Listener’s Choice: Unpacking child grooming

0:00For more about Severno's 2, go to primedipplus.com. Eunice Marais is my guest as I said and when we talk about sexual grimmin we we often think of a child who was obviously threatened or I don't know maybe forced but grimmin can be far more subtle than that it can also I don't know begin with attention it's got a little bit of trust therein there's validation or making a child feel special gradually shift in boundaries until sexual behavior feels normal and and for boys and men recognizing that exploitation can particularly be difficult in cultures where sexual attention from an older person maybe seen as an achievement rather than abuse but what is this my guest will know far more than I do about this subject Eunice thanks very much for joining us welcome to Severno 2 good morning

1:01I'm happy being on the show this morning May lovely to have you with us and thanks again for training us Eunice let's start with the most elementary question because there's still a huge confusion around this one exactly is grooming and at what point does ordinary attention perhaps even mentorship or affection cross into grooming for sexual purposes yeah grooming is and I think maybe we should just start by acknowledging that grooming is a very complex and nominate and and we should be aware that there's so much nuance when we talk about this and so we can't over simplify grooming at all and so grooming is usually based on a sort of process and it's not a particular act or a once of things and it's something

2:02that's ongoing and the aim is usually to gain power over the child and to get the child's trust so what's interesting is we it all often this misconception that grooming starts with a child but in actual fact grooming starts often with what we call institutionalized or institutional grooming where the perpetrator would infiltrate you know a institution like school the church and they will be a very trusted figure and making people believe that they can be trusted and then they often then also groom the family so it really doesn't start with a child so there are families to see them as someone they can trust and confidence and this they do before they even start grooming the child and when they go in the trust of the family and the community and often

3:05only thing they start by grooming the child and I think it's important to know that the grooming does not always start with sexual grooming it's actually you know start with with gaining trust like if mentioned now you know they have a special interest in the child they keep their vulnerabilities and they show genuine concern for the child and only when they feel like they have gained the trust of the child will they start tasting you know sexual boundaries and then the sexual grooming may start and very gradual and this can actually sometimes take years before they might start with it with the sexual grooming of the child it sounds calculated it sounds deliberate and intentional on the side of the groomer it appears as if he has his plan worked out and his modus operandi all mapped out for this what kind of a person is more likely to

4:11become a groomer do we have a personality type or profile not necessarily nothing about another misconception is that we are still preaching strange a danger you know that it will be someone that we don't know but what we do know now is that that often happens with people that we know that we trust and within the family with respect and respected members in the community or church or police so they know where really of of knowing when a person might be more inclined to groom and that also links to sexual abuse and perpetrators there's no way really that we can determine exactly who will be more inclined to sexually abuse a child and that's what makes it so complex and speaking of complexity and difficulty I suppose one of the most difficult things

5:15for people to understand as well is that a child can appear willing under these circumstances participating what is happening and somehow even believe they wanted so does this mean that a child as far as consent is consent this may mess up their understanding of consent because their minds are still fragile their mind is still fragile at that point absolutely and that is the aim of grooming is to to cross boundaries to blur boundaries to manipulate the child in thinking that they also consent to this but they also want this so it's very gradual and it really messes the child things of boundaries and safety up so it's difficult for a child then to to give informed consent I think we should also distinguish between the child said yes and it was voluntary versus true informed consent and maybe we

6:22also look at the sexual sense of that states that a child under the age of 12 cannot give informed consent at all they're not able to mentally do so and the children between 12 and 15 you know there's a section that's to take them but a child at some age of 16 can give informed consent according to law but it's very difficult to establish whether a child really if they were grooming involved and that gives informed consent and that exactly is why grooming is so difficult because the child might actually you know love this person they may like this person because that person gained the child's trust so and the perpetrator often makes the child think that it was actually their idea as well and that is what they use things to create the secrecy and guilt and threats and manipulation to prevent a disclosure because the child starts

7:25believing that they also wants this 17 minutes after 11 o'clock you are on 1702 Taba Sholema Shau and my guest is Eunice Maray for Innsich social worker we are looking into unpaking child grooming what is that all about and often it comes to us I suppose mainly from overseas big superstars musicians and they would be appearing in court charged for this and that in the way child grooming would come up a million times and we are trying to understand what that means in our context as well in South Africa what does it law say about it but most importantly how to prevent it how to make sure that our kids do not become victims and casualties of these groomers so to call them I suppose that's a bit too fermistic I should be using a fast stronger word 11883 0702 1183

8:260702 I'd love to hear from you and as I have a word with my guest Eunice Maray that's Eunice I wanted to know if really grooming is really about the sexual act itself because horrendous as that may be to what's that there are also serious manipulation tricks that take place the secrecy boundary testing and almost gradual normalization of this and is it mainly about the sexual act itself yes so if we look at the legal framework you know sexual grooming children is seen as any act that is committed by person with the intention ultimately to encourage a child to facilitate a sexual act or to diminishing with use any resistance or unwillingness of a child for them to ultimately engage in a

9:27sexual act so that is often the the motivation and like I mentioned earlier so it might start with you know personal grooming where they give gifts that are full of antifull need they look at vulnerability you know it's a child hungry it's a child alone and they often follow those needs but then with the ultimate goal that the child starts liking this person in order to ultimately engage the child in a sexual act so there's the sexual grooming like you've also mentioned now you know they use vulnerability or whatever sexual explicit information to de-seem to tie the child and make the child think that this is okay and normal but also to kind of make the child more curious about about six and and and intervals so the ultimate goal usually with with grooming is to

10:29engage the child in some form of sexual act and are there any perhaps measures that a parent can take to help a child recognize this early or especially because a groom I mean not look like a groom as you said as far as profile is concerned it's not someone with horns and a long tail holding huge fuck it's someone who could just be a neighbor or a familiar face in the family are there any precautions that we need to look out for that can help a child so I think it's fun with proper development center and age appropriate sex education and sex education is not only having to talk with your child it is really from birth to to help children understand consent and boundary body boundary specifically and to empower children with knowledge on their body and we need to say no and

11:33and then also to make sure that you are proactive when when you talk about children about sex to children about sex so to have the chance about grooming to to help them understand what it can look like from an early age so that they can identify the dangerous ones because unfortunately no one or specific behavior in isolation is a sign that is grooming so a trusted family friend can bring your child a gift which is absolutely fine but we look at persons and we want to help children to see those persons and I think the other thing that parents can do is to and that's part of the six education is to have an open communication line of our children so that they can tell us anything and everything and then to look for you know subtle signs when they exist as T.C. around devices or unexplained gifts or when they were stored from the family you know to look for

12:38those signs and to to help children and not fall into those you know grooming process of not so so I think that the main thing is to keep the communication open between children and parents very interesting feel free to join the conversation you can send a voice note to 072 702 1702 I'll turn alternatively call us on 011 883 0702 as we discuss and unpack child grooming what does this mean you know that there is a very prominent case currently that is being heard in court and it involves I'm a child and some things and a very high profile the policeman in the country around matters of grooming at least alleged grooming in this particular instance I would like to know from you because

13:42many parents are very busy to take care of the kids and we are too occupied I have view in any way experienced any closeness between your child and someone else who is far older as you miss my red said the child to show up with gifts this person would be endearing themselves to the child and perhaps ask to take them to the zoo or wherever else and again it doesn't look like this person would be a complete stranger it appears as if this often than not is someone who is within your proximity as the family 0183 0702 and you miss how does grooming affect someone late in life because it sounds as if there are some implications psychologically or otherwise later in life yeah that is an interesting question and and it's obviously affects people differently depending

14:44on what the political responses were but what I see often is young children and if they are very confused regarding boundaries you know what is okay and what is not okay and so and that is part of the grooming process is they blur the boundaries of to children of what what is safe and what is unsafe and children might struggle late in life with you know 13 themselves with 10 no to no weem to say no but often also you know sexual torment they might struggle with with their own sexual identity so there's so many things that there's no one right answer to this question but we know that grooming often leads to sexual abuse and we know that the consequence is thick of sexual abuse is you know incredibly hard for people to to deal with the late in life and and have a

15:44lot of we often need psychotherapy to deal with it and law enforcement around this issue units eyes also a point of concern and suppose you can't just walk to the police station and say I suspect this person is grooming my child it takes more than that are we sophisticated enough to respond accordingly legally to groomers especially in the early stages yeah that is incredibly challenging I mean the sexual sense is act section 18 makes the vision for grooming and criminalize it's grooming but it is in practice really difficult to to establish and to prove grooming and it is really a the point is the seismic seismic assessment that needs to take place to understand the context the child's narrative and to gather enough information

16:45evident to prove that grooming happened however the sexual things that the children's act and mandate us to to report anything any suspicion of abuse we need to report to either the police or child wealthy organization and then they need to investigate further however it is really difficult to to investigate and in practice I unfortunately have seen that the systems have failed victims and and and lastly I mean without trying to be philosophical in any way the difference between grooming and manipulation well manipulation is part of a grooming process so it's really something that it's a tactic that perpetrator will use to keep the secret and they often do it really suckle so

17:49that the child doesn't realize that they are being manipulated so for example when a child is doing a really vulnerable perpetrator might buy food they manipulate them into thinking that they really care for them emotionally or for their physical health so I would say that but the manipulation is part of the grooming process and I suppose Eunice what you're seeing is that a strong open communicative relationship between parent and child is important to prevent this of course nothing is 100% proof but if that door of communication is open you are likely to stop it before it goes further absolutely it's crucial and I think our understanding of you know our bodies and and doing away with stigma around sex and talking about sex would really help children to talk to parents when they don't feel shame about sex so they so I think it's come a

18:53long way but they saw a lot of work to be done and I mean in the beginning you did mention institutions and such as family that groomers would even and dare themselves to family members to the home itself and at times at church and we've had cases where at school where sports coaches and others not all of course could become groomers and you would think that this coach really likes my child and you look away because you're thinking it's for the good of the child that this coach has such interest in them because it's mainly about sports and coaching and mentoring but underneath that there could be something else how do you distinguish between the two because generally the amazing coaches and teachers out there who would take a proper like into a child without being groomers how do you drive distinction Eunice that's also difficult and there's no different line but I think that also starts with helping children to

19:53understand boundaries between adults and children and when they feel uncomfortable with any type of conversation or communication with an adult they should tell appearance and I think we should empower children with with some early age with very practical guidance on what is appropriate in a relationship and what is not appropriate what is safe and what is not safe and that will be you know there's no step by step of guide but that will really depend on your relationship with your child. Eunice thanks very much for your insights really appreciated I think we know far better than we did initially I'm hoping that we can have you again on the show to enlighten us further Eunice Mara for Insect Social Worker half past eleven