Menopause Myths, Hormone Therapy, and Predatory Marketing - Amanda Thebe

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1:03If you've ever bought something like a supplement for your Metapause symptoms, and then later felt like you just totally got played, or do you want to know what's really going on behind the scenes in this multi-billion-dollar Metapause business? And now how to really spot out the snake oil? Then this episode is for you because today I brought on Amanda Thieb, who is really not afraid to call out BS on social media, and expose how so many people are taking advantage of women who are feeling ill, desperate, will pay any amount of money to feel better. Believe me, I know what it's like to be there. I was there living with chronic pain from hip osteoarthritis, and I paid tens of thousands of dollars to just get rid of the pain. So if you want to save time, you want to save money, then listen to the whole episode where Amanda digs deep, and she shows how to decipher Metapause nonsense from the real deal. Have you heard of peptides for your skin? I bet you have. But have you heard that copper peptides are the queen of skin peptides? Maybe not.

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4:09You are now listening to the HackMyH podcast. The show that brings you guests for the woman going through the menopause journey. I'm your host Zora Benemou, a gerontologist, certified sports nutrition, menopause, and breathing coach. Now if you're a woman in Perry Menopause or post-menopause, check out the programs and freebies on the HackMyH website or the biohacking menopause private membership and Facebook group to optimize your menopause experience. Because menopause is inevitable, but suffering is optional. I feel like I know you because I've been watching your content. I don't know if you know this, but I found you originally through Dr. Stacey Sims. And it was one of those online events during COVID and it was so good. And she had Von Der Wright and all these other great people on there. And you were one of them. So I was like, I just writing down a man theme, like, get the book, menopause lips, and all this stuff. So I've been watching you for a while. So it's really fun actually to have you come here full circle and discuss some of the things that you've changed. I've seen you evolve as well throughout the years.

5:11And you've been in this menopause space for a long time. And a lot longer than some of the other people were saying online, including me. I kind of got this in 2020, more or less. And you have your own story with the menopause journey. And your book actually explains it really well. So I have a link to get your book and share your story. But I kind of want to dive into the topic that I really want to discuss because what I'm seeing what you're doing is really intriguing. And I think it's an important message. And I think I can learn from you as well. So let's talk about what you saw maybe a decade ago when you started your journey. And what are you seeing today in this menopause space? Great question. Thank you very much for having me. I'm super excited to be here. And I think there has been an evolution of myself, probably like all of us, essentially. I'm not just in the menopause space, but in life. But also my evolution within this space has gone alongside the evolution of the menopause conversation. And I think that I never planned to do this. This is never on my bingo card. But here we are, 10 years later, where I have been talking about menopause from a real advocacy education standpoint.

6:12That's the spirit of the work that I do comes from the fact that I'm one of you. I know what you're going through and I want to help women navigate this really to mulch your time. And 10 years ago when I started talking about it when I was in the thick of it myself, Laura. There really wasn't very many people talking about menopause. And it was very difficult to get traction on the conversation. And all I was trying to do back then was like, we're just someone listen to us for crying out loud, like just see us at least. And I moved to Texas, actually. I don't know if you know that I was in Canada where I'm back now. And I moved to Texas for four years. And I decided to write a book about my experiences, what the science is telling us right now, leaning into the experts that could help me out within this sort of conversation, and then giving women solutions from the lifestyle medicine area of the world that I live in. And I wrote this book and I was super happy with it. Got an agent straight away. Nobody wanted to buy this book. This is now five, six years ago. Nobody wanted to buy a manopause book.

7:12In fact, I think Simon Schuster said who in earth is going to buy a manopause book. There was literally two others on the market. And I was like, well, if you are fine, I don't need to, I don't need to publish it. But then a publisher did come up later on. And I was like, I really think we need to do this. And it ended up being the best seller and it still is. It's doing very well. And it, but it's written in an evergreen manner because menopause is menopause, right? It's not going to change dramatically from year to year. Even though science evolves and we learn more and it evolves, maybe some of the stuff in the book needs to be updated, but the essence of it still is true. And so what I've seen is to me, that was like the start of, oh, I am get interaction and people are willing to listen to me. And then I saw other people talking about it and we all collaborated and we all got in this together. And it was really great. Like honestly, about eight, nine year ago, I felt like a thickness of women, like a real sister heard of us getting in there and talking about it, helping women navigate the medical system, the lifestyle side and all of the bits that go with it, workplace, education, family, you name it.

8:15So that's what happened in the evolution. What was happened since then and you know this because you, I think we're going to talk about it, is it's become an industry it really has. And what I've seen is where women generally are looking for help and aid and assistance and conversation. That's still the case, but there is a way that you can do that authentically and there's a way that you can do that and take advantage of women and the menopause gold rushes. I think the New York Times named it is the way that women have been taken advantage of. And I think we're going to dig into that more later. So I do see the way that the conversation, it's more prevalent and it's there and workplace is talking about it. I go there all the time. There's loads of books out there about menopause now and I love it. And with all of the wellness world becomes the people that want to profit, like really profit in an unauthentic way. And so is it inauthentic, unauthentic? I'm showing my, that's my menopause brain right there inauthentic. You're right. And we've seen it, I've seen it as well in this short amount of time evolve.

9:15And I got into it just because I was doing some podcasting around women, women by hacking over 50 until some women were saying, look, please invite some menopause specialists. Please invite hormone specialists. We want to know more. And I was like, okay. So I was going to throw it into this myself. And I was like, oh, my, when I learned, I was going to holy moly. Like, why do we not have information like this? And that's sort of with that. You think, well, I just want to educate women. And then this is where I am today. And since then, I've got a degree in gerontology. And now I'm really like to look, put the two pieces together of helping women through this phase of life. But I'm always talking about protecting your radio itself as well. If you're interested in it. Oh, I love that, by the way. Congratulations. I just think that's awesome because in fact, a lot of the conversation that I really want women to lean into is, Harry menopause sucks really sucks. Menopause is when you no longer fertile and you're going to start not be able to reproduce anymore. And then the rest of your life in postmenopause is your time to reclaim your health. And we want to live till there were 80s and we want to thrive when we want to be strong.

10:17And we want to be independent and all of those things. And then work starts now. It doesn't start when you're 60, 70 or 80. So I love that you're doing that. Thank you. This is a great opportunity. I've always tried to put a positive spin on menopause when we can. And it's an amazing opportunity we have to actually change the trajectory of our future self. We do it today. I'm happy like that. And I'm excited. And it seems like a lot of the residents, a lot of people that I'm attracting to this space as well. So it's good because I've been wearing the gerontology hat for so long. And it's so unsexy. And who cares about prevention? And who can now? It seems to finally be a bit more interesting to the community. The other thing I want to talk about. So you did mention, I agree with you 100%. We've seen this evolution and this gold rush, this menopause gold mine or gold rush. And it's a $20 billion industry if not more by now. And you have all kinds of people. And I love to hear your take. I agree. You see, there are things that are really amazing to help women, whether it's a product or service or whatever. But then you get the predators. And I was like, I don't give enough credit to at least the girls were listening here because they're smart.

11:17Like they're, they can sniff out snake oil from a mile away. But there are plenty of people who can't or don't and don't understand or maybe just brand new to this space and haven't seen this evolution. So why don't you share with me what does it look like to you at a menopause predator or what should we be aware of? And how can we distinguish what's true and authentic and what's not. And my gosh, we're going to have a conversation as well. I think I'm going to put a pin in that so we can talk a bit about that. Talk about that too. Yeah, it's a really great question. And it's not an easy answer. I don't think because I call it wellness one career. I don't know if there's a like a level about foul language on here, but it's that's the word I always use because it just it's like the snake holes salesman of times gone by that there's always somebody with the answer. Right. And it's that there's a few red flags that we can talk about. But it's a complicated answer because it's the sophisticated sometimes industry in that what a predator will do is they'll see a woman's pinpoint. It might be an individual symptom or it might be wet again.

12:19Typically that's a good one for to go for midlife women or it might be menopause as a whole and reframing it in this fragile negative like decline type manner. And the answer to any of those pin points is their solution. This is the solution that science isn't sharing with you. This is the solution your doctor's not telling you they're holding it back from you. Nobody else knows the answer but me and guess what not only do I have the answer I can talk to you about I also have the product that will serve you and it's this type of cult. Servier type complex that comes with these people that I literally don't understand because if I felt like I was selling something to somebody and I really didn't believe what I was saying because these people if they're smart enough don't believe they're on hype. If they're cherry picking information to suit their buyers if it's not the consensus of the science community. If they're doing that I don't know how they sleep at night.

13:19And so this is a choice that these people are making and the choice what that choice does is it puts them in a profitable margin and it does a disservice to women. I agree with what you said though, Gen X women have got a fire up their eyes and we're sick of this and we can sniff this out. And I am probably one of the more skeptical people that I know I just don't believe anything until I can see and I'm okay to change my mind. It's not that I'm not I'm a dick in the mode. It's just because I can see what people are doing and so it might be hidden behind a multi level marketing campaign. It might be hidden behind a curated supplement line that 20 billion dollar industry the majority of it is unproven supplement and particularly proprietary blended supplements and that means for anyone who's listening and doesn't quite hasn't heard that term. It's like a mixture of different ingredients that have been put together to solve a particular issue. Say like hot flashes and it's marketed to women as the solution, but they don't have to prove anything. They don't have to list the ingredients like the quantities or the qualities there.

14:23You know, they can literally just mix it with I always say like saw just a mouse poo put it in a capsule and sell it to you and you have no idea what you're taking. And so it's that type of thing that I think is just a dishonest way of helping women. In fact, it's not helping them. It like I said, I think it's doing them a disservice. And it's not just me that thinks that, but I don't mind calling it out because I just feel like if somebody can say to women, are you taking that because somebody on the internet told you to or are you taking this product because you went and had some blood work and the doctor said, are you have a deficiency in I and then you need to take care. There's a difference between the two conversations. And so it's really to help steer women. I'm not doing it to share anybody. I'm not doing it to like call anybody out. If you notice I don't name people, I talk about the practices that people use that I think are an authentic. Yeah, and actually, if anybody watches you on Instagram or Facebook, I follow you on Instagram. You do a really good job about that. And it does bring me to like to be because I'm someone who falls into this.

15:23I see bells and whistles myself. I'm like, oh my god, this sounds amazing. And I feel like if you are desperate, you will try any so far. I'm not going to have it. I haven't had the typical menopause symptoms, but I have had chronic pain. I've had osteoarthritis. And this is chronic hit pain. And I was desperate. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars to just feel better. So I can understand. I just have to put that in a woman who's feeling the hot flushes, the anxiety, the mood swings, the terrible sleep and everything together. I saw completely agree with that. And that's what I want meant by shame. When I say somebody has bought their supplements that cost them $400, $500 a month because that's sort of the type of money that women spend. The blame is not on the woman. These women are suffering their quality of life is impacted by menopause. They're not getting a conversation where their doctor, they're having to go to 46 appointments before anybody will listen to them. They may be even going to the doctor themselves and not even knowing their own parry manopause and so spinning their wheels trying to work out why they don't recognize themselves.

16:26And so when their favorite influencer comes on social media and says, I see you. I understand and I can help you. I get it. Like I totally get it. But there comes a time when we need to have an honest conversation and go, are these things? Is this program? Is this message? Are these supplements actually helping me? Is this the answer that I personally need? And look at this and say, what is it that what is it that this person is doing? Is this person actually leaning in and saying, I want to hold you through this journey? Or is this person sent to you? I've got a $10 million supplement industry and I want to keep it fueled. It's like, can you tell where there's a bias and can you tell where there's somebody that really is like standing by the science? And so the shame does not go on the woman ever. We can never talk like that. I think some people, I think when they create a program or a detox or pain relief program, whatever it is, I think they've had their own journey. Their pain story to success story and they genuinely believe because they've healed themselves.

17:27Maybe they've held a couple of people around them. So sometimes I wonder if those people are sort that they're intentionally trying to lure you in. I think they may be really genuinely, but they can't help everybody. I think even doctors who work quite well versed in certain things can try their best and they can't quite find out what it is that's wrong with you. So I guess I don't know where it's kind of hard to find that line where I can tell you what the line is right now. The way you spoke then is not the way that these people speak. You spoke in nuance. You spoke in the gray area where you're saying if somebody says this work for me, it may not work for you. This is I've tried this. It made me feel good. Do you want to try it? That's putting information in front of the person that makes them have a choice. There once there aren't been authentic and truthful as then this is going to work. This is what you need. You have to do this. Stop eating gluten because it's destroying your stomach. Don't put bananas in your smoothie. That's the latest thing as we've all seen. I'm not rubbing. It's just not okay. Like this is just this is like people leaning into fear. Fear is a great seller.

18:34So leaning into fear. The quick headlines, the new studies without looking at the totality of the data, the consensus like what is what we know works. The nuance is where the magic happens in your field of like the age in population. You said it's boring. There's a lot of gray zones. There's a lot of nuance like it doesn't sell. It really is like quite like boring. But that's my pose too. That's exercise. That's nutrition, stress management, all of it. So when some bra comes on saying stop doing a hit train and it's destroying your estrogen and it's going to give you Alzheimer's because you're destroying your brain cells. I'm okay calling that out. It's just not true. You do tend to see the people that are overconfident. It's attractive. I have to say if somebody told me I'd remove your pain and you're not handy surgery. I'm like, I'm and that confident because they've helped me out as much as I can smell a rat. I feel when you've really tried everything, maybe that's the one, maybe that's the solution. But that is also a clue that overconfidence perhaps, but I can see I can totally see how you can fall for it too.

19:36Go in with your eyes wide open then. If that's the case, I'm like again, it should be your choice. If you're in chronic pain and it's been decades and you're in agony and you've tried everything and somebody offers you something that feels appealing. Nobody's saying you can't do it, but be open minded. Give it a go. Try it. If you were trying, so if we switched this to you went to your doctor for a new medication and he asked you to try it, he's going to say to you, you're going to do that. And there's no question. You're not allowed to change anything. You literally have to stay on this. But the real conversation is we're going to try this. You're going to see how it makes you feel and if it doesn't work, then we're going to look at some of this. And that the type of mindset. I think you need when you see these people. You're right. If you can put that because you may go, yeah, you really want to try it. You don't want to fall for it. It probably depends on where you're at. What's your budget? I got to a point where I just had ran out of money and ran out of time and I'm like, I just need the surgeries. I don't know what else to do. And you know what? Yes. Sorry. Sorry. I didn't mean to wait. I play with a tiny little time lapse. But that's fine. We can do it. But what I was going to say is that's another thing about the menopause world.

20:38I truly believe in access to care for all and nobody should have to pay for that. That's in my ideal world. Now I've been in a healthcare system in the UK, in Canada and in the US. I know how they work. I've been experienced them all. When I was in the US, I was very lucky that I was there with my husband's work. He had very good insurance. And one day I went to the doctor and had an MRI that same afternoon. That's ridiculous. That was the level of care I got. I know that women are not getting the level of care that they deserve. They're fighting for their health. They're having to argue with doctors. And I don't even believe it's doctors gaslighting women. They're the lack of education. And so women are having to go in and educate their doctors and really have deep conversations that the eight minutes they have where the doctor doesn't really allow for. So what I was going to say is that when I think about the menopause conversation and going back to your first question, how is it evolved? It's evolved into a place of privilege. It's evolved into a place where the privileged woman is the one that gets the care, especially if she's a white woman. Because if you look at the social determinants of health that look at ethnicity, income level, education on all of those things, the women that come out on top look like you.

21:43And I really wish that we could talk about menopause through the lens that's a little bit more inclusive. I just needed to say that. Oh, it's definitely that remember studying this in gerontology as well as that the inequities in disparities in health care is rampant. And it just blew my mind. And in Europe, so you're right. I see a universal because I don't know if you've seen I go share reels from around the world. I go and travel and I used to be a no man. I'm recovering them. And I was in the street and I would ask them five questions about menopause. And I do see very big differences in education about menopause and the options and the care. And there's so much nuance there too because someone would say, I'm not, I've never seen a doctor and I never will. I'm afraid of doctors or I don't have the money to see a doctor or there's many reasons why they don't. And so many times they may just say, what's the supplement I can buy because they know either they don't know anything about HRT or they think it's bad and they rely on herbs and something local to help them.

22:44And so this is where I think sometimes they are the ones who are just I'll take anything I can only afford a supplement right now. I can't afford medicine. I can't afford a doctor. So I will get some kind of an herb to try to help me through this. They don't really have those options. And like you say, it depends on a lot of things and also the cultural aspect as well like how a woman would talk to their doctor about it. Sometimes it's not even a conversation they're allowed to have. So it really does depend on so many things, but I really would love to see the conversation expand outside of the Western world. That's happening now. I'm actually sort of part of an organization called Menor Global. It was started by some of the families in the UN, some of the different organizations and it's looking at like menopause in Africa and Southeast Asia and Asia and the Philippines and it's so good. We're starting to learn more about other women's experiences and they matter. They really matter. They do. They do. And we're still so far. At least from what I've seen myself is we are so far away from that conversation. So there's a lot of different folks that are able to meet women in different cultures and different sociokonomics status also may respond to me differently.

23:47But it's I get very often this sort of weird look like why you want to talk about menopause or or I'm too young and they're 48 or something or these just not. They're not open yet about the conversation. Some cultures are up to find that Thailand actually is quite quite open and quite excited to talk about it. They call it the golden years there, which I think is lovely. And I work with the Indigenous community here in Canada, I've done quite a few sort of speaking events with them and like organized events. And they actually have a pretty poor experience from a medical side, but there's also resistance to Western medicine there a little bit and a little bit of distrust as well. But the where they revere, the woman who's going through a manopause is really admirable. It is literally, she becomes like the auntie or the person that we go to to get the information from. And I love the respect that some cultures will show when the one she goes through it where we don't often see that in through the Western lens. Like we know statistically we've seen studies that show that women still feel like invisible

24:49or that it's sort of who they can't talk about it. And then we've got the fragility and we're past our prime. All of those tropes that get thrown at us still exist. The exist in the workplace, women report them. It's ageist, it's sexist and it sucks. And I think what Gen X is a push and back on that. I don't understand the Gen X millennial thing, but I do know that I think that I'm like 56. I'm in like the 55 to 60 age group where I feel like I've been talking about it for a while and then the next lot of women are coming up in the five year tranches and they're definitely not putting up with this. So I just love the evolution of the resilience that we're all building. Yeah, I agree. Hey, biohiking bestie. You know, I talk a lot about peptides like BPC 157 and TB 500 for tissue repair or injury recovery, surgery healing, but let's be honest, not everyone wants to jab themselves with needles or just not having major surgery and don't need to go that far. That's why I got curious about level of health.

25:51My biohiking besties have been talking about them for ages and I never got a chance to try them until now and they've created oral versions of my favorite peptides. They've got BPC 157. They got another one called AC fragments, which is kind of like TB 500. It's for healing, gut health, tissue repair, without injections. And I love that this opens the door for more of us to try them. They've also got a really cool blend called Wolverine. And if you know my story with the two hip surgeries, you know why that name caught my attention. It's designed for recovery of our muscles and tissues and regeneration, which is right up our alley. And they've got so many amazing options on their website. It's really hard for me to pick just one. You've heard me rave about GHKCU cover peptides for skin repair and tissues and scars on the outside with my skincare and my serum. Level up actually has a GHKCU supplement. And that's a really powerful inside out approach to support skin collagen scars, just more tissue recovery. And I'm going to re-haul my Wolverine recovery guide

26:54to include these. And there are two more. I'm going to explore. One is called the Ultimate GI repair and the other is KPV. And these are formulas which can give you an extra support to reduce inflammation, prepare for surgery, just everyday resilience in the gut department. And everything is clinically dozed and purity tested. So if you're curious, head over to leveluphealth.com that's spelled L-V-L-U-P health.com and check out their amazing lineup. They're a little pricey, but one, their formulas contain multiple ingredients. So it's like buying five supplements in one, two, this is what quality looks like. And three, I've got a discount code for you. Sora, C-O-R-A for 15% off. So try one thing that matches where you are right now, whether it's recovery, gut, or skin, and see how your body responds and then get back to me. And let me know how it works out for you so we can compare notes. What I have noticed is I'm always looking for that culture or that spur certain group of people

27:55who where the woman is revered and try to find that. But to what I'm seeing, it's a little bit romanticized. Yes, I think certain cultures are better than the Western culture. The attitude, like say, to menopause is different. But I wouldn't say that a woman's excited to go into menopause. She's open to talk, the tie we're open to talking about it. It's much easier to, I get less rejection on the street, to be honest. But they still think that they relate it to being old and people are agiast. And they're agiast all over the world. They're just less agiast in certain cultures and that. And so I feel sometimes it's hard to say that everyone is like this. Everybody's revered in their older age. I've seen it all actually. And it's not exactly as we think it is, but it is better relatively speaking to what we know. And that's the thing. Because I search for it. I'm like, I want to see. Yeah, I can't argue with that for sure. I do think that other cultures can respect women more than others for sure. And that's sort of the point I was making. I do think though that we have to fight back against those societal and cultural norms

28:57that have been associated with us. And I do think that we are the right people to be doing that in from our side, from the Western world. I do see that there's a whole go-for-yourself attitude that we've got if you don't like what you see then tough. Because we're here and we're loud. And I do like that. So there's definitely, I know like my mother would never have done this. We're definitely the generation to make a shift. And we have made a shift. And as many of us doing it, like all of the people talk about menopause have elevated the conversation, whether I think they're a good or a bad actor in it. It's now become a word that is spoken about. When I went to the doctors 12 years ago, no conversation about menopause at all. And I didn't even present with typical menopause symptoms. Two years after spinning my wheels looking for help and feeling dreadful, I went to a gynecologist, pretty savvy, on the nose. He said, you're in perimenopause. I'd never heard that word before. 10 years ago, the word perimenopause wasn't a word we use. Now it's like the cool hot sister of menopause.

29:57And it's everywhere, right? So even though it's like the worst part of menopause, literally the worst part. So I really love that conversation is shifted. And we're normalizing it to the point where you don't go, I'm a burst, and you hide behind the word. We can say the word now and not the embarrassed about it. So the shift is happening. I still see some women though in, I was recently in Thailand and Vietnam, and the Philippines as well. And they still haven't really quite heard of perimenopause. Or if they have, they're like, oh, oh, they hear the word menopause. And they go, oh, no, no, no, I'm not even close. And they're clearly in their 40s. Or I ask them or answer one of the questions I ask in their age. And so it's just because it means you're old. And some people, the worst for me was in Czech Republic, where people would just look at me and go, I'm not going to answer your questions and get out of my store. And I happened to over and over and over again. I asked them younger, local women. I was like, why am I so rejected? You're like, you're telling them they're old. And they're very ageist. Metapause equals being old.

30:57And so it's the ages and that's always been fed to us that being old means less value for a person. And I know that exists. And I don't believe in it personally. But it's been a lot of work on my personal part to really be proud to be a 50 something year old woman that's really, and this might seem like one of those conversations that shouldn't feel as, oh, what's the word I'm trying to say? It shouldn't feel as jarring when I say this as it does. But I feel better now than I did prior to Metapause. And I literally had the worst Metapause experience. It changed my quality of life. It was dreadful. I, at some times, had suicidal ideology. I really didn't want to continue living in the body I was in. It was just awful. And I'm eight years out of Metapause now. And I've never felt this healthy, this good. And I'm not saying this to flex and say, oh, look at me. Are I amazing? What I'm saying is this is not uncommon.

31:57This is known. We women can thrive and tick on the world after Metapause. And that shouldn't be something we're afraid to say. And it seems that when you say that, women think you're diluting their experience where they are hurting. And that's not what we're doing at all. Both can be true. No, you're right. It just reminds me my early interviews when I first started interviewing a mentalist street. And it was started out more about I would find our older women and in their 70s more less than up and say, oh, what are your secrets to aging and longevity and all that. And then it evolved slowly into the questions about Metapause. But I was still choosing the same group of women. It's 60, 70s, 80s. Because also I was a little bit timid to who, especially in your age, I do think she's 40s, 50s, because she could be 30. Or I was thinking, she's older, she looks young, but it was really hard for me to end the beginning navigate. So I was always choosing these older women. And so to be safe, I don't offend either. So what I would, when these Metapause really started to come out and the comments that were,

32:58it was getting, I know a woman who was in their 70s talking about, oh wow, it is so much better on the other side. Or this is great. Or it was easy. I mean, if some women just say, look, I didn't feel anything, but they don't know about the 103 symptoms, but they just didn't have the hot flashes. And the comments were really like, oh, she doesn't know. It was a bit, as if this woman was dismissive of their struggle. And that's where I think you're coming from. And I saw it in that, and I don't think that was the intention of these interviews that I don't have. I have no influence on that. I just let the woman speak. And if it is the opposite way around, too, if a woman is really sharing her struggle and how horrible this experience was, sometimes you get comments of women saying, oh, she's just not exercising, she doesn't eat right. This is a one minute reel. I have no idea what this woman is. So disrespectful to be like that when you're asking women to be, if we're saying, please listen to us. We're sick of being ignored, please hear us. And then somebody doesn't want to hear your lived experience. We literally can't win. And it's very frustrating. Our lived experience really matters. And it shouldn't be a radical act to say,

33:59I've been through something hard, and now I'm thriving. It shouldn't be radical for me to say, you know what? And this is something that people get upset about as well. It shouldn't be a radical act for me to say, I feel really good and healthy. And I'm not worried about my future health and I don't take home on therapy. Yeah. People are like, well, wait, hang on, don't you need home on therapy to prevent cardiovascular disease and prevent Alzheimer's and to live forever? And I'm just like, that's not what the science is saying. No is the answer from me. And I can tell you why as well. But it's just because when you hear sound bites that are sent to women, if you don't do this, then you're going to be fragile. It ignores the reams of data and information that we have that you know about because of your degree that shows that exercise is probably up there is like the best thing you can do for your health, burn on ever, right? Just move more. The people that live longer are just not still. They move. And I'm not even just saying, go on strength train. I'm just saying, don't be sedentary. Eat really well, eat whole foods as much as humanly possible and save the fun stuff for treats.

35:01Don't have them too often. Limit the alcohol as much as possible. All these are basic borrowing things. But these are the things that help you thrive and live longer. We know that. So you sleep out, sleep ducks, right? And sleep, if you have really chronic sleep, is one of the factors for Alzheimer's. And so if you're someone in menopause who's waking up all the time because hot flashes are keeping you awake at night and you're not sleeping and you're getting five hours of sleep a night. And that's gone on for a long time. So you're chronically like under-slept. That's the risk factor for Alzheimer's. So, holotherapies likely a really good option for you. If you speak to your doctor, you should be able to have that conversation. And so I'm here for all of the conversations, the grey zones, where the magic happens. But just because I don't fit into a particular category doesn't mean my experience and the information I'm sharing isn't true, right? And I think that's what's missing from menopause is these headlines. This is one of the reasons I like what you're saying and I want to do it on because I feel that you're very well grounded.

36:03You're not sticking your stick in the mud either way. And like me, I feel like I am the same in the sense that I want to do whatever works for you. I am pro-hormones. I think they're great. They're working for you, fabulous, but not every woman can take them or wants to take them and they feel really left out. And I don't think that's fair. And then we can't obviously out hormone a bad diet in lifestyle. We need to do all these other things, but it's not cool. It's not taking a side and people want black and white. And that's why I'll probably never be huge because that's not cool. It's not taking a stance in one way or the other, but that's why I like this biohacking space because it's all about an experiment with your own self, your end of one. What works for you? I don't care what the science says. It's there to guide you and it's can have some suggestions, but I've seen too many failures with people who've done what the science says to show, to prove and then they get really disappointed. And it's like, that's okay. We just shift gears and we'll find something else. And this is where I like your stance in the sense that you are also just saying, let's, there's some foundations, there's things that we know work pretty well,

37:04but it's up to you to also not be disappointed to me, doesn't work out, but also to find another way, because there are ways. There are many ways in your book. You list so many of the ways to do it. Everybody's experiences individual and what works for one person may not work with for another. And it's that simple. And yeah, I think that when somebody has one answer, it means that they're not looking at the total picture and they're not considering everybody. And that's usually the people that are saying things in the comments, like you said earlier, but it did this for me, but it helped me well, good, but it doesn't mean that it's gonna be the same for everybody else. And I think what happens is people get, and I say this with love, by the way, everyone who's listening gets selfish. And I mean that because you become so in tune with yourself and your own sort of maybe pen and suffering, it's really difficult to take into account somebody else's pen and suffering when you're in the thick of it yourself. And so when somebody says, but this doesn't, this is what she didn't, she never said to a common therapy. And somebody says, but it works for me, for my joint pen,

38:05nobody said it didn't, she said it didn't work for them. And then that's these, there's no room for nuance on social media by the way, anyway. So it's almost like a few tile battle to have those conversations. And just to confirm, by the way, I am very much pro home on therapy. It's called MHT, Menopods Home on Therapy. Home on Repleasant Therapy really relates to something else. But menopods Home on Therapy, I am a huge proponent of it is the first line treatment that should be considered for certain symptoms in menopods, not all, but certain symptoms. And most women are not getting that conversation. And I think that needs to change. But there are some women that are contraindicated that will not be able to take it. Choose not to take it like you said or people like me that tried to take it and really didn't do well on it. In fact, it considerably worse. And I think all of those have got a voice. And usually the women that don't get hurt are the ones that can't take it. They feel like, but you've just said I'm gonna get Alzheimer's if I don't take it. What am I to do? And I think that's really dishonest. Maybe you can have some tips on how a woman can filter

39:08some of the information she hears. Because I interview people who are very pro-hormones and when I was especially when I was learning all about it, I didn't know how amazing this is because in gerontology, we don't cover menopause, which is absurd, but now at least in my, one of my professors recently told me, well, thanks to you now it is in the curriculum. So I'm glad I used my voice, but it wasn't part of the conversation. So as I was learning, and so then I, when I started to understand a little bit more, I would have to reel the guest in because I know that they're not saying, oh, just take hormones, you'll solve all your problems. These are functional medicine doctors. So they just honed it on one topic. And of course they would say you have to do lifestyle, but they didn't say it until I actually had to pull it out because I was afraid the listener would say, oh, this is all I have to do. Then great, because that's what the conversation sounds like. And then when you break it into a reel, a one minute reel, like this is going to be really hard to convey because it does sound like a magical. And some people have very, they do have their stick in the ground and that's it. And that's what they want to share. And I'm glad we have at least a conversation about it. But how do you help a woman at least filter

40:11through what she's hearing when she sees a reel and that would say, even when you go to menopause conference, I'm sure you've seen, well, with the drop of estrogen, you have higher risk of cardiovascular disease, higher risk of osteoporosis, the loss of bones. I say the same thing too, because that's what's been presented. But when you do the loss of estrogen, then you go, what's the solution? It must be, let's put it back. So how, but that's what you're saying is that's not the solution. It's there, at least we don't have the data yet if that's the solution. But how would you frame this or help a woman navigate the filter? It's not quite what I said, but I can reframe that. So what the first thing I would say though, just to clarify is that if you aren't sure about what we know about what hormone therapy does, go to the menopause societies. In the US, the menopause societies website is menopause.org. They have tons and tons of information. They have their consensus statement. They have their position statements. They have their menopause guidelines, describing guidelines. The FDA also produced a list of all medications

41:14that are viable for menopause that include hormonal and non-hormonal. The best place you can get valid information from is there. And if anybody tells you that those guidelines are there to weaponize you, these are not my words, by the way, that the guidelines are there to weaponize you and they're not telling you the truth, I want you to just pause and take a deep breath because why would one doctor have the answer that a whole organization doesn't have who bring in independent researchers to look at the totality of data that exists? If something is missing in our science, we can't then just say, until the science catches up, I'm going to do this anyway. Because you don't know the long-term consequences of doing something when I'm talking about pharmaceuticals here. If you don't know what the final outcome is going to be in 10 or 20 years' time, then you may be causing harm. I'm talking about doctors who do things like ultra-high doses of hormones in women's without being in the consensus of the menopause societies who know what the levels of hormones to be prescribed should be

42:15that do the thing that help with bone health, that we know help with this or more to symptoms, help with the genital urinary syndrome of menopause. That's everything below the belt. I always say, don't beat about the bush, Zora. It's like everything down there. We also know that vaginal estrogen now is something that almost all women, there's always going to be exceptions, but almost all women can safely use for something that doesn't ever get better. Like the genital urinary syndrome of menopause is something that progressively gets worse as you get older. And so we have solutions in place that are safe, that are helpful for women. And so if you're a doctor that you love and follow and trust completely, say something that you don't quite believe, you can find the information on those menopause websites. And they're keeping on top of the data. And if the data's not there and the research isn't there, you don't fill that in with hope and you don't guess. Because that's a lie. If somebody said the data's not there, so I've decided to do this and you can be my guinea pig and you're just going to try it. And they're honest with you and then you make the choice to do that, then go ahead, be my guest.

43:15But that's not what's happening. And so right now the menopause societies are saying that menopause home on therapy cannot be used to prevent diseases. They don't have enough information, but there's some really great studies happening currently, like right now, that are looking at things like estrogen on our brain health. What does it look like against dementia's and Alzheimer's? What does it look like for cardiovascular disease? And right now, menopause home on therapy is not indicated to be prescribed to prevent those. It just simply isn't. That's not me talking that's the menopause guidelines. But what we do know is that this, when a woman goes through menopause and they go into postmenopause, regardless of if they're on home on therapy or not, because home on therapy is quite low level. Remember, it's not high doses. The number one prevention for cardiovascular disease that you can reduce by up to 80% is exercise in nutrition. Still, right? So even if you're on home on therapy, if you're like smoking cigarettes and drinking, you're glass of wine, thinking, oh, I'm fine,

44:16I don't need to do anything. Then you're actually not putting your body in the best position. And so I know that you think this way, that when you look at the totality of your health, you have to look at this as a toolkit. What are the components that work for you? It may have a pharmaceutical component, and it may have a supplement component. Supplements are like the cherry on the top, either way, they're not the foundation ever, right? But you've got your pharmaceuticals, and then you've got the lifestyle interventions. And they all work together in a very unique way for you. And that's the answer, and it's boring as hell. Right, that's it. The foundation is boring. Everybody wants to supplement in the injections and the hacks and whatever, to save the day. And I agree with you, it's the cherry on top. I always explain this biohacking pyramid is where the foundation, at least my definition of biohacking, because you got other people, is the foundation, the sleep, the exercise, the nutrition, the community, and blah, blah, blah. Boring, nobody wants to do it. And then the middle tier of stuff that you wouldn't really need a doctor for, and you should ask, obviously about supplements, but you don't need a prescription to buy a supplement or to do ice bathing or sauna or whatever.

45:18And then you'd have the top tier where you do need a doctor's prescription, which is HRT or regenerative medicine or whatever. And so people just want that middle and a top tier without doing the foundation. And I just don't see it working as well or at all if they don't have that. And it kept backfire if you don't. And that's just my experience in working with the community I have as well. So I always try to encourage that. But it's so boring. People hear the word biohacking and they just walk right away from it. I just give them the middle and the top. And it's just not the way I do it. I don't ever use the term biohacking. It's something I actually never use because it's been bastardized. But we don't need to go into that. That's not really the point of this conversation. But the essence of what you said, I completely agree with. But that's human nature. It's human nature to want the quick fixes because we're in pain. We're not happy. Something's not right. We want answers and we want to feel good now. Not in five months and six months, like now. So I get it. This is thoughtly to me. And we've all done it. It's not like I haven't looked for the quick answers either, right? But it's just that sometimes we've got to put the work in and the idea as well, I'm sure you talk about this

46:19in your community is that nothing needs a massive overhaul. If you're somebody who's very sedentary, has a terrible dire, isn't sleeping, has chronic stress. You have a lot going on. We're not going to say to you, you need to go to the gym three times a week and you need to be doods learning to run five care. Oh, and sleep eight hours. And by the way, can you only eat protein and green vegetables and blah, blah, blah, blah. They're not going to do anything. So the whole idea is then there's like from behavioral change and this is sort of my area as well. Is that pick something and just run with it. Something small, something you can do. Something that feels like a win. Within that triangle you spoke about, what's a quick win that you can commit to and stick with? Because then we have that cascade in snowball effect, right? Where we start doing something and then we're like, oh, I feel good doing that. I wonder what else I could try. I wonder whether I should have a protein shake. And I wonder whether I should do that. And it just makes us curious about our health, right? I like that. We just did a 14 day sunshine challenge just to get outdoors a little bit more. And that you could see it was just 14 days to try to give people a little quick win. And it did. It really impacted us.

47:20It's a good thing we just did. It's harder to do in winter, but now the girls are like saying, how do we want to do this again, but in winter? So that's the cool thing. I know, but I was just going to say the same thing. I'm like full of it, I'm full of it, hip hop or a theme because I'm getting up on the morning. It's sunny and my house faces the sun coming up. I go out with my coffee and listen to the birds. And I'm like, this is so easy. I could do this. I went to come, I could do the goal. I never leave in my house again. And I've tried and I just can't get it to work. So I'll listen to your hacks for the winter getting up. It's, I actually struggle from the seasonal effect of the thought it's sad. Yeah, it makes me sad. I think I'm just literally meant to live in a Caribbean island. I think that's the answer. I'm yet to make that work. Oh, come and Portugal. Portugal is a great place. Is that where you are? Are you in Portugal? Yeah, so in Portugal now, yeah. Well, that's an easy, that's an easy win for me. Actually, I spend a, I'm British. I spend a lot of, I'm going to the UK tomorrow for three weeks. I spend a lot of time in Europe and traveling too. So Portugal's a popular place for me. So next time I'm there, I'll come and say hello.

48:20Definitely, we've got a place for you. So listen, I wanted to ask you then, let's go into just one of the biggest myths that you see in this menopause space that you would like to bust. Oh my gosh. You know what? There's so many. And why don't we talk about one that's sort of a little bit controversial? And I'll try and talk about it in a way that sees the woman where she is because it's weekend. Waking is something that we, a lot of us see. It happens to a lot of us. And we often hear that women's metabolism is broken. Menopause comes along and this is a real grifter one or one. Menopause broke your metabolism. Here's my diet. He's my exercise protocol. What he's my supplements. And it's simply not true, but women do put weight on and they do change shape. And so something's happening. So what exactly is it? And we do know quite a lot. And I think that if we explain to women and give them some knowledge, that I think it can really take a lot of pressure off them. In my book, I called this chapter, Why Am I So Bloody Fat? And because I remember just looking at our end of the interval,

49:20why am I so bloody fat? I haven't done anything different. And this is what women say all the time. Nothing's changed. Nothing has changed. Why have I put weight on? So here's what we know from menopause. First of all, menopause specifically menopause, what it does losing at your hormones does not equal weight gain. They're not the same thing. Menopause does not mean you will put weight on because not every woman in menopause puts weight on, but a lot of women do. So what's happening? So a couple of things are happening when estrogen starts to decline. A few estrogen is in every system in our body. Every system, there's almost nothing gets to it. You just said, I think Andrea Donskie's survey showed she found 103 symptoms that women experience. And there's a ton of symptoms out there, every system in our body. One is our hunger hormone start to change. Grelin, our hunger hormone. And I always say Grelin's an easy one to remember because it sounds like grumbling and belly rumbling. The signals for Grelin start to change. So we're a little bit more hungry and never quite satisfied.

50:21So women's intake of food starts to slightly increase without them changing anything. And we are all as humans really bad at estimating how much food we're eating. We just are. We've got studies like forever showing how we always under report the food we eat. Sleep impacts our menopause impacts sleep and the knock on effective sleep is that we can wake up with more cravings and we become more sluggish. We potentially don't move as more. Activity definitely goes down in menopause. Women are struggling with symptoms. Chronic fatigue being one of them. How am I supposed to go off my five care runs, Laura, when I can barely get off the sofa to make a cup of tea? These add off over time and wake end doesn't just happen overnight. It happens slowly over time. Our fat deposits start to change for a lot of women, not all, but a lot of women. We start to hold fat around our midsection rather than our legs and our hips, which is more for the birthing body shape. And women cannot put weight on, but all of a sudden can't fasten their jeans because they've got like this mid-rift where the fat starts to shift. Having some fat on our body isn't a bad thing

51:23because it produces a very weak type of estrogen, so there's a lot happening with our body. So one of the first things I say to women is, know that you're going through menopause and things might start to change. You may be starting to eat more without realizing, move less, your hunger hormones are all over, your sleep's gone, you're tired. That might show up as work again. And stop resisting it, stop pretending it's not happened. Lean into menopause and accept that this is an essential part of life, it's going to happen. The alternatives, much worse, that you don't get the chance to go through it. And then know that there are things that you can do to help support your body through this. And where it lost might not be the first thing that I would recommend. It certainly wouldn't be if sleep is one of the main issues. Sleep's going to be the first thing you need to tackle. It's like the keystone of everything, right? And so I will just end this by saying that a calorie deficit still works across the edges. Energy balance literally means the amount of food that you bring in compared to what you use. And unless you're tracking it, it ounce by ounce and minute by minute, you're not going to have

52:24a true picture of what that looks like for you. And I personally never want to track anything. So part of it is like, how can you be more mindful about the food you eat and make better choices? How can I be more mindful about finding ways to get extra movement? And if I don't really quite feel like working out, don't be addicted to yourself find ways to support your body where you are right now. And then the other thing I would just say with regard to the initial thing about metabolism, Dr. Herman Ponser from Duke University who is the metabolism king in the US. Did this brilliant study that showed that our metabolism over our lifespan doesn't change very much at all. In fact, it only reduces down at the age of about 60 by 0.7%. So if you know that's giving you power back, that's telling you, men of course, haven't broken you. You don't need to be fixed, but shit just got really hard and you might need to give yourself a bit of a break. Honestly, I just feel like it's not the answer women want, but if calorie deficits didn't work, then GLP ones wouldn't work.

53:25Like calorie women can still lose weight in menopause and women can still build muscle. Nothing stops you doing that. It just gets much, much harder and it's a very nuanced conversation and it can feel really personal when women hear this but I've tried everything and it doesn't work, right? It's a difficult conversation to have. I remember I interviewed Dr. William Lee and he talked about that research as well and it was just like a record scratch what? Metabolism doesn't change their menopause because it's everyone's convinced and you just called me out. I had to rename my program the metabolism fix to something else because I'm in a group. I'm like, it's not, it just implies that something's broken and I don't want that. That's another reason I'm having you on. I want to learn from you because that's also, it's probably not what you're thinking. I'm not selling supplements or anything like that. And it's also confusing to what metabolism is, right? Like people hear the word metabolism without really truly understanding what it is. There are metabolic changes that happen through menopause like our metabolic systems, like our cholesterol can change,

54:26our insulin sensitivity can change. Our cortisol responses can change. There's so many different systems in the body that can be impacted by menopause that there are metabolic changes that an exercise program and a nutrition program can really support. So it's not that it's not right. As long as people aren't in the metabolism is broken, the programs that help support your metabolism are perfectly fine. That's not the conversation. It really is, the people that are saying that it is broken and it drops by like 25% or whatever. It's just factually not being supported. If you love this show, but you don't always have an hour to sit and listen, then you're gonna wanna check out the brand new YouTube channel I created called Hack My Age Clips. This is where you're gonna find all the best moments from every episode all in one place. Each one is about 10 minutes or even less. So if you wanna leave the deep dive for later, this is where you wanna go. And you can find it on the YouTube channel as Hack My Age Clips. The link to that is in the show notes

55:26in case you forget and don't forget to subscribe. And if you like a clip that you love, please send it to a friend who needs to hear it. Since we're on this sort of topic of metabolic health and you are trained in an exercise and nutrition, I think you went to their position of nutrition as I did as well. I did their program. Back in the day, I did precision nutrition. It's sort of like an industry standard nutritional coaching course. That was, I did that like 10 years ago. Like quite a long time ago, yeah. I almost had done it at the same time. Cause I also did it about 10 years ago. With John Barardi. John Barardi was the owner of that. Yeah, it was a great program. I thought it was really good. I learned a lot. It cleared up a lot of confusion for me. And there's still, there's still a lot of things that they do I think are pretty good. But since you're in this field now, and you work with a lot of women helping them with their weight, building muscle and getting bigger and all these things that I like to hear, what about, give us a couple, you gave them some tips. They're quite general. But what would a day look like for a woman when you say choose one thing to get you started

56:26in order to get your, I just more metabolically healthy? If I was to get somebody started with a quick one or one, here are some areas I would consider suggesting. First of all, cardiovascular health still matters. And I know women lean into cardio. Because we like it. And now we're here and all, you've got all strength training. The reason that everyone's pushing strength training is because we've already pushed cardio and you've already bought into it. Now we want you to buy into strength training. We want you to do both. And so the national standard, like the WHO standards, are 150 minutes a week of moderate cardiovascular health exercise or 75 minutes of vigorous. That's between 10 and 20 minutes of day of something that gets your heart rate going. Can you commit to doing that three times a week? Is that something you can do? Go out for a brisk walk. Like that's somewhere I would start someone from a cardio vascular standpoint. If they've never exercised before, if it's someone who's already committed to exercise, then I would just make sure that they could try working their heart rate into variable zones, like getting more out of breath working in an anaerobic place. Which is basically the point where you can't talk anymore

57:27with your exercising. It's not very nice. Strength training, the national recommendations are two times a week for at least 30 minutes. I'm like saying to you, where do you fit in on the spectrum there? Have you ever done strength training before? Or are you a seasoned athlete? So the lift heavy shit argument really doesn't work for the beginner. It's more someone who's been exercising a long time and really that message is just saying you have to work really hard. You've got to work hard enough for strength training to make a difference. It shouldn't tickle. But that can be your body weight, right? So can you do two times a week for 10 minutes or 20 minutes? Can you start? It's like looking at finding these exercise nuggets and snacks along the way that are going to be easy to fit into a busy day. Like today, I had no time. I was doing your podcast, another one. I had some bonkers. And I had literally had 20 minutes. I'm like, OK, I'm going to take that as a win. Look for those wins with your exercise that all counts. So that's what I would do from an exercise standpoint. Find either both of them or one of them

58:27do your cardiovascular for a few weeks or do your strength for a few weeks and then start combining them. See if you can commit to four to five times a week of 20 minutes exercise. Like it can be done. You can find ways to get movement in. From a nutrition standpoint, I would, I don't want protein to be a full-time job for anyone. But the big winners in nutrition and I'm talking, preaching to the choir here are adequate protein to support the lean muscle you're trying to build. About 100 grams of days, usually enough for most people. Don't stress too much about it, but look for it whenever you eat. Oh, can I get a bit of protein here and there? And fill up on lots of vegetables. Fruit doesn't make you fat. Fruit is lovely. It's full of antioxidants and fiber and water. So get that in your system. And that will help you get your fiber goals or pride because we need about 25 grams minimum fiber and most people take about 10. So if you have those, like as your men, view points for your food, you're on a really good starting point. And I wouldn't do much more from that point of view, truthfully, because that's a lot.

59:27And then if your sleep is out of whack, maybe just pull back from all of that and go, what are some things I could do just to feel like I can sleep better? And there's a ton of research out there. And that's a whole episode on it. So I'm sure you've had a sleep expert on, but even just trying to have a regular wake up time, like your sunlight challenge or a regular bedtime can make that happen a lot more easily as well. So there's some little starters. I like that. I have to wrap up. I can't believe I have so many more questions. I gosh, it's going to be hard to do. But do a part two another time. We'll do a part two another time. Let's do a part two. Let's do a part two. But before I let you go, I would like to know a little bit more about the stuff that's coming up in your world. You've got a platform, there's a new platform, some programs, what's tell us what's going on in your world. Oh, yes, thank you. It hasn't been launched yet. So I do, most of my work is in the workplace. I do lots of corporate talks, like educating people about menopause. That's mainly what I do now. But over the last year, built a digital platform called Spring. Spring Women's Health with a co-founded it with somebody else

1:00:29and a medical doctor. And essentially, it's just a place for women to go to get ultimate support through menopause. And it will run alongside any medical interventions you're doing. So within that, we have education. We have a doctor who is there all of the time answering questions, pointing you in the right direction. We have a guy to help you making the doctor's appointment successful. We have programs, nutrition, exercise, sleep, pelvic floor. We have, it's not everything's there. And it all stuck together with a community of women where we have experts coming. At live experts coming every week to help women. And so it's just literally a one-stop shop for menopause support. And it will be launched in September. I'm going to keep it very low cost. I really want it to be something that's accessible to people. I don't want people to be like struggling to pay for this. So anyway, so it's exciting. It's been a long time coming. I finally pulled my finger out and done it. Oh, that's so needed. I think it's apps. People are already in tune with apps now. And it's little reminders and check-ins. And we have a community in there too.

1:01:29Yes, there's a huge community component, yeah. Oh, what's the name? Or Nernal? It's called Spring. Spring. That's right. Spring. OK, coming out in fall. Yes. Yeah. Well, remember that. And actually, it's good because this podcast will probably launch in September too. OK, we can fall into spring. I just don't know what happened. It wasn't ready in spring. And so I'm just like, OK, I'll reframe fall to spring. That's fine. I don't care. When you have the link, when it's ready, send it to me. And we'll put it in the show notes as well. So people can find out more. And I'm just so grateful for your time. I know you have to go, but let's do a part two, because I do have some more questions. And you're just full of knowledge. And I like that. You're on top of the research. And you do advocate for women going through menopause, thinking a very healthy way. And I'd love to pick your brain again. So hopefully we'll see you again. Yeah, thank you, Zara. It was really great to speak to you. It was a lovely conversation. And it was really fulfilling for me, because I really love having conversations where, even if everything isn't aligned, it's a very wholesome conversation and respectful. And I know that you have the best intentions

1:02:30for all of your followers. So thank you very much for having me on. Oh, thank you. And thank you, everyone, who's listened to the very end. And we wouldn't be here without you. So please share this episode if you think it's useful for someone who could really benefit from it. So have a good day, good night. Good morning, wherever you guys are at. And we'll see you next time. Hey, did you enjoy the podcast? Don't forget to subscribe to be notified of all the new episodes. And leave a review to help build the tribe. It's a small act of kindness that brings me big benefits and helps others find this amazing content. The best thing you can do is share. Sharing is caring. Statements made on this podcast have not been evaluated by the US Food and Drug Administration. Anything we say or products we mention are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Information provided by this podcast is not a substitute for personal medical advice and not intended to replace a one-on-one relationship with a qualified healthcare professional. It is intended as a sharing of knowledge and information from the personal research experience of me and my guests.

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