Jay Moore … Kumé And Remo

0:00Only a handful of people on this earth have traveled to every country in the world. In fact, more people have been to outer space than have earned their way into this. The ultimate travel club comprised of 193 member states recognized by the United Nations. Welcome to the only podcast that brings you the stories from the dedicated few who have spent their lives on the singular quest to travel to them all. Welcome to Counting Countries with your host, Rick Gizarrion. Hey now I'm your host Rick Gizarrion in this episode. I had the pleasure of speaking with Jay Moore. Jay was early to a lifestyle as a digital nomad in the arts and leveraged the couch surfing community to build some lifetime friendships. But he only connected with the extreme travel community in the last couple of years.

1:00You can meet Jay and over 225 people who are joining the extraordinary travel fest October, Bangkok. The clock is really ticking. I'd like to thank everyone for their support of Counting Countries, especially my patrons. Be some miles, Ted Nimz, Adam Hickman, Steph Rose, Simon Fulpick, Matheson, Ed Hotschkiss Barry Hoffner, Phillip Zidian, Jen, Sunir Joshi, Carl Satham, Sonya Zimmerman, Justin, Perforsberg, George Serpa, Sam Williams, Scott Day, Peter Finger, Mihai Deskulu, Ryna, Zipping around the world podcast, Sean McDonough, McKayne Siegel, Avi Yvonne, Stephyn Krasowski, they're supporting the podcast. You can too go to patreon.com slash counting countries. My patrons hear the entire conversation with Jay. You will not. And there's some other goodies as well. Really the time has come. There's not much time to act, but you can still join us in Bangkok, extraordinary travel

2:05festival, October 22 to 25. I would like to share with you a speaker, Andrew Bancfield, we'll be speaking about another quest, not about counting countries, but for searching for yetis, bigfoot or maybe you know them as Sasquatch in a quest that brought him to Nepal, Bhutan, India, and Burma. Andrew is a top rated BBC podcaster and author. You can join the event, use the code Bangkok to save $100. If you have any questions, please let me know. And also during the conversation with Jay, we speak about health insurance. Genki is the official supporter of ETF. They have a great health solution that literally covers you in every country in the world. Check out the show notes for the link. I was in Bangkok. Well, Jay was in South Africa for this recording. Please listen in and enjoy.

3:08Jay, welcome to counting countries. Please introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Jay. I'm originally from Santa Cruz, California in the States. I'm an entrepreneur and investor and I've operated businesses remotely for about 20 years. My life has always been built around travel and freedom and I'm currently in a four year nomadic stretch. I'm pretty new to the extreme travel community, so I'm looking forward to speaking to you. Well, I'm looking forward to speaking to you as well. It sounds like you designed your life in a optimal fashion so you can marry both working and entrepreneurship and of course with travel. So we're going to get to learn a lot about you today and your travels. And also I'm going to be seeing you very shortly. You're coming to Bangkok to the extraordinary travel festival. What was your motivation? What prompted you to come to the ETF? Yeah, because I am new to the community, I really wanted to get to know more people and

4:09I feel like through the brief interactions I've had with the extreme traveler community, I feel like I found my tribe and I want to meet more people. So that's really it. And that's enough. ETF is really the perfect platform to interact with like-minded people. I would say that is almost the main driver behind the event is, as you said, meeting your tribe, meeting your community, networking and learning a lot of great information. I think you said you were born in Cali. Let's get back into our time machine. I want to know about you, your family, growing up, how big a part of your life was travel or maybe not at all. Yeah, I'm traveling in my childhood mostly revolved around cross-country skiing in the Sierra Nevada's, camping along the California coast, a pretty outdoorsy family. So we enjoyed kind of getting away from the crowds. And I did a big road trip as a five-year-old.

5:13We moved across the country to Ithaca, New York and that was really eye-opening my first kind of multi-state road trip and yeah, it opened my eyes to exploring a bit. You were a kid, only five years old. It sounds like it actually made an impression on you. What was that, I guess, change or switch like going from California and then ending up in upstate New York? Yeah, well, my dad is a professor, so we were on a one-year sabbatical. So it was temporary, but the change was big with the weather alone having snow days and negative 30 below. So it was a big change from California, but we're still speaking English and it opened my eyes though mostly through getting to move around and see different landscapes and parts of the massive country I was born in. Beyond that, you mentioned these great outdoor road trips with the family, the cross-country

6:17skiing. Were there any holidays or vacations? Were you guys flying to Mexico or London or any other sort of trips or altimistic? Well, there was a road trip up into Canada. We did go to a short vacation over the holidays in the Bahamas, but I think the big international trip for me was we took another sabbatical year at the age of nine and moved to Leeds in England for a little over a year and that allowed me to travel a bit around Europe and that was probably my first real international experience. That sounds exciting. Of course, you're still speaking English, but a definitively a different type of accent. And as you also mentioned, you are getting to visit the continent as well. Not a young kid only nine, but maybe there's some other additional impressions, thoughts

7:18or memories. What was it like for you to move to England and then going, I don't know where to France or to Germany? What were those memories or impressions like on those trips? It was definitely a different experience going to school in the UK wearing the uniform with the tie. And beyond those formalities, I really remember camping in Scotland, traveling around Great Britain, farm stays and whales. We visited a graduate student of my father's in Venice and I remember her whipping through these small streets, staying in this very old house that felt like a castle looking at these antiques. That was really eye-opening for me. We did a ski trip in Switzerland and I remember seeing Mount Blanc and being in the Alps for the first time was very memorable. Like your family took advantage of this great experience and you got to see a lot.

8:23Also as a kid, you're starting to do some of these trips. Did this affect you in any other ways? Are you a kid that might have been staring at a map or atlas or spinning a globe or collecting postcards or coins or stamps? Doing any sort of collection type things as a kid? I didn't have a collection per se but I became very interested in geography and I had a globe in my room. I used to just spin it and stare it and put my hand down on different points. So really, it really got me more curious about the world. You do your year or so in Europe, you head back to the US. What's kind of the next step in your travel life? Any other trips with the family, high school field trip? What else is going on? We mostly stayed domestic for the next few years. I started high school. I remember a particularly memorable trip.

9:24We told our parents we were going down to look at universities in San Diego in Southern California. We ended up taking my car across the border to Mexico as 16-year-olds and exploring a bit in Baja and Dijuana. That was a fun little trip but it was pretty limited until I got later in life. It sounds like you made it to Mexico and back in one piece. Then the wiser did you tell them at some point that you guys had snuck down to Mexico? They know now but we did not mention it at the time. Let them sleep all night. They don't have to worry. Okay, so what did happen next? You graduate college, you maybe go to university. What's kind of that next big trip that you took? Yeah, I attended the University of San Diego. I studied business administration and I was somewhat immature.

10:27I didn't do any study abroad programs which I regret now but I just focused on college life and potential work. I left the university with only really traveling to Mexico regularly and that's because it was so close to me. It was very limited at that point. It sounds somewhat similar to my university experience as well. Then you graduate university, when is that first big trip that you take? Yeah, it took me like a lot of Americans. I came out of university in debt and went to work right away in a corporate position. It wasn't until I left that job a couple years later that I went to Europe with a friend. We visited the UK, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and that was kind of in between me going back to join an MBA program.

11:28It was a short, about a one month trip and that was really my first time traveling internationally alone and doing my own planning and staying in hostels. Again, fairly limited because I was so focused on education. What was the inspiration there? Was it just the fact that you had this gap between MBA and the career and you're like, well other friends of mine have done this. I loved Europe as a nine year old. I want to go back. What kind of inspired you to do that trip? Yeah, exactly. I had a friend working in London at that time so that kind of kick started it and then just that I'd never explored Europe on my own. Many other people had at that point and I felt like I needed to go there without the parents and explore them on my own. Will I have this gap? What was your takeaways that you brought home with you? You got to go there for a month. You didn't have to worry about work for once. You didn't worry about studying.

12:30You got this great exposure as an older person now to see the continent, these places with much richer or longer histories than the US. You come home and are you like, oh that was a great one month trip which I'll never duplicate again. Now it's back to studies and getting a traditional corporate life again or how did it impact you? Yeah, it's really interesting. I think you nailed it. It was wonderful to see Europe again later in life but it didn't really hit me yet. I went back in that trip and it was like this is a chance I get between this MBA program and I may not get this chance again. I really didn't consider the impact until later in life but it did kickstart my curiosity. I found out that it's pretty easy to travel around Europe and it was not so daunting

13:30to plan on my own. The hostile network is very extensive and that stuck with me but I was still thinking on this is just a kind of one time thing. I think that mentality has to hold true for many Americans and what I mean by that there's a sense in general a lot of Americans get two weeks vacation a year. The mentality is you graduate high school, you graduate university and in essence you work 50 weeks a year from that point until you reach the age of 65. There's no mentality like you might see in Australia or Europe where you don't live to work but you want to live beyond that. This mentality is you have this one opportunity, this one break. I'm going to go do this for one month but then you're going to get back on the corporate train again. Do you think that's a fair assessment of your mentality or what do you think was what

14:35was happening? Exactly. Yeah and I think the American culture of this very clear career path and life path sets us kind of up for that and that's where my mind was as well and I hadn't really thought outside that box. A little bit at this point I was working on some startups and trying to break away from the corporate world but I was still pretty sure that that was my life and travel would be limited to these couple weeks at the time I had 10 days of vacation. That's it. That's not enough. That's not fair. We need to move to France. Exactly. You're working on your MBA, I'm guessing you go back into the corporate world. Are you sneaking in trips here and there or is it really back to the, again, the mindset of I got to put in my 40, 50, 60 hours a week and I got to climb the ladder and I'll go holiday when I'm 65.

15:36Yeah. It really, I finished the MBA. I went to work in management consulting. I ended up leaving that career path and going back to school, getting a master's in education and deciding I wanted to teach like both my parents and so I was going to teach high school and I really, I went right back into it. I think the default for me was kick the can down the road a bit with more education until you figure out what you want to do and I knew I didn't want that corporate typical American life but I didn't know quite a way out of it yet. So I kept going back to school, kept trying to develop my own startup to give me that freedom. I thought maybe being an educator because it's in my genes, I guess, in my blood and it would give me those summers and holidays off that that would be a way but I still wasn't traveling much. Was that a heart transition for you? Getting an MBA, spending two years of your life, the financial commitment, you do that

16:40and you get a career in that, in the MBA based upon your MBA and in consulting and then you make a big left turn, go back to school again and switch from business right into education. Was that a difficult decision for you to make or was it your heart was calling and saying, you know, the business consulting is not really a great fit for me and I simply, my heart's not there. Yeah, it was, it was a difficult decision but at the end of the day I knew my heart wasn't there and I needed to find another way but it was really hard. I had to go back to bartending and waiting tables at night as someone in their late 20s with an MBA and people kind of looking down on you like, what are you doing here? Yeah. So yeah, it was tough. To me, thinking about that, you have all this sunk cost, both financially and time wise where you made this commitment and yeah, that takes, I think that takes a lot of courage

17:42for you to say, your late 20s, oh, I can just set it up for the next 30 years and play out my career and consulting even though I'm not very passionate about that. You made this really, I would say radical decision to, in essence, give that pathway up and go restart your life and career. Now one of the benefits of being a teacher, which you noted, you get a decent summer vacation and set, you know, a couple of weeks here and there during the school year, but you also inferred if I heard you correctly, you weren't really taking advantage of that and traveling on those breaks. Is that correct? And if so, why not? Yeah, well, the interesting thing is, as I finished my student teaching and was offered a job, one of the startups I had been working on actually started taking off and getting some traction. And so I had a decision to make whether I go with the safe route or put my effort and

18:45time into the startup. And so I actually never started my teaching career. And I, yeah, so a lot of that. After all that. So I went full time, full time on my own in 2007 and I haven't looked back. Well, I'm going to say, you started your own business, share with us what that was, what the business was. It was the fourth startup I had mostly in the tech and men's services. And I had put, you know, put several years into these businesses they had all failed. But you learn a little more each time. And I started to work with a friend of mine who he had created one of the early crowdfunding companies, businesses, websites. Well before go fund me Kickstarter.

19:46And this was one of the craziest ideas. He had a friend in, well, she worked with him in his web development firm. And she was a model and she wanted to get a breast augmentation to help her modeling career. And my friend thought that he could get people to donate for this online. And he created this website for her and very simple with SEO and a PayPal link. And he funded that in about four months. And just with chatting with donors online and it was one of the early crowdfunding businesses. And that led to a company we started social funding. And we licensed that back end database and technology for people to build their own crowdfunding sites. 2005, 2006, so really early. And so we ran that business for 10 years and that particular site became a multi-million dollar featured on dozens of television networks.

20:48And because it was such a radical kind of hilarious idea and how it came about. So yeah, it's an interesting business to hit first when you started an email security and hardware and management solutions. So you guys were ahead of the curve there. It sounds like if you know this out of curiosity, what year was GoFundMe started? I want to say was about 2009 ish, 2008, 2009. And we crowdfunding was not a term yet. We trademarked the term social funding, which we thought would take off, but it did not. Yeah, I think we were a couple years before before any of the major sites we know today. Fantastic and interesting. Now are you in that founder mode, i.e., you're grinding it out non-stop, no time for anything else, but the business, what was it like? I think you think if it take 10 years, you're running that business.

21:50Yeah, well, the interesting thing about that business is we started traveling almost immediately when that business took off. So we put, we put, I mean, we were still working and grinding to some degree, but it gave us the freedom to start traveling. And so really the first few years of that grinding took place in, you know, in 2005, 2006, 2007. And once it was going and operational, really, you know, a crowdfunding site sort of can run itself besides, you know, some administration on the back end and, you know, developers. And so it's, it's a business that's fairly low maintenance once it got going. You got the economies of scales, the back end was working and then you had some time that was freed up. Yes, exactly. And it led to me being able to start other businesses along the road. So it was, what type of trips were you, what type of trips were you taking at this point? IE were these the more traditional trips back to Europe or Mexico or the Caribbean.

22:56What were you doing during this time period of founder mode, but not intense grinding founder mode? Yeah. The, the, the first trip that really kicked things off was to visit one of my best friends who was teaching English in Japan. And we visited him. We also took a trip to Thailand. And that was my first time in Asia. And that really opened my eyes. And the co-founder and myself were childhood friends. We came back from that trip and decided that we wanted to see more of the world. And so we ended up booking, you know, almost immediately that spring in 2008 around the world ticket. And we took off from that point and that really started my full time kind of remote working career. Yeah, the, the, it was really the transition from, from not traveling at all to travel being, you know, everything.

23:56The big part of your life. What year or so was that when you bought that round the world ticket? It was early 2008 and it was a one world explorer. And you actually had to go to the airport and get them to ride it out by hand. And it was, you know, I'm one of the carbon slips and you had to hand these tickets. Yeah, they hand these tickets individually when you took a flight. And if you lost that ticket, you lost the whole trip. So a lot of added stress that you have to hold onto that pretty dearly. I don't have a lot of possessions, but I still have that ticket. Oh, that, that's a great momenta. That, that's great. You're able or remember to keep that. Also, that, you're telling this story. There is a speaker and ETF participant and a former guest of this podcast, a little bit of a similarity with you, Jason Wang, who was in Northern California, San Fran area, who developed an app.

24:57He sold it and give her take, I think, starting around age 30 him and his partner have been traveling the world for multiple years. So you two will have to share a moment to talk about entrepreneur founders who have pivoted more into world travel. Definitely. I look, look forward to speaking to him. When you did that trip to Japan and Thailand taking a step back, that, it sounds like was opening up a door a little bit. You're, I think the majority of Americans, if you're doing that first trip, you know, say beyond Mexico, the Caribbean or Canada, you're going to Europe and you had done that in your gap month between work and school. And while Thailand and Japan are obviously not, let's say, challenging locations per say, the culture, the history, the people are quite different, right? I mean, these are almost the opposite of the Western world.

26:00And what was your thought there that, you know, hey, I have the Western experience in Europe and the US, now I'm seeing this entirely different way of life and perspective. What did you guys take away from that trip? I think you nailed it. It's really the first time I've been exposed to a very different culture than my own. And, you know, Europe is, it is different and it has a lot more history and depth than the US per say, but Japan, Thailand, really, really opened my eyes to what else was out there in the world. And it gave me that drive to, to want to see more and to investigate long-term travel and remote, you know, remote work. And because I wanted to spend, you know, this was a pretty short three week trip. I wanted to have more depth of experience in these countries. So it's, yeah, there's no replacement for going to a very, very different ancient culture than your own.

27:01What was a takeaway memory? Was it taking a river taxi down the Chowpria in Bangkok? Was it visiting one of the amazing temples in Bangkok? Was it seeing Mount Fuji in the background? What's one of those memories that you took home with you from that trip? That would be one of those stories you would share with one of your friends at a bar. Yeah, a couple things from Japan. The great Buddha, I think it's Kamakura, was extremely impressive to me. And we also, we also did some traditional onsens and, you know, as foreigners getting into the Japanese culture, and that was really a lot of fun. We don't have these bathing houses in the US. So for me, that was a total new experience.

28:01Just getting the chance to spend time with my friends, Japanese friends, that made me want to live somewhere, slow travel, have a chance to really get to know locals. So I think it was not just about the sites, it was the people and getting to speak with them and learn that we don't, you know, we're not that different. We have a lot in common. And yeah, so a couple of sites and also the people. Let's go back to the Round the World ticket. You booked that ticket and back in those days, you had to choose every single location upfront. How did you decide on the gateways of that trip? That's a great question. I wanted to maximize that ticket. And so this is kind of the start of my, my love of travel planning and route planning. The way that I did it, we got 20 segments and five continents on this one world explored ticket. And the way to maximize was to obviously book non-stop segments.

29:04So you wanted to look for one world hubs. So maybe American Airlines, LAX, British Airways, you know, Heathrow, Hong Kong for Catholic Pacific, Tokyo for Jail, Santiago for Lone at the time it's Lottom now. So moving between those one world hubs, Madrid, you know, for Iberia, that was the way to do it. And also not wasting your segments on short flights. So like within Europe, we used a Euro rail pass in Southeast Asia. We booked, you know, our own, our own tickets. Use them on the longer connectors, especially those flights that are extremely expensive and rare like Auckland to Santiago. So you, you know, use them on the, between the one world hubs, essentially, and look for non-stop flights. Out of curiosity, Jay, was this a fun exercise for you? Did you enjoy the work of putting together that itinerary in being able to optimize it?

30:09Absolutely. You could probably hear it in my voice now. I'm still smiling about this, this planner. They had an online planner and you could kind of draw out your route. And I had the best time doing that. That travel planning never feels like work to me. And sometimes I enjoy the planning more than the actual travel. I'm probably not the only one. But I absolutely love the challenge of optimizing routes and led me to becoming sort of an aviation and points and miles nerds. So this came a bit later. When you were describing that, what I heard was an affliction, both a positive and a negative affliction of those in the extreme travel community. And as you insinuated, you love this part of the game. The logistics, the routes, the codes. And I think at some level, if you're an extreme traveler, you have to love opening up the hood of the car and tinkering around with the engine.

31:11And yeah, I think a lot of us have this tree in common. When you look back, oh, this awesome around the world trip ticket, you went to most multiple places, cities around the world. Tell me one story, one awesome story, memory that you look back with such great fondness. Probably it'd be a culmination of couch surfing experiences. And I'll just give you the first one. As Americans were sort of taught to be fearful of strangers. We're sold a lot of insurance. You just don't go stay at a stranger's house or have them stay your house. It's not quite part of our culture. And so the first time I couch served in Glasgow, it's 2008. And I rock up to the door. And in my mind, this is a couple of students. It should be fine.

32:11But also creeping in there was maybe these people are ax murders and they're going to kill me. So it's this fear mongering that the stranger danger. And so the story is not particularly memorable. But it opened my mind to the couch surfing community. The people were wonderful. They were just students in Glasgow from Lima and we cooked together. They were German, Peruvian and Australian. I just had the best time with this crew and explored the city, made meals together. And that opened my mind to couch surfing. And I ended up couch surfing dozens of times on that trip. And also hosting when I got back. So while that story is not particularly interesting or crazy, you'd open that door and made me a lot more comfortable with letting people into my home. Were were any of those hosts named Dexter?

33:12No, that's that's a positive thing. I don't I can't remember what your coach surfing started, but that has to be somewhat relatively in the beginning of the history. Yeah, I think it was oh six or something around there. There you go. The smartphone just started. I think in oh seven, the first iPhone, if I got that right as well, American thought process culture and I'm sure a fair amount of places around the world, it seems illogical that you're randomly going to show up at some strangers house and move in with them for day or week. But at the height of code surfing fame and success, this was just an unbelievably great platform to travel a little less expensively and to great have these great connections and relationships around the world and nice to see that you paid it for it. So you got back home and you also opened up your door as a host as a surfer is there.

34:19I always like superlatives either the worst or the best who was even the like the best person that you connected with through all your years or the worst, whether you're hosting or staying at someone's house, someone that maybe you're still in touch with 18 years later. Any story you can tell here about us. I think it was 2011 and I hosted a Swiss couple and I usually don't take last minute requests but they're hosted canceled on them and they were already in Santa Cruz and you know, they were really needing a place to say they were young students and so I said what the hack and you know, I met them in a few hours and they ended up staying, I think originally it was two days planned but they had been staying five days and we became really good friends. I went to Switzerland with my girlfriend the following year. That couple ended up splitting up but I saw them individually and traveled with with Rainbow. We've been probably six or seven countries together from Cuba to Colombia to all over Europe.

35:27He's come to the US and I still see him regularly in what it's almost 15 years. So we've created some good friendships through couch surfing. Of course you're not going to vibe and get along with everyone but he was into surfing, you know, kite surfing, we had similar interests, we liked to cycle and yeah, we both liked a bit of nightlife so it was a great connection. That's amazing. Such a great story. It's the ket testimonial for the Kud surfing website, right? Fifty of your friendship. You guys went on these amazing trips and all, you know, that was the, your goodness, goodness of you at the last minute really coming to their rescue. That's quite awesome to hear. Back to the round the world trip. We had that great kind of, shall we say, change point where you're like, okay, I can trust strangers. You know, this isn't as crazy as it sounds.

36:28We had kind of the people aspect from that trip around the world. What was a place that you visited, a city, a monument, a landmark, a park, a beach, that stood out from that trip? God, I have to say going down to Patagonia and doing hiking, I mean, just, I'd never really, well, it was obviously my first time in South America, but I'd never imagined, because I was, you know, so naive about the world at the time, I didn't imagine to have mountains like that in South America and doing Fitzroy and some of these hikes around Elchleton. I'll never forget that village and how accessible these day hikes were and that just opened my eyes like you should know about Patagonia, but you don't. It really required me going there to know what was, what was available to me. And so I really remember that. Yeah, nothing like seeing it with your own eyes to truly appreciate the place, the experience.

37:35You do this awesome trip. It comes to an end. Are you thinking of the next business? Are you thinking of the next opportunity or are you thinking about the next travel opportunity? What was your mindset? Yeah, the impact was massive. I came back from this trip a little less than a year later and I had traveled mostly with a 44 liter backpack and then a small other backpack like on the front. So carry on, very lightweight, couch surfing, hostels, guest house. And I came back to my storage unit which was in the Bay Area in Oakland, California. I pulled everything out of it. I put everything on the curb with a free sign and I've never owned any furniture since. I took a pretty extreme route to minimalism and that was probably the most immediate outcome from that trip is my lifestyle changed the way I lived, changed even when I wasn't traveling.

38:37And that was kind of an unexpected outcome from this trip that I knew I would want to travel more but I didn't know it would affect my whole lifestyle. You're describing to me jumping off a cliff. What's like your life? Here is a guy who goes to school, works a little, gets an MBA, works even more, starts his own company, works even harder. And you're describing someone deciding to become a full-time digital nomad. When you, it's a big deal, you got rid of your apartment before that round the world trip. You put your stuff in storage. You come back, you open up that storage and you get rid of everything that you've had, that you've collected, saved, paid for in your life. And you said, okay, I'm going to this full-time digital nomad vagabond lifestyle before that

39:40was the really thing. I'm pretty sure we did not use the word digital nomad in 08 or 09. How did you have the courage, the guts, the confidence to make this big jumping off the cliff? Action. I think it was just how I'd lived on that round the world trip and that I realized that I didn't need much and I saw so many people in these countries I was visiting with very little but still extremely happy and I just realized I don't need all that stuff and it's actually weighing me down. And I wanted also the freedom to move around and live somewhere else and not be held back by all this stuff that I really didn't feel like I needed. And so it was a fairly easy transition. My general rule at the time was everything I owned had to fit in my car and I didn't have a particularly big car. So that might be a bicycle, a snowboard, some clothes, a few personal possessions and

40:46I kind of would move from furnished department to furnished department and you know, still mostly in the Bay Area but yeah it was a fairly easy transition even though it sounds so extreme. I'm going to have to side with it being a big deal and a big change. You have the confidence and really it sounds like that one year was so impactful on you that you looked at these different perspectives and perceptions of other travelers, all the local people you met around the world and you said I am really going to go back home and completely redesign my life. And I would say, you know, I mean obviously everybody uses the term vagabond and no bad and digital nomad over the last X years but back then giving up a successful corporate career or entrepreneurial ship career.

41:46That's kind of a bit more radical in the 0809 around that period. Okay, so you've given everything away. You've packed up everything in your car. I guess it sounds like you're occasionally renting fully furnished departments here and there. Now share with me how you are integrating travel in your life at this point. So at that point, I had a home base in the Bay Area. I was in Oakland and San Francisco back in my hometown of Santa Cruz but I was probably traveling still about half of the year and mostly taking two to three maybe four week. We'll call them, you know, quick vacations and then coming back. I was very motivated by travel hacking deals or points and miles deals and so sometimes I would just go wherever there's a cheap flight on points or somewhere I hadn't been. And so I was kind of mixing in these short trips with trying to keep my business as a flow.

42:47So it was probably a balance 50, 50 travel with, yeah, with that at that point in my life. I'm looking what I would call the next inflection point and what I'm defining that as is we'll call it a challenging country. Of course, that word is extremely subjective but what is that first challenging or off the beat and path country that you went to when you start really doubling down on your your travel? I think you would have to be Ethiopia. I believe the year was 2012 and it was my first one of my first solo somewhat challenging countries and I again, I couch served there but I definitely had some complications along the way and so that that really taught me a lot about the need to to plan better.

43:48I was working off probably a rough guy I believe but you know, pre smartphone I didn't have GPS and I did pretty well for my limited resources but it taught me that I really need to prepare better and that not all countries can be figured out when you get on the ground. When you decided to pull the trigger go to Ethiopia, did you know that you were raising your game so to speak, did you realize that Ethiopia was going to be a bit different of an animal versus Thailand, Greece or Chile? I did. I understood that but at the same time I believe I was overconfident with the way that I had been traveling to that point and while I knew it would be different, I thought I could still figure things out on the go and you know, I learned that it's a lot more challenging when there's a lack of data and information and language barriers and so

44:50it was a really good country to kind of take off my training wheels and figure out what real travel planning and preparation involves when you're going to a more challenging country. Did that act as a springboard or did it make you more reticent to keep on visiting IE more challenging countries? It did. It gave me some confidence to know that I could do it and that I could improve and shortly after that I did another sort of round the world trip for a couple years and visited a few more challenging countries along that route and it gave me a little more courage especially because it was one of the first solo countries I'd done that you know, it wasn't very easy to do let's say. So it especially gave me some confidence and my ability to go along. When you did that trip to Ethiopia, do you recall kind of one of those snaffles of that

45:53that didn't go really well? I wish this had happened instead or I kind of screwed up here. Do you remember any? I was drugged in Gondor, Ethiopia and that was completely my own fault and I had been couch surfing you know with having an amazing experience in Otis and you know I went for a cup of coffee in a local's house that I probably shouldn't have and it's somewhat of a long story but I got out of there and I kind of realized what was going on before I had too much of this coffee and it made it out of there but it was eye opening that you know not every local experience is safe and wonderful and I had you know been kind of overwhelmed with the kindness I'd experienced in Otis with my host and so I was very open at the time and that really taught me to be a little more guarded.

46:54I'm curious you're having coffee, you're in this person's house and your spidey sense started tingling. It sounded like you knew you had to get out of here. How did you know so? What gave it away that you might have been a little bit at risk at that point? Yeah, it's really interesting. That's the key to the story. The teenager who I had gone with to his mother's house who had sort of been following and you know tagging along with me all day while I visited the city sites independently in some of the cave churches and he was a really interesting kid. I taught him several languages very outgoing and I wanted to just buy him a meal as a thank you and he really wanted me to meet his family and it was just his mother. He'd lost his father and brother and he was kind of the man at the house at probably 13. Well, we're sitting in, you know, it's a very makeshift sort of corrugated metal house

47:57and his mother's preparing the coffee and she's you know working on that and he has become very nervous and he had been very playful and funny during the day. He's now not making eye contact, pulling on his shirt. I just his his behavior made me nervous and after one cup of coffee, they spoke amongst themselves and said it was customary to have three servings and at that point I knew it was time to get out of there. It sounds like you could be a pretty good detective on one order. You're picking up these physical cues. I don't know if I'd be sharpened up. You leave, you walk to your hotel or whatever. Could you feel the effect of the drug at that point or what was going on that? Oh yeah. So the kid actually he wanted to accompany me back to my hotel and there was it was a bit of a walk maybe one and a half kilometers and it was somewhat rural outside the city.

49:03And I remember I had to walk through this sort of forested part of the stretch before the hotel and looking at the forest in the distance the trees started dancing and that's when the real fear set in and I knew that I had taken something I did not know how much. I didn't know how long I would be upright. I had to think quickly and fortunately between where I was and this forest was a semi-famous restaurant all the forest sisters and I still remember the restaurant well the name it was Italian food from the Italian influence in Ethiopia and I was able to stumble down to that restaurant and get to a table order something and I passed out. And again this is an interesting story that you wake up and the staff is helping you they called

50:04and what kind of happened next. The staff just assumed I was probably drunk and I woke up fairly quickly I think it'd been 30 minutes or something I probably didn't have that much of whatever was given to me. And but I was extremely paranoid and still high on on whatever drug I had ingested and I didn't want to tell them what had happened I also was worried about who was waiting outside for me. There was no taxis the way you got around was literally a horse with a little cart behind it and I was even worried to take one of these and finally I did have the staff call me one and it took me to the hotel but going through that forest I was not thinking straight and I was sure someone was waiting for me and I didn't tell the hotel right away I tried to call the US embassy I didn't get through to them I didn't really know what to do and I ended up calling a doctor friend

51:05of mine and he kind of gave me some instructions on how to approach the evening and that really helped. The reality is this is the real deal. Now when we talk to our peers our friends in the community I think the first statement is all people are good all people are kind and then we spoke about your original reticence of maybe coach surfing is a crazy idea but what happened you go to glass how you make these great people another time these this great Swiss couple stays with you and it becomes a lifelong friend that's the reality and most people are good people but not all people are good people and this is the reality of our world whatever the fraction you want to say the percentile if it's 1 percent or 0.01 you were one step away from hypothetically being killed or kidnapped right it could have been a simple drugging and they would have robbed you or I mean it

52:08obviously happens in some cases where they you know they could have killed you in the forest so that is extremely sobering right and I mean it puts you back on your heels a little bit you had built up multiple years of confidence building great relationships trusting strangers and then you had something that could have changed your life forever how did this affect your travels going forward from that point on yeah I really noticed that the years of positive experiences with couch surfing and sort of giving me these rose colored glasses to local experiences and I was definitely more cautious for the remainder in in Ethiopia I actually booked some guides and I was a little nervous to go around on my own so it changed it changed right in that trip and I think I was you know rightfully so a little a little paranoid and so it it changed right away but didn't last too long

53:09and I still I love Ethiopia I am still in touch with kumi the couch surfing host in audis and was able to to connect with him and help him get to the US actually which is a sidebar but it really didn't it didn't keep me from having these local experiences again but I was definitely more cautious well I'm glad you connect reconnect reconnected with kumi and stayed in touch with them but the real question are you still in touch with that boy and his mother I am I'm not but the the interesting part of that someone actually called me this is a you know the the end of the story was was with him actually in jail and someone had called me on behalf of his mother and was looking for him and I assume he was he was in jail and so this is a this is a longer part of the story

54:13but you know I don't know what happened to him but really I think his you know his mother should have been the one who was who was reprimanded for this because he was sort of just upon in her games as far as I J we shared a bunch of negative experiences in Ethiopia and to be candid I've also had my fair share of bad experiences in Ethiopia not not as bad as yours but unpleasant ones let's leave this country on a high note what is something good or great or memorable about this ancient country and civilization I was blown away by the the Axumite Empire and how little I knew about it for prior to going to Ethiopia how expansive the empire is the obliques the the monolithic churches in Malibella I was struck by the the really rich rich culture that we are not

55:13taught a thing about at least in the US and so I've really that take away and then of course I touched on it before but the friendship with Kumi and getting to kind of pay it back with him he moved to the US got a visa and I ended up getting to purchase his flight to get to Washington DC from Odess it's just a thank you to him and so we're still in touch and getting to stay with him in a local neighborhood and just do non-touristy stuff chew chatt and sit around and smoke she shut and coffee shops and hang out in a completely local neighborhood I just absolutely love that experience again this can be the second testimonial for code surfing starring Jay if we met the founders of code surfing right now and you told them that story I imagine that is that was their whole dream of being able to build those connections

56:15these global connections and on top of it the longevity which you've given these two great examples of what was his name Rimo Rimo Rimo and Kumi another great example of you paying it forward that you made this big impact and probably helped him out tremendously financially by getting him to DC great to share great to leave Ethiopia on a positive note this is still 2012 I want to hear one more story of the game of raising the ante when it comes to challenging country so we went to Ethiopia definitely developing country what was kind of next in your travels of raising the bar I'd have to say immediately after that I took a solo extended trip through South America and mostly overland and while I don't think any of those countries were as challenging

57:19as Ethiopia I think you know traveling by public transport in Bolivia and Ecuador and all over Peru is no no cup of tea it's it can be fairly unpleasant somewhat dangerous you need to really consider the logistics and so that was kind of the the next step for me was was visiting some more challenging countries and long-term traveling and using public transport that count for me because now we're now I mean you're employing several sets of skills right one it's an extended trip multiple countries you're not you know hiring G adventures to take you on a forefoot we truck to you know three countries in South America you're doing a lot of logistics planning you're maybe having to employ more Spanish to work your way around what was one of those high points of that trip that you took there I'd I'd have to say was the the nearly month I spent in

58:26sucre Bolivia the white city and I really got a chance just what you mentioned is to to practice my Spanish incredibly cheap Spanish lessons it was kind of in the middle of eight months of travel I'd spent you know a few months in in Argentina and Chile and Brazil and I was working my way north and I got to take a break there really get to know the city meet some local people study Spanish I lived in an incredibly inexpensive hostel I think the private room was $15 and this was a a very nice clean clean hostel and so it was it was a chance to sort of decompress from the the long buses and rough roads and slow down a bit you touched on it a bit there in that description staying a month in one town one place is a total game changer we got some slow travel you get to

59:26develop a routine you might know some people talk to me about the benefits of stopping in a place for one month or two months not being mobile staying in the same place going to that same coffee shop every morning give us an anecdote here of what you really liked about that month in sucre that was the first time I had done that in my short traveling career at the point at that point and it's something that I've employed moving forward as a full-time traveler you really will get burned out if you don't take these breaks and so I tried to stop at least a couple times a year in a city for just like that approximately four weeks five weeks three weeks something to give myself a break live sort of a more normal routine of work exercise maybe you know taking some language lessons yeah getting to to build that routine that you don't have on the road besides

1:00:29constantly packing moving unpacking moving and it gives you that that break to really reenergize and be ready for the next part of your adventure I'm not sure how proficient your Spanish got after that month but how did that change your trip pre sucre post sucre when I'm assuming and hoping your proficiency increased a little bit after those lessons definitely it it's tough when you're moving country to country in the Spanish is slightly different not just vocabulary but pronunciation so getting to stay in one place in practice every day I definitely was I got to a a low conversational level I'm not sure if that's a two or b one or I'm not quite sure of the scale but it really it helped my Spanish and not just just beyond the level of travel Spanish now you mentioned that was the first time you kind of adopted that that slow travel methodology but

1:01:33you started occasionally doing it after that name one other cool town city place where you set up shop for four weeks after that that you really loved and had a great experience and was love to go back one day what's that place there there's quite a few cities that you know of course pretty popular ones like Chiang Mai and Budapest but I think another smaller town also very popular town would be a Queenstown in New Zealand and that's somewhere I always thought about living and it's it's so idealic and with the lake and the mountains I just absolutely love that town it's a it's a bit pricey for being a digital nomad but the beauty is is worth it and yeah it's it's one of the most scenic places for me and when I think of small cities it's one of my favorite in the world share with us your routine when you had set up shop in Queenstown well it was really really about

1:02:41working at that point having having good coffee walking down to the lake just you know just doing what locals do I think the people are incredibly friendly so every time I would go sit outside and have an espresso I would I would meet locals there's so many great hikes and walks you can do that you know you can you can build that in part of your day I mean short one hour two hour walks around Lake Hayes just outside of Queenstown Lake Moko it's another great one the biking culture is strong so renting a mountain bike I did some some single track mountain biking I also tried heavy biking so there's so many outdoor adventures to have and it's it's also a great place to have some city life and what about Fezburger not not not not a fan not not five stars no no not not for me South I only spend like a week or 10 days but if I was ranking most beautiful landscapes

1:03:49South Island has to be in that conversation you have a affinity towards the outdoors from what you 've shared share with me three of the most beautiful landscapes from your travel let's go with again we're we'll since you've got me in New Zealand let's let's go for the the southern out smilford sound stunning stunning landscape I think it's somewhere everywhere should everyone should go one time in their life I'm really partial to where I grew up and this is you know it's I just got to be a homer and and say big sir California um and finally I think yeah the the Swiss Alps would have to be spending a lot of time there with with rainbow and getting to do road trips in Switzerland I think I'd have to go with those three kind of a generic list but

1:04:50it's my list a very very strong trifecta you are currently at 166 UN countries the end is in sight and you have I think we got to 2012 give or take or 2013 in your travel career so what we're missing 13 years but nonetheless you have described someone who's a very seasoned traveler someone who is spending multiple months a year perfecting his craft but there's always a transition point there's always a difference between being a accomplished traveler to being someone who's chasing 193 and I want you to bring us back to that day when that late bulb turned on when you pull that Excel spreadsheet out or you met a fellow traveler how did you decide to becoming this very very accomplished traveler to someone who is chasing 193 there there there wasn't one exact

1:05:56point but I've got to give a shout out to your podcast and a book called mad travelers and that is how I found out about counting countries and I started listening to the podcast in just a couple years ago in 2024 I'd never heard of ETF you had Jason Wang on where you mentioned previously and he said it was the first I think it was the you might have interviewed him last year of the year before it was a couple years ago and I'd heard the word ETF and I go what's that and so I learned about this community and I connected with a couple people through through ETF and we ended up meeting up for the Giroka Festival and in PNG I think it was it was meeting those like-minded souls and making some plans together to to really start chasing 193 seriously and having that community behind you where you could get information and sort of you know the like-minded travelers

1:07:01that then you could pair up with on trips and so prior to to that point I'd really been out here on my own you know I have a few friends who are who are fairly experienced travelers but they're not chasing 193 so it was really it was listening to the podcast which is a great a great plug for you and then and then becoming aware of these communities and meeting other travelers. Okay not only are you going to have to do a testimonial for code surfing I'm now going to have to recruit you to write something up for counting countries. I can do that. Glad I was able to glad I was able to play part in your journey but the thing that's kind of grabbing my attention you are not this newbie traveler. I mean I'm gonna kind of count your series traveling starting I think in O.A. when you bought that round the world ticket and you said you kind of found the community give or take in 2024. If I'm doing my math right that was almost

1:08:0516 years of sort of being unaware of the greater community counting countries ETF no madmenia MTP etc. I guess I'm a little surprised but what what your thoughts of IU did not kind of connect the dots. Yeah it's um it took me during covid needing some travel reading and reading mad travelers and finding out about the extreme travel community and that was sort of focused on the William Bakeland story but it also mentioned your podcast and several of the you know the top travelers in the world and yeah I'm not super active on social media that could be why I didn't learn about you know ETF or or any other community and and I just I can't believe I went this long without having any resources. Let's also give a shout out to the book mad travelers I've

1:09:05read that book it's an excellent book the author is Dave Seminarra Dave has been on the podcast and to give credit where credit students sounds like he was ahead of counting countries in the process of you finding the community so everybody add that to your wish list on Amazon and if you love reading about extreme travel and William Bakeland check out that book you also mentioned I think Goroka Festival connecting with other travelers in the extreme travel community I love name dropping tells how you connected with those travelers who they are and what that experience was like going to Goroka. Yeah um in Goroka um I had connected with uh a traveler Lawrence from Austria and we had discussed I'd give him some given him some tips about the Solomon Islands and he was um coming with

1:10:06another traveler Joao from Portugal and um I ended up meeting them at the festival while waiting for a flight um I met another American Christina who was also chasing one ninety three and had recently gone remote and so we're kind of you well not not unique but we're at the same level I guess and I think that's sort of important where you've got you know people who are fairly experienced travelers but they've got some of the hard countries left and being able to band together and kind of have travel companions in those experiences I think that's really what what I got out of it and so I will be seeing um Joao and in Comoros in a couple days and so we're we're still traveling together. There's I know what you're getting at and I I quote unquote maybe found the community 2014 2015 and I think you need three type of people in your solar system of extreme travel community.

1:11:08One you need a mentor or two or three you want someone who has done it already or who has more experienced than you who you can lean on here and there then you want a peer group if you're at the 80 or 100 country count or if you're at the 120 count or 140 you want someone who is in a relative similar position um that you can team up with and travel with and trade notes and then as you have done over your life paying it forward you want someone who's coming up in the ranks and you can be their mentor as well. What did you think of the Giroca festival? I really enjoyed it. I'm sort of an amateur photographer so you you really can't um can't find anywhere else to to photograph like that. I think the the the the sing-sing festivals are wonderful but I think the the highlight may have been visiting the the tribes privately after the

1:12:10festival and getting sort of that one-on-one experience and more time with them where it's not quite as chaotic. Now I haven't been to the Giroca or Man Hagenfest. I've seen the photos and I'm sure they're amazing events but those are held in the the town center and there's maybe a hundred tourists give or take but there's thousands of local tourists and you're in the middle of the city where you see billboards and buildings and I agree with you I went to these private sing-sings in the villages where I was with five other tours but there were 150 tribes people from 10 different tribes in a small village that was an amazing experience for me so I definitely agree with you if you have the opportunity of course you do want to see Giroca or Man Hagenfest but you really need to see it more in a quote let's say natural setting. Yeah 100% Now you just left Angola and you had a funny meetup I think in a relatively remote place tell

1:13:16us about that. Yeah I was walking up Pedro Snegra's Black Rocks which is something you usually pair with Kellondula Falls to the major waterfall in Angola and I heard a drone in the air and I also fly a drone I'm thinking who is up there right now in this pretty remote rock rock face in Angola and I get to the top and there's two travelers flying drones and one of them is a a German man and he looks at me I've been hiking around and he goes California and of course I'm I'm wearing flip flops on the hike and so I'm guilty as charged and we get to chatting about drones and travel and I sort of you know casually mentioned you know MTP and Nomad Mania and if he's a part of any of these groups and he says yes I'm number one on Nomad Mania and it's it's Michael Runko and I sheepersley look at him sorry I'm pretty new to the community I did not recognize you

1:14:25but yeah I had a really nice chat with with Michael and he was he was head in south and so was I we did not cross paths again but quite a chance meeting. It's an amazing thing about our community right remote place what is it like four hour drive from Luanda Givertow? Oh yeah I'm sure there were in a while the people they were the buzz in the drone and you're like hey great to see you and yeah you guys probably have whatever whatever it is five or 10 or 20 friends or acquaintances and common and I think that is part of the magic of this community that when you do run into somebody wherever around the world especially if it's a remote place there's a chance that you are in the same community and that's one of the things I love is connecting the dots between all these different people there. You have been traveling for a long time in months at a time and that's a

1:15:28a lot of cumulative time on the road and we're now going to try let's say a bit of a retrospective looking back one of your favorite places in the world it's a country it's a city it's a beach it's a museum it's a restaurant what's one in those special places from your travel. It would have to be Shin Goo Japan and I have a pretty long history like I mentioned with Japan about 20 years as well as some family connections and so Shin Goo is a longer story but it's on the Kipin insla it's around the bend about five hours from Osaka and the area is associated with the Kamano Kodo which is Yanesco inscribed it's the only other sort of trail or pilgrimage besides the Kamino that's Yanesco inscribed and it's it's an incredible trail network through the mountains it's also where I spread my father's ashes and so it's always going to be a special place.

1:16:34One, did you do the trail and two, tell us this has to be a very powerful moment you're in this what I imagine to be an incredibly beautiful place peaceful and you have a part of your father with you and you have this opportunity this moment to honor him to think about him share with us a little bit more about that experience. Yeah I'll try to keep this as concise as possible but I I found a guest house near a local shrine called the Kamikura temple it's one of the temples on there's five on the route and I didn't complete the whole trail I did parts of the hike but I had primarily gone there because my father was working in the area at least that's what I understood and he's a geologist and I found this guest house just on Google Maps it was near the the temple and it looked cool and I thought okay I'm gonna stay there it turns out to be a narrative space or

1:17:40home where you're staying inside a novel and I cannot really believe what happened next but the the story in the house is sort of a mystery you're supposed to solve it involves a missing foreign geologist and it is in a like leather folder kind of dossier you open it it's written in Japanese in English and you sort of have to follow the this the mystery and it's full of Japanese folklore shinto traditions and of course local geology the home is decorated with rocks and geologic instruments it's like my father may have lived there and I had no idea that this space existed before I got there and I ended up spreading my father's ashes a couple hours away if you've been to the giant's causeway in Ireland you're familiar with the basalt columns and they was a really really

1:18:42beautiful Japanese spiritual site called cut the gishi and this was where the first emperor of Japan landed legend says and so I brought his ashes there and I'm sitting in this house and I look up and there is a framed black and white image of this rock formation and so I kind of the the mystery for me was solved by the missing geologist was my father and I had taken him home and so like the the the really bizarre part about this trip is shingu japan is actually the sister city of santa cruise and I never knew that and that's why my father was there the owner of the home he had been to santa cruise multiple times and so this all pieced together in a number of days and it just a really serendipitous special experience thank you for sharing that this that's such

1:19:43a powerful story and what type of guy are you are you the type of guy that believes in the spirits or or you just or you just simply shocked that the the way this unfolded and I mean you're describing to me faith of all these things coming together to honor and to memorialize your father is this how you normally think or were you so shocked that these things came together like the way they did yeah I was I was shocked Rick I'm pretty analytic um you know science based I I can be a little spiritual time I'm sort of my my mother would be on the spiritual side of my father is is the scientist and so I'm I'm kind of in the middle but I lean more towards analytical and and so I was I was pretty shocked but there was no other explanation that that I'd found the right place for his remains and it's a big job to spread someone's remains and I really didn't know where in Japan

1:20:44to do this and so it was a huge burden on me to find the right spot and was you got there you obviously knew this there was no more perfect place on earth than in shingo I mean nothing could have been more perfect for you for your father for for this that apt to absolutely yeah and I'm sure you've shared this story before when you share this with family members what was their response when you told them what happened here yeah it um their their skin you know starting crawling here you know on on there arms and stood up and my my my father's wife my stepmother she just also a scientist said that's creepy I would have got out of there that's too much for me um but yeah it's a really powerful story and to this day I yeah I get emotionally

1:21:46even even talking about it just because of how impactful it was and and like I said what a big burden that responsibility was that thank you again for sharing that that's really amazing and heartwarming that you're able to put your father to rest there uh just fantastic deer just another great example of really what the benefits of travel and and what happened uh for you in this experience so one of the most memorable special experiences that you've ever had in your life what's look at one of the worst least favorite places around the world yeah I think this is probably a common one um it would have to be Naru or Naru Naraaru I'm not sure how to pronounce the the new name yeah um I think that's a common one I have sort of a special experience there I spent over a week there I think that may be one of the on purpose um no um if you're familiar with

1:22:50the the famous airline that reaches that island they have travel disruptions frequently and um I arrived several days early um because the flight could not land I was on the island hopper the flight could not land in Kiribati so my choice was to wait another week in the martial islands or that's that's what they had proposed to me and my suggestion was just take me to to Naru early and put me up in a hotel and they did that so um I had three additional days so at that point I had six days and then the flight to Fiji was also canceled so I got some additional days on the back end so um I don't think I need to go back there I did really get to see the country I got to fish with locals I hunted the naughty birds with nets I photographed some of their world-class weightlifters in the gym I mean I really tried to

1:23:52find things to do there I flew my drone around I looked for beaches that weren't totally covered with coral but there is not much to do I just visited Naru earlier this year mine was a much truncated trip of two days uh and it was raining quite a bit on one of them but you had some you're describing a couple of potentially like meaningful interactions or relationships you're out on the fishing boat not with other tourists I imagine there's not 20 tourists on a charter boat you're in the uh I don't know you're in nature um trying to catch birds with a traditional net I mean we're those I mean that you must have met some people and had some experiences yeah I built some very small relationship I did and it you know it's not the I love remote islands and so I'm kind of throwing Naru under the bus but it was mostly yeah it was mostly the airline

1:24:56cancellations and how it affected the rest of my trip fortunately you know I had some some leeway there with the next island I was heading to but it was mostly that and there's not much to do there so being stuck there for seven days is uh it it it is overkill but you made the best of it yeah and I can't complain that there are you know the refugees there who are seeking a asylum that are there for years and yeah it's it it was one week and uh you're referring to in the beginning Naru just legally I don't know legal's the right term but officially changed its spelling of the name of the country the the question I don't know maybe it's even pronounced the same way Naru but maybe they just changed the spelling I'll have to look into it I think it's now pronounced now ero ero or an ERO something like that yeah it's uh I'm not actually sure now the very frustrating

1:26:00thing Jay is my one purchase in Naru was a Naru t-shirt this is either something I have to throw away or it's a real keeper that I have the old spelling it's a collectors item I'm sure it's going to be worth something yeah I might have to check out eBay and see what they're going for now we went over that story in Ethiopia where you got drugged and it could have churned out 1000 times worse obviously um so my next question is a scary moment on the road uh normally we would slot that one in I would imagine any other tough moments on the road it could be a hell scare a car accident a miking a attack anything else negative happened to you that really kind of shook your bones a little bit I've been really lucky with negative experiences but I did have a health scare I got chicken guña in Thailand and it was also just a few years ago um I went from um enjoying

1:27:09songcran the you know water gun festival uh in Bangkok with friends to being in a wheelchair a few days later quickly I was able to to travel um I ended up flying back to the states where I still have insurance and getting an infectious disease specialist and yeah I ended up having chicken guña and I was um bed ridden for a few weeks had really trouble walking it it attacks the extremities and joints um sort of like rheumatoid arthritis uh I don't recommend getting it um it you know you probably won't die from it but I still have some joint pain and sort of arthritic type feelings in my fingers so um yeah it was it was definitely a scare no no this counts just as much as the drugging timmies I know that uh a fortune I know the name at least I can't remember how do you get this chicken guña because I'm in Bangkok and now I'm gonna have to keep my eye out and make sure

1:28:13I don't get it yeah it's mostly found in more remote areas it's mosquito-borne like like malaria uh yeah so I was in the the south um the south of Thailand prior to that so I think I got it there and when I flew to Bangkok and a day later I was sick are you using travel insurance or I am insured uh typically on a worldwide policy with uh world nomads but I wanted to get care I still have insurance back in the states um yeah and so I went back there just for you know better care talking out loud so just uh a debate now my uh I mean obviously it's a scary time right you're like oh my god what's going on I gotta get this taking care of but I mean I'm thinking out loud there's a certain logic of who you know if you're at one of the better hospitals in Bangkok who is more used to treating someone with chicken guña so just walk me through the thought process like you know

1:29:16there's uh boomerangrad hospital right near my house here which is one of the top international hospitals I I'm guessing they see a lot more chicken guña than I possibly the hospital you fool back to walk me through the the thought process yeah it's a really good point I already had um I had a trip planned to Brazil with a friend and so I was going to transit the US regardless and so I went back there a bit early to try to hold that trip together and so I thought that you know I could get good care there but in retrospect you bring up a good point I didn't know that it was chicken guña yet and so I knew that I was very ill and I just kind of I had that instinct I need to go home I hear that as well too right you gotta get home where things are familiar yeah how quickly did the hospital in the US figure it out figure it out it was chicken guña did they know right away and I needed to do some testing um but yes fairly fairly quickly I

1:30:17think in a few days I had a diagnosis it is the treatment antibiotics or what did they do to help exactly yeah there's not much they can do besides antibiotics pain killers rest um there is now a vaccine but I understand that it's not great yet and it is officially released but I spoke to a doctor friend of mine and she said it's probably the risk reward is not worth it yet I don't really do commercials on the podcast but one of the sponsors of Extraordinary Travel Festival is a healthcare solution called ganky so it's built for no mads and extreme travelers so just for all those listeners out there to support or at least check out and get a quote from ganky one of the major benefits it covers you in every single country 193 there's no country exceptions

1:31:19but let's move on from that and next question what is your raison d'etre what moves you what inspires you you go to a new country is it the hiking in the landscape is it the UNESCO sites is it the amazing street food when you're getting ready to go to a country a new country a repeat what are you gearing up for I think I'm drawn to those unique landscapes and sites of course like like every other traveler but I think what makes a country most memorable is the people and what I can experience with them and it you know it may sound a little cliche but the the best memories I have could you know are involved meeting some local person and getting to do something unique or off the beaten path with them that you know you sit there and you go I shouldn't be here I should not be in this situation if I hadn't had this local connection which may have been pre-planned through something like couch surfing or you know someone you met at a bar so

1:32:24I think for me that when I'm thinking about a country I'm going to visit it's like how can I make that local connection either in advance or on the road and those are some of the best memories do you know my next question is no we're talking about people besides uh Remo and Kumi who is one of those other people's persons that you can look back and go wow that was an amazing experience brought to me by person XX to two friends well they were strangers at the time that I met in Bhutan and I have a weird I had a weird cork about me not weird but let's call it rigid that I refused when I was young to visit countries that required a a group tour or a private tour any sort of imposed tour so I never went to North Korea I never went to Iran as a US citizen and I refused

1:33:25to go to Bhutan until they were open for independent travel and a few years before they opened I had an invitation from a follower on Instagram um Saring and she had told me you know you've been traveling all these places you need to come to Bhutan and I was told her I really want to but I wanted to open up for independent travel and in in 2022 it did um and I was able to go there in in October about a week after it opened I believe it was September 23rd 2022 the same day it opened for COVID it opened for independent travel and I I walked up to the immigration with Avisa they had no idea what this visa was I think it was the first one they had seen at least this individual and it was a bit of trouble to get into the country but I did eventually by just throwing out the name of a travel provider um because they really wanted to know who was planning my tour and I couldn't say

1:34:30a couple strangers that I met on Instagram so I step outside the airport and um here are my new friends and their traditional dress and it was just an amazing amazing experience I mean I couldn't have traveled independently in Bhutan without them without the language without transport um and this is a woman who Saring who had taken time off work who's a teacher who had a young daughter who had left her with family had never really met or talked to a foreigner but offered to show me around for a week in her country and had hired one of her old students to me to be our driver and I just had the most unexpected um experience in Bhutan and I got to do it independently which I was stringent about uh but I could have never done it without these two so yeah I was just again incredible kindness from strangers beautiful country beautiful landscapes unique country yeah

1:35:34I don't think there's really an analog to Bhutan. Dear Bhutism yeah it's just magical you spent a a week there and what is the most memorable high point of the travels in Bhutan you did you saw you experienced it was not any of the sights or temples or you know shooting arrows with locals it was um having a dinner with uh Saring's family um one of which was a a monk and um getting to to be in their home eat local food um meet the whole family from you know children to grandparents and that is again one of those situations where I'm looking around and going I shouldn't be here uh this is you know this is um really really a unique experience and yeah that's kind of what I remember most about that trip I think what you're defining at some level it's surreal yeah you fly all the you're

1:36:37fine all the way around the world from the place that is most familiar with you you're in an incredibly remote isolated small kingdom in the Himalayas and you parachute into this very personal private experience of this multi-generational meal so I can imagine that's the memory that's the experience you're going to bring home with you so that's that's that's great to hear let's look at an underrated country somewhere you went to visit didn't have high hopes for but you left wanting more I just visited Angola as we touched on before and just off the top of my head I had not low expectations kind of very few expectations I knew about calendule falls and you know some tribes in the south but I had no idea the diversity of the country with you know nearly 4,000 meter mountains and the Namib desert um the Bay of Tigers ghost

1:37:39island um you know the metropolitan Lawanda the yeah the the tribes near the border with the Namibia were were fantastic really diverse beyond what I expected and I I do want to go back so that's um a recent one what's the highlight there is that the tribes in the south is a calendule of falls was it meeting Michael Runkle in his drone what's a highlight from your visit? I yeah it was it was it was probably the tribes in the south and that was unexpected I thought it was going I mean it was um you know it was they're they're meeting you because you're a tourist and they are of course compensated by by an agency but I got to actually camp um you know right outside the village and um hang out with the children you know we we sat around the fire together dance together and that you know just visiting and photographing tribes okay I've done that before I've

1:38:40you know I've slept with in the cattle camps in south Sudan um but this extra time to sort of just be with um with this group um just informally I think that set it apart sounds like a great experience you spoke about kind of your phrase I shouldn't even be here or what am I even doing here um let's look at that from the perspective of the most remote place you've been to or the place where you feel like wow I am so cut off from the world I know I think it might be in the Solomon Islands um when I was close I was north of the the Gizo Island chain before Bogonville and I was staying uh it was a small homestay and I was doing some diving um yeah just north of the new the New George Islands really just pristine nature tiny quiet villages no tourists dug out can use

1:39:41the World War II history um is not too far away and it just it felt genuinely remote this is a quick reminder you will not hear the entire conversation with Jay and another reminder join us in October in Bangkok for the ETF use code Bangkok to save on your ticket now back to the remainder of my conversation with Jay Moore and again I like some proletims it could be the best it could be the worst it could be a Michelin restaurant it could be a dollar 50 street food uh street stall food meal give me a great story or awful story about eating something around this big world of ours this is uh it's it's not extremely exotic but I will go back to my youth and I can't get enough of the the Tijuana street tacos just absolutely some some of my favorite tacos in the world and

1:40:41I've been eating them now for cheese about 30 years what when when you're eating the tacos in Tijuana is there a go-to place do you have a a small restaurant or stall that you've been able to go back to repeatedly um well not only Tijuana but there's um there's a town uh portland o'uevo in that's famous for lobster and the tacos there are are are also incredible um I believe that the place might have been uh um tacos el frank I believe that was was the name of the Tijuana um the the stall that we used to go to but uh don't don't quote me it's been a while well I might have to check it out I'm excited I'm doing my first visit to that region of Mexico I don't know if you've heard of this I'm attending microcon 27 in San Diego you know what that one is I do not know no inform me are you familiar with the Sultan of slow jama stan

1:41:46no well okay well is that the you better fill me in uh the Sultan is another renowned member of our community randie Williams who has been to all 193 countries but after completion he started his own micro nation 90 minutes outside of San Diego so this is another culture of the travel world micro nations of course famous places like principality of cland and this community has their own show we say ETF so in the summer of 2027 the Sultan is hosting I think 150 people who are part of the micro nation community I'll be going and I'm excited to say the Sultan will be bringing us to Mexico for the day so I might have to find some of these tacos that you're referring to awesome I will yeah I'll send you a link and I have heard of this community but I did not know uh

1:42:48the the leader of it so you'll you'll also be them at ETF and he's a fantastic person and I believe for those people listening there's a couple tickets left but it's nearly sold out and I've been to microcon a couple years ago it's a fascinating group of people now you've kind of shared your love of the outdoors starting as a kid what's been one of those really tough physical feats of hiking or trekking or skiing that you've done around the world that was you you found really challenging you know I haven't done some of the really extreme extreme adventures like you know rowing the Atlantic or you know anything completely completely hardcore but I think I had a a sprained MCL and I did some some really big hikes including a half dome in Yosemite and kind of had to pull myself

1:43:56completely up the cables at the end because I didn't really have use of one leg so while it wasn't the the the most extreme hike I've done it was one of the hardest because of my uh my injury again that that counts 100% to me if you're you're missing the complete operation of your your leg so well done most brutal or uncomfortable ride it could be the flight that never ends it could be the bush taxi that there's 27 people in there uh the motorbike ride that's in the complete rain what what something that you look back maybe left now but at the moment was pretty darn painful yeah I touched on some of the public transport in South America and I remember some particularly grueling bus rides in Bolivia I think Santa Cruz La Paz and keep in mind this was nearly 15 years ago

1:44:59was about 20 hours from La Paz to the Salt Flats Uyuni was shorter but a much worse road and I think the bus had recently been robbed so there was not um great night sleep on uh on that route and so yeah I'd have to say the Bolivian buses now I will uh make sure I stay away I was uh I ended up flying from La Paz to Uyuni so that that part is a lot easier I think it was an hour flight give or take looking back 166 countries toughest most challenging visa I've been pretty lucky on visa so far and I have some of the harder ones left but I had a difficult one this year and primarily because of the relationship with the US I attempted to get uh two gobbanees visas at embassies actually friends even helped me with my second passport I had visas started in Madrid and Lawanda only to be

1:46:05cancelled in the passport and then eventually with the help of a friend was able to sweet talk um the Lawanda embassy into giving me the Gabon visa I still wasn't sure if it would be accepted on arrival because technically Americans are banned um I think as of late 2005 or 25 so yeah I did make it in that was actually the easiest part of the process but getting the visa was a little tough hmm I wasn't I didn't hear that Gabon had put the US on the list I mean I was aware of a couple of others but didn't know Gabon had joined the group yeah it doesn't seem to be significantly impact I mean I've heard of people who aren't going because of it but I was able to get in and I don't think they're really applying this restriction in practice guiding made it what was it worth it so what what was what did you do in Gabon actually if I didn't say Nauru Gabon

1:47:09would be one of one of my least favorite I mean we we did some thing we didn't just hang out in Lieberville and go to Che Batti we we went we took the train overnight to a Lopez park and we did some safaris there um and stayed at the the National Park along the river and that was okay I mean there was just there wasn't a lot to do um the wildlife was completely absent from the trip we'd met some some birders there who had barely seen anything also so I yeah I can't recommend Gabon for wildlife it wasn't the worst place but it was it was not a not one of my best experiences not rushing back what counts as visiting a country I think you need to do something cultural you need to do something in the country of um I'm having an experience and you know you don't

1:48:12need to sleep overnight I don't think that that is really relevant for some of the micro nations even though you know I have slept in the majority of them um so yeah I think you you need to do something have an experience talk to some locals um don't just kind of step over the line or get your passport stamp that might be the technical um uh means for a visit by some you know some groups but um for me I think you really need to do something while you're there we spoke about collecting as a kid and you said you didn't really collect anything but you were a big fan of your your globe um after all these years have you done a collection of any sort do you have any mementos you you shared you had that awesome carbon copy of your around the world ticket from oh eight what's going on in that area yeah the the um void of having a home has impacted that somewhat but I used to collect paintings local artwork that I could easily roll up and I do have some really nice

1:49:16framed pieces um and my uh my mother has the uh the benefit of storing those right now um but for for now I am mostly collecting currency so I'm I'm trying to collect bills and even old you know bills from say zaire or um you know countries that have had name changes uh over the years so yeah mainly currency uh and there I was uh well that doesn't work I was going to make a joke about naru that you need to go back but but since they use uh aud uh it doesn't it doesn't quite work well we've had a pretty fascinating conversation some great stories some great anecdotes um I would imagine I always like to use the benchmark of your high school reunion and I think a lot of people would be god jave you've lived this amazing life you've seen so much you've done so much my dream is to travel one day when I retire now what is the flip

1:50:19side what is the sacrifice now you're looking back and you're saying well there's always a tradeoff I've got to go to kong duolifal so it gets to do that very few people I have gotten to spend time in aara sababa as a local but what is the sacrifices the tradeoffs when it comes to family and friends and health and relationships yeah I think it's it's for me it's mostly friends and family to some degree relationships and health I think um I have the opportunity because of my flexibility to to travel back to the states I do go twice I spend one month in the summer one month in the winter but it's it's not enough time with with family and friends I'm missing you know birthdays and you know graduations on occasion and special events so I think it's it's mostly that time with family and and then yeah the the relationships and health on the road I mean what I

1:51:21eat is not ideal so yeah there's there are huge tradeoffs um I'm gonna go out on a limb here I'm guessing if you're spending all your time in California what you probably would not get chicken ginya no that would be safe to say looking back you have years of travel coming up you still chasing one ninety three you got travel coming but looking back if you had a little uh time machine anything you would have done differently you would have told your younger self when you were starting out on this path hey I touched on it briefly but I would be less rigid and less restrictive with my goal to travel independently everywhere and that led me to not visit North Korea Iran and those countries are difficult to go to yeah um especially for Americans so yeah I I I think there was a learning experience there I can be a bit stubborn and so I got a

1:52:22really look back at that and learn from it you you shared with us how you took the time to learn some Spanish what is your facilities for language are you speaking any others are you learning any others besides a tiny bit of Japanese because of the time there in the family and Spanish no and that is probably one of my my weakest points as a traveler I'm gonna rephrase the previous question if you're gonna do it all over would you have done anything different specifically in regard to languages yeah I would have done study abroad as a university student in a Spanish speaking country um without a doubt that would that is something that I I would do differently and regret not being um I guess mature enough to take that route we spoke about in essence your late arrival to the extreme travel community thanks to mad travelers and I'm the minor assist to

1:53:28counting countries podcast um but regardless before that you're obviously consuming travel media your meeting travelers or it might be someone of more recent but do you have a role model for travel someone who inspires you motivates you it could be someone you know in real life it could be simply a book that you read ages ago or a TV show who is inspiring and motivating you as you travel abroad yeah I think I have to look back to where I started and at the same time or slightly before Matt Keppness he started nomadic mat his blog in 2008 and I was doing that first round the world trip then and I really admired the way he slow traveled and traveled on a budget and you know focused on local experiences and I also enjoyed later in life his his book 10 years in nomad

1:54:32so I really I've never met Matt but yeah I really appreciated his blog at a time there wasn't a lot of people working remote and mostly they were travel bloggers there was also Johnny Ward with um he was probably the first person that I was familiar with who was pursuing 193 and his blog I think it was one step forward believe that that was really a helpful guide as well don't let's give out some shout outs uh Johnny Ward of 193 or he's been on the podcast he will also be at the ETF he is screening his documentary as he and his mother his mother was Parkinson's as they summit Mount Fuji in Japan a pretty inspiring film and another shout out to Matt better known as nomadic mat who I would qualify as kind of the one of the original OGs of travel blogging so really well known successful individual in that space he will not be coming to you

1:55:40maybe maybe next year maybe next time uh Matt a few lessons you are invited who is a couple of your travel buddies in the community yeah I'm I I uh I met Sun Joao who I'm going to see in uh in a couple days here in Comarose um a couple other guys um I guess we we'll be Zhao um probably travel with him most which is less thing bragg uh Zhao Gabriel he's from bragg and ten nims who you may know is a great photographer from Los Angeles um another uh um guy Colin Miller whose he's UK and US um living in Manchester and they're all kind of like we talked about they're in the similar country count as me and and working on some similar countries so it works out well

1:56:41what aspect of your travel career like let's pretend we're looking at a resume what are you most proud of when you look at that travel career of yours I think that the yeah that I've been able to to one I guess build the the lifestyle where I can have these experiences and then two in my mind do them the right way with uh a focus on you know local connections and um the the couch surfing in my my early days and and now still trying to um to connect with people where I'm traveling and so I I think it's building the lifestyle and then taking advantage of it and getting the most out of um the most out of travel give us your perspective or update on coach surfing I know they made a pretty big change to the platform I think at some level charging people money I understood uh this was a uh it kind of a negative impact on the platform are you still using it

1:57:43today is it any good is there any value what's your take on couch surfing in 2026 yeah I think that that plan um to start charging was uh really detrimental to the growth of the community it wasn't that people were so against paying for it but it was just it's not what the community's about and they also went they didn't go public they became a B-Corp or something in between a non-profit and a for-profit I'm not really sure but there was some um pushback there and then um I think the membership has just declined and so I last used it in Pakistan and I had a really great experience it was you know it's been a while it's been several years so I'm not that active there but I have mostly used it recently to just connect with both with other travelers there's a nice function where you can kind of meet up with people who are also traveling in the same region post your trip details and then of course um just to meet up with a local you know have a cup of tea or have a meal

1:58:49together that's really what I appreciate these days I kind of require a bit more comfort and predictability in my accommodation now but um I'm still using it here and there to um to make connections I think you said when discussing most proud you've been able to design your life in such a way to make this all come to fruition and you've mentioned you're an entrepreneur you're running a business kind of touch on the work aspect of what you're doing specifically today and how you've made this happen currently today I am managing a number of rental properties back in the states I also recently bought property in a paraguay so mostly I am funding my travels through through rental property income and additionally I have a small travel business called trip coaching I build custom itineraries mostly for people who are not traveling like us these are a few high

1:59:55net worth Bay Area families that I plan their travels for so I'm sort of a travel concierge for them and that's more of a hobby but I really enjoy it it's keep gets me back in my route and itinerary planning and you know some some travel hacking with the points and miles so yeah I'm doing doing both of both of those active businesses currently. Jay 27 is that the correct math you have 27 UN member countries left what's the plan what's the strategy what's the goal what's going on yeah I will be visiting a few new UN countries shortly here in in Comoros and Madagascar but looking forward I have the problem of this a hell so I'm addressing that with the Turkish citizenship through investment so I'm currently buying property in Istanbul to obtain the Turkish passport I did a lot of research there over the last few years

2:00:59and determined that that was the best route for me if anyone is in that situation also as an American or just looking for a second passport I'm happy to discuss all my findings I did a lot of research and that was the the best plan for me so I hope to have that passport in the next year or so and that will that will get me into the countries that the US has restricted from with the exception of North Korea which I think most people are waiting on and I believe there's a new restriction even for dual passport holders of the US so we'll see about that one but yeah I hope to finish long story short in the next couple years with UN countries but I am also working on my own list of destinations and experiences so I'm trying to mix those in you are investing in property in Turkey to get a second passport now when you are sitting having a coffee at ETF for at the bar

2:02:02sharing a drink this might seem at some level common-sensical it might seem that the person you're conversing with will have some like genuine interest in conversation in questions and be asking for advice but let's go back to that benchmark of your high school graduation class and they might say you're crazy you're spending X-100 grand in Turkey to get a second passport to go to Molly what what think again I'm with you I hear you right we you need to develop and create a solution for a challenge you have an obstacle but would you ever imagine when you were finishing up your masters in business or the second masters in education that you would be discussing in 2026 God I really got to start investing in Turkey to get that second passport so I can go visit Niger

2:03:09you're looking at the mirror explain what you're doing today and how this makes sense yeah that would that would be a tough conversation with my younger self but when when you dig into it and I would explain this to someone that that particular passport is strong and people get if you aren't even chasing 193 just as a sort of geopolitical hedge and balance to having a somewhat unpopular western passport like the US so I see Turkey is having different friends and enemies than then an American passport an American would have so I think it could make sense even if you weren't you know trying to get into Molly but it's it's definitely a small subset of people that are are looking for multiple passports and residencies but I might be doing that even if I wasn't chasing 193 so very good I that's a very common sense of ecological answer

2:04:13and good luck on getting that second passport. Jay you also just mentioned another list of places to visit other experiences so we know you are not going to quote unquote retire from travel once you hit UN 193 you are addicted it's in your DNA tell us about this second list what's it all about what's on there how did you create it yeah I created that list by looking at what else was out there particularly the UN plus list and the TCC list and I looked at those specific destinations and did research and a lot of them I want to go to and so I I use that to kind of start my list and then it also has specific experiences things that many travelers have done that I haven't experienced for you know whatever reason I haven't seen the northern lights properly I've never seen a polar bear in the wild or a tiger in the wild and so those experiences are also on my

2:05:18destination list so it's sort of incorporating these existing lists with experiences that I want to have that that aren't destinations but will bring me to destinations on that list anyways. Let's do two quick examples number one give us one of those destinations itself that is on that list that you're excited to visit one day. Greenland yeah I mean I it's of course I hate to I hate to interject Greenland will shortly be part of the sovereign United States so it doesn't think out. Well let's hope not. Okay so Greenland would attract you about Greenland. Well I I love remote island communities it living in harsh environments and you doesn't get get much better than that I recently was in the Falcon Islands and it's you know on the other other side of the world but that sort of community where you've got people living

2:06:23there for you know hundreds or thousands of years if you're talking about the native native people and surviving in those climates and I just find it really really fascinating and I want to see these places yeah they're on my on my big list. Agreed those are some places I want to go to the Falcon Islands as well. Now you also mentioned experiences poor bear northern lights you can't use those examples provide one more experiential example. This may sound sort of silly and it's it's also in the same region but I want to stay in in one of those ice hotels that they that they build in Sweden every year it's it's a novelty thing but it's on my list and yeah I'm going to do it just just because I want to. So you should I'm a I'm a big proponent of you getting a good night's sleep in the ice hotel. I want to thank you thank you so much for

2:07:27joining me today it was really a great fantastic conversation I'm looking forward to meeting you in just a couple of weeks in Bangkok at ETF and before we sign off Jay how can people follow along on your travels. Yeah I think the the best way to connect with me would be through IG and it's at world traveler the last three is an E so world travel three are. Well we'll have a link in the show notes for that everybody say hi to Jay when you see him at ETF and he will give you personalized advice on how to get that Turkish passport Jay thanks again so much for joining us. Thanks Rick I appreciate it take care. He said it all thank you Jay for joining me good luck on finishing 193 and then your extended new list after that as well I look forward to meeting you in person in October guys let's be honest you've heard me speaking about ETF since early September

2:08:35over a year ago and now it's crunch time you have to make your choice are you coming or not over 225 people are coming use code bank log to save a hundred dollars on your ticket and last years or two years ago then was sold out over subscribed to many people if you want to meet the community if you want to network meet amazing travelers who share the same passion as you this is the platform this is the place to meet them this is the place to meet future friends and travel fellow travelers the event back bank October 22 to 25 four days of content one day more than the previous event we're screening films we have keynotes and breakouts and panels networking groups we have 40 speakers over four days this is an unbelievable great value we have amazing travelers

2:09:38we're taking to the stage I'm not going to even bother to touch on them because there's too many take a look at the website and third reason you should be coming whether you do it on your own or vis-a-vis with ETF this is one of the best regions in the world you haven't been everywhere maybe you're missing a country have you been to Burma or Bangladesh maybe you're missing some UNESCO World Heritage sites maybe you're missing some regions for MTP no madmenia maybe it's your first time here nonetheless Bangkok is an amazing gateway to build a trip before after or just spend time exploring Thailand it offers so much so again this event is once every two years don't miss out come join us use code Bangkok October 22 to 25 any questions please reach out to me keep on counting countries bye for now you have been listening to counting countries the only

2:10:45podcast to bring you the stories from the dedicated few who've spent their lives on the singular quest of traveling to every country in the world our theme music is Demeter's Dance written performed and provided by Moondi get their entire discography at moondiworld.com M-U-N-D-I world.com and keep up with Rick and his own personal travel quests at globalgas.com