Learning Blind Tech Interview With Jonathan Simeone On PresentAble

0:00Tapping in the dark gonna find our spark Blind tech magic, fun to love and bark with Deser every day guiding us today Feel the keys and play let the tech light our way Sharkin' in a headcoat we got a thread Smart and leading pass out of words unsaid Scream reader sings it's that new H-bling, loads tech exploring makes our spirits swing Eyes close we're singing, arms beating, believe in together we're achieving no hurdles to see been Deser a leading all the knowledge we're feeding, laughing while we're reading this tech quest succeeded Hi everyone and welcome to today's episode of Learning Blind Tech with Deser a Renee, that's me, I'm glad you joined us today and I'm glad also that it hasn't been quite as long between this episode and the last as it was before my last episode so we're getting better, right progress progress so I have a very special treat for us today and I'm not biased,

1:05well maybe I am a little bit but I also feel like this is a big game changer for a lot of us who are blind who create presentations and I'm not just meaning presentations I mean visually accessible appealing presentations there is a new app out there and it is now available for pre-order and it is through Harch and Consultancy and it was thought of and created by my husband Jonathan Simioni so yeah there's the non-biased part and it is called present able and it basically makes the presentation creation and viewing process accessible to us using jaws so for this episode I did an interview with him and I want to play that for you and then we did a short demonstration of kind of the basics of the app and talk through some of the basic features and there will be more to come on this application as time goes on

2:08as far as walkthroughs and explanations of how the app works but for now I want to play the interview and the demonstration for you and we will go from there. So I am joined today by my awesome Vivecoating extraordinaire husband Jonathan so hello. Hi and thanks for having me on the podcast today. Absolutely thanks for coming. I want to talk about your application called present able so tell us what it is and where it came from and all that good stuff. So present able is an app that a desktop windows app designed to work now with jaws and I'm assuming we'll get into that later but just so people know exactly what it is and it is really designed to give those of us who are blind the ability to create

3:12and review PowerPoint presentations on a desktop app and do everything that we would want to do independently. As a brief bit of background I have created dozens and dozens of presentations in my life for different jobs that I've had and I've presented them to literally thousands of people, almost all of whom given the way the employment world works are cited. So I've been using PowerPoint for well over a decade with jaws and I hate it. I hate it. So I have for a very very long time wanted an accessible way to create PowerPoint presentations that were accessible to those of us who use assistive technologies but professional

4:16looking so they could be shown to audiences and used to share information and I wanted the whole process to be as accessible and inclusive as it could be. And so about two months ago one Saturday morning I was drinking coffee and I was reading on mastodon about more people in our community vibe coding apps for different things. As you know I like tech. I'm kind of nerdy I think that goes for both of us. And I enjoy trying to see what's possible. So I decided I'm going to see if I can do this. You know I'm not the kind of person who's going to start with making a cuckoo clock or something. Like I'm getting a running start hurtling off the diving board. Oh yeah. And trying to see how far I can fly right. And in a week or two I realized that

5:17a lot of what I wanted was actually going to be possible. That with no knowledge of code at all just a really I hope well thought out concept and an idea of what we needed. That with codex from chat GPT coding and me doing extensive testing with jaws. We could wind up with something that was actually going to work and make my hopes of an accessible presentation creation app and review app possible. So it's not like an extension to PowerPoint where you have to open PowerPoint and then open your application and you still use the PowerPoint interface. It's its own interface. It's a standalone completely accessible keyboard driven application that now we'll get into this later. But thanks to Brian Harchins' contributions. It has fabulous braille support which is critical

6:21because I'm primarily a braille user. I love braille and I really wanted braille support. And thanks to Brian we now have I believe incredibly good braille support. So in the past when you created your own PowerPoint presentations would you do them within PowerPoint sometimes or all the time or would you do it other ways? So for years I did them in PowerPoint and then I tried the trick where you can create basic slides with titles and bullets in word and import them as an outline into PowerPoint. It did help some but it was very limiting. You couldn't place images for example you couldn't do speakers notes. It was not a very thorough process. I did image only slides to ensure that they wouldn't have content crowding and those kinds of issues for a long time. But really the truth is whenever I created one I hated it. I felt like

7:26my ability to show the audience who I am and my creativity was really stymied by the inaccessibility of PowerPoint and the lack of accessible presentation creation options in PowerPoint and the inability to really get useful feedback as to how the slides actually looked. And that was a big part of like the testing process was I want the app to tell me okay it's crowded or there's too much text here or that image is too big you need to crop it like all of that exists live in the app. It does. And the other thing that just to continue along the same thread when I first started playing with chat GPT as a tool. I then advanced into having chat GPT create PowerPoint templates for me. I started using chat GPT to help me create file types that I

8:32could reuse. That helped a little but it still left a lot of stuff unchanged. You know there still was no way to fully understand how the images were playing up. How the content was appearing. The templates gave me the ability to control fonts and things like that. But most of what I wanted was still lacking. And so when I was motivated to try this I'm like let's go for the moon. Let's see how much of this stuff I can really include in an app. And personally like my workflow has always been and I showed this last episode and not always but recently has been to have chat GPT literally create the slide deck for me. But you know when I do that and it's fine and it worked I think right I have no idea I had my my images on their own slides and that kind of thing. But I really had no input on anything within like if I wanted to have

9:36even a decorative image. Now not that I did that a lot but if I wanted to I really couldn't have any control over what it looked like. And I could tell chat GPT and then I could have somebody look at it and go out to Ira or whatever and have them review my presentation. But you know I really didn't have any personal idea of how it looked or how it was on the screen. No and if I could just as I found out when I started using presentable I'm very wordy. But if I could just tell a quick story. Sure. There's a presentation on disability equity. As you know I've given this presentation a lot over the last few years. Probably two hundreds and hundreds of exclusively cited audiences. And I you know never felt fully good about it because I knew of the limitations and I did a lot of things to ask people. I asked cited colleagues of mine how it

10:41looked. I asked people when I gave the presentation for feedback. You know one of the questions I asked was you know how do the slides appear visually. I even called Ira and asked for assistance in telling me how does this look and if there are problems can you help me fix them. I did all of those things. And when I ran this presentation through presentable my 24 slide presentation had 28 errors and warnings. So I realized then that I wasn't delivering the kind of trainings I wanted to. I wasn't showing people my own ability. Things didn't look the way they should have. And a lot of cited people were giving me a pass because I'm blind. Or maybe it's just because they didn't know like they're thinking oh it looks fine to me. Yeah that could be. I hate that though. I do too. Yeah. And the other thing that I discovered from this experience is that a lot of

11:47cited people will not give you what they consider maybe critical feedback. And a lot of people if you ask them to help you fix it either aren't interested in doing everything that that means. Or you coming back to your point don't know how to use PowerPoint themselves well enough to help you fix it. And so I realized then that we need to have something that lets us do this on our own. And it's not just the creation of the PowerPoint as either it's you can actually take someone else's PowerPoint and import it into this application and receive the same kind of information about those slides. And also just follow along with them if they're presenting using that PowerPoint and have accessibility at your fingertips literally with the braille for other people's PowerPoint presentations. That's correct. I mean one of the things it wasn't to me going to be good enough

12:54to just create things. When I was working at different jobs I would often go to other people's trainings and presentations myself. And they would send me largely inaccessible presentations. And so I wanted the app to also give me the ability to import PowerPoint presentations and apply all of the accessibility functionality that the app has to those. And you know the other day you actually had a chance to test someone else. Yes I did. In real time in an actual session with someone else's PowerPoint. And I was able to easily get to the speaker notes. I didn't have to mess around with the PowerPoint put it in slide show mode. Oh wait I need the speaker notes. I got a F6 and do all the vanagling that we have to do in PowerPoint to just get the information. And so I wasn't distracted during the presentation by all of that. I was actually able to follow along

13:54with them in the slides and get a good list of them in Braille and all of that without even opening it in PowerPoint. So it was fabulous. And because of that I guess you said you know this is offered mainly for JAWS users. Why did you make that decision? When I started creating the app I had no idea if it would even be successful. I never vibed coded anything in my life. I had no expectations other than I want to try this. And as it started growing and I started to see its potential and what I could actually achieve working with codex. My original thought honestly was I'm going to probably just make this available free to people and let any screen reader use it. That was my original intent once I realized it could actually be something. Then as you know because we both tested it with NVDA. NVDA really didn't work well with the app. And I think that's related to the fact

15:06that NVDA just doesn't support office in nearly the same way that JAWS does. And the other issue is that the NVDA Braille support just wasn't what I wanted or needed. And and that's generally you know NVDA doesn't have the same level of Braille support that JAWS does even without Brian's scripting. It just it doesn't. And so when I realized that the app wasn't going to work well in NVDA and that the Braille wasn't going to be what I wanted because you know I started down this road because I wanted an app that I could use. I wasn't in the outset trying to create something anybody but me could use. And maybe me if I wanted to. But the thing is it for me it had to have robust Braille support. And so when I realized that NVDA just wasn't capable

16:09of doing those things. And that's not a slight on NVDA. It's just the reality of where it is. Well, and I think also you know NVDA doesn't necessarily easily allow for keyboard customization. So you know you can program a lot of Windows specific shortcut keys and you have done that. But when it comes to more specialized things where you want it to announce certain things are move your Braille display to certain places on the screen. NVDA doesn't necessarily allow for that kind of tight customization yet. No. And so that's the reality of it. I didn't set out to make a JAWS only application. I actually wanted when I first started considering giving it to people every screen reader to use it. But that wasn't going to be possible. And especially not to the level that I wanted the app to be for my workflow. Yeah. And most people you know who are in the office

17:11professional environment they need to tell their employers look I really need JAWS. Yeah. Because right now even though we don't like it. I'll be right up front. I don't always like that. I have to use you know JAWS. Like I wish oh look I wish I could use narrator and NVDA and those resources more often. But right now where we are is that those screen readers aren't quite up to par to make it more efficient for us to do. Yeah. I agree 100% and and I think that that's the you know if someone is going to regularly use this app there. I mean I would say an overwhelming number of people who have a need for this app are JAWS users. And you went through like a lot of time and testing and working through and it still continues right it's it's not like a one and done thing. I download this app or maybe I pre-order it it's up for pre-order now. And then you know

18:15I've got it but you continually offer you know testing refining and even through Harch and consultancy tech support. So just to briefly get into that. I have been using Brian's products for a long time. Years and years. I love Brian's work in my opinion just speaking for myself. I think Brian is the best at what he does. He's the best in the field at scripting things and making them fully accessible and workable for those of us who are blind. And in going through this process I learned to appreciate why Brian insists on tying his products to JAWS. I understand that in a much deeper way than I did before. But so when I realized I was getting I wanted people to look at it. I started posting about what I was doing on mastodon and one of the reasons not the only but

19:22one of the reasons was I was hoping that Brian would be interested in testing it for me and telling me what he thought of the app. Because I really do admire and respect his professional opinion and his ability. I even told him when he was interested in testing it you know that I'm really excited to see what he says. But there's a part of me that's a little nervous too. Because I know the high standards that he has. And I appreciate why he does and I benefit every day from using the products of his that I use. Because he has high standards. You know that benefits me as a customer. And now as a partner of his on this project I not only benefit from that but I need to hold myself in the app to those standards that he said. You know I want people who buy this app from Harch and consultancy to know and to really feel that they have the same level of access and

20:29usability and high standards that they've come. You know we've all grown used to from his products. And so when he wrote back and said you know this app is fantastic. I think you should consider selling it. I don't think you know it's not my decision but I don't think you should give it away. Yeah a lot of time and resources. A lot of it and continue to be. And you know I might sell late nights and all kinds of things. I mean I've you know I've probably spent more than a day of my life working on this app at least and a few hundred dollars already. Yeah. Yeah. And the reality of it is for me to continue adding features we already have some really exciting ideas for version two. Yes. And to keep testing them and developing them to ensure they meet those high standards it costs money. And it takes a lot of time. And when Brian you know asked if he could work with me

21:33on it and volunteer to help me sell the app that was a big deal because I don't have a web store. I don't know how to sell things right. And when he said you know and I can provide tech support that really you know to me was a clincher because I just being honest about myself I'm not sure that would be my strong suit. And so it is. And the documentation in the app is in the guide and all of that stuff is coming along. And that takes time to write those. You know you could tell AI to do it for you. But you're not going to get the same quality. The same personalization of okay, Jaws is going to do this. Or you know if this happens then this is what it's doing. You know so those kind of things you have to really manually do and write and he's done that. Yeah, the documentation that he and that's all Brian. Yeah. The documentation is all Brian and it's incredible detailed documentation exactly what

22:40those of us who use Leacy and other products of his have come to count on. Yes. And thanks to him presentable now has that level of help available to people. That's awesome. So I mean it's way exciting. I know that you have gotten and both of us have gotten kind of in it with all this pipe coating stuff. And you know the things that I'm doing are more you know I don't know if I would have taken on this level of you know because because images and slides and placements and all of those things are so complex. And so the fact that this is out there and continues to be refined every day. But I think people you know those of us who are vibe coating in the blindness community are largely doing it to meet needs that we have. Yeah. And that we've had for a long time like you say. And I've had this need for well over a

23:42decade. Yeah. And that was my driving motivation behind doing it. You know if someone hardly ever uses PowerPoint they would never develop this. Right. You know. And I think that's what makes vibe coating such a fascinating thing for our community is we have the ability now to solve our own digital access barriers in a way that we never could have done without AI. And that's two reasons. One is you know because AI can do the coating. But for people who want to the app has advanced features where if you have an open AI chat GPT API key the app can even provide greater assistance in ensuring the accessibility and the visual presentation of your slides. You can create an entire project and do it very well without an open AI key. Yes. But there are

24:49extra features that really do enhance the process if you want to buy an API key put it in the app and use it. And it's all in the app so you don't have to go out and okay I'm going to import this into my own version of you know chat GPT or whatever it's built in to the app so everything is done within the app itself. And the app has been customized so that the prompts that are sent with the request whether it be review this slide or generate me an image or tell me what my all text should be the prompts that have been customized within the app really return very high quality feedback. But it's important for people to know that it's not just like you put in an API key and a text field pops up and you have to type in your entire prompt. The app does a lot of really cool behind the

25:53scene stuff to ensure that the response you get from open AI gives you all of the information you need to address the issue that you're asking open AI to address. And you use less tokens that way too. Well I wanted to just take a few minutes now to kind of briefly look at the application because I've been sort of helping with the testing process. I have the application on my desktop right now. And so I just want to do that with you here so that I can go through as I would being a user not a developer and develop the app. But in that way if you have any clarifications or questions as we go through it you can do that. So I will take a backseat unless something unless something comes up. I'm happy driver. I'm happy. I'm happy to do that. Okay so I'm opening the app now. And able new presentation dot dot dot button to activate press spacebar control plus N.

26:56So the first thing I come on is I can create a new presentation and it told me that there is a shortcut key available for that. You have different modes in here so you can have things customized on what you want announced and all of that and that's kind of a deeper thing we can go into at some point but just basically and if I'm just going to tab around here here open presentation dot dot button to activate press space presentation plus oh import presentation dot dot button to activate press spacebar old plus I and I can import so that's where you would go in to import it from an existing PowerPoint. This is probably beyond the scope but just so people know you can import markdown files. You can import word files. Oh not just PowerPoints that are already done. And the reason you can do that and we'll probably talk more about this next time but just so people get a taste of it. If you want you can especially using markdown largely create a presentation in a text editor

28:00and import your markdown file here you can do some of that with word because of the limitations of word and the fact that you can't obviously we can't customize word settings. The word import functions are less robust than the markdown functions but you can do that and I'll be honest because of my experiences with PowerPoint when I started doing this I thought my workflow was going to be write the whole presentation as much as I could in markdown import my presentation let it do the slides and then I would do the image stuff or whatever else I had to do check my warnings and errors if I had any in the app right. But I knew that not everyone knows markdown not everyone's comfortable with it. So right from the outset I built in the ability to actually create the presentation in the app and why what discovered over weeks of playing with

29:04this thing is that I really like creating the presentation in the app itself. And so I'm leaving the markdown there because people may want it I may want it. Well you may already have things created that you've done in markdown. So you can alter those and you can actually now because of some of the customization you did is you can add your speaker notes in the markdown file. So we have added some things that don't appear in markdown and all of this is explained in Brian's documentation. But I did add some extra commands so that the app knows for example that certain blocks of text are to go in the speaker's notes or that I want this layout of slide type or this is where I want an image or if you have the image saved on your computer you can even put a link to it and the app will put the image in the slide where you want it. So there's a lot of ability with markdown if

30:09somebody wants to do that it's still there. And with some of the presentations I've already done I did start those in markdown. And so I can still use those without having to retive everything. Yes. But I really enjoy the original creation inside the app. Yeah I did I did a whole presentation I actually for something I vibe coded for work. And I created the whole thing in the app. Yeah. And it was really a pleasant experience and we'll we'll see that as we show them how easy it is to create slides and things new from template dot dot dot button to activate press spacebar. Also, I we don't need to get into each of these I just kind of wanted to tab through and let people know what the options were but they can be definitely explained in a deeper context. Yeah. At a later point. Recent presentations list box developing accessible adlation app one of two. That's my my presentation that I created open selected presentation button to activate new presentation dot dot dot and then I get back to new presentation. So if I press enter on new

31:11presentation presentation name presentation name at it. I can just name it testing for LBT learning blind tech save button to activate save presentation created at a slide to begin add slide dot dot dot button to activate press and then you're at your where you can literally add your very first slide. So if I press enter here slide dialog slide type slide type list box you get the type. So this is where you can pick kind of the layout of the slide. You can have a title slide title slide which is my first slide. So I probably would pick that title in below or you have title in bullets text only three of 12 text only image only image only image left text right five of 12 image left text right which is what I use a lot for to put my little picture of something and then the text in bullets text left image right six of twelve large image left short text right now you can have a bigger image if you know the measurements of your image and you know it's bigger you can have that one. Short text left large image right eight of twelve table nine of twelve you can do a table title and

32:13video ten of twelve title and video video left text right eleven of twelve text left video right twelve of twelve so there's all of these awesome choices within this layout and I'm sure you know there may even be more added at some point who knows but for now it's it's going to be a title slide testing for lbt star present able slide title edit type in text and I can just call it same thing as the lbt layout combo box title slide content tab selected switch pages now content items list box zero items right now it's just a title slide so I don't really have content and bullet dot dot dot button but I could add you know if it was a different type of slide I could add the text at the bullets edit dot dot button edit remove item button move button move down button add link dot dot button link properties dot dot dot slide all of these options so presentation name at it testing for L slides list box one testing for lbt title slide so that's my title slide right there now if I want to do another new one add slide dialogue slide type I can do control shift N and just type in

33:20my layout maybe I want image image left image text title in bullets text own title in bullets two of would you recommend title in bullets or text I would I most of the time if if you know PowerPoint presentations most of the slides are title in bullets unless you're incorporating an image or video most of the time you're going to use title in bullets okay slide added testing for lbt added that one slide title edit and I'll just call it slide one or slide yeah just slide title in bullets content tab selected to switch from here you can you can go into the content speaker notes tab selected you just switch speaker notes content or the content so if you wanted to add your speaker notes you could go to that tab and add them content items list box zero items no items right now because I haven't added a bullet yet add bullet dot dot dot button to activate press space bar control plus shift plus B okay so control shift B I'll know that next time I can just do that shortcut key add bullet data of bullet text edit type in old and I'm going to write R w a long

34:25sentence because you know I can be wordy too and then what to save it save button to activate press space bar to save or alt test content item added content and list box just as a quick point of clarification when you save the bullet you're saving it into the presentation the presentation itself is not saved and you haven't saved this yet I have not so I if you're going to really present able project dialogue yeah control S always you know what that would have been really bad see I'm going to actually it already has a title it's got it's got the project saved list box testing for lbt present able content items list box so now it's been saved let's say I want to I mean this is so easy to just add bullet dialog text text edit type in list content item added content items list box content items two of two to move so I have two bullets here and now if I slice list box want to just list my slides for lbt title slide one of two that's my title slide two

35:28slide one title in bullets two of two items list box and you see how quickly you can you can see your slide list and go back and forth two three slide two image left text right one warning three of three hours of warning so so now if I want to check my warnings what would I what would I need to hear from the slide you can hit alt control shift to w checks finish an outstanding result zero reviewed severity combo box all one result one of six to change the selection you see arrow keys so right now you're in a dialogue where you can filter the results okay you know you can filter by different things all is obviously everything you can filter by errors which is this is definitely going to be a violation error zero two of six you can go down to warning there's warning yeah and so now so we have the ones selected if you tab from here results list box warning slide three estimated text close to the right edge one of one to move to an item press the arrow keys so from here you can if you want to find out more about the warning you can tab to

36:31the details button to result details dialogue report report read only edit use your reading keys to and then it immediately takes you into this report one slide three estimated text close to the right edge blank content items two at least one estimated line uses 90 percent or more of the available with this is a prompt to review the text not proof that it is cut off port in the line use a wider text layout or confirm its fit with export and analyze so it says it's 90 percent I I would guess one of them might have been more than that yeah and I think it I think it's flagging the second bullet I think it said content item two maybe so if you tab again okay copy report button to activate the space bar old plus oh keep going close button close to activate space okay testing for LBT presentable go to item button to activate the short cut key F8 so hit the space bar edit testing for LBT type of text content items list box two bullet I like to run on and on and on two of two to move to an item press the arrow keys so now if it takes you right to

37:33the item it thinks is too long okay so a workflow here could be I can either go in right now and shorten this bullet I can edit it shorten it and save it again or if if this was text where you're like no I really like the way I said it it's 90 percent or so of the slide maybe it still looks okay right so you can either export and analyze with PowerPoint and PowerPoint will the report it generates will then tell you if it's too close to the edge if it thinks it is it's not over because if it was over the edge you'd get an error but one of the things I like to do is if I have a slide that I really like and I don't want to change it I use the review slide with open AI and it gives you a very detailed report of what's actually happening now in this case because the bullets are not related to anything and nonsense yeah the report will have as much valuable

38:38information but it still will tell you is this slide readable and that's the key it will tell you is the content crowded is this you know actually hanging over its edge so if if you don't have open AI and you don't want it you can export this to PowerPoint and PowerPoint will do the measuring and it will tell you exactly how much of the slide is left given the length of this bullet or now will it open it open PowerPoint so the app will create a PowerPoint presentation which ultimately you'll need to do anyway at the end yes but it will create one now based on what you have and it will analyze all of the slides in your presentation and give you the same errors warnings the same five categories that generally come up the sixth category is a review and so what I want to say is so let's say I took this slide and I ran it through PowerPoint and PowerPoint said you

39:45know it's it's actually using this percentage of the line and it still fits and we're all fine right I could mark this slide as reviewed and then subsequent checks would not flag it as a warning and so if you fix if you say I like it this way and you know PowerPoint says it fits you can market as reviewed and go on to the rest of your presentation and any accessibility checker you run whether it be in the app or through PowerPoint will not flag the issue as a warning any longer so can you export and analyze one slide only and not not export the whole thing as a presentation you can export one slide or a you can select three or four slides and export them there it's a little different in the sense of if you're exporting anything less than the presentation like if I export one slide or I select three slides and export those it doesn't actually create a

40:51savable presentation on your hard drive it and creates a temporary copy that it then analyzes the reason that I went with that approach is if I'm analyzing a slide I don't want like 12 different slides saved on my computer right but if I'm exporting and analyzing the entire presentation you know at some point I need that as a power so it will actually create the whole presentation but what you can do is if you you know if you create five slides and you export and analyze and you fix things and then you come back to it later and you add seven more slides let's say and you export and analyze again in the save as dialogue because it will automatically use the file name of the presentation of the project to create the PowerPoint right you can just if you want you can click the yes button and just override the PowerPoint that's already saved yeah for some

41:52reason you want both versions just give this new PowerPoint a different file name interesting so clearly a ton of thought and there is definitely you know some some learning that would need to be done for someone who is even if they're experienced using PowerPoint you know they need to go through the documentation and really learn how the app works because there's been a lot of thought put in wait where you don't you don't know those features are there yeah then you won't realize what they do and how to use them so there's a lot there that people but there's only go and reference help in the app oh yes there's a lot of context sensitive help people can use if you run the app and what we call guided mode like we're doing it will announce the shortcut keys and things as you get used to the app I'll be honest I've been using the app long enough that I've already personally switched over to standard mode because I don't want to hear all this all the time yeah but if you want to

42:58just start you don't have to think oh god I have to read 150 pages of help right you don't there's help within the app there's a lot of context sensitive help and so if you encounter something you're like oh no what is this how do I do you can go to the help that you need that's related to the task you're doing yeah and if you're just you know just getting started and creating a basic presentation for the first time you can do it with confidence if it's just titles and bullets yeah and and pretty much know that what you create is going to be not only accessible for readability for people to read it but also it's going to look professional and it's going to look good one more thing I want to mention because just well two I'm worthy like we established you know there are two things I want people to because this was not only designed to be fully accessible to us but it was designed to

44:00create fully accessible presentations that we could use if we got them in PowerPoint form ourselves the app has a reading order option so if if you're creating a text with image and bullets for example and you want the screen reader to announce the bullets first you can make it do that if you want it to announce the image first you can make the app do that it'll create it in such a way that the visual layout of the app will be exactly what cited people expected to be in PowerPoint but when the screen reader encounters the slide the screen reader user instead of just getting the information as PowerPoint has laid it out on the screen we'll hear the information in the order that you want them to hear it and so that to me is really cool yeah the other thing is

45:06and this is just me being you know me the app will not let you sport with to PowerPoint unless all your images have all text well yeah unless you mark them as decorative or decorative yeah you can mark them I honestly forgot that because I don't think I'll ever do it but it is there if there's a circumstance that people want to mark something as decorative you can sometimes you have to if you're using like the company logos or their templates I guess you have to create your own reusable slide that's based on your company template yeah they would have a lot of decorative I candy and some rice watermark and so but anyway the app will not let you create a presentation unless there's all text or the images marked as decorative well there is so much even you know for me to play with and learn and I think as you need different features you know you you may do a presentation where you really want to put links or videos or different things in and you have

46:11the ability to learn how to do that as you need it and that's the beauty of it too well thank you so much and thanks for all your hard work on this I mean I know personally just from witnessing all the work that's been going in always hearing that test this test that pass this no that doesn't pass do it again and and having done my own sort of vibe coding and understand the testing that that is a big part of it it is to make sure that whatever feature you have it code works that's your setup and you've done a lot of that work already for for people so that the app works and is responsive so it's really awesome so thank you for coming on today and I really appreciate it and I look forward to using the app more and you know all of the new features that'll be coming for it and and I'll look that so thank you for having me and I will be back for the next episode yes absolutely sounds good all right so hopefully everyone enjoyed that I know I enjoyed doing it as well as

47:15getting to know present able a little better and I have actually created a full presentation for work using present able and I am getting ready this coming week to present that to my team my manager and possibly some other teams within Pearson so I'm very excited about that and I was able to put images and videos and all kinds of great stuff in my presentation and I'm very confident that it is accessible and readable and all of that so I am so thankful for this new application and I'm excited to see what it will be in the future and so stay tuned to Harch and consultancy for all of the updates and all of that good information about present able I thank you for joining me today on learning blind tech and I look forward to seeing everyone on the next episode