Interview Only w/ Jennifer Palmieri - How Can Democrats Win In The South?

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. This episode of the Chuck Todd Cast is brought to you by chapter. Now almost everything you hear about Medicare is somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere. And you're skeptical of that. And as you should be, I get it. I mean, there's a federal lawsuit going on right now over exactly this. Companies that branded themselves as unbiased while allegedly pointing people toward whatever would pay them the most as some sort of broker. So if your default is to just trust everyone in this space, honestly, I get it. I'm a bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole reason I want to tell you about chapter. They're independent Medicare advisors whose entire model is that their advisors are not paid to push anyone plan. They're just trying to help. Yes, there's compensation that goes with it, but it's across the board is what they're trying to do. At the end of the day, they're advocating for you. They're not the insurance companies themselves. They're an actual person who actually goes through your doctors, your prescriptions, your needs,

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2:06Point it at your own plan for 20 minutes. It's free. There's no pressure and then call chapter today at 980-734-3985. As I was saying to my next guest when we were off camera, there are like five people I actually like that I've met in Washington over the years. And this and she is one of them. It's Jennifer Paul Mary. And Jennifer and I go back to the 20th century. I guess it's probably the best way to describe it. And you know, we don't want to talk about age or anything, but we go back to the 20th century. Hotline, hotline, hotline, I'm a, I'm a cub hotline person. You're you're like, you know, on the middle rungs, right, of the press world back then at the Clinton White House. Is that the best? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, that's her to say. Yeah, lower in the middle. And and Jen is one of these people. We grew up, you know, our pre professionally grew up together.

3:06And I think every generation of reporters and sources, you know, every every sort of 10 years, there's versions of this. And I think it's safe to say that Jen and I experiences overlap in a variety of ways, variety of presidential terms and a variety of mediums. I mean, she jumped, you jumped into the sort of the documentary new space and this media space for I did. Now I've jumped in with two feet. You've got a terrific new podcast series documentary series. You know, I don't care what we name these things anymore. Yeah. Right. Like, you know, the platforms to me are relevant. It's, it's wherever you want to find this stuff. You're going to be able to find it. She's executive producer of long play. And this really is sort of. Well, you tell me you're reimagining. Yeah. You're trying to it is. It is something that look a lot of us political handicappers have been saying that essentially. And we've seen this culturally, you know, first, frankly, it happened with college football.

4:06It went north. Yeah. I school recruiting. We love talking about that. Yeah. Right. And it's been this slow thing. And now America's presidential elections used to go through the Midwest. And increasingly, they're going to go through the Sunbelt. I mean, and, yeah. And I've made this argument that basically if you, if you look from Arizona to Georgia, you see that the, the presidency, you have Senate control. So it's politics. It's culture. It's everything. And here's what this feels like to me. This feels like your way of like, Hey, Northeastern liberals, the map has changed. Get to know the South and stop mocking it. Is that fair? That is fair. Also, hey, people in LA. Yeah. You know, like that it is, you know, so it's, I have always felt so like at the point, the point of the show is to focus on the South. And that's why it's called long play is because like, first of all, our show, it's a, you know, it's a, it's a audio podcast. It's also YouTube. It's a stand production company that did the circus.

5:06So it's very well. Yeah, it's very well done. But we have the point is that it's a long play in the South in terms of not just like, not just like, oh, Democrats, you know, let's have Democrats win in the South. But just to get civic reengagement, because it's been such one party rule, you know, like Tennessee, for example, is often at the bottom 50 out of 50 in terms of voter participation. Like Tennessee, it's a major state, you know, Nashville's there. One of, you know, one of the fastest growing cities in the country. And there's just, you know, there's one party rule, you know, in somebody in Mississippi, Alabama, you know, sort of like cross the board. So it's like, and I've always felt because I was born there. And I moved around a lot. And I think this has helped me. Um, last she took in politics is that I'm pretty observant because I've had some, you know, I all sides, I moved every couple of years. So just to figure out how you fit in and the South really stuck with me. And it really bothered me. You know, I worked for a Southern governor who became president of states, right?

6:08I think our best, you know, Obama's sort of an exception to this, but the best Democratic politicians comes from red states, you know, people who were used to have me to make an argument to the full spectrum of political views. And that it really bothered me that we just kind of rode off this entire road. It's an entire region like it wasn't even there, let alone moral arguments of that. It's some of the poor states in the country and it's some of the states with the highest black population. But now, you know, it's like now it's just like, hey, if you want to survive, if you want to win the presidency, like maybe you can win the presidency in 2028 with winning one or two states in the South, but going forward with the way the population is growing and the census and how Congress and the United States are going to work. You have to win multiple states in this out. Look, it is tempting to say to play the, I told you so game and not to you, but sort of to generally about this because frankly, there's certainly, there's certainly, I have felt, I don't want to call it a disdain in Democratic circles about the South.

7:13And I don't mean all Democratic circles. I mean, really in the campaign political set and part of it is just what I call geographic bias, right? The Aselec order. Yes. I just think that there is just, there is a two dimensional picture of the South that's painted to a bunch of people that just read the New York Times. And I know I'm, I'm being a little broad brush here, but not too much. And it, it, it, it, it, because you know, you see it in just sort of, well, I'll give you an example. And this is in a Southern state because the drives me crazy. It's technically a border state and it's Kentucky. But I remember, remember during Obamacare because who doesn't remember if you were in the middle of that PR. That's stupid. And if you once told me you should say, you know, you should see the president. He goes, Kentucky. Kentucky. Like it was the last one. But I think about that. And it was just think about that preconceived notion that was planted in his head.

8:16Right. How can Kentucky do so well with a website to sign up people for healthcare? Yeah. And it was just like, wow, see, there's a lot of inputs that were going into Obamas brain by other people. Brock Obama. Even. Hey, right. That were stereotyping the South that probably arguably delayed a lot of democratic interest groups, democratic money, social, cultural engagement in the South. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that is, I think that is correct. And I, you know, I wasn't, I had not been back to, I'm not back to Mississippi. I was going to be sort of going back like in 2017, but I had not been to, you know, other than going to New Orleans and not been to Mississippi or Alabama. You know, Florida and Georgia, yes, but not the, not like the deep South for a long time. And it's easy to think that there, that it is, that it's a monolith. And it's just not at all, you know, there are, there's like a, do you know the bitter Southerner?

9:21Are you fan of the bitter Southerner? Do you know that magazine? I think, I think it'll be a secret into it. It's a great magazine made by three people from Georgia. They're out of Athens. And they were bitter because the South, it sort of started as that they were bitter because the South, there was a list of like the 50 best cocktail bars in America. And there was not one of them in the South listed. This was a while ago, right? Because you can't imagine that happening now, but it was 14 years ago. And there were also bitter that the South is portrayed as entirely conservative, you know, a monolith. And so they made this, they won the National Magazine Award last year for general excellence. I mean, that's like how good they are. But it was like, I started to look at it. It was like, it's just like a reminder. There are, there are different, there are different viewpoints everywhere and like, and, and happening in the South. And it is, you know, and it feels now like the, we did six weeks on the road, six Southern states, Texas, Georgia. North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee and Mississippi. And it's like the, there's so much that's happening on the Republican side of like a paragraph, right?

10:25That's just like happening everywhere, right? But it does feel like that era is running out of road. And there is, I mean, Georgia's an interesting thing to talk about is in some special case. Texas is a special case too, but the other states, it feels like something struggling to be reborn. If, if there was like, it's got to be organic. It's got to be people from that state, not people coming into that state. But they could use money and resources and attention. That could really change, you know, not hard to win a Senate race in Mississippi. Not a lot of money, not a lot of voters, you know, a little attention go a long way. And I, and here we go again, where once again, the National Party, National Money, National Political Figures are talking the talk about Mississippi and doing any walking. I think I've made there it is. I look at this Mississippi race as a such a missed opportunity. I went off on a rant about this in my Thursday episode last week.

11:29It about how there's what 25 different people wanting to run for president in 2028, right? And then none of it, you know, a good way to stand out. Just decide, you know what, I'm going to triple down on one state. And I'm going to marshal all of my donor networks, all of my energy into turning Mississippi into a competitive state. I know the National Party has other priorities. I get it. So I'm going to turn my eyes and attention to this. I actually threw this idea at somebody that's running. And they pondered it and they said, I get it, you know, but, you know, it got in the way of the speaking schedule of the travels. But I want to go to North Carolina to do it. And I want to go to Texas too. Yeah. I don't want to just stop it on the Mississippi. Yeah. And yet, you know, if you end up becoming the sugar mom or daddy to a victory in Mississippi, you've just proven to me, there's three pieces of the job of being a president.

12:32One is leader of your party. Right. And that is an important one. You know, we forget that part of it. Right. One is to a communications job. Obviously you want to know you actually have a vision and all these things. But the political political leadership part of the party has actually been a huge problem for the Democrats going on a couple of decades now. Going on a couple of decades, you're putting Obama in that. So I look, I think the D I think the state of the DNC has its roots in what and how the Obama White House marginalized it. I do. But what what what president hasn't marginalized the party. The DNC. I mean, it's just like, I just know Bill Clinton took it over. There's a difference. Bill Clinton used it. Bill Clinton. He accepted it. He embraced it. That's the difference. Right. Obama enjoyed being an outsider. You're saying like Obama because the bomb did organizing for action.

13:33And I just think I mean, you know, didn't leave it. This is like a thing. This is I know we're getting off on a team. We're not going to not. Obama was good for Obama. The party of Obama. The question is, you've been for the party of the Democratic Party. Right. Like what do you think? Well, I think that it's just like it's like, I just think I mean, I know enough. I worked at the DNC. I know I know enough about how it operates. And it's a very weird. It was healthy during the Terry McCollough years. Terry McCollough years. It was healthy. But it's also it's easier to be healthy when you're in opposition. I tell that you can. Yeah. Well, it could. It has potential of being. It has potential of doing that. But you know, really it is the it's a third opposition until until they're until somebody until, you know, you know, a great presidential candidate. Here's a lot of hills and the DNC is going to reflect whoever the, you know, it was going to reflect whoever that person is. And then when that person is gone, the DNC is going to have to remake itself because it was made in the image of the president, you know, like it's just like that's just how our party system.

14:35It's it's it's like our party since it's an I don't think, but I do think that we just, you know, it was like. We don't need to talk to those people because they're not going to vote for us and we can win without them. It's like that's kind of the attitude that I feel is like really corrosive and, you know, and let's like look at what that has wrought. Look what ignoring the South has brought. Look at everything that comes out of the South that are beat abortion bills, right? That the the first one came out of the tech, the Texas state legislature with its story factor. Where did dogs originate? Where did dogs originate the state of Mississippi? Where did all the Jerry Manbrune originate? You know, that it's like now there's like legislation about contraception and being an and surrogate parents and all of this and nothing ever stays in the South. And, you know, I talked to this guy, you would love him Jerry, he's a Mr. Jeremy fast on he's the Republican caucus chair for the Texas Tennessee state legislature Republican from like kind of Gatlinburg area, great guys like Walt and us to his home,

15:41intrusive family has a mixed race son that adopted son is, you know, he go he liked not in the protrudus way, but he wants you to know that, you know, his daughter is married to a black man from a country. I think not I think Nigeria, but like very welcoming, you know, clearly not racist, right? And so that's out of his way, like is leaving office because he thinks Republicans have gone too far because they tried to pass a bill to like the children that were undocumented couldn't allow to go to public schools in Tennessee, it failed, but he was like that's when I was like it's too much. I was like, okay, representative fast on did you vote to carve up Memphis into three districts? Well, yeah. Well, why is it like what's the politics and you're like well, but you just told me that you're going to leave politics because your party has become too extreme and why are you giving it more power and he was like, well, you know, and I was like, this is what Lamar Alexander weren't about and he was like, well, he has a good point, you know, there's just not there's no, there's no bush back at all, there's no, there's just no,

16:46there's no opposition and it's just like this is when things die and so like Tennessee is doing terrible and health care and Tennessee is doing terrible and it's education, you know, it's like so it's not just about when it's about like having the state being more having that region be more vibrant if that region, that region is more vibrant in terms of civic engagement and people voting and the schools improving the way miss out on to the way Mississippi and Alabama have sought to improve their schools like that's going to be good for the whole country and that's going to and if there is a more, you know, ten north Carolina just one seat away from breaking the super majority in the Senate and then, you know, in the house it's one seat away from getting to super majority, but it's like there's a battle right now in these state legislatures and the style that matters so much. Not just to the south, but to like the whole country because that is the test kitchen for all of the all of these conservative, you know, whether it's like socially conservative legislation to paragraphs.

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19:57And I want to start with the black belt. Yeah. Yeah. And rural blacks. What I would I have what's interesting to me is when you look at North Carolina. Yeah. The one time Democrats carried it in this century was in 08. And what makes 08 unique is not Barack Obama at the top of the ticket that year. And what's actually made with Carolina unique was it was an important primary in May of that election year. And there was this competition between Obama and Clinton and Indiana. Think about that primary date. And it's to me such a reminder of something. So Indiana and North Carolina are going to be. They were perceptionally important, right? They didn't really. Yes. Right. It didn't really wasn't really going to change the trajectory. But sort of if you were going to make the case of the super delegates.

20:57Boy, Obama had to split like he couldn't afford to get swept there. And that was the concern. And yet he thought, all right, we better put some pressure on her in Indiana. And she wanted to put some pressure on him in North Carolina. Because sometimes he was going to win North Carolina. She was going to win in the end. That ended up that way. But boy was Indian a super close and it ended up being a bit of a of a bruise for her. But here's what happened in November. Democrats carried both states. Yeah. Right. And I think I know the answer because there was a necessity for both campaigns to campaign in parts of those two states that they probably never would have in any other year. Yeah. And that translated to a better performance. And I look at that example more than any other. As simply if you show up, you do some groundwork. It does pay dividends down the road. And I use the North Carolina thing specifically because there's some majority black rural counties at the border of North and South Carolina.

21:59That essentially powered Obama's victory in November of that year. And he came up short in 12 and it was in those counties. And it was a turnout issue. Yeah. And it was because he didn't have to campaign there that often in 2012. And when he did he did it via Charlotte or, you know, we did it sort of the big way. Right. You sure we have the convention in Charlotte. We had. Yeah. So I go to, and that's why I think about this issue of rural blacks. Yeah. It is the problem. It's sort of both the answer and the problem in South Carolina and Mississippi two states that should be more competitive. If you just look at the demographic, but they're not. So what do you learn? So this is and I talked to, you know, we talked to Roy Cooper's because I came from Georgia and then we went into North Carolina talking to Roy Cooper's team. And the, you know, just for my people, the former governor who's running for a Senate there. And they're, you know, they're a little. Sometimes people in North Carolina are a little defensive Democrats are about have or not Georgia. And all the reasons why they're different from Georgia.

23:02It's like, well, we're different in our suburbs. The Atlanta suburbs. There's no Atlanta. There's no Atlanta. And when we in Charlotte and Raleigh aren't that and the suburbs aren't that. And they always go on to say that the rural areas and North Carolina have just gotten. They have gotten more conservative in the last 20 years. And it's basically it's been basically it's been 20 years since Brock Obama was elected. And that the and then I talked to some of the state legislators that represent those kind of county that you're talking about. And they said. Our areas have gotten more conservative in colliding black voters. And there's no way to reach them. Because they're just, you know, there is like because they watched that they watch anything. It's been Fox News. There's just been every local diner, right? Like that sort of the crowd noise, whatever the background noise. And it's just it has been like a major problem with Carolina. The ability to like breakthrough and reach and like and reach these voters. And if you're not and we should assume.

24:02And we should assume we should assume this is probably a very similar experience in rural South Carolina too, right? Yeah, right. I think even more pronounced in rural South Carolina, you know, it's like it's like it has it has fewer it has less of the metropolitan areas that they do and in North Carolina. But what's interesting about. What's interesting about North Carolina or about South Carolina is how much it's changing. It's the fastest growing state in the entire country. Now a lot of the people that are moving there are older and they can be more, you know, people also say with them, he's going to do a state that means it's coming more blues about. Not always, not always. That isn't what's happening. And then in the national sub and national suburbs. It's all happening. Yeah, it's like so that's not necessarily what's happening in South Carolina, but it is, but people are moving there from out of state. And I do feel like it makes South Carolina a little more of a jump all. The thing that was interesting about Mississippi. Well, like, first of all, Georgia, like, was fascinating about Georgia is like this is sort of obvious to say, but it's not something I think people think about and day to day politics is just that the decisions that were made 60 years ago in that state.

25:16Have a huge impact on this politics today. So people like Mayor Hertzfield, who was white mayor and the end of Jim Crow beginning the civil rights era of Atlanta and decided Atlanta is going to be the city too busy to hate. We're just we're too busy. And it's like racism is bad for business. And they wanted to have there's a lot of big black population. They wanted to have a sustainable black middle class. That was part of the theories to why are still Jackson, Maynard Jackson, the next mayor first black mayor of Atlanta. As as big as it is to sustain a middle class and Atlanta in it worked and you had the it's, you know, every civil rights leader, you know, is either from Atlanta or came through there, but like, and not really. And I think Democrats there, you know, I think it's why Rafael Warlock and John Ossoff are so good is you got to think really deeply about who you are, what you're for and what you are even as going to be if you're going to convince independence and Republicans and Georgia to vote for you.

26:16And they like both of them have that civil rights history very much in their present mind, you know, John Ossoff talks about John Lewis his mentor would tell him remind him the black Jewish alliance to the civil rights era and how important that is and how symbolic and important it is that there's now. John Ossoff, you know, the Jewish center and a black center representing this state and it's like, and then of course you had probably 15 years ago now people like CC Abrams make the move to organized or to outside of the party structure, which is often, you know, either you get like a rock star who wants to organize the party within like Benwick, and Wisconsin or you get somebody who's like, I'm going to do some outside of it. And it's like that is just people deciding that they're going to do things differently and it matters. That's starting to happen in Mississippi. There is the Charles Taylor is ahead of the end of the CCP there. He was in data. He was in like normal data, you know, analytic politics and stuff that you and I don't love as much as the just you know people who, you know,

27:24politicians that are just good at this and get it. And he's been making the argument for a long time like Mississippi is totally winnable and like here are the numbers and this is wine, it's not a pipe dream and a 5% more black voters turn out and normally doing a midterm and we get 5% more white voters to vote Democratic, you know, Scott home becomes the next Democratic center for the state of Mississippi. And they've done a lot of work. There's a group called the Mississippi black women's roundtable super cool, not quite like STC Abrams like more they're more like ladder of engagement, they meet women who need help like child care, help with their utility bills and they let them know, hey, you have a voice and you should like make sure the state legislature knows about and they collect stories to go to the legislature to be like, we need paid leave, we need child care and they've had success. But then they're also getting these women trained to campaign to be candidates themselves like that. And it's like it's interesting somebody in Mississippi today, I said, who's making a difference and she pointed to this group and she said they're challenging the status quo.

28:31And I took that to mean something more than the Republicans. I took that to mean their challenging kind of old school, the degree to which there's Democratic fixtures in Mississippi, they're like challenging that something new coming from it. So like I do like I totally believe in like it's a team state, a little bit of money for Scott Colombe and he's a good candidate, by the way, he's like engaging. He's got a good story like it's a good specific story as well with this senator, right? Yeah, with the blue slip business not to get into our case and business here. But the point is is that like it was a good recruit. And I just find, you know, I want to tell Democratic leaders like, you know, you just had the gutting of the voting rights act, that should be motivation enough to put Mississippi in the center of your focus, not as a nice to have if we find extra money in the couch cushions.

29:32Yeah, I just, you know, this is what made is looking not great. And this is like what this is what Charles Taylor from the end of it seems to be in the city that said to me, it's like we're going to drop what like a hundred million dollars to lose a Senate race in May. Look at you. You're already I think I don't know. I think the, I mean, he's like, I'm saying what they are saying, right? And he's like, it's an interesting. It's an interest. It feels a little racist. Like why are you? Why are you million dollars in Maine? Still like it is the hundred million going to be the difference, right? We, we, you know, that's probably the best way it's like maybe 50 million will still put give you the same chances about a 40 to 45% chance of winning. And you know, national environment carries you, but you need more infrastructure like a dollar goes much further in Mississippi at the moment. Then a dollar wouldn't make or Alabama, you know, to and I talked a lot. I saw Doug Jones a couple months ago when I was in the dope in Alabama. I was interviewing and for a clean work for the Children's Defense Fund in the Alabama.

30:36Oh, it's got the, it's the world's largest, I think, a peanut exposition that you can have there. Okay. But they will analytic you to death about how winnable their races. And it does seem as if national donors are like cricket with them. Yeah, I feel what it also, I think if that was a Senate race, it would be different to right. You know, that's like part that's that's that is part of it. That's another blind spot for the party sometimes is sometimes not not realizing how important winning a governorship is sometimes more important to a long term party building than a senator. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just and it's just like I'm a little bit more Cooper the exposure of a democratic. I mean that guy that guy's literally been in office for 40 years. You just you and over which you just wrote that that's the attack add on him. He's been in office for 40 years, which is, you know, you're right. Which is why he's going to win. And it's as big as vulnerability. That's the idea. You can't get because people know who he is. And you can't pigeonhole him as a certain kind of Democrat because they know who they know who you should see that.

31:38That's a totally go off off region here. But I saw the most recent attack ads on shared brown. Or they're no longer trying to say he's a liberal. They're trying to say, well, the party's not what he, you know, they're sort of acknowledging he's not. He's not like. Right. We know he's not like them, but he'll go along with them. Like that's the hit. And you're like, oh, that's that's that's interesting. That's revealing. That's revealing. It told me that they know that that he's been around so long that he has his own identity. And so they couldn't they couldn't fuse a new identity on to him. Yeah. So yeah, they need so like the right because this and this is why the state legislators are so important to because it's like that's like a breeding ground for good politicians. But in Mississippi, it is Brandon Pressley who am very close to winning the Democratic governor to be elected Democratic governor in 2023. And like the amazing thing about that was it was a Joe Biden mentor, you know, like and he almost won.

32:40So and there is an and he put money back into some a oral races for the 2025 race and was able to flip us and you know, and it's with the theory that mayors are good training ground to right. So it's like so I think it and it's not, you know, it's not that hard to. I don't think people can't parachute in so and like and money is not just any answers like you got to have committed people on the ground that want to build something. But I feel like that is there in Mississippi and that is there in Alabama Alabama is super interesting because you have Huntsville, which is another one of the fastest growing cities in the South. It's kind of like a triangle research triangle situation because of NASA there in terms of the people that are moving there from out of state. This is like highly educated. It was the last place a white Democrat. I think represented Alabama the last time they were who was who was that I think it was Kramer right. But Kramer right yeah Kramer. And then and then Birmingham, which is also sort of booming too and like and trying to and trying to organize as a as another Atlanta.

33:47So like you could see but like man it feels like the Republicans are running out of room there. There's just like it's just I didn't meet I did not lay eyes on one interesting new Republican candidate. I sat through like a three hour Republican Senate candidate forum in Charleston when the Lindsey Graham seat was and I was like, OK, this is interesting. Sure, let's see what they got. Yeah, let's see what they got and it was like just. Yeah, Norman fry right Norman fry was that he lost the Ralph Norman and the other guy was Russell fry. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Russell fry was the only one that had a little energy and you know he lost. He was the youngest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked we talked about rural blacks and you can talk about that. Yeah, the other arguably fastest growing demographic group in the in the sun belts. So I'm expanding a little larger, but it's very true in the South is Latinos. Right.

34:51And it's and it is not only Texas Georgia, but I believe just about every Southern state. It's over 10% of the population. Yeah, yeah. And that is and that does feel, you know, Texas is the most obviously like the biggest and the most pronounced. And the like Texas feels like ready to explode. Like people are not like turned blue, but just people have. I keep telling people Texas wants it's going to be purple and that's the whatever happens. Yeah, Texas has become purple, which is a big deal. It means it's a huge deal. It will be contested period. And it is and you know, we talked to a couple of Hispanic man that voted both voted for Trump that own a construction company. And they are both supporting Tallerico and Gina and I was a forget winner. And you know, they like thought the borders out of control under Biden. They're really worried about that.

35:56Like that was probably the reason why they voted for Trump also the economy. And it is just it's like that is a state where people are are feeling real effects in their own lives from like bad policies from Abbott with education, which is like insane. It's insane. Like there's like four day a week schools and like. I mean, a big percentage of schools in Texas kids are going to school four days a week because there's not money. It's unbelievable what they've done. And I do think that that loses its schools is why it loses. It is definitely I mean, and I was like in when I first got there, people were telling me and I'm like, yeah, schools. We've all say education is going to be a big issue. And then I met with somebody's woman and they are. This feels brown back. Ask doesn't it? Like in Kansas. Like what happened? And also what happened in it's interesting because it's sort of a clap back to the loud and county CRT moms. Because like one thing when I met with these women in Texas, one was like a never Trump Republican. The other two had been like Republicans. You know, they were a Christian, Evangelicals. One of the women said she voted. She said during COVID, her son was an infant and she's like, I heard they were teaching CRT.

37:02I heard that they're boys playing girls sports. They're boys and girls bathroom. And then my son got to school and none of that is true. She's like, we got to teach all history, the good stuff and the bad stuff. Like you need to know everything. I am a Christian evangelical. I do not want my son taught the tenant commandments in school. That is not why he is here. This other woman was like, my child was doing dual language and was going to graduate, and Spanish, and now he's not. And these are very conservative. And this one woman said she's like, I feel like I was duped into voting for these Magical word people. And she's like, now it's on me to like make sure that he knows. And I said, okay, so you're not going to vote for Abby, but you're not going to vote for a big. Oh, yes, we are. We are voting for Gina and we're voting for James Tallerico. We gave money to James Tallerico. And they were also, and I was like, what about Jimmy Six genders and low teeth? Right. And they're like, we're done with all that. We're done with all that. And they're just culture war stuff doesn't hit very well when you're.

38:04The culture war stuff doesn't hit well when your kid can't. It's going to school four days a week and they shut down her son's school and, you know, or your kids knock in the education that you think they need or like you can't run your construction company or people who are in the state legally who are citizens are scared to show to work because they're brown or they have a lot of honor truck, you know. So it is tennis Texas is just, and also I think Texans are just kind of different, right? It's like, don't lie to me. Do not bullshit me. Don't push me around. Like I am not going to be pushed around here. And it's like, and then I think Tallerico and you know, Hoeser are both like, you know, good. Like they're Texans, you know, Gina. So Gina comes from like a multi generational family in Texas her dad was chair of the Texas Democrats for a long time. You know, her sister is a colleague of long time colleague of mine. And like she's a she's like she knows it. This is a moderate state. Hey, this episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to you by Ethos.

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40:12Ethos is gotten 4.9 out of five stars on trust pilot with over 55 under reviews. So take 10 minutes to get covered today. Life insurance through ethos. Get your free quoted ethos.com slash Chuck. That is ethos.com slash Chuck. Application times may vary. The rates may vary. That trust pilot rating was as of August of 2026. The most interesting comment about her campaign. I got from an old friend of mine down there. San Antonio. Sort of Democrat. You probably know him. I'm going to keep him out. Keep his name out of it. Yeah. I'm going to keep him out of it. And he said, this is the first time he's, you know, worked really hard to try to get Latino Democrats elected. He said, this is the first time where I feel like a Latino candidate for office is being taken seriously by everybody and not just the Latino community. Yeah.

41:12And it's just something has, and he's like, look, I don't know if she wins or not. But boy, this hasn't felt this way since an Richards. And he was a big part of the end Richards world. Yeah. It's dating him a lot. Yeah. I think I know who it is now. Right. It's also interesting because like Texas women have a history of winning there. You know, K. Billy Hutchinson and Richards. Yeah. So, so, but Hispanic. So, but, you know, but they're, they're. Totally conservative. You know, the most, they like these Hispanic voters, but they are. And it's like, and I think a lot of them in, you know, you saw like in 20 and 24. Like, felt like they did not have a place in the Democratic party. So it's not, it's an opportunity. And in, and in, and in these races, we're having in 26. It feels like Democrats are meeting the opportunity. But like, that's a long term play. Well, and that's a, and look, I think that's a long term question about whether, you know, just like Donald Trump's going to find out, you know, Latino voters were never a part of his coalition.

42:12He was renting them. Right. You know, it was, yeah. And Democrats are going to be renting them too. Like, don't pretend that if Latinos come back and vote numbers that look Obama level, that doesn't mean their permanent members of this coalition. It just means, you know, they didn't, they, they're uncomfortable with that other one. All right. Let me get to the third big constituency group that, and I, and, and we keep you, we've actually talked about it quite a bit. And that is believers. Right. The South is. Yes. It is the part of the South that I feel like an outsider in. Okay. Even though I'm, you know, I, I'm a child of the South, but as, as I joke, the farther South, you drive in Florida, the farther North you go. Right. To visit, you have to drive North to visit the South when you live in my house. Yes. But this is the part that can feel culturally. And it, you know, I remember, look, I at least was familiar enough.

43:14I tell this story quite a bit in my first couple of years at NBC. They wanted to do a poll of South Carolina primary voters. And I said, you know what? You can't poll on Wednesday nights. And this is the bad night to poll in the South. And I'm with national reporters and news executives. And they were like, why is that? Is there a football game? Right. They didn't know I civil Wednesday church night. And they were like, well, what's that? And I said, well, for many small towns, it's just a, just, it's just a night to gather. Yeah, it's Bible study. Sometimes it's just a potluck dinner. Sometimes just, just going to hang out, just like you might hang out at your country club, just like you might hang out at your golf club, like at the polo lounge or whatever the hell, right? Like it just happens to be a gathering night on Wednesday night. They're not home. And, you know, back then, you needed to make sure people were home when you were polling them. Now, of course, there's all sorts of other methods that we're experimenting with. And whether there are any of them work anymore, I don't know. But I'm going to guess that religion is still the biggest impediment for the Democrats.

44:18I think it is. I think, I mean, I just, I think like it is, it can be a blind spot. It is not a blind spot. And it's something because we had Mitch Landr with us, you know, who's like a big Catholic as part of this. Well, the Catholic summer. It's okay to hang out in New Orleans. Sometimes the Catholics aren't allowed anywhere outside of New Orleans. So, I mean, I think that's a saying experience as a brownie and Pascagula Mississippi. You know, like with like some, you know, we went to church as like part of our brownie trip. And they were talking about like the sins of like that the priest for all alcoholics and the. Non-sparal lesbians. I'm like, what's a lesbian? What's happening? I don't know. I don't know. The Gulf Coast, the Gulf Coast actually has a lot of Catholics. You know, it's like like, yeah, try 30 miles outside the Gulf Coast and tell me how many church did you find? Even Mississippi, you know, the Gulf Coast Mississippi, you know, all the, that strip. It's like, it's work for many of settled.

45:18But it's a call to, but the further inland you go, the harder it is to find. And it is like, and it's funny because I would talk to you because I felt like it was a really important thing to address in this series is that is how. I mean, faith, family, football, it is not a college game day slogan. It is life in the South. And it is something that I have a lot of, you know, I'm, I mean, you know, this is like fascinated by football. I also did a documentary about the Buffalo Bill Stadium because I'm so fascinated by. Yeah, it's about labor that built about the Buffalo Bill State, the Buffalo Bill State on the NFL network. And it's incredible because it's like, these are the things that bond people together and give their life meaning. Okay. You want to mock that? You want to think that just after you want to think that that's not something you need to understand and address. And when I would talk to, um, different kind of politicians in the South about it.

46:23Like, also for Scott Clam or, um, Roy Cooper, some of the, they were just kind of like, what do you mean we need to talk about that like. They're just, they're just it. What you did. It's like talking about that. There's humidity in the South. What do you mean? What are we discussing? You know, they're like, yes, of course I talk about my faith, you know, it is, you know, it's just like it's a core part of the. I am and, um, it is to not. So I think the most, you know, the most successful politicians that's part of their identity and it is, you know, and I, I think it's. You know, this is these are things that bring. Like a lot of meaning and, uh, and, and, and to not. And the fact and the, there's a lot of assumptions made about Democrats that they are not people of they. And that, you know, unfairly so. But then also that they don't respect.

47:24They've been important set of plays, right? So that is. How does one fix that? If you're not a believer, you know, but we go back and forth Hillary Clinton. And it's arguably the most religious nominee the Democrats have had in my lifetime. And when I mean by that is everything I understand about her faith, I think she was. Deeply knowledgeable, deeply committed. It was. It was. You know, it was more so, you know, more regimented about it than Obama than. Biden's pretty serious about his Catholicism. So I should really. Yeah. Right. But, but it was. And yet. That never broke through. Nobody in the South. Accepted the premise that she was a woman of faith. Why do you think that? Yeah. I mean, I wrote a couple books about why that. So. Well, what did you learn? I, because you have. Look, what I learned from. Like she, she would, I mean, the, she would speak very openly about it and she would be mocked.

48:26But she would speak openly about a lot of things and be mocked. And I think that was just a lot of like the first woman to silica in her whole adult life from when she was. An undergraduate at Wellesley and she was on the cover of Life Magazine for her commencement address, right? She's always pushing the boundaries of like what we thought was acceptable for women and the roles of women should be. And so she was just always someone who was going to. Get a lot of friction when, you know, when she said, but she would speak, you know, like. She would just say all the time, like, you know, we're having a tough day and she would just be like today's the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad and she met it, you know, like she. So and it, I think that there are. You know, obviously like Senator Warnox speaks about his faith a lot. Senator Ross asks about his faith a lot. A couple has to know. By the way, you know, she is also she's been she is. But she's a couple of years, but like she knows, you know, her husband.

49:26Yeah, they don't yeah, right. It's like it if you people, I think some Democrats think that it makes up people. If you're not religious, it makes you uncomfortable, but it's just it has not to become. I think, you know, the country is hurting. It's like people are looking for purpose or looking for community. They're looking for identity a way to like bond together. And the things that in spot, you know, so there needs to be a lot of respect for people's faith. And how important that is. I mean, it's just and the South is just it's it's it's it's it is the you know, it's the first thing out of people's mouths. Faith, family football, you know, it's family may come first, but. And then you got to you have to find a way to connect with that either because it's something that you respect or it's something that you share. But I think if people don't understand that this that if you're selling yourself as a leader, that there's something deeper in you than your political beliefs that drive who you are as a person, you are not going to win the presidency. Like that doesn't mean you have to be religious, but it means there's got to be something more there like people are going to really need that in 28.

50:33You you have just explained why I I've never thought about running for offices because I I value the Constitution more than any religious text. And I know that that's a political that that would actually be a political. But that's right you, but that's right you, but that is and you believe in something near core, you know, you're not just trying to prove that something. I agree that believe, but that you're right having deep belief in whatever it is. I mean, but I could see easily somebody turning turning what I just said, he's godless. Yeah, you immediately. And that's one of those if you're hit with godless, it's it's it's it's tough to unring that bell. Yeah, yeah, it is and it's just like it's a huge, you know, it's a huge part of. It's a huge part of it like life is not easy America today. Life is not easy in the South like if you're living the South, you're more likely to have, you know, to be from an economically distressed region.

51:36And I think they, you know, so if you're in that situation, you might like pull a little deeper on what's important to you. And then be skeptical of people who come from who come from where affluent and more affluent situation and don't have that belief. And like, what do you think of me? And like, why should I trust you? You know, it's a big deal. Let me do the annoying sort of question that you might get, but like what was a what was something. That you now understand that you didn't before you began this project. Um, that well, I know there's just like things so like the things that stand out is like how hard the communication problem is like how. Is that a local news thing? Is it local news? It's local news. It's like local news is missing. It's like Democrats pushing back effectively. There's no Democrats to push back effectively. So you're not hearing from them.

52:36Just like the the echo chamber and the like, allowness of like does not hearing from Democrats like North Carolina is where that really hit home. There's a total rock star. Um, in North Carolina, the someone Sydney bat. She's the Democratic leader in the Senate. Just like you would love her. Like she swears too much. She definitely swears too much for North Carolina, but she's, you know, she's daughter Chapel Hill like she was, you know, she's a true North Carolina. Um, really savvy, really smart. Like I think they're going to turn around. I stay like to say to her around like there are like stars there that are working hard to do that. But like in the rural areas is what they say is like they're big problems. Like that is a huge problem. I did not believe in talent. I was like, I was like, I was a, I started, I started the late spring early summer as a skeptic. And you know, I've done whether it's traveling to Dallas.

53:37Now that I have a kid in college there in the state. So I'm in the state more often. Certainly, you know, spending more time in bush Republican territories, not, not Trump Republican territories. Yeah. But the old bush corner neighborhoods. But when you just look at the data, you realize Texas feels like Florida 2000, right? Texas 2026 feels like Florida 2000. You're like, Hey, we've all known it's been, it's been coming. It's been coming. It's been coming. And you know what, you know what you ended up forgetting, Jen, about Texas is you should look at the statewide results in 2018. And the full statewide results in 2022. And you realize the Democratic floor has slowly been increasing. Yeah. And the Democratic, you know, winning numbers have been going like this. Yeah. So there was always a point, you know, it's like bankruptcy, right? First it's slow than it's. Yeah. Yeah. You know, here we are. It's been, you know, Beto didn't get to 48 by himself.

54:37The entire ticket got to 45. Right? And that's what you realize. And then all of a sudden you throw in a scandal penalty that does happen to candidates like Paxton across the board. Yeah, that is a real thing. I was like, that is a real thing. It's worth for, it's worth four or five points. I mean, I've, I've put a debit to it. Yeah. When I, you know, I can, you know, her show what I can show you examples with her show Walker to Brian Kemp. I can show you Jay Jones and Abigail Spanberger. I can show you Bob Menendez there. It is, it is across the board. I'm sure it's in the board. So there's a lot of things that you can do. I mean, it is always a handful of voters that do switch that penalize. That do penalize. It's, and sometimes it's enough to flipper race. Sometimes you don't notice it like in Virginia, because it was such a blow out at the top of the ticket. But that's, it didn't mean that there was that that four to five point penalty. And then the, as competitive as Texas is, four to five point penalties. It's toast. Yeah. You're, you're, you're done. And I had heard that probably Texans might not vote for Paxton.

55:41They might just stay home or vote for Abbott, not vote for him. But then I found people that were voting for Tallerika. So it's like, it is the, I don't want to undersell how big the Democrats, like brand problem is the best Taylor Remitt, who's a very good state senator in Fort Worth. He won that he won a race that had been, he run a Senate seat. Yeah. Terrent County is where you really see it there, which is Fort Worth. I mean, I just had Abby Houston on the show. Oh, you know, she told me about it. Yeah. Yeah. She talked about Fort Worth education, bro. Yeah. Right. And it was more about frankly, because, you know, I don't know enough about Texas, because I've never had to deal with it as a swing state. And you really just wanted to understand. I felt like it was really important, you know, whether it's me learning or listeners learning. And you do see that this is, this is percolating. But I am, let me ask you this. I tell her, but he like Taylor Remitt is like, I am not part of the national party. I do not talk to them. And I do not talk to the local Democrat party.

56:41Like, that is what he says. So that's like, so it's like, there it's like, he is kind of a blanks. Like if the savvy Democrats are treating the Democratic brand, like it's a blank slate and they are going to, and they're going to like, you know, they're going to define what it is. What I think is interesting with Talariko is that Talariko is basically anything in his past that has popped up something he has said. He is not, he's like, yeah, I didn't, you know, that, that's an old thing. And like, yeah, it's he's he's he's accepting the criticism. Yeah, you're right. Yes. A lot of times, Democrats are told, no, stick to your guns. Don't abandon your principles. Right. And a lot of communications professionals would say that yet I feel like Talariko's is strengthening because he's been willing to say, yeah, what I, you know, that was. Look here, I could tell you what I meant, but you know what, I get it.

57:42I didn't use the right words, you know, right. Right. And it's like, I don't think it's like his, his experience is instructive. We'll see if he wins. I mean, he's obviously doing better than he would. Then I expected him to do given some of the past statements, right? So it's like, I mean, I got a stop by. I thought, I was like, all right, that's all I need to hear. Texas is not doing that. I'm just not going to happen. Right. I don't know that everyone could explain these things away as effective as he can because there's other ways for you to connect to that man's core and understand who he really is, right? And his faith is a big. I think, I mean, I don't know, it's like, you know, you, you take bits and pieces from everything, right? It works. It's working for him is obviously doing better because he's taking these things on. I do think that like if people are talking about it, you got to address it. You have to give yours, at least your supporters something to, you know, to understand about. Like, I'm explain it, right? Give them ammunition. Give them ammunition. Like, you know, you just, you need to do, in this same age, in particular, you need

58:43to do that. And it depends on like, what did, you know, what it, and I just think, it depends on the, you know, what, what it is. But also, I think there's something about, you know, like, do something. And I talked to, they're like, I would not want Ken Pax and as a neighbor. I would be very happy to have James Taleriko, like, growing up, you have my kids growing up next door to him. So like, there's something, you know, they're like, they're, they're pulling a lot from that guy's background. So how did you not put on a hundred pounds traveling yourself? Because the food is so, I mean, even gas station, my favorite thing that, that, that, and this is something I learned from a, from a, from a Georgian. He said, don't turn your nose up at gas station fried chicken. He said a lot of times gas station fried chickens, the best fried chicken you're going to find in accounting. The terrible thing in Oxford, you know, Oxford, Mississippi, and such great restaurants, including the grocery, you know, that's like the big thing. And I actually interviewed Wright Thompson there and we ate nothing like a, a, a, a combination, not a bombination. Here's like the biggest, like one of the biggest food guides in the South.

59:44Um, but there is a gas station in Oxford that has incredible fried chicken. Incredible biscuits and incredible fried chicken. Which is like, yeah, which is what I, yeah, which is what I lived on though, like we, that we were in, that we were in Mississippi. We did do, yeah, we did do a lot of a lot of good. I mean, it was like I'd desperate for a vegetable though. And I'm not a big vegetable person, but at the end, you're like, you can always find vegetables. It's just going to be in a deep prior, my friend. There's just going to be a, yeah, student with a lot of pork and, yeah, yeah, cheesy grids. Come on. So good. So many good biscuits. And then I have the best, this place called the five and 10 in Athens, Georgia. Oh my God. It's like each jam. Oh my God. So good. So good. We're leaving everybody like this. Just to see what you got to do next is sort of your late summer, a foodie, a foodie's road trip guide to the South. The foodies, Roger. Got that's a lot on. We're going to go back out for October. So what that and, yeah, yeah,

1:00:45the bonus content. Cause you just got to keep making content. Sure. Yes, you do. You turn it out. All right. Let's quickly do two minutes on presidential politics as you're watching 2028. Who's had a good 2026 in your opinion? And that's on that world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh boy. Oh gosh. I have another thing. I think John also has had a great 26. You really think he's running? We should take that. I don't know. I don't know. I think we definitely take it seriously. You have to take him seriously. I think he's had a good 26. I don't know who else really. I mean, I think that I'm not convinced about the people who are just out campaigning for other people and like, you know, having your own race to run gives you an advantage. It really does. Cause you, you can talk about yourself in a way that you're not being like, look at me. I'm running for president. And the others are just having to talk about other things. It's not a great set up. Yeah. I guess awesome, though.

1:01:46I think if you'd ask me who was going to have the benefit the most from a, from, from that aspect of things, we would have probably both said Shapiro and Westmore, right? You know, because they actually could be running for reelection while they're doing it. Yeah. Assof is, it's in that sense that's been impressive. He makes, he makes a full argument. He's got a full, I mean, I'm not saying that it's the winning organ for 28, but he's got a full argument that he makes about corruption. You know, his grounds and in history, grounds and in history of Georgia, you know, how it's holding us back, what he could do about it, what it would mean to, you know, it's, you know, it's well thought out. Hey, very quickly, it just cool. And Assof ended up winning in 26, but not Tallariko. Yeah. What is that? What is, what is, what is that? It means we're making it means you're making progress, but, you know, that was a tough race. That was also going to be a tough race. There were a lot of Thursdays had ones that he had. And, you know, I just think that, but it, but it like stuff is changing in the South.

1:02:52And it's just like, I just feel like it's really important to keep the engagement up because it's been, it's just been, like, it's just been an open field for them. So I come from a world where I believe every state has a 50% folkroom. It's your job as a political party to figure it out. Yeah. Congratulations. Congratulations. This is an I heart podcast guaranteed human.