Manchester City - What happens next?

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2:07to help Manchester City conquer English football. The Independent Commission's judgement did not pull any punches. City are guilty of cheating on a scale unprecedented in the history of British football. But what now? We will be discussing that and all the latest developments in this huge story with the Chief Sports correspondent for the Times Matt Lotton and in the second half of the show with the Times Chief Football correspondent Jonathan Northcroft. Johnny is just back from Prague and will hopefully find a bit of time to talk about England too. But first of all, it's great to have you on Matt. You've worked on this story from the beginning and you've got a big story which has just gone live on the Times website which is a fascinating development. But first of all, your reaction to the last few days and the scale of cities cheating. Yeah, now it's been staggering because while we've, you know, we've obviously been waiting 19, 20 months for the decision, I don't really think anyone imagined it would be quite so comprehensive in its, in the level to which Manchester City have been found guilty.

3:11It's extraordinary and I've spent a lot of my career trying to expose cheating. You know, I do believe that as journalists we have a part to play in trying to protect the integrity of sport. And this is massive. This is as big as anything we've seen. Certainly the biggest story in the history of English football. The repercussions are just, you know, the potential repercussions are just so massive. You know, we've got the Prime Minister now getting involved worried about the impact it could have on the UK economy. If the Abidharbe owners sort of picked up their ball and went home and I say that as someone who lives in Manchester, you know, I've seen the positive impact. I worked on that side of Manchester when I got my first job in National Papers back in the mid-sutth mid-90s. I worked in Angcoats at the Daily Express and the transformation of that part of the city is remarkable. And a lot of that is down to these owners. So I kind of know where the Prime Minister is coming from on this.

4:13But at the same time, if city fail with their appeal, if they are found guilty of this level of cheating, you know, beyond any doubt, in the view of an appeal commission as well, then yeah. It's as bad as anything we've ever seen in sport. Tell us a bit about the story that's just gone live on the Times website. Manchester City sponsor Eddie had threatens legal action against Premier League. That's the headline on the piece on the Times website. This is a new development. So tell us. Yeah, this statement contacted by the airline earlier. This statement came in this evening, broken all the times at 80 clock. As we know, Eddie had are the principal sponsors of Manchester City, hundreds of millions of pounds, naming rights for the stadium, some the kit, training ground. They are a massive part of the success story that has been managed to city. They're also an extremely big airline worth billions and billions of pounds.

5:14Obviously, one of the central planks of the accusations leveled at city by the commission is the fact that they had the share. They had the sham sponsorship agreements. And that they use them to they used the owners money. You know, these these sponsorship deals were inflated by the owners personal wealth. And they cut the books, if you like, to the tune of 900 million to enable them to spend the money on the players that ultimately have dominated English football for the last 10, 15 years. Now, while no specific sponsors were named in the 40 page decision that was published on Tuesday, the fact of the matter is quite clearly implies that the Eddie had deals among these deals that they they they they described as a sham agreement. And Eddie had the seeming have objected to that and objected to the idea that they've been involved in any kind of irregular activity.

6:15So they have not only challenged the view of the commission, this independent commission that's found city guilty of this. They've also objected to the fact they say that they were never contacted to give any evidence or give their side of the story at any point in the process. And finally, but most importantly, they've threatened legal action against the Premier League. So no, it's a big moment. Premier League have declined to comment this evening, but no, I think it's pretty significant. Are Eddie had always stayed on? They are stay owned. Yeah, they are stay owned airline. And as I say, Gregor, they are claiming that they have not been part of some kind of sham agreement, some kind of accounts and see irregularities to inflate cities revenue streams so that they could buy more plates. They're they're they're fiercely rejecting that in their statement. It's it's very strongly worded. And so this is a kind of intriguing part of this too is that when you saw the levels of commercial revenue that were genuine for one of a better words.

7:20And then they're greatly inflated. There are a lot of grass published in the times that you see the tiny fraction of genuine review. And then the huge inflation inflated amount. Part of these things, this is actually all coming from the same source anyway. So what what is the these are still major. If if it was a state owned, how does that dynamic work? Well, it's a great question, but it's the kind of questions that we were all asking when the guitarries were looking to buy managed United and we were saying, well, how hang on, how does that work? Where, you know, when they also own PSG and they would they would argue that there were different different families, different pot of money. So look, I think the thing is it is state owned, Eddie had Airways, the distinction that you could obviously make from what we can see now is that is that what city are accused of here is actually that it's the Abu Dhabi United group that is the parent company owned by shape man, which owns master city.

8:23It was their money and not s e had money, the state owned money that was that was put into this inflating this sponsorship deal. So so there is a distinction that can be made. And because that's the key distinction that is being made by by the commission itself that this wasn't s e had money, it wasn't the government's money. It was shak man su as money essentially. And you referenced a moment earlier about the other story on the Times website tonight, Andy Burnham, I don't want to lose city owners, they help build modern manche after you spoke about about that. That's kind of an early sort of signpost to some of the political site, political, political forces that could possibly be at play in this story as well. And it spreads far and wide. It does. I think it I think it it just shows the sheer enormity of this story. It on so many levels, it's so big. I don't there's anyone out there that doesn't believe that if they you know if by the end of this process, they are guilty that there are peel fails and a sanction is handed out.

9:35There is anyone that doesn't think that this is the sanction has to be severe for that kind of industrial level of cheating because the end of the day, I know what ruddery said the other day, I know what Joe Hart has been saying. Yes, those play it and you will empathize as much as anybody Gregor is next professional footballer. Yes, they all though the 11 guys on the pitch, they all played football and and they played brilliant football and they won the game at the facts of the matter is what ruddery needs to understand is you might not have as such good players to pass to if they haven't had such resource to build the team in the first place. Everyone gets that but the but way it against that are lots of concerns Andy Burnham is as sort of cited one this evening, which is a potential impact not just to the Manchester economy, but to the UK economy, you know, like you got two flights a day that come into Manchester airport and to have flights every day.

10:35I've no idea how much that is worth, but I imagine it's worth quite a lot of money. Then as you say you've you've got the me a fact that they've pumped all this money into the UK economy, you know, in Manchester and into the football club, you know, I was actually watching one of my daughters play football tonight and watching as well was an auntie of one of her friends who plays for Burnley. You know, and she is we were actually talking about it she has been a beneficiary of this incredible sports medical center that's in Manchester that's next door to the Etihad that you know people like Keely Hodgkin's the news, any Oscar in the deer's cycling team use. He has one of the best medical sports facilities in the world. They built that. Okay, there was there was some there was some city money and and other investors, but a lot of that money came from from Abu Dhabi. So you've got that to consider. I also think that as much as and Richard Masters has kind of made his you know his position very clear in that statement and I admired the way that he sort of put his head

11:41out the parapet there and it didn't just hide behind a Premier League statement or or the commission's decision, you know, he actually added his own voice to this to this situation yesterday, which I thought showed quite sort of bold leadership. But the Premier League is a brand the Premier League is one of the great sort of UK exports and if the punishment is so severe that basically master city disappears down the leaves and never returns and all the players leave and and what has been there for all these years will this brilliant football just never comes back. Well, the Premier League is any going to be poorer for it. So I think there's a lot and the damage that does the reputation the Premier League is probably already damaged, but you know we did spend weeks at the World Cup and a lot of the narrative around that was about the growth of soccer football in America, the fact that the Premier League.

12:42Both sort of you got 40 odd million Americans watching Premier League football every season they've opened offices in Manhattan they want to grow the brand of the Premier League they want it to be in already years, but they want to they want to continue to build on it being the most popular league in the world. And this is this whole thing as much as it is important to go through this process as much as it is important to punish anybody that cheats in sport the damage and the potential ramifications. Yeah, just extend beyond the comprehension. I think of any of us really because we really know where it's going to end. But on that kind of train of thought what would you see it feels to me that it would be actually to harden the bit towards city since this decision since the independent commission's decision was was revealed that you know there probably was a bit of the things you're talking about the damage reputation into the Premier League should be weighed up against the sort of severity of the punishment. But when this is all being laid out and black and white, does it feel to you from people you're speaking to that maybe actually to harden the bit and haven't said all that you can't have them in the Premier League.

13:49Yeah, no, as I say, look, if this ends, if you know, if that if Citi are unsuccessful in their appeal, then yeah, as I say, I can't sit here as a journalist that pursues people who cheat for a living and think they shouldn't have the book thrown at them that would be insane. I think it would be betraying my own views, principles, you know, so no, and I'm not saying that, you know, that we should consider these factors before handing out a sanction that we should be worried about the my point is that we we shouldn't let that other stuff influence what should be the right punishment. I do wonder whether it will do I do wonder whether Andy Burnham coming out the way he has might actually impose some kind of pressure like who knows what kind of conversations to go on in the background, Gregor, the conversations that as journalists, we're just not party to. You know, there'll be all sorts of pressures here. Yeah, it's it's it's it's just a huge situation because you can't deny that you know the relationships that this country has with the different countries in the Middle East, you can't deny that they are important and valuable.

15:01I just think there will be an awful lot of nervousness around that and it's it's yeah it's just as I say the imports of this goes way beyond the sort of boundaries of that Premier League table. It's so much bigger because of the people involved well other interesting things are cities that is the statement by difficult in the independent football regulator. We seem to be leaving the door that the judge leaving the door a jar to judging whether she man's who is better proper and you know that a lot of calls to strip strip strip the owner of the football club. What do you make of that and that development that's also obviously independent football regular later as a fairly recent phenomenon. It kind of gives another it's another weapon in the arsenal perhaps. What I do look look the independent regulator has been created to have that kind of power is been given you know the power to remove owners by the government because there's been a recognition because of some of the horror stories.

16:05We've seen it out football clubs over the years because they're so important to our communities our cities that they need more protection because the fact is they can times be vulnerable to to bad owners to rogona's and and this is not just at the top level you know money laundering in the lower leagues. You know the clubs used as vehicles for all sorts of criminality so it was really important that the IFR was created and they do have that power you know in the same way that they you know that they might be able to force a shareholder to sell their shares or whatever they they could indeed make an intervention at the end of this process as I say if city fail if a sanction is in their appeal if a sanction is handed out. And the conclusion is that you know the guilty verdict remains that these guys broke the rules to such a massive extent to become successful in the Premier League and in the Champions League.

17:11Then yeah I think it's I think it's inevitable that the IFR will remove these owners you know from Manchester City but it comes back again to what Andy Burnham was saying tonight so you've got the government created this body they gave him the power to do that but then you got the prime minister saying like I can't really get involved but I'd hate to see them go so again it's just all these different factors all these different forces at play you know at some point it will be a lot of work. We'll all play out once we've had this sanction hearing once we've had the appeal hearing and then we'll have a better idea where we are I do think it's really it will be really interesting to see you know for and sorry I know saying yesterday that this that the Premier League cases built on one I see you know a single false accusation we need to see what that is you know we we need to see you know you've had Pep Guardiola come out today and say I stand by these guys I stand by my own or I stand by my own.

18:11And I'm not going to stand by Manchester City they're all being told quite clearly that they believe they've got a strong case that they can win an appeal because it would be nuts if actually they haven't got a leg they know they haven't got a leg to stand on when they're persuading people like sorry I know and Pep Guardiola and and the chairman Caldune goes you know gives his statement on Saturday if this is all built on an attempt to try and claim it's there's a technical issue or there's or you know they took too long there for it's unsafe they they must have more than that it'd be fascinated to see what they come back with. Just finally I mean do you do you don't think that even if that were the case and they were to get get off on a tent of quality we're kind of move beyond that if he was like there's a welter of information now that demonstrates that this is cheating on an industrial scale and there's not really any coming back from it even if you were to get find a legal loophole. Yeah if it if it's a technicality in the court public opinion I don't know anyone cares and and certainly the view of the commission is that you know they've clearly so far dismissed all their arguments because it's it was so comprehensive you know it however you know hundred plus charges found guilty you know it's it did a massive result and as I say as I said right the start I don't any of a send I think because the way that they're going to be a

19:36legal battle over the associate party transactions played out where it ended up as a bit of a score draw you city one some of it the Premier League what other bits of it I think we thought it would be a bit more evened out and I think the sort of the more skeptical were you know I had conversations over the last year where people were predicting without any intel you know without any real insight but predicting that they'd get you know they'd get a slack risk from an cheating. Double salary and and for lack of cooperation but they'd get cleared on on the more substantive charges it's not been the case they've been hammered on the substantive charges so yeah as I say I did not expect the outcome that we we learned of on Friday and I certainly didn't expect it to be quite so damning in the language you know it was it was words like shaham it was explosive stuff yesterday I breast take it out and I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it. Thank you really I think you sort of my sort of 30 old years in journalism it yeah there's been some there's been some seismic moments but that's as big as any that statement yesterday when I thought was just extraordinary.

20:50Thank you very much for joining us and you can see Matt's brilliant journalism on the times website along with Martin Zeegler and you call him from Martin Samuel talking about the fact that it takes if it takes a billion pounds of cheating to win the league our game has a big problem a co-ascating call him by Matthew side as well on the pep gaudiola and much much more so go to the things website for all the latest we'll be back after the break they talk to Jordan Northcroft see that. Welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and Sunday times I'm Gregor Robertson and I'm delighted to know be joined by Jonathan Northcroft just arrived back on British soil from Prague. I'm going to discuss a story that's overtaken all of England and England say actions on the pitch over the international break Johnny I think the first question to ask is we know this has been we knew I was new this was going to be big but somehow the scale of cities cheating and also the tone of the independent commissions report and the words used is still been shocking really is that the way you've been is that your reaction to.

22:13It's a very much so and it was also you know is the reaction in the press box last night in in Prague you know there with a number of the sort of leading writers on other papers as well and look this is something is strange feeling because it's it's a story that we all knew was coming it's a story we all knew was going to be big and it's a rare case that when it actually breaks it's it's even bigger than you thought I think the scale of the fences are way bigger than I think any of us had imagined and the way that they're out there. I think the way that I've outlined in the judgment there's there's figures put on the scale of this this cheating deception and and the fact that it amounts to touch your over 900 million pounds that just the figures shock you I find you're right about the language Gregor I think the reaction to that's been interesting and maybe maybe slightly misunderstood because the judgment is using words like sham uses sham a lot.

23:13It's honest not acting in good faith and in some quarters this has been interpreted as the Premier League reacting emotionally towards Manchester City and you know I read look at them they're really trying to stick the knife in city with this language and that's a misunderstanding because this isn't the Premier League's judgment this is an independent panels judgment these are three K C's and it's their language it's not the Premier League's language. And when you look at a term like sham which is a very strong word but it's actually a legal term it's a defined legal term which wouldn't be used without legal basis you know and a sham in legal terms is it's an arrangement or a document that is being created to intentionally deceive that that's that's a pretty that's a pretty big thing but it's a strict legal definition and I read the full judgment or the judgment that's available to us. On the plane back this morning and I've read a number of these judgments over the years from the Everton and the forest to some of the the disciplinary cases like Louis Suarez of racism cases and I've always liked looked at these judgments and been slightly

24:27taken a back at how loose they tend to be the language you always think as a journalist you think it's a right turn you go oh that needs editing because if you've repeated themselves there and the done this this judgment is different this is really this is written a very cold focused tight way it's actually quite brief the judgment that said they I know 40 pages doesn't sound brief but it is if you read these other judgments and I think it's it's attempting to be as laser focused as possible. Because they know that Manchester City are going to try and appeal everything so you know a word at a place in this judgment is something that Manchester City could try and seize on so I come back the fact that when when you've got three top cases talking about dishonesty talking about a sham talking about what they call a disguised funding scheme that's how they turn Manchester these arrangements to hide their ownership funding that was going in the club. I mean these are the this is big stuff the fact that the putting putting out there quite so boldly it's not emotional this is what bases the severity of these offenses and that's bull me over as much as anything that and the figures it really hits home to you that however grave we thought this was it's it's probably it's probably bigger and worse welcome to what this means for the Premier League and what the possible shot the sanctions might be or you think we should be in a moment I just want to.

25:56What you've made of sickies response means maybe so parents are you know the status which seem remarkable is talking about conspiracy theories still talking about yeah it's irrefutable evidence that is not being actually made clear this is a video where the this is a video where the man doesn't blink for two minutes and 30 seconds. Yes, yeah, that's me. I mean I mean come on I found it weird actually I did find that that was a sort of just a weird video to be to be honest in tone and in content and and and I think one thing that's quite dangerous as he talks about opinion this this is a judgment by by three Britain stop lawyers. So to go down the road of saying the elders in opinion against us that that's undermining the process I in my mind that's that's undermining trust in British law in the Premier League rules that they've signed up to and I think that's really disingenuous I'm not surprised that the the the the fact that you're sticking however to their to their guns I think I told you can do.

27:00I also that's what I'd expect them to do they've been robust the whole way through this they have done that partly in order to I think keep the fan base energized and motivated and the messaging's all about you know we've been through worse and we'll come through this again and find fair enough that's what football clubs do they exist to rally communities of people into tribes Pep Guardiola's added to it you know I'm here for you city family will always be there will get through together great you know great and I don't have anything against city fans. They they they've stuck together and the people in charge of their club with asking them to do that once again but there's nothing in those city responses that I think shifts the dial is nothing material factual there's nothing that points to something that's been missed I think the original statement tried to cast try to insinuate it might not be a fair process which again's undermining things but I think that's not the right thing to do is to get the right thing.

28:00You know the top of the refutable evidence well that evidence was put to the panel and the panel haven't found it a few to pull a tall so you can keep saying look at I know I know I'm in prison for you know whatever but I've got a few to be evidence that I'm not guilty fine fine me in prison so I haven't seen anything that makes me it definitely appeal but there's done anything that makes me think that there's a big there's a big rabbit that they can pull out that. I'm on a factual basis that might change everything I think what they will do clearly is is continue to try and challenge the process and maybe the sanction once it comes out. Well, if pep got the older then he's he's also released a short statement on social media today on Wednesday as we were called I went every single man city fan to know I am here more than ever I am always have been always will be behind my club my owner my chairman Ferran the player staff and so and you are unique supporters let me be clear we will get through this together I love you all you also wrote a piece for the ST we can about our three frames guard you all as greatness potentially what you know it's spoken in the past as well about the day he finds out he's been lied to he's gone he's already gone and he's still backing up his former employer yeah it does look and I'm Matthew sides written a very strong piece yes it's the son of a site you know says

29:29pep grady or great manager of all time do me a favor and the piece I wrote on Sunday was just trying to ask really ask what we've been watching all these years and what does it mean for how we view the players involved and pep grady all that I wrote that with no pleasure whatsoever I think pep grady is irrespective of what's happened at Manchester City one of the very greatest managers of all time there's he's changed the game of football he did that a Barcelona and by minute before you know we even set foot in England and we saw with our own eyes the football he played at Manchester City so that that exists you know I've spoken to him of listen to him for years that exists but what has changed is our ability to to judge what he was doing against the people he was doing it against I likened it to seeing an amazing formula one driver but then discovering that the car that he's been driving has been you know illegally modified to give him an advantage on everybody else so then you kind of think was he that much better than the guy that was second you have to question you have to actually you know I don't think you can accept the achievements of Manchester City in the period that they've been found guilty of cheap I just don't

30:48think logically you can just shrug and go yeah fine fine you know I mean they cheated but they're still champions in the suiter you know and I again I say that when I play it's a mess you don't want to sort of but astrophytals or strip titles out but I just don't see how logically you can say that they have the same value anymore and that then then logically that means does does what pep grady all I did have the same value still a great coach but how can we judge him let's say for judging me against Alex Ferguson and his his titles against his titles well what do we count what pep's done and as I say I feel I feel sad about that because it's somebody I massively am I I don't want want this to be the case you know and I don't it has Pep bring light to did he know I don't know that that's not in the judgment I think it's wrong to speculate about that it's unfair and pep grady all at this point to speculate about that but is he can we say that is achievements in in England are worth what we thought they were a week ago no we can't that takes us bring this on to what happens next and perhaps

31:58what the sanctions may be I mean fuels that I feel the little bit you know taking the temperature since this decision has been as being announced you know the full detail of it the attitudes of hardened a little bit you know is a point seduction enough should they just be expelled should even perhaps as owners lot has written and another column in the things we have say she mansorby stripped of the club stripped of Manchester City has been the clubs owner and I will shoot you as well that David Cogan the independent people regulator has released a statement on that today as well saying that the independent commission's decision raises serious issues the IFR has powers to assess the suitability of owners directors and executives and we will use these powers were appropriate in the interests of protecting sustainability honesty and integrity of English football where there is clear evidence of wrongdoing by individuals so you know he seems to have opened that door yes very much where do you stand yeah I mean well start with David Cogan that was

32:58interesting statement it was it was it was a signal of of intent to to get involved in this one supremially processes over and and he reminded us in that statement of his his duty to try and protect the integrity of English football so clearly a time where the regulator has tightened up the fit and proper persons test in terms of who's allowed to invest in clubs logically he will so be stiffening up who's allowed to be in charge and run clubs and by and by the way when you look at the detail of the the judgment if it's upheld again logically I don't see how I'm and by this is redacted a lot of it so you don't know which individuals it's referring to certain points there's a reference to somebody being dishonest don't know who it is you you read that you can't you can't conclude that that or the conclusion's got to be that some of the people involved can't run a football club in future because that because of the scale of the deception

34:00and and the cheating terms of what happens again I come back to the fact that we need to understand what the processes here and the process is quite a narrow focused process involving a panel and three KCs they will make the judgment what we think you know what we think is good for English football or what's morally right that doesn't really matter these people will make the judgment and they will try and come up with a proportional judgment that is not going to be a good example judgment that that that that I guess can't really be challenged because I mean again Manchester City are likely to appeal so they'll be thinking we have to make this fair and unchallengeable the prime the prime I think I'm saying that the Premier League will make a recommendation not to the party that's correct the Premier League will make a recommendation and that's what happened in the Everton and not for his case and the panel will the panel will then go off precedent and the difficult look the difficult here is there's no there's no precedent for nine years and you know like I don't know let's take not on forest 4 million for sorry 4.0.2.335 million pounds worth of PSR breaches

35:13they could have also bridge that gap if it's all brilliant Johnson a couple of weeks earlier in the front you know the answer window yeah yeah really really small details of the details yeah and and and in their case there's no suggestion there was a you know as it is here that there was a there's a sham there's a deliberate attempt to mislead or anything like that you know Everton I think was ended up being six points for 20 million not all the 900 million pounds would be treated as a PSR breach because some of it is a period before PSR existed some of it not all you know this is all extra sponsorship or extra sorry or extra enough funding but it's not the same as the in fact the judgment says they they need to resubmit their accounts effectively look we can safely say we're going to be talking about something hundreds of millions over the PSR thresholds you know aggregated over a number of years and I do you do the math based on let's say

36:14for us then you get you get near 100 points but that's only that is only part of the case the PSR bits only part of the case the payments to manchini's contract that were off the fortune scheme which was used an image rights scheme that brought into question the non corporation with the Premier League the the break of your a for rules is the so many other layers to this and reading the Premier League rules you know there's a lot of what there's a lot of options available to the panel beyond points deductions and fines expulsion is one of them suspension is one of them there's a kind of any other business anything else you see fit to do it's on chart and territory but I do think that any idea that this is going to the Premier League are going to try and work out something that's going to be good for everyone good for them they might make a recommendation but they want they don't have the power to actually impose the the penalty will be you'll be the panelists

37:14Johnny I'm going to chat I'm going to channel my inner Tom Clark and see what if you were on the panel what would be your earlier colors to the man what would what do you think would be a fear yeah well okay I I I certainly I certainly don't think they can play in the Premier League next season and I'm probably beyond but I'm kind of now getting into other complexities like so does that mean that they just have to go into the football league what I would the F L feel about that I certainly think some sort of suspension or barring from the competition for the period of time has to be a route I think this has to be a huge financial route in terms of paying cost and compensation to the well pink legal costs compensation is another matter that's not for the panel are going to decide that'll be courts of law courts of law or or Premier League but yeah like I saw my thing I can't play in the Premier League for a period of time and and I would strip the titles I just think you have to I just think that's not even a punishment that's just logic I wouldn't as I say I wouldn't be doing that to in any way yeah get even punish that's just that's just being logical I just don't I think in the record books you can't count by the way I'm talking about the title

38:30in this period because there's also a misconception that you don't have to wipe out all the subsequent titles that that's that all other kettle of fish with arguments on both sides but let's focus on this period OK well I'm sure this is a certain this is a story who I can be returning to for a long time to come it's quickly joining me and you've been in this industry a long long time can you can you think of a bigger story and certainly in Premier League history no not not in Premier League history I think in obviously I don't Martin Ziegler has broken you know super league super league might be feels like it was as big in some ways because you took me the global game and by the way whatever happens now English football continue Premier League will continue Manchester City will continue they've got incredibly loyal supporters who didn't sign up to support that club because they were you know in search of glory every year that's not the contract from unsettied fan they'll back the club so whereas something like super league was an existential threat and and in a way so so's the big fee for sell off

39:33in terms of story it's going to run on now that because because those other examples that a fairly quick time frame that this is this we're going to be I might be we might be discussing the story for in this podcast in two or three years time you know Craig long ago we've already been speaking about for eight years so I know great great way to know I know anyway before we do a rap I'm Johnny let's talk about England shall we sell football yeah yeah there's no doubt no doubt what the main talking point was from England's one against the ten ten mancheter republic is often the main talking point when you're not in the team too but it was Trent Alexander Arald and he was the the focus because of a moment that breach nothing we describe in your matchup or as England's old nemesis the low block the moment of magic the Trent trend produced and became all about him yeah I mean I also talked to the report about Trent Bingo it was it was Trent Bingo last night it really was and I like the lane as well let me say quickly where you said after he'd seemingly vexed

40:37through call you whipped out a notebook to scribble furiously was it a love heart and circling the words based James to go is that probably yeah did undoubtedly I mean it was amazing watching we're in great position in this press box in the for tuna arena which was just right on top of where the the small stadium and it's kind of on top of where the technical areas are so I've watched to cool a lot I mean he went through everything with Trent there was a there's an early sort of point where the chalaba misplaced ahead and Trent maybe you know maybe a more robust defensive player would have won the ball back but he couldn't and took a shake in his head there was a moment on edge of the box where Tukal wanted Trent to do the thing he'd been programmed to do and look for a sack on the outside of play across and Trent had his own ideas as he always does and decided to to play back and you could see Tukal sort of going through it all and then of course the wand comes out and he just produces that moment of of it was quality but it was also a vision it was the two

41:40together it was it was it was instantly seeing that Gordon could make a run to the spot he was going to make and then in that moment understanding exactly the right trajectory of of course which you know was a really difficult want to play fast sort of bent around the defenders and just about set up for Gordon and very few players could even do that technically let alone see it and he can do both so I also described Trent as Marmite I think I think that's just the the way of things um you either love him or you hate him I love him I'm a glass half full person when it comes to football as a prefer to look at what they can do rather than what they can't do and I've watched England enough against low-gluck teams I've watched England enough laboring in games I don't think England always have the best ball players on the pitch I think they go for physicality sometimes or good soldiers who will do all the tactics the way they've been programmed to but Trent gives you that

42:44that's something different and it worked for England last night actually defensively he was fairly sound as well I thought he could see him trying his heart out and then of course Tuckle is fairly lukewarm a bit of afterwards because that's remarkable yeah he's asked the question about how could anyone else play that ball and anyone else make that finish you know but go or something like that it was like you just you know you know you determine to turn away from any you know what it made me think of it made me think of where we were with Jude Bellingham a year ago where no matter what Jude did Tuckle would find a way to burst the balloon just a little bit but I know you see you know what it is with him he loves his brotherhood right he talks about this this sort of the importance of the squad and the vibes and stuff it took Jude's months to kind of you know it was not you need to prove his ability on the pitch it took him months just to prove that he could be one of the brothers and now Tuckle can't get enough of him he talks about him in the most glowing terms and I think for Trent you know it's not going to be getting the wand out and playing

43:50a couple of brilliant balls it will be showing over a period of time that he's one of the brothers and that you know he can do the the hard stuff for the team when it counts and all that kind of thing that Tuckle Tuckle loves but I was really pleased for Trent because throughout his long strange England career where he's never been valued really and apart from him by Lee Carlsley he's always wanted to play for England he's always wanted to turn up he's always wanted to be there and you can't say that but everyone says nice sim rewarded okay look Johnny I don't think we've got time to talk about Stefan and Parker nor Lee oh never worry I start to take another time Gregger another time yeah another one of you sitting in this chair I can just say just to move on not Tuckle it's going so the creation Saturday of course and then with the return match against the chair public on Tuesday hopefully we'll speak be able to speak to Johnny about all of that and more as the latest developments emerge about this remarkable story involving Manchester City you

44:51can catch up with all of that all the latest on the time's website Johnny thank you very much for joining me see you on Monday at PWC we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible from blueprint to breakthrough we take you further with tech so you can out think out pace and outperform PWC so you can PWC refers to the PWC network and all one or more of its member firms each of which is a separate legal entity this is the story of the one as a shipping manager he's running the dock stocking supplies and making sure every order goes out on time and Granger helps him stay prepared from shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools he counts on Granger to keep products moving and trucks rolling so his operation runs smoothly no matter the shift

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