Jill Schulman - A Marine Veteran Explains How to Conquer Fear - E217

0:00Kitchen and bathroom professionals know what goes behind the tile matters. That's why TradePros trust Fiber cement party backer board to keep tile firmly in place, resist cracking, and help block moisture. Chosen in over 40 million kitchen and bathrooms, party backer board, what the best build on. Shop now at participating Home Depot, Lowe's, and floor into core stores. For more information, visit JamesHearty.com slash HeartyBacker. What if everything that you've been told about courage is wrong? And confidence isn't something that you feel before you act, but something that you build after you act. My guest today was one of the first women to lead in Marine Corp's combat engineering. She then went on to train more than 30,000 leaders around one idea. Confidence does not create action. Action creates confidence. Jill Shalman, Welcome to the Dragonslayer.

1:00Have you noticed that the world that we live in has been doing most of the thinking for you, that your beliefs, perceptions, reactions, fears, and doubts have been shaped by unsolicited, outside noise? How easy it's been for you to slip into that default sleep walking mode and label it as life and reality. Yeah, that ends here. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. This is your opportunity to start thinking for yourself, reclaim control, and step back into that role as the shot caller and dominant force of your own reality. It's when you change the way that you look at things, that the things that you look at begin to change. So let's wake up, let's rise up, and let's make sense of why and how shift happens. Make sense. My first question to you is one that I ask most of my guests is, what's it like to be Jill Shalman these days? These days, I would say it feels like I've never been busier and my life has never been more

2:06full than it is now. I am in the center in complete stillness. Like the eye of the storm. I have never been in more alignment with what my purpose is. And I feel like I've always been there throughout my career from my time in the Marine Corps to my corporate work. I keep taking that next step. Now that I'm doing what I'm doing now, I'm just in this beautiful alignment that I've never felt before. Like, you know, when you just know this is what I meant to do, and so everything I do, like I enjoy it, I'm passionate about it. So that's what it feels like to be Jill Shalman. I refer to that as a healthy obsession. Yeah, I've had people say like, hey, man, you might want to take a break. You're a little obsessed with that. And I would be like, I'm glad that you noticed. Because. Yes, it reminds me my brother and I were talking once and he's like, when are you ever going to slow down? I might do it. I hope never because I am like, I love what I do. And I think part of this is the example of my parents, like my parents had a job to make money. And they counted the days to retirement because they couldn't wait to not do what they're

3:07living for. And that was such a profound example for me when I was young because I didn't want that. So I feel so lucky for what you're doing and what I'm doing. Like the thought of not doing what I'm doing or retiring sounds miserable because I love what I'm doing. Like do I want to maybe at some point take a few more vacations, but I feel so lucky that I have this healthy obsession. This would be an interesting question for you because the perception from the outside in is that you're obsessed and when you're going to take a break and all of that stuff, when are you going to slow down? But what that person doesn't know is that you have actually slowed down quite a bit, but just with other things because here you are in the perfect place doing exactly what you love. I would assume that you've done quite a bit of pruning and some shedding of other shit that doesn't matter. So what have you eradicated from your life? Yeah, that's such a great question because two years ago, I had a moment where I had to decide, like if I keep doing the same things I've done,

4:07won't create the space for really what I want to do. So I had to make this hard decision and it was scary talking from the bravery expert here, the science of bravery expert. I had to decide to start saying no to the work that I had done in the past, at least the volume of work. Right now I focus on the science of bravery and I speak and I write and I teach people how to be brave, but before that I have a company and I do leadership development workshops for companies and it's great work, it's meaningful work. I say it's very good. I was at the top of my game so I would book out a year in advance to do teaching people how to be effective leader. So again, it's it was really good, but what I realized that sometimes you can let good get in the way of great or extraordinary. So if I wanted to level up, I needed to stop doing this very good work and so I had to make this decision to start blocking out time in my calendar to not say yes to that because if not the entire year gets booked out and I'm doing the same thing. So very scary from someone that this is what pays the mortgage to not take these huge contracts for

5:09hundreds of thousands of dollars per company to do all these, for me to say no to that. What's been a wonderful, I guess, surprise is I have helped other people who are like the Jill of 15 years ago, where I was just getting started in leadership development. Now I'm giving them an opportunity to do the leadership development work for my company. I'm basically shifting the business of doing the leadership development and developing other people that are so excited to do that work, allowing me to really focus here. So think about this concept of how sometimes when we have a good job or things are good or fine and and then soon as we get a message like we should just have gratitude, we should just be thankful and be completely happy where we are and I don't think that is true. I think when we have these dreams and visions when we find that alignment, we have to sometimes start pruning as you're saying and saying no to things that could be good and I think it's even harder when things are really shitty and fucked up, it's easy to say like well I'm gonna stop doing that. And that says a lot about a person where you take something that you've worked so hard to

6:12create that you're so good at. It's like easy money because you'd probably do it for free and let somebody else do that. That's a big moment in your life. That's what a true leader is, is not somebody that just creates a following. It's that somebody that raises other people up as well. And then you got to step in at the right time with those people and say hey get your shit together because there's a next step. Take us back to the Marine Corps because you know that is a fascinating part of not only your past but your process as well. I believe that you said you didn't think that you'd make it. So what is it that I taught you about overcoming fear when you feel completely out of your depth out of your element? So it's been a while since I've been in the Marine Corps of it. If I take you back to when I was 18 years old, part of the reason I decided to go down the Marine Corps route was a couple of reasons. Number one is I wanted a life purpose or I wanted a career purpose and that gave it to me and my grandfather was a Marine as well. It also gave me free college. But when I showed up to San Diego, California to start my journey to earn the title of United States Marine, I actually was feeling pretty confident. I think when I got on the plane but when

7:14I showed up on the first day, I had no idea what I was in for. I was prepared. In fact, I can tell you just a funny thing. Like I put a lot of thought because I was an 18 year old girl into my outfit because how do I make a good first impression? And I was reporting not into boot camp. I was reporting into the reserve officer training course. So the college route to go to college as a midshipman and then come out and officer on the other side. I did research. You can't wear jeans as officers in the Marine Corps. You're not allowed to and like, what do you wear as a kid if you can't wear jeans? And then I didn't want to wear a dress because it would be too girly. I actually showed up in these long silk shorts with a matching shirt, but it was hot pink with white polka dots. And that was and that was something you thought through. I thought through and I thought I was looking so professional. So I think it's kind of a stunt double to L from legally blonde. That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah. So that was me and then anything you know about Marine Corps, what you've seen in the movies or boot camp and that was my first day. So I showed up kind of feeling like I got this full ride. I got a full scholarship on the Marine Corps. They recruited me at the

8:15University of San Diego to use my scholarship there. So I was feeling pretty confident. I got there and they know how to knock down that conflict right away. On my first day, I realized I didn't fit. I didn't look like anyone else and that first day I actually had someone laugh at me and never class me. It's like you will never make it as a Marine. And I think a little part of me wondered is he right? I think he was trying to haze me and maybe try to fire me up because you know what? Sometimes when you tell someone they're never going to be able to do it. Sometimes you let that get into your mind and you believe it. But for me, it kind of fired me up. I can't think you want to prove him wrong. So the thing I learned in the Marine Corps that relates to my research on bravery is sometimes bravery is these heroic moments. Isn't that what we think from the movies? Right? It is running into a bringing building. We think of heroic moments. That's what bravery is. But what I discovered in my journey is bravery is little moments. And this is what the research really tells us that you can build bravery in a lot of little moments. So for me, I had that first day, my first

9:16Friday was even worse because I couldn't keep up in a run. And that is there's nothing more shameful as a Marine if you can't keep up in the runs because I grew up in Minnesota. Do you know what the topography is like in Minnesota? It is flat. So the little training I did to run flat. What was that? Was there an element though of the female component as well? You know, like I would assume you weren't the only one, but you're supposed to be able to prove that you can keep up with a man. And was there that stuff too? Yeah, I mean, but that's one of the things that made it harder. Because if I really think about that moment, a lot of the people that I was running with, these are people that were actually enlisted in the Marine Corps. They were the top performing enlisted Marines. So they were given an assignment to go to the University becoming an officer. So a lot of people I was running with, they've been Marines for four to six years. Right? So they have that experience. Like I'm 18, but then there were some of us that came in 18 and we were the midshipments. So we weren't prior Marines. And there was one other female. It was me and one other female. And the rest of them were males and three of them ran cross country in high school. So

10:19like I was kind of out of my element. But so to answer your question about the female thing, as a Marine to be successful as a Marine, if you keep using like, well, I'm a girl, like you're not going to be successful. One of the things that made me the most successful in the Marine Corps is I didn't hold myself to the female standard. I held myself to the standard of Marines. And it took me a long time. It took bravery for me to keep showing up because I failed that first Friday and the first full year. I couldn't keep up getting up the hills, but I kept showing up and kept working at it. And eventually I was able to keep up. And I held myself to the male standard. And because I did, I thrived. So I usually talk to like my audiences when I speak, especially I get asked a lot of times to speak at women's events. And I'm like, all right, careful. If you want me to speak at a woman's event, here's my message. It's not going to say like, what was you? You're a girl. I'm going to say, focus on your competence. Be the best at your job. Be the very best at whatever it is. And then your confidence will follow. So if you're competent and you're confident, you are going to soar. So that's what I focused on as a Marine. Like I just kept working on the skill. And

11:21if you keep working on the skill, right, even though it's scary because you might fail, but for me failing and failing and failing, I eventually emerged really strong. And so the end of this story, me being so pitiful, showing up as an 18 year old, by the time I got to officer candidate school, that's between your junior and senior year. If you don't make it through officer candidate school, it's like bootcamp for officers. You don't make it. I ended up being the top finisher from my school. So the enlisted Marines go like, we all have to go like, I outperformed everyone my ranking, females and males and that other female in my unit, she quit after the first year. So I was the only one left, right? So and I share that not to impress anyone, but it's just impress upon your audience. Like what I discovered back then, I didn't realize until I studied it in psychology, is that many times what bravery means for all of us, it's showing up when we're scared and no one else knows that we're scared. And it's doing that again and again, that really builds that bravery muscle, that builds that confidence and self efficacy over time. I love that. My name is Shannon

12:23Maldonado. I'm the founder of Yahweh, a gift shop from the lens of artists and handmade objects. I chose Shopify because when I was testing other platforms, it was definitely one of the most user friendly. It was important to me to think about where we would be in the future. All of the tools for reading your sales like planning inventory, they're just right there on your dashboard. For anyone starting a small business, the biggest thing I can tell you, it doesn't have to be perfect, Shopify can help you build upon it. Start your free trial on Shopify.com. And I believe you were one of the first or the first women officers in combat engineering. Just explain what that is and because that's a big accomplishment. Yeah, so this was back in, I'm dating myself here. I was commissioned in 1996. I graduated college. So basically at the end of 96, they had just opened up this combat military occupational specialty, so a job of combat engineering. At the time, I was on the East Coast going through something called the basic school in Quantico, Virginia, where you go through six months of hell.

13:24The hardest thing I did in the Marine Corps was that six months. It is all Marine Officers know what I'm talking about. It's called TVS or the basic school. You go through that and then you you are ranked from the number one Marine officer down to 300 and based on your ranking, you get to choose your MLS. This MLS opened up. So combat engineering, the mission is it's mobility and counter mobility. So when we're pursuing the enemy and there's obstacles in the way, it's the job of the engineers. We go engineers up and engineers breach obstacles. So that means we breach minefields. We will, sometimes we'll build a bridge or we have even floating bridges. So any time we're pursuing the enemy, engineers up, breach whatever obstacles are in the way. We also have the counter mobility. So when we're in a defensive posture, it's actually such a fun. How do you make it harder impossible for the enemy to get to get to us? So we build the obstacles. We blow up the bridges. So we get to build stuff and blow shit up. So I thought I get to be one of the first women to be in charge of demolitions and blowing shit up. Sign me up. So I went for it.

14:26And also clearing the path for safety for others. I mean, what a fulfilling thing to do to blow shit up. But then also create a path for everybody else. And then very strategic and very much involved in the mission. That's cool. And when I reported into my first unit, it was kind of interesting because like the company commander was kind of looking at me like we've never had a female in our company before. And then I was going to be assigned as a platoon commander. So even my Marines are looking up going like what? I am so thankful that my first company commander was a gentleman. His name is Wayne Sinclair. I'm still in touch with him today. Back to the question about you're one of the female standards. So he didn't treat many different. One of the first things he told me goes all lieutenants when they report in we go on the boxing ring because you need to learn how to get punched in the face. I'm like, right, I'm so bring it. But he's right. Because in a combat situation, like you don't want to get punched in the face for the first time. You need to know what that feels like. So you can keep fun. You keep moving on. So I appreciated

15:26him so much because he could have said, oh, we have a girl here now. We're not going to do the boxing thing anymore. But he held me to the same standard. He pushed me. And because of that, I had a really successful career in the ring court before I decided to get out. And it was because of him. That is such a fascinating way to look at that level of training. You know, most people would think I'm going to go learn how to box with meaning. I'm going to learn how to be a good fighter and punch people in the face. But to put somebody in the ring and say, I want you to learn how to get punched in the face. Keep going. What an analogy of life somebody things were probably going to get into about bravery and fearlessness and things like that. It's not about evading problems. It's about learning how to have a different relationship with them, perhaps, in part of your training. So this is really fascinating to me. And I don't know what happened in this gap. But after the Marines, you go and study a pen under Martin Seligman. So I'd love to know how that happened. But also what made you want to turn bravery, which was more of a physical thing

16:27than anything, you know, at this point, but turn it into like an actual science instead of just like this personal story. What happened there and how did you end up there? So the reason I ended up going to the University of Pennsylvania to study psychology under Marty Seligman, the basically the founder of part of psychology is at the time I had left the Marine Corps. I sold drugs, the legal kind in Pharma. So I spent 13 years in Pharma, moved up at a great career there and did the last thing I did inside a company was doing leadership development. So I started my own company doing leadership development. And then the reason I studied positive psychology is after having my company for like eight or nine years and doing so much work, which is the human side of performance. I go into companies and help with, you know, how do we drive results based on motivating and sparing humans to perform their best? I mean, that's what leadership's about. And someone sent me a TEDx talk of a guy named Sean Acre. I don't know if you've heard of him. Sean Acre wrote a book called the Happiness Advantage. So I watched this TEDx and he describes this thing called the Happiness Equation. He goes, most of us get it wrong. He goes, most people think that once you achieve a goal,

17:32then you become happy. That is backwards. That's not what the science says. It's when you find positive emotions and experience happiness on the journey. That's how you achieve the goal. And I just, I mean, this is what his TEDx was about. And it was kind of like one of those moments where I was like, this is amazing. So then I got his book and then I read his book. And it's all about the science of positive psychology. And it was new and novel. I'm one of these nerds. Like, I become curious. I read all the references in the back of the book. So then I bought more books. And I just started reading and reading. And I'm like, this field of positive psychology is fascinating. Then I found out you can get a master's degree. Basically, it's a study of happiness and elevating well-being and flourishing in life. I'm like, I'm in. And I mean, who knows? I thought there was probably a very slim chance that it actually get into the program. But sometimes being brave is you just, you go for it and see what happened. So somehow I got in the program. And then when you go through this program, you learn, you know, when you earn a master's, you have to learn everything about the field and demonstrate your confidence. But then at the end of the program, they want you to

18:35take a deep dive in the one area that you have the deepest interest that you want to do more research. So for me, as I was going through the program, I mean, I loved everything that I learned. But when I discovered how fear is a blocker of people flourishing in life, living their best life, that is what I became really interested in. You wanted to do some demolition on the fear. I wanted to do some demolition on the fear, especially because at the time it was during at the end of COVID, I have two teenage daughters. You know, we see the young generation like highest levels of anxiety and depression. Two things led me down the bravery thing. Number one is when you look at experiential voidens, so all the literature where we study people who avoid what they fear. So their studies were, they're longitudinal, like thousands of people adults are followed over four years and we track, like, you know, when there's something that is uncomfortable or scary, do they approach or do they avoid? So people that avoid things that scare them where they're uncomfortable. It led to the development and sustainment of anxiety and depression. And I've got young girls. So I'm like, okay,

19:39that is the problem. What is the antidote? And so the second thing that pushed me over the edge is there's an author named Jonathan Hate. You heard of him. Jonathan Hate wrote a book called the anxious generation. He's done a lot of research on kind of like anti-fragility and so he came and lectured to us. And what he said just made sense. You know, he was talking about how many times when we love people, especially his parents, we try to protect them because we want them to have their happiest life. So we try to remove challenges and obstacles. But when we remove the challenges and obstacles out of love with the best of intention, it leads to fragility. It leads to our kids being fragile and anxious. And I just decided in that moment, I'm like, I need to figure out how I can solve this. How can I solve it for my daughters? How can I solve it for the younger generation? But then I work in companies. So it's also a challenge in company. So that is what led me down the path. When people allow fear to control their behavior, how do we overcome fear? So bravery is defined

20:45as voluntary action in the presence of fear or risk toward a noble worthwhile goal. I'm like, I'm all in. There's things that people want in life. They really want to achieve a goal. They want to try something new. They want to career change. Whatever it is. They want to ask someone out on a date. People want things that are different than what their current reality is. And fear prevents them from going after it. And that is what inspired my work. So fascinating to just go from one just extreme to another. I mean, it's I'm glad you did and all the people that you've helped that are. But like anything could have happened during that. So it's just fascinating to just identify what drove you there. I remember when we met, you were telling me about Sean Acker, because I was explaining to you that we had Tal Ben Jahar on the show. Yeah. And happiness dudes. And I never knew you could become like an expert and you know, get a degree in happiness until I met them. And I love the idea of anti-fragility and all that stuff. You made a big distinction

21:47that I want to I want to bring out and make sense of it for for the audience. You say that confidence doesn't create action. Because what we just heard you say is that talking about bravery and taking that step at a time that it doesn't look like a good idea when there's fear. But a lot of people can go back and say, well, the reason why I won't take the step is because I'm not brave. And I know you'll help to find this. But you say that confidence doesn't create action action creates confidence. I think a lot of people read about that. And they understand, like you said before, like some muscle to develop and stuff. But they still judge themselves and identify whether they're the right person for the job or not. It seems like your message is anybody can be the right person for the job. So tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. Many people mistakenly think that they should wait to take a step or go after the job until they feel confident. Right. Isn't this what we betray? Like prepare, prepare, prepare. And when I feel confident, when I feel ready, that's when I should

22:52take the step. If that's what we're waiting for, we're either going to wait too long or for many people, they just never feel 100% ready so they never take the step. And then that leads to a life of regret. I always go to the science because I'm a scientific nerd, right. So when we study what builds confidence, how does this actually work? This is Albert Bender's research. Famous psychologist, he, all of his research is under self-efficacy, which is kind of a fancy academic word for self-confidence. How do you build a belief that you can do the thing? And again, most people think like you wait until you feel ready and then you then you take action. But what Albert Bender had discovered in his research is it's the action that builds the confidence instead of wait until the confidence take the action. And I actually realized that sometimes something happens in your past and then when you study it, you're like, oh my gosh, that's what happened. So there's something on the Navy SEAL course in Coronado, California called the confidence course. I didn't even know why it was called the confidence course. All I know is when I was 19 years old, we were told that we're going to go to the beach on a Saturday, Coronado Beach, which is a beautiful beach and we're going to

23:56play on something called the confidence course. So I was kind of told we were going to go have fun in the beach. Yeah, it's going to be beach, right? Yeah, and then we pull up and I realized that I think this was a bait and switch because we were actually being brought on the base to do the confidence course, which is an obstacle course that is designed to scare the living shit out of Navy SEALs. And I'm doing it. Right now I'm the only female midshipman, right, because the other one quit on the first year, right? And so we get there. And so one specific obstacle comes to mind and it's going to really help your audience understand this point, which action builds confidence. So there's this obstacle called the slide for life. I went up this little ladder and you go up to this little tiny platform, which is really up really high. No room for mistake. No room for mistakes. You're up there and you know, if you have any fear of falling, there's there's not like things around the edge. So you're up on this platform. And in front of me, there's this rope and it's 200 feet long and it extends basically to the ground below on another platform from the side. It looks like a zip line. It's like a zip line, but there's no equipment. It's just it's just you and your body. And yes,

24:59there is some people like, well, there must have been safety equipment below. Like there was some type of a net below, but it was so low to the ground. And then of course to make you a little bit more nervous, they're like, oh, don't count on that net to save you. You better say so. So I'm up there and I am terrified. Like, you know, when you're scared, but you kind of act like you're cool. Like, sometimes, you know, you're scared, but you're like, no, I'm not scared. I'm fine. I was so terrified that my body was betraying me. Like my knees were shaking and it was my turn to go next. And I don't know how I did it because I did not feel ready. I did not feel confident, but I just grabbed the rope. And I started pulling and within a couple of minutes, my feet hit the ground on the other side. And something JC shifted when I finished that obstacle and my feet at the ground, I looked back up. I had just done it, scared. And I had a confidence that I hadn't had before. And so it's not until I studied Bander's research that I realized that this is exactly what he's talking about. Like, so if I would have waited until I felt ready and confident, I never would have done it. He calls a mastery

26:02experiences. So when you do it scared and you realize that you survived, and sometimes you may not succeed. Like, you know, sometimes you'll make little mistakes and you learn it's taking the action that builds the confidence. So action precedes confidence. That's the way confidence is built based on the research, right? The fear tells us these little stories. We justify it as wisdom. Like, oh, I need to be careful. Like, oh, if you do that, this might happen. That might happen. Like, you might look like an idiot. So many times fear disguises itself as wisdom. And it prevents us from doing the exact thing that's going to build your confidence. That's going to lead to your goals. So what I'm trying to help people do is change their relationship with fear. If you change your relationship with fear, you can change your life. Many times, you know, when we've experienced fear, it's like, oh, like, you feel of that physical sensation. Like, your heart is beating the sensation of fear and the sensation of excitement is very, very similar. So I try to teach people to be curious about fear. So when you feel fear, sometimes it is keeping you safe.

27:07Some people say, why don't you jump off that bridge? We don't know if it's safe below and you feel fear. Listen to that because maybe this is a fear that you should listen to. But I just teach people to lean in and be curious. And that's what I do for myself, you know, to this day. Like, if I'm feeling the fear, what is the fear telling me? Is it a stop sign or a warning sign that I should go the other way? I would say 90% of the time, JC, fear is a sign post pointing you toward the thing that you should be doing that's going to lead to your happiest life. Yeah. There's that there's that epictetus stuff, you know, the obstacles away and all of that. Exactly. This is my question though, because I know people and I know you and I will still be afraid, but we have had the experiences of doing it anyway and knowing that you always end up better. Right. For that person that is up there on that, you know, slide of death or whatever you renamed it and they get afraid and they don't do it. They have their own reasons for not doing it.

28:12But my question to you is, why did you grab the rope anyway? Is it because you knew that you'd be fine? You trusted it in yourself. It didn't sound like that, but you had to have a reason to push into it. So how important is that component of it? Yeah. Yeah. You just opened up so many things here that I want to touch on that I think are important for your audience. Number one is if someone decides not to do it, I want us to think about what is the impact on that person's well-being. If there's something that you want to do and you're too scared to do it, when you look in the mirror that night, how are you feeling about yourself? So this is this is the stakes of when we allow fear to control our behavior and this is why I'm so passionate about helping people overcome it. So the reason why I decided to grab the rope, two reasons. Number one, I was thinking how do I want to feel as we're driving back in the car? Because I was in a car with fellow Marines or fellow Marine candidates. And this is a really great technique for your audience. You can ask yourself this question,

29:13what does my future self want me to do in this moment? Interesting. Developer relationship with your future self. Sometimes it can be like whatever you're scared of, like I'm scared of making this phone call because but it's the most important phone call I can make for my business or something like that. What does my 5 p.m. end of work self want me to do in this moment? To hesitate? To keep waiting? Because then as we negotiate sometimes we don't say, oh, I'm going to do it. I'm just going to put it off until later, right? So what does my future self want me to do in this moment? So I want people to develop a relationship. I want you to start talking to yourself in the best possible way. When you have a conversation with your future self, your future self is always going to guide you to make the wise decision to do, take the action that will lead to you becoming your best future self. Which would require wanting to become your best future self. I mean, is there something to be said about people just not being ready? Because I would assume somebody that's not ready to grow probably doesn't come seek your help. Because if I come seek your

30:17help, that's an indicator that I want to push past. Yes, most of the people I help are people who really want to do things in life, but they just keep waiting. They just keep hesitating and they can't get over the fear. Can I add one more thing for that day? So part of the reason I did it is, I just decided like, I don't want to be feeling shameful on that ride back. I really want to be the person that did it. So that motivated me. The other thing is sometimes the environment that people use surround yourself with can inspire brave action. So if someone wants to become brave, decide to become the United States Marine. You can't really help it because when you're surrounded with and all the activities are going to go bravery. So part of it is, and this relates to my research on the social psychology behind bravery. Like if someone wants to do something brave like run a marathon, if the only people you hang out with are your friends that you like to game with and we sit on the couch all the time, the chances of you doing the brave thing are much lower than if you change your

31:21social circle, if you join a run club or you start hanging out with other runners. So the other thing that helped me is everyone else was doing it. Sometimes that's a good thing. They say like, well, if everyone's jumping off the bridge or you're going to do it too, well, when it comes to this obstacle, like my social group, like everyone was doing it and they were okay, right? And they're saying, you can do it. So, you know, surround yourself with those that will call forth your best, which is another epic teedist quote. So, you know, we have to be really careful of who we surround ourselves with. And if they're supporting our goal pursuit, right? Like, what is it that you want to do? When I wanted to start my business, JC, I had a big corporate job, you know, with pension, 401K benefits, but I really wanted to start my own, want to start my own company. A few people that care about me more than anyone else in the world told me, don't do it. My mom and my dad, Jill, you have a family, you have all these benefits, right? So sometimes we listen to the people that care the most about us and that prevents us from doing it. Those are just a couple techniques. So for your audience that

32:23want to do this, there's, there's so many psychological tools here. Have a conversation with their future self, surround yourself with people who have done the brave thing that you're seeking to do. If you surround yourself with those people, they're going to say, oh, I did it. Here's some tips on how to do it. And if you're struggling, call me. That can really help you do the brave thing. Yeah, I just can't imagine a bunch of people after that day, like being in a bar clinking beer mugs saying like, hey, here's to everybody keeping it safe today. I don't think that happens. I picked up just an absolutely delicious quote this morning. And I never heard it. And I just hope for the sake of surprise. You've never heard it either, but it's like so perfect. You're saying when it comes to hanging around the right people, here it is. It says, you can't talk butterfly language with caterpillar people. Yes. Isn't that just delicious? And I know that that's, that's a big part of this. If you hang out with a bunch of people that don't grab the rope and have great reason,

33:25it'll just make you feel so much better about keeping it safe yourself. But if you hang around with people and you get to see them basking in the glory of confidence, like my daughter, she's 16 and I put her at a very young age in Jiu Jitsu and now she competes internationally. And oh yeah, she's 16 and you know, she just walks around. I mean, she doesn't tell people, but she could beat the crap out of most men, you know. And she just walks around. She sounds like a badass. Oh, she just walks up to strangers and she just says, hi, my name's Alexi. Nice to meet you. What's your name? And people are like, I just love it. I would love it if you could take me through the the four truths. I believe you call them. I want to get into the bravery effect as we use up our last bit of time. Walk us through the four truths and I believe that would start with bravery is built not born, which we've been talking about. But I just want to make sure that everybody gets gets those four truths. What are the myths about bravery that and if you leave these myths, it will

34:26hold you back and you will not have the life that you can have. So the first one is yeah, people think that bravery is a trait that they're born with, that it's something they can't change. That is not true. And again, I can prove it scientifically because I studied it in psychology. So bravery is a skill that anyone can build. It's not like just one day you're cowering and the next day you're the bravest person. It doesn't work that way. It's little by little. It's like you're 16-year-old daughter. Like you've seen her probably transform into this confident, now young woman. And I'm sure that Jiu Jitsu over the years has made that impact on her. And I use that example of, you know, going to the gym, like if someone isn't strong and they said, I'm just not strong, I could never be strong. We would say, well, that is ridiculous. You're choosing not to build that strength. Bravery is the same way. So if people want to be strong, they go into the gym and they don't just try to lift 200 pounds and bench and say, I can't do it, they grab the weight that is heavy for them,

35:26that is uncomfortable and they lift it. And it should hurt and it should hurt enough for their sore the next day. And if they keep doing that and progressively increasing the load, they build strength over time. So bravery is exactly the same way. You know, you just start small. In fact, you should start small. Don't go from not ever doing something and then trying to climb out Everest the next week. You know, you start little by little. So bravery is a skill anyone can learn. And based on some of the research that I am doing now, and I'll share it with you when it's published, but it's I think a skill that everyone should learn. It has a profound impact. The second thing myth is that people don't even understand what bravery is. People think that bravery is being fearless. Like if I don't feel fear, then I'm brave. If you don't feel fear, then you're not being brave, because bravery is defined as taking a step forward in the presence of fear toward a noble or worthwhile goal. So we should be feeling fear. In fact, I want people to seek fear. If you're not a little bit scared slash excited, like scared in that good possible way, like you're not getting

36:30the most out of life. So I'm always seeking, you know, fear. So if you feel fear, you're doing it right. So I'm thinking of all the myths that I usually talk about. I talk about a lot of different ones, but those are the two that I think are probably the most foundational for people to understand. It's a skill that anyone can build. And being scared is not something bad. It's actually a good thing. And if you if you can learn to move toward your fear and conquer them, and that's what the book is about. It's about the science of overcoming your fear to achieve more, but to unlock your highest level of happiness and well-being. And that's the promise of bravery. And kind of a funny aside, I always kind of prided myself and not being woo-woo. I'm like the marine. I'm the driver of results. I'm like the grind girl. But now I think I've become pretty woo-woo because let me tell you the connection here. There's a friend of mine, her name's Katie Sein. She's just finishing her PhD and she is redefining the construct or really defining the construct of self-love, right?

37:31Which is about the woo-eeest thing out there. And her and I are together and we're like, bravery leads to self-love. Bravery on the outside is just like, is this just grinding? Is this like the David Goggins? Just go after him grind. If you can learn to do hard things that are going to lead to your better life to go after your self-concordant goals, yet this leads to highest levels of self-love. And that's what brings us to a higher level of happiness. So after all these years of saying like, I'm not woo-woo, I'm a complete woo-woo girl because that's the promise of bravery. Bravery leads to the highest levels of happiness and well-being because you will love yourself when you look in the mirror when you do the hard things. It's interesting about humans because like everybody has something that they think is easy that somebody else would think is hard. It could even just be giving birth to a child or something like that. Not to say that that's easy. It seems like what we're really

38:32talking about is just, you know, creating a new orientation and relationship with fear and not looking at it the way that your mother-father teacher taught you to look at it. I want to ask questions for my listeners and they always like that. So for the person listening right now, who gets it, very easy to get it and say, yeah, that makes sense, but because everybody thinks they're so unique and different, they're a situation. So somebody that's been kind of sitting on a decision, maybe a hard conversation, a career move, leap of faith type thing, what's the first small brave action that you tell them to take today? So I would say think of the big dream, the goal that you have that you really want, but you're just too scared and I'm going to draw on Goldwoodsor's research, which he basically teaches when it feels daunting, it's so big. Here's what you can do. Break it down into the steps. Like if there were 10 steps to be able to achieve that dream that you want, right? Like what is the first step? So once we shrink that step down to become something that

39:36is a little scary, but doable, right? That can help us take the first step. So if you want to climb Mount Everest, you're not going to go do that tomorrow, but what you're going to do is you're going to you're going to decide that tonight, I'm going to put on my hiking shoes, I'm going to go and hike for an hour. So it's just determining like what is a step? Can I give two tips? So let's make this practical because a lot of times we dream and the thought of getting there, it's just so big and daunting to become practical. We need to come up with in a literature, it's called implementation intentions. So what is the plan? Let's get practical. And then what is the thing that you can implement tomorrow? Maybe you're just going to you're going to research tomorrow. What are the steps to be able to accomplish the thing? That's actually a step. I'm going to spend an hour researching and here's a crazy thing too. So many times we keep putting off or hesitating to do the thing that we must do. So I want you to break it down into steps. Maybe tomorrow you're going to say I'm going to spend an hour and I'm going to I don't even know what the steps are. I'm going to research

40:37what are the steps for me to accomplish that goal. And then I want you to put it in your calendar. I was just reading some research where people are 70% more apt to actually take the brave step when you make a commitment to do it yourself at a certain time. What is the thing you're going to do for an hour tomorrow? Maybe it's just research. Put it on your calendar. You're going to do it from maybe 10 a.m. to 11 a.m. and then keep that promised yourself and just do that first step. And don't wait. So once you've decided the one step you're going to take just to get started on that path. Decide when you're going to do it and then don't press news. Don't say I'll do it later. I'll do it later. Keep the promised yourself. And I mean it literally like I believe this is just maybe it's the marine to me to never ever press news like the literal snooze button because the night before you made a promised yourself you've set your alarm because there's an intention on there's things that you're going to do in light. If the first thing you do in the morning is you press snooze you're going to get in the habit of letting yourself down breaking promises to yourself.

41:41So there's a small thing we can do is make that little promised yourself 10 a.m. tomorrow, 10 to 11 a.m. to take that first step and then don't put it off. This is where we get into practicality. All the researchers say try to break it down into a small enough thing that you can tackle it tomorrow. Just take that first step. I love it. So your book, The Brave Reeffect, right off the bat I noticed that you decided to write it as a parable. You know one of my favorite books is The Alchemist. So I love parables. But why did you decide to write it as a parable rather than like a straight up self-help book? Which I think it's genius, but why? The reason for it is because stories stick. There's a couple of reasons. Like for me in my all the work I do in leadership development, I would have my students or the executives come through my course. I would usually have them read a book and I always have them read books that are parables. Like even business books, like five dysfunctions of a team by Len Cioni, the new one-minute manager by Ken Blanchard.

42:43These are leadership books but they're written as parables. When people read a parable, they tend to remember so the story stick. The other motivation, so I wanted people to really learn how to be brave and I wanted it to stick. The second motivation is I get so many books like self-help books, business books. And I just maybe a little bit impatient. I usually get through the first half and then I stop reading and I kind of leave through the rest. I don't go through the whole book. If it's written as a parable, you're going to get to the end because you want to know what happens at the end. Like in the alchemist, which I love that book. So that was my motivation and I really wanted to be something. I also wanted my daughters to actually read the book. So I'm like if it's all just science, so I challenge myself by making it a parable because it just makes it more accessible when you write it as a parable. I think more people are going to relate to it and be able to learn it. If I'm in my comfort zone, all right, all the science stuff. But like sometimes when you write things and there's too much science, you know, it just turns people off and they're going to stop reading. So hopefully people will read the story and they'll pass it along for someone else to read the

43:44story so they can actually learn how they can become brave to live a better life. I love it. I'll send you a copy of my book. My book is a parable, but I'm the main character. Oh, yeah. So I wrote it as a as as a story, but it's actually me. What's the biggest hesitation habit that you see holding high performing people back at work? The number one thing I find as a go into corporations is usually the hesitation to have difficult conversations to identify and sell problems because humans were wired to sometimes avoid discomfort or confrontation. And so when people know there's a problem like and they should have a conversation, they'll just avoid the person or hope it resolves itself. So in corporate America, really, it's just having difficult conversations. If I can help people understand like what would be the consequence if this doesn't

44:46get solved? I mean, it's so it's so simple, right? Because people go like, well, we really need to solve this. It's really bad for the business. It's bad for our relationship. The team can feel the tension. So do you want to solve it? Like the only way you're going to solve it is by having a discussion. So because a lot of people think that either I'm going to be a jerk and bring up the hard thing or I'm just going to be a softie and avoid having that conversation. And in reality, you don't have to choose between being a jerk and being a coward or being a softie. You can be the most caring, courageous fellow employee or leader. So there's a third alternative. Like the most caring thing someone can do is to come to you and have a conversation to resolve the tension or to identify the problem to solve it. So people are scared to talk to each other about hard stuff. Yeah. I would assume in the realm of bravery and posture syndrome is a big thing. People are just enamored and in awe of people like you, but they kind of put you up on a pedestal that they don't think that they could ever be on. So, you know, your book and your work is like

45:49unrealizing how hard it must have been for you to step away from that corporate environment because there's such a huge need. But I will also assume that the people that you've turned it over to are doing a fantastic job. Maybe even better than you. Well, you know what? Yes. Yes. Because they're super excited. But here's the crazy thing. Like I still work in corporate America. Right. But I'm bringing now bravery because you think like what does bravery have to do with corporate? So I'm just I'm serving the corporate world in a new way because because of the imposter syndrome. If you think about it like in corporate America, like they teach people like here's here's what you need to do for your job. You're supposed to, you know, make out on calls. You're supposed to close the sale. You're supposed to have difficult conversations. So you can teach people or tell them what to do and even teach them how to do it. But fear prevents them from doing the thing they need to do. So fear is the psychological thing. The emotion that holds people back from performing their best. So I still get to work in corporate America. But I get to serve them in a different way. And I'm bringing something new and novel. Like whenever you admire someone's

46:49career, like someone looks up to you and goes, Oh my God, JC, what have you done? It's easy to look up to someone and look at what they've done and go, I could never do that. So here's another strategy that you can do. Approach people that have done the thing that you're seeking to do or study them. You may not even have to have a conversation study like where did they start? If you learn about my path, you will realize that if Jill Schollman could do it, then I'll tell you you can do it too. Nobody cares. So when you study someone's, their journey, you're going to see their journey started with just a step. They were there were ups and downs. Like I had ups. I made mistakes. So if you just take time to talk to someone who has done the thing that you want to do and you learn about their journey, you're going to go, Okay, that path, I can take it or study someone's journey. So it's another one of those things that can give you the confidence. Like, you know, you see on social media, like what people's lives are and like, wow, I could never do that. Trust me. If you learn about their journey, they just did it by putting one foot in front of the other. So you can do it too.

47:50Just final question. If someone were to remember one sentence from this whole conversation on the science of bravery, what do you want it to be? If you can change your relationship with fear, you can change your life. It kind of reminds me of Wayne Dyer. I love when you change the way you look at things, things you look at change. I think everybody will understand that. But I think the most relevant part of it is just taking that first doable, somewhat uncomfortable action step and just build on that. Fear is inevitable, right? But hesitation, that is optional. And bravery is trainable. For all of my stalkers out there and go getters and first step takers, where would you direct them to get more engaged with your work? Obviously, we're going to turn them on to the book. On social media. And then also if people want to go to my website and you can check all of my work on my website and then sign up for my newsletter. And then you're going to get evidence

48:52space tips on a regular basis. But I mainly on LinkedIn because I'm the corporate girl, right? So please connect with me on LinkedIn or follow me there. I'm getting better on Instagram and Facebook. I'm trying to follow in your steps. But I make a commitment at least three times a week to put something out, little reminders to help people be brave because we need those reminders on a regular basis. So they can just follow me. It's just Jill Shulman. If you type in Jill Shulman, like the science of bravery, you'll find me across all social platforms. But yeah, please follow me. I'm on a mission to try to solve this bravery recession that we're having right now. But we can fix it. One person at a time if you learn to be brave. So follow me. And then I also want to just give to your audience a gift. And I can give it to you. I would just love to give everyone my book for free an audiobook. I'll give a link and everyone can have it because I did not write the book to make money on the book. I wrote the book to share the science of bravery, to share the truth so that people can read it and take action. I make my money by speaking on big stages. So that's how I

49:53earned my money from speaking. So with a book, I made this decision. This is actually a really decision and it feels so good because my publisher is like, why would you give away your book for free? This is for you to make money, right? And I just I really looked inside and says, no, I think the right decision is I just want as many people to read as possible. So let's move that period. You're going to have a lot of people taking you up on that. I'm sure. Jill, such a treat to have you on the show. You're one of those people that you meet and you feel when you walk away that you know the person is that wonderful having you on the show. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me. Hi, this is Jill Shulman and this podcast makes sense. That's it for today. To support the makesense with Dr. G C podcast, be sure to subscribe, like and share as well as follow the makesense substack for free daily quotes, live streams and blogs. And remember, learning without action is just another form of distraction. If something hit home and you learn something today, give it away. That's the only way it's

50:55going to stay. See you next time.