Rape Culture Has a Group Chat

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1:07Girl. Girl. My computer crashed. I was so not ready for today. Like, okay. It's all everything around me is rebooted right now, so seeing you as a reboot for my soul. Yeah, we both were like, we're running late. Running late. It's so funny you realize you're like one stubbed toe from fully losing your mind. Oh, yeah. For whatever reason, my Spotify was not working this morning. And the way it had me grind screaming throwing up, then I shut, I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I kept trying. I was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Like, it like like, that's how I knew. That's how I knew that I was at the threshold. I was like, I really, this shouldn't be this big of a deal. So I mean, let's get into it. But I think it's very clear the theme of today's episode is that we are all, as Tony Morrison wrote, on the thin side of evil trying not to break through.

2:07And it feels like the environment, the new cycle, let's just say it. Men are pushing us, pushing us against our limit. Well, time's side you chose. I mean, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, a man, and I'm Zach Stafford, also allegedly, a man, and you are allegedly listening to my chat. We were having a conversation in my house the other day around those of us who are men who are maybe aware of the violence that our gendered identity brings into this world. Should have a new gendered name for who we are because we're very different than the types of men we're going to be talking about today because we understand structural violence. We understand how consent should and can and will be working in our future.

3:07And the men that don't just are not men that I see when I look in the mirror. So I feel a divide with those men today. Yeah, I'm glad you bring this up for a couple of reasons. I mean, one, I mean, I think this is why to me, at least personally, the distinction between being queer and being gay is important. Yeah. Because I think queerness is as much a sexual and perhaps gender identity as it is a political identity and it understands that gender and sexuality are politicized and it thinks about intersectionality. But two, it was interesting seeing gay men. I'm glad, you know, men need to be talking about, for example, what happened in Cornell as much as women in films. But it was interesting seeing some gay men begin to talk about it and I'm grateful, you know, as they should online. But some of the gay men I saw talking about, Cornell, for example, were talking about being allies to women dealing with rape and sexual assault. But they were talking about it as if only straight women have to deal with rape, sexual assault, harassment.

4:13And of course, that's just not true. Like any woman, any family, any of us, honestly, like, you know what I mean? And so, I mean, well intended, well intended, I would rather people kind of awkwardly tiptoe and particularly men, I would rather see y'all kind of fumble and learn your way and grow your way into these conversations. However belated your arrival maybe, then not saying anything at all. But yeah, I was like, oh, you know, queer people, I mean, we could have a whole conversation about queer women and collective rape. Yes. Oh my God. Yes. And how rape is a tool of the patriarchy to straighten someone out in all the ways that word operates in our society. So yeah, queer people are definitely part of this conversation today. And all conversations around domestic and sexual assault period. So with that, heads up everyone in trigger warning as we continue this conversation. But we are going to dive into the Cornell rape case. That is all over your feeds, all over the news. We're going to be holding space for the young woman, Jane Doe, as she is listed in the civil lawsuit and talk about her story.

5:14But also the story of the reporters who are breaking news on the ground and holding powerful people to account in a way that is so necessary. So we're going to be talking a lot about that today. And then also trigger warning and I don't mean that. I don't mean that. You need a second trigger warning for the second segment as well. Just a different kind. Listen. Because like listen, y'all ruined a thing that we were having a good time with. The lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts began as an inner community conversation I found. When you text me, I thought, oh my god, I've been waiting for this conversation. Let's talk about it. Let's go there. Let's see key about this thing and about how like stakes may be different in a lesbian bar than maybe the real world in some ways. But what has happened, you called it a hydra and that's a perfect way putting it. And Marcus called it a hydra. Yeah. Marcus is brilliant because it is a hydra because we are now seeing the story become a lot of different things depending on where you stand in the culture. And at the center of it is a joy you all are having around making fun of disabled folks, queer folks, spaces that are supposed to be safe.

6:17And we want to get into that. Like we want to have the key key about the like, oh my goodness, look at our intro community conversations and how complicated and funny they can be. We also want to talk about we all really love an excuse to get real homophobic real anti woman real able bodied. And we don't think there's there's much time for that because the stakes are too high. Also, I just I mean, you know, both of our segments have several things in common, but two things that come to mind are they are both stories that would not have become as big as they did without the internet. Yes. They both hinge on social media and internet conversations, which is interesting. And then perhaps relatedly both stories in different ways, I would say one in a productive illuminating way and another in as you're saying an unproductive perhaps even destructive way. Both stories become avatars, right? So we're like talking about what's going on at Cornell, but anyone with good sense knows that this isn't limited to Cornell. It's not limited to Ivy League schools.

7:18You know, it is this is happening on campuses across the country, right? And so it's like using this to kind of enjoy you know, I see people talk about Brock Turner, for example, in that rape case or Brett Kavanaugh. And then again, like the lesbian bar, yeah, it's become an avatars and people are using it for different purposes, but like kind of using it as like, I don't know, a test case to apply to other things. I don't know. There's a lot going on too much. Not going on. Well, with that, should we check in on each other first before we do all this. Let us just how are you doing my dear? Oh, I have been far better. I have been far, far better. I found out, you know, yesterday, and I just posted about this on my Instagram, but I found out a dear friend of mine passed very quickly. And he had been battling cancer very privately. And I don't want to get to all the details of him specifically beyond that I loved him deeply and folks on Viacek want to honor him. If you did not know this person I'm talking about, he actually helped produce this episode of Viacek.

8:21And he was the one that put that together and he's been such a big supporter of Viacek and always been the person that's called me to say like, you guys should do a live show here. Have you talked to this person? So he's always behind the scenes advocating for the show. So I deeply, deeply love my friend Tino for this. But what I've been really thinking about Said and I know you'll connect to this is he was to me, my strong friend, but no one checked in on no one. And I even found myself not checking in on him as much as I probably should have in retrospect. I did as much as I could when we saw each other travel a lot. Like I always, you know me. I'm always asking, I love to ask a question. But I just, my experience of him in the world was he was such a bright light, but he was that essential strong friend that no one checks in on. And to know that he died so quickly and did not tell people for a variety of reasons, just breaks my heart for all of those in our lives that we know are privately struggling through something great. And because of how they move to the world, because how people maybe see them as refuge and they don't know how to be a refuge for themselves or allow others to be refugees in their life, it just makes me really think a lot about that phrase that is that people love to say, which is checking on no strong friends.

9:27They're going through a lot because it is so real. It is so real. And we need to do a better job of taking care of each other. And that's why I really want to talk about this lesbian bar story. Because for me, the core of that is about how do we take care of each other and what does care look like. But I'm just really, you know, thinking a lot about how I can ask better questions of my friends today. Make sure are you okay? And if they like falter in that answer, like lean in, we're appropriate and really think about the fact is you you have pointed out even today on the show that like we are going through a lot. And we're all not making it out alive. And that is reality. And how do we find love in community and all that. So that's my vibe check in is I'm thinking of my friend Tino. And he had a beautiful life. And we will be celebrating him. But I'm just thinking about many of you who are listening right now that maybe feeling that feeling in your heart that's like, oh my god, I am that strong friend. And one day I'll learn to let someone in. And I'm here to tell you, I'm thinking lately a lot about how like you may not have the time. So we need to rush into taking care of each other a lot better. Yeah, I mean, my condolences.

10:28Yeah, you've spoken about Tino before. I mean, he just seemed like a lovely person. I do think what is tricky is to your point as, you know, again, with the theme that's kind of rushing under the waters of this conversation is, you know, we're all going through it. Well, when you're the strong friend, right, you're already inclined to kind of compartmentalize your interior concerns to focus on other people showing up for other people. Often showing up for people, perhaps is the way you work to heal your own anxieties. Yeah. But setting that aside, if everyone's going through it, if we're living through, as we say, constantly unprecedented times, I think it can be very difficult. And I know I feel this way myself sometimes. So I certainly don't think of myself as the quote unquote strong friend to know when something is bad enough that I do need to ask for help. Everything's bad. If everything's unprecedented. If every day is fresh hell, I think it is, it can be genuinely difficult to go, is this a moment I get on the phone with Zach as opposed to texting him.

11:36Well, Zach is really busy too. I don't, you know, what I mean is that you can, you know, and so I think to your point, maybe we just have to practice. Yes, we have to practice. Yes, practice, you know, just airing on the side of reaching out, you know, I mean, and that's how we learn. I think you're exactly right. And that's where I'm taking my lesson. You know, there's all very fresh, but that's where I'm finding solace today with our community where because all the phone calls I've had with friends of ours, it had been like, I wish he had called. I wish like he's done so much for me, but this could have been my opportunity to do something for him. And, and you know, we can't go back in the past. Time has happened. We're moving forward, but what I can do now in all of you can do now is practice being vulnerable practice, you know, knowing that to your point earlier, you Spotify is not working and you can't listen up first. Maybe that's the moment where you called me and say, girl, how do I should have? I should have given you know somebody over there who could because it was. It's a lot. It's a lot. So yeah, it's kind of like listen, like when you're feeling like no feeling is too small, you know, and listen to this feelings and lean on.

12:38And so practice practice. But say how are you doing over there? I finished my book. So I didn't know if we could talk about that. We could talk about that. It has been I will have to say say Jones not only finished the book, but has done rounds of edits on the book very rapidly while doing the show twice. So we while teaching. I while doing everything. I don't recommend this. I will never do this again. But I was writing new material for the last act of the book. So generating new material. Addressing edits and doing revisions at the same time. And say, I don't will see. I hope you like the people might get to the end of the book and be like, yeah, it looks like it. They will think that they will not think that. I have seen a lot of pieces of this project. And I think it's people should be really excited.

13:40And you should be really proud of the one you do. You know, people are like, how do you feel? At first, I just felt tired. Because it was literally down to the wire on Friday. I booked myself a six p.m. train. I had to go to New York. That's why I didn't know you were going to New York until I saw you posting your famous. You know, the damn nor Easter ended up making it, you know, pointless because my panel at the Brooklyn book festival got canceled and everything like that. But I booked myself a six p.m. train in part to force my I was like, it has to be done. It has to be done. I'm sending this to my editor, come hell or high water. And yeah, so initially I just felt tired. It was like, you know, when someone finishes a marathon and they noticed they're like bleeding everywhere. And just like, you know, their legs start to hurt you know, like all the aches and pains start to get with you. Yeah, yeah, you've, you've gone to like a little war and you're like, oh, wait, my arms broke and I had no idea. It's not like I wrote the last word and then I jumped up for my desk and was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I will say by the time, you know, an hour or so later, I'm on the train and I ordered a glass of Perseco.

14:42It started to, the joy began to flood in. I'm really proud of myself. Yeah. And I'm excited for y'all to read the book. So, you know, still a lot of work to go. That's the thing with publishing a book. You kind of, you, you kind of go through one marathon and then your reward is another, you know, crazy. And then you tore the book and then you deal with critics. So that it's just never, and then it's out in the world and then people start coming up to you and telling you their stories of what you wrote and how it impacted each. Exactly. I mean, you know, you know, you can't tell, you know, you can't tell everything. But what you've done is very hard. Yeah, I can't tell you how good it feels like talking to you right now to not be in the back of my head, like, soon as we're done, I need to get back to writing the book, you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you let go of some of that weight in your head. Yes. Yes. Well, sisters before we jump into the episode because obviously we have a lot to talk about. We of course want to thank all of you who listen to the show. And of course, a special shout out to those of you who are subscribed to our Patreon. If you want to join the group chat, you can find us at patreon.com slash vibe check.

15:46But for now, let's jump in, shall we? Let's do it. Okay, let's talk about Cornell University. For people catching up with this new story because it has been fast moving, here's what you need to know. On October 19th, 2024, a Cornell University student identified as Jane Doe was drugged and gangraped by seven members of the Kai Phi fraternity at her school over the course of seven hours. All of this was detailed in a 101 page long lawsuit. Jane Doe was 20 years old at the time and had been drinking at her sorority house and a bar before she went to the Kai Phi house to visit a friend. Ferturnity members gave her more alcohol, then pressured her to snort a substance they said was ketamine at 142 am. One of the men sent a message to the fraternity snapchat, which had 57 men, 57 men were in the snapchat.

16:53And the message said, quote, free pussy upstairs. No one called the police. They subjected her to more drugs and insulted her until 545 am. Jane Doe reported the rape to campus police several weeks later. Doe's attorney general, Thomas Gaffura, claimed only two of the seven alleged attackers were expelled while other fraternity members received lesser punishments, such as submitting essays, according to CBS news. None of them were arrested. Cornell University countered that claim on Monday saying there was a range of sanctions for the accused students, including suspensions and expulsions. But the university says none of the individuals charge were offered an opportunity to write essays as, and those were choices important, so consequence of their involvement, which is to say they did write essays, but it's like, well, they had to write essays and they were also suspended for a couple of days.

17:53And significantly though, in a September 21st statement, Cornell declined to confirm the individual disciplinary outcomes. So Cornell won't tell us how these students were disciplined, though it's trying to distance itself from the incendiary detail that the seeming most significant punishment that most of these young men received was to write an essay. Most entirely to reporting from student reporters at the Cornell Sun, which named all seven men in an editorial, this horrific case, gained traction over the internet so much so that earlier this week, prosecutors decided to reopen the investigation. The details are overwhelming. There's so much going on that, Zach this morning, I, you know, I started to get emotional and was difficult to even just like focus. I wanted to ask you to start. Did I leave out any details that you feel are important to mention so that the two of us, and of course our listeners are all on the same page for this conversation.

18:55I think you did a really great job of covering, you know, the high level one thing that is coming up in the lawsuit is that this is a civil suit. So because criminal charges were not brought against the seven men, which for folks who don't understand how the US criminal justice system works, she herself cannot bring those charges. The police would have to in the local DA would have to bring the charges she can accuse, but they would have to bring charges. So we don't know what happened there. The DA there saying that the recent news around her being drug unconscious were things he did not know. And that's why he's reopening this. And she through her lawsuit is saying, well, no one ever followed up with me after my first report, which was weeks later, no one ever came and talked to me. And because of this, she has a very wide ranging lawsuit, which even includes the bar where this all began that night where she went. And I believe her sorority as well and her sorority as well, where she is showing that there is a structural problem here that she went to a bar. Her hand was marked as underage, barters and other folks in the Greek life began giving her drinks anyway.

19:55And thus began this journey that led her to a very, very graphic and violent assault that lasted as you pointed out, till 545 morning, which I believe according to her suit, ends with the president of the Ky-fi organization, kind of joining in on what is happening in the gang rape. So, you know, there's clearly something at play here that there's a voice club happening and a voice club is using the hierarchy and the social norms of the fraternity to systematically engage in a gang rape, which, you know, if you look at the data, over 25% of young women on campuses are reporting sexual assaults during their college times, 8% of men. So, to say this is not uncommon is laughable, one in four. So, I would greatly bet a lot of things in my life against the idea that these men may not have done this for the first time because they live in a culture where this type of behavior is really normalized, where they think, oh, a girl, she's really intoxicated, give her more drugs, give her more alcohol. And it's consent and the law is very clear that it's not consent, that is coercion. So, yeah, so you're right, those are the state of affairs.

20:58There's a clear path of her being illegally given substances through her whole night and adults all taking advantage of that situation. And now she's telling her story and her story is heartbreaking, say the least. Yeah, I mean, something else that I want to point out that you kind of helped elucidate the significance of is that when she first reported this, and obviously it gets complicated, this is a legal case, you and I are not lawyers, but it does seem significant. She reported this assault to the campus police, to the Cornell University police and the Cornell University police decided not to press charges. All major universities, I mean, Harvard has its own police. So what's significant is, and I'm not trying to let this DA off the hook, but it raises a new issue that I think a lot of us and certainly parents listening to this podcast, professors, you know, people who have young people in their lives who are students. And so, the thing that I want to point out is that the university police, the campus police are beholden to the university.

22:06What seems like you were saying the systemic issue is that they closed ranks. She went to who she felt were the authorities. But they were the authorities within this academic community and this academic community had a vested interest in protecting its reputation and protecting these rich, fat boys. And so that's really scary. And you and I've talked about shows like Furious and you know, and it films like promising young women and you know, not that I feel that going to the police by any means ensures that assault victims will get anything akin to justice. But it's like, damn, she didn't even stand a chance. If at the end of the day, you know, the head of the Cornell police department kicks the case up to the university president or to the board or whatever and says, what do you want us to do about it? What do you want us to do about it? Yes. So I'm not trying to let the DA off, but him being like, there's so much information I didn't even receive. I kind of wonder if this is why.

23:07Oh, I think that's exactly why they didn't give it to him. And we know this with elite universities. You know, I went to a private university and I had my own incident where in college, I was very active as an activist around sexual violence awareness. And for weeks, my phone kept getting bombarded with messages where people were threatening to sexually assault me. And so it was because I was so visible on campus that I was getting all this hate mail and stuff because it was a Catholic university. So I went to my campus police, which similar in Chicago is its own type of police force within the larger city. They decided to not push it forward. They said, we don't have enough evidence to do anything with this. And you the best we can do for you, Zach, is we'll give you a police officer to walk with you around campus. And again, I'm a young black man in Chicago wanting to be tailed all day by a cop because I'm being harassed and potentially someone wants to assault me as punishment for the work I'm doing on campus. I said, no, thank you. I think that you guys when I left campus for that year and I went to my community and had them help me through this.

24:08So as I was hearing this story, I was like, well, no shit she's having to sue civilly this school and all the Ivy League schools abide by their own rules. And they say it's a way to protect kids from the police and the prison industrial complex, but really these systems are built to protect young boys and ensure that they become the next senator, next doctor. And so they can control the record. So all of this, the fact that they're not even being transparent about how they held these kids accountable. And then it gets these men accountable, right. Is bullshit because if this had happened by a, if a local Cornell police, this would all be public record. We could foyer. We'd have transparency. We'd understand how the system of justice is wrapping its arms around or not around the case. And we could do something about it, but it does require in these incidents for a young woman like Jane Doe too sucivally for anyone to pay attention because they did not give her her access to a route to justice. Period. One that she thought was needed in the situation. I'm glad you drew attention to the slippage in language.

25:10Boys men, young woman, girl, you know, even when we talk about the members of the fraternity, we say, fat boys. Yes, and the concept of, you know, and it has everything to do with this, you know, these types of cases. Well, we don't want to ruin this young man's life. He has such potential, you know, and that's what the film starring Carrie Mulligan that I feel like is about to shoot back to the top of the Apple charts. I'm planning on rewatching it today. I already put it in the vibrics from the talk about I was I've been watching clips. Yeah, so we can talk about it more, right? But this concept of, well, this woman had a promising future as well. Something I want to draw attention to as a man, I'd heard about the case. I will tell you in social media watch, I have started paying more attention to threads. I don't post on there as much. I tend to just like read and repost, but there's a lot of pop culture. There are a lot of black people having fun. I've really enjoyed seeing people talk about TV shows I like like a different world and we'll get there.

26:12But this is where I saw the Cornell case taking off threads is where I learned about this case. And I'm grateful for it because I think even now it's like, you know, the New York Times, the way they covered those university presidents hearings. You know, I mean, this is like you have to scroll down the Guardian. You have to scroll down to get to one story about the Cornell case. We'll see if that changes in the coming days. But what I want to say is like even when I began to know about the case, the outrage and was beginning to collect my thoughts. I didn't know what the text message said. When I saw the language of the text message. And it's like, it's a Snapchat. And you can see how other people are reacting to it. And a picture is a picture of a Snapchat. It's not the screenshot, which is because the person who took the picture didn't want others to know that they took the picture. I see. And you see other guys who clearly had gone up like gotten the message, went upstairs to the room because it was like in an alum room, which fills symbolic.

27:19And I guess verified for themselves that it was happening. Verify for themselves that it was happening and didn't stop it. And so you see two different guys in the Snapchat respond and go, it's not a bit. Yeah. It was interesting seeing like Jens. He's not it's not a bit. It's really happening. It's not the POV, which is porn term, which again, significant. It's not a bit, which is to say it's not just that 57 men were in that Snapchat group and no one called the cops, at least two different. And then I don't know if they were the part of the seven. I get the sense that they weren't, but at least two of them not only ignored it, they went upstairs. They went upstairs, saw this young woman being gang raped over the course of seven hours left the room. And then went back to the Snapchat to report to their friends, seemingly to encourage them to go.

28:23It sent me to a dark place. We talk about like not all men. We talk about men being silent, you know, men being willing to say things like, you know, when I'm a father, if you touch my little girl, I'll kill you know, the hypothetical, the Black Odocio and then not willing to like in the moment confront your own friend. We talk about that, but this is something more sinister. It is and two things I want to say one, what sent me to the moon, what began my kind of take off was that text when you shared it to me, because I didn't understand it, I didn't realize until you pointed it out. And I was like, oh my god, free, like, oh my god. And then as I got into the court case today, I went through the suit, the alleged guys that did this, some of them are saying that they have evidence to prove that it was consensual. And when you read that, you just read between the lines and think, someone has a video, someone took pictures, there's that. And the fact that these young men potentially were so emboldened by what they were doing, they thought they should capture it, especially when you point out this as POV, like, we're going to learn so much more.

29:25And the way in which no one thought this was abnormal should scare everybody. And this weekend, I was able to see the new movie with Robert Pattinson, prime time, which is about Chris Hansen, who was the host of how to catch a predator, a very famous show about catching petophiles in America. And I said to you, I text you afterwards, I was like, isn't it crazy that we used to have a weekly entertainment program on American television, where we showed petophiles being captured. And there were so many petophiles that they kept going for years. And I did some research afterwards and found one clip of a man who gets caught 31 year old man was planning on assaulting a third child girl. And as he's caught and he's being interrogated by the police. And I thought about this rape case with Cornell is these are one to one. He eventually says, my biggest fear with assaulting young women was not that he was assaulting young women and boys was that Chris Hansen one day would have cameras and that Chris Hansen would see him and that he would feel shame that this other man saw him. And I think at the core of all this and why we need to talk to young boys about this behavior and that they potentially have a high chance of doing this. And I think parents need to reckon with that immediately is that the big motivator in these situations isn't am I going to jail.

30:34Is this young girl going to be hurt or is this woman going to be destroyed over what I'm doing to her. They're more concerned about the men around them and if they like them. And that should devastate all of us because that's exactly what's happening in the Trump White House right now. A bunch of guys who are rapists only caring about what each other think and not about what they're doing to us. And I think we have to do something to undo this this trauma and something I've got to ask you fraternities. No one solution can solve rape culture. But should we just get rid of fraternities that make it enough of a difference. I think so. I don't see their purpose. I think unless we I mean is what we said at the beginning. I mean, I think their I actually I think their purpose is to keep a lung. Yes, it's the same reason like why is tailgating so important to like football schools. Is it gives a reason to have a lungs be invested like you know in a regular way and then you get them to donate more. I think the the mayor of Cornell who went to Cornell is asking for all Greek life to be suspended. And I actually am super aligned with that because there's a structural problem here. Again, this is not a one off.

31:39This is an echo that this has been normalized too much and I do think Greek life and we see this. It's a trope throughout films since films began with there's always like a weird situation with a young woman being in two drunk at a bar. And we're so focused on telling women to to watch out for your drinks to walk in pairs to do all these things. Now we know what I was thinking. I was like, oh, this is why Gen Z doesn't drink so much. Exactly. They know what's going to happen next because we know that we live in a culture of rape culture that says when you get raped, that was your fault. You did do enough to protect yourself. So I think fraternities are at the front line of that assault on people at large because what we're seeing even with the case. I think in Wisconsin, young men are also assaulted during hazing cases like the relationship and the power dynamics and fraternities is fucked. And I was never in one and thank God I wasn't, but to your point, if we can't take down the patriarchy, take down fraternities. I'll be happy. It's a start. Yeah. It's a start. Well, I put this on social media, Jane Doe, baby. I hope you bankrupt Cornell University.

32:42I, ooh, strip their copper wiring. Oh, my goodness. There is nowhere to hide. There is nowhere to hide. And I just hope every single, every single administrator, certainly the president who hated Palestinian protesters so much he wants tried to hit some of them with his car. I just from the rooter to the two to root him out, root him out. The rooter. I'm on the rooter to the two, which you know is a pig reference from the front of the big to the back of the big and and universities everywhere. Don't just go, this is just Cornell. I hope that this, this sets off a chain reaction of scrutiny on campuses across the country because this is absolutely not just happening at Cornell University. If you want something to haunt you, 2025 study, 25% of women, 8% of men, sexually assaulted on campus, which means probably like, I don't know if we're going to be frivolous, 25% of boys on campuses are going to be predators.

33:42So we got to do something. This is not an aberration. This is very normal. And it's not okay. All right. Let's leave it there for now. Let's take a quick break. But stay tuned. We'll be right back. Are you the kind of person who can't scroll past the pop culture think piece without going down a 45 minute rabbit hole? That rabbit hole is a whole show on pop syllabus. I'm Cristiano McMiddina and each week on pop syllabus I sit down with writers, thinkers and cultural voices to unpack celebrity obsessions, internet phenomena, and media trends that are driving pop culture. The show is available on all major podcast platforms with new video episodes every Wednesday on YouTube or Spotify. Search pop syllabus wherever you get your podcasts and come stay in the rabbit hole a little longer than you plan.

34:47In a world divided on who people can be, where pronouns spark debate and rights are treated like an opinion, we see something else. You working hard raising kids loving out loud worrying about the same things rent blood pressure what's for dinner and needing care like everyone else. That's why it covered California. You'll find judgment free support and health coverage that shows up for you no matter how you show up covered California for the love of Californians. This fall, LL Bean is celebrating the moment people look forward to all year. The first school drop off, the first sweater weather day, which I'm very much looking forward to, and the first chilly evening around the fire pit. For over a hundred years, LL Bean has been a part of these traditions, crunching leaves and main made bean boots, cheering from the sidelines and scotch plaid flannel, and walking the dog in a rugged field coat.

35:55So grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection LL Bean, be an outsider. All right, LLusitors, let's go to Massachusetts. Let's go west to go to Western Massachusetts Greenfield, which is not Northampton. I've learned a lot about the geography. Over the weekend, a story went viral after the Boston Globe reported on a lesbian bar in Greenfield, Massachusetts. That decided to change its policies. If you haven't seen the story, let me give you a quick refresher because it's quite simple, very simple story. And wait, let's pause here. If you haven't heard about this story, check in because that says a great deal about your relationship to the internet. And I want to applaud you. You have marked yourself safe. Like, let's be in bar story. If you haven't heard about it until this point, I'm, I just applaud you.

36:59I'm jealous of you. So it is called the last stitch bar in arts venue. And that arts venue part is going to do a lot of work in this conversation because I realized that's actually quite important to the context. So the bar opened in 2025, it was opened by three queer people who were friends at the time after listening to some tapes. I don't think there are friends anymore. I would assume. And they decided that this bar would be a safe space for queer people, lesbian, centered folks, but all queer people and that it would always wear masks specifically K 95 masks. They're the big industrial masks. So what happened was recently, they're currently going through some financial issues and they need to make some more money. So they decided to make Saturday. So just Saturday out of all the days that they're open. Be a night in which it could be mask optional. They did not think this would be a big deal. They posted it on Instagram announcing. Yeah, their town was a little like, hey, Gurley's like, hey, girls, like come to this date night, I think, like come hang out and like you. A little little too casual, perhaps for announcement like this to cash the community. Just broke these people. I mean hundreds. If not thousands of comments on the post accusing the owners of being eugenicists of being racist, being able bodied and really calling into question.

38:19What the purpose of this space was if it was not for the community, it had been serving. This story gets picked up by the Boston Globe and goes national. And now that community is the focal point of what I would argue is a lot of anxiety. If not anger by people across the political spectrum who think woke is them as the Washington Post has now labeled a article they put out this week. That a woke is now dead and that the response to this bar's policy shows that woke is not cool anymore and we can all become conservatives. I don't know. So anyway, say you were the first person to flag the story for me. And I really when you flag it to me, I thought it was just going to be a local story that never really took off you and I wore LGBTQ editors. We love these things. But it has become it's out of fever pitch. Honestly. So what do you make of this as a Massachusetts resident that the story is kind of hitting so hard for folks. At the very end of my class last week. So you know three hours after teaching what if my students and we're like, you know, people are putting away their things and chit chatting and everything like that.

39:22I'm usually not in a rush to get out of class and I kind of use it as informal office hours. A student turns to everyone and goes, oh my God, guys, we have to talk about the lesbian COVID bar. And when I tell you I grabbed on my shit and fled the room. You get me out of here ran for my life. I was like the lesbian mass bars during a part and I just like ran out of there. You know, it's interesting. So to me, you know, for all the reasons we've already detailed what's happening at Cornell University is symptomatic of a phenomenon that's being replicated and structures across the country. And of course, this has been going on for some time now. Maybe it's worse, but it's not new. Right. It would never even occur to me to try to apply what happened at the last ditch bar. To other lesbian bars, to other COVID conscious spaces, to other people who wear masks. You know, still I don't.

40:24I read it and I went, what a wild article. What a wild group of people. I mean, I'll just for those of us who really read the story closely, I'll tell you what I bet nor wouldn't try that shit with some studs from the Bronx. I'll tell you that. I'll tell you that nor was talking pretty bold. Pretty bold in this space with these nervous queer white people. Yeah, it's it's it's been I don't know. It's I guess this is what always happens when you even see this. I mean, this happens on social media all the time. You post something funny and it goes viral and you're like, aha, aha, and then it breaks containment. Yeah. And then people who like don't have the context or aren't reading in good will, you know, centrally, it like it just goes left very quickly. And then you're like, damn, I regret even bringing this up. I will say the Boston Globe has said that this is I believe if not their most viewed red story in years, it's like decades. If not all time or something.

41:33I think it is the they've seen the highest conversion of free to paid subscribers in the history of the Boston because of this one on articles. Because that paywall is serious. The Boston close paywall is deadly serious. Yeah. So it's so something I want to hit on, you know, because that I think that's really interesting that like the Boston Globe is a regional paper. You know, it is a post-apricot winner. There have been movies about it. But it's not the New York Times or even the Washington Post and many levels. And so when it did a local story about Western Massachusetts, it makes sense to me. And so I was like, I'm like, this is their state got it. And then the conversation they're reporting on felt like it in community conversation, you know, you and I are part of progressive circles. I have had a version of this conversation. Many, many times when I was at a film festival in Philadelphia the other day, that was mask required and people were having issues there where they were like, this is not 2020. What are we doing? And it made a really meaningful conversation. And so people found a way through it. They to understand who we're taking care of and why we're taking care of folks there. Yeah. Like this article, it's like, okay, these people were especially over the top. I mean, significantly one of the commenters who doesn't even live in Massachusetts. I think lives like several states away said, you know, commented, like, I hope you get fire bombed. Yeah. Like what? What? But again, I'm like, okay, this is that person. This person is toxic over the top unreasonable.

42:56There's no way in which I'm going to go, oh, yeah, all people who take masking seriously are like this. What? Who makes that logical leap, except someone who isn't operating in good faith? A 1000%. There's a lot of people operating in incredibly bad faith. And I wonder, like, what do you think of? Like, I see a lot of parallels between this story and the call, Hannah Jones's piece, which we don't need to speak at length about, it's his own thing. But that, you know, a lot of the comments on that have been that was a conversation we as black people maybe should have had inside with each other. And now it's gone so global. In similar to this lesbian bar situation, it was literally a community meeting of 12 people in a zoom that went viral that people got tapes of and then they made it into a story. So how do we navigate kind of this era of we want to have really complicated, very niche conversations about how we show up for each other. But because it's the internet, a little thing can go super wide. And then suddenly, you're so no are in this article and people are threatening your life, which is happening to one of these people. And that's not okay.

44:02We should not be threatening anyone's life in this. I don't care what you think about the doing. They should not be getting death threats period. But I've been really thinking site a lot about like, what does it say about the moment we're in? Where I can't even have this type of conversation if I want to, unless it may it may go viral at the end of the day. I mean, you just have to assume everything can break containment. But I think I mean, it kind of goes back to the top of the episode. We've got to practice. If we can't have fun, reasonable conversations online about television shows, we definitely can't handle this article about this lesbian bar and God help us if we try to have productive conversations online about rape culture. But we need to know how to have these conversations. I think to a certain extent, I feel like a lot of us have given up agency when we talk about the nature of quote unquote the discourse. And it's just like the discourse is bad. And I'm like, well, we're a part of it. So like learn how to talk to people reasonably. Now, it's worth saying, of course, there are other factors that play there are algorithms.

45:11There are, you know, tech lords, you know, trying to do everything they can to turn us against each other. But I would like to see people putting more effort into one talking to people online the way you would talk to people to their face. Yes. And the other thing is, I think, with all kinds of stories, I'm like, do you even care about like the article, the video, the movie, the, or are you just looking for your angle, your way you can use it? I mean, it's like people acting like they're talking heads on a cable news show. Yeah. Where you're not even listening to what the other person is saying, you're just waiting to get your sound bite in. That's what I kind of feel like is happening. And then I just, it's just worth saying before we fucking wrap. Let's not pile on disabled people. Yeah. Again, I just don't, it's so crazy to me. Like, but I just like, it just never would occur to me that this would become a litmus test for how people feel about disabled people. Because I'm like, no, this, this is a very specific group.

46:18Yeah. Oh, yeah. What are you talking about? You know what I mean? I don't, I don't think this applies to COVID conscious people. I don't think this applies to people with long COVID. I don't think this applies to lesbians. This applies to people at the last ditch. And clearly, these people are a piece of work. And I know that's the case. Because as I, as I've said, in text with you, notably this business, which is only a year old, which is like, this is a lot of heat for place that is only a year old. But I was like, notably, this place has been struggling with money for a long time. One of their policies was like, if you can't pay cover, like, just come in, which I think is, that's never happened to me at a bar club before. And so, you know, it's interesting that this community is making such intense demands of this space, upon this space, right? The one remaining owner, says she's living in her truck, working for jobs, thousands and thousands of dollars in debt. And they're like, you owe us. But I was like, yeah, but before they even announced this mask optional night, it was interesting that no one in the community was like, well, we can do a fundraiser.

47:31We'll do a bake sell. We'll do a queer bingo night. We're going to do something, a thrift shop sell or something like the community was, was never really reciprocating what the space was doing for it. And I do think that is worth the people there interrogating now in the head. Say it now in the side. Jesus nail on the head. Say it. Wow. Wow. But as I was reading this last night, I just thought a lot about, you know, the ongoing issues with gay bars closing globally. Like we are in a deep decline, especially in lesbian bars, especially lesbian bars. And the reason why they're closing is economic bars or businesses guys. Like these are businesses that need revenue. They have bills. They got to pay workers. You know, this is not someone's like fun job. You know, this is like they're trying to make a living so they can live. And if you want these spaces to exist, if you want a bar to exist in a bar is a place where you go, you pay cover sometimes, you buy drinks, you hang out, whatever, but you exchange money for goods. It's a business. You got to show up for them. And so to your point, the fact that like before this even happened, the community wasn't thinking if this place was so important to you that you weren't doing radical things.

48:42To save it. And you're willing to do radical other things around Greenfield to reimagine the revolution that you want to come. I just find it to be really kind of weird. Like weird. Like why was no one taking care of these people? How are you going to a bar knowing that a woman running the bar is living in her car and working for jobs to pay for the overhead here so you can get him for free. Like, that's how girl needs to cut and run by the way. She needs to get out. I'm not your financial advisor. But like put the key and the engine of that truck. And I'm going to get out of the car. And just drive off into the sunset. Oh, away. Yeah. Yeah. Too much. So I'm glad we got to touch on this topic. There's lots to discuss. But the big. This will hopefully be the end of me talk. That's the thing is I'm like, I feel like I'm three weeks. I know how long this has been going on. But I. Days, days. And I think the headline here is don't use a story to dunk on disabled people. Period. Like there's a way to talk about the sat fine and Kiki, but like the ways in which is now drifted the far right talking points. Girl. Do you colonize the cop in your brain? Be careful. Be careful. All right. Well, if that we're going to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with some vibes are on and off.

49:55With cricket wireless, you can count on reliable nationwide 5G because cricket wireless is on the 18 team network, which means you can start listening to that new album that just dropped at home while running errands and at the gym without any hiccups. Find plans with unlimited data for every lifestyle and price point switched to cricket today. In a world divided on who people can be where pronouns sparked a bait and rights are treated like an opinion, we see something else. You working hard, raising kids, loving out loud, worrying about the same things rent, blood pressure, what's for dinner and needing care like everyone else. That's why at Covered California, you'll find judgment-free support and health coverage that shows up for you, no matter how you show up. Covered California for the love of Californians. This episode is brought to you by Woop, the wearable health and fitness coach that gives you personalized insights into your sleep, recovery, strain, stress and overall health.

50:55So you can finish summer feeling more aware of what you're capable of. With Woop, you can better understand how your body is responding to travel, training, late nights, warmer weather and packed weekends. It helps you see with supporting your energy and recovery and what might be holding you back. Visit join.woop.com slash seriousXM. Alright, we are back and of course before we end the show, we talk about other aspects of culture in which the vibes are on and off and then I read a poem. Zach, what you got? Well, I want to shout out a movie we've talked about a bit today, promising young woman, starring Carrie Mulligan, also co-starred in Lever and Cox, who's incredible in it. Who isn't in enough? Who's not in enough? She needs to be more. Maybe she gets her own movie. I thought they were going to set that up to have her own movie. But brilliant movie, watch it if you're feeling anger at Cornell and want a nice like piece of culture to help you kind of think through it more. This is a beautiful film, a heartbreaking film, better really important film, other content like Furious, please run. I was texting Laura who works on our show here at Series XM and she had it seem furious.

52:04I was like, well, get on it. You're you work on the show. You have a serious got to go watch fear. So furious. Please go watch now. And then if you want to throw back hard candy, starting Ellie, I can't watch that again. 2006 show tough, but it's about a young Elliott page finds a predator, a man who's praying on young young people and Elliott fights back. We'll just say that fights back. So watch content showing folks fighting back against sexual violence. I think it's really important. There's a lot of great content out there. Five's are off. Sayyeda learned at me that a Kelvin wave is heading to California. I was not aware that that even existed, but I guess it's some large wave that not large quote planetary in scale. It is a slow motion planetary wave that is somehow set off by El Nino and it is headed to California. And quote will raise the sea level off the coast of California by one foot for months for context.

53:08The sea level of the Pacific has raised eight inches in the last century. So I just want to point out some themes here. Kelvin, a man's name El Nino masculine, you know, San Andreas fault line masculine. Like it's all these natural disasters that are masculine eyes are going to kill us all. So it feels right, but wrong all the same time in Kelvin. I can't wait for you to arrive. I can't wait to see what you do to LA when you get here. We'll see. We'll see. But I'm so excited. You can literally track it on and if you want to learn more, you can read it in the garden. You can track the wave. It's just like making its way. I just really slow, but it's going. It's a metaphor. We love to track men doing bad things. We don't want to stop. I mean, I'm always saying California was over, but damn, I didn't know. Yeah, it's like that. I got so anyway, what about you? What are you? The vibes are on with the reboot of a different world. Yes, there are 10 episodes. I wish there were 20.

54:12I hope it's renewed for a second season is number one on Netflix right now. It comes to us from showrunner Felicia pride and Debbie Allen. It is so great. And I just think a rare excellent reboot because this show takes place. Of course, at the HBCU, the fictional HBCU Hillman College in Virginia, the new cast, the characters are children of the original cast members. So, you know, you see like Whitley and Duane's character Deborah is the main character. Are Dubora? Oh, shit. Her name is literally a joke on the show. Dubora. Of course, Whitley would like come up with it. And what does she say? Whitley, what's her whole thing? Whitley's like they have a home and connect to get or something. I love Whitley being back, but it's just it's really fun because it's not just like, you know, typical reboots. It's either. It just feels weird and it just like why is it happening? But it makes sense, right?

55:12Like HBCUs, legacy students going back, you know, and of course, so much of what happens at HBCU now, you know, relevant news stories about issues of financial aid, issues regarding the way HBCUs have treated differently. The show is wonderful. It's colorful. The music is so good. Everyone is beautiful to see an Arnold plays her mom on the show. But her daughter plays Rashida who becomes double-ruzz best friend and if she's just so great. It's just great. It's just great. It's just great. It's just great. And the actor who plays Shaqille is so fine. I think his name is Cornel Young. He is so fine. Okay. I'm ready to watch. Tyler Perry has already scooped in to sign him for 360 deal. And I'm like, damn it. Stay away from him. Tyler. Stay away from him. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm excited to watch. I'm seeing so much fanfare around it. It's everyone online. It's just so high. And there's Easter eggs and there's you know, you'll be you know, characters that you're like, oh, I guess I'm not going to say they pop up at unexpected.

56:16It's just it's been a real I genuinely smile every time I think about it. And I'm like a warm hug. And maybe it's been a bit of an antidote to the heartbreak of reading about Cornel University. And just thinking kind of the worst about colleges and universities. And it's not that HBCUs are not a part of this as well. Right. I'm sure you know that there have been cases and you know, but um, but this show I think kind of reminds us of of what's worth fighting for. Like what college can be. Maybe that's it. It's reminding us what college can be. And I mean, you know, crease summer's character who is always fun. One of the first, you know, black, you know, woo woo girls, you know on television. She's a she's a professor now in her first class is about bell hooks and love and and and love being and she gets this beautiful lecture like about like there's no revolution without love. We can't save each other if we don't love each other. You know, just like, come on. Come on. I love it. However, the vibes are off because apparently a lot of people online when the show premiered started criticizing Jasmine guys aging.

57:31It was just like terrible and fucked up, but also surprised me because the thing about Jasmine guy for me is that she's a working actor. She's been on TV. I guess it's like if you only watched a different world and like haven't seen Jasmine guy. And so you have an image of her in her 20s locked in your mind. You might be like, you know, like she's 64 now. But she's been on television shows like dead like me. She was Bonnie's auntie on the vampire diet. I've just seen her on television aging beautifully gracefully into her life. And so it just really broke my heart to the fact that Jasmine guy actually had to address the comments and actually do a post saying, you know, gosh, the internet can be really brutal. You know, to you as you age and then you know, you should read the post, but it made me sad that like she even had to address it. But Jasmine guy is really gorgeous. And yeah, I don't know. Fuck you. Fuck you talking about her that way. Like when when two puck first got shot, he hid out at Jasmine guy's apartment because he didn't feel safe. He was worried he was going to get, you know, hurt again.

58:39Jasmine guy has always been that girl. Yes, she is that girl. She is. She is that girl. And aging is a fucking blessing. Do you understand it's a privilege? Some of y'all look like shit now at the age you're you better pray. You better pray. You make it to 64. You should be so lucky to have the opportunity to make it to Jasmine guy's age and still look ugly much less look like her. How do you? You 20 years old looking like you going on 40. Who are you talking about? Jasmine guy. How do I just have it like are we looking at the same? Are we seeing the same person? Oh my God. And our dear friend, Kristiana, if the podcast pop syllabus pointed out, she was like, we got to kind of rethink that whole like black don't crack thing. Yeah, yeah, it was cute. It was cute. You know, but if it's being weaponized against black women aging, then I think we need to ask, who is that adage actually serving?

59:51I hear a topic coming for future dates. So I'm just saying. I'm sorry. I just couldn't I could not believe say you were willing to go to the streets for her and I love this. I did. I know it did not know I was not aware, but here we are a guest. Okay, this is a very short poem by the fierce black lesbian poet Pat Parker. It's an untitled poem, but it opens with an epigraph from Harriet Tubman that says there are two things I've got to write to and these are death or liberty. One or the other I mean to have a man. Here's the poem untitled by Pat Parker. Brother, I don't want to hear about how my real enemy is the system. I'm no genius, but I do know that system you hit me with is called a fist.

1:00:58Woo. Woo. Okay. There it is. Wow. There it is. If you're not familiar with Pat Parker, get familiar. There's a whole book called Sister Love that are the collected letters between Pat Parker and her dear friend Audrey Lord. And I recommend. Oh my god. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Well, listeners, what's your vibe this week? What's keeping them good keeping them low? Check it with us at 5 check at 6.com. Thank you for shooting into this episode of 5 check. I feel out here before we get in the new world trouble. Julia, let's just say we do like a behind the scenes on Patreon and Julia probably has a lot of content to work with. Oh, yes. Because there are a lot of things that are being left on the kind of floor. Thank you, Shenta. Well, if you love this version of the show, you're listening to and want to support this. Please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform and telefront as always. Thank you door producer Shenta Holder.

1:02:03Our executive producers can be a Stanley from Series XM and Brandon Sharp from Agenda and Marcus Home for our theme music and sound design. Big shout out to our Patreon producer Julia Leo. Yeah, send this episode to a man in your life and hold a taser or pepper spray in his face until he's finished listening to it beginning to end and then quiz him. All right. And then let us know you can hear from me. We want to hear from you. Don't forget you can email us at 5check at stitch.com and keep in touch with us. And quiz him. Quiz him. Pop quiz. I leave you. Takes our high. Hello. Leave you red eyes. Keep in touch with us on our Instagram page at 5check underscore. For direct access to our group chat, you can join our Patreon at patreon.com slash 5check. Also, 5check listeners can now get a free three months trial of the Series XM app by going to series XM.com slash 5check. Stay tuned because this Friday's episode is a conversation between Zach and the artist Taylor Mac.

1:03:09It is. Bye. Bye. In a world divided on who people can be, where pronouns spark debate and rights are treated like an opinion, we see something else. You. Working hard, raising kids, loving out loud, worrying about the same things, rent, blood pressure, what's for dinner, and needing care like everyone else. That's why at Covered California, you'll find judgment-free support and health coverage that shows up for you, no matter how you show up. Covered California for the love of Californians. This episode is brought to you by Woop, the wearable health and fitness coach that gives you personalized information.

1:04:10You can also use your personalized insights into your sleep, recovery, strain, stress, and overall health. So you can finish summer feeling more aware of what you're capable of. With Woop, you can better understand how your body is responding to travel, training, late nights, warmer weather, and packed weekends. It helps you see what's supporting your energy and recovery and what might be holding you back. Visit join.woop.com slash series XM.