One Plus One Equals Three: Inside a Throuple with Kink Collective's Cat Orme & Joshua Rodriguez

0:00Welcome to Skin and Soul. I'm Gwennem Karsley, a transformational body, sex, and soul coach. And I'm inviting you on a bold, unfiltered journey into the heart of our humanity through the lens of arrows. This is where we strip away the shame, dive into the unspoken, and embrace the wild, raw truth of our desires. Together we'll crack open the taboo, uncover our deepest intimacies, and awaken the pulse of our sexual essence. Because real transformation, it's messy. It's thrilling, and it's oh so delicious. Buckle up loves. Skin and soul beyond the pale starts in three, two, one. Let's go. Hello, and welcome. I'm Gwennem. I'm your host of Skin and Soul Beyond the Pale on the new transformation talk revolution, which is part of the transformation talk network. And I am so excited today to have Kat and Joshua here from the King Collective. I'm so going to encourage everybody to just go there and see their extraordinary work on the KingCollective.net.

1:00I believe it is. So today's conversation, we're going to be exploring what happens when we put the human being before the label. We're going to talk about King intimacy, trust, communication, people before King, and the realities of building a relationship from two and beyond. Plus, the thrupal. And I know we're missing Natalie today, so we have her as a virtual energy there. But I'm so grateful that the two of you agreed to show up today and talk about this. So I want to start there. You are in a thrupal, correct? And just explaining to people what that means. So let me start by saying thank you for having us on the podcast. Unfortunately, Natalie had an appointment that came up and she couldn't not make it. So we're really excited to be here. In regards to the thrup rule, it's three of us who are romantically involved with each other.

2:01We live with each other. We all sleep in the same bed. But we also are in the pursuit of goals together as well. Beautiful. Yeah. I would say that. I think it's funny because when we do talk about it, the thing about how do we manage sleeping together? Everybody's always interested in the little details about what is it like live with three people. And what I like to say is that it's everything that you think of in a relationship with two only across three people. We live in the same place. We sleep in the same bed. We share all the same stuff. We share household responsibilities. We also work together. We're all three part of the King Collective. But it's just lovely. Josh, when I have been together for a little over eight years and our relationship started and then Natalie's been with us for about three. And it was a very organic process how we went from two to three. And it's my first time doing a full time live in Thrupal like this.

3:06But it works really well. It's really, it's a very beautiful thing. There's some age gaps between the three of us. And that in some ways dictates the nature of the relationship. Natalie's recently taken to calling her and my relationship a romantic. A romantic ship. Because due to our age gap, there's sort of a mentorship relationship that she and I have. She's much younger than I am. So she called it a romantic ship. Which is really very cute. So yeah, so that's just that's just some of it. I just want to add that. Yeah. That. Kat says it's lovely. It's lovely if everyone's doing the work and doing the work, meaning doing their shadow work, finding and looking at the hard parts of ourselves. When there's friction in the relationship that we're willing and able to come to the table and have those conversations. So it's lovely because we're able to do the work.

4:07If we weren't able to do the work, it'd be a much messier situation. But that's that's also the foundation that and the permission that have been given to us. Because we got here through BDSM and Kink and love. Right. In those spaces, open communication is the prerequisite. It's the expectation. So being able to come in with the understanding that in this lifestyle, the expectation is open and honest communication, transparency and leaning into it, is what makes it a bit easier because of the rules of the road here. And I know that the two of you and you educate people on communication. Some of the hardest parts are speaking your truth. So just looking, you know, even within the three of you, what do you think are some of the hardest things that have come up in terms of just being able to talk personally about your own challenges? I think one of the things we've had to navigate and we still actively do navigate is this issue of trauma and and activation.

5:10We, I think it's fairly common vernacular. Now people understand what or have some understanding of what it means to have trauma in your background to be activated in the present time, you know, when something happens that makes your reaction, disproportionate to what's happening right now that there's some piece that's connected to the past. And we all three have it and some of the biggest challenges been navigating when each of us is activated, especially when one person's activation overlaps with another person's activation. And how do we walk through that? We three have different styles and different responses to the way, you know, in the fight flight freezer phone model looking looking at. At trauma response, right, we each have slightly different ways of reacting to trauma. And so learning it being able to make space for one another, being able to be compassionate for each other.

6:13When those things come up has been a big part of of navigating, you know, being okay in the relationships. Yeah, because I think most people think that it's easy, you know, when you hear the joke of like, I don't know, I've had my male friends say, I want to live with seven women and I always think, bless you, they'd kill you alive. Like they would eat you up in a heartbeat, right, because. And I'm not just talking, but it goes for anyone. It's relationships have a responsibility to each person and understanding yourself first, I would think, because. If you don't understand your own triggers and your own charges and you're just walking in blindly. That there's accountability to another and not just one other, but then a multiple other. How do you find, because you went so and might might just from hearing what you've said, you said it happened organically. So it's really a love relationship. Like I always think of, throttle.

7:14Not out of the polyamory, which is silly, because polyamory is more than than than the monogamy relationship, but I always think of it. I don't know why, but that it's it's a family unit. It's this it's equal. Like an equal relationship between three love relationship between three. I don't know, I could be totally off my. Would you say that's true for you? Yeah, I think the poly because there's polyamorous and then there's polysexual. Right, and this is a polyamorous part around our relationship is I'm invested in committed to cat since we since we met years ago. And when Natalie came into the picture, I connected with her first and it was in the direction of a power exchange relationship master slave. And it sounds very like intimidating, but ultimately the agreement is you are here and you commit to helping me achieve my goals. And I'm here to support you and it's help you achieve your goals. And the agreement is I lead.

8:17And when she has roadblocks, she she would check in with me and I would walk her through any difficulties that she would have just navigating life. There's an age gap between us of 22 years as well. So it's like I couldn't be for her at 27 who I am at 47 is one part of that. Another part of it is she has she has her goals in our in my initial intention and still is is to help her achieve them. She because she's gone the non traditional route of she's a dancer. She went to school. She's a trained dancer and she has a heart and desire for the arts. And that's not common and like navigating that as an adult in society isn't the easiest. So it's like we were able to support each other in the beginning. Also in the beginning. She was able to focus on getting her feet underneath her having come moved over from Europe trying to get regrounded back into a American culture and just untangling her own life and trying to get grounded there.

9:23There was a lot of emotion, a lot of trust that was built there. The relationship with Natalie and Kat evolved in and up on its own through. How would you how would you say man? Well we. At first I think Natalie wasn't sure. I mean she's not here to speak for herself but I think you know she came into the relationship more focused on Joshua than she did on me but we're a package. So you know to get him is to get me that's kind of how it it's it's always been and we've been we've been poly with other people since before Natalie. We just you know turned up doing this you know a few years ago we both been committed to this lifestyle for a while. And so she sort of had to get used to me and then it was a slow progression and that's the part that was genuinely organic. I gave her all the space she needed she wasn't opposed to the idea of developing a relationship and seeing where this was going to go.

10:24And it just it's in just being in proximity to one another and then ultimately she moved in and living together and we didn't start in the same bed like she had her own room at first with her own bed and and Joshua would go back and forth sleeping from the bed she was into the bed I was in and then went back and forth but there came a point in time where in no matter who we've been in relationships with prior in my mind there was always the die out of me and Joshua and then other people were just ordered there at a certain point for me it became two we became three in the way I thought and felt. You know Joshua and I exchanged rings as a token of our you know our devotion to one another and at a certain point I said to him Natalie needs one to like we're we're three now we're not too anymore and and that just happened for me very organically it just it just happened that way and and she ultimately has settled into that as well and and so we have our own version of a romantic relationship it's different than.

11:32Persian Joshua's and then the three of us also have a relationship together and I wouldn't say settled in I say stepped into yeah I would say stepped into because it's like the way that you guys developed your relationship was real and she didn't shy away from it like when we did the ring the the offering of the ring tour I was I was nervous she was going to say no I thought she was going to say this is only between you guys but when she said yes it was really. It was such a oh my god thank you so much like it really it made me feel it's like it's the three of us it's it's a love that that it's just it's hard to really describe it but it was a it was validated it was very validating that it wasn't just because for so long it was just everyone wanted everyone wanted. Me a way from cat in some degree or another and it was like.

12:32Other power exchange relationships or any other power poly I had to have a separate life a separate relationship and what I had here and it was it just took away from my energy for my ability to to be present it wasn't what I wanted. Yeah I can imagine that it's all right just as when there's I'm going to call it a primary right when you have a primary relationship and. Having other relations they'll also have demands for you right so so that constant and when when there's discordance of like I don't want you to see this person or I don't want to know about that person that. That must hit hard in terms of how do you then come come back home so do you find is there is there any jealousy that goes on like any petting is that happens. With the three of us yeah the three of you no. No no no actually they they they remind me when I need to be attentive to the other one more because either ruling or calendar or like hey you got to go out with Mama you got to take her out on a date.

13:38Or the other way around listen now is going to be traveling make sure you spend some time with. And they go and they they go out to eat at Indian restaurants because I don't like Indian so whenever I'm done they go whenever he's not around me take advantage of the opportunity to go eat food that he won't eat. Yeah it's kind of incredible it's kind of incredible. So what do you think were some of the hardest parts that you discovered in in taking on the throttle and and what do you think some of the easiest parts that surprised you are. I think the hardest parts have been what I said before about navigating trauma. Because. Some of it naturally comes up as a in the relationships your relationship issues are brought up in relationship so as as I watch Natalie step in. I watched her have to go through a whole round of what her trauma was around that that came up because she was now in relationship and so her relationship issues came up.

14:40I in the meanwhile had walked through some of mine at an earlier time so that was challenging for her and it's you know it's always challenging to watch somebody be distressed. You know when when they're when they're in their feelings like that those kinds of old feelings that are hard to experience. The the surprisingly easy part is navigating the day to day life you know just the for me I've always been the one to take care of the house and to cook and to clean and all that stuff and she stepped in and she shares those responsibilities with me and we do it in a really seamless way which is really nice if I don't have the spoons to like. Get the dinner and cook the dinner she'll be like oh I have it and I'll do it and that part has been really lovely for me to have. You know shared responsibilities like that with someone who doesn't doesn't begrudge me those requests like if the dishes need to be done she does them like i've had roommate situations you know on and off my adult life where it's always a struggle even with non romantic roommates you know like you know people get petty about like you have to.

15:44Cup in the sink and blah blah blah like we have none of that and it's so nice. I think it's hard for myself is the trauma stuff is it's my history and finding finding ways for me to work through my shit because of how easy you guys make it right it's like it's definitely the hardest part is for me. What does that look like for you so I just just because I think people go well what does that mean I don't have trauma they're just wrong they're just. Let me it's around communication what my expectations are when I communicate things and a lot of it's just isn't fair or right right it's like wanting things done a certain way. And it's more because i'm hungry or I'm tired or it's so it has and has nothing to do with them and has everything to do with me but it's it's me not seeing the flags before I get to them. Yeah and still having to unlearn cultural things from my side that either them aren't used to like I grew up here in New York City i'm latino.

16:49She grew up in Long Island Natalie grew up in Buffalo and they're in white suburbian neighborhoods so our means of communicating aren't always the same either. That's probably been some of the hardest is how they receive some of my some of my habits or things that i'm trying to unlearn yeah Joshua and Natalie have recently navigated some of those cultural differences understanding that even the ways that they relate to language is different. And I think it's because of where they've come from you know just for an example we we tease about it now because we figured it out but this word what when someone asks you a question and you respond with what. I know I love that i'm like oh you heard me. It's just thinking a minute to process right. But for Joshua where he comes from using a word just saying what like that right is it is a disrespectful thing. And it's not her Natalie she doesn't come from a background where that's disrespectful so he would get upset when she would say what he would be like why are you speaking to me like that and she's like speaking to you what like what am I doing like you.

17:54And and you know I mean in my in my journey over the years I've discovered that a lot of disagreements boil down to a simple misunderstanding over a particular word right whether it's two different definitions two different. Custom custom arrogant ways of using the term so this what response you know triggered them to understand that they have some cultural differences that they need to navigate in their relationship particularly her coming from white suburbia him being you know a New York City Latino man. And and just that alone creates differences that need to be navigated. Yeah I was going to say do you ever feel that you're you're ganged up upon by two women no no no because like the agreement is whoever's the strongest is the going who's going to lead us to whatever we're dealing with. And I've always needed someone to call me and to check me because I don't I don't have all the answers and I've gone long enough without ask without having anyone to to help me as well right so it's like.

19:04Whenever I'm wrong I want to be told I'm wrong he is a way of being he can be very authoritative and it's it's easy to not want to call him in even when he needs to be called in because he's he has a certain degree of confidence with everything he does we call it drill instructor he's he's former marine and he has a strong masculine right stepping into that masculine role of like he has an inner drill instructor that comes out and it's hard to want to like question that persona. It's hard to want to say. Do you maybe want to take a look at this because maybe this isn't right like but I you know we we both learn to do it because he genuinely wants that sort of feedback when it when it's fitting when it when it's when it's it's worth doing. And so so that's an interest that's been an interesting road to travel. So what do you think has become possible with three that was not possible with two and within the couple so you know have you heard the analogy one plus one equals three.

20:09Sure when I'm counting yes right it's like you have her mind and then you have mine mind and then our mind together when you add a third one is a multiplier it magnifies that by like nine or like 12 or something like that so it's like the potential of the combinations. Is incredible the other thing is that not only wasn't a filler she wasn't because something was missing in our relationship and a lot of times what I've noticed especially in the work that we do helping people build relationships and repair relationships is they're not doing the work inside they're looking for the answer outside. And it's like I wanted to make sure that with our relationship that that wasn't the case that she's not a replacement or filler for anything she's in addition to. I love I think that's one of the things that really drew me to you guys and your stories because it's not it's not about the fillers which again you know and we'll talk a little bit about people before kink bringing out authenticity and connection rather than just.

21:14What I call the thrill seeking buffet table. You know yes. It's like it's great right it's great when you're first starting out and you're like i'm starving i've never done any of this and I and and I think for me polyamory has become kind of kind of trend that. People often look to as that buffet table rather than the depth that's available that's not just oh i'm going out on i mean in whatever floats anybody's following there's no judgment but it's i for me i i will always appreciate the depth of. How can how can I go deeper how can I explore something intimacy at a at a greater depth of which is what the three of you accomplish and and bring to the table which i really appreciate. And I think I also said to you guys remind me of the professor marston and and the wonder women. Yes yes yes i really got that sense of soul family like we're here to create something together rather than oh this is just pure fun again not knocking fun.

22:19Well good it is i mean early early going when natalie and I were still navigating our piece together i sat down with her and we watched that together and we were both like in tears by the end of the by the end of the film. Because it's a really beautiful story and and and there's an age gap and and there's that commitment and and so. We we really resonate with that story and everyone's families have met each other like they both met my parents we've met Natalie's parents we've met cats mom. And it's like it's all in the open to right it's it's quite incredible it's quite incredible. So do you think this dynamic could have happened with another male partner. I don't want to say no necessarily I just. This is just where we landed we didn't go we didn't go looking for this Joshua did at one point say to the universe because he talks to the universal.

23:22And he said to the universe I would like a slave I'd like her to be young and female and. She'll support what I want to do and all support what she wants to do and I'd like her to be a dancer and at that point I looked at him like. And then sure enough she literally materialized we were hosting an event in a friend space and she came to the event with a friend and they got navigated into a play scene together and I'm used to watching him and I know the handwriting on the wall I watched their energy I watched what happened. I knew this wasn't going to be the only time that they ever spent time together. And then you know their thing happened naturally out of that connection that they made just in an innocent enough play session at a party. And everything that you just heard a say flowed from there like we didn't go out looking for her we didn't go out saying well it's time for a third in our relationship let's go find one like we didn't do it like that it just this just all literally happened.

24:29Organically it just kind of came up when she came into the into the picture I was in four other power exchange relationships including the relationship with cat I had three other submissives right yeah I forget what the count was and they were all there all of them were there when Natalie got on the bench. So we could do our scene and when Natalie got on the bench I looked at her and I looked up and they were all looking at me and I I nodded my head I said here it is in my mind I say here we go and it was all history from there. What was the what was the here we go you mean as soon as you met early and everybody's recognition of who is this woman. Well some of the other partners at the time were had a little bit more jealousy they had that that that underlying feeling that they all wish they they could be the only one. And that's just that's not how or who he is it never was that was that was never going to be a thing but there was always that energy around this stuff like when there be a new person in the person before we get upset about it like blah blah blah blah.

25:34And so you know to watch him engage and their energy was really quite electric just connecting you know they had chemistry right from the start from that first play session and and so there's that everybody kind of looking sort of thing I you know I don't I never had that like I've never begrudged him any of the things he came to me this way and you know. Because the truth of the matter is it slices time it slices pie out of the time pie right is like if there's someone new someone's going to get less time and that's and that was also what was difficult about it for me because I don't I found purpose at 40. Right so my my focus is my purpose everything else is secondary anything else that supports my purpose is what goes into this momentum with me and. All of the other relationships and I get we were learning from each other we were we were helping each other in our own ways and they also wanted something separate and it's like now I have to carve X amount of hours a week out X amount of hours a week here exit and and that's not the way that I wanted to build relationships either.

26:49A lot of these lessons I've learned because I've touched iron it's not because I read a book and I said oh this is the right way to do it and then there goes master Josh we're doing it the right way it's like no I made a lot of mistakes I made a lot of relationships without clear defined expectations and boundaries I did a lot of the hey fuck it let's see where it goes and that was because I didn't have any frameless no one sat there and taught me how to build relationships all I was doing was mirroring and. As I was getting more and more experience and and courage because people pleasing was another thing to being able to tell somebody knows very difficult for me so I would just keep saying yes and yes and yes and yes and filling up my plate and it was like it was it was counter to what I wanted to be doing and I didn't know how to not do it. It brings up for me I'm like that's so organically you are but it took you until 40 to figure out that you were poly or was that earlier that was way earlier purpose purpose meaning I have a reason to live okay right it's like the work that cat and I started really gave me direction and meaning of life and direction and purpose and that became the focal point for me relationships were words.

28:11What I was what I didn't want is once I established a relationship for the relationship to become my priority and focus all my energy into the person I'm with it's like I didn't want that at that point and I didn't know how to say no. And now you know how to say no now I've learned a lot I'm a lot better at it I mean there's still times I find it very difficult because if if no result in in cat feeling bad or not only. But you don't you don't allow yourself to be in whole relationships with people anymore because you can't say no absolutely no that's that's that's vastly changed yeah that's a huge lesson to a lot of men I mean a lot of people in general but I'm also I also witness a lot of men who are unable to say no that are stuck in the people pleasing and then get themselves in a mesh situation. And acting out of places where they don't want to be acting and and then everything you know those.

29:20And I was like I was like as I listen to you I'm like oh god gel like I'm a jealous human absolutely like when I when I love somebody I think it's just in my in my and not crazy I'd like to think I'm I mean probably my 20s I was probably more crazy today I think of it more as alignment of oh if if I'm feeling jealous I mean so I'm going to do that. I'm feeling jealous I mean something's out of alignment and generally with me obviously right where I'm like oh what's going on what's what's the feelings and so on but I I always find it interesting to witness a relationship that doesn't experience jealousy in that way that allows love to be completely open and free because my attachment is so strong to well if I care I'm going to have all those charges when you go do something. One of the more around around that because Natalie also is a midnight ballerina to so it's like the idea of like someone's going to have more money than I am and they're going to take her away right like jealousy peaks out from time to time and the question that I got to sit with is well what do I have that they don't.

30:31And reframe my my value through that because it's like what we've built isn't something that money can buy I don't think. Oh that's true absolutely true. On the jealousy front or the not actual jealousy front I've always had an issue with being told the truth. People used to look at the outside and tell me that I was jealous and I finally had a therapist say well are you afraid someone's going to take him from you and I've never been afraid of that. But what I have been is very uncomfortable if I if I'm not being told the truth I come from a long line of men who cheat and that raises in you as a young person an ability to tell when people have been sexual with one another. I can't go like that right you see the energy I know I can sit there and I mean I can tell you notice when they're on the phone right just in the tone and the energy I'm like oh.

31:33They've been together doesn't matter right. You're the first person I said it to the that has a lot of understanding of it. And so he came from a background where he was told it was okay but then it wasn't okay and so he had opted for a style that's like ask for forgiveness rather than asking for permission and it's not like I ever needed to be asked for permission I just needed to be given the information I'm going to go here and I'm going to be with so and so and we're going to play and play as a euphemism almost in some ways for being sexual right or BDSM play but play usually involves something sexual right. So just tell me just tell me I'm going out to Brooklyn I'm going to see so and so and we'll probably end up playing that's all I need you don't need my permission for that I don't I don't need to be granting you permission I just need the information but I wouldn't get it and then I would feel crazy and people would be like oh you're jealous I'm like no I'm not I'm not jealous I just need to know what's happening and over time he got more comfortable with the fact that I wasn't looking to police's activity that my need for the

32:41information had nothing to do with trying to put a leash on him or trying to control what he was doing or it was just information that I just needed to know because the next time you come into the space with that person I'm a no if you don't tell me and then I'm going to feel crazy and like so it was about managing that feeling and that phenomenon that I say it out loud here because if anybody is has that issue it can feel confused for jealousy. Yeah I think the underlying would you say this is true that it's really about our nervous systems like both of you acting or anyone really but you know his asking for permission and forgiveness instead of permission later and you needing to know upfront is really about each person's experience with safety and where the nervous system kicks them because I'm with you I'm like I want to know sometimes I'm like do I want to know but I think fundamentally I'm such an honest person like I'm just it's not going to be a good thing to do it.

33:41I I couldn't cheat for the life of me like I just I it's written on my forehead just just even in an activation of like this is an interesting person in the room right it's just an aliveness that comes through and I don't think we need to hide and I actually think that you know what were there's places of of having respect for your partner right so I was lead with like how does how is my partner feeling how are they you know and then and then also being really honest and allowing your self the aliveness to show up the way you want to show up and and be yourself I think somebody be walk around in relationships on tiptoes right there's like I can't I can't I can't say that I'm part of what I and I and I want to move just a little bit to touch into the work that you do because you say people before kink because I think so many people freak out over the word kink and BDSM or the taboo and and I'd love to hear from you just a little bit around what people before kink means to you.

34:43Well the easiest way to say it is we would call it people first but there's a bank by that name. So we couldn't take the name I mean I sit in that tongue and cheek but the truth is is what we mean by it is you are who you are before anything else so so often in the community and in the events that we would host we would run into people running up to us people I never someone I never knew I never met I don't know them from anybody and they would come up to me know nothing about me and be like oh mistress mistress will you vlog me and I'd be like who are you like I don't know you like hi my name's cat. We just all got tired of being treated in this objectifying kink dispensing kind of away and it sort of pushed us into this like let's just be people first let's put down titles any kind of markers whether they're gender identification orientation politics religion dumb sub what anything let's put all that stuff down and just be people first and that's what it really means that it's core and we just called it people before kink because we were trying to make the point in that community to start with it like who we are should come before anything else.

35:59Another one to look at it is character before credentials right it's like because a lot of people come in talking about how much experience they have and how much of this and how much status like dude are you even a decent human being like do you do you do you hear me talking with it and because we got tired of being objectify we also wanted people who come into our spaces to be able to take the space that they deserve. No matter how much experience you have if no matter how much or how little everyone has a first fucking name and it's not master and it's not mistress I guarantee it right because if I'm not the biggest dog here no there's no big dogs here right so it's like everyone's a little dog because it's important that a person feels safe enough to just exist. One of my favorite things in these spaces when the dominant comes in and they get to submit or bottom because that's what their body's telling them and they don't have to perform there's you don't have to be performative with us. It's like I just want you to be free.

37:00Yeah I have not been inside a BDSM community but I had an experience around rope not last year which I absolutely loved and I and I remember thinking oh you know before I was going to be a little bit more like a little bit more. Before going into the experience and it was and it was a lovely experience because it was a very authentic intimate connective kind of container and what I what I took all the labels away from me because I had no idea what to what to expect you know I've often seen like you know the rope rooms very industrial very I don't know I just scary to me. But going in I thought oh I actually want to be a rigor I want to be the person in control and as I was moving through it. I actually realized like my my my internal fight with surrender and it was such an interesting dialogue and I think what's so interesting about king and in any domain is that it challenges you to meet yourself.

38:04Like this is this is where I really struggle to surrender this is where I have trouble saying no this is where I want to control the situation and and starting to meet yourself at a like there's no hiding there's no running I remember her saying like make sure you say if you tell me about you know as soon as you start to feel the slightest inkling of being uncomfortable because it's going to take at least a minute or two to get you out of that position. Don't wait until you can't take it anymore because you're really going to regret it which means that you're paying attention to your body all along the way so if you got to say something to people around like what king is quite you said. Not for nothing for someone who doesn't know that much about it that was very eloquently put right what you just said is really a lot of it does kink meets you where you are it doesn't allow you to hide it it doesn't cover things up it makes things more of what they really are.

39:12When it comes to kink it's like anything that's off the beaten path that you enjoy playfully intimately right it's people associated with sex and intimacy and it's like yeah that's that's most of the spot time this place that you'll find something like that but it doesn't necessarily have to be overtly sexual. No and it can be as simple as having sex in the living room if you've never gone there or turning off the lights right big on shoes right it doesn't have to be what we consider what is I think in in the layman terms of somebody who's never experienced and is terrified or has a lot of judgment around it it doesn't have to be like the what I think the visual extreme is I go to nine and a half weeks or. Yeah 50 shades of gray I'm like yeah that's a really nice closet yeah everyone goes to the visual extremes right away and it's like it doesn't it doesn't anything that gets your heart racing. It's like anything that makes your your body sweat anything that that gets you wrapped up a little or even nervous yeah and and people are kinky whether they know they are not in a lot of cases you know somebody likes a little slap on the butt somebody likes a little hair pulling.

40:26Well that's just what I do well okay it doesn't make it any less kinky you know according to definition the way we define it like it's anything a little bit extra that brings a little pizzazz or you know makes you sweat or makes you excited or want to lean into what it is you're doing with your partner a little bit more and all of those things are kinky like like he's always saying like give me five minutes and I'll show you where you're kinky. Yeah yeah I mean kink is objective and subject. It's like there's the broad general terms and understanding and then there's what it means to you relatively. So how do you think that couples could or a person could explore their kinky in a safe way when faced with a more judgmental let's say partner I think a people often are terrified like I can't say that if I see that if I reveal that part of the story. If I reveal that part of myself I'm going to be so judge so that's real that's right and it's real my biggest suggestion is starting an education space where I to wrap the music is down and the other tough part about it is generally when one partners into it the other one may not be into rarely is it we're both excited about this when it's introduced and they're not on the same journey together like if and I see this a lot when when people are not in the same way.

41:53It's a lot when when people have been together for a long time. They're both suppressing something they both needed to wear certain mask to gain access and it's like once they're tired of holding those masks. What do we do now and it's like I've already invested so much into this story I don't know how to come out of it and and that's some of the work that we do is we help people. What are you trying to say first of all and then to because everyone knows their partner not really is like you don't know the city as in told you. And often I'm like I have no fantasies like yes you do. And again it's like oh there you know there's something tied from or I mean that you know it's it's that we all have. Yeah right. And this comes back to communication at the end of the day and it comes back to being able to show up authentically right and in relationships where there's been a history of softening the edges.

42:54You know, skirting around certain truths. It becomes harder when that's the entrenched way of not communicating basically to come out from behind that and be able to start telling the truth to one another can be challenging because we're afraid we're afraid we're going to lose our partner we're afraid they're going to judge us we're afraid that oh my god what will happen. But there gets to be a certain point in time where your truth you just you need to be able to speak it and and if you can navigate that conversation or those conversations over time. The need for truth becomes bigger than the than the feeling of fear. Yeah right I can't hold it down the normal afraid. Yeah and I can speak yeah I find that the cost of hiding the truth for myself was so it was so costing and even when I didn't know what the truth was necessarily but I knew I knew there was something that was like right off that was that was buried.

44:03And I think that's one of the most dangerous parts within a relationship when you're trying to hold on to something so like looking at the two of you and one of the questions before I go into those infamous interview questions is is is um. Because now you are coming at with each other as three what the cost is of the dismantling of what. I'm sure that's occurred to you. Say that again or say that in another way so because now now that you're instead of being to your your three the cost of one deciding that they don't want to be in this configuration anymore. What might the cost be or has not even come up. No we're pretty committed at this point I don't think any of the through I mean we're all committed we're in we're full in.

45:03I can't even imagine if one of us were to decide to want to step out it would be fairly devastating to all of us actually it would be it would be really hard. Um that's one one of the one of the former partners one time said to me something like didn't I want to be putting money aside like my own money aside for some future that I would have without him and I said why would I want to live why would I want to live in two futures. I don't I don't want to I'm committed I'm here and I want to do what's what's right for being here and committed and that's it you know. One of the I forget there's a phrase out there that talks about if you want to if you want to make if you approach an island and you want to and you want to be committed to to taking the island burn the boats. Don't leave yourself an out and I and and she was she was suggesting that I should have an out and I'm like I don't want an out it's not why I'm here right I'm I'm here full in and I think that I can speak for all three of us when I say we're all three here all in.

46:20We've had our ups and downs cat and I have had had we we had to we've had to unlearn we've had to to reframe we've had to heal we've had to forgive and it's like the idea is one because one of these power exchange relationships I was in they wanted an exit strategy this is what's going to happen if you break up and shit like that it's like my mind doesn't go there with and as we're here talking about it what I think about is I am. I'm leaning into the emotional maturity that we've developed to say should something go bad and we need to dissolve something that we can talk about it. And meeting it head on right and I think and I agree with you I think if you have a plan B for plan a and you're going to end up with plan B because that's already where your mind is going and it's. And commitment means that there's shit's going to go wrong like things are things are going to be messy things are going to be uncomfortable and sometimes you're going to be bored or angry or like the whole list of things that go on so thank you thank you for your honesty thank you mom it's it's the whole part of it because like.

47:34I started diving into the Bible it's one of the greatest one of the greatest things that I've I started working on is is working on Genesis and how it's essentially an outline a blueprint of human relationships and at the end of the day when there's something wrong if I don't fix it why am I even in relationship right it's like if I'm not willing to come and say this is what I'm feeling this is what's going on this is what's wrong. And then I don't have the capacity or the maturity to be in relationship. Yeah so it really puts the responsibility into my lap as an adult as a man if I say I'm a man if I say I'm an adult then do adult shit and have the conversations. Alright yeah okay no no if you know if you want to say something say it because what I was going to say at the at the height of the challenges that Josh when I went through.

48:36Because if I can say some of his trauma response he he he goes into fight fight is one of his responses and so he would get angry and and be very angry and sometimes it would be hard to be on the receiving end of. Invariably whenever those things would happen there'd be a piece that would drop down those the piece I needed for my own growth the piece I was missing that when we were trying to communicate with one another and we weren't we weren't seeing eye to eye and things would escalate. But people who were close to me looking at just what he looked like from the outside would say to me well why are you doing that why are you why are you in that. And I knew that I was still doing my work and that I still had work to do here because one of the things that I learned is true my life experience has shown is if you have relationship issues they only come up if you're in relationship so if you're in a relationship and issues are up you might as well stay and work on them there provided that we're not talking about like narcissistic abuse or anything like that. Because otherwise if you leave you the universe will always give you the option to leave right and then happily recreate that for you in your next relationship.

49:44Yeah just just because you think you left it here doesn't mean it's not going to show again there until it's dealt with and that's the word. So I knew I was doing that work and I would say to these naysayers I'm doing my work if I get to the point where I'm all done with my work and I have nothing left to work on and he hasn't come along for that ride. I'll look at making another decision then but for right now I'm where I need to be doing what I need to do and I've always known that I've always had a deep sense of knowing even when we were in challenging times together. And sure enough as I was doing my work and I was moving along he was doing the same thing and so we're at a place now which is much better than where we used to be and we worked really hard to get here and I don't know that there are any long term relationships out there you look at people who have been together 20 30 years and ask them what it was like or how they did it I don't know that anything say oh it was easy.

50:47No, but it's a labor I think of it as a labor of love right it's like it's like what ever sport you're into or whatever hobby it's a labor of love it's work but you show up because you love the game I mean you you're in it because you love the experience you love the person you love who you're becoming you might not have a good day or a good game or whatever it is right we're rough rough series. And you you keep stepping back in and and that's why it's like it's not it's not the like I have to go to work. Right it's like I get. And I think our what we were we weren't repeating the same patterns the same problems we work on them and if it did show its ugly face again it wasn't the same circumstance there was there was differences in it we worked on it and then it showed up in a different form and then we had to work on it in that different form and then we find it over and over and over to where if it comes up now it's a conversation.

51:47Versus and I want to keep going because I'm so excited this where I wish it was a two hour show and I'm like okay I'm going to ask you my questions try to get through them in what is it like seven minutes. So what is one truth your body has always known that your mind took years to catch up to. That I'm safe in my body I advocate for myself. It's taken me a long time especially in gay men spaces that in particular that I am capable of advocating for myself and I am able to be safe in my body. I think for me it's about I need rest my body is always known it always knows when I need rest and I have fought it all my life until recently my one of my recent tasks is to just let myself take a nap when I need to take a nap. But my body is always known when I need rest and I just always ride I was always road rough shot over that my bodies need.

52:52I bring my suggestion up as an example because of some experiences that I had in youth and how that changed but my mind wasn't changing. I want to be the one wasn't adopted to the other and the other one had already been caught up the body caught up but the mind one of the other the way you said the mind like to hold on to a story right so the body usually knows way before the mind willing to accept the truth of it. Alright so what is the most intimate moment you've ever had that had nothing to do with sex. What for me what stands out is when Joshua once told me years ago that someone had said to him how much love do you need. It really just caught to my the the quick of my heart because he's got such a big heart and he's such a loving man and the idea that someone would say that to him really. It felt very intimate it felt like a very intimate moment we've had a lot of moments like that for myself it was when I had pure exhaustion and cat was able to hold me like a little boy and she let me cry until I was ready for sleep and then we fell asleep.

54:06Thank you. If you could be remembered for one sense safety. You gave someone what would it be safely. Safety. If pleasure were a language what would your first word be. Fuck. If that's not really a word but if your erotic life had a title like a novel or a film what would it be called. The mad hatters wild ride. That's a tough one. No holds barred.

55:08This one might be tough but what is one thing you've never said out loud that you but you wish someone would ask you about. That is a hard one because I don't feel like there isn't anything I don't say. We do a lot of talking and I've always done a lot of talking. We do a lot of space holding and circles and groups and stuff where we have to lead with a lot of the examples and I've had to go deep into the closet. Can you repeat the question one more time I think I got some. I think I've never said out loud but you wish someone would ask you about. I think for you maybe it's not the thing that you've said out loud but what are the things that you wish that maybe somebody would ask you without just giving it. I wish my mom would ask me about my life.

56:10I think that's it in particular. Well I mean in the same vein I can see why you want to ask the questions so we don't piggyback off of each other's answers but I wish I wish my sister could come at me with more curiosity and less judgment. Yeah right I wish she could be curious about me in my life rather than just judge judgmental and dismissive. From the lack of information. What part of your erotic cells are you still afraid to bring to the light. I think for myself it's around sexual intimacy with men out of fear of being objectified. Like I don't want to be objectified without saying you can objectify me.

57:10For me it's a challenge right now if I'm staying very current I'm a few years the other side of menopause and my relationship with sex has changed. And I don't know say the question again. What part of your erotic cell you still afraid to bring to the light. I'm afraid I'm afraid to bring that to the light I'm afraid to bring the fact that my drive has diminished my ability to experience pleasure is diminished because I don't want to be seen I've always been a highly sexual creature all my life. And it's not this isn't how I know myself all my life and it's not how I want to be seen but it's it's true whether I want it to be or not. And that as well as as I get older my body is changing and my sex identity has been such a huge part of my identity for it to change is it's it affects my psyche in some ways.

58:12Thank you. What dies in you when you pretend and what comes alive when you don't. My spirit. My spirit like my soul. I think my ability to express myself right I get quiet when I'm not speaking my truth and I get small inside. Whereas when I give myself the permission and find the courage to say whatever it is I need to say I come more alive. I hear that thank you. Last two try to get it I know we're down to a crunch so for finish the sentence when I leave this life I want my skin to remember. That I made it.

59:12And I did the best I could. And if the soul has a scent what does your smell like today. Lemon. Peaches. Thank you both thank you both for such a candid and beautiful conversation. And I'm really happy to see you are missed or you are. Thank you. And if there's anything last that you want to own part our listeners with. The only thing I want to do is to encourage them to go to the website and there's a free gift that we have there for them called the desire clarity kid. It's a it's a helpful tool and it's there just for free for the taking and so I would encourage your listeners to go there and take advantage of that. We just want to make that offering to people. Yes, the King collective dot net the King collective dot net. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you and everyone. Thank you for joining me here today and I will see you next week.

1:00:15Thank you for listening to Skin and Soul with me. Join me Fridays at 10 a.m. PST on Transformation Talk Radio. Catch the podcast anytime on your favorite platforms. You can follow me on Instagram at louvallagy. Ready to take the next step. Book a compatibility call with me at guenemcarsely.com.