Is "Race Realism" Simply Racism? ╏Nathan Cofnas Under Fire

0:00Good evening and welcome to Live From The Table. Before we start the interview I have to tell you that Ariel is going to be late today. I don't know if she's coming. I have some sad news for all you live from Table Fans Dan Natterman has equipped the podcast. He sent me an email. He basically said I quit. He didn't call me. He didn't sit down with me for coffee. He just had enough. So, no, Dan, I was talking about. If you want to back, maybe you should email them. A drive gone. We have with us today Nathan Coughness is an academic who works in the philosophy of biology. His work has focused on controversial questions surrounding evolution, race, and intelligence, and academic freedom. In 2026 he became the subject of significant public attention following his dispute involving

1:03former Cambridge professor Jason Ardai. Ardai, I never had to say is it Ardai? Jason Ardai, which led to Ardai being fired and then sadly he committed suicide. Welcome Nathan Coughness. Thank you very much. I hope your co-host didn't quit in protest because of me. Oh no, he would have held on for another week. By the way, usually our guests have curated bookshelves behind them with all sorts of highfalutin titles that they probably never read. And you have empty bookshelves. Is that because you had to clear them all out before the public got to see what you're reading? Or is that just you just moved in there or something? I most of my books are on Kindle. I move from country to country so it's not really practical to have several suitcases worth of books. I had seen one person comment that this is a bad metaphor to have in the background as if

2:08this represents my mind. I don't know how you have to take my word for it. I have read books before. You sound like it. By the way, I read everything on Kindle as well and I make sure that my kids read as much as they can. Everything on Kindle because I like that they can touch the word and get the meaning of it, which is, I know you could look it up, but most people don't. And then of course afterwards it creates a list of every word that you've looked up. So if you want to improve vocabulary, I fantasize that my kids will do this. But I don't know if they will. Anyway, so what I call you, Mr. Kaufmanus, Nathan. Nathan, Nathan is fine. All right. Nathan, I thought that I wanted to interview you about the Jason Ardith thing, but I think that's all been gone over and I don't know if we'll have anything new to say about that. Then I want to interview more about this race realism thing.

3:13I'm a big fan of genetics. I wrote a paper in college for my senior year. The professor was named as Jake Cantor. It was all about me saying that, listen, everything's genetic and even morality is genetic. And I remember my argument being like, well, why would we have a conscience? Why would we have the ability to feel guilty? It has to be naturally selected for. And my clever example then was, and look at people who are sociopaths who are characterized by the inability to feel guilt. And obviously you couldn't run a cooperative society with sociopaths. So this must be encoded and everything must come from there. And I got a very bad grade on that paper. And that's before people were even thinking that way really. And then I heard an interview with you where you said that when you were applying to college, you were so taken by this issue that you brought it up to every interviewer. And the other reason. That's right. I brought it up in my interviews at both Duke and Harvard.

4:18Incidentally, the interviewer for Duke was very impressed by that. And he said that he was giving me the highest recommendation that he was giving me the highest score that he was allowed to give on the recommendation. Although I didn't end up getting in there. I did get in to Columbia, which you were. You got in to Columbia where they had nowhere to view. That's right. Harvard was a hard no. But having said that, now let me, maybe it was too cheerful here. Having said that, I was really taken aback by your writings and the things that you said, I think that, by the way, I'm going to give you a chance to say everything that you want. I saw an interview with you with some British guy and he kept cutting you off. And he seemed to be cutting you off exactly when he could kind of sense the point you were going to make and didn't want to let you get it out. That kind of thing. You're going to have none of that from me.

5:19Was that the notorious Nick Ferrari interview? Were he asked me a question and then would interrupt as soon as I started? I didn't see that. I'm sure you're not like that. But I am going to challenge you with vigor because I feel like you're a white nationalist and you can disobey me and that you speak in code to people who understand what you're saying without spelling it out. And I selected a lot of quotes from your kind of manifesto, a guide further who had a Terry revolution. I want to go through them with you. And although there are some disclaimers there, I didn't put the disclaimers when I say disclaimers. I mean, you said some things that mitigate the harshness of certain things that you said. So in spirit of fairness, let me read a few of these mitigating statements into the record. Number one, I leave open the possibility that a less intelligent person can be in some respect

6:22superior or that they can have more all things considered worth. Number two, successful leaders will have to make a greater effort to distinguish themselves from thugs and crackpots, even if in the short run this alienates some of their would-be followers. Number three, the fact that race and race differences are real does not tell us what our ultimate values should be or what kind of society we should strive for within the limits of what is possible. And anyone can go and read them. I didn't include them because I figured you will say them on your own, but I don't want people to think that they're not in there, but I felt like they were in some way pro forma. I have to introduce it before we begin. I certainly don't, I'm not a white nationalist. That's not my thing at all. And in the guide, a guide for the red deterrent revolution, I specifically say that I quote Nietzsche actually who said that

7:26feels no need to isolate him. So sequester himself from the other races and you know, we're all mixed and that doesn't make sense to him. Now I think in principle any kind of nationalism, black nationalism, Jewish nationalism, German nationalism, in principle and even white nationalism, could be a way of having an identity and identifying with the group. It's just an empirical observation, which I say in the guide, that we've seen over and over again that any attempt to form communities on the basis of white identity has expressed itself primarily as negativity toward other races or perceived enemies within the right white race. So that's not my thing at all.

8:26And I'm not particularly popular among white nationalists. So okay, an important point for me. Yeah, and you know what? You seem perfectly sincere almost sounds glib, but you're like, you seem to be telling the truth when you say that. So then you will explain to me the difference between the white nationalist opinion and the things that I'm focusing in on that you've said and explained the nuance differences. Okay. So you've written this document a guide for the hereditary revolution and you think that this issue of acknowledging differences in average IQs races is key to essentially reorganizing society to reach a new equilibrium. I think that's the nurse. And now I'm going to use, I'm not going to talk as much for the whole interview, but there's a lot that I want to get out there just to set up. So you know where I'm coming from, right?

9:29You know, the what is the transit of property equals B, if A equals B and B equals C, then A equals C, right? So I am going to draw some inferences about what it is that I think you'll believe is true and you can you tell me if you're not. So you believe that on the whole black people have a lower IQ than white people, but I believe you are and you believe that they will, because of that, if if it were treated in a purely meritocratic way, I didn't say this, they would disappear from cognitively demanding jobs like professors, scientists, subhellant lawyers, judges, neuroscientists, things like that. Further, you say that, and on this, I'm extrapolating from your conversation with Charles Murray, where you said that even people of average intelligence, I think you meant 100 IQ there are unable to do sophisticated moral reasoning. But before I want to make one more

10:31point about intelligence and this connection to moral goodness, and there are certain, there's a certain level of moral understanding, which is simply unattainable for somebody with an average or a little below average IQ. So I kind of figured, look, let's say 105 is necessary by your estimation of the numbers, that would mean something like 90% of black people are incapable of sophisticated reasoning. You believe that people of lower intelligence have generally lower human worth, this is your phrase, and that would mean that on average black people have less human worth than other people. I say there is obviously a connection between intelligence and human worth. Everything that we value about human beings is their ability to plan, to have an identity,

11:38to understand ideas, all of it is related to intelligence. More is better. You agree that if you knew nothing else other than person A has an IQ of 80, B has an IQ of 120, and both of them are drowning, you would go for the, you would save the 120 over the 80 because of their instrumental value. Even there I wouldn't do it. So let's start there. These are very horrifying things to put out there if that's what's believed. To me, to my opinion, go ahead. Okay, so there are difficult topics to deal with, and I think it's possible to take ideas which

12:42are worthy of discussion and combine them and manipulate them in a way that makes them far more inflammatory than they have to be. Now with respect to, I just want to say this, I just want to say, these are all things that you talk about. In other words, I'm not blaming you. These are all legitimate questions. I'm not criticizing you. I'm just saying that, I mean, you're a thorough thinker, and I know you make connections. I watched you know, I know that what I'm saying here, these are not the first time you've had these thoughts. I'm on record as saying that not everything that's true needs to be loudly proclaimed if all it does is conduce to bad feelings for no benefit. Okay, so take those ideas one by one. Now about achieving a new equilibrium.

13:53What is the current equilibrium? The current equilibrium is, everybody says that all people are born on average the same. All groups are on average the same. Therefore disparities among groups must be the result of environmental factors because we've ruled out genes. It can't be genes. So therefore it's the environment and the most obvious environmental explanation for lower performance among historically persecuted groups is past or present racism. That's the current equilibrium. Now that leads to blaming people in the higher performing group, particularly whites who are actually not necessarily not the highest performing group, but they're outperformed by Indians, by Asians, Iranian immigrants, Jews. But anyway, that's the current equilibrium. Is blaming white people for disparities not favorable to whites that are favorable to

14:58whites? Is it that binary? Because it doesn't like the nation of Islam, have an opinion that's different than that. Blaming, saying that black people need to study harder and better culture. They don't believe, they have their own cultural theory of why they're people are doing worse in certain ways. It doesn't, so that's not the only other explanation. Whether or not that's true about the nation of Islam, that's a fringe belief. I'm talking about the equilibrium that exists within institutions in the United States and most of the rest of the Western world. I don't want to interrupt you and also want to have a conversation because it's Zoom, it's harder. But go ahead. At universities in Hollywood, basically any kind of elite institution, they're not run by the nation of Islam. The assumption is all groups are born exactly the same.

16:00On average, disparities, favoring whites, vis-a-vis blacks or other groups are the result of white racism. So anyway, this is... That is one aspect, but first of all, people have a tremendous ability for cognitive dissonance. Not everybody forces themselves to come back to conclusion, but I think that there are a lot of people out there and say, there could be some differences, but look at these schools and look at the way homework is not valued and look at the stories we hear about how crappy the teachers are and there's so much we need to correct right in front of our eyes before we should ever even need to come to grappling with that later question. We know, regardless of what it is that confidence is saying, we're not doing right by tremendous numbers of people in this country. So let's just focus our attention. I mean, for instance, tutoring has some effects.

17:02If you have a kid that you know is not a... I mean, every parent sees that their kids have genetic abilities, right? So if you have the less intelligent kid, you get them a tutor. You don't say, what the hell? Nothing you can do about that kid. And tutors have some results. Maybe not as much as a parent wishes they would have. Similarly, SAT, I was doing some reading about that today, SAT prep courses. Like for half of them, they don't help. But some people, they help significantly. And some people, they help an enormous amount, right? So you don't need to get into the genetics of the kid who did bad as an honest SATs. You do the best you can by him. And once you've exhausted everything, like truly exhausted everything. And by the way, humans can rationalize that for a long time, whether they actually have or haven't exhausted everything. Parents do that all the time, right? Then you can start worrying about your thing. But then beyond your thing, then why we have to rearrange the country, but go ahead. You have a lot to respond to. Well, I'll just postulate for now

18:07that many people in the Western world, including America, care very deeply about racial disparities and they trace them back to injustice committed by white people, including systemic racism. This is like a big thing. This is a big part of our culture. This is what woke is and is. Woke is and is. Well, I believe some of that to it. I'm not woke. But yes, I believe some of that too. Go ahead. Well, okay. Now, one way that we correct this alleged injustices through affirmative action. So that means people from less well-represented groups in certain domains are given extra points when it comes to college applications and that sort of thing. On 2013, Harvard conducted

19:08an internal study of its admissions process and they determined that if admissions were based only on grades and test scores, the undergraduate population would be 0.7 percent black. At the time, it was 12.5 percent. Now, it's 14 percent. So the vast majority of black undergrad at Harvard, according to Harvard, would not have been admitted if it were a pure merit ocarcy selecting people in the basis of academic merit. Harvard like affirmative action. This kind of affirmative action exists across the board for admissions and hiring in elite cognitively demanding professions. That's just how it is. That passage that you quoted

20:10was addressing mainstream conservatives who say that the solution to the race issue is a colorblind meritocracy. So this is what people like Christopher Rufo will say or the daily wire people will say. We just need a colorblind meritocracy, treat everyone as individuals and then there's no more problem. So I was saying that is not going to work because if we actually had a colorblind meritocracy, black representation would fall to a degree that very few people understand. The 15 point, approximately 15 point IQ gap between white Americans and African Americans has enormous implications when you're drawing from IQ 120, 130, 140. That range, the ratio of white Asian to black does not look at like the general population.

21:18Just the fact that black representation becomes very low and that's something that any honest discussion has to deal with. Two things. First of all, this bleak statistic of the number of people that would be accepted at Harvard just based on their objective measures. That conversation painful as it is. That's the kind of conversation you might hear Glenn Lowry having a John McWhorter or Coleman Hughes. They don't feel the need to embrace genetic explanations for them to talk about that and actually want to eliminate affirmative action. Similarly, this is his name, Shelby Steele. From the other end, this is going back to a long time. I don't know if he's still out there talking about it. He wrote a book where he was saying that he's against affirmative action because he wanted to eliminate the stigma that a black graduate from

22:19Harvard would have. When people kind of know the reality, then you have this degree from Harvard Law School that's saying people say, yeah, well, yeah, that's fine if you're a white guy, but what does that degree really mean in your hands? He wants that eliminated. None of that requires this embrace of race realism. Affirmative action is, you know, you can make the arguments unfair. And especially when they went off the deep end on it where they didn't just say, you know, we have a history of racism and slavery. Jim Crowe, so let's limit, let's make sure we have five or 10% of the students to be black at all times. They said, we're also going to limit how many Asians come in. We're going to slice and dice the entire human race so that even if the population of Asians in the country triples, we're still going to have the same number of Asians at Harvard every year. And this becomes untenable. And I think that's really what broke. That's what made the steam kettle boil. And it was the Asian thing. But let me

23:23just, okay, so let me just, that's my answer, but this is the thing. First of all, as to the first list I gave, I feel like your audience connects these dots on their own. But let me read from your manifestos I've called it your paper because there's much more there. And this is what I don't understand. So where should I start here? Array is like an extended family, although you'll probably be disappointed if you're, if you expect your racial brethren to treat you that way. And it's natural to care about the fate of your people. Our physical and psychological nature reflects our racial heritage. And for partly biological reasons, we may feel a connection to our cultural traditions. And then you say, this is what got me. Those who truly value diversity should favor the preservation of racial distinctions. There must be some barriers set up between the races. Barriers set up between the races in order for each one to express its own unique genius. What did you mean by that? So there's a lot of talk about how great diversity is. And in fact,

24:29I, to some extent, agree with that. If you value diversity, if you value anything, then you must value the conditions that are necessary for the valuable thing to continue to exist. If, when I put it abstractly, I mean, I surely, that's a reasonable thing to say. No, I know. Maybe I'm just not getting it. So it, when I say abstractly, if you value X, then to that extent, you value the conditions that are necessary for X to continue to exist. Just in the abstract, is that abstract statement a reasonable idea? I don't, I don't think so. I, I, I, I don't think that I don't think we need barriers between the races. I'm saying in the abstract, okay, you can say that I'm just applying it. I would need to fill in the, I would need to fill in the details of that. Yeah, okay. I'm going to grant it. Go ahead. But a reasonable intuition to have that valuing X means valuing means desiring for X to continue. And therefore, whatever conditions now, but there,

25:33there may be reasons. Yeah, I mean, like if you value coffee powder and you value hot water, you don't put the coffee powder in the hot water. I like, I get it at that extreme. I don't think it's a trick question. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not the trick question, right? Good. So, okay, so if it's good that there are different kinds of people that we have Jews and Asians and, and Africans and people have different cultures, different ways of doing things. Now, I claim that this, the different ways of doing things are partly rooted in genetic, average genetic differences. If you think now, not all diversity is good, there's some diversity, that's bad and that that's ideally we could, you know, correct. I think it would be nice to raise everybody's average IQ to a high level. So it's not good that some people have lower general intelligence, but there are differences in style, in personality, and interest, which,

26:36to some extent, have our influence by genetics. I think that's desirable and gives rise to the diversity of cultural traditions and cultural products. So, to the extent that I find that valuable, I think that we should preserve that diversity. Now, what does barriers mean? Barriers doesn't mean that we're not allowed to talk to each other that we sequester ourselves. I mean, I think that a model for the kinds of barriers that I'm talking about, you know, it's like language. Just the fact that Chinese is a very difficult language to learn and for them, Western languages are difficult to learn. And therefore, we don't all just mix and start speaking Esperanto and become, you know, brown. Okay, but you know, you could have said we should, we should not be so quick to try to tear down the barriers if we want to keep diversity,

27:41you know, which is, you know, Americans have always favored a melting pot and we've always figured that we were never going to overcome the diversity. We just kind of blur it a little bit, but and from the blurring we get new outcomes and new things, but you said we need to set up barriers between the races for each one. And I'll tell you what I took from it, which was the worst possible interpretation. I took from it that because you said each to express its own unique genius. And I thought, well, if you think that the Jews are super smart and the blacks are super musical and it, and you know, maybe what he's saying here is that we shouldn't be so quick to want to see the human race regress to the mean. So they have a lower frequency of all these individual geniuses and rather just have some, you know, mix between them all, which then suffocates or suppresses the frequency of these unique geniuses. Because after all, if all the

28:42Ashkenazi Jews completely start marrying black people by your way of thinking, we're going to have a lot less of these high IQ physicists out there, right? So that's how I interpreted what you wrote. In the traditional sense of like a spiritual energy that that's so what barrier we set up, what barrier do we set up? So I mean, I'm pushing back against a traditional liberal ideal of we all become one. We're all the same. Esperanto is not really a thing now, but that used to be a very big, an aspiration for many liberals that we're all going to speak the same language. There will be no barriers. There will be no more diversity. I think that the point is if I was spell out the implications, people are used to these slogans about

29:49like any kind of barriers are bad and you know, we're all the human race like, but if you actually spell out what people are the values that people are actually committed to, I think there's a contradiction in saying that you value diversity, but you don't want any no barriers whatsoever. A barrier doesn't mean to force. You're forcing people to do something. It just means naturally there are cultural cultural barriers. You can't just become a Jew and first anybody in the world can become a Jew. You can become a Jew, but it's hard. There are barriers set up. It's very explicit. If you want to become a Jew, the rabbi will tell you, no, you don't. Okay, but one, now Jews have in fact acquired racial diversity after having left

30:50Israel living in different parts of the world. There were converts which over the last 2000 years, which has caused Jews in different parts of the world to become to some extent racially diverse, although they're still a genetic continuity from the ancient population. But one could look at your date and everything and say, well, maybe the best thing for us to do is all to intermarry as much as we can. So we bring down, you know, some people are just not going to, but bring down as much as we can, this problem. Right? If you were in fewer Jews, you're pure blacks, you're pure Asians, where all become the means become closer and closer, maybe to the point where, and I mean, I know that you don't have to be a genius to think of it in that direction. But okay, but so listen. Sure, sure. I'm saying that those are the person who said that is a thing that people say. Yeah, I'm saying that it's not something you say, but it's not something you say. So it's not something I say. I say, if you value diversity, like I do, then then you wouldn't want that. So

31:56okay, well, let me go. Somebody could say that they do want that. And then that's just a fundamental disagreement. Let's continue. I hope you won't have to leave because I have a lot here. And I, you know, I'm, I've seen you do like three hour podcasts. So I hope you'll spare me some, that's some extra time here because this is, this is very important stuff. So you write virtually every genuine scholar of race is one or at most two degrees of separation removed from deranged crackpots and neo-nazis, which makes it difficult for intellectual responsible outsiders to know whom to listen to. With the exception of Aporia, a magazine, and podcast that was founded a couple years ago, race-realist institutions tend to be either officially anti-Semitic. And this anti-Semitism has really been where you've fallen out with a, what's this guy Kevin McDonald or whatever, or closely associated with anti-Semites. And then you're right, American Renaissance. Now that's Jared Taylor's organization is not anti-Semitic.

32:57And it is an important center for high quality discussions of race. Many J-Cures, that's Jewish questioners. Now that's already, when you say J-Cures, this betrays a certain familiar aridity with the, with the alt-right. Many J-Cures attend and speak at his conferences. Most normal people have no interest in sorting through this mess. Okay, now I just want to introduce Jared Taylor. He may not be an anti-Semite, but he is clearly a racist, right? I'll just read, this is from this article, Africa in our midst that he wrote after Katrina, that apparently, from what might, reading of these people is like, this is what red-pilled a lot of people to the alt-right. Many whites will realize, some for the first time, that we have Africa in our midst, that utterly alien Africa of roadside corpses, cruelty and anarchy that they thought could never wash up on these shores. To be sure, the story of Hurricane Katrina does have a moral for anyone not

33:58deliberately blind. The races are different. Blacks and whites are different. When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization, any kind of civilization disappears. And in a crisis, it disappears overnight. Now I'm saying to you, if he wrote this about Jews, you would not be able to overlook it and say it was an important center for high-quality discussions about Jews, but you are able to overlook it and say it's a place for high-quality discussions about race. And that I can't understand that. And by the way, just while I'm here, you know, you also said, like there's some Twitter conversations, Jews tried to be white nationalists. 40% of the speakers at the first Amerandne, America, Maryland, as conference were Jews, but they got chased away by Kevin McDonald fans. And as soon as a non-anti-Semitic white national organization was created, Jews showed up and said, we're here to help. White nationalists told them to piss off, now complain that Jews don't support them. So this really does sound. I'm not being unfair to you. This does sound like these are

35:03your people. So I can't answer for what other people have written. I'm Jared Taylor has very different views than I do on certain topics. He is a white nationalist. But you characterize him as a high-quality place for talk about race. So I said, American Renaissance, he's the husband, okay, good. For many years, a place where there have been intelligence-avisigated people, Michael Levin, for example, who was a philosophy professor at City University wrote an important book on race. So I recommend that people listening to this who are wondering what to think, look up Michael Levin and draw their own conclusions. I'd never heard of him. I looked him up, you can find him on rumble. Here's a little bit of his lecture called, is there a superior race? And he's being introduced by the aforementioned Jared Taylor. As you know, the professor Levin is best known for his writing

36:05and public speaking of the question of race and IQ. And his book, Why Race Matters, was one of those rare literary achievements that is actually reviewed on the front page of American Renaissance. Tell that to the audience. But as I say, Professor Levin is back for his third straight-day conference and I'd like you to give him a very, very warm welcome. So the box score is this, by the four standards that people ordinarily use when they talk of one person, one group, being superior to another, I think it's true that whites is superior. It's a very hard thing to say. Saying on television really take a lot of guts, but I think it's true. I think it's what the facts support. And actually my first contact with Professor Levin was a fan letter that I wrote to him 10 years ago. We call them moral or principle to may follow the golden rule. And the fact is that this trait, I think the evidence is fairly clear, this trait, this important

37:12trait, is not distributed evenly among the races. I think it's, there's a good deal of evidence that blacks, for example, are less concerned with this sort of golden rule, when you're thinking, than whites are. There was a study I quoted in my book about turn-taking. Black behavior, turn-taking situations, they have more difficulty. So waiting their turn, well, the other guy gets his turn, much more inclined and pulsively to burst in. Many people, sort of something that's discussed even in Hollywood, the fact that blacks talk back to the movies, in the movie theater, which shows a lack of empathy for the people that just want to watch the movie. I've had blacks never existed. Obviously, Africa would have been different, but Asia and the United States would not have been very different at all. Our history would have been a little different, but basically the world that we see would be the world that would be here. If Asians hadn't existed, Amy Wax has recently spoken

38:17at the American Renaissance Conference, a professor of law at Penn. Now there are many people who've spoken at American Renaissance who I don't think contributed to the conversation, but I don't have any relationship with American Renaissance. Well, is Jared Taylor a racist? I don't think he has hostility to people on the basis of race. I began, that doesn't mean that everything I can answer for everything that he said. But if I said Jews, if I said Jews, and I said, go ahead, sorry, American Renaissance, peep speakers of American Renaissance, they also said things about Jews. Now I don't think that every negative comment or unflattering comment ever made about Jews is anti-Semitic. But if Adolf Hitler had said Jews and whites, Jews and Germans are different. When Jews are left entirely to their own devices,

39:20German civilization, any kind of civilization disappears. In a crisis, it disappears overnight. This would be something we all quoted of Hitler as evidence of his anti-Semitism. It wouldn't be a close case. So do this thing where they take a passage from mine conf, and they attribute it to somebody that they don't like. Then they fool people into thinking that no, this other person said it. It's like, oh, they're really Hitler. You know this passage. Everything sounds very sinister. The name of the column is Africa in our midst. Come on now. All right, let's move on then. Look, my comment in the guide wasn't that I agree with what Jared Taylor said about this essay that you're reading or that this is how I think we should express ourselves. Okay. Let me, let me, let me, let me, let me show you there's more parallels. So

40:20I think that you're very close to Jared Taylor. Although I totally open to the fact that you're not like him and that you that there was, there's some, you know, some issue where you guys simply come to a certain fork in the road. And then he goes sharp left and you go sharp right. I don't mean left or right by liberal. I just mean like, you know, diverge strongly. But these are all, I mean, questions, you, you, it's fine to ask them. Yeah. But you know, there's, this kind of guilt by association. She's not guilt by association. Look, so I said that American Renaissance has platformed high quality discussions of race. I mentioned a couple names. Then you say that, okay, Jared Taylor said this, this thing maybe using language that I might not use. So what do I think about that? Well, I'll tell you why it's not guilt by association because this guy Kevin McDonald who said some hateful things or junk science things about Jews. You want,

41:27you want to depart company with him. All right. Listen, let me, let me, let me, let me do run down because I really am not being unfair. And so I, I found, okay, so in the, in the, hereditary, guy to hereditary, he doesn't matter, a guide for the hereditary revolution. You say, um, after knowledge of race, differences spread, people's moral intuition, intuitions will start to adjust and institutions and social norms will increasingly reflect the new preferences of the elites. Jared Taylor has written, I declare the experiment a failure. American society should be reordered, let people of different races go their separate ways if that's what they want. Basically, two ways of saying the same thing. You're right. Uh, and it's natural to care about the fate of your people, our physical and psychological nature reflect our racial heritage. He writes, shit, he writes, uh, we should recognize the normal healthy

42:30desire of many citizens to live in a way that is culturally and racially coherent. You're right. Those who truly value diversity should favor the preservation of racial distinctions. There must be some barriers set up between the races in order for each one to express its own unique genius. He writes, ask yourself, what's the point of a mixed race society? Would you build one if you were starting from scratch? What are the advantages? Seriously? Is diversity so inherently marvelous that we should outlaw the very idea of people going their own way? No. People outlaw the idea because homogeneity is marvelous and people want it. But we've been on the road to nowhere for so long, we don't dare turn back. So then, and now this is where I think you've on record as a agreeing with him, I have a video I can play with. He writes, um, freedom of association is a basic freedom. For some, it means integration, but there should be no moral or legal obstacle to those for whom it means separation. And you write, suppose we

43:32eliminated civil rights laws and gave people back their freedom of association and the right to create their own workplace cultures. Most leading institutions would continue to be the same, but it's a move point because it's probably pointless to attempt to change the law, unless we also gain the support of the people who interpret and implement the law. Now what you're saying there is that until people accept hereditaryanism, you'll never get a critical mass of elites to change the laws and repeal the civil rights law to go back to what you regard as our right, a freedom of association. Now just just just really it's not it's not guilt by association. Can you play that mp4 copnus on Jared Taylor? Uh, what are copnus's thoughts on Jared Taylor? Um, I will be very interested to see Jared's response to, um,

44:33how it's terms with McDonald. His policy positions are, um, the uh, opposes immigration and he advocates free association. Now he's considered a extraordinarily politically incorrect figure. I think he's made a, a, a very serious strategic error by associating himself with people like Richard Spencer and um, although he hasn't endorsed Kevin McDonald, he's uh, been on panels within, uh, hasn't associated himself from, from the Donalds. But in principle, I think the free association is a reasonable policy that

45:46should not, not not an extremist position, uh, something that could be accepted by liberals, conservatives. Okay, Steven. And later on you talk about the movement. So what is freedom association? What, what, what is your vision of freedom of association? How does that uh, interact with the barriers? What would people be allowed to do? Well, I'm, I'm advocating freedom. Freedom, it's freedom of association, right? No, no blacks, no blacks in my restaurant. Uh, that kind of freedom of association. Why, why would you bar blacks from your restaurant? Maybe I hate them. Okay. So it's, uh, you might just plenty, there's plenty of, there's plenty of people, there's plenty of people today in the United States of America that were very happily, happily say, no Israelis in my restaurant, no Jews in my restaurant. I, I've seen that they have them in Europe. They have the signs that say Zionists

46:50uh, not welcome. So okay, I find a different restaurant. Um, Zionists is of course the word, right politically correct word. But you feel this is important for America to, to go to this I think you're mixing a certain scientific, uh, data study and how, you know, data is data like I just saw on, um, Twitter the other day that they, they found that Korean kids adopted it birth. You know, going to graduate school, basically the same rate as other like I, you can't, there's a lot out there. I'm not, I'm not here to tell you that the universe is, is, is wonderful and how it's all people. But it seems to me that everything everybody was worried about. What could come from these ideas is what you're, you're pushing forward here like, like rather than saying, well, let's, let's triple our efforts to make sure, you know, let's, you know, say, well, you know, let's cut bait and you know, like, like I said, I kept, yeah, I'm good. You brought up a good, sorry, uh, a number of points. Yeah. I mean, talk about the freedom of social speech.

47:51Dr. Carol L's between some things that Jared Taylor has written that I've written. I mean, we've both written on a similar topic. So yeah, and our position in favor of free association, which I don't see why somebody would regard that as so sinister, freedom of association. I, I don't see why when Americans get freedom of association, they're going to ban black people or Jews from their restaurants. They have to, maybe, maybe some will. I mean, you go to the, the somewhere in the hills of Kentucky, some diner will ban blacks and Jews and yeah, that's unfortunate, but I think that, uh, okay, that freedom, freedom is my load star. And I don't see that as being a big risk anyway. But don't you see, first of all, there's a, there's a certain

48:54thing if it's not broken, don't fix it, right? Unless America, unless America is suffering from the fact that we don't have the right to, um, essentially, harken back to certain Jim Crow era practices. Jim Crow was legal segregation. So the government came in and said, you're not allowed. No, I'm saying you're cruel era, meaning, meaning where, where blacks, you know, could go to a certain part of the rest and couldn't sit at the, could instead of the lunch counter. This is these are the things which we would now allow people to do as individuals, not legal, not, not, not, not, because the government made rules because if they didn't have those laws, then people would have 100 ignored them. Yes, I have, I don't, I understand, but from the point of view of the black citizen, what I'm saying is like, what is broken here? That you feel that it's so necessary to revisit, allowing people to make

49:59such decisions. What is the social ill that we're living under? So you know what, we need to change something around here because, and, and that change needs to be, people need to be able to just get to say, no, blacks loud, no, Jews loud, no, because our freedom of the, like what, who's the I get Jared Taylor when he believes that the Western civilization, any kind of civilization disappears whenever black people are around. Yeah, I, doesn't shock me at all. He wants to belong to it all white club and all that's clear what he wants, but why do you want it? Right, right now, the government becomes intimately involved in people's associations because in certain contexts, if there isn't sufficient racial diversity or other kinds of diversity, the government regards that as primafacia evidence of discrimination, and then the onus is on you to prove that you're not discriminating. So the government already has its hands in, you know, people's business in

51:02very intimate way that that I don't agree with, with some libertarian leanings. You fear that if people had freedom of association, then we would go back to Jim Crow, if people would spontaneously institute all these racist policies, but I don't see why that would happen. I also feel, I also fear something in the very process of making that change, which is that the people who come out of the woodwork and fight for it. Listen, I described you to somebody as, and I said, I know this is corny, but I don't feel he's a patriot to hear me out in the sense that one of the deepest obligations of patriotism is to have this love for all your citizens and concern,

52:06your fellow citizens and concern for them. And you know, if you imagine yourself on the different end of this stick, the shit end of the stick in these new policies that you're hoping for, maybe you wouldn't be advocating for them, but the kind of things that people are going to be saying out loud in that process, in that totally quick, exotic process of, because you know, it's never going to happen, even a constitutional convention or, you know, this very difficult process of changing this or a Supreme Court that's going to overrule, none of this is actually going to happen. What are the rules? What? You mean freedom of the people who are over the civil rights act, the civil rights act of 64 or whatever, you know, like none of that's actually going to happen. All we're going to do is raise the temperature and encourage the gyretellers. Now, let me ask you one of the questions, because it's all related in this other thing. And this is what's actually the first thing I should have

53:09mentioned. Even now when wokeism does not pose a serious physical threat to anyone, it is poisoned art, cultural scholarship and social relationships. And here is the only example in your article, the hereditary revolution article, where you give a concrete example of why this is necessary. This is what you say. I think it's the only example. White children are brainwashed to despise themselves because of their skin color. And, it totally, white children are sometimes driven to transgenderism in an attempt to escape the shameful status of oppressor. So, am I really supposed to get behind this transformative plan for a nuclear equilibrium because white children are just brainwashed to despise themselves because of the skin color. First of all, I don't even know that that's true. Second of all, the notions of like inherited guilt, these ridiculous notions of inherited guilt that these white kids might be being taught by the woke people. And obviously,

54:14America is sick and tired of walking us anyway. And who even knows without Twitter and social media, how many people would really be woke? But let's just say that these whites, so you tell the kids, listen, we're not going to teach history anymore this way. We're not going to bash America anymore. We're going to tell kids, you're not responsible for what anybody did or didn't do. You don't need to despise yourself. You have no connection to what it is we're talking about. But we want to do a flip it. But for the black kids now, we want them to live in a world where it's normalized, whether in the halls of Congress they discuss about the fact, oh, we got a face reality here. You know, blacks are one standard deviation less intelligent than white people. And of course, and I'm taking it from your point of view here. Don't confuse it from my point of view, which is like, if I'm confidence and I believe that these black kids aren't even smart enough to understand what overlapping means and distributions mean, you're going to teach all these kids to grow up with not some ridiculous notion of America that you can explain to them is not fair, but actually

55:17in a theory already complex. Hey, dude, don't dream of being a professor. Don't dream of being the physicist. Don't be a thing because it's as if like a Jewish kids dreaming of being a linebacker. Like, yeah, it's not going to happen. You know, this is what you want to teach them. And I'm saying, that's not the soul of an American patriot. You don't want to, you don't want to to ram that down the throats of young children, even if it is God forbid, true. And I don't believe it's true. I don't, I don't, I don't believe. I have something else to say about that later. But what do you respond to that? White, white kids are despising themselves. That's what I'm talking about. It's going to be defensive about whether I'm a patriot or not. I'm sure your patriotic. I explained what I meant by that. I explained what I meant by that. But I, uh, certain my feeling of my identity as American has grown deeper as I've experienced other countries and understood more profoundly. The American understanding of freedom

56:24and how it's different from the rest of the world and how I identified with, with what I see as traditional American values and feeling American. But anyway, leaving that aside, I certainly don't think that what I'm doing is quicksotic. First, it's important to realize that, okay, a lot of people now have seen me talking about this stuff. They identify me as the guy who talks about her reditarianism. This stuff is very well known among young people, particularly young conservatives. And, uh, in fact, I've met many conservatives from the Gen Z generation. Hereditarianism, race realism, this isn't something they argue about. It isn't controversial. The only reason that we're not hearing about it is because the boomer and Gen X gatekeepers

57:26are preventing everybody from talking about it in national review or on Fox News. But it's coming. This is going, this is going to break through into the mainstream. It's just a matter of time. And the question is, how are we going to talk about it? Not whether we're going to talk about it or if I would stop talking about it, then the issue would go away. That's not happening. People who grew up with the internet, they've developed in a totally different informational environment than we did. I was born in 87. So the internet wasn't really a thing in the way that it is now when I was growing up. The first time that I learned about hereditarianism and the science of race, I was 17 years old in the college classroom. I heard it from the professor. That's not how it is now. People learn about it when they're little kids on the internet.

58:26And the conclusion that people are drawing is that the Nazis who said that races are different, they must be right about everything. Because, well, the establishment, my teachers, the New York Times, all the authorities who are saying that there are no differences as metaphysically impossible for there to be average differences between groups. They're obviously wrong, if not lying. So therefore I'm going to go listen to the Nazis. Then that is actually what's happening on a pretty large scale. When you make a calculation about, well, if a craftness says these things, then people will feel bad or whatever. Okay, that's a legitimate point. But you also have to consider the alternatives, which is that the issue is here and we're going to have to deal with it

59:27when we want to. I'm sorry. I'm listening to carefully and I want to find something that you say to latch on to. Like I say, okay, I feel better now. Because I watched you for a lot in the last 48 hours and at certain times, on certain subjects, you're very, very bright. And the way you proceed from point to point is very pleasant to watch as an intellectual person. You're very smart and you make a lot of sense in certain ways. And then you just go left. So in my opinion, so, first of all, I just want to say that, you know, I don't think you really answered my point, my circumstantial point that I found telling, which led me to the gyro tale of the thing was that you lead with the fact that white kids are learning to despise themselves. That's kind of a tell as to where someone is coming from, what it is that they, like, what toe was stepped on that caused you

1:00:34to say, ow, but then yes, I agree with you. And that's the only reason I'm doing this interview. I have to think 10 times about doing this interview because I don't like this topic publicly, as much as I can't deny that the whole nature of the human biology. And this is obviously interesting to a curious person. But the reason I said I will do the interview is because people are hearing it anyway. People are hearing it anyway. And so I want to do my part to helping people put it in perspective such closer to the way I put it in perspective. And certainly, when you, when you, couple what you're saying with statements about how smart people have more human worth than less intelligent people, that lower IQ people are just more likely to be criminals than

1:01:35higher IQ people. When you, when you, like, you, you liked, and you don't like a lot of things on your sub stack, this article by this zero contradictions dot net, you know, this, this article, it's a FAQ on how to people understand hereditary news and better. And it just talks about all the alleles that black people supposedly have it being like unable to follow rules and, you know, ran bunches and it's not just that the lower IQ they have six other reasons that they're more likely to be criminals and, by the way, it also says that black people are genetically less likely to respond to chirping of smoke alarms. You know, this is, this is like to me, it's like I'm presuming that's junk science. I don't think there's a, you know, sufficient, I mean, to me, it's just seems ridiculous and that you would in any way whatsoever lend your impromotor to that kind of stuff. Yeah, sure, people are going to talk about this anyway. So why don't you help us digest it in a way that that doesn't drive

1:02:37people apart from each other. And let me just say one other thing while I got you here because this is, this is, I think, is a good, um, cautionary tale in the bell curve. Charles Murray, who now looks like an old, funny, dirty compared to what people are saying now. This is at the height of crime. Charles Murray wrote in trying to understand how to deal with the crime problem, much of the attention now given to the problems of poverty and unemployment should be shifted for another question altogether. Coping with cognitive disadvantage. So we're not going to be able to fight crime unless we cope with cognitive disadvantage. And sure enough, we did fight crime. Crime plummeted to levels we never imagined possible. And we never actually put cognitive disadvantage front and center. And thank God that we didn't, right? You agree with that? Thank God we didn't follow Charles Murray's advice. He was fucking wrong. And you know, I was seven, I was seven years old when he wrote that.

1:03:43But it's a simple, but he's echoing your echo. You're echoing a certain fatalism about the only way to solve certain problems is by ripping the bandaid off. Let's just talk about this. And you brought up a number of points. I feel that in the background of some of your comments is the idea that everything is currently just fine. There's no problem at all. No race problem or something that can be easily solved just by pause there for just one second because I'm fine to talk about that. I just want to say everything I'm presenting here is the reason I said I think you're a white nationalist and I and I you know, I don't expect you to accept that I've been fair with you. But at some point, you know, I will post like this zero contradictions. Net article that you do zero contradictions. He's a very artistic, careful rider. I, you know, I've, he's written a

1:04:54tremendous amount off the top of my head. I can't necessarily tell you what his source is for a random sentence. Many many plays with zero contradictions is he's very thorough and careful. I mean, there are a lot of illegals that say 80% black people have that only 20% that let's say 80% black people have and only 20% of white people have many places in the GM one or like in the GM or like that, which is what causes racial differences in appearance and behavior. Black people probably have more illegals related to aggressive behavior, lower foresight, worse impulse control and average, which counts for that groups five to eight times higher chance of committing a homicide. And of course criminal behavior isn't also purely genetic. It's also result of random factors. But these aren't the main factors regarding appeals behavior in the grand scheme of things. Like this is like why would you want to dip your tip of your pinky into endorsing a guy like that? Like or let me put it another way. Do you believe that's true?

1:05:57So there are genetic differences that account for behavioral differences between populations. That black people have more illegals for aggressive, lower foresight, worse impulse control. Look, these are heritable traits that's not even conscious. It's not controversial that they're heritable these are heritable traits within populations. And yet crime in New York is way down down to levels. Why? Because of much more sophisticated policing. And I wasn't there in 1994 when Charles Murray made a wrong prediction. I can't be held accountable for that. I have not made any wrong. I'm accountable for my predictions. But I don't think you answered. I'll answer. Go ahead, sorry. What's the question? The objection, which is, if you think that everything is fine and there's no problem and we're going to solve and the wokeism is something that's not a big deal anymore. Everyone's tired of it and we're moving on and we can just kind of do the Glenn Lowry, John McWhorter strategy and then

1:07:03no problem. Then, yeah, sure. Then there's no, then you would think that why would we talk about her editorianism? There are lots of offensive things that are true that we don't talk about because it's not not necessary. So this could be just another example of that. My claim is that actually things are not okay at all. That if we have this ideology that says all people are on average exactly the same disparities are the result of the environment, specifically white racism. And this is just a disastrous ideology, which is, is never going to go away. Our whole society revolves around this idea and correcting the disparities and sniffing out white racism wherever it is. And we go through periods where we're more or less the war against racism is more or less intense. But this has been going on for generations.

1:08:12So let me answer you. Yeah. Okay. Finish your. I listen, I don't think everything is fine. I don't think there's been a time in the 250 years of America you could ask somebody and say, yeah, everything is fine. There's always there's always a problem. I have a theory that humans always need to have a certain kind of level of concern and worry about things so that the analogy I've made before is like, you know, you look through a microscope or you just look at a slide and you see all these terrible things on the slide. And you, with a tweezer, you take them out and now they're gone. And then you put under microscope at the first level of magnification and say, oh my god, look at that. And then you clean all that up and then you double the magnification. And at some point, you're looking at, you know, 512 or 1,024 or whatever the magnification. But when you look

1:09:17through the microscope, it looks, it looks just as big and as ominous as it did when we were looking with the naked eye. And I think we tend to do this with problems. And I think that's what this problem that you're referring to, especially now that it's on a low-ab, Trump on the popular vote, eliminated racial preferences in the Supreme Court is, you know, and I'm endorsing all these things, although I do endorse the Supreme Court. Joe Rogan and all these anti-wulk podcasters of the biggest podcasters in the world, there's so many, I mean, if you were in the woke business, there's so many reasons you'd have to be very worried that your business was on a downward trajectory. I think that what you're looking through is what I'm describing, ultra-magnified kind of a session like Daniel Coneman used to say, nothing is ever as important as it seems to be when you're thinking about it. I don't think moatness is as serious as it seems to be when you're thinking about it. And this is our lives, our careers justice. You, yes, because

1:10:25you inhabit the ultimate third rail of research, yes, for you, I agree. For you, I agree, but you are representative of like one tenth of one-thousandth of one percent of- No, I'm talking about white people, particularly millennial white males, for example. The affirmative action has been for many of us the defining factor in our lives and our careers. So- I opposed it. But they've been- But they've all heard it now. It's gone now. So now we have a war between the extreme woke. Kamala Harris was going to be the wokenest president in history. She won like three quarters of the vote among people with advanced degrees. So that was very recently.

1:11:31There's no evidence that people have actually changed their ideology. It's just that the plebeians who never really understood what woke was about and managed to elect their candidate, who, you know, I don't know if you're pleased with how that's going. The anti-woke movement is going. But I have some serious problems with the alternatives that have been offered to wokeism and the fact that the cognitive elites remain overwhelmingly on the woke left. And I don't think that the mage or right is going to be able to establish a functioning society in the long run. Well, right now we're poised to go back and forth between the extreme wokeism and a right wing which is becoming increasingly notified.

1:12:37If you- Yes, but if you want to breathe new life into the woke movement, just let the next presidential candidate start talking about her reditarianism. I mean, this is- this is- but I was not a question. Okay, so that's the thing. People say, well, if you show the wokes they're wrong, then they'll just get madder and become even more woke. I don't agree with that. Okay, that's your thing. That there are some some woke people if you show them the wrong many woke people will never- Yes, you could sit there, but some will- But you can't show them they're wrong, coupled with a flirtation with all these things that I'm describing. This is my point to you when- when Stephen Pinker was gotten in trouble for some of this. I'm probably from wrong, this is from memory now. Stephen Pinker, I remember wrote something about IQ and intelligence. And it was another guy, another Jew, in the in the New York Times, some doctors as many years ago already wrote some op-ed. And the New York Times published it saying, you know, we better get ready for this. It's coming, you know, cognitive differences. David Reich. David Reich is a also a professor

1:13:41at Harvard who wrote, as you say, that- Yeah, the science is coming, that the race, that the deniers, that the people who say that there are no group differences in traits like intelligence are going against the science. Now, there's no way Stephen Pinker is going to hem in hall or want to be or say anything even the slightest bit favorable about Jared Taylor and his outfit, where he's not going to talk about the reason we need to do this is because white kids are learning to despise themselves. I think this is- I'm kind of productive. I want to ask you a different question. As a science, but this is- This is going to have to make it a place here. Please do. So Stephen Pinker, who I have great respect for, I'm a huge fan, all that, he had been talking about the possibility of race differences for many years. He- I can't remember what year it was published, but he published a chapter in a book called What's Your Dangerous Idea, where he said that there may be genetic

1:14:45differences between people. He gave a talk on where he more or less endorsed the idea that there had been selection for intelligence in the Jewish population. So- but yes, you're right. He was not very aggressive about it and he spoke in the more euphemistic language that you favor. And what was the result? Did Harvard become less woke over the last 30 years that Pinker has been making these comments? Whereas it become the wokeest place on earth? You're not- you're not postulating. You're not saying if Pinker had said what you wanted him to say, he would have somehow overcome the tsunami of- I'm saying to Scott Pinker's responsibility, but I'm saying there were people who took the strategy that you say is the right one. And we're not just Pinker, but there

1:15:46are other people who also spoke in code. Well, I'm saying it's the right one from your point of it. I don't think Pinker had- Pinker was not trying to reorder society. Okay, so I am. I'm trying to defeat wokeism. I'm trying to defeat wokeism. And you suggested that, well, maybe I would have more luck if I would adopt- if I would speak more like Stephen Pinker. So we already have Stephen Pinker, has been speaking like Stephen Pinker for a long time. And other people have been doing the same thing. And- So, so wokeism- wokeer. So- I think- to me wokeism, and I hope we have time for like one or two more- to me, wokeism was characterized by mob mentality being able to avail itself of new tools, Twitter and the like, to express false outrage. And it was amplified and by COVID and George Floyd and all sorts of outlier events, outlier probability events. And it reached

1:16:59a national mouth-forming point and it was, you know, it's closed cousin, was a me too. And- and there's such a general recognition now that it was an overshoot and kind of a moral panic such that we haven't heard about anybody getting ruined or me too, or canceled in a while. It's really- it's- I don't feel nearly the same worry that I used to feel after every show. Oh my god. What are they gonna clip out? What are they gonna clip out now? What are they gonna clip out now? It's- it's receding. Um, and- and that's how- that's how I feel about it. Uh, and I hope it continues to recede. And yet, well, just bring these to my next point. So you're a scientist. Let me just check with you. You believe in the merits of- the importance, the integrity of double-blind experiments, meaning like, you know, even condominent written about Daniel Connman is the guy wrote this book thinking fast, thinking slow, you know, a very important book. I don't know. He just did the test

1:18:01of time. And he wrote in that book about how he- when he- when he knew he was reading the paper of someone he had previously greeted- graded well, he noticed that he was now giving their next paper a- a better grade. And he- then he created a system for himself that he wouldn't know who he was grading. But of course, in general, we all learn about double-blind experiments that if the researcher knows who has the placebo and who has the medication, who has this, you know, anything about the psychological experiment, that distorts the results of the experiment. And are you worried that everyday people of average intelligence, when they hear this hereditaryism about frequencies of certain people being just less intelligent, that they won't begin to see this. Like, if I have a job interview with a black dude, any hems and haws or says something, you know, in artful, like I do everyday, he'll say, oh, there it is, you know, that's- that's all I need to hear. That's a black guy, you know, the human mind just connects the dots. The smartest people do this. I've had conversations.

1:19:05I don't even want to repeat in my life, for people- I've seen what I'm saying. What are you doing? That- why does nothing do with the other? But they- they put these things together. Aren't you worried about that lack of abandoning essentially double blindness in our- in our relationships with people? So in the big- in the first part of that, you- you mix up the methods of wokeism with the ideology itself. So, cancelling people on Twitter or mobbing them or cancelling them in the way that was characteristic of the great awakening. You're right. Those were methods employed by people with a certain ideology. Similar methods can be employed by people with other ideologies. The defining feature of wokeism isn't that they engage in mobbing- something which humans have always done since we were going back to home or erectus, or the fact that people were very sensitive about- about deviation

1:20:05from the ideology. The ideology was the denial of group differences and the idea that group disparities present a moral emergency to correct the environment and bring about a quality of outcome. Can I- can I redeem myself? You're 100% right in your logical thing there. But I meant- I didn't probably- I just didn't express it, which is that- it relatively small number of people were able to leverage all these tools to bring pressure to bear on people in a way and mobs and shame people into this stuff. In a way, they were never in the past. These people always believed this kind of stuff. But now in the era of social media, they were able to- as I say- it's like- I always talk about the Wizard of Oz- Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. That's kind of what the woke mob was. So, yes, but you're- I take your point. So go ahead.

1:21:11So, okay. So now in the year 1101, I could have made comments similar to the ones you just made about wokeism saying how Christianity is on the wane. It's not really a big thing anymore. And I could give you statistics about well, in the last three years ago, you couldn't say anything or you would be killed, burned at the stake. And now it's not like that anymore. So, you know, just- stop talking about Christianity. It's not a factor. Yeah. Well, the crusade was from 1096 to 1099, and then the crusade is over. And so, yes, that intensity isn't going to be maintained forever, but there will be other crusades. It's not going away because the ideology is still there. And it's the same with wokeism. The ideology is still there. People have not changed their minds. The same people who were engaging in cancellations in 2020 to 2020, they still feel the same way. They've

1:22:19been disempowered, but it just takes one election for somebody like Kamala Harris or even woker than she is to open the floodgates. Again, do you feel like any of your personal bitterness from what you've been through and the way you've been treated fuels any of this, maybe in some way distorts your ability to think about it in a more disinterested way? Distorts my- look, the argument stands or falls on itself. I say that wokeism is based on a logical argument, which is starting with the empirical premise of group sameness. If there's an argument against that, then I'm open to hearing it. Now, obviously, I have experiences with wokeism, that I don't make a secret of that. Well, you've been vilified. I mean, I didn't know of you,

1:23:22but after reading about what you've been through, I could see you be very bitter. I mean, bitter sam has a very negative connotation. Yeah. When you treat it unfairly, because you're engaging in ideas in good faith and your opinion, then of course, you'd be bitter. You can't get a job, you get fired, you get cold names. I mean, it's kind of boring to whine about that kind of thing, but you're not sure. I do want to make one more comment about the thing that you said at the end about well, people won't understand overlapping distributions and then they'll... Well, I said that they will distort their opinion of people in the same way, researchers who are trained not to can't help but distort. Well, researchers who are trained don't understand the concepts of overlapping bell curves.

1:24:22I meant that when we will not allow any medication to go to market. If the guy doing the research knew who had the placebo and who didn't, just like anytime you hear about symptoms on a TV show, you think, I think I have that, right? This is very human. So I'm saying like, when you start telling everybody, which is become second nature, everybody knows, oh, these people are less intelligent, then when they meet somebody, then that becomes the way they perceive that person. I mean, there's been studies, I don't want to bore it like those studies were like they gave second grade teachers. It was in mixed classrooms. When they gave them created essays by students, but when the essays kind of were coded for black names and stuff like that, not overwhelmingly, but to some degree, the teachers scored the same essays worse when it appeared that the essay was written by a black student. I mean, many of those many of these studies are faking. Many of the

1:25:24studies in Kahneman's book have also sent you this one off the air. But go ahead. In general, you agree with double blind theory. There's a well-known study which found that white liberals, you probably saw the headlines about this, white liberals dumb down their language when they speak to black people. Because they listened to you. No other, no other. Well, that's the thing, right? The people who don't listen to me have these stereotypes. I look, people have stereotypes. People live in the world and people make generalizations, whether it's conscious or not. I actually think that you shouldn't dumb down your language when you're talking to everybody. I think in general that doesn't... Not an effective way to communicate.

1:26:31You don't have to show people the scientific data for them to have stereotypes and to make generalizations about the world that reflect what the data show. No, but it... When you tell them the data, it's just going to amplify the effect. Now, I have two personal anecdotes. I know anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence, but even you cite an anecdotal thing. I told these on the show before. One is a friend of mine whose child was not thriving as a nursery school, or something like that. They did a battery test. They said, Mr. and Mrs. X, child has under 90 IQ. You have to face reality. These are the things you should do. The mother just wasn't having it. She wouldn't accept it. She's like, no, and she...

1:27:36But this effort into a net effort to a net effort to it and never told him. The kid just recently graduated Dartmouth. White kid, no special treatment. Just wildly wrong. There's always these false negatives. You can raise a kid's SAT scores with SAT privilege kids. They take all the SAT courses. We know there's many false positives. Kids who score better than they're ought to be scoring. We're perfectly fine with that. Then we have the kids who are under-privileged. We know X number of them. We don't know what that X is, but X number them underscore their true potential. Because their environment is much closer to an environment where you would really begin to see that effect. Nobody tells them to do their homework. The schools are awful. Who knows what they're going through? We're ready to just say, whatever happens to them. We're going to cut bait on them. Then the other

1:28:37anecdote I have is my own family. My son was diagnosed with all these learning issues. He went to this Lowell School in Queens, a special school for kids with these learning issues. He wasn't learning a fucking thing. I said, are you going to get him take the regiants? Are you going to do this? Mr. Dwarmman, please, we're the experts here. We know how these things. I remember saying, he can't even know how to sign his name. They're not using script anymore. He doesn't even know how to do 15% to give a tip. She's like, in the days when 15% was a tip. She says to me, 15% is easy. You take 10% and then just take half of that. I said, I know how to do 15% he doesn't know how to do 15% and so I finally got fed up. Now these are the experts and I pulled them out of school and I put them just regular fucking public school in Arzlie, New York. This kid got an 88 on the American History Regions, a 90 something on the trigonometry regions. They saw in him what his, you know,

1:29:43dossier told them to see in him. Not one of these experts recognized in him. Oh, this kid is actually way smarter than, you know, so this is all in informs me and that brings me to, can you play Nicole Hannah Jones daughter? So this, you, I'm sure you followed this amazing Nicole Hannah Jones column where she about her daughter and all this stuff. I've been so busy recently. I have been able to find. I know it's a big thing. So this is a conversation between Nicole Hannah Jones and her daughter and after you hear it, this is God bless the call Hannah Jones's daughter. She, I mean, she speaks up for herself and it's nice that the mother obviously gives her the green light to do so. But I want you to hear it and then respond to what this conversation would or wouldn't look like in the new equilibrium society of Nathan Coughness go ahead Stephen. It's like why should my child be the one that's rescued? Like you should escape what we confine so many other kids just like you too. I just would never feel right about that.

1:30:49Why, why it makes no sense. You're talking about oh, I'm just going to give you the worst just because it's not fair that you, I actually board all you're supposed to do is just like put in a good school like oh, well, I don't want to put you in a great school and have you have adventures over other kids? Isn't that what you want? Isn't that what you want me to have? Is that no, no, no, no, normal thing you want me to have? You don't want me to. You do though. Okay, yeah, but you do. You have advantages. You have so many advantages. Right. Okay, so but I'm not seeing I'm seeing him school wise. I'm in school every day. I'm in a, I was in not going every single day. That doesn't make sense. I'm there more than home. Obviously, I get more in general, but schools the most important thing. Why do you imagine like you're able to do well in it? Because it's a better school, but you, you think it's possible your foundation wasn't as terrible as you think it is. No. So you think you came in like a blank slate of

1:31:53the now I've learned everything there. No, but you have been able to have the same academic success or classmates because well, not even though like I everyone last year, I had my grade come out. I remember crying because everyone else's like score was so good. And it was just like, how is this so easy for everyone else but me? So now I don't think that I got through it. I think I just tried, tried my heart. Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to say you did not receive the top either quality middle school. I'll mention you with that's even basic fractions. I mean like I was never taught that. I had to relearn everything for my tutor. That's fair. Everyone's not sure. Not sure, kid. That's right. Can't say that everyone doesn't want to be saved. That's what you think though. That's it. You think that's even that's basically it. So you know, this is a

1:32:53heart-rending thing to me and I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is it your position that everything they're discussing there was really I don't know what the words a delusion in some way that they believe that this actually matters which school all of our but in the end, it's just noise that this child is going to be the same regardless of the quality of the education that we give her. So regarding anecdotes, I think I'd have to look at you can fact check me on this. I think that Shaquille O'Neal grew up very short. Look at Stephen Renquan. You see their him or some other basketball player. I'm not really a basketball expert. I remember here. And then suddenly he had this enormous growth spurt and grew a foot. It's not him. There's somebody else. Yeah, somebody else. He was 12. He was six feet four at 12.

1:33:57So who was it? I need a second on that, huh? I mean, Cha-Pat would be able to figure it out. So yes, I mean, this kind of thing happens. And as far as these statistics are far more meaningful on a population level than they are for individuals. And there are many individual exceptions, people who are not just talented test takers, but may have intelligence that is not captured by the test or for some reason, they're just aren't good at taking the test. Or people are conversely, people who are very good at taking tests, but somehow the intelligence doesn't really shine through in any kind of real life or activity. Nevertheless, the statistics are what they are. On average, there are group differences in the ability to

1:35:05cogitate, to use your brain to manipulate information. Okay, but here's Rodman. Dennis Rodman. Just to root. Okay. Dennis Rodman. Yeah. Okay. So here's Rodman. Here's a young girl. And it seems very credible because the mother, you know, seems to understand who was struggling with fractions, struggling with with school. She said because the school was terrible in the in the column, you read nobody was checking her, nobody was doing the homework. They weren't even grading the papers. And now she's in a better school now. And she feels all of a sudden, I'm improving. I'm getting better. I'm learning. And I'm my fear is that a society that embraces your view of the futility of trying to overcome genetics would lose any real interest or urgency in addressing this problem that woke Nicole

1:36:05Hannah Jones actually pissed all over. Yeah, I think that's not the only option. But now she's come around. Yeah. Nicole Hannah Jones didn't want her daughter to have advantages to achieve her full potential, which is the opposite of my view. My view is that everyone should it should be have the resources to achieve their full potential. When it comes to education, we already have more than enough, we're putting more than enough money. We spend it. That's not money. It's not money boggling amount of money. Right. So the problem is how we spend the money. If we have, not the side, the social science on this is clear that the differences between schools, I mean, when you're talking, at least when you're talking about middle class, what is available to middle class people, which doesn't, so I'm not talking about the worst, most dysfunctional schools in the inner city, they may very, very possible that they do

1:37:10disadvantage people in meaningful ways. But if your school is at all functional, then the differences between like the slightly better school, slightly or worse school, or an elite school, they don't seem to make much of a difference in the long run. That's just I tend to agree with the difference in slightly better and slightly worse schools. Don't make a difference in the long run. The difference between a slightly worse school coupled with a slightly worse home environment. I mean, you're not a parent. I mean, just every parent knows if I didn't make my kids study for their exams, do their homework, read to them in ways to improve the vocabulary, get them a tutor if they need tutoring. I'm not fantasizing that I could put them, you know, two standard deviations ahead of where they were. But this matters. It matters an enormous amount.

1:38:12And I have to interject here. We know from adoption studies, so we have identical twins who are separated at birth and raised by different families. Nancy Siegel, Minnesota twin study, we had around years ago. Go ahead. Not really. It makes a difference in childhood. It makes a big difference, but when you look at them by the time they're in their mid-20s, the impact of parenting style has basically faded away. In the aggregate. Only genetic. Now, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take care of your kids and you shouldn't do what's best for your kids. You should because childhood is also an important part of life and people should learn and grow. I can't tell you why. I'm not plausible to me. And I believe, listen, I raised a child that's not my genetic child and he's just like his, I mean, just like his father we never met. So I'm the easiest person

1:39:18to persuade on this stuff. But he's met his father since. But if you look at, let's say, I don't know, the second into father. And you see a group of people who are dressing up their kids in suicide belts and ready to die. And at some point, culture is powerful enough to get one group of people to do things we couldn't even, you wouldn't even believe that was possible that humans would do that. These data only apply to people, Americans who are allowed, who are eligible to adopt children. It doesn't apply. There you go. Oh, there you go. Any other population. So maybe because it's adopted parents are so thoroughly vetted, it doesn't really tell us this guy to be stupid. If you're running a crackhouse, you can't participate in the Minnesota adoption study. And something not quite as bad as a

1:40:23crackhouse, but just a very unwholesome home life. I mean, I'm becoming a cliche left wing person here, which I'm not. But I never meant by being a right wing person to foreclose myself to the idea that nothing matters. That essentially that the way I raise my child just doesn't matter. They can see me stealing from people or they can see me being honest to people. And they'll find their own honest, the, uh, thievery dynamic. And by the way, some of that might be inborn. But I'm just not ready. I just can't believe that. I know how my behavior is informed by certain incidents in my life lessons that I was not taught so much as witnessed, you know. Um, but you probably witnessed many things and their opposite. And somehow one set of things makes

1:41:24an impression on you and not the other, the opposite. And it's just partly your genetic endowment that determines what it is you respond to. All right. And then now you can struck the story about how you were influenced by the environment because, you know, you don't see into your genome. You just experience what happened to you. And so your story about yourself makes reference only to what you experience. Now why do you, why do you, why do you go from this other than some sort of, uh, Natterman, you don't know, Natterman, like, like, figure me out, I don't know, like, like a personality quirk where you like, just can't resist. Why would you premiere yourself to talk about low intelligence being, uh, correlated with lower human worth? Like, like, why would you rob your own credibility that way? And, and close people off to, to receiving you, as they say, when they know that you're also advocating that the fact, not only

1:42:26these people less intelligent, but you know, that also means they're, they're worthless in a, in a more esoteric way or metaphysical way. I think it's the opposite. Uh, I think you shoot your credibility when you deny it. A common accusation made against hereditarians, hereditarians is you can't say this because it would imply that people have different worth, uh, based on IQ, which is a simplification, but okay, but there's some, some relationship. And if you deny it, well, you're denying something that is obviously true. And then it looks, it doesn't look good at all. It doesn't make you look like it's not obviously true. I mean, I mean, it's, first of all, you know, we're, we're entering an age of AI. It could be that all the, the high brain power professions are done by computers. And actually, the, the most human worth is in people with a strong back and, uh, extreme human empathy to be nurses and stuff like that. Like, I don't, I don't know what you're saying is, you know, valuable to what, what do we value about human beings?

1:43:29What makes a human being more valuable than a chimpanzee or a mouse or, or a slug? I don't know. Nobody knows. I know, I know, you know, part of that is intelligence and other qualities that are okay intrinsically related to intelligence. Yeah, but I know you don't like Thomas Jefferson's all men are created equal thing. You wrote that somewhere. But, uh, you know, and you said that, well, you know, all things being equal, you would save the drowning child with a higher IQ. I'm like, you know, I mean, we all, we value different things. I would like my child to be, uh, smart and good looking and musically talented. But if the child turns out to be a bit dim and ugly and tone deaf, am I supposed to tell this child, well, you know, I hope you don't find yourself, uh, in a situation where there's too few lifeboats because they'd be perfectly reasonable in giving your spot to somebody else because, you know, you have less human worth. This is crazy. You don't need to say it. You don't need to say it.

1:44:31But it's true. But if somebody, it's a philosophy, I'm a philosopher. I'm a professional philosopher. If somebody makes the philosophical claim that there's no relation between intelligence and the human worth as a philosopher, I have to object. Well, Charles, even Charles, even Charles, Merden, agree with you. All right. So listen, uh, I'm going to play one last thing before we go. Perry, Perry, all, Perry, all joined us. Do you want to say something? And by the way, I make fun of Perry, all his intelligence all the time. So go ahead. I mean, I think that that is, uh, that's for real voice by the way. Go ahead. An insane thing to say. And I can assure you, she calls everybody insane. Don't worry. No, no, I can assure you that if you had a child who was a moron, and you had the opportunity to save him or her versus somebody else's child who was a genius, he's not going to disagree with that. There's no doubt in my mind that you would save your idiot

1:45:33child. And I'll go on. Of course, because it's my child, so the child is valuable to me. Okay. And if you had a parent, and if you had a parent who is in a hospital and had a very empathetic nurse, because they were suffering, you would value that more than some asshole doctor who was nasty to them. So I mean, to assign value like that seems like an incredibly flawed position to take. But you're, you're, you're attacking the position that value is entirely determined by intelligence, which is certainly not my view. My view is that intelligence is very important. It's one of the very important things that we value the most important. If you I'm not attacking your position. I don't know. The most important thing. I don't know. I'd have to think about that more. But if all things being equal, that's an important clause. All things being

1:46:37equal. If you know nothing more, two people are drowning. And the only thing I know is this one has an IQ of 120. And this one has an IQ of 80. I'm going to save the IQ to 120. Based on all things being equal. Intelligence is a both intrinsically and instrumentally valuable. So what if the person who had an IQ of 120 was a cunt and the other person was just like the nicest person ever? Right. So I said all things being equal. I probably, I probably, I was a prick by the way, so you might want to reacquit or not equal. All things are never equal. And also why are there no books in that? We already already covered that. So to isolate, and then this is the method of philosophy, right? To isolate the value of X, we have to control for everything else. So controlling for everything else, the only difference is intelligence. If intelligence is valuable, then okay, I retreated as valuable. So all right, listen, you've been, you've been a very good

1:47:41guest. I, I feel like I haven't really cracked through. I'm not, I think that there is a, what do I think? I don't think you're, I don't think you're, you're a jarritale or hateful person. I don't think that. I don't know, but I don't, it doesn't seem, I never heard anything you said here or elsewhere, that would imply that. And yet you played to his audience and are clearly reluctant to call him out for things. In the same way you would have he was saying those things about Jews. I think that there's an emotional part of this story. You know, you, you can put Vaseline on a lens and, and blur details for the better. And the picture looks better. Everybody agrees looks better and everything just more harmonious.

1:48:46And you can put too much Vaseline on a lens and you can't even see anything anymore. And there's a, there's a soul that understands that sometimes a little Vaseline on the lens is for the better. I'm struggling to put it in the words. Let me just play you this last video. Play that last video I sent you. So as I'm walking around, I tend to pace when I'm thinking. I had a lot of anxiety about this particular interview. And just like a few minutes before, I got to the olive tree. I'm walking on the street and I see something. I guess I've never seen before. It was these two Jews in Yamagas. I'm going to play for you. This is the very famous West, West Thurstreet basketball court in New York. We're like, you know, generally only good people play. I don't know how those Jews got on the court. But anyway, these two, two Jews are playing these black dudes basketball. And they weren't keep pause, you know. And I thought, what a beautiful

1:49:48thing to see just as I want to talk to you about what it is that I object. So I'll just play a few seconds of a Steven. There's really nothing happens because I've just seen the guy with the Yamaka, you know, and this is... All right, Steven, that's that, that's it. So like this, you can take that. So like this is this beautiful image of, you know, what I think the world should be. Now these kids are wearing Yamagas. They're not sacrificing their diversity, right? They're wearing that diversity loud and clear on their heads and they're going home to, you know, their suckers. But, but, but, but there they are, playing with the black guys while, you know, Gaza is burning. So, and this is a real thing that

1:50:52that that we can aspire to. And it, it, it's important. And, you know, if you come to my restaurant, the olive tree, you'll see every night parties come in, black people with white people with gay people, and they're hanging out and they're having a good time. And it's all real. It's a real friendship, right? And they're quite, you know, I'm sure they're diverse and at the back table, the comedian sit and they're, of course, all different races. And, you know, and they know that some stereotypes are partly true and they make ethnic jokes and they argue, but they love each other and and it all somehow works. And I and I feel like you see these ugly trees of of walkeness or whatever it is and you want to burn them down, but in some way you're not realizing that that fire is going to burn the whole forest down. Like, you're going to, it's, it can spread to the,

1:51:53to the entire social fabric of America. And, you know, I don't know your, your background, but there is something about like my life growing up in New York City Public Schools, being a musician, spending my life around embedded really with, with people of all different colors, black people, or having an Indian wife and, and, and, and all of it that I just feel like it's not nearly as hopeless as you might imagine it to be from the point of view of, of your background and your life, which I know nothing of and I, and I, I shouldn't presume to make assumptions, but I just somehow doubt that it's has steeped in interactions. Many of the people, you know, are totally woke as, as mine has been. And, um, I just feel like you need to have, we all ought to have,

1:52:57because we're all stuck together. You know, like, I, I can see why some nations, it's much easier to be Japan and not have to, but we are all married together as one nation now. And we have to find a way to come together as one nation and if it's not interpreting whatever it is, we, we're, we have to be, we have to be one. And if that means inefficient spending or, you know, as I said, this false positive and false negatives, if, if it's only, you know, five or 10% of a certain population has really given me, and we spend as if it was 50% and we waste a lot of money, we're wasting a lot of money in a, in a good effort. And, you know, this is the last thing I'm finished. Like, I've said for a long time, I, I'm totally with you. When you see this not enough doctors or the color of this, the color, I say, well, this is annoying to me because if you look at the way these kids are in grammar school, what would you predict? Otherwise, I mean, the disparities in achievement between

1:54:01minorities and, and why people and my goodness Asian people in like the sixth grade, they tell you exactly what to expect when they're older. But so long as we haven't really pulled up our sleeves and addressed that problem in the grammar schools, with charter schools, and all the various things out there, this supposedly Mississippi miracle, I don't know the thrill or it's not, but it's all those all sorts of things where, where people like Nicole Hannah Jones, daughter are not coming home to their mothers. He listened, they don't even teach us fractions until we've addressed all that. That's what I think we should be focusing on. And I would say to anybody, any world person, say, don't hand me that about disparities in the, in the medical school, because look at this, look at how these kids are doing when they're young. You know what, stop with that nonsense. Let's all pull, let's all get together and let's address these problems when they are young. And then maybe 30 years from now, AI will come in and swoop in and a lot of these things won't even matter. I don't know. Kick the can down the road in some way. I don't know

1:55:03where reality is, but I do not think you can come to America and tell them, you need to erect barriers between the races and, you know, we need to be able to have freedom association. It doesn't require people to have businesses that serve, so this just to me, it seems like madness to me. All right, I spoke a long time giving you the last words, sir. Jews and black people playing basketball together is completely unremarkable. I grew up, I'm going to add a soundtrack, some violin music but I showed on the other go ahead. I grew up in Manhattan and the family, I will mainly Jewish community, but I interacted with all sorts of people. I don't really care about the race of the people that I'm friends with, that my wife is a different race. My wife is Korean. And then if my friends are, I know that's the stupid thing to say, right? My wife is not stupid.

1:56:08It's not stupid. We're interested in that. My friends are different, different race. That's my view. I don't, so let's let this slide. But let's let this slide in a guide for the rhetoric, Terry and Revolution, is that personally organizing my own life around identity as a Jew or as being white or whatever is not my thing. With respect to the Jews and blacks playing basketball, they're not going to marry each other or some of each other's sisters. They're going to marry within their own group, but the or each other have been interactions. There have been interactions between Jews and and Africans going back thousands of years. As I said, it doesn't have to be like a weird cultural experience. It was just interacting with people and not even thinking about race is how it works. 95% of the time. In the background of your comments, though, is in my view a failure to

1:57:18recognize the very serious problem, which is, wokeism is real. It is the ideology of the ruling elites. How you're treated from the time you're a little kid for school through your career is colored by race. That's not because people have accepted my ideas. That's because they've accepted the idea, the woke idea that everybody is on average the same and disparities are evidence. If not proof of injustice, we hear about it constantly. This is the constant theme of the humanities, of the social sciences. It's an obsession, the national obsession. And the same thing is true in Western Europe and other countries, anglophone countries. If it were just everyone playing

1:58:19basketball together and going to all of what's it called? The olive tree. The olive tree. And everyone could be happy and we don't have to talk about it, then I wouldn't talk about it. But that's not where we are. There is an issue. That's why we have to face these facts. I would just say, and I'll steep my engineer, he's an affirmative action hire, by the way. That you should, I just wish, not you should, I don't presume to tell you what to do, but I just feel like it would be the right thing to do to separate yourself from these people who are obviously fueled not by the same gasoline that you are. These people like Jared Taylor and this guy is zero whatever that was. These people are, they're out to, for something else, to create something else in the world. By the way, I believe zero contradictions is not white. Whatever. I don't think he's black.

1:59:24I don't believe so. I forget. Steven, I just want to go on record. I don't know if this is woke or not, but these tests that we're basing off of like IQ in general, like it were created at a time to like establish a discriminating factor, like quickly used for sterilization, immigration, like that. And wouldn't you, I mean, like if, if, if multiple races were involved in a consensus of creating the IQ test, don't you think they would have the questioning line up with more of the cultural wisdom they're passing down themselves? You don't think that's a factor? Why, why, why do East Asians and the United States Indians score higher on these tests than the white people who made the tests? People from a completely different cultural background. Yes, Steven. Sure. Sure. I'd say conformity. I think, yeah, if we're, if we're saying it's the most

2:00:30valuable trait, we're saying it's most probably a trait to us now. So if you create the filters to accelerate the things that are the most valuable to those in a place of authority then, and now we're stuck with that since I'm looking at 1800s, like Steven, just the thing. And then, I mean, we're just shooting the shit. But to me, there's two ways, there's two conversations. Both of them are, are interesting conversation. One is to get into a conversation, challenging, refuting, scrutinizing the data. And I'm not really qualified to do that. And I chose not to do that. And then there's another conversation and say, okay, let's assume, arguably, that this data is for the most part, you don't have to say it's 100% correct, but you think it's, the picture that it tells is a picture that we have to deal with. What is the best way to react to that situation? And this conversation that we had is really about my disagreement about

2:01:33what is the best way as a nation to react to the worst case scenario if it's true. And that's that. Maybe we have another conversation. I'm sure a conference is an expert on it about the actual data, but I'll tell you, Steven, you don't want to walk into a buzzsaw. Let me, yeah, standardized testing is, I don't know, I have my issues with that. Just in general, it seems like we're lying on an old test. Because the problem with this data, as I understand it, is that though many of us still feel there's something about our experience with the world, which makes us really have an intuition that it's something not quite right here. The data itself is just, I mean, you've never seen this movie three identical strangers. We've talked about it like these three kids raised completely apart and they're exactly the same and all there. It's not just their IQ, it's their personality traits and their mental equanimity and

2:02:35then all kinds of stuff. And we see this over and over and over again. And you have kids. You see it in your kids. My kid, my kid, Manny, he was talking like nine months and in sentences at 14 months and this kid is a fucking scholar. Like, you know, this is not a coincidence. I didn't raise him in any way. Your mic's off. No, you're, you're mic. You mute me. I said, yeah, he's a scholar. He takes after your wife. Yeah, it takes after my wife. Yeah, like this is, this is, this is reality. And, and gene pulls our realities. And, now, I don't know, races are shorthand for gene pulls because Jews are white. And we're not the same gene, gene pool is white people. And I know, I mean, I imagine there's certain parts of confidence where people of the same race didn't see each other for thousands of years. I don't, I don't know how it all goes together. But it's all and maybe we shouldn't have that conversation

2:03:36again because I find it all very interesting. I don't, I give you another last word. Go ahead. Well, just to, you'll agree with everything I'm saying. To address the point about IQ test. So the myth is that IQ test asks you, you know, how do you pair, does Merlot go with, with Macarole or does, or does it Cabernet? And what's the way, what's the address of the country club? And you ask people a bunch of questions like this and then give them an IQ score. In fact, IQ tests are not like that at all. It's asking you to rotate a shape to, to, it gives you an example of a shape and then for pictures of a shape and which one is the same as the first one, but just rotated in different positions. And the Jews, Jews are worse at that one,

2:04:38right? We're not as good. We're actually worse at this. That's why Jackie Mason has a bit about what happens when you give Jews direct directions compared to Gentiles. As you, as you may know. Imagine how smart the Jews must be at the other tasks to still score so highly despite their deficit in spatial relations. Jews are good at simple manipulation, but not spatial. So, wow. Jews are awesome. Or you ask people, you give people numbers. So I give you a bunch of numbers, one, three, seven, eight, and I ask you to repeat the numbers or to repeat them in reverse order. Something like that. So, yes, you do need to come from a certain cultural background to understand the concept of test taking. You have to know what numbers are. You have to understand what there are certain things that you have to understand. But it's not like asking, these are things that

2:05:43base the kind of knowledge that's required to take IQ tests is pretty basic that basically everyone has been exposed to. But what if this, I mean, I don't want to give this zero-contradition guy any credit, but just he talks about genes first. What were they sitting still and behavior and things like this? What if it's not intelligence at all, just like, you know, certain people can't just sit still and focus as long as other people to take in a whole IQ test. And then they're actually just as smart, but you know, they have other things which would make it harder for them to score as well on a test. Well, as I mentioned before, there are some people who are just bad at test taking for various reasons. And so they're low-score wouldn't reflect their potential. But those genes were very among individuals. I taught the SAT prep for a while. And what I

2:06:43realized is most people just had an excess anxiety of they're supposed to be bad at for more they came from. And all we did was teach them how to take the test. We didn't teach them anything. I wanted to experience I had. We're finished here. So, you know, I'm 64 is all done and it's amazing how my mind is definitely not what it used to be. And not everybody in my age feels this way what most people do. But anyway, when I took my, I took the LSA T. Now I was always a pretty good test taker. You know, I did it scored like, you know, 93 or 94th percent on most things. It wasn't like a serious student. But and then I take the LSA T and the day before or two days before the LSA T, I take a practice test. It's supposed to be under test conditions. And I got so frustrated during this practice test that I left in the middle of the test as I have fuck it, whatever I get I get.

2:07:44And then two days later, I took the test and I sat down in actual test conditions. And I'm telling you it was like the matrix time slowed down. I can remember it to this day. This is 37, 40 years ago. I got too wrong on that test. One of them I changed just as I was about to leave the door. The original answer was the right answer. And I don't know why the fuck I changed it. I knew when I left I shouldn't have changed it. But it was it was such a weird answer. I didn't believe it. So I would have gotten just one wrong. Now you know, that's this is top 10th of 1% on the LSA T. I got into every law school I put it based on this not purely an LSA T. But there's something about that experience I had which made me wary of test results because it wasn't a false positive because somehow it was real. It wasn't like I got lucky. But somehow I got myself into the right headspace of concentration and focus that I'm seldom able to get. But if I had just gotten that score that I was on about to

2:08:51get two days earlier with the actual test, you know, actually, I don't know if I would have got a terrible score. Maybe I would have gotten a 39 or 40 now instead of 45. You know, that and that's that's a real thing I experienced. And I can't be the only one. Like I understand it's not I can't generalize it to everybody like I used to joke about whether torture works. I say listen, I know people say torture doesn't work. But I know that if they tortured me, I tell them what they want to know. And I can't be the only one. Right. Like as my proof that torture must work sometimes. And I feel like there's got to be a lot of times that these tests are erratic and there's false positives and false negatives. And we have to concern ourselves with rooting out the false negatives because these are our citizens. So go ahead. But don't don't determine somebody's life on the basis of one test. I'll give them continued to give them chances to prove themselves or to develop like a

2:09:53genetic test. You can start with a genetic test. But ultimately you should people should be judged by their performance, not by a test. The test. Oh, it was out of 48. I got a 47. Sorry, guys. Sorry. Sorry. It's a useful tool for identifying people who are statistically more likely to be successful in certain domains. Yeah. If somebody else proves to be more successful, then don't say, well, they can't be true because the tests said otherwise. Look at look at the evidence. The you can't accept everybody to law school. You can't accept everyone to the top law school. Right. So how do you choose who to accept? In order to be a lawyer, to be a serious lawyer, you have to be able to reason at a very abstract level. You have to understand difficult verbal concepts. It requires intelligence. And who are you going to admit? Somebody who scored well on the test of

2:10:56verbal reasoning, which is exactly what we want from lawyers or somebody who got a more middleing score or somebody who got a low score. Ideally, we would test everybody and give everybody, let everybody have a 20 year career as a lawyer and see who was one of the most cases. And we would admit them to law school. But that's not the point of the admissions process is to identify people's potential. So you use the best tool at your disposal. That is practical. And that is, you know, this was always my analogy was about genetics. It's that, you know, you have two seeds for trees and within the genetics of these seeds, one is the genes to be very tall tree and one is to be a less tall tree. And that's it. Like that's that you can't change that. But if you

2:11:57if you don't, if you give the tall tree one not enough sunlight and not enough water, he will grow to be a short tree. And he might even be shorter than the tree that was destined to be shorter than here. So so our task as a country is to make sure that all our children are getting all the sunlight and all the nutrition in their soil that they need to get so we can be confident that they're reaching their potential. And I don't think there's any consensus that that's what's going on yet. And until we there is that consensus, I think this is a very strong argument that doesn't require any look at hereditaryanism. And it's it's it's it's a it's a in it's not a concession to the woke. He's saying, listen, we need to take care of our children. There's too many children growing up in in bad environments. And let's let's put our attention to that. And there'll

2:13:01be other benefits we can't even imagine from that. I was I was just about to say, but we finally found something we totally agree on and we can end on that note. Although at the end, you said we need to reach a consensus that everyone has is experiencing conditions that will allow them to reach their potential. I mean, my my concern is that as long as there are disparities, the mere fact that there are disparities will be taken as proof. Yes. Of the fact that some people do not have the have not experienced the conditions to achieve their potential. And then certain people will be blamed for that. And we're back to another great awakening. Maybe, but but as people with their own eyes see less and less evidence of different environments. And maybe at the same time, those disparities are less pronounced somehow. Then as I said, you know, Peeley put a little Vaseline

2:14:02over the lens and everybody moves on. You know, these these issues come around. And but, you know, I don't know. It's it's it's it's it's there's no there's no perfect answer. Like there's just no perfect. It's not like if your way succeeds, everybody's just going to accept it. There's going to be 35 40 50. I don't know what percent of the population that's going to stubbornly adhere to these views anyway. It's still going to be dissension. All right, sir. Listen, I, I don't know what to say. You kind of disarmed me at the end here. I do have I am repelled by some of the stuff that you've written or or in the way that you don't stand up to the people that think should be your natural enemy. But I am being honest when I say I I do believe you when you say you don't carry any hatred on your heart. It could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like you do. So I don't I mean that's as honest as I can be. I don't know. Just just quite an article blasting these people

2:15:10and they're and they're fucking I've written plenty of articles. Calling people on the right, people who I call racist in a bad way racist since racist usually just means people who acknowledge that there are group differences. Maybe the reason that you could you point this out to maybe the reason that the liberals score higher on IQ tests despite the fact that the right wing data in your opinion is is you know irrefutable almost is because the liberals kind of take my view is like you know what there's there's other things this is this cure is worse than disease. Well I showed I looked at the general social survey which asks a representative sample of Americans of variety of questions and gives them an abbreviated IQ test. One of the questions is do you attribute racial disparities to natural differences? So this is what I see as the correct view. So basically are you a herediterian? And people who say that they are herediterians

2:16:16have the lowest IQ scores. Very low IQ scores. So yeah but you clearly I've I've well I I like maybe I like to think I'm an exception but statistically on average herediterians have low IQs. I've said this openly and I've said that herediterianism tends to attract people of low cognitive ability and emotionally disturbed people. I've said all this this was in why we need to my first substack essay which is called why we need to talk about the rights stupidity problem. Yeah. All right going once going twice. All right you know this is this is the podcast where people usually come for the last 30 seconds of their five minutes of fame. So our 15 minutes and 15 minutes of fame. So I know you've been on quite a ride. I don't know where this leaves you but it was it was this has been a

2:17:20very good conversation and since I came at you very hard I appreciate that you didn't walk off or anything so thank you sir. They think they think conference everybody. I had no temptation to do that. Madam and quitting. I mean does it seem normal to you that I have to do in the show for 10 something you 10 plus years with me. He did not call me sit down with me say hey can we get some coffee that he just shot off a a a cryptic email and that's that does that seem normal. I mean do you want like a real answer or do you think if I wanted him to stop doing the show that's where I would have done it. No no of course not. No but like I think that you should the tube you should sit down and have a conversation I think it's insane to I mean be having this conversation right now. I mean is it I don't know quirky I mean it's a dance so I don't hold down to like the same

2:18:27sort of social standards more is. Yeah I mean more is maybe because I don't think he's thinking about it in that same way. Yeah I think the two of you should sit down like I think the three of us should sit down I think that that would be like and and do some to come back. I mean whatever it is I don't know I mean I love Dan I know you love Dan too. I I used to. Yeah. But I think that you know he brought up a point that bothers him which I think if you which was which that he feels like he doesn't have like a place to shine on the podcast. All right well you know what I don't don't I'm not going to have an argument about this don't like put me in a position where I'm now like he's not here so like I'm sort of forced into this corner of by the nature of like you're like triangulating this so that like I have to state his position like I'm not going to do that I'm saying that like I do think that there's a better more productive

2:19:28way to do this and we should probably sit down was it is it like convincing him to come back I mean I don't know. Why don't you guys interview comedians what you and Dan do a show interview comedians. Yeah it's really fun. They can tell their funny story. Yeah and we like it when you're here too because it but you were doing then you stopped. Yeah because because of you I didn't stop it what will you show up. Will you come now it was supposed to be something that I didn't have to show up to when you guys were going to do it and then you feel a lot because we like it and he likes it when you show up. Yeah I'm sure he does because but but but you say that you say that wait there's something wrong. Well I'm sure he does like that's some sweet that's bad because he can just stop talking when he's out of things to talk about and I'd have to not have to carry the burden of moving the show along. Well isn't that the fucking point of doing a podcast with other people? Just saying you guys can interview comedians and he could shine and I'll come sometimes. Well I think that if you commit to coming sometimes that there might be something there. Depends on the comedian. I don't really like you know like to me this is way more interesting than

2:20:32I way rather argue with their white nationalist then you know Keith Robinson. Yeah I mean it's a different show and also like this guy is not really like my wheelhouse I don't you know it's this guy yeah I mean I don't know what oh Steven what did you what did you think Steven wait the book the bookshelves holy crap what what the fuck was with those bookshelves like that was so weird he reads kimbals that's I mean put a plant on it bro like I don't think this is actually the thing to to respond about him. It is a hundred percent the thing there is something so profound about a philosopher that doesn't have any books behind him. Listen if I I'm principle if I started if I were if I were his age given my reading habits yeah I would have barely any books I buy everything on the Kindle okay listen to me but no your bookshelves are filled with pictures

2:21:33so no your bookshelves are filled with books. What are you talking? Those are my father's books. Listen to me all I'm saying is that that whole point about like the intelligent thing is not like that does not hold water it doesn't I mean you can make fun of me or whatever but I studied philosophy and I'm actually much smarter than I play on the show um and I mean it's a ridiculous thing to say and I don't know about all the rest of the shit um but anyway I do think that we should have a conversation with Dan and I do think that you handled that interview very well. Oh Steven what do you think? Do you think soft skills like compassion or self-reflection are a sign of intelligence of course no are they're not tested for you don't of course they are capacity for emotional there is no question that the Nazis aggregate were high IQ people so what so so what but that's not the question though question is whether uh soft skills are a

2:22:35sign of intelligence yeah well I mean are nurses or like hospice nurses are they intelligent do do they are they valuable I mean valuable is another question I know hospice nurses is probably not the brightest profession oh my compared to like neurosurgeons no but is there a different are there different kinds of intelligence like there is something called emotional intelligence right which I would say you probably is not your strong suit I like your point about that the L stats it being less scared by some practice or exposure is big yeah that was good wait stop for a second emotional intelligence like that's a different kind of intelligence right it's a euphemism I mean it's not a euphemism it's not a euphemism I'll tell you why it is yes it's there's a it's a there's a skill of uh there are personality slices that that that term refers to

2:23:40which are like how will you read other people how well do you understand how people are going to react to what you say uh discretion all all kinds of able to read faces able to read yes and they are intelligences okay but they really have nothing to do with the Manhattan project I like like he's he's he's talking about the there's there's a certain type of intelligence which moves the human race forward and this is really the result of top 10th top 100th of 1% top thousand to 1% people and by the way I don't I don't know that his answer you weren't here was actually candid with me when I asked him are you afraid of diluting the human race down to the to the to the to the wrestling to the mean I think because he didn't say no right Steven he didn't say no I agree he just didn't want to say that I think that's he said the unique intelligence is I I mean this guy got a perfect score on his GRE he's a very smart guy and he isn't and he has that

2:24:44kind of um somebody was some article in Kuala that describes him as you know he I should have brought it up he where he he said I you know I my whole life I could never follow rules like you know he doesn't have the emotional intelligence and by his own admission and I don't think he gives a shit so in his in his mind he's like yeah it's good for the human race to have super smart groups of people but I'm saying we should preserve that but I'm saying that there are different kinds of super smart people I understand that like rocket scientists and like neurosurgeons have and people who only get one thing wrong on their LSA T-test have a per two things wrong one of one of the might just one of them I I changed wrong did you know when you walked out of there that you got a perfect a near perfect score 100 percent that's interesting I think that I want but it was the only experience I ever had like it in my life like I walked out of this is like I said time slow down I knew every it was it was it was bizarre it was weird I mean it's not that surprising because

2:25:51it's you and how well I know you but putting that aside for a second I think that like you're there's book smart and there's street smart right like is that fair yeah like is it con man smart yes of course he is it's a bank robber smart is a serial killer smart like the way that Nathan is talking is like you know there's this one thing and this is the most important thing and everything else is not as valuable as that and I I really reject that I don't blame you ah ah good