know the science

51:28better but for me it's like the pressure of will I'm let's say I'm furious and he points the couch and I'm even like heck no I'm not going to the couch but because we have this practice I know that it works and there's a part of me that actually looks like okay fine. When I feel his body on me there's the weight and my body starts to relax when I feel our chests breathing together there's probably something related to mother I'm guessing well you might know but like there's something that actually happens where if I'm willing and just settle down I'm nervous is some will literally calm down and it might again it might take a minute but but it does absolutely at least for us a hundred percent success rate like it's never failed for us. Well I think there are a number of things going on you know there's the hormone oxytocin the social connection hormone that gets activated when an infant and a mother are cuddling and there's breastfeeding going on so on there's I think that when two mammals who are in the same

52:33family are touching each other that's happening there's also interesting electrophysiology happening around heartache variability and the autonomic nervous system and the social engagement system of the parasympathetic part of you know the vagal nerve so there's a lot happening that tips the scale away from you know overdrive of fighter flight system toward more rest and digest and it does seem to be more efficient than talking about things because when you're very activated at least when I'm very activated I often say things that I regret later but it's better for me not to allow my vocal cords to be worked by a younger part of me that's really furious at least in the heat of the moment yeah I mean what's interesting to me here also is that so we started out with this single agreement we we agree to repair ruptures

53:35budgetally and stay in the conversation right okay so you agree to that but then you get to a point where like there's a really major rupture yeah yeah there's there's a big fierce argument and then so you don't just leave it at the agreement you're like okay so for us to honor this agreement we need tools and strategies and maybe tools and strategies that we actually don't have at the time we're making the agreement so then then part of what you're agreeing to here is also saying if we don't have those in order for us to then we need to actually get them we need to we need to create them we need to study them we need to learn them that's part of what we're talking about here it's not just saying we're going to write down this agreement and try try and honor it's like we're going to write down this agreement because it matters to us it lets us uphold the vision of the relationship that we want that let's us create the union and the impact that we want to have you know within the relationship and outside of it and but maybe at the same time we've got some

54:36of the skills needed to actually honor it you know but this matters so much to us that this is going to actually motivate us now to actually go and develop the skills and strategies so that we can honor this because it means a lot to me so it's almost like it tells you um we're to spend your energy and what to invest in also that's so well articulated and when and when we need it and even when we're just trying to stay optimized as a couple but also when we really need it we'll bring in we'll bring in support if we can't do it ourselves which is another way of adding to our toolkit our toolkit yeah so you shared that you have 24 25 agreements between you you have 24 we made a 25th about a year ago but we can't remember what it is so we'll say we we're just going to stick with 24 the 25th agreement is actually to write down the all future agreements so we don't remember um thinking back over nine years together seven years um

55:38in marriage of those agreements um do you have a cent for what the single hardest one has been to consistently honor Chris is naughty what do you got yeah well we'll actually set it before which I was surprised you brought that one but that was great which is which is the the agreement to see each other with fresh rice every day because of how hard it is to realize that every time we go away from each other something's happened to us we have new experiences if we're lucky we have new insights about ourselves where we you know move the needle in our own level of self development and when we come back together we're slightly a different person and when we commit to seeing with each other with fresh eyes every day we're committing to the aliveness and the generativity that actually we embody as human beings and that we're not like like I'm not looking at will I'm like oh here we go again here's Will I already know who he is or you know what he's going to say but it requires that I bring forward something that my brain isn't you know maybe

56:43habitually used to which is seeing Will as evolving developing human being every minute of his life even if he's comfortable and you know not going after the growth mentality of all the time but he is he's a different person so that I think for both of us well is the hardest agreement that we have it it runs counter to what our brain wants to do in terms of conserving energy when we've been around a person for a while we tend to automatically assume the opposite of what Chris was describing you know that okay here's the I know this person there was there was a rabbi I can't remember which rabbi this I'm not Jewish but there was a rabbi who said the worst thing you can say about a person is I know that guy which is a similar message of what we're talking about how do we bring an elevated level of curiosity to every moment with each other and that was

57:43something I learned from Christopher the first time is that curiosity is a discipline and a practice it's not something that just happens spontaneously in my life prior to Chris I thought well that's just something that I either have curiosity about this situation or I don't and it's not my responsibility to stay in touch with curiosity that really lands so powerfully with me you know both of you this notion of especially the longer you are you're in a relationship with somebody the more you've been through the more you've had like versions of the same conversation you just start to assume I know this person I know your towels I know your values I know your beliefs I know everything about you I know what you're thinking right now what you're feeling and how you're going to respond and you just assume like you know the next word out of a person's mouth and it's just so often wrong you know it leads to so much friction so much conflict that doesn't happen totally and

58:45as somebody for both of us I think will and I both value really being seen and really being known we're a partner and and that gets completely missed when we're operating from I already know you and it's also a weird thing to say um but you don't know me in a way it's unsettling you know because it's like if if we're both constantly in a process of growth and change and evolution um on the one hand we want certain things to always be the same because we feel like that's the bedrock of relationship we're concerned that we're constantly growing and changing if the puzzle pieces individually are changing shape over time that you know seven years ten years from now if they still fit the way they did in the beginning um that's not entirely within our control and creates a lot of fear I think to a certain extent we don't want the other person to be different but then when they show up the same way in a way that bugs you you like you you punish them for it

59:49so it's like it told to catch way too we we want them to be different only in the ways that we want them to be different only the way that somehow benefits us in exactly the way we want to write out of it yeah um so somebody who's just kind of joining us and saying this sounds really interesting um I'm open to the idea of relationship agreements where do I start what would you say to my advice would be to start where the two of you assuming you're in a partnership where the two of you tend to have breakdowns and or continued continued loops where you get stuck and can't quite get out of where you're getting stuck and and if you really look to see okay what am I doing in that moment what are you doing in that moment what we want to be doing in that moment then you can start to really look to see okay what might the agreement need to be or what we want it to be in order to make it through those stuck areas that would be one one area I think you could also ask the question in addition to what Chris is said of what is the what are we up to as a couple

1:00:55what are what are we committed to what are we here to do together why are we together and some couples get together every year and ask themselves that question with fresh eyes you know and I think that's a beautiful practice it's interesting that you said some people do it on a regular basis um because I'm also thinking you know the way that you might step into this would be very different if it was a brand new relationship versus heading towards some major commitment versus a long time relationship but maybe going through a major change like kids leaving the house or something like that's like oh wait a minute we've had these like other beings in the home with us for 18 20 years and it's been a blessing and incredible and also chaos and also a buffer now that's not there anymore like who are we what do we stand for like what is our relationship and then what are the agreements that we might sit down and make together to support this and also probably even the question like are we on the same page with the fundamentals about like what

1:01:58this relationship is about um and you know on the one hand it sounds like potentially really hard conversations but at the same time not having them isn't really in service of anything um good but yeah I think that's so well said yeah it's sort of this balance um I really appreciate what you said a few minutes ago Jonathan about how scary it is to imagine that the person coming home from their workday is a different person from the one who left in the morning and how um much fear we have as human beings of change and of of of not knowing what's going on so that I think there's a balance of of feeling that security and having a foundation under our feet but also feeling the challenge slash adventure of accepting that life is full of those changes are always happening to us all the time and developing a way to to meet those challenges

1:03:02as joyfully and um sovereignly if that's an adverb as possible you know yeah there's um there's an energy in me that's always kind of said stasis is death um individually and I would imagine to a certain extent I share that same belief when it comes to the relationships that matter most to me um I don't know whether that's right or wrong I just know for me it's it's something that is something I've always believed and I know I've always felt maybe I'll change maybe that changes for me over time too maybe seasons of my life that changes to a certain extent also um where just stability and comfort becomes actually something that's much important to me like I'll hold the space for that but um yeah it's it is interesting the way that we all dance individually with this notion of you know security wanting the security and the stability um and at the same time wanting everything that growth and evolution and change also gives to us um I don't think there's anyone

1:04:08right answer but it's a question that I constantly ask feels a good place for us to come full circle in our conversations in this container of good life project if I offer up the phrase to live a good life what comes up so crystal ask that of you first for me to live a good life is to really be so deeply in contact with what's moving through me so that I can actually share that with others and support others and sharing with me and I think that for me the good life is really having deep rich connections with the beings with the beings around us it brings me a lot of joy and goodness for me uh I'm living my best life when I'm chasing ambitious goals of having impact in the world while at the same time balancing those activities with deep connection with myself and the people around me um thank you both hey before you lead be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with Dr. Deepika Chopra about toxic positivity and how

1:05:10to be optimistic without tipping into delusion distraction or even harm so be sure to follow good life project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss the next episode this episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me Jonathan Fields editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young Chris Carter crafted our theme music and of course if you haven't already done so please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts if you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring chances are you did because you're still here do me a personal favorite a seven second favorite and share it with just one person if you want to share it with more hey that's awesome but just one person even then invite them to talk with you about what you both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter because that's how we all come live together until next time I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project with no fees or minimums on checking accounts it's no wonder the capital one bank guy is so passionate

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