I Cheated on My Pregnant Wife… With a Man

0:00Hey guys, don't forget about where All in Scene plus where you can get access to bonus episodes and early releases on Fridays to every Sunday's episode. You can subscribe in app on Apple, Spotify and YouTube or visit whereallinsane.com. So I'm Jason W. Miller. I was born in Washington, D.C. grew up in a small town, Freeberg, Illinois right across the river from St. Louis. And you know, went through my life doing everything that I felt I needed to do and was supposed to do and checked all the boxes. I graduated high school in Freeberg, moved to Boone, North Carolina, went to Appalachian State University for undergraduate and graduate school. And when I moved to Boone, I met my now ex-wife. I was 17 and she was 15, graduated high school early. And we dated for about six years and ended up being married for about five before on the evening of September 7, 2003.

1:05I sat down with her and told her three very key things that changed the trajectory of her life in my life forever. I explained to her that I had had an affair, that it was with another man and that I am gay. And at that point, I had been having an affair for about three months with a coworker who was my now husband, Matt. It was messy. The the affair part for me was hands down the most difficult from a guilt perspective because I knew that that was bringing her into something. And I was September 7, I was about one month shy of my 29th birthday when I came out to my ex-wife. And that's really, she's only the third person at that point who I had ever spoken those words to, that I was gay. It was something that throughout my life I had just really pushed down. And I honestly didn't know what it was until my relationship began with Matt. And he asked me the morning after

2:13our first physical encounter, how long I had known that I was gay. And I said to him, since I was six. And that's really the first time that I had used the word or the term gay to describe myself. And you know, I guess I had always thought before growing up like, oh, that was the same sex experience or that was experimentation and kind of would explain things away. But knew that, you know, when I would go into a room, I would would notice the men over women. And there were different things like that. And I certainly noticed growing up that friends, you know, were talking about their girlfriends and about going on dates. And that just was terrifying to me because it wasn't of interest. And I didn't really know how to define or articulate that. So when you met quick question, when you met your ex-wife, did you feel like sparks of any sort? Or did it kind of just feel like, okay, I like this person and I'm going to try this route?

3:15So definitely I would say there were sparks. You know, we developed a very close connection. And I would say we really became best friends. So for me, I always had more female friends than I had male friends growing up. So it was kind of I would describe it as almost an extension of that, but at a very different level. Like it was a very different connection and she and I shared a lot of the same interests. And so it was, it was very different in that sense for sure. When you were with her physically, did you feel like a disconnect within yourself? At times I did, not always. At times I did, I will tell you after my relationship began with Matt, it was very, very, very different like night and day. Like night and day and actually, you know, even at that age, it was actually physically very difficult for me after that relationship began with Matt. Right. To even engage with something to compare to. Exactly.

4:21And I think it was kind of that thing that had been in this box for all those years that had been, you know, kind of the box had been opened and it was like, this is kind of what I, what I guess in my mind, I had wondered what that was like. So it was very, very different. And then so you said you, these feelings you knew since you were six was, so what at six years old kind of made you realize like, so I think for me, it was very much noticing boys more than I noticed girls. Like I can remember, you know, people saying, oh, you know, isn't she pretty or don't you like this or don't you like? And I just, it's not that I didn't find, you know, beauty in somebody, but it was, it was very different. It was, it was a curiosity. I would describe it as more of a curiosity. But I think it's also really important from a perspective standpoint to make, make it clear that, you know, I was born in 1974. So for me growing up, that was during

5:28the 1980s, during the entire AIDS crisis. And I really found that to be unrelatable from the standpoint of what you were seeing in the media, it was very, very sensationalized. So it was the gay people you were seeing were, you know, grand marshals and every in every gay pride parade and very, very, very flamboyant. And I had never been exposed to that. I had been exposed to people who were gay, but not, not to that degree, but that was kind of what you saw. You know, it was this very extreme example that you saw on the media. And that to me was also, I think that kind of further helped suppress everything because I was like, I don't, that's not who I am. And I, I can't relate to that. It was either like this box or this box. There was no in between. And I think that probably leads to a lot of confusion. Sure. Like, exactly. What are these feelings? What's, you know, no gray? I mean, it's no gray at all in between. So between six and 28, did you speak

6:32to anybody about it or you just completely suppressed it? So I had, you know, definitely like at a young age had like, what I would describe as experimentation with certainly people my age, I had some things happen physically in high school, but never was it spoken of ever. And I think that's an interesting point because not even to myself, like it's something that I really, until I got married, I really, and I don't really know why that occurred at that time. But for me, I think there was almost a, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but a finality of, of being married that like, okay, this is like a lifetime. And so now I've committed to a lifetime where there's not really going to be any, any wiggle room on this. And at that point, I was definitely questioning more after I got married, not before, but after I got married. But I'd never, ever spoken the word gay

7:39until Matt asked me how long I had known I was gay until the morning, the morning after first physical encounter. So are you comfortable with kind of walking us through the affair and how it started? Sure. So Matt and I worked together for a brief period of time. And he had moved to the town where I was in Boone, North Carolina, had moved there. We worked together briefly. And I'd never really had a lot of male friends. And when Matt got there, he had done his training in Memphis. So, you know, a lot more activity than Boone, North Carolina. And when he got there, he would call, he would want to know if I wanted to play basketball. And like, no, I don't, like, no, I don't, I don't even know how to play basketball. But no, I'm not doing that. But we started doing things as couple friends, the four of us, as couple friends. And he was married too. That's correct to a woman. And so we would do things together. And we did trips, the four of us did trips. But I really felt like there was a closeness and a bond before anything physical happened. It just, it was just,

8:39it was different. And it was different than anything I had experienced in the first 28 years of my life. So we, you know, worked together. And then we went on an office trip. It was a, like, an office bonding trip. And the owner of the medical practice had a large home at the beach, hold him beach in North Carolina. And Matt and I were the only two male employees or male staff. And so we shared a room. And there were two double beds in that room. And the first night we got there, there were probably about eight other staff with us, something like that, eight to 10, something like that. All females. And they, you know, we had had a great evening and the time came that we went to bed. And we talked for about three to three and a half hours. And I'm often asked, was there alcohol involved? We had alcohol early in the evening, but certainly it was, we were completely coherent. There wasn't. Yeah. I just feel like too, like, I kind of, like I,

9:42and correct me if I'm wrong. Sure. But I feel like that's a very typical question. When it comes to infidelity and cheating with a man and a woman, I think, you know, attraction and loss. I think it's a lot of lust. But to me, just hearing your story, I feel like the alcohol doesn't even, wouldn't even matter because it sounds like it would be more so like a feeling of like safety for you. Correct. And that's a very good way to put it. And I think that, you know, the assumption, yeah. And I can talk, talk a lot about of assumptions since I started sharing my story online, because people are so quick to judge and assume like what you did and what you didn't do and why this happened and that, you know, they haven't figured out in 30 seconds of something that they year I always say. But, you know, the, we were, we had a very coherent conversation and it was, to your point, there was a safety and we took the capability. Exactly. And it was, it was a really

10:44interesting, I couldn't tell you a lot of specifics about that conversation, but I know that that they're, I felt very comfortable and we did start speaking of thoughts and feelings that we had had from an earlier age. And I don't even really know how we progressed to that, but it was obvious that I was not alone in this conversation. One of the hardest parts about actually starting a business is getting yourself to actually start the business. There is always going to be a million reasons to wait, whether it's you need more money, you still don't have a website that you need to build, you need more time, you need to understand how to actually sell things online successfully. And then suddenly months have gone by and you still have not started or launched your business. And that is why Shopify is a great option. If you have an idea that you've been sitting on that you really want to go somewhere, but you've just haven't started quite yet because maybe you were overstimulated or confused or it just seems very overwhelming in a lot, which are all completely

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12:51of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.com slash insane to start your free trial today. That's right. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash insane. That's s-h-o-p-i-f-y.com slash insane. After about three or three and a half hours, we had our first physical encounter and you know, everybody went to sleep in the next morning, we got up and we went running. And I said to Matt, do you feel badly about what happened? And he said, I don't feel badly about what happened. I feel badly that I'm married and I have just had an affair. And I think that was the part that really summed up at that time where we both were. And it's difficult to describe how there was this connection and there was this... I don't know, it was almost a liberating feeling

13:54as the way I would describe it of having that connection because I had never, ever felt that way in my entire life. And then there was the complete conflict internally still of, oh no, now what am I gonna do? Like, now Pandora's Box is open. So, like, what now what is going to happen? Yeah, because it's like you have this feeling of a most understanding. Correct. After years of kind of questioning or not understanding what a feeling was. And then I feel like you have the aspect of, okay, I had an affair. I have to handle that. And then I have to also handle out a complete change in my life because now I've discovered what I've been feeling. Did you feel any fear or shame behind being gay once you figured out that's what? So, I didn't. So, that's... I didn't, but at that point at that moment when we went running, I think for me, I was more focused on the affair part.

14:55Yep. Because I think it's important to note that my father who I was not at all close with, I was an only child, was not at all close with, was a serial adulterer. And I lived that with my mother and I saw the hurt that that caused. And a lot of the times my mom did not know about it long after the affair occurred. So, I've talked before about so many things that my father did as I grew up were major notes for me of what I didn't want to do, for example, as a parent and who I didn't want to be as a person. And I didn't dwell on it. And I didn't, you know, kind of wallow in that. But I used it as like, okay, lesson noted right here. This is not what I want to do. So that really bothered me because that was something that I really didn't, did not agree with it all that my father did. And again, he did it, you know, he was straight. It was a different type of thing. And I'm not, I'm certainly not making excuses for an affair because there never

15:59write it was just a different thing definitely that he, that he was going through. So that's where I was that morning. And it was not until that afternoon that we were on a jet ski and Matt turned to me and said, once over his right shoulder and he said, so how long have you known you were gay? And it was in that moment that my wedding band was, was, was gold at the time. And the sun hit my wedding band as I looked at it. And I was holding on to Matt. And it literally like that stopped me in my tracks. And I said, since I was about six because I was getting ready to actually say, I'm not gay, that was experimentation. That is how ingrained. Yeah. That was in me and how, how hard coded that what that was and how well I had done for almost 29 years, suppressing everything that that was going to be my response. And the sun shining on my wedding band stopped me in my tracks. And I said

17:00since I was about six. So when I said it, I realized it's kind of one of those things that once those words come out, they're out. There's really going back. There is no going back. And I knew that even though I had shared it only with Matt, that was a very, very big deal. Those words were out. And I, I think we, we all can think of examples that times that words come out of our mouth and you realize they're gone. The words are gone and you cannot retract them. And that's where I was in that moment. It was and it was a very surreal feeling. I remember very well all these years later, 23 years later, almost 24. What that was, what that felt like in that moment, I can remember hearing my heartbeat and feeling my heartbeat like in my ears because it was, there was this exhilaration, but it was also there was a fear in me sharing those words. Yeah. Even with him. Right. It opens a whole

18:02another door to everything. Completely. So after, how long was after the Jetsky ride, how much longer were you guys on the trip? So we were on the trip one other one more full day. Okay. And then I dropped Matt off of the airport because he was getting ready to meet his ex-wife on a trip. And they were going to be gone for a week. So here is more, more of me than anybody has ever known. I have shared and the person that has been a part of this is we're going to have complete radio silence. They were out of the country for one week. And you went home. So I went home and knowing and worrying. Now I'm, I'm, I'm a can be tightly wound sometimes. So, so for me, I just kept thinking if he says one word, I mean, like the gig is up. I mean, he says one word, I'm going to be out it. And he was thinking, of course, we later revealed the same thing. So we both are kind of like

19:05if anybody feels overwhelmed, whatever it may be, like somebody says anything, it's over. Like, for both of us. Did you have an idea in your head at this point of when you were going to tell your wife or not yet? Absolutely. Zero idea. Okay. Because at that point, you know, this, this started and there we were together for about three days. He was gone and he would go this, you know, this is really before international cell phones and all sorts of things. So he would go to an internet, internet cafe in the morning. And every morning, I would send me an email. And I would write back and I guess he probably wouldn't see it until the next day. But that was kind of our temperature check is the way I would describe it like, okay, what's, you know, what's going on. But zero idea. Because more than anything, I knew that I couldn't really progress with everything without him understanding, like they're being an understanding at least of how I was going to do

20:08that. Not necessarily outing him, but even if I just said, hey, I'm gay. Like if I just came out. So I knew that was going to have to be an understanding. So it wasn't until Matt got back that we had any sort of conversation at all and not still at that point, not about coming out. Matt used to have a term that has stuck with me all these years about re-assimulating, re-assimulating into our former lives with our wives, re-assimulating into society for the way we had conformed all of those years. So that was when he returned, that was the conversation. Because you have to also understand, you know, I'm in a small town in Western North Carolina at the time. And you know, this is in 2003. So very, very different time. And Matt has just finished, gosh, 13 years of training and is in practice in this small town. And you know, I'm thinking too, like, this is going to ruin every, like everybody is going to be unemployable. Like this is really going to be a mess. So it's

21:13when Matt came back. And I remember the date because there's a very, very key thing that happened on that date, but it was June 6th of 2003 that Matt and I met after work to try and sort through, like, you know, how do we navigate this? What do we do? How do we get this, you know, back in the box, it came from like, what do we need to do? Because keep in mind the four of us are couple friends. So and keep in mind that he is my ex-wife's physician. So June 6th, we have this conversation, and we don't come to a conclusion. And we get in our respective vehicles to go to our respective lives with our, with our wives. And as we're getting in the cars, our cars, Matt says, the only thing that would make this more complicated is if one of our wives were to get pregnant. And I went home and I opened the front door and saw my ex-wife sitting very similar to how you were

22:17sitting right now on the couch crying hysterically. And I said, what is wrong? And she said, I'm pregnant and I'm worried that I have harmed the baby because I had alcohol last weekend. And of course, my mind is thinking, okay, well, that is right in this very moment the least of what we have to to sort through. And she said, will you call Matt? So I, this is in the days of- Talk about messy. Right. Talk about messy. Right. This is right. You want to talk about the messy middle of life. This is- We're right in it. Oh my god. And so this is in the days of the cordless phone. So I pulled up the antenna and I stepped out onto the front porch. Like, well, your jinx set. Yeah. And exactly. I was like, so do you remember what you said as we were leaving? And, you know, he of course is in disbelief. And the four of us, the, Matt and his ex-wife. And my ex-wife and I went that night and had a celebratory dinner about the pregnancy. And that, of course, started an entire different flood of emotions of,

23:24you know, I'm getting- I'm going to be a father. I'm in the middle of an affair. I now can admit that I'm gay. Like, you know, what- what's going to give here? Wait. Loose is one of those things that can become so frustrating because what works for one person might not work for another person. And there's just so much online and out there in the world today that we don't even know what to trust, what to listen to, and what's going to be the perfect solution for you. And honestly, it can be extremely overwhelming even knowing where to start when there are so many options at hand. So that's why I wanted to tell you about weight loss by hers. If you're somebody that's been waiting for the right time to tackle your weight loss goals, now is the time and this is it. Hers now offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved JLP 1 medications, including the wogovi pill and the wogovi pen. And the best part, as always in my opinion, is that everything is done online. So you can connect with a licensed

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25:28or were you in a place where you were like, no, I feel strongly and that's the best I've felt within myself. I need to tell her and kind of. So I would say that I was kind of in the middle of that. So for me at that time, I didn't really, there were so many emotions. There was the guilt. There was the disbelief that she was pregnant. There was the fear of how is this ever going to work out. There was the feelings developing with Matt. That bond was becoming stronger. There was the feeling of guilt also that I was pulling away from my ex-wife. Also, I really felt that she was going to misperceive that as I wasn't attracted to her because of

26:29the pregnancy and things like that. So I was still very much in that moment trying to gather as much information as I could in every direction so that I could figure out what do I need to do. What is the path forward here? How do I perceive it? In the conversations that you and Matt were having of trying to just navigate next steps, did you guys ever come to a conclusion of we should do this at the same time and be together? We did not. So I think this is difficult for people to understand. So we did not. We continued throughout that summer. So this went on for about three months. Okay. We continued throughout that summer with couples trips. Our wives were encouraging us to do things together because I was really struggling from an emotional standpoint, a psychological standpoint, started affecting me physically. Just the stress. We had a lot of stressors going on.

27:39Our wives were encouraging us to be together because everybody misperceived my stress and my obvious angst as, oh, he's really freaked out that he's going to have a child. And so, I'm getting books from people about fatherhood. This is not the manual that I need right now. Yeah, literally. So we never had a conversation. It was really more about, I would say, we would talk about more what was going on in the present moment. It was never like, okay, we need to do this, we need to do this on this day or this time. Never. Including up to the day that we told our wives and we did individually, we came to the conclusion that that day that we were both going to do that. And I called Matt, I told him. No discussion about it. No discussion about it. That's crazy. That's correct. Yes. So we were both, it was to a point though that I have to say that it was affecting

28:49everybody at every level. And I think that people knew that there were, I mean, it was very palpable, that something was not right. It just, nobody really knew what. And I think it is good that, and some people might disagree with this, but I think that it's good that you guys did have a very real authentic connection because I think that that probably solidified for you both. Like, okay, this is a real feeling. This isn't an experimentation. This isn't a phase. This isn't something that I need to really question. Like, I think that when it came to you guys, it seems that way, at least from what you're saying that it was just very obvious that there was a deep connection there. And I think that that's better than just somebody random or a fling or so, you know what I mean? So I would agree with you. And I think that that's something for me after we did come out that was very difficult to hear people say. And a lot of times what we would hear is,

29:52well, you know, you understand that if you are in a relationship that began as an affair, statistically, that's not going to last. But once again, I think I just think I hate to say it, but I do feel in your situation, it's very different. So, and I'm also very reluctant to say that, because I don't ever, I don't, I'm not, and I want to be, I'm not asking for sympathy, I'm not asking for a pass for the affair, because an affair is an affair. It is even, even in my mind, and that's really where, you know, years of therapy, for me, talking with various therapists, even about my father and the issues that I had about the affair, you know, that was, I've gotten to a place where I'm able to deal with that internally because it was, it was something that was different. Two, obviously, you know, we're human, humans make mistakes. Sure. And it's okay to reflect and be like, was this the right way? No, probably not, but at the same time, I think the moment that you guys had on that trip was a moment of self-discovery.

30:52I don't think it was necessarily a moment of lust and attraction. And I think a lot of people, there is a pool of people who cheat solely because of that, like solely because they just can't help themselves, they just want to fuck whatever. Yes. And that's that. And there's like a high almost for them. But I don't think that that is the category either one of you were in. I think it was a moment, like you said, the moment of conversation and of feeling like, obviously, there was something bottled up within you guys for years. And I think that was probably the first moment. And maybe the only moment that you both felt like, wow, I'm, is this what this is? And once again, granite, you know, maybe something physical shouldn't have happened at that time because you guys were both married. And I think that that's very obvious that you can understand that. But do I think that that automatically means it came from just lust and attraction? Absolutely not. I think it came from a place of a place of comfortability and understanding and safety and feeling like, wow, I feel like somebody can see me and I feel safe enough to open that door.

31:57I agree with you. And I think that that is a very informed perspective as the way that I would order. And I think that people can be very, very quick to rush to judgment. And I think that you're point about the connection with Matt. You know, I think there was obviously a connection, the fact that we did on the same day come to the conclusion that we needed to tell our wife. And as you might imagine, that's not exactly a conversation. Well, it wasn't for me. Let me say that that I entered into lightly. I knew that my words, it was terrifying. And I knew that my words were going to forever change not just my life, but my ex-wife's life who at that time was four and a half months pregnant. Right. So it wasn't something that, you know, just Willie Nilly, I'm like, oh, hey, I'm going to say something today. I mean, that was something that at that point, I that day, I left home for a while and really had to go and really had to go and clear my head

33:05and my thoughts. And I love to talk. So for me to really have to go and do that and think about it, I mean, it was the gravity of that conversation was right up there with conversations in my life. I can think of one other conversation in my life that is really a kind of a showstopper, but that that one was was way up there. I don't know about you guys, but I feel like making a doctor's appointment is one of those things that I have in the back of my mind and it's just always there. I know I have to do it. And then of course, life gets busy, things get hectic and I completely forget. And then I find myself asking myself, oh crap, I have still not made my doctor's appointment. I'm definitely overdue. How long has it been? All of these questions are constantly circling through my head. And honestly, the whole process of actually finding a doctor that takes your insurance, one that you like, one that's actually available, and it isn't like a three to four month weight, is really stressful and frustrating and can just completely make you not want to do it at all. So this is why I've been using Zacta. Your health matters, but so does your time. So finding a doctor

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35:13So when you decided to have that conversation with her, did you plan on saying anything about that or just focusing on yourself? Just on myself. Okay. And so I basically I went back home. It was evening by then and I went back home and you know she knew that something was wrong and I want to just say I'm very careful to not speak for what somebody else felt or their feelings, but I'm speaking from my first hand experience of what I witnessed and you know I went back to a dark home and she was very upset not really knowing kind of you know where I was, what was going on and I just said that I needed to speak to her and we sat on the couch and I told her the same three things that I said to you as I started I said I have had an affair. It was with another man and I'm gay and I did not mention Matt's name at that time. And what was her response? It immediately she's her immediate words were no you're not. And you know that's really all I

36:21ever share of that conversation was her immediate words because it was just it is still chokes me up this many years later. It was really a gut-ranging conversation and I think for me it was hard to imagine then and over two decades later it is still difficult for me to imagine the level of her and what she truly felt when she heard those words. Right and I think too that's another thing which in my opinion is further supports what I said before I don't think there was ever a point where you wanted to hurt her. Never. Absolutely not. You know that at the end of the day that's still somebody you love as a person. Correct. So to sit there and have and know that you're hurting them and then on top of it you know like women's brains they blame themselves a lot and you know and I think that it can get really sad to think about besides just hearing the news of that but then

37:26here blaming yourself thinking of all these things within yourself you know and ask me for her obviously but I think a lot of women will often think like what's wrong with me like this and that and I think that just all the thoughts of that are really it's really heartbreaking too. Absolutely because you know she she handled it in a way that was more gracious than I would have than you could have and more forgiving than even today I mean people still don't believe fully the way she handled it but you know very quickly after that conversation even she said it's not that it necessarily that it that it makes it better but she said for me one of the things that as she and I talked about it it was actually easier for her that it was not another woman yeah because she wasn't comparing herself then directly to someone's body you know body size or body you know there's yeah exactly all the all the all the all the things so so that was something

38:30that she shared that I found very interesting but it made I mean as you just said it made a lot of sense it made a lot of sense so after the conversation did you how long until you let Matt know that you told her well so as the conversation unfolded that night she was very very emotional we both were but I was very concerned about her and so the kind of the crazy thing is we lived right next door to her parents okay and I did not feel and this proved to be the case that she would not want to tell them right away and so I was concerned about her from a physical standpoint just because of her reaction so I called my mom and I said I need you to come over and she came over and as she came in she thought something was wrong with the baby same night same night I mean flew over I guess would be the best way to describe it and she came in and the three of us sat on the couch and I

39:34shared the exact same same things with my mom and my mom really didn't even pause and looked right at me and said five words that are still with me today and I still love you and I knew in that moment that I didn't ever really doubt that my mom would be on my side or that would be in my corner would be like the ultimate ally but at that point my ex-wife had asked me if she knew the person and then when I said yes her next question was is it Matt? Wow. So because we were spending yeah a lot of time together really even at our ex-wife's wives' urgence so we were spending a lot of time together so she asked that question and I immediately admitted at that point yeah at that point there wasn't anything that I was gonna talk about so and she would ask me questions and I you know I was very open and honest and she was actually able to trace back to that weekend

40:40that that everything started with us that this is when things changed. Ever feel like healthy eating is harder than it should be? I get it nutrition and feel complicated but it doesn't have to be. On B-well by Kelly I simplify the signs of nutrition so you can feel better balance your blood sugar and build healthy habits that actually last. Each week I talked to leading experts doctors and researchers about practical ways to nourish your body and make wellness accessible in real life. Listen to B-well by Kelly wherever you get your podcasts new episodes every Wednesday. So she knew so it wasn't it wasn't just me but she knew that it was was Matt that night and I the way I recall was before my mom even got there that she knew and and she then said this is gosh probably within a couple of hours of me telling her she wanted to know where Matt was the next day and I said well he's in surgery and she said I want to talk to him so I reached out to Matt that evening it was several hours we had complete radio silence and

41:47you know we had in our respective homes had told our wives and I reached out that evening and I think what our what our thought was when we talked earlier in the day and both revealed that hey I can't do this anymore I've got to say something we both felt that we were going to be in end up being kicked out of the house and that we you know we'll probably have to go to yeah there was going to be like a massive blow up that night but I think that it was honestly such a shock to everybody that you know kind of all the stages of grief like people are going through all different different stages and they people certainly did it different times but I think that really the shock was more than anything that there wasn't I mean nobody was leaving the house that night there was a lot of talking yeah a lot of talking so you gave him a call you told him that you told your wife and your mom that's right and what was his response um I remember him asking

42:48how everything went and you know I shared that it was at that point it was just there was such devastation that it was really you know I think it would be the way I would would like it that is kind of you know a building collapses and there's just debris and rubble and dust everywhere and you're trying to figure out like what this is on the ground you know just really trying to figure everything out so I just remember it described I remember telling him about what what the reaction had been and that my mom had been there and I do remember telling him that she that my ex-wife wanted to talk to him and did you feel any sort of relief that night or was it still just a lot of negative emotion at that time so interestingly I felt relief that the lie had stopped okay so I felt even though in the midst of all of this chaos for me the fact that the lie had the the perpetuation of the lie had ended that that because that was a lot and as the saying goes and

43:53it's something that I have told my daughter the the entirety of her life is when you tell the first lie you are going to continue to lie until you tell the truth like and it just builds and builds and builds and it became exhausting like it was truly exhausting and it was so deceptive it was just you know that it was so multilayered so I did feel relief in that sense okay and then on that same phone call when you told him that your ex-wife wanted to speak with him did he then reveal to you that he had told his ex-wife so I knew he had told his ex-wife but we didn't get into a lot of detail at all about what had happened there but yes I knew I knew that he had told his his wife as well and I don't even remember that night if I knew that it was revealed that I was the person I don't remember that and then how long after that night in that conversation did

44:54your ex-wife and that have a conversation the next morning okay and how did that go so the three of us sat on that same now infamous couch and it was to me still one of again it is one of the most real things that I've ever witnessed because what she said was I am devastated and really hurt by everything that has happened but a child is going to be born and I want to show everyone that this can work meaning with with the three of us so that that was 12 hours later 18 hours later that was her response still and of course I'm thinking she's pregnant like they're all I mean I don't know formally what's going on that would be better first at that then then I was but I was kind of like I don't know what's going on here but it was it was just it was unbelievable it was

45:54absolutely unbelievable and still at this point you guys didn't know that you would end up together no so that's interesting too we had never had the conversation of we're going to have an affair we are going to tell our wives and we are going to end up together like we're you know film and Louise we're going to run off together it's we we never had that conversation it's very like in the moment what's next it was very in the moment but this is the other thing that it was not this really contrived scheme right yeah it wasn't at all and it was as you've mentioned earlier it was more evident to me too that it was a true connection because it wasn't this okay what's the next exciting thing that's going to happen because it didn't know none of it sounds exciting not not and I want to I want to be able to tell you that from an outside perspective because I think it's very easy for people to judge especially from snippets of things but I think that like I said before we started filming I think that this is such a powerful conversation because while yes

46:59there's infidelity and there's you know lies and cheating and whatever throughout it's such an important conversation to have because there are so many people that suppress feelings that they have out of fear out of shame and they go their whole lives never truly finding themselves and you know I think that everyone deserves to live a life where they're truly happy and they're authentic to themselves you know the most powerful version we can be is the one that we're authentic to ourselves absolutely and I and I appreciate you saying that because it it really you know for me during all of this it was you know we when we moved out even we didn't move in together mat and I moved into separate apartments like we were very intentional about the way we progressed because we understood I mean we were both smart enough to understand there's a lot of emotion involved in this and you know we wanted to make non-emotional decisions that we felt were you know appropriate given everything

48:04so it was not so at that the next day for a period of time there was not a oh my gosh let's let's move in let's let's do this let's do that that wasn't what happened well I think two people forget that you know this decision on both of your guys' end it uproots your entire lives you know we live in such a judgmental world we live in a place where you know it's that's not always being gay is not always accepted or treated nicely at all it's not the norm to a lot of people that's true so you know that on its own is scary you know so for anybody to assume that it's like it was some fun game for you guys you know it's just it's interesting to me just because I think that it's very obvious that that wasn't the case but once again going back to what I said I think it's amazing and powerful that you you own your story the way you do because I wish more people felt okay to share their truth and to share like okay I can acknowledge that I that this part was

49:06wrong but I can also acknowledge like the relief it is in owning up to something that I did and also finding who I really am after all of these years of like suppressing and suppressing things I you know I agree and I think that something that you said I want to want to talk about a little and that is with the number of people who are judgmental but also the number of people sadly who are judgmental and who who are living exactly the way I live for 28 years and you know it's kind of often it's the people who are protesting and making the most noise are the most unsettled in their own lives and I think that's really sad and since I started this journey of sharing this story you know I had zero idea if this would be relatable to people I had zero idea over two decades later if it would be relevant to people I didn't know what to expect as as I've shared with you I didn't

50:08even have social media before this I did not even have a social media accounts and the hundreds and hundreds of people from all over the world yeah who have reached out some of whom have come out since they have heard this story some of whom are in I I can think of people in decades long relationships with men and they're married I mean I can think of people who have been married for it for decades and they will write to me and it's like I hope someday I feel the strength and you know for us and I don't really know why Matt and I put this and it's definitely a lot different for us now because I'll be 52 in October and at the time you know I was 28 but we would say I don't want to be like I don't want to wake up at age 60 and this is like this was to the at the toward the latter part of our of the affair before we told our wives but like we don't want to wake up at age 60 in this terrible lie you know going on family trips together where we have children and grandchildren

51:15and we are living this lie for the entirety of our life because you know my mom always said to me like this is not a dress rehearsal this is our one shot at this and I think for me that really resonated like I don't I don't want to it's not just it's not just about me living the lie I am involving somebody else in this like it would have been for their lifetime you know what I'm saying and so so I think that's it's very interesting how people are very quick to judge and we are in such a you know just such an interesting time where things tend to be more polarized and they were at one point and you know you just get so many different opinions about oh you always knew looking to strengthen your health and well-being tune into the Dr. Tina show one of Apple podcasts top alternative health shows I'm Dr. Tina Moore naturopathic physician and chiropractor and I cover topics like metabolic health chronic diseases pain management and more with expert interviews and solo episodes I keep it no nonsense with a science-backed approach to empower you to improve

52:20your health and resilience new episodes every Thursday produced by Drake Peterson and wellness loud I find it very interesting when somebody tells me that I always knew that I was gay and I'm the one in this body flipping this life it's like okay how for 30 seconds did somebody they're able to tell me what I have felt like you know things like that to your point about being judgmental it's really it's really interesting but I feel like the connection was definitely there for us even as we progressed past you know past telling our wives as our relationship continue to evolve yeah and then after the news is out did you guys both move out of the homes and kind of okay yes so Matt much more quickly than I did so Matt was within about a month moved out I was finishing my master's degree at the time and my ex-wife and I you know again she's pregnant of course so we spoke about

53:22kind of the timing and what made the most sense so I stayed the month of September October and left the beginning of and November and left moved out the beginning of December with the understanding that when our daughter was born that I would move back in for about six weeks this to help yeah exactly and and at that point you know we were trying to figure out like how often I would have Ella our daughter you know like how that was all going to work and we did everything you know jointly that was all very amicable we never ran into any issue it was always very important to me for example that you know they weren't a nice home so I moved I I mean I took very little and I remember actually you know my attorney saying you know you're in North Carolina it's 50-50 and that just wasn't it was more important for me and a lot of this was certainly from a place of guilt but but also it was just really important for me that they were

54:24more comfortable you know because I knew this was going to be a different thing so I moved out in December Ella was born the beginning of February and I think the other part that's really an amazing part of this to show the graciousness of my ex-wife is she asked Matt to perform the delivery wow and let me just stop and say that did not occur without a lot of planning in advance and you know Matt had one of his partner's medical partners there in case a medical decision had to be made so that there wasn't the emotional connection but when that delivery occurred it was my ex-wife me and Matt and two nurses in the room so technically Matt is the very first person who Ella ever saw and Ella calls Matt Papa you know you can probably imagine in this small town what sort of talking points let's call them talking points that that event provided at the hospital it was

55:30there were even staffing changes that were made right because of that event I mean it was it wasn't anticipated event for sure but we navigated that really well my mother did not help did not help quell the attention in fact my mother decided that we needed champagne in the delivery room and showed up not just with champagne but plenty of champagne as my mother always did with the strangest I set up with glassware I have ever seen so each glass was a flower with a colored stem in this large thing and the bottle went down so she carried that into the hospital I was like okay well you know maybe a little little subtlety would go a long way here we don't want more attention but you know it was it was there there was a lot that came out of that we actually interestingly had someone file an anonymous complaint with the North Carolina Medical

56:32Board insinuating that Matt had falsified a medical record they didn't even enter a finding there was absolutely no validity to any of it but interestingly and and yes I was but just to be clear I was referred to as Dr. Sohnso's gay lover stop yeah so that that was how I was referred yeah which okay fine we want to really break it down yeah yeah but but you know what this one say how you wanted this one yeah exactly say say how it makes you feel better but someone thought so much of their complaint that they hid behind anonymity and and filed it so nothing happened with that but we created quite a stir in Boone North Carolina was what's hog a medical center I don't know if it's still called that now or exchange but it was an exciting time in in Boone so yeah so how long was Matt your wife's physician for so Matt had moved just a few well so Matt had started practicing

57:37in October of 2002 okay and this all started with us in May of 2003 okay and then but he was her physician through it all and then still delivered the baby and everything that's right and so she she then requested for Matt to deliver I mean I rather be somebody I'm close with and I know well I think it goes back to what she said to us the day exactly and her character yeah that it could work now I think to like it shows that she doesn't she's on a heat full person you know like yeah she's not at all and I think the other part that's been so interesting is how many people have judged her based upon her reaction of kindness and love and grace and mercy and it's like okay well did you really want this just to be a free for all and everybody be fighting and may not be able to see now the baby so it's really interesting but it's it's it is another

58:39testament to her character I mean it absolutely is that she wanted to live out what she told us the morning after is that to show everybody that this could work at this point you have to understand though like everybody knew so when we told our wives unfortunately or fortunately however you look at it and I actually can find positive in both ways but we had a couple of people who we had one person who just completely became unhinged in the medical community and said that it was his moral obligation to write a biblical wrong and he like a madman went through the hospital you know slamming doors open going to anybody who would listen from the CEO to my personal physician to my grandmother's oncologist because she was going through cancer treatment at the time to the the head nurse in labor and delivery where Matt was part of the staff I mean just in an unhinge way

59:43so we didn't really have to worry about this trickling out it literally was out and everybody knew in this town everybody knew what was going on and certainly there were some people we never heard from again certainly some people we heard from in a very unkind hateful way but there were also people who were just true stars and were there for us in a just an unbelievable way and even an unbelievable public way right and then how long after the final split and everything did you guys really start being able to spend time together and building your relationship and marriage yeah so we did not go into public really other than going to work for about six weeks and then slowly we would get together and go to like a dinner something like that so Matt and I then ended up buying a home in May of 2005 and you know we were definitely around

1:00:48each other more like on weekends things like that certainly once we once we moved out you know Matt was very involved with Ella from the beginning Ella was with us multiple nights a week from the very beginning even when we had separate apartments or we would kind of figure out how we were going to do that and it became you know we didn't know what was going to happen in this town with Matt's practice and his practice exploded people came out of the woodwork to be supportive as Payton would come to Matt as patients we became friends with a lot of his patients and and their husbands he Matt ended up delivering a lot of Ella's classmates and friends which was a neat which was a neat thing but you know it it just evolved over time and I would say became I hate using the word normal but you know just kind of it normalized is the way I would describe it and then ever feel like healthy eating is harder than it should be I get it nutrition and feel complicated but it doesn't have to be on B. Well by Kelly I simplify the science of nutrition so

1:01:50you can feel better balance your blood sugar and build healthy habits that actually last each week I talked to leading experts doctors and researchers about practical ways to nourish your body and make wellness accessible in real life listen to B. Well by Kelly wherever you get your podcasts new episodes every Wednesday I'm trying to think so in North Carolina you have to be separated for a year so I believe it was March of 2005 my divorce was finalized because you have to have that legal separation for a full year before before that happens but you know again it was amicable and we were able to work through everything with you know my ex-wife being always being very very supportive of us amazing and yeah it really is so so the pregnancy hormones everybody those theories were those theories were shot and so far you know Matt and I've been together over 23 years now so we got married we lived in we moved from North Carolina to D Washington D.C.

1:02:50we were in Washington for about nine years and it was while we were there in 2014 that we got married on our 11-year anniversary so we didn't have another date so we got legally married after we had been together for 11 years and so we've now been married legally for 12 a little over 12 and together for 11 so that's amazing so it's it's crazy it's definitely it is definitely not what I would have told you at the time if there there was no way for me to even envision and I mean certainly you know as the little boy growing up in southern Illinois in the 1980s it's certainly not anything I would have ever ever imagined but even going through everything that we did in 2003 it was just not anything I could have ever envisioned really. No or planned right and then as far as sharing your story goes when did you decide that you wanted

1:03:54to share it publicly. Well so this has been something that for me going through all of this I wrote a lot so kind of journaled a lot about what I was experiencing how everything you know felt to me like all the emotions and some of the major things that happened so I had written in large part a lot it had written a lot of this down and I always felt like I wanted to publish a book and didn't really know how to go about doing that but I've always and this is complete affirmation for me now is I've always believed in the power of written and spoken word and you know I think now that I've shared my story and seeing the response and so on it's just further affirmation of how powerful that can be to people so Matt encouraged me for years like just for years you know I was kind of like what should I do how do I handle this so I ended

1:04:59up talking to an author coach in 2024 the end of the year and said hey I've got this not really sure what I want to do how you know how to go about doing this so I shared it with her and she ended up sharing it with a publisher friend of hers who was in New York and they're both like this is amazing but what's gonna make this different like nobody we don't really know like how's this guy going to present the story we don't really know we can read it but what's gonna make it unique and she said you know you really need to consider some online presence and I was like okay I don't know and I was very opposed to social media because my daughter growing up you know it just was like the ultimate bullying platform at times I was like I don't you know I don't want to get into all that but you know okay thanks for the information and it was honestly it was October 1st of 20 me here I am with my dates again but October 1st of 2025 I was at a conference the last day of

1:06:00the conference the keynote speaker challenged everybody in the audience to turn to someone next to and share a dream and I had somebody from my office and I said I want to share my story I don't know what that's going to look like but I want to share my story and so you know I shared this all with Matt and he's like okay well that sounds great you know what are you gonna do I don't know and so I was talking to my therapist because I'm a big I've been very open about that big big big fan of therapists I think that's everybody needs one and so I was talking with her and she challenged me and she's like you know I want you to look for like a brand strategist somebody who can kind of help you and it was just literally like gasoline on a bonfire and I found various people but I ended up connecting with this lady Anna up in Boston and I met with her we did a you know did kind of a preliminary session over the phone and she's like I think this would be better if

1:07:03you came up here and like we really worked together so I wanted Matt to go he couldn't go we had call wanted Ella to go she was finishing exams so I'm like oh my god like are you serious like I'm going and doing this like I don't know anything about social media right so we set up a TikTok account we set up an Instagram account and I so I went to Boston and worked with her I did a photo shoot because she's like you know we need to plan for a website and so I worked with her but before I went she challenged me to write my story in no more than a page and a half about 1500 words and I said like I'm 51 years old I like right yeah but it actually was way easier than I thought in fact I did it in one one writing and made I think three edits that was it so it wasn't like I you know wrote 10,000 words and then I had to produce it and so I went and she said

1:08:04I want you to tell for your first ever post I want you to tell your story and I thought about it and I said okay I want to read my story because it's important enough to me that I want to read it verbatim like I don't want to inadvertently miss something so I sat in my room in Boston and I read it and that was my first ever post on November 21st of 2025 and she there were three goals and she said what are your three goals I said okay I want to have 200 followers by the time I leave Boston I want one of my first five videos to go viral and I said so what's viral she said you're 50 like you've never had social media so if you get 10,000 views she's like 10,000 views for you having no presence is going to be huge and she said what's the other one and I said well I want to do this full time like eventually I'm not social media and raised like what do you mean so no but I want to do I want to be able to share my story and share other people's stories and

1:09:05enlighten people and do exactly what we're doing and speak to groups and so on so I did it and we went to dinner she and her husband and I went to dinner and there's a clip of me that her husband actually filmed and the first one is just going crazy and I'm like and I said to her I said this is happening here I go I get choked up because I also wanted to have I'm sorry I said 200 I wanted to have 100 followers and as the plane was taking off I had I reached I will never forget rolling down the runway 200 followers sorry yeah and it's it's just one of those things where it was there's surreal things in life but it was so surreal because again it's something I had held for over two decades and I didn't I didn't know I thought people would be like who cares like who cares but you know it's I love to talk and it's for me I think that people have just been

1:10:11able to connect through feeling that I'm authentically which I am presenting myself and you know really not holding anything back at this point and answering questions and saying you know what this really was a mess like a very big mess but you know here we are and I think to seeing the response there was probably a form of validation in a healthy way for you to be like okay this is the right thing for for me going forward right now like to share my story and to to get it out there and I think it's it's nice to be able to see and be reminded that people do care what's going on in your life and what and what you have to say I agree and you know for me so much of what goes on with my social media is really behind the scenes because as we've talked about a lot of people don't feel comfortable following me because of what I've how this all started and they don't even feel comfortable liking it so you can see the engagement behind the scenes I mean I can

1:11:12see all that but you see a lot of what's going on but you people aren't it's those numbers speak very differently than even what you what you see and yeah there's still a lot of I have a lot more than 200 followers now you know that sort of thing it's but it but it is really been a very wild journey and I think it as you said it was it was validating that you know sharing it that that was relatable to a lot of people and yeah there are you know I say engagement is engagement you know you still you get you get a lot of the negative comments to normally just leave those alone but the number of people and the number of likes and the number of people who have reached out to me through direct messages or through email or whatever it's it's just and then and the number of people now who've submitted their story through my website for even my own podcast it's just really a crazy thing the way it's the way it's happened and it

1:12:14really feels to me like it was meant to be and I think that there's a lot of power in what's happening and so many words of encouragement of this is so needed please keep going don't stop don't yes don't let people discourage you looking to strengthen your health and well-being tune into the Dr. Tina show one of Apple podcast top alternative health shows I'm Dr. Tina Moore naturopathic physician and chiropractor and I cover topics like metabolic health chronic diseases pain management and more with expert interviews and solo episodes I keep it no nonsense with a science-backed approach to empower you to improve your health and resilience new episodes every Thursday produced by Drake Peterson and wellness loud that's amazing and incredible and then so from that that day that you started the Instagram page you've just been cruising with it so I have never missed a day posting good for you so I post every day and see is so key it is so there you go so I have not so tiktok and Instagram every day

1:13:16I post and you know I try and do lives on to so I do different things to engage people my website a lot of people go there but yeah I'm having a great time it's so I'm doing that and then my own podcast now so I really it's been really a lot of fun a lot of fun I'm so glad and I'm so glad that you're here and you're willing to come on here and share your whole story you do such an incredible job really thank you I appreciate and I appreciate the opportunity and as I shared with you I love this format where it's not you know I'm looking at questions that right exactly that I'm not going to have some question because I'm as I've shared I don't you know what this is I'm speaking about my experience and and I don't want you know a lot of times people want to know well what did this person do and what did they say I'm like I'm not I'm not speaking for those people but I love this format where we can just sit here and have a conversation exactly and it's not you know really structured I like it a lot and I think too something that a lot of I think you know naturally when we're watching movies or reading books it's like we're so used to

1:14:20getting these perspectives of everybody and we have to remember like at the end of the day when people are sharing their stories it's people's real lives and I think at the end of the day what matters is the person that's sitting over there sharing their perspective and story I think a lot of times people want to you know obviously get curious and caught up and like well what did she say what did he say you know but I think the importance really is you being here and using your voice and sharing your story and your experience and honestly it's it's really beautiful as well even the the woman and the character of your ex-wife you know the fact that she was has wasn't has been so supportive you know from what you've said and I think that's really commendable and amazing and a beautiful kind of the whole thing of your whole story you know there isn't hate or anger between you guys and there shouldn't be you know and I think too that's another I think it shows how authentic and genuine you are because I think that's why everything around

1:15:20you has been handled in the easiest way possible even if there were some challenges throughout you know and that's all we can really ask for is just there's always going to be obstacles and difficulties and difficult conversations and whatever else there are lives but I think that if we are able to show up just in a very soft kind way the best that we can in certain situations I think the surrounding you know people around us they'll feel that and hopefully it'll kind of just all respond that way for sure and I think that you know this really her response is such a testament to her character and you know it really I've said before but she really she chose love and forgiveness and grace and ironically grace and not not not by chance but grace is our daughter's middle name well really because of everything that happened it but it really it is such a testament to her character and the way she chose to navigate this because it definitely enabled this to also be

1:16:30much more of a catalyst I think for me for so much positive change I mean this is really everything that happened that night with that conversation from that night forward really has been such a catalyst everything prior to that was such a catalyst for so much change really in how I operated how I governed myself how comfortable I felt how honest and authentic and open I was with people because you know I didn't I didn't have anything to hide at that point and so it's it's very much what you see is what you get