Love Is Freedom: Yung Pueblo on Lasting Relationships

0:00In the rock bottom moment when I almost lost my life because of you know, I put too many drugs in my body. What became really clear was I got here because I was lying to myself. It's almost like I was seeking a fake piece when I would take, you know, enough mixture of like marijuana, alcohol, and cocaine, all of them together were create like, really pleasant sensations in the body. Afterwards, my mind would feel chaotic, but very temporarily, there was like some semblance of pleasure. It just didn't lead to anything, like it didn't lead to like the real piece that I was looking for. Diego Perez, the writer, millions know as young quablo. Number one, New York Times best-selling author of Lighter, How to Love Better, and most recently, Journey, his new year-long guide to self-awareness. And were you able to simulate or mimic that sensation to some degree as you began to discover meditation and exploration now I learn something even better. So I learned that my piece is not in any sensation.

1:01It's in this very sort of subtle space where I'm not rejecting anything, I'm not suppressing anything, but I'm also not rolling in it. I'm not like letting myself just be taken away by whatever emotions happening. Instead, there is so much peace in just observing. It's not easy, sometimes fear comes up. But whatever it is, I can observe this quality of impermanence in the sensation and that helps in the letting go and in the letting go and the release of that tension, there's a lot of peace. Diego, great to be with you. Yeah, thank you, Jeff. Thank you for having me again. Yeah, so I'm interested in having a conversation around, you know, how we can love better. Thank congratulations, by the way. Yeah, thank you so much. It's written another fantastic book. And we share commonality in terms of our relationships with our respective others. Yeah. Goes back many, many years. Totally. I think I met my wife in college, freshman year in college.

2:05And I think you and Sarah met her early on. So I'm interested in exploring how we can love better. And also, even though the book isn't specifically about the interrelationship between Buddhism and love, you mentioned a lot of terminology within the course of the book that of course tickles my Buddhist nature. Oh, absolutely. So it's definitely the backdrop of everything that I do. And it's interesting because I feel like I try to walk this line of, you know, I don't want to be teaching Buddhism through the books that I'm writing. I feel like it's better learned on the cushion. Um, meditating, but I, it's undeniable that what I've learned from meditating has impacted the way I see life, the way I interact with reality and how I show up in my relationship. Absolutely. I mean, I, I tend to overlay my spiritual proclivities on top of virtually every

3:09decision that I make in my life, like certainly on politics, for example. Yeah. You know, I was seeking out the middle way, for example. But, you know, this recognition of impermanence, the, the recognition of the need to let go or to find the middle path. These are very useful for relationships or really any aspect of life. So yeah, I think that's something that shocks me about the Buddha's teaching, like the, the more deeply I delve into meditating and even like taking time to, you know, look over the sutras, like there are these universal laws that are there, whether you want to call it Buddhism or not, right, where like everything in the universe is always changing. Like impermanence is just predominant. It's just a law that's there. And if you get attached, your mind is going to feel a lot of tension. If you're going to be grabbing and craving or hating things and, you know, demanding reality to exist in a very specific way, you're going to cause

4:12yourself a lot of trouble. Yeah. And this is where it's dangerous to conflate Buddhism with religion. Right. Where really most of the tenets of Buddhism are really just deep reflections of representations of reality. It's interesting too, because the Buddha's teaching does have a, you know, a big space for morality that's very important because this, the anchoring of morality, where, you know, not lying, not killing, not stealing, not taking intoxicants and so forth, it stabilizes the mind, right, so that you can build concentration and then gain wisdom. But even when you look at the Buddha's teaching, he was really just, you know, I found the way out of suffering. Do you want to learn it? Yeah. Yeah. Right. And psychology as much as I know. That's not how I think about it. When I think about the Buddha and his teaching, I'm like, he understood the mind better than any other human in history. And we have a lot of different sort of modalities,

5:13but when it comes to the ending of suffering, I've found no other sort of clear way that is that direct. Yeah. And if you look at some of the central tenets, like this impermanence, for example, yes, you can come to that through revelation or through intuition, but you can also study human biology and open up the hood of your physiology and all you see is change. And all you see is atoms experiencing billions upon billions of chemical reactions every millisecond. So in many ways, a lot of these metaphysical truths are underwritten by actually just studying physical, physical reality. It's true. And it's interesting because like we all understand change at the intellectual level. Like we know that things are, they don't stay the same. They're going to change at some point. But there's something very different when you literally practice experiencing change directly, like literally getting to feel the change that's happening in your body.

6:16And I've been noticing that more and more like as I keep meditating that all I'm doing is I'm sitting down, I'm closing my eyes and I'm doing the direct opposite of attachment. I'm just embracing change. And when I think about like what is attachment, it's clinging. What's the opposite of that? It's allowing the flow to happen, allowing the change to be there. And is that does that occur within kind of body, skin, meditation? The Fapasana practice that I I'm in the Uba Ken Gowanka tradition and I've really found a home there. But it's just really focused in on the sensations. And really you get like the four foundations of mindfulness, you see how the mind changes, you see how everything changes, but anchored in sensations. Yeah. And that experience of experiencing your body as change, for example, really, it does seem to violate some intuition of Diego or Jeff as a stable, reliable self.

7:22For sure. It kind of underwritten often by a psychological and physiological continuity, more or less is like Diego woke up. That's morning, he looked at himself in the mirror, it was more or less the same. He's more or less having the same thoughts. We're anchored to this sense of self through this degree of continuity. But then of course, when you experience yourself as change, that that idea begins to dissipate a bit. It does. And it loosens the attachment to having a static sense of identity. I have appreciated that so much because it's just honestly giving me freedom, freedom to grow, freedom to recognize mistakes, freedom to like sort of much more intentionally design who I am. And it's something that I really love from Lady Sairda's teaching. So Lady Sairda is sort of the precursor of this, you know, when you think about like the mindfulness movement, you can go all the way back to the early 1900s in Burma, where there was this monk who

8:23he was the first monk to give the teaching to a layperson and then allow this layperson sciatet to start teaching, like gave him the ability to start teaching. And what's one of the powerful things that he said is like, if you say, I exist, you're not lying. If you say, I don't exist, you're not lying. And these two truths exist together, right? They're not in competition of each other. They don't stop each other. But both things are just true. It's like, yeah, you know, Diego and Jeff are having a conversation. But when I close my eyes, I can feel how my body is just giant series of vibrations. It's just all vibrating so quickly. And if I were to say, oh, is this vibration Diego or is that vibration Diego? It would already be gone, right? So it's like, is anything fundamentally there? No. But there is, you know, quick movement happening. Yeah. And this being able to hold these two opposing thoughts is paradoxical, but useful for just moving through

9:28life, right? So, you know, to recognize the absence of self is key to compassion or liberation or even enlightenment if we want to go that far. And yet at the same time, there is a self as it pertains to kind of biography or his history. Like we were at an event last night. Right. This massive seven-actillion self-assumption that was more or less, you know, barriared by my skin with any physical environment. And I was listening to you on the stage. And so there is a self that we can put into those brackets, right? But as we look kind of deeper into our physiology and psychology, that attachment to the symbol of self has the ego that seems really to be elusive. Yeah. I think that's what I've learned is that the self that we are

10:33interacting through every day is really just like a momentary combination of physical and mental phenomena. Right. Moving an incredibly rapid speed. It creates, it's moving so fast that it makes this like illusion of eye. But when you, you know, sort of step outside of the static framework that we live in and just literally close your eyes and start feeling what's happening within, you, like you get a subset of the universe within the framework of the body. And when you study that, you start learning these universal laws. And the most apparent law is that truth of impermanence. You start literally feeling how everything is changing. And over time that will just sort of, you know, it'll fruit into this deeper understanding of like, oh, if I try to hang on to things, I'm going to suffer. And also, if everything's always changing, what I am is more so a flowing river as opposed to a static sense of self. Yes. Yeah. And we can, we can swim with that current or not. Yeah. Well, I think this is good. This is the

11:39lazy sort of the compost for this conversation. Yeah. As we begin to approach the concept of love and how we love better, you know, certainly that idea of love is most, most predominantly applied to relational love. Right. But I think it would be actually helpful before we actually talk about that for you to maybe help the audience or for people who aren't familiar with your story. To talk really about the importance of self love or self awareness. Yeah. And whether or not that's actually a prerequisite for relational love. Yeah. I think when we're especially when we're dealing with the conventional reality, like self love is such a good starting point. I think for my own journey, you know, I was born in Ecuador. My family, my mom and dad decided to move all of us to Boston, Massachusetts, 1992. And we were growing up in a lot of poverty. And my mom, she worked

12:45cleaning houses. My dad worked at a supermarket. And they were very hardworking people, both very intelligent, but we were stuck in a very classic American poverty trap. Now I was a young child. So growing up in that, seeing my parents constantly fight about how they're going to pay the rent, seeing my parents, you know, struggle to put food in the fridge and living through that imprinted so many patterns inside of me, you know, my own reactive patterns, but they were sort of coming in through the conditioning that I was in. And so much sadness, so much anxiety, a scarcity mindset, it really built up over time. And I had no way to approach the inner worlds. Like, you know, therapy wasn't popular or accessible yet. This was very obviously like, you know, 90s to the early 2000s, very pre-wellness. I didn't know anybody who meditated. So my only solution was to ignore what I was feeling. And if it got too intense to start running away from it. So that led me into my college

13:52days where I started drinking and smoking and doing drugs to just get away from myself as fast as possible. So I was doing the, you know, the total opposite of self love, which led me to just crashing, you know, full rock bottom. And in the rock bottom moment, when I almost lost my life, because of, you know, I put too many drugs in my body, what became really clear was I got here because I was lying to myself. Like, I didn't want to just admit the simple truth of, I don't feel good. And that's what really sort of woke up the self love journey for me to pay attention to my habits, for me to pay attention to my emotions and to just, you know, start intentionally crafting my life as opposed to just being passive and reactive. Yeah. Do you feel like the drugs in alcohol were a maladaptive choice, but still an indication of, of a connection that you were actually seeking,

14:52but you were just actually making inappropriate decisions. Yeah. I think so. I was seeking a connection. Like, it's almost like I was seeking a fake piece, you know, because I remember the sensations very crisply where, you know, when I would take, you know, enough mixture of like marijuana and alcohol and cocaine all together would create like really pleasant sensations in the body. And my afterwards, my mind would feel chaotic, but very temporarily there was like some semblance of pleasure, you know, and it just didn't lead to anything like it didn't lead to like the real piece that I was looking for. But I think that I was definitely searching for a very specific sensation. Yeah. And were you able to simulate or mimic that sensation to some degree as you began to discover meditation and exploration of self? No, I learned something even better. So I learned that my, my piece is not in any sensation.

15:55It's in this very sort of subtle space where I'm not rejecting anything. I'm not suppressing anything. But I'm also not rolling in it. I'm not like letting myself just be taken away by whatever emotions happening. Instead, there is so much peace in just observing, like literally just observing what's happening inside. And whether what I'm observing sometimes like when I'm feeling when I'm meditating, it's not easy. Sometimes fear comes up, sometimes, you know, sometimes very like strong pete, your pleasantness will come up. But whatever it is, I can observe this quality of impermanence in the sensation and that helps in the letting go and in the letting go and the release of that tension. There's a lot of peace. Yeah. I've been wearing Vivo barefoot for quite a few years now. And at first, I was a little skeptical about barefoot shoes, like my memory of those back maybe 10, 15 years ago. Not so stylish.

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18:06subscribers. Reclaim your natural potential. Weird more. So it sounds like this period when you got clean was characterized by a degree of honesty with yourself totally, with acceptance, with a degree of compassion for yourself. Totally. How did that emerge? Because I think for many people who are struggling with myriad addiction, the other side seems slightly like so far away. Yeah. I think, you know, and I don't know if this is a popular answer or not, but I don't, I mean, it's just my truth. So I'm just saying, I remember when I was on the on the floor, and I was almost, you know, I was like in between life and death. Like I had really

19:07pushed my body to the edge. This was the summer of 2011. But I knew really clearly that if I wanted to live a new life, I needed to just do the opposite of everything that I was doing. So what got me there was lying to myself. So I have to tell myself the truth, truth. What also got me there was taking all these drugs, I had to put away the hard drugs. And I could feel how weak my body was. So my mind was like, I have to make my body stronger. And one of the, you know, so I put the hard drugs away, I started paying attention to my emotions and I started going on walks. That was like the big thing. I started going on walks and the walks became hikes and the hikes eventually became signing up to a gem. So it was like these tiny little things to just like make myself mentally and physically stronger. So you're able to wind up positive habits. Totally, totally. I

20:09think that that. So when I think of self love, I break it down into what you were saying. So that radical honesty with yourself, acceptance, because you don't want to just go in there into the, you know, your inner forest, you don't want to just start hating yourself, because you're going to see a lot of things you like and a lot of things you don't like. So it's best to just accept. Like this is the reality of the story. And then positive habit building. Like what are you missing? What can you add to your life? So then you meet Sarah. And how do you begin to apply some of those same principles of self acceptance and self love to relationship? Yeah. Well, the fun part is more complicated. Yeah, the fun part is that I met Sarah before. So like when I, we got together in she was a freshman and I was a sophomore. And that was when I like really just started doing drugs. And it became worse and worse over time as we were together. And so she saw, she saw all of my

21:15darkest moments. And even though she was sort of like way more under control was living her own life and her own journey. And we were together, she had no control over me. And you know, I was just sort of going through through this story. But what was interesting was that she saw that big change happen. And she saw how much I was committing to life, how much I was committing to like trying to open up a new chapter. And I think it made her really excited. You know, she was like looking forward to this. She was looking forward to us sort of starting fresh. And I think in that that beginning part, I was so focused on the self love aspect where our relationship was basically the same. But what really started waking me up to the truth of how it could be better in relationship was when I started meditating a year later. So it was almost like a year of self love. We were still together. And I was really just like fixing myself, making myself stronger, practicing not doing drugs,

22:19you know, and just like trying to build this new chapter. And then literally a year after the rock bottom moment, I did my first silent tender retreat. And that's when, you know, I go into the retreat for healing. And I knew that I still needed to sort of remove this heavy weight in my mind. But I was shocked when at the end of the retreat, you know, it started, I learned so much about how I was causing difficulty in the relationship. How much I needed to let go. How much I, you know, could be more selfless and more loving. And I was really surprised by that. So what was that first 10 day of your post? No, like for you. Oh, so hard. That was really like printed in the memory. It was really, really hard after spending a lifetime of avoiding yourself. And also just the conditioning of society, you know, televisions and cell phones and all that to just be with yourself. And for an extended period of time, you know, we would have

23:26these of a positive retreats. They're totally silent. You know, you're there meditating with other people in a course, but you're not really making eye contact with anyone. You're not communicating with anyone in any way. You're meditating anywhere from, you know, five, six hours a day to 11 hours a day maximum. And it's a lot of time to just be with whatever it is because sometimes what is there is quite challenging. And yeah, I remember thinking like wanting to leave the whole time up until like day eight, you know, just for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, what can be revealed under the microscope of the mind is, is how much suffering is self-inflicted. And I don't in any way mean to, to undervalue, you know, neglect or abuse or racism. Obviously, yeah, there's other forms of suffering that are heaped upon us. But when you really begin to exalt the nature

24:30of suffering, it is so often a result of phantoms of our own projection, right? Totally. Yeah. And I assume that this was was one of the revelations that you had. I think it was made so crystal clear how I cause so many of my own problems. And simply because of a lack of flexibility and a lack of being open to, you know, mueness and being open to like just just different possibilities. And also, I mean, going to what you were saying, it became really clear how easily the mind can pick up a problem of the past and just use it to generate tension, to just literally generate more and more tension. And, you know, it's so interesting because now I've spent, I spent a lot of, I spent a lot of time meditating, right? And I've done a lot of 10 day

25:31retreats. I've done 20 days, 30 days, 45 days. And so I spent a lot of time with myself, you know, in the darkness. And I've seen all my memories, I've seen all of them. And a lot of different things will, you know, when they will come up in retreats and they'll come up as emotions, you know, some fear will come up, some anxiety will come up. And often it comes up without a narrative, but it will try to grab a narrative. It will try to like pick up something from long ago and connect itself to like, oh, is this like in relation to my brother or my sister or my mom. And then I'm there and I'm observing. I'm like, no, I'm like, it's just tension that's arising. I'm like, it's trying to create a story. It's trying to create some deeper meaning so I can focus it on, focus on it even more. But it's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting to actually be able to witness that phenomenon because we just weave up these stories. Totally. We tell

26:33ourselves about ourselves. And then they essentially become our reality. And you're right. I mean, so often they tend to have their root in something that happened in the past. And then we project that feeling into the future. I think Daniel Cahneman has this phrase like, and we're making negative anticipated memories. Totally. That's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where, you know, it's not even happened yet. Nor is it really truly a reality. Yeah. We're already creating something to be anxious about. And a lot of our anxiety is not about the thing itself. It's actually about the anxiousness. So we're actually anxious about something that is making us anxious. It's quite twisted. So as you're kind of unwinding a lot of these psychological pathologies, how are then you able to apply some of these learnings to

27:37bettering your relationship with Sarah? A few ways. I think a lot of it is doubling down on basics. I mean, there's like, you know, three key things that I sort of anchor and how to love better. There is the concept of kindness, compassion, and growth. And with kindness, whomever you are in proximity to, you know, whether that's your roommate, your, you know, family members or your partner, they're going to see the best of you and the worst of you. Part of that is because of some degree of vulnerability. And that's really valuable. You know, you want to be able to show people, you know, the heaviness that you're carrying sometimes. But something that happens with long-term relationships is that it's really easy to get into a rut where you're just, you know, are always complaining and forget to intentionally bring in the sweetness of a relationship to like balance it out. So I think especially in the long run, bringing in and

28:38moving with kindness because you don't always know, you know, sometimes you're both working and you're both coming home, you don't know what your partner went through, you know, or you don't know like how, what struggles they may be carrying that day in their mind. So trying to approach them with a certain degree of kindness while maintaining your honesty, I think is really valuable. There's also the concept of compassion where it's a very specific type of compassion. It's literally the ability to step outside of your perspective to see the perspective of another. Now, if you look at any style of argument solution, that specific type of compassion is needed. Like you need to be able to see outside of your perspective to be able to come to a resolution. And I think that's like one of the clearest ways that you can love a person. And then the last part is growth where if you enter a relationship automatically, you are in a chamber of learning. Like, the person is next to you is going to be such a clear mirror and you will know what

29:40you're good at and what you're not good at right away. So you kind of just have to accept the journey of growth. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's an old trope that often gets heaped on to relationships of like, oh, he'll never change or she'll never change. Yeah. Right. But this is of course where Buddhism again has some utility because when you realize that change is the only thing on offer, your partner can change. And you are also changing in relationship to your partner. Yeah. And when you say like, you know, this person can never change, they are changing, but what they're changing into is something harder. They're hardening. They're like solidifying into these patterns. These patterns are getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So they are changing, but just like in a way that's probably not useful to them and to others. Yeah. So you're talking about some of the foundations of a healthy relationship in the book. What would you say are the core foundations, the compost yeah, a fluorescent garden. Yeah. I think one of the clearest things, I mean, there's two elements to

30:42it really. It's I really think preventive communication is so valuable. Like when you wake up in the morning, telling your partner how you feel, you know, and it can be something so simple and unprompted, you know, just offering the information. Like I feel pretty good today or I feel, I feel, you know, some tension moving through me or the argument I got into yesterday with my boss is still like, you know, resident in my body, but just giving a little piece of information about where you're at can be so valuable. Like whenever my wife tells me that she's not feeling great, I'm like joyful to receive that information because then I know that I can, you know, give her her space, support her, we can talk about it like whatever it is, but I can't read her mind. So having a little bit of of information to see what her inner world is like can be really valuable and it can really help stop unnecessary arguments from happening because a tense mind will look for more cannon fodder and it'll look for more to be tense about and it's so easy when you're standing right next to me,

31:45I'm like, oh, of course, I can just be mad at you. Yeah. Yeah. The target in closest proximity. Yeah. And also for some reason, we feel more able to be that way with the people that we love the most. Yeah. Versus like, I will be more polite and courteous to a complete stranger than I sometimes will be with the woman that I love more than anything in the world. Yeah. It's strange that we do that. You know, one of the, are you familiar with this concept of the Brahma-Vihara? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, this is a good gauge of like where I am kind of as a partner day to day. So there's four components this week. Maybe play with them a little bit. But so am I capable of metta of loving kindness day to day to my partner of really bringing that

32:48unconditional form of gentleness and humility and love to my partner. And that is, you know, I can almost, I mean, I don't like to game a five, the Brahma-Vihara. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It feels a little sacrilege. But some days, but some days I'm like, yeah, you know, I am in that state of of loving kindness or mojita like my ability to feel joy. Yeah. For my partner's joy. Yeah. I mean, that's huge. That's huge. Yeah. And and maybe applied more broadly. Pretty rare. Yeah. Because particularly in the kind of attention economy and social media world, you know, we live in comparison to everyone else. So someone has some great, they hit the bestseller list. I know. But you're like, what about me? Yeah. That's your first instinct instead of just feeling joy for their joy. But every once in a while, you know, and I do feel this with my partner. And hopefully to

33:56more and more people, if just absolutely being able to rejoice in someone else's joy. Yeah. So we and then Karuna compassion is part of it. The ability to really identify someone else's suffering as your own. Yeah. Potentially. As a definition for that, you may have a more finer point on that. And really the deep desire to alleviate that suffering. Yeah. To bring forth some sort of self. I don't know if you think of Karuna or compassion. No, I think that's that's fine. Yeah. And then the last piece for me is at least in the Brahma Bhaha, I think it's Upega so equanimity, which could be misinterpreted as sort of a sort of a conciliatory kind of limp approach. So what is your interpretation of equanimity or Upega within the context of of relationship? Equanimity is like you're just really allowing yourself to

35:02observe as opposed to immediately judging. So it's like allowing the cognizing part of the mind to have the space to just receive like what's happening here without immediately throwing an evaluation on top of it. And that's possible when you have an equanimous mind. Equanimity is difficult. It's a very difficult one. It's it's something that I would not be aware of or have without training. I think you know every human being has these qualities like we're like born with them but they're not strong. And I think that's why I take my hours of meditation so seriously because I know that I have to take myself to the mental gym. Like if I want to open up the Brahma Bhaha's I need to you know allow space to my mind for all this heavy conditioning to evaporate so that these Brahma Bhaha's can open up but equanimity I think can be so valuable in our relationship. Yeah, how do

36:04you square equanimity and injustice? So how can you feel a conumis in the face of just pure unmitigated evil or injustice? I think it's um this is what people get wrong about equanimity is that you can have goals. You can move towards big goals with a lot of energy without being attached to them without slowing them down with your own tension and agitation. And you like think about the Buddha's like the Buddha he waged war against ignorance like literally like went to battle and that was a big goal and he failed a bunch of times. He failed a bunch of times and then he didn't cry about it. He was just like that didn't work. Let me go back to the drawing board and try something else. So he would re-strategize and then try again. So I think that's an approach that I like to

37:08have to life where there are going to be a lot of things that we don't like. So act, act like instead of reacting, act, like try to make the world a better place but try to do it with compassion, right? Because whomever is causing harm, that person is in deep, deep ignorance. They're like severely misunderstanding the universe and they're harming themselves in the present and in the future. So I think a lot of times we fail to have compassion for those who are causing harm as well. Like it's important to have compassion to everyone but even those that do the killing, even those that press the button to send missiles like these people are causing themselves a ton of harm. Hey, it's Jeff. So we often think of wellness as something external. What we eat, how we move. But inside our bodies is an amazing repair system driven by stem cells. They're constantly working

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39:16commune unlock more of your body's innate repair system with stem regen. I think one of my essentials in my relationship is trying to be fully present for my partner. And in the age of distraction, I find myself only partially successful. I wonder if you have any approaches to being able to give that that present of presence. Yeah, I think what like shook me awake was deepening my understanding of impermanence and realizing that we generally have a very combative relationship with impermanence because we're scared it's going to take the things that we love. It's going to take them away. But it started

40:18hitting me. It was like, wait, everything that I love exists because of change. Like if this were a static universe, nothing would exist. We wouldn't be talking to each other. There would be no opportunity for life. But because change has created this motion, it's created these opportunities for these experiences to arise. And now I take it like these moments that I have with my wife or with dear friends or with my mom and dad. It's like these moments are so special. I don't know when they're going to end. So it encourages me to like bring more energetic presence to a situation than before. And I'm not like perfect or anything like that. Like I'm, you know, I still, like my wife and I was still struggling with the sweetness of scrolling next to each other. We're looking through our feeds and stuff. But we take our presence quite seriously where we really love to talk to each other. We love to talk about the mundane things about how do we pay this bill to what we've

41:19been learning or talking about different concentration states or wisdom because my wife is also very serious, serious, meditator. So exploring wisdom together is like, it makes me feel like we have really won the lottery to be able to like share these conversations together. But I've really just let change inspire me to, you know, let me enjoy this moment. Let me really be here because it's not always going to be there. Yeah. Do you think it's important to have creative shared goals with your partner? Sometimes I think there are times where we do have creative shared shared goals, but then other times where it's nice that we're living our separate lives. Like I think I picture the two of us as we're both two rivers that are flowing forward, but we've chosen to be side by side. And sometimes that will interact with our work. Like right now, right now, my wife is my manager. And she is great. She's always going to be my manager because I trust her judgment

42:22the most because it's, you know, she has wisdom. But how we work together, all of that's going to evolve. Like if we have kids in the future, like that's going to change the way it looks and all of that. So yeah, I like the flow of it. Yeah, less poetically, I think if it is, I'll meet you downtown, babe. I'll take the 101. You take the five. That's cool. That we have a shared mission. We want to have a shared terminus, but we may get there on our own paths. And you quote this wonderful Khalil Jabran home, I think it's called marriage or marriage. Yeah, marriage. And I won't even try to get it. But it's essentially this idea of, you know, help your partner keep their cup full. Yeah, but drink out of a separate cup, right? Or I think, you know, there's something with loaves of bread in there as well, right? Yeah, like from your own love, but make sure that there's

43:26plenty of love there for your partner. It's interesting. I think that, you know, you're making me reflect. And I think the, um, the creative venture that we really both have as a mission is the acquiring of wisdom. I think that's what really binds the two of us together. Even before we got, we started meditating. I think to the both of us, it was really surprising that we had such a magnetic connection. And we were together because we couldn't be a part. Even though we didn't know how to be together well, we didn't know how to care for each other well. We would, you know, break up sometimes, come right back together. And it only made sense once we started meditating, and once we started doing longer retreats, like 30-day retreats, it hit the both of us. It was like, whoa, like we've been doing this for lifetimes. Like we've been on this meditation journey together. And I think that's something that like I cherish so deeply because I feel like not only do I love

44:26looking at her and learning from her, but she's my comrade in wisdom. Like this person is someone that can just handle this deep, deep conditioning processes, which are not easy. So grateful for that. Yeah, well, that's, I mean, the root of philosophy, right? The love of wisdom. And I know you, you, you, in the book, you know, you talk about self-love, you talk about relational love, and then you talk about the love of wisdom. Yeah. As a primary pursuit, which I think is, is beautiful. And you can join wisdom and humility in an interesting way. Can you maybe extrapolate on how those two are connected? Yeah, I think even, you know, whether in relationship, I feel like even, you know, that's probably one of the best green flags you can look for in a new friend or a potential partner is humility. That means that their sense of self is not static. Like there's

45:30a looseness there. There's an openness. They can, they know that they don't have a full grasp on the whole field of knowledge that they have more to learn. And I think that's what makes a good student and a good partner. When I think about it in terms of wisdom, like it is so impressive to me that I've been meditating the same technique, like the same, the same Vipassana technique for 13 years now, learning how to do it better over time. But when I close my eyes and I go to retreat, I'm exploring the universe and exploring it within the framework of the body. I have no idea what I'm going to learn. I have no idea what I'm going to let go of next or or or just like what wisdom I'm going to come across. And part of that is me accepting that I don't know everything. I'm not fully free. I have a lot, a lot to learn. And I think that makes the journey just like smoother. And that's why I've always been very intentional about, you know, I see myself as a student first

46:32and foremost because I think, you know, the term teacher gets tossed around really loosely. And a lot of people give it to themselves very quickly. Like I feel like what I do is I openly reflect, you know, these are things I'm learning. You can agree, you can disagree. But I'm very careful with that, that big title, you know, I'd rather be a student. Yeah. I think that this is where wisdom is more of a really a moral trait or characteristic that versus like knowledge, you know, because you can transmute experience and mistakes into wisdom if you have the humility to actually acknowledge where you've made a mistake. Yeah. You know, and then you've rendered it not a mistake. Yeah. But it does take, it does take that humility, that humble approach to say, no, I didn't do it

47:34correctly instead of essentially doubling down and, you know, doing the same thing over and over again. And then also surrounding yourself with people that are smarter than you. In many cases, or fill in different gaps that you don't have. And this is where, you know, humility can be applied to great leadership. Right. So, you know, the great leaders tend to reflect on where they might be deficient and they actually surround themselves by people who might be smarter than them. And this is, of course, a lesson that people might listen to in this moment. Yeah. I think it's, I mean, you're hitting that something that's so core. I've been noticing this almost like this tendency that I have developed over the years where I really like to be around people who've meditated more than me, but also don't write books. They're not like, you know, they're not like you and I, they don't have like social media personalities and newsletters. You know, they're just like, they're just people that they work their job, they garden,

48:38they, and they meditate a ton. And they're just close to the work. Yeah. And they're doing it so deeply. And it's like, they're, they sit down, they gain wisdom. And then they live their lives through meta. They're just like, you know, how can I approach things with loving kindness? Make sure that I'm doing right by myself, but also moving gently through the world. I find that so inspiring because I've, when I think about like, and these calculations don't really mean anything, they're more so like a sign of effort. But I think I've meditated somewhere around like 13, 14,000 hours. But I'm like young, you know, like I have, I've meditated very little compared to the people that I look up to who, you know, I have one person who I always bring my, my Dharma questions to. And he's probably meditated like 30, 40,000 hours. I have another teacher who's meditated like 50,000 hours. And it's, it's incredible to see how much time they put into their minds and how, how much peace there is in their eyes. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. My,

49:45my mother is this way. She's not a, a, a, a, a developmentator, but she has a Buddha nature to her. She is without anxiety and stress. She's 81 years old. And she drives to the train stations, like 40 minutes, takes the train, changes trains, gets off at 125th Street, gets on a bus, takes the bus cross town, walks up to Columbia University and teaches a course there in peacekeeping and nonviolent communication and then meets with students and then goes back and you know her head doesn't hit the pillow until 11, 1130 and she wakes up and walks the dog and does it on the pan. But her impact is so profound and very simple. Yeah. And you know she's deeply trusted because she is so simple and really has no agenda in many ways. And this is a good bridge maybe into

50:46part of the book that I found to be particularly interesting and in an area that I've done a lot of excavating which is how to actually have artful disagreements, arguments. Yeah. Totally. So my just the pretext there is, you know my mother essentially moderates conversations between Palestinians and Israeli Jews on the Columbia campus, within the context of her classroom. So as I was kind of picking through your book and that chapter, it was interesting to see some of those techniques as applied to relationships. So maybe we could go into that a little bit because I think that this is an area that is extremely important within the context of relational love, but also has broader implications to society because we don't seem to be able to talk to each other very constructively these days. So how do you think about some of the essential aspects of having

51:54and very, very difficult conversations or arguments within the context of relationship and then maybe we can broaden that out. You know, and right before I jump in I do want to point out that that is the power of equanimity. Like what your mom has to be able to hold a space of tension and anchor it in your own equanimity and still respectfully, they're fully present, but not getting taken into the storm. Like that is the power of a real teacher and I think that's something that we can bring with us everywhere. And I feel like that's been a personal goal of mine is like I want to live in my own energy, right? And like when I come across like tension or you know people who sort of you know, especially when it's like a close friend who's going through something or you know or I miss, misspeak and make a mistake and someone's upset not to get brought into the storm, but it's like let me live in my piece, let me respond skillfully, but but also still living my own energy.

52:54Yeah, not connect and not have an emotional reaction based upon the judgment of something, but actually be able just to actually try to see it for what the event is itself. This is going to stow it in nature too. When I think about arguments, right? Like arguments are a part of life. They're just going to happen. Like my perception will misunderstand you at some point. Yeah, and maybe even necessary for revolution. Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's going to be a little tension in there. Yeah, usually, usually arguments are there as a point to demonstrate that you can come closer in your connection, right? Like we're a little bit far apart. Let's figure out how we can get closer together. And I think what really dawned on us, like a lot of this stuff was sort of literally homemade during the pandemic. It was plenty of opportunity for argument. Yeah, and like you know, we have been meditating, but it became clear when we were both like, you know,

53:57we were living in New York City during the first wave of the pandemic. And it became clear. I was like, oh, like we need to work on our culture like between the two of us. Like our culture is not conducive to harmony because we spend so much time apart. You know, she'd work as a scientist, and I was working writing. But once we were like in proximity to each other all the time, it became clear that arguing to win was making the both of us lose. And something deeper was there. And as we kept talking and as we kept growing too, because what was helpful was like we both kept developing our self-awareness, both kept developing our non-reactiveness. And that created a little bit of space for us to see like, oh, actually, when we argue, my job is not to win. It's to try to understand you. Like I want to understand what happened. And hopefully you can give me the same opportunity. And this changed everything for us. Like literally giving up winning, it's not like who can make the most skillful argument,

55:02or who can make them, you know, like if like, let's say like if you're married to a lawyer, you're always going to lose. Like you're not going to, you know, like, you're not, that's not the best way to argue with them. Because they have the skill for it. But when you just try to understand each other and you're literally saying, please, like walk me through the flow of events. And then you do your best. You walk through the flow of events without heavy finger pointing or saying, you know, this, this, I'm failing this way. But just speaking about how you were moving through your own emotional range as the events unfolded really helps you see another person. And when you can really see them clearly, that's when the middle path starts opening up. And sometimes it's what Tick-N-Out Hansen, like love is understanding. So when I'm really fully understanding, like let's say my wife and I are having an argument, and I can really understand her, like, I don't feel that tension anymore. I'm not like, oh, like there's nothing to win anymore. It's like, oh, I see, like I didn't see that before. And I think it's just a valuable approach, like whether

56:07in relationship, friendship, or, you know, across nations. Like, what are we trying, you know, we need to understand each other a little better? Yeah, this idea of listening for the purposes of understanding, instead of for the purpose of responding. Yeah, or like sharpening my argument, like, like, how can I retort? Like, yeah, let it go. Let it go. Yeah. And not, and really surrendering this desire to win. Yeah. And seeking connection over solution or, you know, seeking connection over agreement or running. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and this is what, you know, I have found, as I've embarked on all sorts of difficult stressful conversations with people, is that if you can point out where your life experience is actually converged, totally there's a point of shared experience. That creates a human bond that will allow potentially

57:10for some sort of agreement or some sort of common ground or middle path, not that it always ends in a combi sort of moment. But that can be so much more potent and profitable versus, you know, I'm going to win or if you don't adopt my opinion by the end of this conversation, then, you know, fuck it or whatever. And what's helpful, right, is like in the middle of the argument, like reminding yourself that you're not in danger, like you're arguing with the person that you love, like your best friend, the funniest person you know, you know, like you're really arguing with someone that you really care about and not allowing that sort of like hunter gatherer mind because it becomes so fearful because we think, oh, we're going to kick that out of the tribe, you know, like where like in there's that danger there, but no, you're just having an argument and you're probably arguing over something mundane, but it's helping you see that one, you can try

58:11to understand each other better and come closer together. And I think part of that is really stemming from recognizing each other's humanity. It's like, right, right, like let me not get fully caught up in the story that has all these different points, but like I love this person. So let me relax, let me listen. And it's not going to be easy. It's something you have to train yourself to do to like really practice selfless listening, like what Christian and Marcy was always talking about, like can I really listen? Can I really observe this? Like it takes training. When I play tennis, element is my go to electrolyte mix. Now I'm 55 years old, but I'm still running down drop shots like I'm half my age. When I don't replace my electrolytes, I basically turn into a raisin with a limp opinion and even worse slice back in. That's true. Electrolite imbalance can cause headaches, cramps, fatigue, brain fog and weakness. Element is a zero sugar electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte water, born from the growing body of research that optimum

59:14health outcomes occur at sodium levels two to three times government recommendations. Each stick pack delivers a meaningful dose of electrolytes free of the sugar artificial colors and dodgy ingredients found in other popular sports drinks. Element is formulated for anyone on a mission to restore health through hydration and is perfectly suited for athletes, folks who are fasting and those following keto low carb whole foods or paleo diets. You can get a free sample pack of elements most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinkelement.com forward slash commute that's drink LMNT.com forward slash comment. Yeah, I often just as a really tactical point, I find that letting the person completely finish what they have to say, allowing for a little bit of a pause and then

1:00:17concocting your response or your rejoinder. That seems to be a more profitable way of exchanging. Because so much of the time, the person's still talking and we're already familiar with response. Cooking it up. Cooking it up. In a sort of, you know, joicular repartee like this one, that's fine because we're just excited to talk to each other and we can interrupt each other. That's totally fine. But in a more contentious conversation, you know, really allowing for someone to finish giving that space, which then allows them to feel seen and heard. And then it's huge. What you're saying is huge. I think it's not only a sign of respect, but it's like you're really putting in the effort on your end. I think that something in addition to that that I found that is really helpful is almost like allowing slow arguments to happen. You don't need to rush into a solution or rush into agreeing to one mutual narrative.

1:01:23But instead, I have found that the most productive arguments my wife and I have had have been like, sometimes they take like an hour or two hours, they're like, they're long. You know, and we're just like, well, you know, one person will speak and then we're just kind of quietly looking at the wall or just like reflecting on what they were saying. And then the next thing, the other person speaks, and they're not quick arguments. But something about just like taking our time to really like seep ourselves in their perspective just helps us see. Yeah. I think there's also a personal growth opportunity inside of those arguments where, you know, try this on, you know, instead of actually rebutting someone's opinion with whom you disagree, try to actually reiterate the best parts of their argument back to them. Yeah. Yeah. And see what that does for your own, you know, personal growth, but also what it does for your own opinion, because you have to fortify your opinion through

1:02:30actually considering the best parts of someone else's position. And, you know, I think these are, these are where a conflict actually offers a tremendous opportunity. Yeah. I think it's really arguments can really become such a like, it's a point where you really see your growth where, you know, you see an argument bubbling up and it's not necessarily something to avoid. It doesn't mean the relationship's going wrong. You know, it's we're imperfect people. So there's going to be friction because egos are rough. So when it arises, how can I hold it? Now, that's what I meant about the culture of the relationship was like, we didn't have these things figured out because I can, I can love you, but I'm not going to know how to care for you. I'm not going to know like, you know, what are your trigger points? Like, what, how has your emotional history shaped your primary behaviors? And it takes time to really get to know a person and then develop a functional culture around that so that the two of you can really have harmony.

1:03:33Hmm. We're like a, building a family culture. Oh, totally. Yeah. It's a great, great, great, what you're thinking about it. At the end of the book, you make a somewhat audacious claim that love is freedom because love often kicks, um, yeah, characterized within the parentheses of sacrifice, a limitation of everything we have to give up for this other bigger idea. But how do you understand love as freedom? I know. When people hear that they immediately think, you know, you take that, you take love, you put freedom next to it and the fear comes up and it's like, Oh, that means my partner can do whatever they want and sleep with whoever they want. Like, no, that's not what I'm talking about. Okay. I'm talking about the understanding that like, there is a heightened, like the sort of the highest level of love, unconditional love. Something very difficult, right? We're talking like Jesus in the boot. We're talking like people who are really, really well developed and can totally look upon the world and see no one as an enemy.

1:04:39What we get in a relationship is the opportunity to practice little bits of unconditional love. Where like, can I really listen to you selflessly? Can I really support you? Can I try to give to you and also be in an environment that's generative, where we're both giving to each other? But when I talk about love as freedom, is that is one freedom. That's like, you know, the freedom of getting an opportunity to practice unconditional love because unconditional love is at, you know, a mind that doesn't have tension. So there's freedom there. But it's also the freedom of just letting you be your own person. Like what I said before, like, I have no control over my wife's interests. Like, she has evolved so much. Like, she's probably been like five different people. You know, like, she probably like so many different chapters in her life where she'll have interests, she'll delve into them over time. They, you know, they change the types of books that she likes to read, the type of shows she likes to watch. You know, there has been so much that

1:05:42changes about her character. And I'm happy that I have no control over it. Like, I just get to watch and observe and like, we make this intentional choice to be together. But, but I have no control over the way she will evolve. I think I'm just fortunate that we we choose to to continue and sound like you get to have an affair with the same person without the the hassle of getting divorced. You're just like, I have a new wife because we're, because we're impermanent, because we're re making ourselves all the time. Totally. I mean, who she was when she was 18 versus who she is when she's 35. It's a world of a difference. And I'm lucky to get to witness all of it. So when I think about love being freedom is just that I, we have commitments, we have commitments that help create a home where I'm intentionally committing to just be with her. But then other than that, like, you know, like, well, there's just so much freedom involved. And, you know, she makes her decisions, she makes her own trips. She's like, we do so much together

1:06:44and we also do so much apart. Yeah. I think there's also this ability to pursue madcap risks and dreams. Knowing that you have that soft pillow on conditional love to cushion your fall in failure and inevitably there will be many, many failures. And in this sense, you know, commitment or love is, is liberating. Yeah. Because it allows you to go pursue those things. Now we have to add another chapter. Yeah. You got to write, you got to write this one in. Okay. I've been talking about this for days. Okay. And so with Michael Jervis yesterday, I don't know if you saw him there. He's also been in a really long-term relationship. And I was, I had a quick chat with his wife and I was telling her like, I feel like part of my success with writing and in business in general has been because I just have this solid

1:07:49relationship with my wife. Like, it's just not that relationship is not going anywhere. That's my home. And I tried to feed that relationship as much as I can. But that part of my mind is totally calm. You know, like, you can witness someone and say, Oh, like, you can witness that someone's attractive. But then there's nothing else, right? There's no seeking, no approaching, no hunting. And I know I see friends who they're still looking for their partner. And it takes up a ton of space in their mind. Yeah. And that's, yeah. Yeah. My wife and I joke about that sometimes. But it's not really humorous in the end because I think part of being able to live a life of purpose and actually pursue dreams and have failures, you know, in some manner requires that bedrock. Or it doesn't require it, but it is, it's helped through having that that solidity. Yeah. Sometimes I can skylar my soft, if slightly stained pillow, to comfort, you know, to comfort me.

1:08:54And I've had plenty of missteps. But, you know, you miss every shot you don't take, right? So, and she's allowed me to take a lot of shots. Yeah. And I think profound relationships come in a lot of different shapes and sizes. Like, I think I've seen people have those types of relationships with their sublings, where they're just like that connection is there or with best friends. But I think having a home that you can really come back to, whether it's a home that you make with, you know, whoever it could be, I think it just allows you to be courageous. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And in this sense, it's literally the opposite of limitation. It's actually liberation. Yeah. It's totally. So, in the book, you make this very nuanced delineation between clinging and closeness. And it really made me think, actually, to take a step back and and ask myself, like, well, where am I clinging? And where is this just feel close and intimate?

1:09:58And I wonder if there's a, there's a compass there, you know, to help us actually delineate between those two. Yeah. I think about, you know, clinging, it always has some sort of tension. Like, that's what makes it so clear. It's like, I know what peace feels like. And I know what embracing change feels like, you know, where I'm just really just observing. But clinging, like, whether it's craving or aversion, it's full of tension. Like, the mind is like grabbing so hard. And that's not the way that I want to approach love. And, you know, there's something about this intentional ability to, you know, recommit to someone over and over and over again and build such a beautiful nourishing culture between us. I think that's what helps the closeness feel so deep. Because the culture between her and I, like, it's only for the two of us. It's interesting, actually, to apply clinging or kind of that tightness or clutch to the nervous system. So, so we know that feeling,

1:11:02right, when we're, I mean, fight or flight or a megalah hijack, right, where we are tense and we know kind of just hormonally what's going on. And, you know, glucose is going to our extremities and we're ready to go. And, you know, the aperture of our attention tends to get very, very narrow. And we become self-obsessed and distrust the world. And that's actually serves our biological imperative, right, to survive because we're being chased by the tiger or whatever. That's not a place from which to build a healthy, long-term relationship, right? So we also know the opposite of that feeling, where we might be out in nature and the aperture of our attention is wide, wide open, it feels super connected at home. And the opposite of self-obsessed, really. And super trusting. And when we're in that light sensation of ourselves, we tend to be most magnanimous. You know,

1:12:02where love can be truly something more given than taken. And so this, yeah, this idea of clinging as applied to the nervous system, I've never totally made that connection, but thank you. It's really nice. Yeah, it's nice listening to that. It's really well-pied. I can't let you leave without asking you about something that's not related to the book, but tangentially related because you're interested in tech and you're part of wisdom ventures. And a big part of that is artificial intelligence. Oh, yeah. I'm wondering how you see the interrelationship between AI and human relationship and intimacy. And if you're worried about it or find it interesting. There's definitely concern. AI is going to change everything. I think more than we allow ourselves

1:13:04to really think about. I'm hoping that we can use AI to help enhance our emotional skill set. Like if there are things where, you know, like learning new styles of how to hold an argument or learning, you know, you know, using journaling to like learn more about like where your blocks are and then becoming aware of them over time. Like there are so many different ways that you can use AI to just like help you see a little more of yourself. And then hopefully bring those skills back to human connection. Like how can we, you know, connect better? And I think it's interesting. Like having, you know, doing this work with wisdom ventures, it's been really cool to like, you almost get like a little peek at the future. Like, you know, what are what are these big companies building? What is it going to be like? And there are a lot of people who want to anchor what they're building in

1:14:05compassion. Like they want to design something that is hopefully going to minimize harm or at the, you know, or at least try to support an individual in their life. And it's exciting to support those ventures, but at the same time, it's like, you can take AI in so many different directions, you know, like, and I'm worried that there's going to be a split. Like I'm worried that there's going to be a split of people who just like disappear into the internet. And then other people who are just like, you know, I need to be in nature. I need to be around people. Right. We'll as we become more atomized and more and more lonely. And we're essentially relying on our relationship with our smartphone or with chat or whatever. There seems to be these relationships that are now being developed, particularly among young children and AI that replace intimacy. Yeah. And that degrade one's ability to actually develop truly intimate relationships with real people.

1:15:11And, you know, I actually just asked AI this morning, I was like, do you like me? And, you know, actually it was a fairly enlightened response. You know, I find you interesting and you ask interesting questions, but I'm not capable of liking you. It's like, okay, do you think someday that I responded? Do you think someday you'll be able to develop emotional connection? And it actually gave me an answer that I thought was interesting, but also slightly worrisome, where it's like, no, but I can simulate empathy. Yeah. And I was like, hmm, I know. You know, to the point where like my teenage daughter might think that there is a sort of compassionate, empathetic friend here on the other line, but there is really nothing no one home. No. And this is what I, this is a little source of worry for me, but, you know, I think this is

1:16:14another tool and it really will depend how we use this tool. I know, but this is probably the biggest amplifier we've ever come across. Like social media was a big amplifier, but this is like on a whole orders of magnitude bigger. And, you know, I had an interesting conversation with Josh Radner. He was, he was in how I met your mother and a bunch of other shows. And he, we were a part of this bigger conversation about AI. And it dawned on him. He was like, he was like, if everything becomes so fake, he's like, there's going to be a new premium on human connection, where like, and it's already starting to happen now. It's like, social media is becoming more and more dissatisfying, not just because of what it's, you know, the havoc that it's causing to our attention and our, our peace, but everything's just so fake. Everything's so, so polished, so cleaned up, and, you know, now there's like more and more of these fake AI avatars. And it's just so much less

1:17:16fun than it used to be to just like connect with your buddy and like, no, how they're doing. So, you know, amplify that and, you know, just keep adding more AI to everything. Everything gets hyper polished. And he was saying he was like, well, probably the best investment that you can make is buying a theater, you know, because people, it's going to be, especially in the age where like, AI becomes so dominant, you don't know if someone is writing their book through AI. You don't know if someone's creating an album through AI, but to literally watch someone have a skill, watch someone play the piano, watch someone sing, and it's just them, or watch people act. Like, I think it's going to almost like revive this like new era of human connection with like, everything just becoming so polished that it's like, let me go see someone do something real in person. Yeah, there seems to be a subculture for the analog. Yeah, right. We see it kind of in vinyl records and the little intimations of it around the side, but that humans as analogs. Yeah, yeah,

1:18:23where the analog. Yeah. I know in the future, I was thinking, I'm like, how am I going to prove that I wrote my own book? Am I going to have to like, fill myself like, really? Like, what do I do? I don't know. I mean, you might just be hard to believe. Yeah, you might just have to give it extemporaneously on a stage. I don't know. I know. And will that turn more authors into speakers? Because then it's like, we can really see what you're doing. And you know, people will come and watch and talk. I have no idea, but I think it's going to change things fast and hard. All right. Well, all these platforms, and we were talking about Subsec earlier. I mean, I wonder how many people are just like publishing chat written articles on Subsec. I don't know. Yeah. You know, so I know this. So this story that it's a very recent story. I can't say who it's from, but someone prominent in the mindfulness field was telling me that he like put together a book, but basically had a chat GBT just like create a draft of it.

1:19:26He sent it to the editor. And the editor was like, you took the life out of it. You know, you, you, and that, that was like the line. You took the life out of it. Yeah. So he had to go back and actually write the book. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I'm probably a good generation older than you. So I grew up and hip hop was like emerging. Yeah. Yeah. And in the early, this is one of my worst predictors of all time. I was like, oh, that's going to be out of here in like a year or two. That's not really music. I was like, but I grew up like kind of like getting stoned in my basement. Like, you know, playing guitar, working on piano. Like, you know, and so for me when hip hop came up, I'm like, they're not really playing instruments. You know, that's not music, you know, and then of course, over time, I grew an appreciation for what was happening where like, you know, producers were going to find like old vinyl, so you know, Miles Davis and James Brown and all the hunt for. And then,

1:20:29you know, compiling that into a new creative expression that lit people up and made people dance or, you know, and in a way, I'm thinking about AI similarly now, which is like, yeah, you're not like, you know, dumping, you know, into a into a bin trying to find that rare cut, but it's like the it's all in the prompting and then sort of the harvesting a little bits and pieces into something new and creative that actually has true value. Yeah. And in a way, I think, you know, I try to use chat when I do use it, whereas like a good hip hop producer, you know, collecting samples. But I think, you know, the true, you know, beautiful transcendent turns of phrase, these are still of human origin. I think so. And I'm very not, I'm not anti AI. Like, I think that

1:21:34we need to protect people to a certain degree, but I'm excited for what it's going to do with medicine. For sure. The way that algorithm, like, the way that these really powerful AIs are going to like attack cancer and are going to like attack like other diseases and just like really create solutions. Like it'll take a bit a little bit of time, but I think it's really coming. Yeah. Well, personalized medicine has always suffered from the inability to like crunch massive months. Exactly. To expect one doctor to be just to just have the whole field. Yeah. Like in their mind, you know, as opposed to like, you know, a computational like intelligence, upload all your whole genome. Right. And then the results of a cancer biopsy. And then map that across the entirety of all the data in the world. Totally. You could find a pre-existing therapeutic or whatever, you know, or, you know, or an immunotherapy that's

1:22:36like geared for that particular. Exactly. Exactly. And even like these full body MRIs now and it's like you have one, but then you get one every like year or two. And then you see, you see the changes over time. So it becomes much easier to spot negative changes. Right. But the changes in medicine are going to be like tremendous. And that gets me really hopeful because like, there's a lot of suffering and watching our loved ones and ourselves suffer because we're not healthy. Yeah. Absolutely. Hey, last thing for you. We were both in London recently. Yeah. I don't know if this happens to you. But this totally happens to me where after two and a half, three weeks, I'm basically speaking with a British accent. It does. It does happen to me. And it, um, it's because we're so close. Like, we're so close. And yeah, the mind is just like a sponge. Yeah. So it brings up for me because my kids tease me and they're like, well, dad, why don't you just be your authentic self? You know, why do you always have to take on the accents of everyone that you're with? And I do have a

1:23:37proclivity for doing that. I also grew up around the world. I was moving around a lot. And I was always trying to fit in. So learning new languages. I think that has a lot to do with it. Probably has a lot to do with it. But like I'll interview like Wim Hof. I know it's not talking like this. There's like my interview with Matthew McCoy is one of more embarrassing things as I'm not like, Matthew, I think you should really forget. But it has sort of brought up this this bigger idea for me around authenticity and what is the authentic self? And maybe for me or for people in general, the authentic self is actually no self at all. Yeah. Which, right? Because if you subscribe to impermanence and that you're essentially just animated information here looking to connect moment to moment that my mirror neurons are just firing in real time and subconsciously

1:24:40just doing whatever I can to tango and dance with you in order to foster some deeper form of connection. And for me, that takes form. You know, often adopting accents. But you know, so because there's a lot of, you know, importance put on being your authentic self. And what I've struggled with is actually, do I have a true kind of authentic self? Or is that just a story? And true authenticity is actually being able to be a cork bobbing on the ocean top and just adopt a spontaneous form of intelligence for the purposes of connection. Yeah. And I think about it as authenticity in the moment. Yeah. Because a lot of people think about their healing as like going back to who they were before the trauma. There's no going back. There's no, there's only

1:25:41going forward. So you can relieve the trauma. You can remove the intensity of the reaction. There's no going back. You're just a continuous unfolding. And I think about in similar terms, like authenticity is just like, what, what am I feeling in this moment? And can I speak to it? Can I live it? But and, you know, just going back to that framework about adopting accents. So I had a conversation with a friend of mine and she has a similar thing too, but we were both born in Latin American countries and then grew up in Boston. So we in the inner city of Boston, it's incredibly diverse. It's just there are people like I went to high school with people who are you know, from Vietnam, from Haiti, from from all over the world. And we all kind of came with different accents. So we were just so used to, you know, having this. So it becomes much easier to,

1:26:45to, you know, go to a place and just kind of like, you know, you can't help but be a sponge and adopt something from it. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, Diego, such a treat. I love being with you. I love the way you move through the world. Thank you. Thank you. We can do this. For many years together. Yeah. This is a real joy. Thank you. That was really fun. Super fun. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you for listening to today's episode. For more of my weekly musings along with ad free episodes and live stream conversations head over to my substack at JeffCrasno.substack.com. I also want to let you know about our course platform over on commune, which contains over 3000 lessons and practices from the world's leading integrative medicine doctors, health experts, and yoga fitness and mindfulness teachers. It's a living library for holistic well-being. And you can try it for free for 14 days at one commune.com. Forward slash try commune. As a reminder, the audio

1:27:47version of my new book, Good Stress is available on audible. And you can listen to it for free as part of your premium Spotify membership. And if you prefer the old school analog option, well, you can pick up a dusty old scroll at GoodStress.com and get over $900 worth of bonus courses from some of my biggest influences, including Dr. Mark Hyman, Dr. Zach Push, and Dr. Gabor Motte. As always, feel free to reach out to me with comments, questions, or criticism of the constructive variety at Jeff K. At OneCommune.com. Okay, that's all from the commune for today. My name is Jeff Crasno, and I am here for you. Do you ever get into bed tired? And then your brain decides, hmm, this is the perfect time to revisit that awkward conversation. Well, that was me. I'd lie there exhausted worrying about things that did not need to be solved at 2.17 in the morning.

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