MK Ungovernable | What Do You Reckon?

0:00For years, Max and I have had many fascinating conversations, often beginning with the burning question, what do you reckon? Those conversations now take the form of an ungovernable show of the same name, a show in which we'll discuss history, intrigue, health, collapse, spirituality, the weird and the unexplained. Whatever stone we wish to turn over, we'll turn it, and examine its hidden underbelly, sometimes enlightening, sometimes gruesome. We'll talk it out in the same way we always have, except that rather than calling from a van or halfway up a telegraph pole, we'll be recording in a studio and inviting you to listen in. We're still on the ungovernable feed, but this is a new and distinct show, separate from the Freedom Tech topics covered on Freedom Tech Friday, the Bitcoin Brief and the Confab. What do you reckon doesn't currently have a sponsor? We're looking for sponsors that belong alongside these conversations and share the ungovernable ethos. Until we find

1:02the right feed, this show is supported by you. If you find value in these episodes, give some value back, boost or stream stats through your podcasting 2.0 app, send Monero, share the show, recommend it to someone who might enjoy the conversation, suggest a topic, or help us grow in whatever way you can, value for value. Before we begin, we want to give a nod of appreciation to Kay Kweller, Foundation and Minin Box, who we're proud to partner with for our Freedom Tech shows. We'd also like to thank Lincoin Mining, altaretech.io and Uncle Jet on behalf of Lake Satoshi for supporting Pleb Minor Monthly and the PMM shows. While these partners support our other work, what do you reckon is not currently sponsored by them. We hope you enjoy these new shows and that they encourage you to question everything with boldness and stay ungovernable.

2:05And now, ungovernable presents what do you reckon? You reckon. I for three, two, one. What do you reckon? Fuck me. What's wrong with that one? I'll tell you why. I can just sliderize it. Can't I? So that we just set it right time? I said that we can just I think we did this one time and we just I just set it five times and you set it five times and you just match that you're like, all right. Okay. What do you reckon? You say you're five first and then I'll try to remember that and like copy your cadence. Okay. What do you reckon? What do you reckon? Hi, mate. What do you reckon? Hi, mate. What do you reckon? Do I have to say, hey mate? Do we want to say that? I don't say that. I'm an American. You say, hey man. Hey dude. Hey dude. Hey man. Hey bro. Here's my what do you reckon? What do you reckon?

3:07What do you reckon? What do you reckon? What do you reckon? What do you reckon? What do you reckon? Hello, John. Hello mate. I was going to say it's been a while. She hasn't been a while. It's been one week. It's been one week, yeah. One week since my last confession. My mic had switched to my laptop mic and we recorded for like three and a half hours. Yeah. And it's gone in the bin. So sorry about that. That's the dedication that we have to our audience. If it's not good enough, we can it. In the can, start fresh. That's right. Could you hear us? Yes. Was it good enough quality for you? Our beloved audience? No. No way. You expect nothing but the best. Exactly. Any of you who have been around for a while expect the best. Any of you who are new?

4:08Because this is a new topic or series of topics. You can expect greatness from us. Just tell you that. And if you have been around for a while, you are used to us talking about mining and the mesh to Dell and what else do we talk about mainly statistics? Everything really. Hardware costs. A lot of mining stuff in there really wasn't that? A lot of Bitcoin mining things for our new audience listeners because we talk about Bitcoin a lot on our global misfits. But we also go down many different rabbit holes, freedom and sovereignty. You name it. We'll talk about it. So we want to talk about it. We do. This is a new show. We're going to be covering all sorts of, I think, still kind of freedom related stuff, isn't it? But sure. Much less tech, much more the type of conversations that you and I would have just on the phone. I used to have in the good old days

5:13when I'd be driving for hours and hours and hours and we'd get time to catch up and quite often the cold would start with, hey mate, what you reckon about and then it'd be some obscure thing which we'd talk about for a few hours. And I just happen to have some sort of background whatever it is that you ask me. So why is sage like, if you will? For me, the inspiration for the show was we have been playing with doing a show outside of the normal topics of this network for a while. And I asked a little Belgian friend of ours, what is it that you like about the shows that we do? Forget about the topic is what's your favorite thing about the show. And he said, well, it's like I'm in a bar. My friends are talking and I'm listening and I'm not talking. And that's my favorite part about the show. So that's nice. So it's just like we're in a bar together.

6:15In you, the audience, our friends are here listening to us. Yeah. I like that. I like that too. The sorts of things that we'd be talking about in this bar or usually my van and your van actually, there was normally whether conversations in your place, was a question around a subject that I thought or half knew that you'd done some research on. I always reached out to you on these type of topics because although we're surrounded by a lot of smart people, we're not necessarily surrounded by a lot of people who will do the research fully before opening their mouths. They're very happy to just talk and have strong opinions without necessarily always going that deep. And what I've always appreciated with you is you don't really want to say anything unless you're very confident in it. Yeah. For the types of things that we're going to cover,

7:17that's really important. And we talked about on the three and a half hour conversation that we went into the other day, how important it is with these types of conversations not to be easily labeled as just the conspiracy theorist who spouts something off to get a reaction. And then you can't really back it up. It makes everything else fall apart even though there is actually often validity to what you're talking about. If you come out with a bot-bastic statement followed by no real evidence to prove that. People just lose interest and so that's what I really want to achieve with these shows is there is some crazy shit that's provable in the world. Unbelievable stuff that we can talk about. We don't even have to veer off into the conspiracy stuff where it's not provable. We can talk about real historical events that opens the door to these

8:21conversations and stops friends and family from just closing the door on these conversations. And I think if I could go back in time, the reason that it does actually matter, it's not just about being right, it does actually matter because if I wasn't so opinionated and sharp and to the point in the COVID times, I might have had a better chance of stopping people from doing silly things because they might have taken my points more seriously. And that has real life consequences. Like my brother-in-law is on medication for the rest of his life and is very sick. And he has a little girl and my sister has to deal with the problems every day. And he's in pain every day. It's not like, oh, he didn't listen to me and because I'm so smart and this and that is like, I could have done and should have done a better job of explaining my case and I didn't. I want

9:27us all to be prepared for the future that when we lay these things out, people don't go, oh, the last ten things he's talked about, I've been nonsense. I want him to say, he's always quite measured and there is evidence to support his belief. So I will listen to the next thing. I want in the show I want to be fact-based but we're still going to have fun with it too. And despite the facts, I may have some fun theories around the facts but we're always going to circle back to the facts and keep it straight up with you. Here are the facts, here's what I think, here's the facts again. We have chosen mind control throughout the ages. Great topic. I think so. With a hyper focus on a mind control buzz word that people use all the time and that's MK Ultra. So what I want to do is talk to you about the history of mind control and religions and cults and then lay out for you the actual historical facts of MK Ultra, what that

10:32program was, who was behind it. There's lots of fun things to talk about there. We're not just going to say 1953 MK Ultra was created by the CIA and this doctor said he got, we're going to go over the facts and what on, but we're going to have fun with it. And those programs with heavy focus on LSD and how LSD was released into the world and what that caused in the 1960s and the hippie movement and how that moved on to other mind control operations that weren't so obvious, weren't just scary scientists in a lab coat. They were more innocuous. They were more spread out throughout society with 911 and COVID and maybe some simple advice from Max and I on how to avoid getting swept up in these organized and unorganized mind control operations. I've been guilty of it. I have wasted much time and energy in the past fighting things

11:34that didn't need to be fought. Well, hopefully you'll be armed with the facts after ungovernable presents MK Ungovernable. A lot of sex and violence. They're great tools for mind control. You mix the two together. That is perfection. I didn't do that. The exploit did that.

12:36Segment 1. The ancient route of mind control. Play-dose cave is the classic analogy for manufactured reality. Prisoners are chained in a dark cave facing a blank wall. Behind them burns a fire. In between the fire and the prisoners, people walk carrying objects that cast shadows on the wall. The prisoners have never seen anything else, so they believe the shadows are reality. One prisoner escapes, climbs into the sunlight, and sees the real world for the first time. When he returns to free the others, they reject him and cling to the shadows they know. The oldest and most effective form of mind control wasn't a drug or a machine. It was the priest class. In the earliest civilizations, the priests positioned themselves as the only legitimate conduit between the people and the gods. They owned the rituals. They decided when the sacrifices happened, what the omens meant, which days were sacred and which actions would bring divine favor or divine wrath. Once you control the calendar, the ceremonies and the interpretation of the divine will,

13:41you control the king, and you control the people. Kings ruled by force. Priests ruled by belief, and belief is cheaper and more durable than force. A king can be overthrown. A god is much harder to kill. So the priests elevated themselves, first as intermediaries, then as living embodiments of the sacred. They wrote the origin myths. They decided which stories the people would hear about how the world began. Why the king had the right to rule, and what happened to those who stepped outside the approved order. This is the prototype for every later influence operation. Create a sacred narrative, make yourself the indispensable interpreter of that narrative. Use ritual and repetition to lock it into the people's nervous system. Reward conformity and punished out. Once the people accept that only you can speak for the gods, you no longer need to hold the sword. The people will police themselves and their rulers on your behalf. That's not religion in the modern sense.

14:44That's the first systematic technology of mind control, and every later version, political, commercial, or intelligence is just a variation on the same architecture. Pute, Fdi Risen. Thank you. I like that Plato's cave analogy. It's often used, but there's a reason for that. I use it with the kids a lot. And you can show them like a simple pictograph, and they go, yeah, okay. So who's the one controlling the shadow makers? Who's the one controlling the fire? Am I the person staring at the wall? Am I the person that's been brought out into the sunlight? Am I the person not being able to be convinced that this person went out into the sunlight and saw the real world? As a parent, you're like, well, actually for now, I'm the one controlling the fire and the characters there. So you see the shadows on the wall. I'm just trying to prepare you for when you go out into the sunlight that your eyes aren't too burned and you know how to handle it. I'd say we're not always the one casting the shadows. The parents. It varies more from the not,

15:52I am casting the shadows. Sometimes I'm in there watching the shadows. Sometimes I've come out to the light. Well, we've been staring at them shadows a little bit too long, kids. Sorry about that. Yep. My oldest daughter will often say that my dad says this. She's like your little clone. She just repeats everything that you say. And I said, well, good. That's okay. But I think she has come to these rationalizations through discussion that I've given her the tools to not be an automaton, to not be a norm, to not be mind controlled by whatever is out there to influence her. And so she'll often be the person that went out and saw the sun and wants to come back and tell her friends. Now she's she's going into her first year of high school. She's soon to be a freshman in high school. And up until now when she goes and tells her friends like, hey, this is actually this way. I'm not even going to bring up the topic because I don't know,

16:55our long-time audience listeners, I think you know where my mind is on a lot of different topics. So she'll go and tell her friends, hey, this is actually x, y, and z, not a, b, and c. Now look, what do you get that from? You know, in our household, this is this is commonplace to have these conversations. But when she presents it to her friends, when she goes back into Plato's cave, they're they literally are not ready to hear it, not able to see it. They just won't take it in. And so I feel bad for her that she's often the person coming back into Plato's cave and trying to describe to her to her friends that those shadows on the wall, they're false. Yeah, because it would be quite lonely in that cave. And she can't really avoid that cave. No, she can't. She's going to school. Even to some extent like universities and your first jobs and things like that, you're not really choosing who you're interacting with. And it's just the general public. And as she is not just the general public, like people who go to universities is a, is not

18:00general public. It's a different demographic. It's only once you have some control over your time and finances, when you're older and have better formed opinions and slightly deeper pockets that you can just say, no, I'm not fucking speaking to that kind. I don't have to. And I won't. Yeah, I'm not going to associate with them because I don't have to. And I won't. Not to be so black built, but you're imprisoned inside the institution with whoever, whoever's there. It's actually really a painful thing to have knowledge or perceive knowledge. Let's just say like we think we're right on certain subjects, but we could be wrong. Sure. So to have the perceived knowledge and to see the world very clearly a certain way, but have to live in someone else's reality, you either spend your whole time and energy fighting with people, make yourself very unpopular,

19:03waste a lot of energy for a straight yourself. Oh yeah. Or you learn to be a piece with the fact that people have different opinions and just to shut up. But that's really her. I really, really struggled when I was younger, really badly. It can actually make you quite depressed, than angry and anxious if I had a sandal daughter of a similar age of yours who's like having to do this. I'd probably get them to learn how to meditate, how to be a piece with not speaking and not having to, because it's really hard. It's actually really hard thing to do to just sit with noise that you believe to be completely wrong and actually in a lot of senses, problematic and pushing the world in the wrong direction to just sit there and understand I can't control this situation. And anything that I do here is a waste of my energy. I'm going to keep that

20:04energy and push it towards something that's truly useful because that is a better thing to do. That's really hard. I think a good tip to, in this, this goes to everybody in our audience. But to resist, I don't want to say it to do it. I'm going to say the word mind control how many times in this episode, to resist the negative influence of others is to be firmly rooted in your beliefs. And not to the point of ignorance. Later on, we'll go over these questions of how to ensure that you're basically a free thinker and not susceptible to this kind of thing. But she is, and I know a lot of people like this, not just my teenage daughter. She really believes the things that she believes. And so when she goes back into the cave to describe these things, she is susceptible to that, that frustration and that desire to try to exert energy to convince somebody else of something that you are absolutely sure of, that often works, that being assured that you

21:10are right, but it does take energy. And that frustration shows much like, you know, you trying to convince people of what we now know to be very much true during those COVID times and your level of frustration was probably palpable to them. What do you so worked up about and then focus more on the fact that you're angry rather than listening to your facts? Oh, yeah, I lost my share quite a few times. Yeah. I regret my actions before we move on as well. I just want to say like one other thing, again, if I could go back in time, I would separate myself from negative people, and spend as much time as I could around positive thinkers and doers, because it is truly infectious. Like I really notice it now, especially now that I'm cognizant of it, I can spend too much time

22:10around a certain type of person and it changes me. Yeah. That took a long time to work out. You know, like people say, like, oh, you are the three or five people you spend the most time with or whatever. And so it's a good way of judging yourself. Like, am I around positive, hard working people who do more than they say the things that they say and the morals that they say they are pulled and everything about their character that they showed to the outside world? Are they really actually that? If you're spending time with people who aren't really actually that, that you probably aren't either, that is a form of mind control. If you're around a group of people at university, like, oh man, the world's fucked and never fucked this. Everything's shit and I can't buy a house and do anything like not with that attitude. What your parents would say, not with that. You can self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, exactly. So before we move on to the next section,

23:11I just want to wrap up here. Who were the people in the cave in ancient times that controlled the fire, made the shadows? How did they do that? Well, as I said in the intro, that would be your priest class. If you imagine yourself in an early clan, well, the most powerful person physically was probably the leader of that clan. And those who maybe have been more of the the thinkers and the intellectuals within that clan want to have influence. So how do they gain influence? Well, they tried to influence the most powerful person in that clan, the proto-king. And later on in organized civilizations, you know, all the texts they'll talk about great kings and giants. Well, who were the ones that created that myth? Who were the ones writing down the text? It wasn't the king. It would have been the priest class that wrote those things down about the king

24:13that created the mythos of the people that created their origin story. And how do you get people to buy into that origin story so that they know that the king is a god on this earth. You are the one pulling the puppet strings of that king, making you the most powerful group of people in that group. Well, that was the priest class. Well, how did they do that? That's what we want to try to figure out and recognize before we move on to the next the next topic. And so you have your like ordinary origin myth, hey, we came over from that town and we settled here and we started hunting and gathering and, you know, getting food and having a community, having children. But you want a more glorious origin myth, don't you? That's that's kind of boring. You want to know that the leader of your group is kind of godlike. So you replace that ordinary identity with with a group identity. Now, you all share a common story and you demand loyalty around that common story. There's a certain

25:17secrecy within that story like maybe only some people can know it or be able to tell it if it's in some sort of oral tradition. And you have created a new reality for yourselves as a group. And if you don't conform to that, if you don't submit to that cult's identity or their perception, their priest class reception of reality, then you're shunned from the group. There's a better technique to do that besides telling stories and peer pressure. I imagine that throughout time, as you went into different places, you knew you experimented with different substances that you found out in the wild, you create hallucinogenics, you create alcohol, you find mushrooms, you find ayahuasca. And once the priest class gets the mechanisms of control on that, the dosing when to do it to have dance and stories and celebration and sex and perhaps rape, torture, violence associated with those altered states, it becomes a science to them.

26:23And they know exactly how to dose when to do it, perhaps coordinate it with celestial activities. Hey, we're going to have a, we're going to have the winter solstice. We're going to have the summer solstice. So now let's have this joint ritual that we control that we say when it happens. And you're all going to be drunk during it. And we will be suggestive during that time. And to me, this is just reading through stories and knowing things about ancient civilizations, probably how a lot of these cults were cemented and the priest class were cemented in, and their use of mind altering substances in order to do that. And it still happens today in different forms as well. You don't just have to go to the extremes that we're talking about. If you stop drinking and you go and do it evening out with the same group that you did a month before when you were drinking, you probably have the

27:23same sort of conversation, you do the same sort of thing, you go to the same sort of places and your experience and your thoughts are going to be totally different. You're probably going to think what I like to shit these kinds of talking about. Yeah, this is fucking stupid. These guys look like idiots and I'm bored. Yeah, these guys look like idiots that over-confident, you probably think, oh God, I'm embarrassed if I was that. But the time when you're in that stay and you're with that group, it's great and it's great fun and you have a really good time. So it just shows how the state change of you as a person and your character can happen with a seemingly normal, most people don't even really say it as a drug. You're with your group of friends, you've had a few drinks, you don't even have to be hammered, you're a very different person to what you are without. Adrenaline, dopamine, those are drugs that were able to get ourselves to

28:25produce. These ancient rituals, there's plenty of examples of actual drugs that they use. Of course, alcohol that makes the most sense. We know that to be a very ancient chemical. I don't know when we figured out making alcohol with the kind of say, oh, the Egyptians made beer. I'd like to dive a little deeper as to when people started making alcohol. Was it really as simple as like eating a lot of rotten fruit and then figuring out the fermentation process beyond that? Honestly, I'm not sure. They say monkeys do it. Eat rotten fruit, get drunk. So well, if monkeys did it, then we did it too. Also, so drugs, animals use as well. It's not like just humans use these drugs. Well, they're smart. Yeah. Trial and error. Other things that we've done trial and error with that humans have discovered are mind-altering drugs. And most likely, the priest of class used that would have been Ergot. And we're going to get into LSD. And that comes from the Ergot fungus,

29:31which grows on rye when it's too late. And in medieval time, they call it st. Anthony's fire or holy fire in a cost hallucinations, burning pain. It caused gangrene. I would try to figure out exactly the dosing on that to avoid gangrene. Because you don't know where you're going to get gangrene. It could be on your hand, it could be on your toe, it could be somewhere else. I don't think the trip is worth it. No, I've never done it, but I can't imagine it would be. The ilusinian mystery, so this goes back to ancient, ancient ancient Greece. That would be a multi-day initiation where they drank kikian. We should create an alcohol called kikian, bring it back. And it probably contained the Ergot alkaloids. And you did the same thing. You had a life-changing vision, and you all shared this kind of death, rebirth, ritual. The Vikings, they used the fly ageric. I've actually read two different things. They may have used the red mushroom with the white

30:35spots. That's typically what they say the Viking bozerkers took before battle, but people say it might be something else. I don't know, it's called black henbane, could be the other thing that caused the berserker rage. And that was some kind of seeds that they used. Selesybin mushrooms was called the flesh of the gods. They asked, tech call, that the flesh of the gods. Peiote. Peote, you need to go on a peiote trip. The mescal and cactus in Mesoamerica, ayahuasca. And you show you even had somebody that was big into doing ayahuasca journeys. So go back and type in ayahuasca into the ungovernable search, and you may find that episode. I don't know. Ayahuasca, we've done LSD, Karen's been on a few times talking about some of his weird and wonderful trips and communication with entities through it, and all sorts of things like that. Who again is a good person to talk about things like that because he's a little bit

31:36crazy in some ways, but he's also pretty measured and very smart, so he's not a bullshitter. No, he really believes it. Whether it's real or not real or whatever, his perception is real. So the world that doesn't happen here, my daughter. She listened to that. She did. Yeah, she did. Oh, she sat there on Halloween going, is this the end, Daddy? That is the absolute truth. Karen's going to feel guilty now. Don't feel guilty. She does do. I talked, I talked her down off the ledge. The last one I want to mention is me as a oil and gas man is the Oracle of Delphi, where the the Oracle's. They were cool. I just said it just there. Where the Oracle's, there were these young women and they would go into caves and fishers in the earth and get into a trance and tell you the

32:38future. Well, they were probably just high on methane or ethylene or something like that. The gases from the cave made them high. You'd go in there with the Oracle and you'd have this shared mind altering experience. So whatever they said, well, that's that's gospel because the Oracle said so. So for a long time, we have been creating this shared narrative being guided by the priest class with the use of drugs and alcohol to help playa, to help separate ourselves from our baser conscious self, to put us in a dream like state, to be more suggestive. And maybe the priest class before that time meant well. It wasn't just about getting you to convince you that the king was your ruler and you must do what we say. Maybe they really were trying to guide people on a different spiritual plane. I don't know. I don't know them. Maybe and also if you are experimenting with these types of drugs, if you experience something, many people will use a

33:44certain drugs and they'll say reality on this drug felt much more real than reality of it. And when I come back to normal life, it feels like this is computer generated version of life. It's not real. It's not as real as I experience. So then if they do experience that, you can understand why they would come back and say, I've got some information that you guys need to understand. Here it is. It doesn't mean it's real. It doesn't mean it's right. It also doesn't mean it's not right. It just, you know, we might not understand it, but they're not necessarily always trying to control people's minds for a bad purpose or a conniving purpose. It can be, they're just trying to change your opinions to be similar to theirs because they believe it to be right. It's not control for a bad purpose. In my research in doing all this, I am thoroughly convinced that all the

34:44purveyors of mind control feel that they're doing it for the right reasons, doing it for the greater good. No, they are convinced of this. No, I don't think so. I don't think and there may be a few characters in this story as we tell that probably died going, yeah, it's a fucked up shit and it was awesome. But I think most of them are like, what do you, I'm the good guy here. No, well, I disagree. Okay. Okay. Overall, I'd say maybe they were 49, 51 on they were the good guy. I've done some bad stuff, but you can believe that you're controlling someone's mind or swaying their opinion for your own good. We do that in all aspects of life all the time like salesman do it. It's best for me if I sell this car. It might not be the best car and it might not be the best car for this person and it might not be at the best price and it might not have the best spec. But I'm

35:44not fucking sell it because it's the best thing for me. And I'm going to use mind control techniques. I'm going to mirror them. I'm going to do 50 other things that are going to make sure that I get the results that I want. That is mind control. You are making someone make a decision that there isn't necessarily best for them. You're not not full control, but influence. Yeah, like a strong influence. That's what I mean when I say people do use mind control and it isn't the best for the person that they're doing it against. We do with our kids as well. We're molding. That's what we start the episode out with. We're molding our kids a certain way of controlling their movements and their mind a certain way, pushing them in a certain direction. And sometimes they might say, fuck you. That's wrong. They're going to complete the opposite direction. But daddy knows I think we all use mind control to some degree. And usually there's an element of selfishness

36:47involved. I want to move on, but I can't, I can't let this one go. All right, so let's take the kids. There's selfishness involved. But there's also knowing that you're right. The assuridness that this is the right path. That's true. You know, like say the pre-class, let's compare the pre-class to your stoner buddy in high school. It was like, man, you gotta try this stuff, dude. He's doing the peer pressure things. He's not necessarily a drug dealer, but he thinks it's so great. And he just wants everybody to experience this thing. Like when you go to a restaurant, you eat a good meal. And you go, other people have to try this too. I want to share in this joy. So perhaps some of the pre-class were dudes that just wanted to like share the vibe, man. Okay, along with that. All right, very well.

38:00To bring yourself back to life. Second two. Origins of modern US programs. The tried and true civilization tested ancient toolkit, the pre-class, the cults, the altar, the shared myths, the peer pressure that turns a group into its own police force. And of course the drugs, alcohol, ilusinian mysteries, opium, milk of the poppy, Egyptian ritual cocktails of alcohol and psychedelics, mushrooms, peyote, ayahuasca, the fly, a garrick, the Vikings may have used before battle, substances taken together under controlled conditions to dissolve the ordinary self and fuse people into a single altered state. Sex, ritual, intoxication, and fear have been reliable levers. War itself is the greatest mind control system ever devised. Drugs are optional,

39:04useful accelerants but not required. Fear, conquest, retribution, and the raw instinct for survival are enough. Once a population is convinced that its existence is at stake, ordinary moral limits dissolve. People who would never harm a neighbor in peacetime will cheer the fire bombing of cities. The same levers the ancient priests use. Sacred narrative, group identity, ritual, peer pressure gets scaled up to industrial size. The story becomes us or them. The ritual becomes the mobilization, the propaganda, the shared sacrifice. The altered state is collective rage and collective terror. Two world wars in 30 years burned that circuitry deep into the Western mind. The cold war, the ultimate reflection of that burn. The scar was so profound that after 1945 a large part of the intelligence community concluded that anything. Drugs, hypnosis, electro shock, sensory

40:05deprivation, assassination was justified if it might prevent the next existential catastrophe. That is the direct line from the ancient blood altar to the laboratories of MK Ultra. The ancient patterns of mind control never disappeared. The priests simply put on a lab coat, received a security clearance and got to work. The priests put on a lab coat. You really like that one? I really do like that one. It's really good. It's so true. Maybe they forgot to wipe the blood off or put away their sacrificial knife, but they're there. The same guy jumps out to me from that and the conversation we just had, what you're saying. They truly believe they're doing things for the right reasons. I think that's something that we should be clear about as well rather than being, oh, we're on this side. We're on the side of freedom and therefore anything that's government or anything that could be seen as anti-freedom is

41:10definitely done for the wrong reasons and that the people don't believe in what they're doing. I think it's quite easy to go down the route of like government evil, everything they do evil controlled by puppeteers at the top. It's a good plug for a movie. Yeah, it is. It's definitely not there are bad people in governments for reasons, trying to do bad things, but I do think a lot of the time if you try and take yourself out of, which is what I've been doing before this recording, is trying to take myself out of my own brain and saying, what would you have done if you're in control of a military and if you're concerned about this attack or that attack or that your enemy has this technology or that technology. I can quickly see how, especially mind control by whatever means even if they are brutal and morally wrong against a few people. I can see if

42:17you're like, that's the common good. Yeah, I mean, you can see how people do it. I mean, I hope that would never be me, but I can see how I could think that way and the power that you wield from doing that. I think in the last time we tried to record this, we were talking about like, it's easier to shoot somebody than stab them up close. Yeah. And it's easier to press a button that fires a missile and kills people that you'll never see. And it's even easier to push a narrative or a way of thinking. And you know that it's going to push people in a certain direction or knock them off course slightly or bring about a desired outcome that isn't necessarily mess for those people. You don't even see it and there's no blood on your hands in the literal sense. And so you could easily be like, well, this is going to save millions. I mean, this is the

43:20right thing to do. Yeah. By not doing it, I'm actually denying the world of peace. You know, I'm like, it's it's my job to do this. You've developed yourself quite a God complex here. Yeah, it's easy to do. So you're the Western powers and you've just won World War Two, whatever winning means. Japanese were nuclear bombed into submission twice. Berlin has been invaded, a Dresden fire bombed. The German people are split pretty quickly into two different states. You discover the atrocities committed. Well, I mean, we can start with the the Bolsheviks, the atrocities they committed. I wish I was able to go deeper into Soviet mind control studies and torture and different biological programs, but I don't know. I guess I just need to find the right book. So suggest a good good book for me there. I'd like to dive in on that side and

44:22not focus so much on the West. The Nazis, you come to find out that they had a very robust biological experimentation arm that they froze people, put them in high altitude, submerge them and see water and how they drown different besides regular water experimented with people and typhus and malaria and different mustard gases, nerve gas, they sterilized people. They just had a robust biological and chemical experiment arm with people in concentration camps and Eastern Europeans, whoever else wasn't part of the Irian race. What are you saying about books? The white pill by Michael Malice is quite good. On the like the Russian deep into the Bolsheviks? Yeah, the Russians, the Bolsheviks, some of the mind control stuff like how people were treated human experiments, all sorts of stuff and it's good for that because it's looking into how these things play

45:27down not just in the West, but also it's good to see why the West did some of the things that they did right in the wrong way because when you come to learn the horrors, I read that book and I was like feeding physically sick. It's fucking. When you read about the Hobbit of Moritz, it's more atrocious than anything you can imagine. It's so fucked. It's like hell on earth. And so if you come to learn that and you're like, well, I don't want our country to go that way, you could see again how you would do anything to stop that. The Japanese did a lot of similar stuff. You'll always hear about the Nazis, but the Japanese were doing some crazy shit in in Manchuria and they're a unit called Unit 731 where they did the same thing, but but I don't know like a little more sick. If that's possible, yeah. Different biological experiments, vivisections without anesthetic, just to see

46:30how that worked. Give you the plague or anthrax or cut your legs off and see how long it took you to die. Give you a frost by hypothermia with put you in a pressure chamber and see how long it took to crush you to death. The Japanese really saw the Chinese as subhumans. They had a score to settle. So we win the wars and our scientists find out what these units have been doing and they're like, hey, there's some valuable information. Hey, that's great. Why didn't we think of that? Yeah, like you're not just going to let this all go right. The K you put all these people on trial, right? But what about the ones that aren't like so guilty? What are we going to do with them? Can't exactly bring a bunch of Japanese over here to the United States because well, really, we just put them all in internment camps recently and you're not going to trust some greasy yellow slopes in your laboratory, are you? But the Germans like, well, hey, the United States is

47:34a pretty darn German country. You know, ethnically, bring the Germans over here. They learn English good. We could use their scientists. So that started Operation Paperclip. Where a lot of them were brought over to be rocket engineers. That was a big deal. But they had a lot of experience in biological and chemical warfare. They were figuring out ways to make a truth serum. That was a big thing that the intelligence agencies wanted was a truth serum. Before we get into MK Ultra and the LSD experiments, they wanted to just take in and give you a truth serum and you would tell us everything that you need to know. Now, the beginnings of that were once we went over into Germany, we started a place called in a place called Villa Schuster where they had the rough boys. Just basically capture people, beat the shit out of them and see what information that you can get out of them. And then once we started to understand a little bit more nuance of how these different

48:34Nazi programs worked, we're like, hey, why don't we use drugs? Why don't we use suggestion? Why don't we use electro shock? Why don't we use sleep deprivation? These different techniques besides beating the shit out of somebody. Will a truth serum, you could see how that would be seen as a much kind of thing to do than torture? You could see this. I'd say if we can get a truth serum, that's a much cleaner way than like if I can peeling someone alive or whatever horrible shit they're going to do. Yeah. So with the first official movement from the rough boys and just beating the shit out of people was called Operation Mockingbird. No, not Operation Mockingbird. Operation Mockingbird was the, say, blue bird? Well, yeah, it's blue bird. But I want to go over Operation Mockingbird real quick. People say Operation Mockingbird, like that is the CIA directly telling journalists what to say and in newsrooms. That's not official. Like there were campaigns like that for 40, 50 years

49:37and probably still go on today. They weren't officially called Operation Mockingbird. Just as a side, I had learned that, kind of if I learned something I have to share with you. So it's called Operation Bluebird. Thank you very much, Max, for for covering that. So that's where they went beyond just beating the shit out of you and hypnosis, drugs, like I said, the isolation, sleep deprivation, special interrogation, they would call it more pointed way to do to do an interrogation. And that was later renamed Operation Artichoke. Max, what would be the best way to torture you to give up the information that I need to get from you? What would work on you? Noise probably. Noise in the light. Yeah. Because you're autistic. It fucks me out, mate. Yeah. Having kids when noise and light and just general over stimulation is in many ways like a daily torture.

50:40So I am getting much better. I'm probably less susceptible than I was a few years ago. But yeah, it would still probably still probably that like a flickering light and a repetitive noise, like a clock. I don't know why I'm giving all this away because someone will get my seed words out of me just like putting a clock in my room. Well, that's why I ask a ticking clock. I can't actually deal with. I have to physically remove the clock. I can't stop thinking about time slipping through my fingers and knowing that that next click is another second gone. So I actually can't operate in that room anymore. So so just put a load of clocks and light and noise. That'll fuck me right up. Okay. Good to know about you. Before I tell you what my my secrets are to get what you want out of me. The CIA has used that many times. Really? The playing music. Yeah. There was the thing with the president of the Philippines, Marcos. Do you remember him? No, you weren't born. They did that to him. They like played Van Halen on on loop. I wish I could

51:41remember what exactly that they played, but but it worked. He's left his famous for having a lot of shoes. A Melda Marcos. Okay. Having a lot of shoes. Isn't every wife famous for that? Every dictators of a third world country's wife. Yeah. I didn't have shoes when I was a little girl. So now that I am the prime minister's wife, I want lots of shoes. Hi hills, because I'm short. During the during World War II, Churchill had had found out that the Nazis were way ahead on biological and chemical warfare. Doing what Churchill did during that time, he asked the Americans to help him out. So we did. We set up a chemical and biological operation at Fort Dietrich, which I think is in Maryland, Maryland, Virginia, you know, everything's everything's in the government is that way. When they decided that they're going to start to do a lot of this secret spy stuff with drugs and torture and mind control, they decided to set it up at

52:49Fort Dietrich. I think they realized there were some limitations to Bluebird and Artichoke, or that the operation wasn't quite pointed exactly where they wanted it to point. And they had discovered in 1943. 1943 would have been when Albert Hoffman had published his research on LSD. So you had Albert Hoffman worked for a pharmaceutical company in Europe. I forgot that too. I think that's another one. Maybe Denmark. It doesn't really matter. Does it at this point? It doesn't. In I remember this in 1938, it was called bicycle day. So he's experimenting on LSD. He was trying to see if the the rye Urgot could help with like vascular disease, like open up the blood vessels. And he's experimenting on it. And he absorbs a little bit through his skin. And

53:53rides his bicycle back home and trips his balls off and discovers, hey, that this has a lot of hallucogenic effects. So that research gets out in 1943. And it enters the intelligence and academic zones. And they're like, hey, we can use this for our operation Bluebird and Operation Artichoke stuff. I don't know if sodium pentathol at the time was invented, but like I said, they were experimenting in lots of different ways, lots of different drugs. They tried alcohol. What we know what alcohol does. They tried heroin. They said, well, you know, heroin's good in everything. If you have an addict that really wants heroin, Coke, it certainly had some uses. But they thought this new LSD could really be something. So you have the scientist named Dr. Sidney Gottlieb. And Sidney Gottlieb to tell you a little bit about him. He's like a Brooklyn born Jewish guy. Very different from the rest of the CIA, which were all kind of Anglo white boys,

54:58you know, Protestant white boys, Ivy League kind of guys. And here you have this this chemical scientist, Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, a Jew from New York. He's got two club feet. He's got a stutter. He doesn't exactly fit in with anybody else when he gets married to his wife Margaret. They move to like a homestead. And he has goats and he makes yogurt. And he grows vegetables. And they don't have running water. And he's a lot like some early hippies homesteader guy. Even the hippie comparisons, he's kind of into like Eastern spirituality kind of thinking, you know, he's he's not practicing unpracticing. No, he's exposed. His wife came from like a missionary, a Protestant missionary family. They just go to India and do missions there. So these two people met and they just became like these spiritualists kind of people, which if you think about in the in the late 40s and 50s, that really wasn't that so much a thing as it was like in the late 50s and into 60s.

55:59The Beatles hadn't gone to India, you know, the teachings of Helena Blavatsky and Theosophy hadn't made its way over here. You did have a little bit where you had Houdini would try to like debunk these people that got out Ouija boards and contact their dead ancestors and ghosts. It's like it was a thing for a little bit. I don't like that shit Ouija boards. I don't like that shit. I don't like that shit either. I don't like to be anywhere near or associated to anyone who does any of that. No, wait me. She's and demons and Ouija and no, no, thank you. That's that's that's not your grandma. That's a demon, bro. Hate to tell you. No, well, thank you. As a side who Dini was like, well, that's actually all bullshit. Let me prove it to you. He was big into debunking those people. But anyways, I digress Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, spiritual guy totally didn't fit in with the rest of the CIA. Well, he heads up a lot of the the chemical division part of

57:00Bloomberg and Artichoke and gets interested in LSD himself. I think he got interested in LSD, like outside of the CIA simply because he was one of these like hippy-dippy-free thinker homesteader kind of guys. So it kind of coalesced into this. Well, the CIA wants to set something up at Fort Dietrich and they wanted a chemical operations. He also had create tons of poisons from sea urchins and clams and they were going to do all kinds of secret spy stuff. James Bond, he was like, you from James Bond, he made all of the cool stuff exploding cigars, poison toothpaste. Tell me the one about the sea shell. That's the best one. Yeah, they were trying to kill Castro. So they had come up with a number of different techniques to kill Castro and they were like, exploding cigar. That's not going to work. He knows the cigars too well. All right, a poison wetsuit when he puts the wetsuit on. He's going to be poisoned. And our inside guy just actually gave him a new wetsuit. So that's not going to work. All right, how about an exploding sea shell? He's an avid diver. So let's make a sea shell that's so

58:05interesting and cool that Castro will be compelled to pick it up. And when he picks it up, it's going to explode. So Sydney Gottlieb was head of the technical services division that made all of that cool stuff. He didn't just just do LSD. He's a neat guy. I mean, I said this a lot and then the previous recording I'm gonna say it again, the guy is kind of neat. Whether he's a sick fuck or not, I don't know, the guy's kind of neat. Am I in my bad? Does that make me bad? We can all be friends or think slightly fucked up people with clubbed feet are cool. He's not all bad, is he? Well, I'm not going to go that far. You want to be his best friend. I think I'd want to like go to dinner at his house. That seems like that. I would want to go to dinner at his house not knowing all the fucked up shit that he did. I would like to spend time with some people who I think are a bit fucked up. I'd like to have a drink or have a chat with people

59:05who have done bad shit, but they're also done interesting stuff. It doesn't mean I want to be their friend, but it's a draw that have a conversation with Gottlieb, and then I would like the average university's to you. Oh, sure. Yeah. Like at least you can learn even if it's fucked up. Even the people that work with him, like in the technical services division where they were making the secret spycraft stuff, I thought this was another interesting story is that the show gets smart or mission impossible beyond the 60s, and the CIA switchboard would be flooded with field officers who would call in and go, Hey, I saw on this secret spy show that they had an exploding bottle of champagne. Can you make that for me? They would just get flooded like Monday morning with all of these calls asking if they could make the stuff, but the people that work with him in that technical services division always said like he was the best boss. He knew your birthday, you know, your wife's name, you know, he was just very personable. You could go to his desk anytime

1:00:07and he'd be eating some homemade yogurt that he made from goats that he milked on his homestead. Just I don't know. Interesting kind of guy. Anyway, MK Ultra officially kicks off in 19. Damn it. Maybe with these dates, 1951 maybe 51 or 53. How's that? That's good enough, right? That's good enough. Let's say it's 1953 because I think that makes more sense. We'll put it all in the show notes anyway. How about that? Very well. All right. So Sydney Gottlieb, our priest who has put on a lab code, his strategy with LSD was we can pretty much replace yourself with whatever we want while while you are in this suggestive state. There are many, many different sub projects involved in MK Ultra. There were 149 sub projects across 80 institutions and these aren't I don't know some crazy insane asylum institution. These are universities, medical centers,

1:01:14prisons, two of the most famous prisons were Atlanta penitentiary and the Lexington Narcotics farm where they would experiment for suggestibility and control on the prisoners there in these two institutions. And you know, like within narcotics farm, if you were a heroin addict, they would just say to you, hey, we'll give you heroin if you submit to these tests. And they were like, yeah, I like heroin. I'll do it. Yeah, that's pretty much how it works with heroin and crack. It's like, yeah, I'll do it. Well, I haven't told you what it is yet. Now, I'll do it. Yeah, yeah. But but it's going to be yes. I didn't even finish my sentence, buddy. This later got out into the ether because there were like semi-famous people that were part of these experiments. There's a like a two-bit mobster guy in Boston, they'm whitey-bolger, who had later said that yeah, in Atlanta, I was part of those experiments and I nearly lost my mind.

1:02:15I was so high on on LSD, I would have done anything that you told me to do. So it had effects. It was just you couldn't exactly control it. It wasn't a catch-all. So you might you might get somebody to do some fucked-up shit, but you couldn't exactly control them. It's a weird thing to take from someone. Your sense of self. It's like the most personal thing that you can take from someone because it literally is their personality, changing someone's thought patterns or memories. I think that's why when people talk about MK Ultra and they talk about these things, it hits harder in a lot of ways than physical pain or torture. Or it feels more sick and more twisted to remove people's memories and replace people's memories with things that are not true because they're no longer even themselves. It's just such a fucked-up.

1:03:20Your personality kind of is your soul. I know you're probably going to have a different, like, we're thinking about that being a god-dog man, but like, if I was trying to like think like, oh, what would be my soul? I could come back as any body, but if I still have my own thoughts, my own memories, then I'm me. People will reject some of the parts of history as conspiracy theory. Even if there's proof, even if there's evidence for it, people will quickly reject it because they don't want it to be true. It's like, I don't even want that to be out in the world. Trying to convince someone that a government agency has operated on people and replaced memories and done some fucked-up things like, well, I don't want to hear that because then it's like, it's real. And then if they did it then, well, they could do it now and they could do it to me and that's scary, so I don't want to hear it. But again, I think it is important, even if we don't want to hear certain things because it makes us feel uncomfortable, it's important to know it because

1:04:24if it has happened, it is likely to happen again and likely is happening now. It might not be in the exact same way. It might be more sophisticated in some ways. It might have changed in some ways, but to think that people aren't capable of removing parts of you who you really are and replacing it with other parts that's really them is like taking that bit of you and replacing it with me or my thoughts or a goal. Yeah, it's thus fucking scary. Absolutely. In like five minutes, we'll talk about two of the most effective MK Ultra evil mad scientist guys and how they were able to remove self and replace self with actual real results. They did it. But on a fun or note, let's talk about mid-operation midnight climax. That is more fun. Certainly this is more fun. All you want is to

1:05:29be involved in operation midnight climax and your best friend to have Club Fee. Yeah, that's it. So there were, like I had mentioned, there were 149 different sub projects across 80 institutions for MK Ultra. One of these sub projects was called midnight climax and that was ran by a Narcotics officer called George Hunter White. I wish I could remember all the things we said about George Hunter White in the previous recording. But the one thing I'll say this again that stood out for me was they called him like a fat blob of a man, a bald human bowling ball. And how big was this man? Like did he look like Kingpin or the blob from X-Men? No, he was 5, 7, 210 pounds. This giant fat blob of a man. He's literally, yeah. Oh my god, I have to be besides being bald and not that short. I think I'm too close to home here. Also, remember back

1:06:38then people were a lot smaller. So 200 pounds. Yeah. Was probably pretty big then. He was a larger than life man. Yeah. And that was said about about him. He was a Narcotics officer known for doing things like taking a sacred blood oath with a Chinese opium gang and betraying them because so he could bust the opium gang. He did like secret spycraft stuff in the Soviet Union. He said to have killed a Japanese man with his bare hands. He had one of the largest pornography collections in the world. All kinds of crazy SNM stuff. He was into high heels and boots. His wife was his second wife. His first wife called him a fat disgusting blob of a man. Maybe she was a dominatrix. Maybe he liked being talked down to. His second wife was a like an official dominatrix. Before the mold was set, like what you would know as a dominatrix today,

1:07:41that was her. It seems like the OG dominatrix was George Hunter White's wife. They would have crazy orgies, push in Asian persuasion as well. No, I think he was a white broad. Okay. What was it? Are you are you fantasizing right now? No, I mean, was she Asian? No, I was just thinking because you were saying about like how we infiltrated these opium dens. Oh, yeah, and they killed the Japanese man. I was just wondering if he was over there and then he sort of found this dominatrix. He'd like, you're a fat little bollum ball. Oh, I like that. Well, he was a submissive one. They would have orgies. He's into the leather. You know what I mean? Strapped it on. I don't know. I didn't then read that he was into that part of speculating. Just keep it. Keep it to the fats. Yeah. All right. It's also like a drink of bottle of gin. Bottle of gin with every meal. Fuck off. No one drinks a bottle of gin with every

1:08:47meal. Unless you're trying to white does with every meal. Hey, how big is the bottom? What they said, yeah, I'm just thinking about this and I'm thinking I know some pretty heavy drinkers. A bottle of gin, at a meal, even if you're a bollum ball of a man and even if you're an alcoholic, like, I don't know. Hey, man, you like to live life to the fullest? Okay. Okay. We'll just say that that's fact, but I'm going to say that it's not a one liter or a 750. I think that's going to be like it's going to be like a mini bar size or like what are those? What's the size? Is it 70 foot? No, not 75 cents. What's the ones that like could go in your back pocket? Like a, you know what I mean? Like a flask size. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever that is, I'll fully go with that. It's what he drank. I don't think it was drinking from the mini bar. Okay. Who knows? I'm sure the CIA would give him

1:09:48a blank check for whatever he wanted as far as the mini bar is concerned. Yes. Alay's early LSD tests were kind of done internally at the CIA. It got so bad with people fucking with people with LSD that they had a CIA party and they told them, hey, guys, don't spike the punch bowl with LSD. Please. Like we're at this as the fucking Christmas party. You guys keep dropping LSD to everybody. I mean, it was like cool in the academic circles and the government circles, even amongst these Anglo-Wospy intelligence people from Ivy League colleges. They were all trying LSD, taking home to their wives, professors were doing it. Everybody in this agency was experimenting on LSD. They were, they were having fun with it. So you have these captive audiences of prisoners, you have all these different sub projects. They wanted to be able to test this thing on men who would like potentially be in some sort of compromised spy situation.

1:10:48Like, all right, if we have a Soviet spy and we know where he's going to be, let's send a girl there and give him some LSD and then he's going to become our spy or he's going to spill beans. So they set up the midnight climax sub project and it was in a safe house initially in New York City and then in San Francisco and they got two rooms in the apartment and the one would be where these prostitutes and George Hunter White knows all the prostitutes because that's kind of one of the things that he does and being an narcotics officer is prostitutes. Is prostitutes, yes. But if you're any good narcotics officer, you know all the hookers because the hookers are going to be like your pathway and the bust and the drug dealers. So he's deep in the underworld. This is the perfect guy to do this kind of thing. He has no morals. He's a wacko. He's a pervert. So why don't we put him in charge of this operation where he has prostitutes bring up Johns and they drug them with LSD and then he sits in the opposite room on a portable toilet

1:11:53behind what they called x-ray glass, you know a mirror, two-way mirror and sits there drinking gin and watching the girls you know compromise these men with LSD. That's Operation Midnight Climax. This was fully endorsed by Sydney Gottlieb himself like he almost did this personally personal note to George Hunter White. He would go there to the safe house. He'd screw George Hunter White's wife. So Sydney Gottlieb like in some ways you see and I'm telling you that he's like this Eastern spiritual guy and he's married and he's got four kids and he's like a really good employer. Knows everybody's birthday and your wife's birthday and stuff like that and he's he's milking goats and making yogurt and he's also milking George Hunter White's wife and okay you like them boots. Oh you like them boots. I'm not I'm not Asian but I'll pretend for you Sydney Gottlieb. I like very much that he sits on a toilet while watching. I like that he had it

1:13:03from my memory anyway in the book chaos which was the reason for this conversation anyway like I read through that and I was just like two three years ago. It was yeah it was two three years ago then we had a conversation about it. Then I just reread it in preparation for this and the two things were like said I was like this is fucked up because messing with someone's mind and personality is really really creepy and the other thing that I particularly liked is just that this guy had a toilet installed so that he could sit there and not have to leave to go and take a piss while he drank. I think it was Martini's they said like oh I think he was like drinking Martini's while just sat on the toilet watching people fuck on LSD where they don't even know that they're on LSD they've been drugged. I think it's such a weird thing to do with your evening. What should we do

1:14:11tonight? I don't know should we just flip on Netflix and just relax. No I think I'm going to have a portable toilet put into an office and then I'm just going to drink Martini's on that toilet and then drug unknowing people and get hookers involved. Yeah. They wash them trip out on LSD what they fuck. I just think that's just a better evening. Would you reckon? Yeah. Yeah. Hey, hey, Frank, give me another Martini. I don't have to sit on this shit. I'm going to watch this guy. He's whoa holy shit. Who's guys? I am fucking LSD. He's fucking a broad breener. Give me too much to eat. He's a matter of fact this was going to take a while. And what like what would they learn it? Because it's not really going to the book into this and the book too much like is there anything that was truly learned from this? Like no I do. I might take fuck harder. Well like what do you

1:15:12do? I think they can benefit me. Yeah. It's what I mean by Operation Midnight Climax. Yeah. I think it's one of the things that convinced Sydney Gottlieb that this doesn't this doesn't really work in this application. Right. And I another takeaway was they were like you know what alcohol is like just as good at doing this. And another takeaway for them was guys talk after sex. So you could just have a hooker screw guys brains out and then talk to him and he'll probably tell you some stuff. I don't know. That sounds or fallacy. That's true. That's a real thing that they were like all right. Yeah. I was just saying hookers to get a guy drunk and screw his brains out and then talk to him because his wife probably doesn't talk to him. By nag's Adam. Yeah. So LSD was not useful in that application but it was useful to take away yourself. And I think that's something that

1:16:18it talks about in the book and that they found a lot of success with was to like dematerialize the group identity thing at the same time. Yeah. Take out yourself insert group identity. Yeah. And I feel like that's quite similar to some of the other like more popular drugs now like the Iowascas and things like that like people stripping away their ego like they're they're like I'm stripping away my ego. And I can imagine that that would be quite an interesting way to control someone like how creepy was that how I just said that quite an interesting way to control someone like Lavry before you said yeah like I was just really leaning into this I'm like I can do this. But yeah. That's interesting. But yeah like you if you strip away who they are it's much easier then to like overwrite and rewrite once you've done that. And so I can see

1:17:24that's why LSD was so powerful and like how how and why that maybe was the drug of choice and maybe for a reason that Manson used it and had such incredible control over the family. And whether he was being controlled by someone else or not it's hard to exactly say it seems very much like he was mixed up with a lot of the characters that we're talking about and there was a lot of things that you can point to him. You just keep it so far ahead. I'm sorry. Don't don't turn the page. Okay stop stop trying to read ahead. Okay put that. I can't help it. You know I can't read your up. You're obsessed with Manson. Well it is pretty interesting. Like a lot of people are obsessed with me man. It is pretty interesting that someone has so quickly gained so much control over so

1:18:28many people. Yeah. When these like expert types who are running these three letter agencies seem to have less success. Oh that's a good one. Yeah. All right keeping your pants we get two more guys to talk about. Before I proceed who do you think who is more George Hunter white and who is more Sydney Gottlieb in this relationship? Who is more George Hunter white? George Hunter white is the one who sits on the toilet and drinks my tea. That's you. That's me okay. Yeah. And you're Sydney Gottlieb. Yeah and I like the club. Fred is you who screws my wife. I think so. Okay. I think so and eats natural yoga. Yeah. Yeah. And it is like a total 200 pound bowling ball. I think I don't know. What do you think? Would you agree? Yeah. Yeah. I just thought it was an

1:19:29interesting question. Hey comment below on what you think who's more Sydney Gottlieb and who is more George Hunter white? Max or myself? So the bad guys the like Hollywood mad scientist type subproject 68 you and Cameron at the Allen Memorial Institute and McGill University in Montreal. This guy is the one that you see in the movies. You remember that movie the the O.A. It not movie the TV show the O.A. It was on Netflix for a while and it was kind of like artsy fartsy the first season was good but what they were doing was experimenting with like near death experience and seeing what they can do with near death experiences and everybody knows stranger things. So that's that's just imagine the scientists from those two Netflix TV shows and you pretty much have the the template was created by you and Cameron. I saw a lot of people talking about

1:20:34that stranger things was written based around a government program of some kind in a village that was very similar etc. etc. I can't remember what the name of that program was. But that would be complete at this point conspiracy theory stuff because I have nothing to back it up. Yeah I don't know it didn't it didn't come across my transom. I'll see if I can if anyone's listening and they can make that connection let me know because it was just one of those things that I saw when I was like I mean I could definitely fucking believe it but did no research so we'll just leave that there but just leave the door open if if anyone knows last night. Well you and you and Cameron at Alamemorial Institute behind the the group called Society for the investigation of human ecology. Well lovely night. That's some it does so lovely it's so lovely they they did massive

1:21:36electro shock therapies. So as you do like that you know I'm gonna reach for cigarette I really want to have a smoke and then okay I'm not gonna have a smoke I'm really gonna have a smoke and I all right I'm not gonna have a smoke anymore that's normal electro shock therapy this guy's doing 30 to 40 times that dose of electro shock putting it on your head cranking it up seeing what it does you see if he can take away yourself and and repattern you prolong drug induced sleep he would just bring you down to the point where you were an infant where you couldn't fucking speak anything he can do to torture the living shit out of you playing the psychic driving that was playing continuous messages like on a tape sometimes like 15 16 hours a day for weeks at a time whether you're in isolation or in the dark or starving or sedated he would just say these things over and over again max. Lovely. You're a fat fat cunt max you're a fat fat cunt you're a fat

1:22:40piece of shit look at you you fat piece of shit and eventually you start to believe it even though you're so fit and spry and good looking. Oh yeah so people knew that that this was happening this is not the Canadian government was sued and they paid out to victims of this guy so once keeping with the show this is all factual stuff that happened to real people and there have been many many movies written about this kind of person this this is your this is your arch villain kind of guy you and Cameron some of these people never were never right ever again as you can imagine you know they're not like lobotomy vegetables it's another thing that they they dismissed pretty quickly and all this stuff I said lobotomy they don't work that's we're not going to do that no for their purposes no but they're pretty neat going through the go into the eyeball and cut it up

1:23:44see what happens you might piss yourself you might just be really boring all right my favorite mad scientist guy who actually goes into the next chapter so you'll be excited subproject 43 jolly and west jolly and west interesting guy like a air force carnal I I think he was a military man like a clean cut military guy um he first comes on to the scene here and Max you can go ahead and take it from here in 1954 an airman named Jimmy Shaver is accused of raping and murdering a three-year-old girl named Sherry John Horton I'd like lackling air force base I think you know the story pretty well yeah well it was one of the things that jumped out of me is particularly weird and unsettling um the story goes the there was a a military man with a wife and kids with no prior convictions no records no

1:24:54um no evidence to suggest that there was anything untoward with his behavior no one could come up and say anything negative about him or the of this we could have seen this coming like at all and there was a parents who had gone into a cafe left their young daughter they were at a roadside bar oh the roadside bar and they left the daughter in the in the car and then the it got out the car and there's her underwear like hanging off the window of the car and then they can't find her and police arrive this guy a commenter's name now um comes out from this Jimmy Jimmy Shaver Jimmy Shaver comes out from a gravel pit days covered in blood seams not drunk and hadn't been drinking but like on something completely different to how we

1:26:01would have been they jumped at me too and you know they're like you've been drinking you deserve that no no no and um had no memory of anything like couldn't remember anything at all and then they found the girls body I think she'd been raped and killed um and then his story was I can't remember anything I don't know what's happened I don't know why I'm here um I have no memory of the girl you know basically just nothing and then he gets a visit from what's his name uh jolly in his cell and after being left in there for however long that sort of not interview but like interrogation is we don't know if he was slipped anything and we don't know the full story

1:27:03but he came out saying yes I did it and here's what I did and here's why I did it um and I did it because my cousin or someone like yeah sister or cousin or something like that with it someone in his family had abused him when he was a child or raped when he was a child but that was never looked into there was no rest made there was no evidence to support those claims and this was just very quickly after jolly west had gone in with no one else there and and pushing certain ideas like I think there's a transcript and it was just like do you remember uh strangling the girl while she was wearing very suggestive cop interrogation techniques they use now yeah so it's not tell me what you remember it's inserting memories and so you have a guy with no reason to attack no previous but not not saying that it doesn't happen

1:28:10but sure sure when you look into jolly west and what he was doing and how he was doing it and then you line it up with the fact that he then goes and pays a visit to this person who in that interview after seeing him after saying I have no idea what happened I didn't do anything I like he seemed like he was on some sort of drug to then completely change and go along with a certain story and then immediately after that when he goes to prison and he's already put into prison he says for for the rest of his sentence I didn't do it like he he he again has no memory of whatever was to till till the day he he was executed yeah until the day was executed he he said I didn't so it it may be filled uncomfortable that one like say given what jolly west was involved in to let man man into that cell and basically take someone's life

1:29:18from them you can't prove that this guy wasn't thinking straight you can't prove that this guy wouldn't have done it and that he you know that he wasn't drugged during the accident that he wasn't drugs off to the incident I can't prove any of that but it just it stinks the whole story you think about the timing of it too so mk ultra started in 53 this is 1954 so I I feel like he's kind of like an early guy like yeah don't worry about it Sid we're gonna we're gonna get out there and we're gonna experiment we're gonna do stuff you know he had his own ideas too they had toyed with hypnosis for quite some time in in the CIA leaving toyed with like a magician at one time they had a magician come and and teach the CIA different techniques and it was always very inconclusive as to whether you can get somebody with hypnosis the the the the like the zeitgeist in society was sure you can because the mentoring candidate book and movie had come out and

1:30:23you know show a playing card and you can get somebody to assassinate the president so a lot of people thought that hypnosis was a thing a lot of the CIA did not Jolly and West did but he thought if I use hypnosis and I use sodium penthal and I use suggestion and I use LSD that I can get what I want out of these people and in that case just makes me think that yeah he he was in there dope in him up with sodium penthal and and trying hypnosis techniques and getting him to say suggesting what he wants them to say I mean that's that's what he what his goal was to extract information on unwilling subjects it's the most important thing to to remember here like with hypnosis if you if you believe you can be hypnotized well of course you're you're gonna be more suggestive you want it to work this could be fun but on willing subjects and give them an amnesia essentially in the interrogation implant false memories and then they don't know what's

1:31:25what their real memory and what the false memories are and maybe that's where the suggestion comes into play but he was he was in the pocket of uh Sydney Gottlieb they knew each other this wasn't like these weren't sub projects that went off the rails per se Sydney Gottlieb like wrote the checks hmm for for these things he knew who these people were so for this this that particular incident incident to happen one year after the creation of MK ultra like I just it's a bit of a conjecture but I think they knew now they also let's play devil navigator they give me good guy like hey sometimes uh convicting somebody that doesn't remember a crime is hard to do and this guy definitely did it so at least let's make sure that we we get him maybe I don't just throwing it out there yeah he's also uh jolly in west is also known for in 1962 he killed an elephant named Tusco with LSD yeah this was a first the shit out of them yeah it was like 300 times or a thousand times

1:32:30the suggested dose yeah for an elephant and then he did the math he left it off like apparently people would ask about it and and talk about it and he'd be like oh yeah and just like as if it's a joke it's like you're talking about poor that poor elephant just got oh yeah oh yeah absolutely shout out Tusco sorry man sorry the people that done that to you sure you're not famous uh jolly in west things is he interviewed Jack Ruby who was the killer of uh the man who assassinated Lee Harvey Oswald those who don't know Lee Harvey Oswald is the man who assassinated Jeff Kay and um Jack Ruby after his interaction with with jolly in west is says like all of these crazy things as to why he did it that don't really make any fucking sense you know it's potential Jack Ruby's tidying with the mafia and I'm not going to go into JFK conspiracy theory

1:33:32but people say well you know uh Lee Harvey Oswald was MK altered into killing Kennedy and and there was this whole conspiracy theory to kill Kennedy and then of course he need Ruby to kill Oswald so he doesn't talk and then they potentially send in jolly and west into talk to Jack Ruby and then start all of these things like oh uh this is going to start a race war and uh everybody's going to blame it on the Jews uh and I don't I don't want there's going to be blood in the streets thousands of Jews killed if if I let Lee Harvey Oswald win and and just all all of these different things were inserted that don't make any sense whatsoever as to motive as to why Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald but it certainly gets them off of the case if for some kind of uh larger conspiracy as to why JFK was assassinated to the he's famous he's famous at this point jolly in west and he he doesn't go away we'll bring him on later in the story

1:34:42there was a little alley in San Francisco back of the southern Pacific station at third in Townsend in Red Brick of drowsy lazy afternoons with everybody at work and offices in the area you feel the impending rush of their commuter frenzy as soon they'll be charging on mass for market and sandsome buildings on foot and in buses and all well dressed through working man frisco of walkup truck drivers and even the poor grime be marked third street of lost bombs even negroes so hopeless and long left east and meanings of responsibility and try then now all they do is stand there in a broken glass sometimes 50 in one afternoon against one wall at third in hollage segment three cultural spread cults and domestic ops from the CIA safe houses of operation midnight climax in San Francisco to the streets of hate as peri is only a few miles and a few years in the San Francisco safe houses the fat blob bowling ball of a man George hunter white in his team

1:35:45use prostitutes to lure men dosed them with lsd and watched through two way mirrors while sitting on portable toilets short time later in the same city a different group of young women were also luring men with sex and drugs only this time the operation wasn't run by the federal bureau of narcotics it was run by Charles Manson Manson moved through hate as peri at the exact moment the neighborhood became the epicenter of the new culture he obtained medical treatments for himself and members of the family at the free clinics he recruited he watched right in the middle of that neighborhood sat two overlapping operations dr. david smith opened the hate as peri free medical clinic in june 1967 to treat the flood of damaged kids pouring into the hate at the time Lewis jolly and west the mk ultra linked psychiatrist who had already predicted the rise of violent lsd cults set up a laboratory disguised as a hippie crash pad on Frederick street

1:36:51west's graduate students stressed as hippies and lured itinerant kids into the apartment so the behavior could be observed the free clinic became both a medical refuge and a convenient recruitment pool Manson and his early followers were regulars at the free clinic jolly west was running his observational crash pad just blocks away at the same time and drawing subjects from the same pools san francisco was the biological testing ground for operation c spray hosted official lsd experiments and was now hosting the largest uncontrolled social and pharmacological experiment in american history the cat leaves the bag and so do the rats lsd did not stay in the laboratories sandows and then elidely produced it the cia in the army tested it but once it reached psychiatrist writers and musicians the containment failed it moved into high society then into the beats and the jazz scene then into ken kizzi and the merry pranksters who turned it into a mobile public

1:37:53performance by the mid-1960s the hippie movement had taken the drug and the idea of deliberate ego dissolution and scaled them into communes free love and a full rejection of straight society godly even the men around him were not the only ones drawn to eastern mysticism occult ideas in the deliberate breaking of the personality the same currents theosophy through halein blavatsky allister crowley various yogic magical traditions were flowing through the artistic and spiritual underground when those ideas met cheap plentiful lsd in a generation that already felt the old order was bankrupt the result was an explosion of gurus cults in the experimental living arrangements the environment bread charles mansan and the manson family charles mansan did not invent the group mind control techniques by any means by any stretch of the imagination he perfected a particularly vicious street version of them replaced the biological family with the new family give members new names alternate intense love with sudden withdrawal and punishment create a shared external enemy

1:38:58use sex drugs and exhaustion to break down resistance keep people isolated from outside information the girls once drew men in with promise of an orgy were running a recruitment and controlled operation that looked in structure if not in sponsorship uncomfortably familiar the taith l'Abianka murders with a moment the experiment turned into national trauma when the girls later said it just felt right they were describing the end state of the process ordinary moral judgment had been replaced by the group's reality as you may have heard for the show max and i both read tomoniel's chaos in chaos mr. o'neal spends 20 years documenting the strange overlaps mansans improbable parole history the proximity to intelligence linked figures the hate as per free medical clinic the intersections with co-entel pro and operation chaos some of his stronger claims remain speculative what is not speculative is that in the same city the same drug and the same decade produced both the cia's controlled experiments and the

1:40:02uncontrolled social explosion that followed the techniques of influence and personality breakdown were no longer secrets locked inside government programs they were loose in the culture co-entel pro and operation chaos show the other side of the same coin state moving from foreign mind control research to domestic surveillance and disruption of political and cultural movements the beach boys Terry milcher spawn ranch connections illustrate how porous the boundary between the glamorous surface of california culture and the darker experimental underground had become by the late nineteen sixties the cat was fully fully out of the back the drugs the social experiments the cult techniques and the deliberate dissolving of the ordinary self were no longer locked inside intelligence safe houses or psychiatric wards they had spilled into the open the strategy itself had shifted the old goal had been to break the individual mind and rebuild it the new goal was quieter and more ambitious shaped the environment so thoroughly that most people would never need to

1:41:04be broken they would simply adapt in the densest corners of the counter culture the results looked uncannily like john calhoun's mouse utopias given abundance freedom from old constraints and extreme social density normal patterns of care pair bonding and self control begin to collapse aggression rose maternal and social instincts frayed some withdrew completely others formed tight higher archer and ultimately destructive groups what began with beats kizzi eastern mysticism and the hippie experiment reached its most brutal public expression in the mason family murders a few years later the church committee drag the hidden government programs into the light by the mid nineteen seventies the consequences were no longer theoretical they were in full view that track of LSD being in the CIA and at these cocktail parties amongst these elite but then getting released into the hospitals and you have kinkizzi in the marry pranksters i don't know if you

1:42:09i don't know how much you know about the nineteen sixties but just imagine this kind of grew like party guy and in the scene wrote one flow over the cookus nest volunteered at you know research hospital to get more LSD it kind of gets released into the wild amongst all these musicians and beat poets the intro to this i played jack caroac jack caroac is a famous beat poet is my favorite beat poet but that one was about san francisco in particular so i thought it that was appropriate to play something strange about san francisco there's something strange about san francisco yeah we didn't get to talk about it but the operation c spray they released a biological agent on san francisco that was supposed to be harmless but then somebody died of a what about your bladder infection or uti or something like that so somebody did die from operation c spray okay but then you know operation midnight climax and you got George hunter white

1:43:12there and it's a weird place right keep san francisco weird yeah the weird the weird crept up the west coast of portland in Seattle just got weirder than more north you go so hey dashberry that's where this lsd eastern mysticism fueled culture this is like the apex of it hey dashberry the intersection of these two streets interestingly enough you've you've got a number of characters there here we have jolly and west popping up again sets himself up a little a little place to maybe test and experiment on the stupid hippie kids you've got dav smith who opens up his his free medical clinic and you know i don't know what this guy's intentions were with the free medical clinic but it just so happens that he was involved in experiments himself with drugs like he knew drugs very well it wasn't like dav smith was a um

1:44:13uh what do they call him it's quite liced yeah yeah like a primary care physician that he has a reach research science science background in pharmaceuticals so how is it that he became like everybody's primary care doctor in a heat as peri does that make sense to you man this adnup man yeah that part did again stand out to me in the sense that you had a perfect place to meet and find the types of people that you could maybe we say would be suggestible or that you could test things on because they're already using or less likely to have a close family structure oh yeah there would be the types of people that you could manipulate easier so you have you have three people that are kind of linked in

1:45:15in in the same way here you have dav smith dav smith who's got the hate as peri free medical clinic but he is also like a clinical researcher at the same time who is testing on rats mice for some reason he can't recall in different interviews he says the rats and other interviews he says are mice but he was kind of building on we had talked about this in another show Calhoun's mouse utopia experiments where you give these mice everything they could possibly need you put them in a densely populated environment they want for nothing but eventually they will go completely feral you'll have roving bands of aggressive males just eating other mice killing babies yeah yeah which stands out again of the book because you have what happens with the mason family is very similar to those studies and then you have somebody

1:46:16who's studying mice and or rats interchangeably in a similar way using drugs and then you have the mason family actually visiting and spending a lot of time in that facility with the person who's studying rats and mice and these drugs and what can happen and then you have what happens in the studies happen to people maybe that's why it's again can't prove this maybe why he doesn't remember so clearly is it rats is it mice which are different species like it should rat it says it mice as the humans it should matter the only reason it wouldn't matter is if the rats or mice don't matter at all because it is humans because that's more interesting study the behavior of these mice and rats and the behavior of this family are scary similar there's a way you could tell the story where Dave Smith of the the Hadesbury Freeklinic

1:47:20sort of looks like a good guy he's still around he's a hippie type he's still in San Francisco you know he's a he's a big free health care you know guy and that's what we did that's what we did back on the day man we just took care of people you know it didn't matter if they had a drug problem we we took care of him we cared about people so he he comes off as a good guy but also and he says he didn't know this but Jolly and West is is poaching his subjects from him you know just a few blocks away here comes Jolly and West popping up again in San Francisco just ran simply it's like he just Jolly West just happens to be just down the road and the m屋sons just happen to come to this clinic and yeah Jolly West just happens to be in rooms interrogating people who happened to be involved in murders but it is just random that's the thing that you need to remember let's talk about self-fulfilling prophecy again you know Jolly and West publicly predicted

1:48:27LSD cults did he publicly predict them because he was helping to create them no I don't know that is conjecture but we have all these facts for you to to think about and and imagine and I don't know it's it's certainly makes for a good podcast doesn't it I hope that I relatively level headed with things and when I read through that book just got feeling for me was like mmm this fucking doesn't quite add up or actually the reverse of that this does add up to something quite weird yeah like we said in the last episode the author loses like half his life to writing this book it starts out as a

1:49:29time on eal yeah time it starts it starts out as like oh this is going to be an article in a magazine it turns into 10 years then it turns into 20 years and like you never fully he completely loses himself to this story because as he digs deeper he finds more witness and there's actually a point in there as well where he spends some time with his family and I think his his father is an accountant or a I think he was an accountant who are a lawyer I think he was an accountant I think he was a cat and and he speaks with daddy says like this is I'm laying it out this is what I think and these are all these connections and yeah he's like let's go over the paperwork together I hope you're gonna have it yeah it's a cool that's a cool thing to do it's cool dad yeah it's a cool dad and I don't think he's enabling his son by doing this it's just that when you put all of this together you can't prove everything and that's why we're being careful not to say like

1:50:32oh this definitely is this and this definitely is that other than what's on record and the things we've discussed there these organizations definitely were a thing they definitely was a goal to control the mind using drugs sure the stated goal these were approval things but what you can't prove is that Manson was controlled by no government to do certain things to find out if they could control people to the point where they would commit murder we can't prove that there was a link between Manson and these organizations and an assassination of the president we can't prove all these things but when you look at it you go it seems unlikely that these things aren't connected I can't prove it yeah but it no matter how logical you try and be you look at it or at least I did and I'm like fuck this is it could be random but fuck it now it doesn't seem like it let me just go

1:51:36over the the coincidences here okay here's something that is is believable that Jolly and West goes to interviews Jimmy Shavers and implants suggestion into him through hypnosis and drugs all right I I I can buy that sure he kills an elephant with LSD well he said he did that so that's okay he interviews that's okay he interviews Jack Ruby and then Jack Ruby seems to have this cockamami reason as the why he killed Lee Harvey Oswald all right well that's yeah he's now he's getting a bigger conspiracy stuff he just so happens to predict you know a violent LSD cult before he sets up an operation in hate ashberry at the exact same time that Charles Manson is released from prison and the culmination of the 1967 summer of love and set up from this free clinic that is not far away from this guy Dave Smith who is doing sort of mouse utopia type experiments except he may

1:52:38be given them andphetamines to see if he can't ramp him up to be even more violent and fucked up and eat their babies and eat each other and stuff and then Charles Manson leaves hate ashberry after that possibly you know this is a conspiracy theory that is probably learning all of these mind control techniques that the MK ultra program has produced and that Jolly and West has actually participated in and had actionable results maybe learn some lessons how can I mix this and that and this Eastern spiritualism and I'm a guru now and I can take people's identity away I can take the family away I can give them new names now he just so happens to have all these really good techniques for creating this predicted LSD cult and then okay I learned what I needed to know at the proving grounds at the summer of love man and I'm gonna head down to LA County the next year and a year after that my group is going to commit these murders yeah there might be no connection at all

1:53:42none none in the least the other thing is whether it is all connected which it probably is or it isn't we can't prove but what we can prove is that all of these things happened in parallel the point of these episodes is to say what we can prove and also then to try and insulate ourselves or protect ourselves and the people that we love from influenced in ways that are not best for us there are ways to protect yourself from it john and max's top 10 tips pal to not let your daughter be part of a drug sex murdering cult number one don't abuse her as a child number two make sure she doesn't run away number three if she does run away go and get her the end this has been john and max's top three

1:54:43waste your child joining a drug riddled murderous sex cult that's great join us next time by the way back to who man's and is he's like a two-bit pervert weirdo criminal guy who just happens to get released at that time the summer of love in San Francisco he is a two-bit criminal who's been done for rape of a young boy um car theft prosecution charges yeah all sorts of like how the fucking pimp man how's one the original pimps random crimes that don't link into this level of control in any way shape or form and as far as everyone is concerned he is basically a liturant he has no formal training in any type of background pharmaceuticals or

1:55:46even like control personality control or sales or anything where you would learn how to influence people outside of just what he's learned as a pimp and suddenly in a very very short space of time very short two years max two fucking years he gets released I actually have the semino teacates released March of 1967 19 August 1969 so a year and like what five months the take lalbjanka murders happen in August yeah and in that short time he amasses a proper cult following of people who literally will kill for him he also manages to control in somewhere another police officers his parole officer or a law officer who actually ends up taking in his child and looking after his child or one of his children constantly lies and gets him released goes to the free clinic to meet with him is he's enamored by his girls drops every other client you know

1:56:52mostly these guys have like between 60 100 clients he you don't call it clients but what do you know what have you actually call it a roly parolee's he drops all the way down to one puts in a good word for him and any of the girls who get arrested gets them released constantly uh mixing it makes excuse for him to man to digota florida his control over people and ability to get arrested and just walk out scot free you just be left alone even when police come onto the ranch and they're told oh I have people with guns trained on you and we'll kill you even walking around with sub-bushing guns and having a full arsenal is control the police are like cool just release them just let him go it's not a problem just let him go when the murders happen even when there's a lot of similarities between a couple of the murders it's completely overlooked there's just that there's so many things

1:57:55where back to like the probability thing you go yeah I could probably happen one thing yeah those two things happening yeah maybe these ten things happening pretty fucking unlikely you just start to think of the odds and you're like that has better entropy than a cold card you that uh that is extremely unlikely that's a big number yeah that's true as far as you can take it is it's really fucking unlikely for none of this to be linked and it's really fucking unlikely for somebody who's illiterate with no training and any of the things that you'd need to get as good as he became as quickly as he did not having any influence external influence or any help having the ability to just have limited amount of LSD yeah access to to girls and even when they go missing and police find them

1:58:57they don't bring them back to their parents there's just like a yeah there's an improbability in the likelihood that there's that level of incompetence over and over and over and over and over again I just I believe in a two-year span Charles Manson's rise to fame man get released from prison go to summer love get myself some girls pimping out deal some drugs talk to them one of the most famous psychological scientists that man has ever known jolly in west maybe I don't know go to hate asprere free clinic and I leave that place man and then guess what I'm hanging out with Terry Melcher and I'm hanging out with beach boys and I'm dealing them drugs and I'm getting them girls and we call ourselves the golden penetrators then I get myself a spawn ranch out in Hollywood on the old west set and I got all my girls and we got guns and we got the police are ignoring us and then all of a sudden you kill some famous people in a two-year span all of this stuff happens

2:00:02it's amazing for the conspiracy theory side of things but it is also amazing the effectiveness of his mind control techniques and they're simple and the stuff we've already gone over in the episode replace the family so you have the new family you have a new priest you have a new guru everybody gets new names I like that because the names are kind of funny what would your name be Charles Manson were to give you a name max what would it be golden unicorn yeah man that's right you're my golden unicorn with your giant unicorn horn that's right golden unicorn I got some girls over there for you man I think I'm just for you get them with your golden unicorn horn look everybody coming right the golden unicorn would take me to the moon man sex tried and true tested verified don't thrust verify

2:01:03greatest mind control technique right there yeah oh wait for forgot you know we forgot to mention it we mentioned the beginning but of course all this is culminating with the midnight climax is happening in San Francisco too why move to San Francisco George Hunter White with the prostitutes better probably two and a half miles the operation midnight climax operation in San Francisco from hate asperi it's not like it's even all the way across town so there you have it that's the late 60s then by the early 70s mid 70s the church commission comes out and all the mk ultra stuff and sub projects are revealed in some way Sydney got leave gets gets brought up and has to testify and in a closed and a closed situation so we don't get to hear hear him speak and answer these questions but but he does take questions now a lot of the files were destroyed in the early 70s at got leaves and and Helm so who was maybe the director of the CIA at the time or at least at least ran this division of the CIA so the only thing they had by that time were uh financial

2:02:09documents and like notes written by godly who who kept obsessive notes about where all this money went so at least we knew that like oh uh you and Cameron he gets 69 thousand dollars or this the you know George under white leather boots 35 dollars bottle of gin portable toilet you know so that's that's all there but we don't have the good stuff and that's quite unfortunate because you know you'll be kind of interesting to see wouldn't it it would be very interesting to say so that's it the 70s are over I think uh you know america's looking to move on to something else something new look into the new future

2:03:18so section four modern continuity's from the 1980s to the present the 1980s brought prosperity back to america under Reagan the cultural message to their young shifted hard just say no psychedelic rock gave way to partying metal and hair bands punk burned out new wave and yacht rock took over the airwaves the remaining hippies traded in their vw buses for volvos and BMW's disco already fading was publicly executed at disco demolition night at kimiski park in Chicago generation x born in the 70s and the early 80s grew up in a relative era of renewed innocence the same boomers who would spent the previous decade dissolving their egos on acid and building communes put on suits and became the Miami vice wolf of Wall Street yuppies cocaine replaced lsd as the signature drug

2:04:21the communes and most of the cults dissolved the overt government run mind control experiments at the mk ultra era receded from view influence operations did not disappear they migrated increasingly they were run by corporations pharmaceutical companies advertising agencies and media rather than by intelligence agencies and safe houses for millennials gen z gen alpha gen beta our children the latter two the tools became quieter and more pervasive the widespread adoption of hormonal birth control altered the reproductive and social patterns of an entire generation ssri's and later adhd medications placed millions of people including large numbers of children on daily psychiatric drugs that change mood attention and emotional range these were not secret cia programs they were prescribed openly marketed heavily and normalized the effect however still belongs to the same long conversation chemical influence over internal states at population scale the 1990s

2:05:26calm boom look for a moment like the high watermark of western prosperity and cultural confidence then came the shocks that reopened the older toolkit on a far larger scale 9-11 normalize mass surveillance in the security state daily life social media platforms turned influence into an algorithmic real-time personalized system that dwarfed anything the cia programs could have imagined neural implants and brain computer interfaces once the stuff of speculative mk ultra-side projects move from science fiction into active development and hurly human trials and covid became in speed scale and psychological reach the most comprehensive influence operation in modern history fear social pressure institutional authority media saturation and the rapid rewriting of everyday norms all at once the ancient pattern never left it only changed hands refined its methods and upgraded its tools max you weren't fortunate enough to be a child of the 80s as myself but uh

2:06:30the 70s calm down pretty well and uh the 80s were really an era of prosperity and peace and and all the way into the 90s and the dot com boom it was it was pretty cool even looking back you don't feel like there was some kind of mass influence campaign or conspiracy of mad scientists controlling our minds it did seem pretty cool what came after that was much less cool mm-hmm I think you say in personalities you can sort of tell when did you grow up? mm-hmm when we use like a young adult and a and a teen in what sort of era and I think the people that I grew up with are probably more comfortable believing in the sorts of things we're covering and have less trust in governments and organizations than the generation before because

2:07:36at least speaking for myself like going through the think like 9-11 and COVID just like the financial crisis and just like everything and it also like hits different people differently I remember like I literally bought my first home 10 days it completed before the financial crisis to go to an 8 and like I'd like really fucking worked hard to get that place and I was young when I got it and I remember saying to my boss at the time like is this bad like it and he was like oh I didn't know like I was literally I was a kid and I was like is it bad and he's like oh yeah man you'll fight those literally he's like oh yeah man you're fucked and I was like oh really he's like oh yes gonna be quite bad man and so like that and experiencing 9-11 I remember that happening and

2:08:38being in the playground and then like being called into like watch the TV and seeing it lying and I remember having the conversations afterwards and very much I was like we've got to fight back we've got to fucking show them this is disgusting like I remember like at the feeling of anger budding your ass let's see American we fully on board with let's go fuck some people up yeah zero understanding of what had happened like now to go into any conspiracy theory stuff on this one it's unnecessary but the point is like although I can't go on I think I think it's worth like touching on in another episode but the point the point is like when you see that and how if you can look at how you acted and what you thought very strongly and then after learning some more things go was I thinking for myself there was that reasonable like yeah the same with the financial

2:09:46crisis and like like could this have been avoided oh yeah probably and like you you see how it impacts your life and the things after it going through an airport it's now a fucking nightmare and a lot of your rights are starting to be stripped away and then you have COVID after that and you know COVID came at a time where I'd already started getting involved with the Frieden-Tech movement and was already even though it was like early on already like looking at things in a skeptical way and then that comes and it was so clear to me from day one what was going on and like I actually people can check the tapes and go back I genuinely don't think I've made a single bad call about it I've got podcasts talking about what I think's going on and who's doing what and when this is gonna go and why and like call me out if I'm been wrong but the recordings are

2:10:49there track record of success and that's not from being smart it's just I can just see fucking now this is pretty obvious as the pattern here watching it play out and living through it and trying to do good for the people around you and protect the people around you who you love for something that to you is very clear and then being told go and put a face diaper on you have to wear it to your seat when you're in the restaurant but it's okay you can take it off to eat and being told these logical inconsistacies that are so painfully obvious put a fucking piece of cloth over your face that's gonna do it you don't need a proper mask like that's that'll do and and when you're looking at it through that lens of like this is obviously retarded like

2:11:50nothing here is there's no logic there's no sense outside of control and you have to live through it and you see people you respected fall for it people you care about be harmed by it and your freedoms be taken away after all the other shit that you go through it does change your feelings towards authority and it does change the way that you view things like I view most things as like it's probably a threat unless I can verify that it's not which is not a great way to live but it's a decent stance it's a decent stance in terms of like it protects you from operational readiness yeah but it's not actually a very nice way to live like I would much rather have the 80s vibe of like yeah that's fuck around on our bikes that's listen to some rock and roll let's party let's like let's have some fun I feel bad for you I feel really I feel really bad for my kids

2:12:54yeah oh fuck yeah like they said they both sort of damnically is hanging over their head all of the time and everything is recorded and everything is online and every like I I avoided that for my early childhood like I had a game boy in my early childhood and like a the grey box Nintendo thing with like done hunt on it but it wasn't like there wasn't social media there wasn't gaming I didn't have photos I was the first kid to have a phone but it wasn't like a phone that you know you can use for everything else it was like a fucking like you can dial a number and you can set a call on I had a pager that's very different so at least I had that and it was like you meet up with your friends what are you gonna do like you're playing on your bike and you're you're fucking around like that it's so I'm really really grateful and I feel blessed that I lived that and I think I was

2:13:58probably one of the last kids my little generations probably like the last ones that just missed the like greens all the time I'd say so I think the things were happening in the 80s in 90s they were happening the campaigns were happening SSRIs what late 80s for that I started hearing about that kind of stuff in maybe like the early 90s we didn't know anybody that was on an SRI or on a ADHD medication we never heard of ADHD at the time you you were hyper our kids hyper I think the thing that would put them on at that time was ridlin yeah but then now all of sudden these these SSRIs come out and you have the school shootings and here comes the group trauma thing the nationwide trauma as a mechanism for for mind control you have school shootings oh well therefore we need to limit your second amendment rights and every school shooting that happens after that boom it's it's group trauma and we have to limit your second amendment rights and so is that a

2:15:03conspiracy where they're hopping kids up on SSRIs and in school shootings increase I don't know it it kind of doesn't matter but something is happening at that time where kids are getting doped up on drugs doped up on drugs boom now all the screens come out in the 2000s everybody's dialing up on aOL your dealing porn yeah that's school on floppy disks pornography is more graphic and available to children than ever so here's another culmination of things boom you've got all these kids on ADHD and and SSRIs similar time legalization of marijuana push which I am certainly not a proponent of that was lights it I understand that but I'm just it the the the talk of that kind of stuff was like around this time yeah pushing it you know I remember a woody heralds and you know all the time talking about legalization of marijuana and now the screens and now you have availability to pornography to violence you have these international trauma campaigns 9-11

2:16:12whether it's a whatever the conspiracy theory is around it which I we can talk about some mark times you want to whatever it is it was certainly used at the culmination of all of these other things happening and now we're willing to wait in lines and take our shoes off and have our face scanned and have all of our phone calls recorded it's just a point that we joke about oh I'm like this a iPhone in my pocket and it's recording everything we say haha isn't isn't that right you talked to your Alexa or whatever and and you admit that it's it's it's uh it's watching you it was just the these these traumatic events in human history a very pusher in was very quickly yeah like prime and you up in the 80s and 90s with drugs 1984 chat of like oh wouldn't that be fucked up if you had the government listening to what you said to would little to literally every device being connected and proof I mean again like this is not something like snowed and leaks

2:17:17and things like that it's not like oh yeah they might be it's like no they fucking did they do and they do and like yes no question that your privacy doesn't matter to them or actually it does matter so much to them that they are actively trying to take it for me I can see you in an argument they did they do and yes yeah it's and it's fucking disgusting it's hard always to point to one thing where you see change in behavior from generation to generation and why I seem so much cooler than you seem to do everybody what but you can't you can't like say oh it's because of SSR eyes or because of this other drug or because of 9-11 or because of porn or because of access to more information or it all comes at the same time much like one of the the future episodes that

2:18:22we're going to do is on vaccines and you know pro vaccination people will always say oh well you can see there's this elimination of these diseases at the same time as these vaccines come out it's like yeah but that wasn't actually the only fucking thing that was changed and I can see the increase in this yeah same timeline yeah so you but it it muddies the waters because nothing's in a vacuum yeah and that's often the issue but what you can see clearly is a change in group think that is a little bit of everything the things that you've pointed out they're like SSR eyes these other drugs for ADHD kids if you're surrounded by people like we are in the like freedom circles how much how much does your personality or your thought pattern change probably quite a lot don't really know but you can see generation to generation that there is a difference at least the

2:19:27way I see it a lot of the things that have been introduced a lot of the big things where the fear is pushed a lot of the type of substances that are pushed tend to make people a bit more docile weaker softer food weed porn pulling people away from family family values pulling people away from God all of these trends that make love less significant in people's minds long-term relationships like this hook-up culture all of that stuff to my mind anyway if I'm going to look at it as someone who wants to attack family values and take away strong men and take away their weapons and take away the ability for them to fight me if I'm to do something that might not be best for them it certainly fucking seems that way like it and that could just be because it's like you see the things that you're looking for but the generation now as a general rule that I don't

2:20:31put everyone in this but compared to my grandparents are soft as shit yeah this is my generation so I'm not slamming someone else and being like oh we're great my generation is softer shit and the boomer generation before are fucking died don't even get me started it's a change from generation to generation and this is like a whole you can control a hundred dials by a point or two and create an outcome and you can never just point at one thing and that's what makes unraveling anything yeah close to impossible well we're not here to unravel it we're here to just present the information and give you our opinion on it and hopefully be entertaining at the same time is it quite serious is probably the most serious show we've ever done well no we've had some fun we've talked about you know sitting on a toilet oh what's that dope up john's doing hooks it does something it does well let's let's bring the fun back with our next section how you can

2:21:36resist yes and stay ungovernable oh the once zympa morning another right That's the Manson family. That's the Lerix. Yeah, you like that? Plus, that's the Lerix, so we're pretty relevant.

2:22:39And the name. I've put a lot of thought into this man. You always do. We've spent this whole conversation looking at the long arc of influence and control. From the ancient priest classes and their rituals through the intelligence programs of the Cold War, the cultural explosion to the 1960s and into the algorithmic and the institutional systems of our own time. The methods change, the architecture remains recognizable. So how do you, as an ungovernable, resisted? Learn to see the dialectics. One of the most effective modern control patterns is to trap people inside two opposing talking points. The CNN boomer water cooler version versus the Fox News neocon version. And then slowly moving the entire frame. That is the Overton window operated through managed opposition, as long as you are fighting inside the approved pair of options, you are still inside the window.

2:23:40At the moment you notice the frame itself and refuse to be limited by it, you become harder to steer. Second, apply the simplest filter we have. What is more probable? Occam's razor does not solve every mystery, but it is a powerful check against the most elaborate stories, whether those stories come from official sources or from the fringes. Ask which explanation requires the fewest new assumptions while still accounting for the evidence. Third, remember the Jefferson standard. Thomas Jefferson wrote to Peter Carr in 1787, question with boldness, even the existence of a God. Because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. If that is the standard for the highest questions, it is certainly the standard for every earthly authority and every official narrative. What do you think, Max, to those things make sense in order to remain an ungovernable, possess dialectics?

2:24:40Remember Occam's razor and question everything? Yeah, the biggest one for me is not getting pulled into arguing and infighting. That is something that I know I've been guilty of in the past. Oh, yeah. And I really think that conserving energy is so important because the amount of energy that it takes to fight physically, but to argue thinking, oh, could have said that, could have said that. It's not all that I've done so many times. And I want to change that. They can't think that. It's ridiculous. Why do they think of fucking piece of cloth going over their face makes any difference to this thing? And actually, Larry goes again. Yeah. It only hurts you. It only sucks the energy from you. It gets you so fixed on something that's so obviously illogical. You can't focus on other things that probably matter more.

2:25:44It makes you sick mentally and physically. It makes you weak mentally and physically because you're not sleeping over that angry. I'm going to say this one or a friend or every like. Yeah, you wake up and I'm like, I know what I should have said. Yeah. You're looking through the streets and you're letting it get you and you've got all this anger and instead of letting it go and treating the people around you with love and saying you're bit and that's it. You don't do any more. Don't focus on the things that you can't change. Yeah. And just focus on the things that you can actually change. You can eat well. You can go to the gym. You can speak kindly to your children and your partner and your mum and your dad. And you can have influence in people's lives even if it's not the influence you specifically want about a fucking piece of cloth over their face or a jab in their arm. Like you can still be there for people and make their lives better.

2:26:47And if that's really what you want, focus on the things that you can't change. And it's so fucking hard in the moment to do it when you're angry. Yeah. Yeah. So actually back to like what I said, oh, what do you do with the daughter when she's having to spend time back at the cave with a load of mongs, learn to control your anger and frustration and your mouth learn to just actually shut up. And when people are saying things that you know are wrong and a fucking retarded just breath. Yeah. Breathe. Think about something else. Pray. Whatever. It doesn't matter what you do, but don't get sucked in. I think that's the biggest thing an ungovernable can do. Control your emotions. You get to practice it. It's hard. You gotta get that muscle memory down. It's fucking hard. It's harder than a muscle up or any sort of thing you can do in the gym. It is fucking difficult.

2:27:50And being physically fit does actually help with it as well. Like it's easy to not only get angry, it's easy to get depressed. I know like I've suffered from it times where I've been caught up with all this stuff and you get all depressed and then it's hard to actually have the energy to go to the gym and oh, why should I even bother eating well and you know, and you spiral. It's going to have that drink. Yeah, exactly. The biggest fix, you know, has happened multiple times in my life and different parts of life. And every single time the thing that has helped me the most is eating well, training hard, train so fucking hard, go through the pain to the point where you are exhausted and you get your wholeity sleep. And then you start to get, if you're a person who's here at least for me, like you start to get a dicks hit to that thing. And it's like, oh yeah. Well, I don't have time to argue with this fucking idiot. I'm going to go to the gym. That is bad and any pill, bad and anything that you can do is be physically fit. All right. I like it. For me, it's a combination of Occam's razor and the Jefferson quote to question what boldness

2:28:55even the existence of God, which of course I don't, but you understand his point there. You know, what can, what, how bombastic can I be in making this point? Well, even question, the existence of God for that matter. I'm always thinking. I'm always questioning and I'm always comparing it to Occam's razor. Does that really make sense? Hmm. Why is that the simplest explanation that doesn't fucking make sense? And a lot of times the, the provided explanation is quite simple, but is, is it the simplest? Does it make the most sense? Just keep questioning. And then not to the point, not to close up with this, not to the point where you're like, I don't believe anything. Yeah. Because then you're getting into your thing again, like you're, you're a battery that, like you've said before. You're gonna drain that damn battery all the time by going question with boldness every damn thing. No, just apply a little bit of Occam's razor, apply a little bit of make it sure you're not inside the, the dialectic constructed over to the window of posing viewpoints. Kind of take all of these three things and mash them together.

2:29:57That's why I came up with the three things. Because I think they really work well together with synergies. Question everything that matters is probably a better, but that's a good one. Where do you, are you, are you better than Thomas Jefferson? Maybe. Come up with a better quote. What? Yeah. All right. And even more important than that, be humble. Yeah. That's, that's you, buddy. Question the things that matter that are going to affect you and your loved ones. And then everything outside of that, like, you know, I'm not going to get worked up about the moon landing. Like it's interesting. Yeah. I'm not going to go down a rabbit hole about that. Am I going to go down a rabbit hole about food or like the jibby jabby is something like that. Yeah, because my family benefit from the questioning.

2:30:58Yes. I love jibby jibby jabby. Jibby jabby jabby. Jibby jabby. You say that? Jibby jabby. All the Brits say it. While speaking of questions, I have more questions for you. I've got 11 of them. I read the, read a book called Project Mind Control. It wasn't as good as chaos and it wasn't as good as poison or in chief. It was okay. But at the end, they had some questions that could be useful. I'm not perfect. It could be useful to make you think if you're privy to an influence operation. How you can prevent that. So you can work out if I am being mind controlled. Yeah. I'm going to take the quiz to find out if you're susceptible to mind control. Wow. Okay. So 11 questions. Can people play along at home? They can. I would encourage them to do so. And if you're into posting on chat rooms and boosts and all these different ways you have to communicate with the ungovernable crew, go ahead and do that.

2:32:02Maybe give us your answers. And label them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11. Or if you just want to answer 1, just give us the number. Or do A, B, C, D, E and go that way if you're ungovernable. Say fuck you John. I do want some of them. Mother fucker. Yeah. I do want some stupid shit like that. Number 1, do you believe things simply because you want them to be true? No. 2, do you refuse to change your mind regardless of the evidence? I don't think so. I do often change my mind on things. So I don't think so. That's fine. I know you very well so I can have a good bullshit detector. Okay. So I know me answering honestly. I would call you out. Yeah. What are you going to do? Lies. Yeah. I might. I was surprised you will see how you do. That is false. I don't want any self-fulfilling prophecies. I'm not going to say anything. 3, do you ignore a rationalized way evidence that contradicts your beliefs? I'd say I probably ignore it a little bit.

2:33:05Okay. Because I, because it's the battery thing. You only got so much time in the day, man. Yeah. Especially like beliefs that I'm very convinced about if there's like one little thing that maybe would go against that, but it would take a lot of time. But I'd probably be like, yeah, not today. Not today, Satan. Yeah. Do you reject the consensus of the experts? Hmm. Do you reject Fauci and the experts? He is science. So I suppose I can't because he literally is science. Do you reject the concerns of the experts? I reject the consensus of anyone who labels himself as anything. Right. Unless I deem them to be an expert and my version of an expert would be if a cure or a Seth says to me, hey, mate, you should probably update this bit of software because you're

2:34:08going to be vulnerable otherwise. I'm not going to start arguing with them because they have proven to me. They're over and over and over and over that they're right. If you tell me something about mining or energy or telecoms, I'm going to go, yeah, because he's always fucking right about it. But I'm not going to just take somebody who calls himself an expert at their word. Mm-hmm. Especially when they're holding the expert over your head as another system of control. Just having a little badge does not do anything in intellectually honest person that does that thing a lot. Well, take expert out and say that. Yeah, that phrase there that works for me. Yes. Do you talk only to people who share your beliefs? Yeah. Yeah. We just talked about that at the beginning of the show. If I can avoid wasting energy with people who have opposing views and it's not helpful

2:35:13for me to learn about, sometimes I'll speak to somebody who knows about things that I don't know about and they have opposing views on nine out of ten things, but they're an expert in marine biology and I want to know about a certain fish. Right. I will definitely speak to that person. But if they're then like, hey, should we talk about how everyone should have all their weapons taken away from them? I will avoid that because it's a waste of my fucking time. Do you find it difficult to empathize with people who disagree with you? That's number six, by the way. No, I actually think I'm quite good at empathizing with. I think I'm quite good at putting myself in other people's shoes. Okay. Trying to get into their heads. Yeah. I think. Hey, that's a good start. Do you let your group define your identity? Have done at times. Okay. I don't think so so much now. Like I think I definitely am guilty of that. Yeah, I think we all have at some point. Yeah, at times I've been definitely guilty.

2:36:15I don't think so much now. Eight. Do you or does your group have a history of making failed predictions? I think when I say my group, my, yeah, when you say your group, that's my close knit group of people that I would say are experts in their field and that I trust in their different areas of expertise, have an extremely good above and beyond good predictions. But maybe that's just me being brainwashed and arrogant. Number nine, would you do something morally repugnant to appease your group? Oh, my God. Why is it taking you so long to answer that? Well, I'm just trying to think, trying to answer honestly. This is the worrying me. At times, probably, there's levels to it, obviously.

2:37:16But I wish this wasn't going so long. That's a scab I'd like to pick. Yeah, I wouldn't say, I don't know. Would you do something morally repugnant to appease your group? Yeah, I probably would. If it's like everything kicks off, like we think it might and I have to do something bad for the good of the group. And I know it's bad, but overall, it's good. Yeah. I don't really, I don't think that's the context of the question, I'd be honest with you. I've got misreading it. No, I think it'd like to let's think about the Manson family. Text Watson takes these girls and shoots this, whoever, you know, see bring or Sharon Tate to make Charlie happy. I think that's, I think that's the context of some. No, like if you said to me, you know, when you were a kid, like, hey, man, steal that those baseball cards, then you think the kids are going to think you're cool because

2:38:20you stole the baseball cards. When I was a kid, I definitely did dumb shit just for attention. Well, you're not a kid. Hunter. That's a grown man. As a grown man, no, no. Like it take, I think now it takes a lot for me to be persuaded on anything. So if it's that, if it's like, yeah, if it's because you're a curmudgeon. Yeah. So then no. All right. And 11. If a reasonable person disagree with your beliefs, would you become angry with them? Let's bring this back to the beginning of the show. No. Well, good. I think I think I didn't need this quiz to know this stuff about you. Would you answer some honestly if I asked them to? I would. I would do nothing but answer them honestly. Again, no, I know you're not in a, in a weird Asian-led sex cult. BDSM. Not anymore. Go milking. I'm out.

2:39:21I was out last week. Do you believe things simply because you want them to be true? No. Okay. Do you refuse to change your mind to regardless of the evidence? Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes, yeah. Okay. Because you're going to present, sometimes people want to present you with night neutral evidence. Mm-hmm. So to me, that's almost like, all right, I believe X. All right. Well, I got all these articles. You know, like, people will do, you know, and I look, I saw an article, I saw an article on Facebook and I sent it to you. Read it. That's the evidence. You know what I mean? That's a tough one. Okay. I think that you're pretty levelheaded and if someone comes to, I mean, I can say this, honestly, Max, I will investigate it. Yeah. And so, but when you say refuse to change your mind regardless, the evidence, I'm like, no, I sent you something on Facebook. I think that comes down to reputational, like, if someone that you know is generally right

2:40:25on things or is a reasonable person and they present you evidence, I think you're very likely to go and investigate that. Yes. I most certainly will. Yeah. If it's like some mama, the front gate of the school who's a fucking lip-tard prick says, like, oh, look at this Facebook thing. You'll just go, oh, shut up. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Let me see my back. Okay. Do you ignore or rationalize away evidence that contradicts your beliefs? No. It's a continuation of question two. I'll look into it. Okay. Number three, do you ignore or rationalize away evidence that contradicts your beliefs? This is the same question. Oh, repeated the same question. Sorry about that. Okay. Sorry. So, do you ignore or rationalize away evidence that contradicts your beliefs? This is not a mind control technique to break you.

2:41:26Do you have you and Cameron? Number four, do you reject the consensus of experts? Offhand, yeah. Yeah. I think would it be first? I saw the answer. I think I do it. Yeah. Okay. Do you talk only to people who share your beliefs for the most part, yeah? Do you find it difficult to empathize with people who disagree with you? Difficult. I can do it. You can do it. I don't want to do it, but I can. Okay. Do you let your group define your identity? No. I don't think so. Do you or does your group have a history of making failed predictions? Are you talking about the ungovernables? That's a solid crew of predictors.

2:42:29It's an extremely solid crew. Solid. It just becomes so solid over the past two, three weeks. It's wild. Mm-hmm. Something's going on here. Yes. Almost like other people are controlled and the ungovernables are the only ungovernables, even in a ungovernable group. Blum my mind, bro. Would you do something morally repugnant to appease your group? No. Yes, you strike quick with that one. I really let myself down, answering that. It's like, fuck, it's actually a psychopath. Would you tolerate others in the group doing something morally repugnant? No, I'm a cop. I'm a cop, yeah. Yeah, I know you would. 11. If a reasonable person disagreed with your beliefs, would you become angry with them? No. No, no, no.

2:43:29I don't. I don't care. I'll be annoyed. Yeah, you're not really an angry person. Closing. Can tankerous, that's what Sarah calls me. Oh, that's good word. Yeah. The oldest program's tried to break the individual mind and rebuild it. The newer systems tried to shape the environment so thoroughly that most people never noticed they're being shaped. The answer to both is the same. Stay ungovernable. Question everything, especially the things you are not supposed to question. Keep your own counsel. Confuse to be trapped inside someone else's dialectic and never hand over the right to do your own thinking. That is how you answer MK Ultra with MK Ungovernable. I love that. Thank you. The true months and families just come through my gates. They are about to cause real chaos.

2:44:32And you're sharing teeth. Yeah. So I think we should wrap it up very quickly. That's it. That's the wrap up. Well, let's just tell them how you love them. Yeah. I just want to say anyone who has any advice on books to read, things to go through, tangential topics, suggestions of other topics, we have the next like three lined up anyway. Their answers to those 11 questions. Get in touch. I'd love to hear from you. Send your boosts, get involved. And yeah, just want to say thank you for everyone supporting the own government of Boles and pushing this thing forward. And I hope that people enjoy this new show. It's been fun. It has been fun. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye. Bye.

2:47:30Bye.