JF 4203: From Flips to Fortune: A Real Estate Journey ft. J Scott

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1:22Best ever listeners, welcome back to another episode of Beyond Multi-Family, Amanda Cruz here with Ash Patel, and we're coming at you live from the best ever conference 10 in Salt Lake City, having a great time, and welcome Jay Scott. Amanda, you have the best radio voice. I love it. Oh, man, you're so nice. That's a backhanded compliment, isn't it? No, no, no. You got a voice for radio? What the hell? Well, nobody listening can see the awesome jacket that I'm wearing. That's the problem. Hey, this is going to be a great episode. I've been a big fan of Jay Scott for a lot of years. Follow him everywhere. I really enjoyed the drunk real estate podcast that he's done it. Guys, if you haven't heard it, you got to check it out. All right, Jay, there haven't been episodes in a few months, though, because I was listening

2:24in. What's going on? So we have four co-hosts, three different time zones, all of us run businesses, and it's difficult to schedule it every week. I'm not going to call out any names, but Mauricio and AJ, two of my co-hosts. I've been a little bit busy, but we are excited about getting back at it. Might have to change the format up a little bit, but it'll be coming back soon. You do need to change your format, because a lot of times you would drink like one glass of wine. That's not a drunk podcast. You shouldn't hang out with us tonight. We'll tell you what we do. We'll record later. Let's do it. Yeah, even better. Well, Jay, what are you up to, man? You got a big build to rent project, don't you? Yes. So it's a ground up development outside of Dallas. We're building 351 units. So it's our biggest development project yet, and we're really excited about it. Can you talk a little bit about the transition from multifamily into development? A lot of LPs in syndication groups have been telling, or a lot of GPs in syndication groups

3:24have been telling LPs, oh, only invest with people who are doing the exact same thing, copy and paste over and over. What do you think in these days? Yeah. So my MO, my entire career has always been to align myself with people who are smarter than I am. And people who know how to do the thing that I want to do. So when I entered multifamily back in 2017-18, I reached out to my friend, Ashley Wilson, who had been doing multifamily for several years. I basically said, hey, I want to learn this business. Can you teach me the business? I'll volunteer my time. You got me for one year. You have my time. My role dex, my money, my network, whatever you need. She agreed to do that. And so she spent a year mentoring me. I learned the business, and then we became partners. But she was the expert. She's still the expert. And so I've been able to be successful in multifamily in general because I aligned to myself with somebody who knew what they were doing. Now we're moving into development. We're doing the same exact thing. So we brought in an amazing development manager. His name's Kerry Clark. Somebody that's been developing for a long time. We have a great owner's representative. Basically in the development world, owner's representative is a consultant that comes in that

4:27represents you to the GC and to other vendors. And so we brought in somebody who's amazing. Our GC, 47 years in the business, 30,000 units delivered, five billion in development. So our development stack is absolutely amazing. And so I think of it as we're running the deal. We're leading asset management. We're going to handle the lease up. We're going to handle all of the capital raising. We're going to handle basically all the stuff on the back end when we go to sell the property. But we have an entire second side to the team that's our development stack. And they are amazing developers. And they know the development side of the business. And so we're successful because we found other successful people to come in and help us. We've worked one year for free. So if J. Scott ever wants to learn retail, I get him for a year for free. A hundred. And I recommend to anybody that wants to get experience. Go find somebody that's doing what you're doing and offer to volunteer your time for a few months. And it's a sacrifice that you're willing to make. But keep in mind the other persons making a major sacrifice to teach you the business.

5:30They're taking their time, their effort. They may be created a competitor. And so you have to make it worth a while. If you're managing properties, you already know it's not just about the real estate. It's about the operations. You're juggling vendors, payments, approvals, multiple portfolios, sometimes multiple HOAs. And somehow you're still expected to keep tenants happy. That's exactly why hundreds of property managers trust Bill to streamline their finances. With Bill for property management, you can add all of your properties in one place. Assign permissions, pay bills, and receive payments quickly and efficiently without the chaos. Bill has been helping businesses simplify and automate financial operations for nearly two decades. And their property management solution is built specifically for this complexity. You can sync seamlessly with QuickBooks Online, Zero, Oracle Net Suite, and Sage Intact. Automate bulk payments across properties and HOAs. And choose flexible payment options like same day, ACH, international wire, card, or check.

6:33You can also set customizable roles and approval policies and even use a dedicated bill inbox for each property. If you're ready to streamline your property management workflow, book your free demo today at bill.com forward slash best ever. And you'll get a $100 Amazon gift card. Again, that's bill.com slash best ever. Jay, what phase of development are you in for that project? So we are about 17 months into the deal. We put the land under contract spring of 24. And we literally just got our formal approval or commitment for the loan yesterday. So we're about two months from closing the loan and breaking ground. You're raising for that. What is the education like for investors? Yeah, so we have a lot of investors who are comfortable with the types of value add deals that we've done in the past. They understand how preferred returns work. They understand the cash flow. They understand the tax benefits. For the most part, the return structure is exactly the same, but it parcels out differently.

7:36There's no cash flow for a year and a half. There's not going to be any tax benefits until we actually start leasing up part of the property. Most of the returns are going to be on the back end. And so we have to help our investors understand that the return, the pieces of the return structure are the same. But the actual return structure itself is somewhat different. So that's number one. Number two, we need to help them understand the risk profile. Our investors have gotten very accustomed to the risk profile of a multi-family value add project. Here are the things they can go wrong. If the different points and developments here are the things they can go wrong at the end of the project. Here's how the risks can manifest themselves, longer hold period, lower NOI, whatever it is. There's different risks for development. And typically those risks translate into a different type of return structure, but it's our job to educate them on those risks. Jay, you guys are kind of at the forefront of perhaps a new development wave. What are you seeing that makes you guys want to jump in now?

8:36Yeah. So the biggest thing is simply just the supply and demand characteristics of a lot of markets these days. So 2020, 2021, beginning of 2022, interest rates near zero. Developers turned on the faucet. Basically they started buying all the land they could because they knew they could build with debt that was so cheap that it was hard not to make money. And so we saw a ton of housing starts in 21, 22, 23, which meant a ton of deliveries housing over supply in 24, 25 and into 26. Well, interest rates started to go up in 22 and 23 and that faucet just shut off. Builders stopped buying land. They stopped developing housing starts basically stopped in a lot of markets. And so what we're likely to see a couple of years from there, 27, 28, is that we're going to start to see a housing under supply. There's not going to be nearly as many units coming online. We're going to see a much better supply balance in a lot of markets. And that's going to give us an opportunity to kind of go in and kind of start siphoning off some of that demand that's looking for a home because there's no new units coming online.

9:41Why do you think other operators aren't going ahead and starting to build now too? I think part of it is that number one, it's hard to make that transition from not building to building. Like you said, you have to convince your investors that you have the team and the ability to actually be successful. But the other thing is I think that there are a lot of investors out there, both GPs and LPs who are scared. We've had a really rough three or four years. A lot of deals haven't hit their targets. A lot of capital calls. A lot of deals have actually gone under. And so I think a lot of GPs and a lot of LPs are hesitant to take on a new challenge or take on something that they're not fully confident or don't fully understand. So let's think about that for a second. If you're a multi-family operator and your deals didn't go so well, now you're presenting another deal where you don't get a check for a year and a half. How do you overcome that? Do you get a lot of pushback from investors saying, wait a minute, I'm used to getting, you know, the multi-family syndication world started doing monthly checks to lower investors.

10:47So somebody that's used to getting monthly checks now all of a sudden, they got to put all their faith into you, hoping a year and a half the spigot trends back on. Yeah, a lot of it is just education and transparency. So what we found with a lot of our investors is they're okay going another year or two without cash flow because they understand where we are in the cycle. And they understand that while we may be at the bottom of this multi-family recession, it's not going to be a quick recovery. And even if we focused only on the projects that we've done in the past, we're not going to see a lot of cash flow over the next couple of years. So those investors basically have two choices. They can invest in deals that will start throwing off cash flow in two years or they can move into other asset classes, they can put their money in the stock market, they can put their money in Bitcoin, they put their money into something else. But they want a lot of them want to be in real estate. And so they understand that if we can sell them on our vision that this project is going to be successful because the timing is going to be right in two years, they're mostly willing to wait.

11:47Jay, any development projects that we've raised for we just did straight 10% debt. Did you consider doing that as a secondary class of shares to still get the money in and no equity upside just straight 10%. So for this deal, we originated probably the most amazing loan product I've ever seen in my life. It's called a HUD 221 D4 and it took 15 months to originate the loan. But basically it's a 40 year fully amortized fixed rate loan of 40 years fully amortized fixed rate. So we're going to have a rate fixed looks like we're locking it this week under 6% and that rate is good for the full 40 years and 40 years that loans paid off. Hold that that property for 40 years. We're actually going to sell it pretty quickly, but it's a fully assumable loan as well. So the next buyer and the buyer after that and the buyer after that can assume the loan. And then in addition, they're willing to go up to 87% LTV for the development. So you're actually getting that loan in place now and taking draws as you're building is still the same loan in place.

12:49Yes, it's not a construction to perm loan. It is one loan. There's no difference. The only differentiation is that it's interest only through the construction period. So we're paying interest only for the first two years or so while we're doing construction and then it begins to amortize. Are you still looking for multi family deals? We are. We've been looking. We've never stopped looking. We did two deals early in 2022. The market turned. We kept looking. We make 5, 10, 15 offers a month. We're looking at a lot of deals. We're talking to lenders that are trying to get distressed deals off their books. We haven't found anything. This is the first big deal that we found since 2022. We're pretty conservative. We're not a we're not a huge shop. So when we put our own capital into our deals. So if we do one deal a year, that's great. If we don't do a deal for two or three years, that's okay. If we do two or three deals this year, that's great as well. We don't really set our targets based on a number of deals. We just want to make sure that every deal we do is good. You don't have to do deals to keep the lights on. Exactly. We run pretty lean. We have a small team. Not going to lie. It's been it's been a struggle the last couple of years.

13:55Like most GPs, like most operators, hasn't been a lot of cash flow. We haven't taken paychecks. But at the same time, we recognize back in 2022 that it could get tough for a couple years. So we streamlined as much as we could and we put ourselves in a position where we don't have to do deals. America leads the world in medicine development. It matters. We get new medicines first nearly three years faster. 5 million Americans go to work because we make medicines here at home. And not relying on other countries keeps us safe. But China is racing to overtake us. Will we let them or will we choose to stay ahead? When America leads, America cures. Let's tell Washington to keep us in the lead. Learn how at AmericaCures.com. Pay for by Farma. Your planet is now marked for death. Marvel Studios The Fantastic Four First Steps is now streaming on Disney Plus. We will protect you. As a family. A lot of us, Johnny! Marvel's first family is certified fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. That has been tasked.

14:57And critics say it's one of the best superhero movies of all time. Marvel Studios The Fantastic Four First Steps, now streaming on Disney Plus, ready PG-13. What time is it, Ben? It's Barbara Die! So the state of multifamily now, this is such a common thing that we hear. I'm best and final often. I never get the deals. There's always somebody willing to overpay for multifamily. You finding the same thing? How do you think the good old days will ever come back of multifamily? How is it just too competitive now and too many people making dumb offers? I think at some point a lot of this is going to shake out. I think we've already seen some of that. I don't think there are nearly as many newer and inexperienced buyers as there were a few years ago. What happened since 2022, 2023, 2024. I've seen a lot of GPs who came into the market, did a deal, did two deals, they've disappeared. And so I definitely think we're seeing a thinning of the herd. But I don't think we'll ever get to the point where we're not being outbid on a lot of deals by people who don't know what they're doing or not willing to overpay.

16:00And that's part of what I love about this industry. If it were easy, we'd all be making tons of money. It's not easy. You have to find that needle in the haystack and you're going to lose a lot of deals to people who are just not as smart as you or maybe they're smarter than you and we can't figure out how. Today, a couple of years ago, you were here at the Best Ever Conference talking about the economics of capital raising. And there's basically a dollar amount you can expect to make for every dollar you raise. How has that thinking changed over the past few years? So I don't think it has. And so it's funny. You're like the third person that brought out that presentation. I really forgot about that presentation. Basically, I talked about the fact that as a GP as an operator, typically the equity that we raise, there's a return on that equity. And so for our business, and I don't want to speak for anybody else's business, for our business, we typically see a return of about between 9 and 11% on every dollar we raise. So if we raise $10 million on a deal, typically that's worth somewhere around a million dollars to us in terms of return on that equity.

17:07And I love how the internet never sleeps. You've got to watch everything you say, because people like Amanda will bring it back to you. I was in that room. I remember it. Yeah. And so, but when you know that number as an operator, when you know how much your debt is bringing you in return, that gives you an idea of how much you can spend to acquire that equity. That tells you how much you can go out to spend. We don't do Facebook ads or things like that, but how much you can spend on Facebook ads. Or things like we have a share of class of shares in all of our deals where anybody that invests over a million dollars gets a 5% discount on the shares. So you put in $950,000. We'll give you a million dollars in shares. We're literally giving them 5% of our profit back because we're paying for that out of our pocket. But we know if we're going to make 10% on that equity, we're happy to give half of it back. That's a brilliant metric. It's brilliant, right? As long as the deals perform. Absolutely. Yeah. Can you talk about all these debt funds, right? A lot of syndicators switched from multifamily to debt funds.

18:07And most of that is funding, fix and flip loans have the number of flippers out there 50 times over the past three years, something's up. So I think a lot of people who have gotten a little bit weary of the multi-family market, they're good at raising capital. They're good at putting together deals, but they're terrified or their investors are terrified. So what they've kind of done is they've moved down the capital stack. So instead of raising equity, instead of taking on partners that put in money that if we make money, if we lose money, you lose money. They're now further down the capital stack. They're providing debt. So we're going to pay you interest. And instead of you getting a 16 IRR or a 17 IRR like you might get on a multifamily deal, you're now going to get 10% return on interest, but it's a lot lower risk. And so a lot of multifamily operators have seen and we've done the same. We've started, we've raised a pref equity fund, which is one of those funds where we're lower in the capital stack. Our investors get paid before all the regular investors. And the trade-off is lower returns, but also lower risk.

19:08And so I think a lot of multifamily operators have investors who are basically saying, we study into a deal. We still want to do deals, but we need a lower risk profile and we're willing to take a lower return in response. That 100% makes sense. I mean, we've been raising debt. We do private lenders for most of our stuff for years. But the difference is we raise for one project. That's it. Yeah. And it goes away. All these syndicators doing these debt funds. They're raising. There's a millions of dollars. And they have to place it somewhere, which makes me wonder the quality of the loans. They're placing it in. I mean, all right. Don't go too deep into the echo. We're going to get lost if you do that. What are your thoughts on that? This is the problem with every fund that you raise. So there are kind of two types of funds. There's the, we're going to raise the exact amount of money we need for deals that we've already identified. And we're going to deploy that money into that fund into those deals. And then there's the, we're going to raise money. We're not going to stop raising money. And as we raise money, we'll find good deals and we'll keep deploying funds into those deals.

20:09For funds like that, the benefit is you get diversification. So you might get deal in this location, in that location, this asset class, that asset class, this operator, that operator. But the downside is that if you have a lot of money coming in, you're going to feel pressure to place that money. Because any time money is sitting in a bank account, it's not generating returns. So you're either paying those returns out of your pocket or you're telling your investors your money's not moving yet. You're not getting the returns. And so there's a lot of pressure to do deals. And for that reason, we see a lot of a lot of fund managers who will deploy funds into deals that maybe they wouldn't do if they weren't feeling that pressure. Do you think that's the case with a lot of these debt funds right now, funding, fixed and flips? I do. And I think fixed and flips are, I am seeing a lot of that. I'm probably seeing even more debt funds going into distressed multifamily. So operators who have deals that they need to refinance. But because values have fallen, they need to do a cash-in refinance. Or they can't pay a rate cap. So they have to raise a half million or a million or two million dollars to do a rate cap purchase.

21:14And so it's basically raising debt to help out or to rescue. A lot of times they're called rescue funds to rescue deals that are struggling. And I think part of the problem there is it's like a capital call. If you get a capital call, you have to make this decision. Am I going to fund the capital call or do I not want to? You have to ask a lot of really hard questions determined to determine whether the money you're putting in is likely to really rescue that deal. Or if you're just pushing the inevitable down the road. The problem is it usually comes down to an emotional decision. It does. Right. These investors are not as sophisticated as we are. So if they're being told and I've listened to a lot of these calls, it's almost predatory at times where it's like, look, if you don't put money in, we're all going to lose. Yeah. And I've never heard any of these syndicators say, man, we've really screwed up and we need your help. It's always look, here's where we are, put money in or everyone loses. Jay, when you guys are raising your prefectivity, is it for other deals you're finding?

22:17Or is it for the deals that you guys had in multifamily? Yeah. So we did a hybrid model. So basically we said we're going to raise this prefectivity fund. They're not deals that we are leading. But we're going to deploy those funds to operators that we know that we like that we trust. And we're going to take a GP position in those deals. So we find operators that are specifically looking for prefectivity. And we say, look, we want to come into the deal. We'll bring capital to the deal, but we also want to see that the table. So our investors know that we have day to day insight into the deal. We have some takeover control if things go south. And so we're a vested part of that deal. We're part of the due diligence. We may be signing on the loan. So our investors, even though we're not leading the deal, know that we have a vested interest and we're representing them well. Are these on distress deal? We only do new origination for prefectivity. Got to ask you a question. So I've met syndicator fund of funds people. I'm not a fan of most of them. Met one recently. I said, hey, what's your due diligence checklist? How many items? He's like seven.

23:18I'm like, what? He's like, no, hold on. He thought he gave me a high answer. He's like, no, three. I'm like, are you kidding me? Three things are your due diligence. He's like, yeah. I'm like, what? He's deployed like $30 million of his friends and families money into deals with somewhere between three and seven item checklists. And then I met other people that have 220 items on their checklist. But the majority of people fall somewhere in between. I'm not a big fan of a lot of these fund of funds people because they've come to us in the past. I'm like, hey, we can bring money for your deal. I'm like, well, tell me more. And they're like, what do I get out of it? They don't ask me about my background, previous deals that I've done. They don't want to know about this actual deal other than what the IRR is. And it's like, wait a minute. You're taking people. You're taking money from people, putting it into a deal that you don't know shit about. But you're making a nice rip. And that's your biggest concern. What's your rip? So somebody brought this up to you. Somebody of my team said, hey, if we ever take fund of funds people, we should qualify them.

24:23And that got me thinking, why? And like, one, our deals are not going to go south. But two, what do you think of that? Would you qualify the quality of the fund of funds people? You obviously believe in your deal. And you're okay with it. But do you care where the money comes from? I'm a huge believer. Let me take it from the other side. I'm a huge believer in aligning interest between the fund manager, the sponsor, and investors. And we work really hard to align our interests. On our Pref Equity Fund, we make $0 from the fund. We pay all expenses out of pocket. The only place that we make money is our GP ownership in the deal. And because it's a Pref Equity Fund, our investors are lower in the capital stack than we are as the GP. So there could be deals that, depending on how they perform, our investors can make, they can get all their money back, make all of their promise returns, and I can get nothing. So the deal actually has to perform better for me to make a return than my investors. And because we pay all the fees ourselves in theory, we could lose money on our fund if we don't generate,

25:26we don't do profitable deals. If we don't do deals that generate returns for the GP, we could literally run this fund for five or six or seven years and lose money. So that's number one. Number two, we put money into our fund. And that's the first question I would ask. If I'm investing in somebody's fund, is how much you put in? We own 12% of our fund. And so our investors know that if they lose money, we're losing money as well. And so that gives them confidence that we're probably, they're not going to ask us how many data points or items we have on our checklist. Once they hear that we own 12% of the fund, that gives them the confidence that we probably have enough items on our checklist that we're covering ourselves, because we're in the same boat, same risk that they have, probably more than any other single investor in the fund. Jay, what's the biggest mistake you've made as an investor? Oh, there's so many. I'm going to say, and this is, I get asked this question a lot, I don't do what I've preached for a long time, which is you make money and real estate by holding long term. I flipped about 500 houses between 2008 and 2017.

26:27I like to say I made 500 mistakes between 2008 and 2017. I probably left about $60 million on the table by flipping those houses versus holding them. Now, certainly I couldn't have held everyone. I didn't have the capital to hold 500 houses. But even if I would have flipped two and held one, I left $20 million on the table by selling everything instead of holding some of those. So the biggest mistake I've made is not following that advice, which is you make money by holding long term. So in your current funds, then you said, hey, we're definitely not going to hold it for 40 years, even though it's ground up. Why don't there are a lot of operators that are getting investors in these infinite deals? Are you not doing that? I'd love to do that. My investors don't want that. So my investor profile tends to be younger investors, folks who are looking to turn their capital over quickly. We would love to do that. In fact, whenever we do a deal, one of the things we'll do is we'll send a survey out to all of our investors and say, hey, we're thinking about doing a deal. What if you were to come into to a deal right now?

27:27What's the return profile you're looking for? You're looking for cash flow? Are you looking for total returns? Are you looking for tax benefits? Are you looking for a three-year deal, a five-year deal, a 10-year deal, longer? Those types of questions, how much are you looking to deploy? Because we want to understand what our investors are looking for. At the end of the day, we can find the best deal in the world. If we can't find investors for that deal, it doesn't matter. And so we're going to structure a deal around what our investors are looking for. And we just have a number of investors, mostly on the younger side, who don't appreciate tax benefits that don't appreciate, like the long-term holds. They would rather do these shorter deals. And so we give them that. And then we take our profits as the GP, and we invest privately in deals that we hold for a long term. The problem, though, is investors will say, yeah, we want less than five. We want three-year holds when you sell the property they get pissed off because the check stop coming in. It's tough. It is a decision to be in it. I hear that. Okay. So you answered the question that you are actually holding long-term on your own. Because, honestly, Jay, I was going to push back on that. You have a big audience, surely, within that you can find investors who do want 15-year or 20-year.

28:27We can. But at the end of the day, when you're raising capital, you look for the easiest path. And if we can raise two million from those investors versus 15 million from investors that want shorter term, we're going to go the path of lease for this. All right. So I'm very opinionated on this because prior to rates going up, you never saw multifamily syndicators do anything longer than five-year holds. Yep. It was always three to five-year exits. Now, rates went up. Deals are harder to find. They don't pencil out as well. And then we create this fancy marketing, infinite hold period, generational fun. I think it's all bullshit because their deals don't pencil out in five years. So they need a longer runway. In real estate, a long runway could outrun a lot of bad deals. I think the generational holds are a cop out because the deals not good enough to withstand a three to five-year hold period. Do you agree or think it's okay to do infinite hold? I've seen a couple ways of structuring the infinite holds.

29:27The ones I like that I don't believe really exist in real life are we're going to refinance in three to five years. Get all of your capital back. We're going to retain the asset. You're going to retain your equity in the asset. You'll have all of your capital back and you'll continue to get paid on the coupon for however many years. I don't think that really exists in theory. It's great. But it speaks everywhere. Even if you do a hybrid model where the plan is we're going to refinance in three to five years, you're going to get 40% of your capital back and you're going to continue to cash flow. If you run the numbers, the IRR might actually make sense and it might be a better deal than a short-term hold. But I agree with you. It's very, especially these days when we're seeing negative leverage off of high interest rate loans, you're just not going to see a lot of deals that make sense to hold for the long term that are also going to generate a decent amount of return. To put this into perspective for this deal that I'm doing this 351 unit development,

30:28it's in an opportunity zone. We literally could have started an opportunity zone fund, hold it for 10 years and our investors can get tremendous tax benefits. You know what they told us? Not interested. And so at the end of the day, we're not going to do a deal that our investors don't want. And so yes, sometimes you just have to make decisions that you don't believe are optimal as long as you're investors. You don't give your stock broker all of your money and say, I'll see you in 10 years. Why are people doing that in real estate? It's the dumbest thing ever. I mean, the one thing we love about real estate is that it can heal itself. If you have a deal that's not performing as long as you're not in a distressed position where you're at risk of losing the deal, you can wait it out. We have deals three to five years that we're five years in and it's just not an opportune time to sell. We're not going to sell and compromise returns for our investors when we honestly believe that if we wait a year or two or three, a lot of those those financial problems are going to be rectified and we're going to have a chance for a very decent return.

31:32And so that's one of the things I love about real estate is that you can change your exit strategy. Well, Jay, we've been such a huge fan of yours for a very long time. Great finally meeting you and doing this live in person at best ever conference. So thank you so much for your time. I know you're everywhere, but where should people get a hold of you? Yeah, go to jscott.com, the letter J, scot.com. And that'll link you out to everything I do and sign up for my newsletter. Send me an email if you have any questions. Heck yeah, it's a good newsletter too. So make sure you go sign up for it. Best ever listeners. Thanks for joining in today. Make sure you share this. Always drops knowledge bombs and we kept it light. We didn't go too crazy into the economics. So share it out. Make sure you're following, subscribe and have a best time for day. You didn't want to ask about the latest job. No, we wouldn't understand what it really meant is Ash. Lesson number 10. Thanks Jay. Thanks.